NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: JosephSWM on February 10, 2005, 12:14:23 pm
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Vance (or anyone),
Have you heard of this person or know him. Right now he lives in Baltimore, MD. Its not that he might be a fraud (maybe I don't know) but what do you think of what he has written here.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/NativeAmCulturalist/
Joseph
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Joseph,
I have heard a little about him, and have emailed him.
Background -- I have a good friend, Michael Johnson -- whom I trust implicitly. I have met Mike and his family.
http://www.cherokee.org/NewsArchives/September2000Page.asp?ID=12
-- Michael Johnson is the creator of the www.turtletown.org website, and he knows Principle Chief Chad Smith personally. Ya know Chad;'s grandpa was Redbird Smith, with a couple of Stomp Grounds (at least) being named after his family. Mike told me he and Chad have played stickball at Stomps together. . . Michael Johnson is the one that first taught me to mistrust "fake" Cherokee tribes (he and I learned it at the same time really), and he also intruduced me to my first stomp dance.
Michael Johnson wrote the following --
http://www.ewebtribe.com/NACulture/articles/johnsonemail.htm
When I was working with Society of Absentee Cherokee, David Michael Wolfe -- the man you are asking about -- once said some really nasty things about Mike johnson, for being an unenrolled Cherokee yet claimed he was "collaborating" with the enemy -- "the enemy" being members of the Cherokee Nation (there is only one). I responded in kind to David Michael Wolfe. I believe we called each other unpleasant names for a while and that was the end of it, I never heard of him after that. I recall David said something about his once being called a "wannabe" by the then Cherokee Principle Chief Wilma Mankiller. I don't know her exact letter to him.
For these reasons I don't care for David Michael Wolfe. Same reason I don't care for Daren McCathern at Comanche Lodge website, for he has done the same thing and he is not respected in the Cherokee Nation, either. They both have the same opinion of the Cherokee Nation based in Tahlequah, and are very similar in many ways.
I also heard David visited Six Nations, was respected fpr what he said on behalf of some unenrolled peoples in Virginia. But he gave a fake history I think claiming some of these people were Cherokee when they are not.
I have seen his photograph and he is American Indian and is probably trying to some good for unenrolled people in the East. Other than this, I know nothing about wat he has said about Indian Spirituality, or if indeed he is of Cherokee heritage.
He has treated Cherokee in Oklahoma disrespectfully, as has Darren McCathern, but I don't know much more than that. Personally I don't trust either of them and for that reason, but other respectable people do trust both of them. I do not know what he has said about any issues of religion, but I can simply speak of my experiences with him.
I am tryin' to be objective.
vance
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Vance,
Thank you for this reply. I know David Michael Wolfe too and he has said many bad things about me these last few years. I am very hesitant to give my opinion on him and even if I did try to state facts objectively I am not sure I could.
Your posts helps to confirm things for me. Soon I will be serving as one of the commissioners on the Maryland CVommission of Indian Affairs and I will have to deal with him again. He has a need it seems to tell everyone how to do everything.
He does not claim to be a spiritual leader or anything like this. I will say this, he has taken "burning the candle at both ends" to a new level. I could share more in a personal message if you were interested.
Joseph
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Joseph, I have a good friend who thinks a lot of David Michael Wolfe, just as many here respect Darren McCathern.
Sure, feel free to write me, vhawkins@pacer.com .
Too often people argue, and there doesn't seem to be any way around it. Sometimes no one is completely right or wrong, or if one person is, there is no way for the others you correspond with to know it, cause it might be perceived as a personal thing between 2 people . . . and I don't see a reason to bring that up here if at all possible, so i can see your point.
vance
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Thank you Joseph for showing me this link.
http://www.easterndoor.com/11-13/11-13-3.htm
At the link above it says --
"Cherokee David Michael Wolfe, chairman of the Nuyagi Keetowah Society Council of Pomona, N.Y."
I don't believe there is any such thing as a "Nuyagi Keetowah Society of New York".
This separates him from others, if he has made up this "Keetoowah Society" organization, and makes me worry more about my friend who is a friend of David's.
Has anyone ever heard of this group?
vance
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http://www.sandhillindians.net/info.htm I always thought they were NJ
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Thanks for postin' that website.
That website says this group is recognized by the Delaware tribes in Oklahoma and by the Keetoowah Society. hmmm . . .
I really doubt this, but I might be wrong. He mentions Cherokee in NJ in 1711 and implies that they stayed there. They went there to pay their resprects to a Delaware Chief who had just died it appears, but I'd be willin' to bet once the funeral was over they went back home.
If I (or Joe you might wanna do this) can get ahold of any Oklahoma Delaware websites I think I'll email them and see if they've ever heard of this group.
Joe, if Crazysun was a Desciple of David's as you say, this website would explain some of the off the wall comments he was makin' at my site.
Also there is an implication that the Delaware who united with the Cherokee was some kind of a justification for this NJ or NY group having Lenape and Cherokee. But that is silly, because some of the Delaware in Oklahoma who were sorta forced to unite with the Cherokee after the Civil War isn't related at all to people in NJ who they claimed started mixing with Cherokee in 1711 -- that's rediculous.
vance
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Vance,
I may be wrong, from what I have read of histories of our people, the Lenape at that time, 1711, were our enemies? If so, why pay their respects.
My gut feeling is having doubts about this sight, the sand hill Indians site. Look at the name list below from the site. See the name Wolfe.
I could be wrong but there is a real similarity in writing styles between these pages and Wolfe's style, at least the hard copies I have.
Keetoowah / Cherokee Families Keetoowah / Cherokee Families
Monmouth and Burlington Co. Passaic and Sussex Co.
1) Crummel 1) Davis
2) Davis 2) Holloway
3) Holloway 3) Myer
4) Horner 4) Wolfe
5) Richardson
6) Myer
7) Waters
Joseph
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here is one of the Lenape' in Okla. website, the Absentee do not have one. This is the Bartleville group. http://www.delawaretribeofindians.nsn.us/ email:lenape@cowboy.net As far as I know the Keetoowah have to be 1/4. I doubt if these people are. The Lenape in NJ are state recognized. I do not know if these people are or not. You can also check with the CNO.
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Thanks for the website.
Joseph
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I just wrote to the above website and asked for clarification about the Sand Hill Indians. I also sent hem the website address.
Joseph
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There is a Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma based in Anadarko that I ws looking for. I did an internet search and got tons of links -- then I added the word "Anadarko" to the search and bingo, I got the following website --
http://westjersey.org/wj_len.htm
which said --
The two largest:
Delaware Tribe of Indians (Bartlesville, OK)
no website: The Delaware Nation of Western Oklahoma, PO Box 825, Anadarko, OK 73005, 405-247-2448
So there is a phone number to call. I think that area code is wrong -- Our area code used to be 405 but it was changed a few years back to 580 so it's probably 580-247-2448.
vance
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Thanks Frederica,
There may be a few undocumented Delaware in NJ because they came from that part of the country originally, but I doubt that there are any Cherokee, and I doubt this Keetoowah group is for real. If they are for real, well I just learned something. :) If I were a betting man (which I'm not), I'd bet against that, tho.
vance
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Ever see that chili commercial? Goes something like this.
Somebody with a New Jersey accent buys some chili in Texas and the guy looks at the lable and one guy says. "Wait a minute" (I'm paraphrasin'). This chili was made in !New York City! Folks around the camp fire say "?New York City?" Everybody makes an ugly face ane they say "Buy our chili, made by folks in San Antonio who know what good chili tastes like."
I think that is a "Wolfe Brand Chili" commercial, by the way . . .
Something about this New Jersey Keetoowah Society and it's founder made me think of that commercial, not sure what tho, but it'll come to me . . .
vance
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Well, its been almost a year since we posted to this thread.
Wolfe does not claim to be Keetowah anymore. Now he is Echota Cherokee. This is the third kind of Cherokee he has been. First he was a Virginia Cherokee, then Keetowah, and now Echota.
Thats all, not all that interesting.
Joseph
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Yeah Ray, I can.
Joseph
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JosephSWM:
looks like this would be a interesting site to research too.
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Have you noticed that since that overly arrogant, mean spirited person by the name of Ray Whritenour has removed all his posts that other posts within a thread do not.
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Lost Cherokee, I agree. Some research should be done on Medicine Crow as well as Ray W. Let's see what we can dig up.
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Im game if you are Joseph Let's see how many foot prints we can uncover...
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Here's the link to his web again since it got removed
www.medicinecrow.com.au
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Just found this on a yahoo search of DMW. It was at Darren McCathern's site
"This is politics as usual in Indian-land folks. The Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma resisted the Eastern Band's federal recognition years ago, and now they are bosom buddies issuing joint resolutions against other Cherokee seeking State Recognition! Once they belonged to the same federal club, they ganged up on all the state recognized and unrecognized groups in a so-called "Joint Resolution" (of two completely separate Indian governments?) They named all kinds of groups... and right at the top of the list was one individual... David Michael Wolfe of the Echota Cherokees. Read why. "
Sad to say that when you click on the 'Read why' the page is not there anymore. I know I would have liked to have found out why. Here is the link to the entire page that the above paragraph was taken from.
http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=%22David+Michael+Wolfe%22&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&vm=r&fr=yfp-t-501&u=www.prophecykeepers.com/chickamaugacherokee/darrenmccathern.html&w=%22david+michael+wolfe%22&d=LVmZFkVuN0Di&icp=1&.intl=us
As for Medicine Crow, he has no prices listed at his site but you know he must charge for all of it. I especially would assume so after meeting him and getting to know his generally rude disposition. I'll tell ya, a Cherokee? Lenape? Indian doing Reiki in Australia, hmmm?
Joseph
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I found this site which isn't much in the way of anything new. No new dirt on DMW and what he has written, or should I say copied from a million other websites, is nothing earth shattering. All the info there is all over the net. What I am curious about is somthing at the top of the page. This is what is at the top.
by David Michael Wolfe
Virginia Cherokee Descendent Inage.i AniYunwiya
Cherokee American Artist N.G.E.D. and Historian
Graphic also by David Michael Wolfe
What is a N.G.E.D. I know that he does not have a degree. He told me this himself. Four initials sound important so if someone could tell me just what they stand for (my guess is near-GED) it would be helpful.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.powersource.com/cocinc/ceremony/wolves.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.powersource.com/cocinc/ceremony/moons.htm&h=254&w=178&sz=5&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=bB1kRXsrqNDYoM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=78&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522David%2BMichael%2BWolfe%2522%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Dactive%26sa%3DN
Joseph
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One comment asked whether an individual, who is neither enrolled nor certified as an Indian artisan, is permitted under the Act to use the term ``Non-Government Enrolled Descendant'' or its abbreviation, ``NGED,'' in conjunction with the name of an Indian tribe to market his or her work. Considered as a whole, this phrase and its abbreviation are misleading. The capitalization implies some sort of official standing, and the word ``enrolled'' is positive. However, the truth is exactly the opposite: the individual is not officially recognized by, and is not enrolled in, the tribe named.
http://www.artnatam.com/law.html
but near-GED is closer
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So, if I understand this correctly, if DMW tries to sell his arts or crafts and say he is a Native Artist then he is in big trouble. Does the NGED act as a disclaimer. Even still, how is he allowed to call himself a Cherokee American Artist, which he does, and get away with it. Is that reportable? Can he be in trouble? Can we report him?
Joseph
PS. Lost Cherokee, sorry if it seems that I am asking you to do the work and come up with the answer. Just not enough hours in the day or minutes on a library computer. Thanks.
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Is that reportable? Can he be in trouble? Can we report him?
Those are very tricky questions. Mostly depends on who has the better lawyer.
N.G.E.D is a disclaimer in a way,but if it is not made clear what N.G.E.D stands for then he is liable but only if tring to sell something.
All products must be marketed truthfully regarding the Indian heritage and tribal affiliation of the producers, so as not to mislead the consumer. It is illegal to market an art or craft item using the name of a tribe if a member, or certified Indian artisan, of that tribe did not actually create the art or craft item.
http://www.doi.gov/iacb/act.html
With him just calling or claiming to be would be hard to doanything with.Other than maybe getting him to drop some of the titles he is claiming..
But it wouldnt hurt to ask somethat knows a little more about law than me....
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Its been stated that medicine crow charges around $650 a person for his womens weekend retreats or what ever you want to call them.
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Joseph, He has to put Indian, or Cherokee Style on what he sells. He cannot sell as a Cherokee Craftman unless he is enrolled in a Federal or State Recognized Nation or Tribe. That's why a lot of people join the State Tribes, in order to sell. frederica
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Joseph
You have brought up DMW in a number of threads , but , to someone reading through this , it isn't entirely clear what your concern is , except the guy is said to have a personanlity many people find offensive .
It has been mentioned that DMW is the cousin of the Chief of the Sand Hill Band who is enrolled in the CNO , which seems to suggest DMW likely has some Cherokee heritage - or are they cousins because of a shared non native ancestor ?
In the Nuyagi Keetoowah thread , you seemed to think it was OK for unenrolled people of questionable BQ , to advertise themselves as Cherokee , so I am guessing that is not your main concern here . ?
It has been mentioned in the Nuyagi Keetoowah thread , and in thread deleted by Ray Whritenour ( which I still have ) that DMW was apprenticed to the same person , as was your friend Ray Harrell , and they both were laying claim to the same territory and there was some bad feelings between them .
IS DMW selling ceremonies or mixing Cherokee with New Age nonsense ? Does he present himself as a traditional Spiritual leader and mislead people who are too ignorant to know better ? Have you seen things in his personality that could make him dangerous physically or physcologically , if he is trusted in the role he publicly presents himself in ?
It would help if you could explain more about why you are concerned .
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Yes, have I have mentioned DMW in other threads, some of those threads are gone because of Ray W. some have been extensivley been edited, etc.
DMW does not sell ceremonies, as far as I know, but is a fraud and in many ways politically and socially a threat to other Indians. There is not a single group, tribe, organization here in MD that he has not lied or cheated to. I will be posting much more about him. He is a thief and he did steal ceremonial items and this is a fact. He holds no claim on any title with any group.
First he claimed to be Virginia Cherokee, and then he was Keetowah, and then he became Echota Cherokee.
Joseph
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Well it looks like back in 2001 he was a Chickamauga Cherokee
http://idloa.org/guestbook/guestIDLA.html
thats four difernt cherokees he has been.......... wonder how many more.............
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Came across this by accident...maybe someones interested.
www.dowsers.info/toronto/mond0712.htm
If the link doesn't work just go to the Toronto Dowsers site
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He,Tescumseh Brown Eagle is one of the more bizzare. Eric Mound Builder Nation. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1058.0 When I saw "portals" in the ad, I can only guess what is coming. http://www.templeofsakkara.com/sakkarapages.htm
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Thanks for postin' that website.
I really doubt this, but I might be wrong. He mentions Cherokee in NJ in 1711 and implies that they stayed there. They went there to pay their resprects to a Delaware Chief who had just died it appears, but I'd be willin' to bet once the funeral was over they went back home.
Also there is an implication that the Delaware who united with the Cherokee was some kind of a justification for this NJ or NY group having Lenape and Cherokee. But that is silly, because some of the Delaware in Oklahoma who were sorta forced to unite with the Cherokee after the Civil War isn't related at all to people in NJ who they claimed started mixing with Cherokee in 1711 -- that's rediculous.
The Sandhill Band of Cherokee/Lenape has been documented by Herbert Kraft and Mark Raymond Harrington and C.A. Weslager as residing in New Jersey since about 1730. This is apparently a "knock off" of them or a "copy cat" group. The family names jive with the Sandhill names.