NAFPS Forum

General => Research Needed => Topic started by: BuboAhab on July 09, 2009, 01:15:41 am

Title: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 09, 2009, 01:15:41 am
Recently on the Walam Olum Page, Ed Grondine brought up the subject of the Burrows Cave objects.

I do not consider myself an expert on the Burrows Cave. My knowledge of the cave is limited to some correspondence with Russell Burrows over email, and on the research of aboriginal tablets (over 30,000).

I have read that many of the Burrows Cave Stones were made from natural concretions carved with faces. On a recent visit to the Seneca and Iroquois National Museum, there was a display about Concretions representing the heads of their ancestors. Coincidence? Supporting evidence?

I am sure that those familiar with the Burrows Cave stones will be well familiar with the outraged cries of hoax and fraud and all sorts of scandal. These arguments of rumor and deceipt are uninteresting to me because I prefer to look at objects objectively. When reviewing Subjective Vrs Objective views, the objective views are much more scientific.

I am more interested in studying the stones in effort to decipher them as well as learn what we can from them.

For example, site management at the Cahokia Mounds site told me that they spoke with Russell Burrows, who brought in some of the engraved stones. Site managament stated that Russell Burrows was a "weird, strange person". I prefer to stay away from opinions about people and stick to any facts that we can talk about regarding objects.

I do not know where the cave is, but if the area is nearby Olney, then that is almost directly east of the Cahokia Mounds site. The east direction would correspond equinox which was significant to many ancient people.

When I visited the Smithsonian institute, I had a rare opportunity to tour the collections behind the scenes. Among the Illinois artifacts were two tablets from Rockford, illinois. One had a sun face symbol at the top, with 12 figures around the edges of the stone. The tablet bears a close resemblance to an engraved square gold piece from Burrows Cave (the Tomb of the Embarrass River). When Asked about the Burrows Cave Artifact resemblance to the Rockford Sun Tablet, Russell Burrows replied:
The one on the right; gold from Burrows cave is not really gold. A mold was made of each piece of gold, They were each weighed then a cast was made of pure lead and then painted gold. The purpose was to have them for display in Jack Wards museum. They were to have been labeled as replicas and not gold but, they were not. When I found out about it, the museum was closed. The real gold pieces are still in the vaults in the burial crypts and are safe there. Actually the number of artifact recovered is maybe 7000 to 8000 or 9000. Nothing was removed from any of the burial crypts and everything is still there.-Russ Burrows"

Otherwise, I noticed a similarity between the shape of Burrows Cave Relics and the shape of border stones from Iraq called Kuddrus. Kuddrus date to around 1500BC, which would be roughly correct for the linguistic forms found on the Burrows Cave pieces.
http://www.72languages.com/burrowscave.php

Kuddrus Can be compared with burrows cave stones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudurru

Any Comments are welcome.

Vince Barrows
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 10, 2009, 03:00:23 am
BuboAhab -

It is a shame to see your excellent observation on the Piqua tablet and your observations on wampum use compromised by this fraud.

Objectively, you've had your time wasted by con men.

When pressed about these, Burrows has come up with different stories for some 30 years now. When cornered on one story, he has come up with another, wasting many peoples' time.

The facts, and those are FACTS of Burrows/Collin et al., demonstrate fraud,  though those responsible for the manufacture of these frauds have not been caught red handed at it yet. Until criminal complaints are filed, and a criminal investigation begun, that is where things will stand, baring a death bed confession, or a dumped wife/girlfriend/boyfriend or irate neighbor spilling the beans.

In this case, the evidence requires the Burrows Cave "artifacts" to be labeled a FRAUD until proven otherwise. Which would be an easy thing for Burrows to do, were it not for the fact that they are frauds.

As far as any similarity in symbols with anything else goes, the late Barry Fell pointed out that whoever was manufacturing these frauds stole from his work,  and he called them "a bunch of crooks". You will learn nothing from these frauds besides where they lifted their symbols from.

If you wish to contact me, I have documented the histories of the ring of con men who promoted this fraud.

(Educated Indian, I believe you already have enough evidence in hand to move the Burrows Cave "artifacts" to FRAUD. You can sum it up better than I can.)

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas, and
Amazing Stories - a guide inside the fringe

PS - My offer to Oestreicher for a trade still stands. As does the mention of Dr. Ward at Pendleton.

Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 15, 2009, 06:23:59 pm
The con men behind this fraud are convinced:

1) No one cares
2) No one is interested
3) No one has the guts to call them down - no one will call them for fear of lawsuits
4) That when caught, nothing will happen to them.

Whatever may be said about them, its not so much that they're audacious, as they think their victims are  stupid. The greater the intelligence of their victim, the bigger the thrill they get in the con.

Well, people of Native American heritage are all around them, Bubo.

They're doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants; same occupations as other people. They don't all work for casinos or the BIA or making mocasins. They also work for the FBI, DEA, other federal agencies, and closer to home, in both state and county law enforcement.

In other words, they're surrounded.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 15, 2009, 10:34:53 pm
I am sure that those familiar with the Burrows Cave stones will be well familiar with the outraged cries of hoax and fraud and all sorts of scandal. These arguments of rumor and deceipt are uninteresting to me because I prefer to look at objects objectively. When reviewing Subjective Vrs Objective views, the objective views are much more scientific.

Yes, Bubo, they are familiar. But "the outraged cries of hoax and fraud and all sorts of scandal" is the old line used to refer to journalist Rick Flavin's expose of Frank Joseph Collin and Russell Burrows.

The new line is "rant", which is used by these con artists to refer to my own expose of them, "Amazing Stories". That's the whole sheband, running from cult leader Richard Kieninger, to his business partner David Hatcher Childress (World Explorer Magazine), to Frank Joseph Collin (of Skokie march infamy), To Russell Burrows (Collin's jailer in Pontiac), to Wayne May of "Ancient American" (our confused Mormon bishop who promotes Richard Kieninger's cult), to Duncan Roads of NEXUS (Muhamar Qadifi's man in Melbourne), to Herman Hegge (Frontier Sciences in Amsterdam) student of Hitler's ties to the occult.

Judging from the advertisements in his magazine, Doug Kenyon (Atlantis Rising) is deeply involved with this ring as well.

Some of the moderators here at NAFPS have read "Amazing Stories", and enjoyed it :
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1538.0

It is also know to others as well, and more than a few are not happy.

As a "scholar" of these "tablets" you have told us much, and you can tell use much much more.

"Nothing was removed from any of the burial crypts and everything is still there.-Russ Burrows"

Well now, since "tablets" were shown and represented as being from the burial crypts to the AAAPF, then Burrows lied to them and you're repeating his lies here at NAFPS.

We do not lie.

E.P. Grondine
"Man and Impact in the Americas"
and
"Amazing Stories"




Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 16, 2009, 01:46:04 am
[Carried over from the Walam Olum Site, Because the majority of this pertains to the BC topic and Not the WO]

Yes, I noticed his request, and I noticed your earlier statement of having seen 30,000 tablets. The number of real tablets is far less. Thus I'm fairly certain you have seen all of Mt. Burrow's and his associates forgeries. Of course you may have made a mistatement or simply made a typo...

30,000 is and old tally, the correct updated number is 45479 engraved stones, and this list is detailed on my Entableture study.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/entableture.htm

But given your own nature as revealed by the scope, intensity, and range of your search, and the lack of judgment with which you handle evidence, and their nearness to you, I am pretty certain that you have made your way to them, as we can see immediately below.

“Lack of judgment” to you seems to be your way of objecting to my complete list of tablets. You would prefer an incomplete list with selective sampling based on what someone else said?  So If I remove from the complete list anything that someone else at one time or another said something bad about, how much would be left? For sure it would eliminate most of these examples, including many which were found by professionals in archaeological digs. It would also eliminate any engraved script, as long as it was found in the area of the United States because “Indians had no written language”. You see, Paradigms show that opinions change over time, and at one time nearly every unusual relic has had negative opinions expressed about it by one person or another. Leaving out these examples because of what someone once said is not good science.
Sorry to ruin your suspicion but you are wrong that I have made my way to the burrows cave “con-men”.

Once again, you leave out the key information. Which Chief, which people, and which river?
The key information was included in the statement.  Which Chief it was by 1804 certainly was influenced widely by European invasion, and the evacuations from native lands.
You can find out here: “but I will focus on an encounter that began October 8, 1804, and continued for five days at the Sahnish villages along the banks of the Missouri and Grand Rivers in present-day South Dakota.”
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/wicazo_sa_review/v019/19.1bird.html

The key point here is that either Mr. Burrows and his associates have desecrated a major burial, as they would have us believe, or they have been manufacturing fake NDN history.

In your judgment, Bubo Ahab, which is it?

You have already indicated your opinion that I have “lack of judgment”, so why do you ask about my judgment? That would be a contradiction. However, In response to your question, I think several of the artifacts that were photographed from the cave resemble other artifacts that I have seen in the Smithsonian Institute vaults. From my research (J.G. Frazier), the description matches ancestral shrine / storehouse for ancestral stones.

Because of the time of separation. You may not have noticed my mention in this thread of common Great Turtle traditions, and very early common ancestry.
Great traditions cause time separations to be irrelevant. (They can be held for thousands of years without changing a bit. )

While I thank you for calling to our attention to these engravings, why are you referring to them as "Ketika figurines"?
Because that is what Carl Schuster and Edmund Carpenter in their Book “social Symbolism of Tribal art” called them. Later I found out that the linguistic meanings are quite interesting.

I also want to thank you for your excellent images of the tablets from Cahokia.
And your reports of the desecration which went on there.

Your welcome. However, the desecration of America’s largest mound is something I wish that I did not witness. Hopefully awareness will help this not ever happen again.

But Bubo Ahab, its simply the lack of boundaries, the way you lump it all together, that is your deficit, in my opinion.
With all due respect, you lumped a lot of information together in your book, putting it all into one cover. Is that a deficit or strength?


I request that no one's posts are edited, leave them as they are; and then lock this thread.

I do not want this thread locked.

Me neither, so lets try to carry on a civil conversation please.


I am fairly certain that Bubo has run into him and knows him quite well. If he searches into his soul, he will be able to identify him to us.


Sorry to disappoint you but I really don’t know who it is you are looking for.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 16, 2009, 02:24:34 am
The key point here is that either Mr. Burrows and his associates have desecrated a major burial, as they would have us believe, or they have been manufacturing fake NDN history.

In your judgment, Bubo Ahab, which is it?


You have already indicated your opinion that I have “lack of judgment”, so why do you ask about my judgment? That would be a contradiction. However, In response to your question, I think several of the artifacts that were photographed from the cave resemble other artifacts that I have seen in the Smithsonian Institute vaults. From my research (J.G. Frazier), the description matches ancestral shrine / storehouse for ancestral stones.

So then in your opinion Mr. Burrows and his associates should be immediately arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail.

That's a good plan, I like it. Let's take them at their word, and see how fast they change it when behind bars.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 16, 2009, 12:55:49 pm
So then in your opinion Mr. Burrows and his associates should be immediately arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail.
That's a good plan, I like it. Let's take them at their word, and see how fast they change it when behind bars.

In my opinion those responsible for destroying Monks Mound with backhoes should be arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail. If people had respect for graves, then this would not have happened.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/
http://www.scribd.com/Marburg72
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/monks_mound.htm
http://www.world-pyramids.com/atr/usa/monkmound.html
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/
http://www.moundabout.com/IL.htm
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 17, 2009, 03:06:56 am
So then in your opinion Mr. Burrows and his associates should be immediately arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail.
That's a good plan, I like it. Let's take them at their word, and see how fast they change it when behind bars.

In my opinion those responsible for destroying Monks Mound with backhoes should be arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail. If people had respect for graves, then this would not have happened.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/
http://www.scribd.com/Marburg72
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/monks_mound.htm
http://www.world-pyramids.com/atr/usa/monkmound.html
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/
http://www.moundabout.com/IL.htm

Monks Mound was not "destroyed", Bubo, though the destruction of that part of its remains was indeed a travesty. I had thought that those responsible for it had already been fired; if not, then I am sorry to hear that.

But you're evading the question by trying to change the subject, which is Russell Burrows and his associates, and their fate.

Over on the Walam Olum thread, you mentioned your database of "tablets".
Here at NAFPS, we have our own database; it contains con men; some of them the most despicable con men in the nation, people who steal spirituality.

Over on the Walam Olum thread, I mentioned a movie about a young man who became one of the 20th century's "greatest" con men. Some thoughts about con men have come to me, and I wish to share them.

First off, you have the person with no empathy, and thus no conscious.
These people will practice their techniques of deceit for years, until they have perfected them. Often running the same con over and over, and that's why the history of these people is so important here at NAFPS.

Second, we should mention the minor prankster, whose prank gets away from him, and takes on a life of its own.

Third, we should mention the con man who will con for money or sex or drugs.

Fourth, we should mention the con man (or woman, I don't want to exclude the "fairer" sex, as they have their share as well) who will run different hoaxes multiple times. Pathological liars.

Fifth, you have those who can not differentiate between what they do and what has been done. This is a peculiar type of brain malfunction. Some would simply call it insanity, but then I suppose all of these behaviors are.

Sixth, you have the person who cons to carry out some noble cause. Sometimes these people even manage to deceive themselves.

Seventh, you have the kind of person who enjoys playing people for fools.
The more intelligent his victim, the greater his pleasure in his "accomplishment".

Bubo, I note that you spent a lot of time and effort on your database of "tablets".

We spend a lot of time and effort on our database of frauds.

Thanks for your help.




 
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 19, 2009, 01:40:51 pm
Okay so you have all those types of cons.

Still, I read in "Ancient American Magazine" that the black colored concretions were proved to be from local sources by Scott Wolter.  So, we can be certain that the stones were manufactured locally.

Now where in there does it include a description of the specific scenario of the Burrows Cave?
The story of discovery: A man was hiking, fell into a rock trap-door entrance, and finds a tomb. A tomb that contains thousands of concretions with faces carved on them. All of the stones are unique, and include ancient languages.  Do con-men take the time to hike? They would not be making money while hiking? Do con-men take the time to study ancient languages? They wouldnt be making any money. Unfortunately, con men would be better off in Auto sales or at a nursing home.
 
On a recent visit to the Seneca and Iroquois National Museum, there was a display that stated concretions represent the heads of their ancestors. Coincidence? Supporting evidence?

And What about the Votive Axes found in Burrows Cave? They are an extremely rare form. Were the examples from Burrows Cave ever compared with other Votive Axes?
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 20, 2009, 08:32:56 pm
So then in your opinion Mr. Burrows and his associates should be immediately arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail.

That's a good plan, I like it. Let's take them at their word, and see how fast they change it when behind bars.
 
The problem is that we need to find an insane archaeologist to declare the "tablets" legitimate artifacts, as no sane one seems willing to do it.

Perhaps you may be of help here as well.

Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 21, 2009, 01:50:43 am
According to what I have read, Mr. Burrows and "his associates" reported the find to archaeologists, who did not express interest.

Why are you making obvious implications about sanity?  Is there any hard evidence? Hear-say and name calling are not evidence.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 21, 2009, 04:25:43 pm
Why are you making obvious implications about sanity?  Is there any hard evidence? Hear-say and name calling are not evidence.

Either NAGPRA kicks in, and Mr Burrows and his associates go to jail,
or they are manufacturing fake NDN history.

You're arguing for the first option.


Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 21, 2009, 11:00:16 pm
Hi Bubo -

It appears M'si Manitou has heard our prayers: the archaeologist we need to jail Mr Burrows and his associates under NAGPRA has arrived right here at NAFPS:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2221.0

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 22, 2009, 03:15:07 am
I must have missed your point. Where in that link does it mention the subject of this forum? And why does Grondine keep putting words into my mouth.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 22, 2009, 10:25:12 pm
And why does Grondine keep putting words into my mouth.

Bubo, where did I do that?



Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 23, 2009, 01:56:46 am
"Bubo, where did I do that?"
1. when you stated that I am arguing for the first opinion
2. when you said "our prayers"
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 23, 2009, 03:33:20 am
"Bubo, where did I do that?"
1. when you stated that I am arguing for the first opinion
2. when you said "our prayers"

Bubo, either
1) the Burrows Cave artifacts are real, and Mr Burrows and his associates are guilty of massive violation of NAGPRA and should be thrown in jail immediately, and bonding denied
or
2) the Burrows Cave artifacts are fakes, and Mr Burrows and his associates are guilty of manufacturing fake NDN history

You chose 1.

I never thought that you would include yourself in the "our" in "our prayers", and I am pretty certain that no one here thought that either.




Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: bls926 on July 23, 2009, 05:41:40 am
And why does Grondine keep putting words into my mouth.

Bubo, where did I do that?






He does that a lot. Always accusing people of putting words in his mouth.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 23, 2009, 02:44:32 pm
http://www.lindapages.com/calhoun/russ.htm

Readers can see the above link for more information.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 23, 2009, 09:26:19 pm
http://www.lindapages.com/calhoun/russ.htm

Readers can see the above link for more information.

Of course, a quick search on "Rick Flavin" and "Frank Joseph Collin" presents
a far different picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin

http://www.flavinscorner.com/collin.htm

Would someone here please take Flavin's published information and update the wikipedia entry?

As a quick laboratory examination could establish whether the pieces are legitimate or not, who are the "private collectors", Bubo?

By the way, the date for Beringia being open in this link is wrong.
But then that is incidental.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 24, 2009, 12:20:06 am
1. Wikipedia is NOT reliable.
2. The second website is used to divert attention from the study of the stones, and throw lots of profanity into the mix.  Some from this group think along these lines. Profanity & Scholarly papers do not go together.

Ancestor Shrines is a more productive patch for research. Ancestor shrines were first reported in Southern Illinois in the DeSoto chronicles of 1543.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 24, 2009, 12:28:14 am
Ancestor Shrines is a more productive patch for research. Ancestor shrines were first reported in Southern Illinois in the DeSoto chronicles of 1543.

Okay, Bubo, let's assume these are real and that they came from "Ancestor Shrines". Then they need to be returned to the decedents.

Now, who are the private collectors?

You have surely gathered that information in your study of tablets.



Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 25, 2009, 03:08:26 am
Yes they should be returned to the decedents, if we only knew now who are they? In my opinion, The DeSoto Chronicles account of the ancestor shrine of The Pacaha was the same one - what tribal name was this region later assigned to? After Pacaha, the DeSoto expedition went to "Quiguate and Cologia" - a possible cognate of Cahokia.
I do not have and have not ever had any of the burrows cave relics and also do not know what they sold for.
For a photographic collection of the stones you may want to try
http://users.ohiohills.com/gakarshner/

Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 26, 2009, 07:22:03 pm
Yes they should be returned to the decedents, if we only knew now who are they? In my opinion, The DeSoto Chronicles account of the ancestor shrine of The Pacaha was the same one - what tribal name was this region later assigned to? After Pacaha, the DeSoto expedition went to "Quiguate and Cologia" - a possible cognate of Cahokia.
I do not have and have not ever had any of the burrows cave relics and also do not know what they sold for.
For a photographic collection of the stones you may want to try
http://users.ohiohills.com/gakarshner/

Hi Bubo  -

Casqui was probably Vincennes:
http://www.floridahistory.com/indiana.html,

site of Sugar Loaf and Pyramid Mounds. NOTE the bison skulls; Vincennes was the location of bisons' ford across the Wabash River on their route between Big Salt Lick and Kaskasia on the Mississipi River.

Of course none of this is certain, note also the large city located at Harrisburg, Illinois by this reconstruction of DeSoto's route:
http://www.floridahistory.com/illinois.html#SouthernIllinois

Given the nearness of the site of Cahokia (Twakanhah), the peculiar thing here is the lack of the mention of it to DeSoto by the peoples.

And of course none of this is relevant to Burrows fraud ring. Returning from this diversion to the subject at hand:

Bubo, where did you get your information on the Burrows Cave artifacts for your database? Who did you get it from, and when did you get it?

For a list of some of the people whose money was taken by this fraud ring, see:
http://www.flavinscorner.com/falling.htm

[I particularly enjoy the parts in Flavin's account where Burrows participates in the Slack Farm looting and other looting and refers to Native Americans as "prairie niggers". Gosh gee, thanks. If any of you here at NAFPS have any contacts with writers with major Native American press, I have some research on this ring I'd like to sell. Also, if any NAFPSter wish to contact Barnes and Nobles or Borders management (whether national or local) and let them know what you think about this, then please do.]

There are also some more serious matters are involved with this ring than simply people being swindled out of their time and money on a national scale.

Bubo, do you know anything about John Moss and his "suicide"?
[hmmm... "a chemist bouncing back and forth from the States to British Columbia..." Yeah, Rick "Something was wrong".]


E.P. Grondine
"Amazing Stories"
...and now for the rest of the story...
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 26, 2009, 11:32:20 pm
The ancestor shrine that was later known as "Burrows Cave" was defiled in the Desoto Chronicles (p398).  You show the Ancestor shrine to be near Vincennes, Indiana - that is near the location of the Burrows Cave.

The account from the DeSoto Chronicles:
"...his enemies had the boldness to enter his temple and burial place contemptuously, they not only entered it, but committed all the ignominious and offensive affronts that they could, because they pillaged everything that the temple contained in the way of riches, ornamets, spoils, and trophies that had been gathered at the expense of their own ancestors. (footnote: Considering the pivotal importance of the chief's hereditary line to the wall being of a chiefdom, the defilement of Pacaha's ancestor shrine would have been a prominent goal of the Casqui raiders.)  They knocked down on the ground all the wooden chests that served as sepulchers, and for their own satisfaction and revenge and to affront their enemies, they threw out onto the ground the bones of the dead bodies that were in the chests.  Not content withy throwing them on the ground, the stamped and kicked them in an excess of contempt and disdain... In short, nothing they could think of was left undone"

And it is not surprising that your your name for Cahokia (Twakanhah) does not match DeSoto's name. It is common that place names do change through time (especially in this time period). Where did you get the name Twakanhah?

How about reading the DeSoto Chronicles description of visiting Cahokia (Cologia and Quiguate) before claiming a lack of any mention?

As I have stated before, the information on the Burrows cave discovery was from Russell Burrows in an email.

You enjoy Flavin's Corner? That is sad.

No, I never heard of John Moss.




 
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 27, 2009, 02:51:55 am
The ancestor shrine that was later known as "Burrows Cave" was defiled in the Desoto Chronicles (p398).  You show the Ancestor shrine to be near Vincennes, Indiana - that is near the location of the Burrows Cave.

The account from the DeSoto Chronicles:
"...his enemies had the boldness to enter his temple and burial place contemptuously, they not only entered it, but committed all the ignominious and offensive affronts that they could, because they pillaged everything that the temple contained in the way of riches, ornamets, spoils, and trophies that had been gathered at the expense of their own ancestors. (footnote: Considering the pivotal importance of the chief's hereditary line to the wall being of a chiefdom, the defilement of Pacaha's ancestor shrine would have been a prominent goal of the Casqui raiders.)  They knocked down on the ground all the wooden chests that served as sepulchers, and for their own satisfaction and revenge and to affront their enemies, they threw out onto the ground the bones of the dead bodies that were in the chests.  Not content with throwing them on the ground, the stamped and kicked them in an excess of contempt and disdain... In short, nothing they could think of was left undone"

Bubo, you're mistaking your own views for mine. Pacaha's temple and burial place for the nobility would not have been in a cave. But this is simply a diversion on your part.

And it is not surprising that your your name for Cahokia (Twakanhah) does not match DeSoto's name. It is common that place names do change through time (especially in this time period). Where did you get the name Twakanhah?

It's the Five Nation's name, not "mine". See Appendix A of my book
As to what other names "The City" might have had, I would not care to speculate here, now, as it would be a diversion.

As I have stated before, the information on the Burrows cave discovery was from Russell Burrows in an email.

So all of your information on the Burrow's Cave "objects" in your database came from straight from Burrows?

You enjoy Flavin's Corner? That is sad.

Now why exactly is that "sad", Bubo?

One sad part for me was that Flavin failed in his effort to expose the ring,
and that he did not manage to learn its full extent nor how it functioned.

It is sad that while Flavin reached out to the Native American media, he and they had limited success in getting national play on the story. This is not only a US national ring, it is an international ring, one that really needs to be exposed. It still functions as a result of that failure.

It is sad how many people this ring has hurt badly.

Finally, it is also sad how badly this fraud has hurt legitimate scholars researching contacts, people such as Flavin himself.

No, I never heard of John Moss.

Then you should ask around.

Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 28, 2009, 03:05:32 am
"Pacaha's temple and burial place for the nobility would not have been in a cave."
If not in a cave, then where? The only ancestor shrine known in that area was in a cave - and this is not a diversion.

"So all of your information on the Burrow's Cave "objects" in your database came from straight from Burrows?"
Yes and what the email said is:
"The one on the right; gold from Burrows cave is not really gold. A mold  was made of each piece of gold, They were each weighed then a cast was made of pure lead and then painted gold. The purpose was to have them for display in Jack Wards museum. They were to have been labeled as replicas and not gold but, they were not. When I found out about it, the museum was closed.Are you from the Rockford area?
The real gold pieces are still in the vaults in the burial crypts and are safe there.
Actually the number of artifact recovered is maybe 7000 to 8000 or 9000.
Nothing was removed from any of the burial crypts and everything is still there.
Russ"

"Now why exactly is that "sad", Bubo? "
Be weary of Rick Flavin. He has a tendency to make blistering criticism with no basis, as shown by his long history of ranting on his website. His disclaimers of profanity and hate speech pretty much sum it up.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 28, 2009, 04:25:07 pm
The only ancestor shrine known in that area was in a cave...

Once again you leave out the key information, Bubo.
What ancestor shrine is that?

So all of your information on Burrow's "objects" in your database came from straight from Burrows?

Yes...

Glad we cleared that up.

Now why exactly is that "sad", Bubo?
Be weary of Rick Flavin. He has a tendency to make blistering criticism with no basis, as shown by his long history of ranting on his website. His disclaimers of profanity and hate speech pretty much sum it up.

Standard tactics, Bubo: Con men usually make the same kind of claims here at NAFPS when they're caught, and everyone here has had the same kind of tactic pulled on them. We've seen it before, and we've seen those claims  repeated by those they've conned.

Flavin set out detailed evidence of this particular fraud. Exposing these con men is not "hate speech".

Flavin's frustration at not being able to expose them is understandable. They've enjoyed financial success with their con, while he had no financial success writing articles exposing them, but instead has had his effort drain him and affect his personal life. As the con men put it, "No one cares."

[If anyone here at NAFPS is in touch with any Native American media, this story needs more coverage, as every Barnes and Noble and Borders in the country is being used to perpetrate this fraud.]

Flavin's accounts of the tactics they used on him are really classic. It is unfortunate that he did not discover the rest of this ring, and that his efforts to expose them met with so little success. But then the ring is so large, and Flavin's resources so limited. He worked alone, out of his own pocket.

The part of particular interest in Flavin's account is where he was conned by the fellow in contact with the "chemist moving between the US and British Columbia". This is the same reason why John Moss's "suicide" is so interesting.

Have you learned anymore about John Moss yet, Bubo?

Why don't you tell us something about yourself, Bubo? We still don't know when you began your research, nor why.


Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 28, 2009, 05:22:02 pm
"What ancestor shrine is that?"
Obviously, it is today called Burrows Cave. Are you following along that it was documented in the DeSoto Chronicles?

"Glad we cleared that up."
What is your point?

One type of Diversion is Ad-hominem. That means attacking the person that says something, instead of focusing on the material presented. My view of objects is Objective - not subjective views.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 28, 2009, 06:22:31 pm
What ancestor shrine is that?
Obviously, it is today called Burrows Cave. Are you following along that it was documented in the DeSoto Chronicles?

Bubo, no cave was mentioned in the DeSoto Chronicles. Mississippian and coastal Algonquin ancestor shrines were above ground.

Glad we cleared that up.
What is your point?

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

What you haven't told us is the reason for your interest in this. When did you begin your research, and why?

One type of Diversion is Ad-hominem. That means attacking the person that says something, instead of focusing on the material presented. My view of objects is Objective - not subjective views.

I am familiar with ad-hominem attacks, having been subjected to many of them during my research on recent comet and asteroid impacts.

But my view of this ring of con men is all too objective.

E.P. Grondine
"Man and Impact in the Americas", and
"Amazing Stories"

Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 29, 2009, 02:05:32 am
Bubo, no cave was mentioned in the DeSoto Chronicles. Mississippian and coastal Algonquin ancestor shrines were above ground.
The location is referred to only as "it" and "ancestor shrine". Your interpretation of an above-ground location offers no material evidence found to support that statement. If an above ground ancestor shrine was found in that area, your statement would hold merit. However, the only ancestor shrine in that area was in a cave, and that is known as Burrows cave today.

"Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which."

You are wrong on both counts. I am not a victim nor participant in a fraud ring.

"What you haven't told us is the reason for your interest in this. When did you begin your research, and why?"
The topic of this forum is the Burrows Cave, not me. If you really want to know you can contact me off list.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 29, 2009, 03:28:20 am
[i}Bubo, no cave was mentioned in the DeSoto Chronicles. Mississippian and coastal Algonquin ancestor shrines were above ground.[/i]
The location is referred to only as "it" and "ancestor shrine". Your interpretation of an above-ground location offers no material evidence found to support that statement. If an above ground ancestor shrine was found in that area, your statement would hold merit. However, the only ancestor shrine in that area was in a cave, and that is known as Burrows cave today.

Hell, Bubo, they haven't even located the city, little less the remains of the ancestor shrine. And none of this changes the fact that both Mississippian and coastal Algonquin peoples had above ground ancestor shrines. They were not caves, and to my knowledge no one used caves as ancestor shrines.

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

You are wrong on both counts. I am not a victim nor participant in a fraud ring.


You are either an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're of its willing victims. The only question is which.

What you haven't told us is the reason for your interest in this. When did you begin your research, and why?
The topic of this forum is the Burrows Cave, not me. If you really want to know you can contact me off list.

Well, since you also tried to promote Norse/Algonquin hyper diffusion hypothesis at the wikipedia Walam Olum discussion, I could ask Doug Weller, and perhaps he could give me his version of your life/or interests.

What led you to the Norse-Algonquin hyper diffusion hypothesis, and when?

Obviously you have spent a long time working on it.

Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 29, 2009, 11:24:40 am
"they haven't even located the city, little less the remains of the ancestor shrine. And none of this changes the fact that both Mississippian and coastal Algonquin peoples had above ground ancestor shrines. They were not caves, and to my knowledge no one used caves as ancestor shrines."

Wrong - Caves were commonly used by the Missisippian and Coastal Algonquian peoples. In southern Illinois there are three other caves that were elaborately decorated with petroglyphs - inside and out. These include Korondo, The Throne, and Tooth cave.

Please stop your personal attacks against me Mr. Grondine.

Obviously the Norse hypothesis was brought up in discussion by Myron Payne's citation.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 29, 2009, 08:51:12 pm
Wrong - Caves were commonly used by the Missisippian and Coastal Algonquian peoples. In southern Illinois there are three other caves that were elaborately decorated with petroglyphs - inside and out. These include Korondo, The Throne, and Tooth cave.

Bubo, has anyone else other than you ever examined Korondo, Throne and Tooth caves?

In any case, a few glyphs or pictoglyphs in any cave are not an "ancestor shrine"; we have both descriptions and drawings of ancestor shrines.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: educatedindian on July 29, 2009, 11:22:57 pm

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

.

That's a pretty strong accusation, esp the first half. If you accuse someone of being a criminal, you need to provide proof.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on July 30, 2009, 08:14:01 pm

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

.

That's a pretty strong accusation, esp the first half. If you accuse someone of being a criminal, you need to provide proof.

Hi educated indian -

I hope Vincent has not threatened to sue you or NAFPS. As you can see from Flavin's account of Burrows and his associates, that is a standard tactic for that bunch - they are audacious.

Given Vincent Jay Barrow's strong endorsement of their fraud, that either leaves him an active participant OR a willing victim.

There is an  "OR" in that statement. I go with "willing victim" so far.

But in Vincent's case, looking on the interent for the caves he cited, one is left wondering...

Vincent, what the hell have you been doing in these caves? Who's been going with you?

On the subject of graves, I sure would like to find John Moss's.

E.P. Grondine
Amazing Stories


Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on July 31, 2009, 06:01:26 pm
For others interested, caves are often used as ancestor shrines as shown in the information cited about Ancestor Shrines. (J.G. Frazier : http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/entableture.htm )
It is clearly described about the Ancestor Shrine at the BC location in DeSoto Chronicles. Grondine sidesteps this fact by saying it must have been above ground with no evidence to support that opinion, and then claims that we do not know the location. Even though Grondine says the DeSoto Chronicles Ancestor shrine was at Vincennes, Indiana.  

I have many Issues with Grondines argument:
Grondine: Stop making false accusations of lawsuits. Stop make accusations of criminal behavor, without basis. Stop your accusations of victimizing, without any evidence. Stop using my name without permission.
Yet, Grondine thinks I will reveal more information about the southern Illinois Caves to him after all these insults and accusations?

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Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: educatedindian on August 01, 2009, 08:42:01 pm

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

.

That's a pretty strong accusation, esp the first half. If you accuse someone of being a criminal, you need to provide proof.

Hi educated indian -

I hope Vincent has not threatened to sue you or NAFPS. As you can see from Flavin's account of Burrows and his associates, that is a standard tactic for that bunch - they are audacious....


No, there has been no threats to sue or other threats either. I'm simply asking you what I'd ask anyone else for.

If there's proof of someone being a criminal, then we must insist you show proof. Otherwise it's an irresponsible accusation.

And if there is a law being broken, why haven't you gone to the authorities?
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on August 03, 2009, 02:27:56 pm
And if there is a law being broken, why haven't you gone to the authorities?

Hi educated indian -

As you know, there is no federal or state law against manufacturing NDN history or artifacts, just as there are no laws against many of the spiritual frauds reported here at NAFPS. Thus the reason for NAFPS.

There is no law against being made a victim of these frauds either.

The only laws that apply are commercial fraud laws, and that requires the victims to press civil suit, which they seldom do.

Now perhaps I have not shown Bubo's hypothesis that the superior Algonquin people carried their advanced culture and language to the backward Aryan Norse people sufficient respect...

but that would not change the fact that the Burrown's cave objects are frauds, and will continue to remain frauds no matter how much legitimate material Bubo surrounds them with.

The evidence of this fraud is too large for a short e-mail. You've read "Amazing Stories", and if anyone else here wants a copy of it, then PM me.

But for this specific mattter of Burrrows and Collin the link given above to Flavin's article should set the matter straight.



Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on August 03, 2009, 03:27:40 pm
Bubo -

I've asked you for evidence of caves used as ancestor shirines.

You respond with a page showing legitimate tokens of rank (the Cahokia "tablets"),
and Andaste/RedOchre/Glacial Kame palettes for tatoo pigment or blow gun tip poison preparation (other "tablets"),
and the Burrow's frauds, along with bad place name work.

In my book, which you referred to, I passed on Le Page du Pratz's and others descriptions of Mississippian ancestor shrines.
The coastal Algonquin ancestor shrines are well known from the colonists descriptions of them.
Hudson's work is now the standard for De Soto's route.

Loooking for the caves you mentioned , I found Marburg72, which appears to be you as well. "Vincent Jay Barrows" of Louisianna, I presume?

Looking at your images...

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on August 07, 2009, 03:23:18 pm
I wonder if the language of the Indian Craft Act might apply in the Burrows "artifact"  case, even though it was not written for this purpose. I am not familiar with its specifics, nor with who enforces it.

Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on August 20, 2009, 02:52:07 am
Ed, you still have not offered any evidence that the "burrows cave" relics are "frauds".

Please provide proof and not just opinion.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on August 20, 2009, 11:02:15 pm
Let's start at the top, Vince:
"3. Ed's opinion of "frauds" is based on no factual evidence."

Several of the moderators here have read my expose of the entire ring's operations. For those who haven't, here's Rick Flavin reporting on that small part of it, as much as you want:
http://www.flavinscorner.com/twist.htm

And yeah, its all true, I re-checked it myself. And no one can accuse Rick of having an anti-diffusionist bias.

Do you know where John Moss died, Vince? For that matter, the chemist who moved between the US and British Columbia is also of interest.

So, Vince, did Burrows plunder a site, or did he manufacture fake Indian artifacts? The first should fall under NAGPRA, the second under the Crafts act (I hope). Then of course there's the matters of the Slack Farm looting, and the outright commercial frauds, should anyone care to bring civil suits.

"1. Norse - Algonquian cognates were covered by Sherwin."

Cognates can be illusory, Vince, particularly for those who want to see them.

There's no artifacts showing any early links. Getting down to it, the idea that superior Aryan Norse educated the ignorant Algonquin is racist in the extreme.

And as a matter of fact, when the Europeans showed up around 350 CE, the Three Fires took off for the west.

"2. Read the copper trade routes in Lori's Presentation on page 2, then see poverty point, Wulfing plates, copper plates, etc."

The source Lori used for her presentation did not even know of Copper Hill Tennessee copper, Vince.

Poverty Point copper most likely came from there, along with other minerals.

Yes, the Mississippian peoples valued copper plates. Besides Spiro, you can see that massively at Etowah, near to Copper Hill, Tennesee.

But mixing real artifacts with Burrows' frauds does no good, for if there was a massive copper trade from Lake Superior down the Mississippi River the Natchez tradition keepers would have remembered it, Vince, and they did not.

"4. Geological Caves in southern Illinois were far more common that Ed would have us know."

Has anybody seen any of the specific caves you mentioned except for you, Vince? Even if they have, that's a long way from showing that they were ancestor shrines. And an even further distance from Burrows' entirely imaginary cave.

"5. Welch Butterfly is authentic. And someone will probably take another close look at the cast of the relic and prove its importance as a colonial Mayan engraving, just as I have done."

I doubt your opinion on that. My guess is that the inscribing tools were in English units. Further, the tool marks left by metal versus stone tools are distinctly different. If you have any expertise in this area you have not mentioned it to us.

And by the way, the classic Maya emerge about 4,000 years after the 4,300 BC date you cited for the Welch Butterfly.

"6. Hudson's map is far from complete. Did De Soto have a GPS device, Ed?"

Personally, Vince, I have not heard of a major Mississippian complex at Harrisburg. The Bison skulls at Casqui indicate either Vincennes or Kaskaskia for its location, both of which are on their migration route.

But then you have to show how your proposed route matches the known itineraries, and further a site for Pacaha, with El Dorado (Cahokia) to the west.

If Kaskaskia was Casqui, as you posit, then El Dorado could not have been Cahokia, as you also posit. The itineraries rule it out.

"7. Ignoring evidence seems to be the trend here, and as this thread has devolved into No-its-not, Yes-it-is, We should leave it at that."

I'm sorry, Vince, but we can't leave it at that, as Burrows et al committed one crime or the other, and from all indications several other civil crimes as well, including misrepresenting military service. Leaving out the Slack Farm looting entirely.

Yes, ignoring evidence that contradicts your hypothesis is something that you do well. Like ignoring all radiocarbon data, all stratigraphic data, and the sequence at the Modoc Rock Shelter, just down river from Cahokia.

Now why does Modoc Rock Shelter culture resemble Old Copper Culture, Vince, but there's no copper and no copper tools? This is completely unlike the Andaste copper trade routes to the east, where copper and copper tools abound.

Try because Modoc was early Glacial Kame culture, and there was nearly no copper trade down the Mississippi River from Lake Superior until after ca. 1,000 BCE, and most of that stopped a short time later. The "Oneota" showed up, you see.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on August 21, 2009, 02:05:23 am
1. Ed's source, flavin's corner, has no scientific basis. Anyone that reads it will quickly find out that it is pure garbage, tabloid style filth. An example of what I would consider much more reliable is
http://www.pittpaths.com/st/0084.htm
2. Any idea why Ed keeps bringing up John Moss?
3. Ed, Did the IHPA plunder Monks Mound with Backhoes? Destruction is forever.
4. Cognates are evidence, Artifacts that show links include such as lobed blades, microblades, morrow mountain points, etc
5. Ed'd accusations of "racism" are just as far afield as his acceptance of the work of flavin.
6. Ed's "copper hill" source could easily be proven by metallurgical analysis. However, it was already proven to be from upper Michigan. There are no ancient mines in Copper Hill Tennessee, in fact it is a modern pit mine. There are many ancient mines in Upper Michigan.
7. "the Natchez tradition keepers would have remembered it, Vince, and they did not." That is because it happened around 5000 years ago.
8. Yes, others have seen the caves including the IAS after I told them about the "cave near Murphysboro, which contains the only known (*of unproven time frame) charcoal and ocher "cave art" drawings in Illinois."
http://illarchsurvey.org/member_com/Mtg_2007_announce.html
* Removed "Mississippian" because there was absolutely no study done on this claim, just as the chronology that Ed's sources state are presenting misinformation, ignoring evidence, and perpetuating a paradigm with no support.
9. Ed is making assumptions about "tool marks with no evidence to support his mere conjecture.
10. Ed's further assumption that in 300 AD, the "classic Maya emergence" in Mesoamerica must have been contemporary with the date that the bannerstone engraving is also mere conjecture. The 4300 date is based on the work of Bannerstone expert David Lutz.
11.Ed, Read the De Soto chronicles. First he had no idea where he was, just going around killing, and pillaging cities. Second, he went to four cities that were surrounded by multiple stockades, just as Cahokia had. The itineraries confirm a visit to the largest mound, the largest city in the country, which matched Cahokia.
12, Ed still has not presented any evidence to support his opinion.
13, Now why are you changing the subject to Modoc Rock Shelter?
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on August 22, 2009, 07:03:30 pm
Why do some people continue to construct imaginary European empires in the Americas? I'm no psychologist, but I think it lies in guilt over the theft of the lands.

If you haven't read "Amazing Stories" yet, pm me and I'll send you a copy. I'm up to revision 14. It's everything that Vince claims, and much much more; besides the Burrows-Collin material, which is really only a very small part of it, its a real sewer, one that flows through every Barnes and Nobles and Borders in the nation.

The last thing they steal is your history.


Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on August 26, 2009, 01:49:43 am
Why do some people continue to construct imaginary European empires in the Americas? I'm no psychologist, but I think it lies in guilt over the theft of the lands.
Why does Ed assume that they were Europeans that invented the custom or linguistic evidence first? This is simply based on the paradgmn of "New world" which may well have been "Old" world before.

If you haven't read "Amazing Stories" yet, pm me and I'll send you a copy. I'm up to revision 14. It's everything that Vince claims, and much much more; besides the Burrows-Collin material, which is really only a very small part of it, its a real sewer, one that flows through every Barnes and Nobles and Borders in the nation.
Ed, I have attempted to read your "Amazing Stories", and even searched them for all kinds of keywords - like bannerstones, lithics, etc. Unfortunately you did not include any of this sort of material evidence in your stories, and they tend to focus more on Rumors, Hear-say, and personalities. The tabloid aspects of your paper hold little interest to me...
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on August 27, 2009, 11:21:44 pm
Vince, they didn't come from Atlantis or Lemuria, or what ever imaginary theosophist land some cultists will  posit.

For that matter you never gave us a clear statement of your hypothesis. What is it?

There are no artifacts in "Amazing Stories", just the activities of the biggest bunch of con artists and crazies around. "Gossip"? My sister calls it "S**t and Sleaze", and that pretty much describes it - biggest pile of s**t and sleaze in the US.

Flavin only caught smell of a small part of it... the fumes coming out of Burrow's Cave.

Did you ever find out where John Moss died?
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on August 31, 2009, 03:22:40 am
they didn't come from Atlantis or Lemuria, or what ever imaginary theosophist land some cultists will  posit.
Ed Continues to put words into my mouth. I did not ever posit any claims that remotely resemble these that Ed is throwing out in a repeated attempt to change the subject.

For that matter you never gave us a clear statement of your hypothesis. What is it?
In a nutshell, it is that Prehistoric peoples in America influenced other cultures around the world.

There are no artifacts in "Amazing Stories", just the activities of the biggest bunch of con artists and crazies around. "Gossip"? My sister calls it "S**t and Sleaze", and that pretty much describes it - biggest pile of s**t and sleaze in the US.
It certainly is a lot of rubbish.

Did you ever find out where John Moss died?
Ed, for the last time I have no idea who your "John Moss" is or where he died.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on August 31, 2009, 10:31:43 pm
Quote from: BuboAhab link=topic=2287.msg18826#msg18826

For that matter you never gave us a clear statement of your hypothesis. What is it?
In a nutshell, it is that Prehistoric peoples in America influenced other cultures around the world.

That's comforting, to some degree, but...

How does this tie in with your Norse/Ojibwe cognates?
How do you think they came about?
Who exactly were those "Prehistoric peoples" - Atlanteans or Lemurians, by any chance?

Quote from: BuboAhab link=topic=2287.msg18826#msg18826

There are no artifacts in "Amazing Stories", just the activities of the biggest bunch of con artists and crazies around. "Gossip"? My sister calls it "S**t and Sleaze", and that pretty much describes it - biggest pile of s**t and sleaze in the US.
It certainly is a lot of rubbish.

Actually, Vince, its the biggest load of rubbish in the land - "Amazing Stories" lays bare the entire US stupidity industry, right down to its evil core.

And it's all true. All documented - and I rechecked Flavin's facts.

Quote from: BuboAhab link=topic=2287.msg18826#msg18826


Did you ever find out where John Moss died?

Ed, for the last time I have no idea who your "John Moss" is or where he died.

Maybe someday you'll find out. Why don't you ask around at the next "convention" you attend?

Like I said before, The last thing they steal is your history.

Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on September 01, 2009, 02:33:39 am
How does this tie in with your Norse/Ojibwe cognates?
The Ojibwa influenced the Norse.

How do you think they came about?
Your guess is as good as mine.

Who exactly were those "Prehistoric peoples" - Atlanteans or Lemurians, by any chance?
They were smarter than me because they could survive with no electricity, or gas.



Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on September 02, 2009, 07:49:50 am
How does this tie in with your Norse/Ojibwe cognates?
The Ojibwa influenced the Norse.

Where? A Norse empire in North America, Vince?


Who exactly were those "Prehistoric peoples" - Atlanteans or Lemurians, by any chance?
They were smarter than me because they could survive with no electricity, or gas.

Yeah - you got to keep the electricity and gas on. I'm sure the folks at Ancient American and the other members of the ring of the US Stupidity industry will be willing to sell your book on your "investigations".

If they are still in business.
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: BuboAhab on September 03, 2009, 01:12:12 am
here? A Norse empire in North America, Vince?

Ed, the opposite is more likely: North American Tribal languages that spread to Norway. What makes this hard to comprehend?
Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on September 03, 2009, 08:54:17 pm
here? A Norse empire in North America, Vince?

Ed, the opposite is more likely: North American Tribal languages that spread to Norway. What makes this hard to comprehend?

Why hard to comprehend? Because consistently you never clearly stated your hypothesis. I am so used to seeing people put forth imaginary European empires in North America that I simply took you to be another one of them, as they often cite the Burrows Cave frauds.

By the way, I learned a few days back at Starved Rock that the Kaskaskia were actually a people.

Title: Re: Burrows Cave
Post by: E.P. Grondine on October 03, 2009, 11:13:28 pm
For anyone else on the net who may stumble into this thread in the future, here is a group of real cave archaeologists who work in the area:

http://www.cavearch.org/



Title: The Burrow's fraud spreads
Post by: E.P. Grondine on October 21, 2009, 07:29:59 pm
in a very predictable way:

http://www.flavinscorner.com/2009bc.htm

Note the linkage now to other materials used by the bogus theosophist religion.
Those who fall into Burrow's Cave are then further involved in the delusional framework.

Anyone who wants a copy of "Amazing Stories" simply PM me for one.

And if anyone learns where John Moss died, please let me know.