NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: Wojciech Jozwiak on February 10, 2008, 10:43:35 am

Title: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Wojciech Jozwiak on February 10, 2008, 10:43:35 am
=modyfied=
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: earthw7 on February 11, 2008, 12:26:47 am
NO,
There is NO white man who has that right
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Wojciech Jozwiak on February 11, 2008, 07:52:18 am
= modyfied =
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Freija on February 11, 2008, 12:54:11 pm
Hey Milanowek, I´m from just across the bay - from Sweden.

I have invited many Natives over here to speak, and I´ve never ever seen one of them in buckskin and headband....like this guy. It´s a show for the audience, nothing else.

"Lakota Tradition Keeper with the fourth degree of initiation" Ha ha ha! Sounds more like martial arts. Please don´t buy in to these things, they are not for real. Any person charging for spiritual workshops and boasting about his "initiations" - red alert!!

I think Earth expressed it pretty clearly. Check out her thread about adoptions, too
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1294.0   

Good luck with everything!

Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 11, 2008, 01:01:47 pm
Your website is very...interesting, Wojciech. Could you explain this, please?

http://www.taraka.pl/index.php?id=sofar.htm

Quote
June 1999...we completed all the activities that became a standard for the subsequent workshops: shamanic journeys with the drum, breathing, voice and visualization exercises, intestinal cleansing, Indian sweat lodge...

July 1999...We had as many as three sessions in the sweat lodge, developing the technique...

...around 2nd February 2000...I admire myself for the ability to find stones, necessary for the sweat lodge, under the snow!

summer solstice 2000...Activities: intestinal cleansing, drum journeys, drum playing, Indian sweat lodge and fire walking, and a few of us did also carried out burial in the earth. The workshop was strictly of an open-air character, without shelter in buildings. For the first time I had a teepee...

September 2002...Deep experiences in the sweat lodge: its effects, cleansing and relieving of the psyche, could be strongly felt.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Wojciech Jozwiak on February 11, 2008, 05:57:33 pm
=modyfied=
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 11, 2008, 08:49:38 pm
Hello everyone,

Your website is very...interesting, Wojciech. Could you explain this, please?

I've read this topic mostly because of "Woliczko's workshops" case, which seems to be (am I wrong?) an obvious fraud.

On the other hand I took a part in Wojciech's workshops a few years ago. You shouldn't be, under any circumstances, worried about Wojciech's "sweat lodge". Wojciech's never claimed to be a native Indian tradition teacher or to have a special permission/mission/teachings from native Indians.

Best regards,
Pawel
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: earthw7 on February 11, 2008, 10:06:21 pm
Dear 'earthw7' and All,
I have some more questions.
Indian name of Woliczko was spelled in some Internet places as „Matko Eyanka??? or „Matho Eyanka???. Have the words any sense in Lakota language?
Woliczko’s impressario wrote that he spent 20 years as a doctor in Lakota reservation named „Chemainus??? (or similarly - I foud 4 spellins of the name) in Canada. Are there any Lakota territories in Canada?
There is a township Chemainus at Vancover Island B.C., Canada, but do live any Lakota there?
I read that Woliczko is „Lakota Tradition Keeper with the fourth degree of initiation???. My question: are there any formal „ranks??? or „degrees of initiation??? among Lakota people? Are Lakota structurized like free-masonry?
Woliczko said as follows (his Polish interview is here: http://www.maya.net.pl/opinie.php?LANG=pl&sub=listy&title=1&count=99&od=24)
„I was adopted to the Lakota tribe by my teacher Gray Bear in Standing Rock Reservation. I became, in practice, a member of that reservation...??? I need any comment to this.
A photo from a seminar:
(http://www.maya.net.pl/images/rozne/semi_08.jpg)
I would like to check if Woliczko is a reliable teacher.


Which Gray Bear taught him Raymond Gray Bear? These Gray Bears are not Lakota but Dakota. Many are from the Fort Totten rez which is dakota. Whatever this person has no right just because he was adopted the only thing he allowed to do is care for his relatives.
Mato Eyanka is Running Bear
We do not have Lakota Tradition Keeper with the fourth degree of initiation in any of our beliefs.
Yes, we do have Lakota in Canada but they are refugee in Canada and do not have their own reserve there. None in Vancover Island B.C unless one moved there.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: earthw7 on February 11, 2008, 10:06:52 pm
Oh and you don't have the right for a sweat lodge
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Wojciech Jozwiak on February 11, 2008, 10:29:08 pm
=modyfied=
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Freija on February 11, 2008, 11:02:19 pm
I think Earth is talking about what is on your website:

"Despite the short time and unfavourable weather (rainy and cold), we completed all the activities that became a standard for the subsequent workshops: shamanic journeys with the drum, breathing, voice and visualization exercises, intestinal cleansing, Indian sweat lodge, fire walking, burial in the earth. I buried myself for the first time then. [See more...]"

I think she might be talking about the fact that no non-Natives are allowed to run a sweatlodge.
Oh well, she´ll explain....I´m sure.....

Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: LittleOldMan on February 11, 2008, 11:30:44 pm
To the best of my knowledge there is no connection between Masonry and Lakota ceremony.  There are many Native American Masons however.  I have sat in lodge with several.  In OK there are even lodges where The Native Language is spoken rather than English or so I have heard.  Historically Freemasonry is of European origin.  "LittleOldMan"   
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Wojciech Jozwiak on February 12, 2008, 08:22:46 am
= modyfied=
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Wojciech Jozwiak on February 12, 2008, 09:08:13 am
=modyfied=
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Laurel on February 12, 2008, 11:23:36 am
And I suggest you have just figured out that you've been busted.  Your site says twice that you run "Indian sweat lodges."  When told you have no right to do this, you claim you're really doing a nice European sauna and decide that Freija has, in making clear to you the error of your ways, somehow legitimized them.  Then you say you want this whole thread to disappear because some "opinions" that are already on-line might be seen on-line.

I'm not a moderator, and I don't tell them how to run this forum, but I have a feeling this thread, with its proof of the illegitimacy of both your and Mr. Woliczko's fraudulent practices and "opinions," is going to remain very public. 

In other words, "Stop, Mr Jozwiak, you have no right to do it."
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 12, 2008, 12:38:46 pm
Sorry, but:

Your site says twice that you run "Indian sweat lodges."

This is translated form Polish name of what was doing there, to avoid confusion. It's easy to get confused with this activity: this is not Finnish or Russian bania (e.g. not in a wooden hut). In the same matter you can say "I cooked some tacos", even though you used Heinz' baked beans, not original Mexican stuff. Or, concerning spiritual matters, "I was doing zen meditation", even though it was in e.g. in gym in Germany. But you can't claim "I am 4th grade zen buddism teacher", unless you can prove it.

When told you have no right to do this, you claim you're really doing a nice European sauna and decide that Freija has, in making clear to you the error of your ways, somehow legitimized them.  Then you say you want this whole thread to disappear because some "opinions" that are already on-line might be seen on-line.

First of all, what law states that someone has no right to do "sweat lodge" for himself and his friends? I'm not fighting with you, I'm just curious and looking for answer...

Secondly: calm down, please, the discussion will be more meaningful.

/../In other words, "Stop, Mr Jozwiak, you have no right to do it."/../

With all good will I can give to this discussion, I don't understand this. Please explain?

AFAIK there are two ways of treating "sweat lodge issue" even in 100% pure native Indian tradition. Not everyone agrees with Russell Means. I have no respect for "commercial plastic shamans", but if you judge too quickly, you misjudge.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 12, 2008, 01:14:48 pm
Epablito, I notice that articles written by you appear on Jozwiak's site. He's insulted our intelligence already; now you seem to be doing the same by asking for explanations of perfectly plain statements. Your English is clearly good enough for you to understand them without further explanation.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Freija on February 12, 2008, 01:36:35 pm
With all good will I can give to this discussion, I don't understand this. Please explain?

AFAIK there are two ways of treating "sweat lodge issue" even in 100% pure native Indian tradition. Not everyone agrees with Russell Means. I have no respect for "commercial plastic shamans", but if you judge too quickly, you misjudge.

Proclamation on the exploitation of Lakota ceremonies:
http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1051280913

Quote:
* I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony): Those that run this sacred rite should be able to communicate with Tun-ca-s'i-la (our Sacred Grandfathers) in their Native Plains tongue. They should also have earned this rite by completing Han-ble-c'i-ya and the four days and four years of the Wi-wanyang wa-c'i-pi.

It is correct that there are two ways to treat these issues: to follow the protocol. Or not.

Which is your way of treating "the sweatlodge issue" ?


Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 12, 2008, 01:55:19 pm
Well put Freija.

I saved this thread on a floppy just before Mr Jozwiak deleted it. If one of the moderators
wants to, or knows how, I could send it as an attachment ( email)  or just copy it and send it PM and it could be reposted.

Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 12, 2008, 01:57:32 pm
Epablito has articles (in Polish, unfortunately) on Jozwiak's site.

Yes, I have. We are happy with our freedom of speech here in cold dark Poland :)

In case you don't understand Polish:
First article is about Mitra's dungeon temple beneath old church in Rome, Italy.

Second article is about some examples of dreams being treated as source of inspiration: e.g. Kekule (chemist), Thomas Edison, Black Elk, Albert Einstein.

None of this is about sweatlodge, though.

BTW, this information wouldn't be possible to obtain without using my email address, which was supposed to be kept private on this forum. Why do you, Barnaby_McEwan, use my private information which I sent while registering to this forum? What have I done wrong to be treated like this? In case of any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 12, 2008, 02:14:30 pm
Proclamation on the exploitation of Lakota ceremonies:
http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1051280913

Thank you for the link. This document is extremely important and I haven't ever read it before.


* I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony): Those that run this sacred rite should be able to communicate with Tun-ca-s'i-la (our Sacred Grandfathers) in their Native Plains tongue. /../

I've never heard that someone ever has claimed he's doing Inipi ceremony in Poland. This probably should be treated as fraud in terms of this document.

However, there are purification ceremonies, which are not Lakota/Dakota/Nakota/Yankton Sioux/Oglala tradition. Those ceremonies are not "forbidden" in the doc. Does is make sense?

/../It is correct that there are two ways to treat these issues: to follow the protocol. Or not./../

Yes. If someone says "I'm doing Inipi ceremony", he must follow the protocol or clearly state, that it has nothing to do with the Inipi ceremony, as described in the document signed by native Indian Bundle Keepers of those tribes.

BTW, to make things clear: I've never been a "sweatlodge" leader nor even participated in a ceremony which was claimed to be Inipi ceremony...
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 12, 2008, 02:18:33 pm
BTW, this information wouldn't be possible to obtain without using my email address, which was supposed to be kept private on this forum. Why do you, Barnaby_McEwan, use my private information which I sent while registering to this forum? What have I done wrong to be treated like this? In case of any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

I'm sorry, my email was public. I didn't know it, it was supposed to be private: stop spammers :) However, again, I have nothing to be ashamed of in my texts...
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 12, 2008, 02:20:58 pm
The untranslated 2006 webpage from the web archive;

http://web.archive.org/web/20060719190915/http://www.taraka.pl/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20060719190915/http://www.taraka.pl/)
Quote
Building a Sweat Lodge. Klub archeolog?w z Birmingham buduje sza?as potu taki, jakiego u?ywali Brytyjczycy z epoki br?zu.

earthw7
Quote
you don't have the right for a sweat lodge

Quote
Quote from: Laurel on Today at 04:23:36 am
Quote
Your site says twice that you run "Indian sweat lodges
."

epablito
This is translated form Polish name of what was doing there, to avoid confusion.

epablito
Quote
None of this is about sweatlodge, though.

epablito
Quote
What have I done wrong to be treated like this?

Should be obvious.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito2 on February 12, 2008, 02:30:45 pm
The untranslated 2006 webpage from the web archive;

http://web.archive.org/web/20060719190915/http://www.taraka.pl/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20060719190915/http://www.taraka.pl/)
Quote
Building a Sweat Lodge. Klub archeolog?w z Birmingham buduje sza?as potu taki, jakiego u?ywali Brytyjczycy z epoki br?zu.

"Klub archeolog?w z Birmingham buduje sza?as potu taki, jakiego u?ywali Brytyjczycy z epoki br?zu."

means:
"Archeologists from Birmingham build sweatlodge, same as British used in Bronze Era."

No fraud here. It's just information about British archeologists...

epablito
Quote
What have I done wrong to be treated like this?

Should be obvious.
[/quote]

No. It's not obvious. Please explain.

Sorry for a new nick. epablito2=epablito
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: earthw7 on February 12, 2008, 03:07:35 pm
Inipi and sweat lodge is the same.
Many northern tribes use them but have different names
A person has not right to use them.
I have heard of the groups in Poland who are abusing
our ways.
You can delete all your post but it is still the same
you don't have the right to teach/build/run/sing/drum in
the lodges.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: earthw7 on February 12, 2008, 03:08:14 pm
Thank you for moving him to this site
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 12, 2008, 03:19:22 pm
Why do you, Barnaby_McEwan, use my private information which I sent while registering to this forum?

It's my business as an administrator to know who is posting on this forum. You gave the impression that you had just been to one of Joswiak's "workshops". You are better acquainted than that but were dishonest about it. I think the people you were lecturing needed to know the facts.

You and Joswiak aren't the first to try bullshitting us in this way, and I'm sure you won't be the last. I deleted your epablito2 profile, and restored the original email address (which only administrators can see) to your epablito (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=898) profile. Use that one in future.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 12, 2008, 03:44:14 pm
You and Joswiak aren't the first to try bullshitting us in this way, and I'm sure you won't be the last.

I'm not trying to bullshit anynone. Yes, I've been, on Jozwiak's workshop (I've never said something else) and can assure you: there was no "native Indian ceremony" or native Indian ceremony fraud, even in strict terms of document I was presented.

Yes, we have in Poland some examples of "plastic shamans" and I'm strongly against this, and even against using word "shamanism", which corresponds in my understanding to spiritual leaders from Syberia.

Articles written by me do not contain any information about sweatlodge fraud or native Indian teachings. I have never and nowhere written articles about native Indian ceremonies.

I deleted your epablito2 profile, and restored the original email address (which only administrators can see) to your epablito (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=898) profile. Use that one in future.

Thx.

The only thing that can be questionable here: IMHO everyone can make sweatlodge with fire and stones, as long as he/she doesn't claim it's native Indian ceremony. Sweatlodge purification is known in many cultures, e.g. Celtic, Turkish, Japanese, Russian, Finnish and most likely you know this. It's not only hygienic, however, spiritual part of i.e. celtic swetlodge is lost. Using hot stones from campfire and building a sweatlodge outdoor with sticks and a sheet of thick fabric is today known thanks to native Indian sweatlodge. IMHO using this technique is not forbidden, but of course, I can be wrong.

And this is the point to start discussion.
I hope you are ok. Best regards.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 12, 2008, 03:55:11 pm
(Quoting from what Barnaby found on your webpage)

http://www.taraka.pl/index.php?id=sofar.htm (http://www.taraka.pl/index.php?id=sofar.htm)


Quote
June 1999...we completed all the activities that became a standard for the subsequent workshops: shamanic journeys with the drum, breathing, voice and visualization exercises, intestinal cleansing, Indian sweat lodge...

Quote
summer solstice 2000...Activities: intestinal cleansing, drum journeys, drum playing, Indian sweat lodge and fire walking, and a few of us did also carried out burial in the earth. The workshop was strictly of an open-air character, without shelter in buildings. For the first time I had a teepee...


epablito
Quote
Klub archeolog?w z Birmingham buduje sza?as potu taki, jakiego u?ywali Brytyjczycy z epoki br?zu."

means:
"Archeologists from Birmingham build sweatlodge, same as British used in Bronze Era."
(from the 2006 web page)


That must be a popular presentation. I can imagine many European people would be very desirous to learn "Indian Sweat Lodge" is their own tradition and no Indians have any right to protect these Indian Sweat lodge traditions as belonging to Indians. I had no idea there was Indians in Bronze age England! This is very facinating!!!!

What is the name of this British archeologist? I'd like to know where exactly
they got the information on what type of sweatlodge, the British used in Bronze Era.

(with sources sited for this information which can be verified as profesional and recognized in the archeological community )

epablito
Quote
No fraud here. It's just information about British archeologists...

How can that explaination possibly fit with the earlier "Indian Sweat Lodges" Barnaby found on your current webpage?

Of course we all understand that for some people even up can be said to be down, because thats true for people in Australia.....
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 12, 2008, 05:16:21 pm
Moma_porcupine:

That must be a popular presentation. I can imagine many European people would be very desirous to learn "Indian Sweat Lodge" is their own tradition and no Indians have any right to protect these Indian Sweat lodge traditions as belonging to Indians. I had no idea there was Indians in Bronze age England! This is very facinating!!!!

I think you are desperately trying to prove that I am some kind of a leader of European fraud front. I'm not.

Noone claims that  "Indian Sweat Lodge" is european tradition! Sweat lodge, a purification ritual, is a part of European tradition (and not only European). But not Indian Sweat Lodge! However, the spiritual part of European sweat lodges is lost in time (i.e. modern ones are purely hygenic). So, to discover spiritual part of european sweat lodge some people think is good to use outdoor technique which is used by native Indian and probably was used (in similiar form) by people around the world at some point in time. That doesn't mean "let's take their Sweat Lodge". It means "learn from native Indian tradition to find our tradition". And this worked! People gather around fire and sing our old songs using our old vocal techniques. People use frame drums not because YOU use them, but because Polish village people used frame drums for last few hundred years. And so on, and so on... There's nothing about "plastic shamans" in this. There are some examples of "plastic Indian shamanism" and THAT IS WHAT Jozwiak's been trying to verify (if someone can claim he's a native Indian tradion teacher, which seemed ridiculous).

So if you find "Indian sweat lodge" somewhere it should be treated in this case as "native Indian type sweatlodge" rather than "native Indian Sweat Lodge" or Inipi. Nobody wants to steal your spirituality, what for?

Quote
What is the name of this British archeologist? I'd like to know where exactly
they got the information on what type of sweatlodge, the British used in Bronze Era.

I'll try to provide some links to european/celtic sweat lodge re-creation.

Quote
How can that explaination possibly fit with the earlier "Indian Sweat Lodges" Barnaby found on your current webpage?

It is NOT my webpage. I've just sent a few texts there, not about native Indian tradition.

Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: debbieredbear on February 12, 2008, 05:43:35 pm
Quote
So if you find "Indian sweat lodge" somewhere it should be treated in this case as "native Indian type sweatlodge" rather than "native Indian Sweat Lodge" or Inipi. Nobody wants to steal your spirituality, what for?

Ok, so if no one wants to steal our spirituality, why call it "native Indian type sweatlodge"? Stop trying to explain away exploitation. You mention in another post all of these different Euro groups that had a sweatlodge, when what they had wasa sauna. Much different.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: frederica on February 12, 2008, 06:42:11 pm
Did your elders teach you to build a sweat lodge? Are your elders Lakota/Dakota/Nakota? If not it is cultural appropiation. All the rationalization  in the world won't change this. Sorry you lost yours, but the Newage movement has a tendency to mix and change things and then people accept it as the real thing.  If you had sweats before the Romans, make that up seems that would be just as easy.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 13, 2008, 01:31:07 am
Archeologists are scientists, and scientists work with physical evidence and hypothesis. If any physical evidence exists that could suggest such practices possibly existed , I have doubts any real archeologist would have been willing to present this as a cultural practice it was possible to reconstruct . 

Even if somewhere in Britian a pile of rocks that were heated in a fire were found that date back to the bronze age, I have to wonder what physical evidence allows any archeologist to conclude these rocks were used in a ceremony ? How would they know heated rocks weren't used for baking , or steaming wood to be more flexible before it was bent into weapons , or perhaps even something that was done before one of those people got strangled and deposited in a peat bog ?

As you say the ancient cultural practices are no longer known, the bottom line is, this  just sounds like another fancy story made up to justify the theft and degradation of Native traditions to me .

But I would still be very interested in knowing this archeologists name , their training, what evidence they have gathered , and what other archeologists support their conclusions .

Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Michel on February 13, 2008, 02:08:40 am
My name is Przemyslaw Woliczko Mato Eyanka (Running Bear) I apologize if I offended anyone. 
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Defend the Sacred on February 13, 2008, 07:36:54 am
"Klub archeolog?w z Birmingham buduje sza?as potu taki, jakiego u?ywali Brytyjczycy z epoki br?zu."

means:
"Archeologists from Birmingham build sweatlodge, same as British used in Bronze Era."

No fraud here. It's just information about British archeologists...

Like the Ballyvourney reconstructions, there is no evidence that the Birmingham Burnt Mound site was used as a "sweat lodge".  Some people from a Children's archaeology club, and at another point a neo-shameonick group, built an Inipi type structure there, but, unlike Ballyvourney, this lot didn't seem to have even based their "lodge" on the actual design of the archaelogical site in question. Nor did they base their rituals on patterns indigenous to their own European cultures.

They were very clear about the fact they were basing it on Inipi. They use words like "lodge" and say they "then dug a hole in the center of the lodge" (as in, there wasn't one there to start with). They also report speculations as fact on the linked page http://www.byac.org.uk/news/sweatlodge.html Again, it's the problem of people approaching a problem assuming it will fit a model from another culture, instead of doing deeper research into the culture in question and letting the facts and actual patterns arise from there.

The burnt mounds are sites with broken rocks, anywhere from one to three firepits,  a depression in the ground filled with water, and the remains of post holes around the site. The hole with water or stones is only sometimes inside the structure, and not usually in the middle. Speculations about their use run the gamut from cooking to brewing to bathing. We have a few things in the Gaelic lore collected by Martin Martin about the use of sweating and praying "to achieve a state of peace". There are stone structures that were used as sweat houses or saunas, found in the Gaelic-speaking areas of Ireland and Scotland, and a stone bathouse in Portugal. The complete rituals for these structures do not survive, only fragments and suggestions here and there.

Sadly, it has become fashionable for people who want to rip off Inipi and other Indian ceremonies to call their fake Inipi "Celtic" or "universal". This does violence to both Indian and Celtic cultures. The people who lie like this, or who are ignorant enough to believe this, are also not part of Gaelic cultures. Though some are getting savvy enough to lie about that, too.

Everyone I know who is claiming to do a "Celtic" or "European Sweat" is basically doing Wiccan rituals in an Inipi-type structure, or a made-up variation on Inipi.

What little we know of what rituals and prayers may have been used with
European sweating ceremonies are very different from both Wicca and Inipi. I have studied the material extensively, and everyone I've met who claims what they're doing is "universal" is ripping off Lakota or other Indian traditions.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Defend the Sacred on February 13, 2008, 08:57:07 am
Googling turned up this: http://www.sacharunaclinic.fora.pl/klinika-sacharuna,4/szaman-z-kliniki-w-polsce-ceremonie,19.html

Quote
Moge napisac do ludzi ktorzy organizowali podobne imprezy konkretniej seminarium z udzialem Przemyslawa Woliczko i poradzic sie troszke jak to wygladalo z ich strony w przygotowaniach. Moze wiedza gdzie zasiegnac informacji na temat legalnosci Yage.

Przemyslaw Woliczko to fizyk kwantowy, programista, muzyk czlowiek wszechstronnie uzdolniony mowi bodajze w 5 jezykach. Dwadziescia lat mieszkal w rezerwacie Indian w Kanadzie uzyskal 4 stopien inicjacji w tradycje plemienia Lakota i Ojibway. Zreszta przeczytajcie sobie wywiad z nim http://www.maya.net.pl/opinie.php?LANG=pl&sub=artykuly&id=177

Mozna by bylo nawet polaczyc seminarium z udzialem Przemyslawa Woliczko jesli by byla mozliwosc!!!.

I admit I don't understand much in there besides "Yage" and "Lakota and Ojibway".

http://www.maya.net.pl/opinie.php?LANG=pl&sub=artykuly&id=177

looks to be an interview. Words that jump out: "Peoples Pipe", lots of mentions of "Sweat Lodge", "Vision Quest", "Rezerwatu Indian",  "Ko?o Medyczne" and again, "Lakota i Ojibway".
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 13, 2008, 03:49:26 pm
Like the Ballyvourney reconstructions, there is no evidence that the Birmingham Burnt Mound site was used as a "sweat lodge".

First of all, I'm not an archeologist nor ethnologist. AFAIK there are proofs that sweatlodges were used all over Europe and Asia for both hygienic and spiritual purposes. I can be wrong at this, but again: this is my current knowledge in this field.

To make things clear: I'm not the owner of taraka.pl website and I'm not Wojciech's attorney :) However, I'm proud to be one of his friends. I have no connections to Mr Woliczko.

All this quite tough discussion is a surprise for me, I've never thought that using a sweatlodge can means insulting someone in some way or breaking some laws. On the contrary, there are many activities taken from many cultures, activities which have spiritual part, e.g. drumming (learnt on the basis of Syberian shaman drumming). There's even a vision quest tradition in Polish culture, you can see such quests e.g. in our legends and there are recreated now, with some success. These are not Indian vision quests, however you can find some similiarities: hunger, long walk alone, meditation, singing, in rare ocassions hallucinogen mashrooms are used (we have plenty of those).

I must admit you treat words "Indian sweat lodge" with great care, but I have never seen or took a part in sweat lodge that was meant and told to be "Inipi" or "Lakota sweat lodge" or even "native Indian sweatlodge". Of course you can argue that any activity which is related to "Indian sweatlodge" is forbidden is some way. I think we should distinguish two things:
1. native Indian sweatlodge or Lakota/Dakota Sweatlodge or Inipi: native Indian ceremony connected with a tradition and culture of the Lakota/Dakota/other nation.
2. Indian sweatlodge, meant as purification ritual or ceremony with hot stones, steam and fire, performed in temporary shelter. "Indian" in the sense that the technique is used, not your culture or your gods or your language. This technique seems to be lost in Europe, some evidences show that is was avaiable and used at some point in the past.

There is a movement, called "Friends of Indians": a set of people fascinated in Native North American Indian culture and recreating some of native Indian traditions. I have no connection with and very little knowledge about this, I've heard about pow-wows, dances and even recreating dresses, but no details, sorry. Sample site: http://indianie.eco.pl or http://www.indianie.info
It seems to me that Mr Woliczko is referring to this kind of things in his post.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 13, 2008, 04:11:13 pm
All this quite tough discussion is a surprise for me, I've never thought that using a sweatlodge can means insulting someone in some way...

Now you know better.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 13, 2008, 04:16:08 pm
My name is Przemyslaw Woliczko and I would to say something about my case that was put in a public in this forum. First of all, I did not authorize any of the text that was published on the web pages in Poland.

I find that difficult to believe.

Quote
But I guess some people who came to my seminar, they did not pay attention, and they summarize my speech according to their feelings. I started my seminar with words: “I am not a shaman, I an not Native American, I am not a teacher of Native American Spirituality, but I am against New Age Movement, I am against movements so called Friends of Indians, and I am against exploitation of Native American Culture and Spirituality.

But you were wearing an "Indian" costume and standing in front of an "altar" at the time, and then you

Quote
...performed the Cleansing Ceremony in the Ojbway traditions.

I can see why people were, as you put it, confused.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: earthw7 on February 13, 2008, 04:24:18 pm
So what do we really have here two individuals telling on each other.

It seems that they are both wrong.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 13, 2008, 04:48:17 pm
So what do we really have here two individuals telling on each other.

If mentioned my humble person, I'm not telling anything about Mr Woliczko. Simple, I don't know him.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 13, 2008, 05:00:36 pm
This is the text of Jozwiak's first post in this thread, which he later scribbled all over in an attempt to hide his tracks: thanks to Moma_Porcupine, who saved it.



Dear Friends,
Some months ago a new Lakota workshop leader appeared in Poland, Europe. His Polish name is Przemyslaw Woliczko and he uses also a Lakota name Matho Eyanka what was translated as "Runnig Bear".
He started leading his workshops in October 2007. Woliczko insists to be validated Lakota elder with full secret message in Lakota ceremonial practices. He was titled, in an ad, "Keeper of the Traditions of Lakota and Ojibwa Tribes" and the only White Guardian of the "Pipe for the People" - the one of allegedly existing nine such pipes.
His two-day long workshops performed in gym halls (not at open air) hava a praise 300 in local currency or 115 US dollars.

Do you know or hear about him? Really was such a White man among Lakota or Ojibwa elders?

With compliments
Wojciech Jozwiak
taraka@taraka.pl
http://www.taraka.pl
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 13, 2008, 06:44:18 pm
I can understand you have quite a lot of troubles with "plastic shamans" or "cultural appropriation" in U.S. All those fake native Indians or "the only white teachers of native Indian tradition".

Apparently there are two ways even among native Indians (of course you'll say I'm wrong, but I've done some research now and that's what I've found).

Some say it's ok to do sweatlodge based. Some say it's not. Some, like you, say it's not ok to do any sweatlodge, because there's only one native Indian sweatlodge. Sometimes it's not ok even to use words "Indian sweatlodge".

But it's not about your rituals and your culture. It's just that you're so wise, you don't need to listen.

I saw this type of internet angry mob many times.

It's always very educational to watch, but it leads to nowhere.
Best regards.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Freija on February 13, 2008, 07:13:03 pm
....and it would have been so easy just to say: "Sorry, we didn´t know that you felt uncomfortable with us doing the Indian Type Sweatlodge. Now when we know, we´ll stop doing it!"

Did that alternative ever enter your mind?

Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 13, 2008, 08:18:15 pm
....and it would have been so easy just to say: "Sorry, we didn´t know that you felt uncomfortable with us doing the Indian Type Sweatlodge. Now when we know, we´ll stop doing it!"

Did that alternative ever enter your mind?

I can speak only about me, not "us", whoever it is.

As for me, I'll switch from "Indian sweat lodge" to "bania" in case of referring activities done in Poland. Our discussion was educational in that matter.

Think about this: the traditional teaching can be done only orally face-to-face. If so, we here in Europe should only listen to people who came to us from your land and who tell us about e.g. native Indian tradition. Orally, face-to-face. Who should I trust? A website? Or people I know, who are truthful and wise and told me about their visits to native Indians? The message sent orally, face-to-face is quite different.

Native Indians, who visit Poland, say something different than you, AFAIK.
People who visit Poland and claim to be allowed to teach sweatlodge say something different than you.
People who'd been visiting native Indians in U.S. and then went back to Poland, say something different than you.

Even more, in case of many different activities: joga, martial arts, zen meditation... and many more, this worked pretty well. Things that were taught by reliable teachers happened to be ok with real teachings done by "original" native teachers (e.g. japanese sword masters, Hindu joga teachers...).   I hope you get my point.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 13, 2008, 08:53:37 pm
Native Indians, who visit Poland, say something different than you, AFAIK.

Of course they do: money is at stake. The question is what standing do those people have back home? None, I expect.

Quote
People who'd been visiting native Indians in U.S. and then went back to Poland, say something different than you.

Which Indians and what is their position in their own communities? I'm English but I can't teach anyone how to conduct an Anglican communion service.

Quote
Even more, in case of many different activities: joga, martial arts, zen meditation... and many more, this worked pretty well. Things that were taught by reliable teachers happened to be ok with real teachings done by "original" native teachers (e.g. japanese sword masters, Hindu joga teachers...).   I hope you get my point.

It's interesting that you mention martial arts: the thing is, no one in Asia is hurt by Westerners practicing arts which are mostly sports, ways to keep safe, and ways of improving one's health. Even the overtly spiritual arts, like aikido, are emphatically for anyone anywhere to learn. Aikido's originator, Ueshiba Morihei Sensei, refused to teach his art to non-Japanese students before WW2. After the war he had a change of heart and hoped that aikido would spread peace through the world. If there are Japaneses aikido students or other martial artists who disagree with that decision they have kept their objections private. The same is true for judo, karate, tae kwon do, etc.

It is not true with Indian religions: at the very least you must be part of an Indian community and know the language. You cannot just go and practice once a week at a gym.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 13, 2008, 09:31:52 pm
Quote
Of course they do: money is at stake.

Money is not important I think: I've never heard that anyone required really big money for such workshops and even then Polish can't pay as much as U.S. citizens or e.g. U.K. citizens. No point in coming to Poland just to get a few bucks to cover travel costs.

I've personally never paid a single coin to enter sweatlodge.

Quote
Which Indians and what is their position in their own communities?

Of course even if I give you names of them (and I don't want to give you another "fraud" target right now) I can't say much about their position in their own communities.

Quote
It's interesting that you mention martial arts: the thing is, no one in Asia is hurt by Westerners practicing arts which are mostly sports, ways to keep safe, and ways of improving one's health. Even the overtly spiritual arts, like aikido, are emphatically for anyone anywhere to learn.

That's right. If this attitude (open) is true for many activities (even spiritual) so it was taken as true for native Indian techniques. Even if,  as I mentioned, Indian sweat lodge was at most technical base for recreation of our own sweatlodge purifcation ceremony. At least as I've seen this.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 13, 2008, 09:47:26 pm
Quote
Of course they do: money is at stake.

Money is not important I think: I've never heard that anyone required really big money for such workshops and even then Polish can't pay as much as U.S. citizens or e.g. U.K. citizens.

Your friend Jozwiak says that the subject of this thread charged $115 US for his "seminar". That is not small change for most people in the US and the UK.

Quote
I've personally never paid a single coin to enter sweatlodge.

Oh, now it's a sweatlodge again - not a sauna or a bania.

Quote
I can't say much about their position in their own communities.

Then there is absolutely no way for you to tell whether they are reliable.

Quote
If this attitude (open) is true for many activities (even spiritual) so it was taken as true for native Indian techniques.

Only by people who have never heard what Indians without a stake in this exploitation have to say about it. Now you have heard. You can continue to minimise, rationalise, and deny or you can listen to Indians for a change.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Freija on February 13, 2008, 09:56:38 pm

Native Indians, who visit Poland, say something different than you, AFAIK.
People who visit Poland and claim to be allowed to teach sweatlodge say something different than you.
People who'd been visiting native Indians in U.S. and then went back to Poland, say something different than you.


....and all these people say something different to what is stated in the proclamation, don´t they? 

If you believe them instead of the protocols handed down from generations back, then I have another question:

What is your opinion about "the inner circle" of Lakota bundlekeepers and Elders, not to mention the Keeper of the Pipe, getting it so totally wrong? Is it incompetence, do you think?
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: earthw7 on February 14, 2008, 12:06:54 am
People just don't want to understand that some of our own people are corrupt and will go against our people wishes. If you read the proclaimation it states that No white people are to do our ceremonies, sweat lodges or sun dances. If you read it ask for those of you who took our pipes to please return them. It is a matter of respect that you don't seem to have. I know of melvin gray bears doing though out his life i am sorry that this was done. I can understand how you would think that you are right by listen to these guy who travel to Europe but they are not right.
abuse is abuse no matter what claim you make.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 14, 2008, 02:10:28 pm
/../ It is a matter of respect that you don't seem to have./../I can understand how you would think that you are right by listen to these guy who travel to Europe but they are not right.
abuse is abuse no matter what claim you make.

It's easy to say that I have no respect - it's easier than explain, for sure.

I'm drilling into this issues to know better. This is not lack of respect, this is my interest. If you want someone to know about truth, pls explain. If you don't want, what for is all of this internet fight against fraud?

What I'm saying is: face-to-face contacts give information different than yours. Yes, it's possible that all native Indians who came to Poland and all white people who claim they have permission to do things are just bunch of idiots or simply corrupted individuals seeking for money and willingly destroying native Indian culture. But probability of such situation is low.

I can understand now that there're at least two different viewpoints. You present one, other people present another. You show this document, the proclamation - this is important thing and should be known to anyone who happens to get in touch with Dakota/Lakota culture.

However, while searching this forum, I've been getting more and more suspicious. Some examples:

Michael Harner - for sure his works are controversial. He's not however, exploting rules of the proclamation, as I can understand it. What he uses or teaches is just drumming (not forbidden by any law) and creating visions(not forbidden so far). Usage of words "shamanic", "shaman" is a little controversial, but not forbidden (the word spread from Ewenk culture through the world).

Stanislav Grof - interesting person, born just next to Poland, in Czech. AFAIK he teaches his own invented method of holotropic breathing. No fraud there.

Celtic culture - now this is interesting. There are people who feel like being a part of Celtic culture even if they live in U.S. and only their ancestors lived in Celtic lands (Ireland, Scotland, Britanny, Wales etc.) However, there's no point in fighting with "not-so-true" Celtic culture followers, because nearly all Celtic rituals are recreated in modern times.

Archeologists say Celtic nations lived on the territory of Poland. More than likely that lot of Poles have Celtic ancestors. Our culture have a lot in common with "Celtic nations" cultures, e.g. we have more types of bagpipes than all modern Six Celtic nations alltogether... There're even language similiarities. I've been living in Scotland for some time and was several times mistaken as Scottish Gaelic speaker. I even do speak some (not much though) Scottish Gealic. Am I a person that can use Celtic recreated rituals? Would I be hunted and put on fraud list if I recreate Celtic rituals? I don't want to, I'm just asking.

Now to the point. I can understand you fight with "sweat lodge fraud" or whatever you call it. You have some points, my lack of knowledge and lack of face-to-face contact with native Indians nations doesn't give me a chance to verify them. It's just a website against other websites.

IMHO there's no sense in seeking fraud in recreated rites or ceremonies like those connected to e.g. modern Celts. Why are you doing this?

Your credibility is lowered by some obviously false frauds published here. Many websites quite accurate point your errors, e.g. http://newagefraud  .blogspot.com

At the end we are with checking who belongs to what culture. How can we check this for sure? Only by DNA tests. There were people in the past, who verified another people by their blood. It didn't end well.

"Indian sweat lodge" can be an issue, I have too little knowledge to verify this for sure. However, more and more I read pages of this forum it seems you've lost sense of reality somewhere in the way. I hope you wake up, will all respect to all great cultures we speak about.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on February 14, 2008, 03:12:43 pm
It's easy to say that I have no respect - it's easier than explain, for sure.

What part of the word no do you not understand? It has been explained to you: if you don't like the explanation, that's your problem.

Quote
Yes, it's possible that all native Indians who came to Poland and all white people who claim they have permission to do things are just bunch of idiots or simply corrupted individuals seeking for money and willingly destroying native Indian culture. But probability of such situation is low.

You are still not listening. You've been told by Indian people more than once now that no one outside Indian country can operate a sweat lodge or have a pipe.

Quote
You show this document, the proclamation - this is important thing and should be known to anyone who happens to get in touch with Dakota/Lakota culture.

Then stop ignoring what it says.

Quote
Many websites quite accurate point your errors, e.g. http://newagefraud  .blogspot.com

Your refusal to listen makes your opinion irrelevant. That blog is operated by a promoter of frauds who is angry with us for obvious reasons. If you want people here to listen to what you have to say, you must listen yourself to what Indians have been saying loudly about cultural appropriation for decades.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Moma_porcupine on February 14, 2008, 05:00:47 pm
epablito , you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about. Before you make yourself sound even more silly and disrespectful than you already do, may I suggest you read the information in the link below;

Advice for critics of NAFPS

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0)

As Barnaby says, the website you found that is critical of NAFPS is put together by people who support exploiters. If you read through the links below, you might get a better idea about who is who and what people's agendas are.

That website began with a guy John Lekay who was promoting frauds who didn't like what we doing here. ( Gee i wonder why)

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1029.0  (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1029.0)

Do a search on some of the names that come up using the search feature for more information on all these people.

So this person began complaining ;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1265.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1265.0)

People personally invested in exploiters often do everything possible to avoid listening ; 
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/08/06/18439218.php?show_comments=1#18440799 (http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/08/06/18439218.php?show_comments=1#18440799)

These people openly stated their support for Yeagley, the supposed Indian featured in this clearly anti Indian racist documentary;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1523.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1523.0)

John Martin ( Tall Soldier ) who is a supporter of both Yegaley and John Lekay openly stated that Yeagley had a role in trying to shut down NAFPS

http://www.badeagle.com/cgi-bin/ib3/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=f7fb624b19f9051302e2c32d6b984765;act=ST;f=19;t=7951
TS77
Quote
I told you guys that nut Al Carroll was breaking the law. I can see him now, crying over
his laptop, lamenting like a woman.

NOTE: TYPE IN www.newagefraud.org AND SEE WHAT YOU GET!

THANKS TO JOHN LEKAY AND DR. YEAGLEY WE FINALLY NAILED THAT MEXICAN S.O.B.

If you read through this you will get a better idea of why there seems to be two different opinions;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1326.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1326.0)

And reading this might help you understand whats the harm;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1110.0
 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1110.0)
If you are looking for something simple cute and cuddly to make you feel better, it would be a lot safer to go buy yourself a teddy bear.

And I posted some information of the so called Bronze Age Sweat lodge here;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1539.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1539.0)

Thanks to Kathryn for the link

Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: earthw7 on February 14, 2008, 05:11:38 pm
Gee all i can say is that
I am an enrolled member of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe,
I am enrolled as 7/8 Standing Rock and 1/8 oglala.
I live on my reservation and work for my tribe.
I know who i am and i know when things are wrong.
I am only in my fifties still a few years away from my elders
but i do thke all of this to my elder for review.

We have people who come to europe even after they were asked not too by the elders and spiritual leaders.
We ask people not to make people like you because you don't listen to the rules and ways of our culture that have been the way for thousands of years.
What are we suppose to do when people do bad things.

If you want call my tribe and ask for me.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Defend the Sacred on February 14, 2008, 10:08:20 pm
Am I a person that can use Celtic recreated rituals? Would I be hunted and put on fraud list if I recreate Celtic rituals? I don't want to, I'm just asking.

Ceart ma tha... your statements here show you are as ignorant about the various cultures of the Celtic Nations and the diasporas as you are about those of Native Americans.

Like with First Nations cultures and communities, the point is not for outsiders to the culture to imitate the practices of a culture they were not raised in. If you really want to participate in rituals of a culture that you were not raised in, it is your responsibility to see if the actual elders and traditionals of that culture, authorized by that culture are ok with it and whether they'll have you. You have to approach the elders of that culture on their terms, not yours.

The people coming to your country to sell ceremonies are not authorized representatives of Indian cultures. Those who wrote the Declaration of War, are. You have been told now, multiple times, that imitating these ceremonies is not acceptable, yet you are taking the racist attitude of deciding that the voices of actual Indian people, leaders and elders, do not matter.

We have a massive number of frauds out there abusing what little they know of Celtic traditions. We also have a lot of material that has survived in folklore, some of it written down and, hence, public. Even the practices, customs and beliefs that survived in my family are not really secret. Because of that, our communities are in a very different state than those of the First Nations. However, the fact that we don't have as established a structure and community doesn't mean we have none.  A big similarity is that those in the Gaeltachtaí agus G? idhealtachdan are also struggling to maintain their culture and traditions, aided by those of us in the diaspora that work with groups such as An Comunn G? idhealach Ameireaganach agus The Celtic League. Also, a central principle agreed to by those of us in the Celtic Reconstructionist movement is that cultural appropriation is not a permitted part of the tradition. 
http://paganachd.com/faq/misconceptions.html#firstnations To my great sorrow, I have discovered that one of the people who signed off on that statement is ripping off Lakota traditions (ironically, she's Polish). We have our disappointments and frauds, too. But that's for another thread.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: epablito on February 16, 2008, 09:42:06 am
Quote
I am enrolled as 7/8 Standing Rock and 1/8 oglala.

I'm sorry for you, with all the respect I can give. I'd never allow myself to be enrolled anywhere on the basis of my bloodline. This leads to nowhere.

My ancestors, my grandfathers needed to be enrolled as 100% Polish to avoid being killed as Jews. People were examined how much jewish blood they have, to be marked as Jew and sent do death camp or not. 80% of people from my town were killed just because of they blood. And you let yourself to be enrolled somewhere because of your blood. It makes my flesh creeps...


If you really want to participate in rituals of a culture that you were not raised in, it is your responsibility to see if the actual elders and traditionals of that culture, authorized by that culture are ok with it and whether they'll have you.

Elders or traditionals of RECREATED celtic spirituality? Sorry, this is just silly.

Quote
You have been told now, multiple times, that imitating these ceremonies is not acceptable, yet you are taking the racist attitude of deciding that the voices of actual Indian people, leaders and elders, do not matter.

You don't listen. As I said, I can only have your website against other websites. I do not argue against Declaration of war or sth, I'm just saying I have your website and other websites and all of this seems to be just fight among angry and silly people. I'm not saying it is so, i'm saying it looks like this.

And stop pissing me off with "rasist attitude".
"Racism - the belief that members of one race are intrinsically superior or inferior to members of other races (wikipedia)". As for now it is you who insult me and keep telling me I'm inferior to others in terms I'm not good enough to use some e.g. purification ceremonies.

Quote
To my great sorrow, I have discovered that one of the people who signed off on that statement is ripping off Lakota traditions (ironically, she's Polish).

Now THIS IS racism approach.

Celtic Reconstructionism - go for a walk :) clear your brain and think about this again. You have no right to think you're more "true" reconstructionists than any other people who recreate Celtic spirituality. Why? Because you've signed sth or keep in touch with native Indians anti-fraud front? This doesn't give you any reason to think you're more "true" than any other Celtic recreation group. No Celtic spirituality elders, no oral spiritual tradition. Some archeological information, evolved and partially recreated language and some books from medieval times with just but traces of Celtic spirituality.

And you keep telling I'm silly or disrespectful...
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: ra6as on February 16, 2008, 11:24:31 am
 
epablito because of the tragic history of your locality, you have a understandable wish to make no distinction between people on the basis of their ancestry.  That is admirable.

Other people, not sharing your history, may be proud of their ancestry and understandably wish to undertake an action such as enrollment on that basis.  That also is admirable.

Surely it is irrational of you to insist that other people should feel the same way about ancestry as you do.

When you say

Quote
I'm sorry for you, with all the respect I can give.

I wonder if you are just trying to make an argumentative and irrational point.
 
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: educatedindian on February 16, 2008, 08:39:57 pm
"You don't listen. As I said, I can only have your website against other websites. I do not argue against Declaration of war or sth, I'm just saying I have your website and other websites and all of this seems to be just fight among angry and silly people. I'm not saying it is so, i'm saying it looks like this."

Actually you are the one is not listening. Or rather you are making the choice to not listen.

The ones who favor selling ceremony to non-Natives are a tiny tiny group, a couple dozen out of millions of Natives.

The ones who protest that small group of sellouts and traitors are the great majority of Natives, led by traditional elders.

You claim to respect Native traditions, but attack Native elders as "silly" for wanting to protect tradition?

Epablito, how right would it be for me to call myself a rabbi because a gentile claiming to be the High Priest of the Holy Torah Kabalah said it was OK?

And how would you feel if anyone Jewish who was offended by this was then attacked as being "silly"?
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: earthw7 on February 17, 2008, 05:20:10 am
I can even reply to his statement, I am an enrolled member of my nation which i am very proud to be.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: Defend the Sacred on February 17, 2008, 11:04:59 pm
I'm sorry for you, with all the respect I can give. I'd never allow myself to be enrolled anywhere on the basis of my bloodline. This leads to nowhere.

I am sorry your family suffered during the war. But you are looking at this from only your perspective, not making an effort to see that it means something different here in America. And your condescension is not going to help.

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If you really want to participate in rituals of a culture that you were not raised in, it is your responsibility to see if the actual elders and traditionals of that culture, authorized by that culture are ok with it and whether they'll have you.

Elders or traditionals of RECREATED celtic spirituality? Sorry, this is just silly.

I was talking about any traditional cultures, but mostly First Nations ones. However, in terms of the G? idhealtachdan agus Gaeltachtaí, yes, we do have real elders in terms of culture and language. In terms of those in reconstructed polytheistic traditions, we have less. But we do have those of us who are middle aged and have been doing this since we were very young, plus participants in our communities who are are as old as eighty (as was one officiant of the Tara preservation ritual this past Oíche Shamhna, who was also raised with many of these cultural traditions we are now reviving). Our community makes do with what we have, and you have shown over and over you know nothing about it.

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No Celtic spirituality elders, no oral spiritual tradition.

Again, you are clueless. And your statements to Earth and the other Native people here are quite offensive.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: frederica on February 18, 2008, 12:16:48 am
It now is just argument for the sake of argument. The Polish Culture has absolutely no relation to First Nations, American Indians, or the Indigineous Cultures of South America. If a few Ndns decide to pretend to be "rock-star Ndns" and all the time they know this is not approve of, their Nation will have to deal with that. But as Earth says the people who claim adoption, sacred pipes and so on, thats another story. And it can be explained 1000 times and people will hear only what they wish to hear. It doesn't fit their agenda. If the Polish people wish to reinvent their own spirituality, fine. Just do it without  the use of Indigenious people's culture in the Americas. And that is well over 300 Nations. Teaching history is one thing, abusing spiruality is quite another, especialy wheh these people have little to no background. It takes a lifetime.
Title: Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
Post by: matt e on February 20, 2008, 11:12:19 am
I have studied intensely many religious beliefs, and customs from around the world. Some of the things being taught by those who do not have the right or knowledge to do so is scary. this is my first post, as I was reading the board, I felt I had to point out something.

  Yes, many cultures around the world had rituals/ceremonies similar to the american indian sweatlodge. No one has denied this. The problem is that the person in question is claiming to do a sweat lodge in the tradition of the american indians, which he has no right to do.

  Yes, if you are celtic, and wish to revive the old ways, then that would be fine. but, being polish, you would not have the right to revive it, as it is part of the celtic peoples history and spirituality.

  In all cultures, in order to be able to practice a ceremony, the person must first be taught by someone from that tradition who themselves learned from another. A person cannot just decide that they are going to become one. Yes, some of the various cultures do share some information about ceremonies, but it is just general information and does not mean you can use it to start performing them. It is the information they do not share that is vital to the ceremonies and without this information, some ceremonies will not work, and some can be very dangerous.
 
 Just because you read the writings, or hang out with a hindu holy man, that does not mean you have the right to go out and start teaching those things to others. Just because a mexican goes to europe and says he has been taught the ways of the feathered serpent and has been authorized to teach it to everyone, does not make it so.

$115 US is not much? lets say he does 3 workshops 1 day each, with a total attendance of 200 people each. that is 115x600=   $69,000 US.  (I think I am in the wrong business  ;)  )
That is a lot of money for teaching things that he has neither enough knowledge or the right to be teaching. Using native names for ceremonies, to get people to come to them, even if he is using the name only and the ceremony has nothing to do with the actual native ceremony, is fraud, and taking advantage of people who spend money they do not have, to satisfy a spiritual hunger that these decievers offer to feed. (I know I don't have 115 dollars laying around to waste on something like this)
 
  Now on the referenced website, it claims this person does ceremonies and refers to them as american indian ceremonies, dresses in a tv western indian costume, then claims not to be representing himself as a teacher of their ceremonies?
 
        In this case, the offer to participate in a ceremony from a particular culture is offered, the culture referenced has made the statement "you are not authorized to perform this ceremony, stop doing so".  It is simple,  nothing to misunderstand.