NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Winston on May 22, 2010, 01:42:25 pm
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How accurate is "Dances with Wolves" in its depiction of Native Americans?
I talked to a NA jewelry seller just outside of Las Vegas and she said it was fairly accurate.
Your views?
Also, back in 2006 I drove through the Navajolands in Arizona looking for some Native American culture. But all I found were tables selling jewelry and pottery, expensive hotels, beautiful canyons, and some museums. Was I looking in the wrong place? How does one really experience Native American culture?
Here are some pics of the beautiful Navajolands I drove through:
http://www.happierabroad.com/Southwest_Photos.htm
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Ah so, a jewelry seller outside Las Vegas said it was accurate....
How did she come to be an authority on Plains cultures of some 150 years ago? I mean Las Vegas is not exactly Plains area, to begin with.
Perhaps you'd like to read this:
http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/nc.htm
And regarding the "depiction of Native Americans", there were more than 500 ndn nations pre contact, and there was a large variety of cultures as well, not just the Plains cultures DWW shows a part of. So, no, DWW *cannot* be "fairly accurate" in depicting Native Americans, even if what DWW shows was correct for one of the Plains cultures.
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Dear Winston,
Regarding your comment:
". . . I drove through the Navajolands in Arizona looking for some Native American culture. But all I found were tables selling jewelry and pottery, expensive hotels, beautiful canyons, and some museums. Was I looking in the wrong place? How does one really experience Native American culture?"
Unless you are able to talk to the rocks and trees, I would suggest that the best way to learn about Native cultures is to talk to Native persons who live by their cultural ways. Your pictures of Navajo lands don't include any of the beautiful Navajo people that the Creator put there. It's strange that you mention "tables of jewelry and pottery" but not the people who were standing/sitting at those tables and selling these items.
Is it possible that you traveled to someone's country (Navajo homelands) without first being invited, therefore you did not have any friends to visit there? And if you went as a "tourist", did you take any opportunities to meet people from the territories that you were traveling in? For me, when I look at your pictures, it appears that you traveled to Navajo territories but didn't engage with the people at all - except for the few non-Native looking people in your pictures.
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How accurate is Dances with Wolves in its depiction of Native Americans?
I talked to a NA jewelry seller just outside of Las Vegas and she said it was fairly accurate.
Your views?
I thought it was a bit romanticized of plains tribes.
Also, when you asked her and answered, did you ask her what tribe she was from?
Also, back in 2006 I drove through the Navajolands in Arizona looking for some Native American culture. But all I found were tables selling jewelry and pottery, expensive hotels, beautiful canyons, and some museums. Was I looking in the wrong place? How does one really experience Native American culture?
Here are some pics of the beautiful Navajolands I drove through:
http://www.happierabroad.com/Southwest_Photos.htm
When you go as a tourist to locations, you will see tourist things.
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I cannot even think about DWW without getting furious about the stunt that Costner regarding the development of his casino on sacred land.
Utterly disgusting.
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DWW succeeds as a movie, but it shouldn’t be taken as a snapshot of Plains culture and its people, and certainly not of all Native Americans. The effectiveness of any story relies on its telling. Lackluster stories can be made great and riveting stories can be made boring, it all depends on how they’re presented. DWW has some remarkable storytelling – brilliant cast, camera work, score, scenery, etc. – but at the core the story is unoriginal and as wrought with stereotype as any other Hollywood film.
Watch the film again and take note of John Dunbar’s prominence in scenes where he isn’t actually physically present… It makes it clear just how much this is NOT a story of native peoples.
If you want to watch films about Native Americans, I suggest seeing the ones that are produced by them. Dance Me Outside, Smoke Signals, Skins, and Imprint are ones I’ve seen. All really good.
And I agree with what has been said here about Navajolands. You “experience” NA culture by getting to know people. The Navajo folks I know are some of the coolest people ever.
I cannot even think about DWW without getting furious about the stunt that Costner regarding the development of his casino on sacred land.
Utterly disgusting.
I never heard what became of that, do you know?
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I never heard what became of that, do you know?
I think that the plans for the casino and associated railroad were eventually abandoned. There was a lot of opposition to the plans, as you can imagine. I only know from reading about it on the internet. I think that he bought a lot of bronze buffalo sculptures that were meant to be a part of it and I think I can remember reading about them being located somewhere that would have been near to the casino had it been built.
Just the very idea that Costner could create a film like DWW and then go on to plan the development of a casino on sacred land is outrageous IMO, whether it was built or not.
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Ah so, a jewelry seller outside Las Vegas said it was accurate....
How did she come to be an authority on Plains cultures of some 150 years ago? I mean Las Vegas is not exactly Plains area, to begin with.
Perhaps you'd like to read this:
http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/nc.htm
And regarding the "depiction of Native Americans", there were more than 500 ndn nations pre contact, and there was a large variety of cultures as well, not just the Plains cultures DWW shows a part of. So, no, DWW *cannot* be "fairly accurate" in depicting Native Americans, even if what DWW shows was correct for one of the Plains cultures.
Well then is DWW an accurate depiction of the Sioux tribe then? I heard that the film was originally supposed to be about the Lakotas. But due to problems, they could not shoot it in the Lakota plains, so they had to move it somewhere else where the Sioux tribe was.
Did you all at least LIKE the film?
What films about NA's would you recommend?
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Dear Winston,
Regarding your comment:
". . . I drove through the Navajolands in Arizona looking for some Native American culture. But all I found were tables selling jewelry and pottery, expensive hotels, beautiful canyons, and some museums. Was I looking in the wrong place? How does one really experience Native American culture?"
Unless you are able to talk to the rocks and trees, I would suggest that the best way to learn about Native cultures is to talk to Native persons who live by their cultural ways. Your pictures of Navajo lands don't include any of the beautiful Navajo people that the Creator put there. It's strange that you mention "tables of jewelry and pottery" but not the people who were standing/sitting at those tables and selling these items.
Is it possible that you traveled to someone's country (Navajo homelands) without first being invited, therefore you did not have any friends to visit there? And if you went as a "tourist", did you take any opportunities to meet people from the territories that you were traveling in? For me, when I look at your pictures, it appears that you traveled to Navajo territories but didn't engage with the people at all - except for the few non-Native looking people in your pictures.
Well I didn't know any beforehand. I just thought I'd show up and get to know them on the spot. But they seemed really shy and reserved, even in their own towns, so it didn't feel natural to try to engage them if they didn't want to engage me. I did chat with some selling those big pieces of bread though. A lot of them did not want me to take their picture. They were kind of private about that.
Should I have made some friends online first before going there? If so, through what websites? Is there a social networking site for NA's that allows non-NA's?
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Well then is DWW an accurate depiction of the Sioux tribe then?
Did you read the article I linked for you? It was written by a Lakota.
http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/nc.htm
I heard that the film was originally supposed to be about the Lakotas. But due to problems, they could not shoot it in the Lakota plains, so they had to move it somewhere else where the Sioux tribe was.
I'm not certain whether I understand this correctly.... 'Lakota' is the name these people have for themselves, 'Sioux' is what the white people called them, taking the term from a neighbouring ethnic group and shortening it. So Lakota and Sioux is the same.
The book was different - it's John Dunbar meeting the Numumu (Comanche).
If you saw the film, the you probably remember the scene when the old chief speaks to Dunbar that they were going to deal with the new white people who arrived. He takes a Spanish helmet out of a blanket and says, these were the first who came and we got rid of them. This of course is only 'accurate' when the ndns are supposed to be Numunu.
Did you all at least LIKE the film?
What would this say about the film, or in favour of the film?
If I remember correctly, the replies you got so far point at the film not being accurate. Still you ask 'us all', i.e. including ndn members of this forum, whether we 'at least' liked the film? Like, okay, so the film wasn'rt accurate, there are these misrepresentations of Lakota culture, okay, and the language is not correct, but yeah sure, we liked the film? You can't be serious.
What films about NA's would you recommend?
You cannot 'learn' about ndns from a film, or even from many films.
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Winston,
First as for DWW, I believe it was shot around South Dakota, which is Lakota lands. Lakota are part of what is the Sioux Nation. Somewhere else on these boards Earth has explained all the different bands.
As for the movie itself, the good thing about it was it employed Ndn's, and thats all.
The better films to watch would be as Weber pointed out, but look for films written / directed by Ndn 's like Sherman Alexie.
As for making friends, lots of ways to do that, but don't expect it to happen overnight.
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Should I have made some friends online first before going there? If so, through what websites? Is there a social networking site for NA's that allows non-NA's?
Winston, if you want to make friends, great, but it is no prerequisite for a holiday spent wherever.
There are enough forums where white persons are welcome and you can google them - just beware of the Wanabi forums.
When you joined a forum with an ndn majority: please behave. There are different values and codes of behaviour to observe than among white persons.
First of all, when you join, please write an introduction before getting active in the boards of that forum.
Second: do not bounce into various discussions there with the attitude of 'I know it all'. You'll be speaking to ndns there, so don't assume you know more about them than they do themselves. It is also considered rude (and 'mighty white') to join and behave like a loudmouth.
Third: being able to listen before one speaks is held high as a social value. So don't bounce in with a multitude of questions that were probably answered in that forum already and therefore you could have saved bandwidth by reading.
Fourth (as this is not exactly a combination all white people will think of): don't just listen, but also think.
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^ I am so guilty of about half of that. :D
I think that the plans for the casino and associated railroad were eventually abandoned. There was a lot of opposition to the plans, as you can imagine. I only know from reading about it on the internet. I think that he bought a lot of bronze buffalo sculptures that were meant to be a part of it and I think I can remember reading about them being located somewhere that would have been near to the casino had it been built.
Just the very idea that Costner could create a film like DWW and then go on to plan the development of a casino on sacred land is outrageous IMO, whether it was built or not.
I only knew about it from the internet too. I googled and found this article, it has some more on how the casino business failed as well as the bison sculptures.
http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/a-13-a-2003-08-23-6-Actor-66860232.html
Website for "Tatanka: Story of the Bison" project.
http://storyofthebison.com/index.htm
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Dr. Blair Rudes stated in an interview in an issue of Alumni Magazine UB Today (University of Buffalo)
That People have pointed out that The Men who spoke Lakota in the film were speaking a female Dialect.
in My own view that is because the one of the main Language Teachers for the film was Doris Leader Charge.
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This hasn't been mentioned yet. The film was pretty racist in its depiction of the Pawnee, as bad as any western from the 50s. For me the only good thing about the film was that it showed Natives as all too human. The characters tell jokes and make mistakes. When did Hollywood ever show Natives that way before?
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Lots of people got jobs. That's about it.
Oh, and once it came out the number of pretendians began to multiply exponentially.
Lots of people now think they "understand Indians" based on that work of fiction. And while it was good to see lots of NDN actors get work, and play roles that had some dignity to them, the movie still relied on the old, racist myth that Indigenous people need a white man to ride in and save them. At least this white man worked *with* the NDNs, but it was still a story about a white man.
What films about NA's would you recommend?
I wouldn't recommend any films by outsiders "about" people. I'd recommend films by NDNs. Check out this post: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2365.0
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If you saw the film, the you probably remember the scene when the old chief speaks to Dunbar that they were going to deal with the new white people who arrived. He takes a Spanish helmet out of a blanket and says, these were the first who came and we got rid of them. This of course is only 'accurate' when the ndns are supposed to be Numunu.
When I saw that part, I thought they were just referring to the romanticized journey of Francisco Vasquez de Coronado (which he was mostly lost of what is now the southwest and great plains of the united states).
Should I have made some friends online first before going there? If so, through what websites? Is there a social networking site for NA's that allows non-NA's?
It just happens. You can't go somewhere and except someone will become your friend online.
But just like Coronado, you will be stubborn and all we will do is point north.
The characters tell jokes and make mistakes. When did Hollywood ever show Natives that way before?
Little Big Man? LOL. JK.
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Oh I should have been on line ;D
1st mistake not know who we are as a people.
We are Lakota-Dakota-Nakota people the government
calls us Sioux (mean little snakes or adder) a word for
an enemy. Our lands are vast, North Dakota Soth Dakota
Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, Minnesota , Iowa, Wisconsin and
three Canadia province.
Now to Dance Without Wolves
It was shoot in South Dakota many of our people were in the film.
It was suppose to be about the Cheyenne but changed to due
to location of the buffalo herd. The story changed to the Lakota (Sioux).
Did i say story----it is a story--wrote by a white man.
It was nice to see they included our humor and a little of our way of life.
But it was not a story about us. We never had a great white leader nor did
we accept them as leaders.
Our way of life is so important to us that we must keep it to ourself as you can
see from this website there are people who are abusing our culture everyday.
The Navajo-Dine people are very traditional people who speak their language
and live their culture. But culture is not show to tourist, you can buy jewerly
you can learn about our people in museum but the real people keep to themselves.
We are people not things for people to look at.
The white man refuse to understand the cultural difference of our people like eye contact
it is considered rude and a good person does not look anyone in the eyes as form of respect
but your culture stare at everyone, the eye contact is form of aggression to us.
Dances with wolves is not the answer to our culture
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The white man refuse to understand the cultural difference of our people like eye contact
it is considered rude and a good person does not look anyone in the eyes as form of respect
but your culture stare at everyone, the eye contact is form of aggression to us.
Dances with wolves is not the answer to our culture
Interesting how the eye contact thing can vary... I'm white American, so I was definitely raised with that idea that eye contact is a form of respect. There is still a line though, too much can make us feel uncomfortable as well. I have a Hawaiian friend who REALLY keeps unflinching eye contact while speaking, and after a while it can feel a bit like a staring contest, haha. I'm not sure if that's a Hawaiian thing or just him though. He grew up in Hawaii but moved to Utah later, so for all I know he's trying to adapt to our custom but is overdoing it a bit.
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Should I have made some friends online first before going there? If so, through what websites? Is there a social networking site for NA's that allows non-NA's?
It just happens. You can't go somewhere and except someone will become your friend online.
Winston, what would you think if someone joined a website and wrote this sort of stuff: "Where can I meet some white people in New York? I really like white people. I'm coming to New York and would like some white people to hang out with. Hi, white person, you're white so I want to learn about you. Can I come over to your house for dinner? I've heard white people like to have dinner. I've seen a lot of white people on the street but none of them have invited me to dinner. Can you take me to temple with you and introduce me to all your relatives?"
What about, "Can I take pictures of you and put them on my website? Will you introduce me to your priest and have him baptise me into your cool religion while I'm there? What did you say it was, again? Jewish? Mormon? Islamic? I really admire your culture. Is Yentl an accurate portrayal of White culture? What? Why did you stop answering my emails? You must be racist."
What would you think of someone who did that?
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Dances with Wolves has its problems, but still deserves mention as the first and only film with Native Americans as the subject that was a blockbuster success. Even though it's about Plains tribes exclusively it did a lot to bring Native Americans into the limelight for a short while. However, this success has also been balanced out with the culture vultures who used it to forward romanticized stereotypes of all Native peoples for financial gain. In short, the problem of frauds and plastic shamans blew up in the 90's because of the unprecedented success.
I've seen a professor on youtube giving a lecture on movies about Natives and he describes the timeline of Native American subject movies with DWW as the hub calling it "B.C." (Before Costner) and "A.D." (After Dances with Wolves).
I will say this...DWW was the best effort, up to that date, of producing Natives on film as accurately as possible by non-Native producers. It was followed up with other subsequently with other decent films (Geronimo, Last of the Mohicans, etc) and opened the door for Native produced films about Natives (Smoke Signals, Dance Me Outside, etc)
However, the depictions of Lakotas and Pawnees lost something in the translation to the final edit of the film and, in the end, contained an age old narrative of a non-Native protagonist saving the Natives...a narrative that continues to be popular to this day (i.e. Avatar).
Superdog
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I'm curious to know if anyone here has seen "Dreamkeeper", the movie about a grandfather and grandson who travel to an "all nations" powwow ceremony and what they thought about it. I've heard some Natives say that it was corny and overproduced.
As for the original poster, I don't think he did his research. Before I traveled to Navajo country I searched online out of a desire to assist anyone in need. I happened upon a website that was looking for outsiders to come to the land and help the elders (and families) out in any way possible. So after connecting with a family, I drove to their property and stayed with them temporarily doing work for them. They also performed ceremonies for me and we became friends and I keep in touch with them to this day. Never did I take anything for granted. I always did the listening, talked very little, and learned whatever I could. That's one thing I believe white people (I'm white) are weak with: being able to truly listen and look at things from another's perspective. To be honest, I ran into several white people on the Navajo/Hopi reservation, and except for 1 (who was a woman) they ALL had a negative vibe about them. I suspect that they've been greatly affected by the culture they come from.
I went to the reservation to be among Native people, yes. But I went to be of service, not to take. It just happens that being there changed me forever in a positive way. Being a "Native in a white man's body" (how corny, I know) is a horror in both the white world AND the Native world. However I would take feeling like an outsider in the Native world any day before having to spend the rest of eternity in the white culture's world. At least Native people might give you a chance. I still have much to learn, I know.
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Do you really think John Dunbar saved the Natives or did the Lakota save the white man? Without the friendship and support of the village, Dunbar wouldn't have survived. That's how I interpreted the story.
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Should I have made some friends online first before going there? If so, through what websites? Is there a social networking site for NA's that allows non-NA's?
It just happens. You can't go somewhere and except someone will become your friend online.
Winston, what would you think if someone joined a website and wrote this sort of stuff: "Where can I meet some white people in New York? I really like white people. I'm coming to New York and would like some white people to hang out with. Hi, white person, you're white so I want to learn about you. Can I come over to your house for dinner? I've heard white people like to have dinner. I've seen a lot of white people on the street but none of them have invited me to dinner. Can you take me to temple with you and introduce me to all your relatives?"
What about, "Can I take pictures of you and put them on my website? Will you introduce me to your priest and have him baptise me into your cool religion while I'm there? What did you say it was, again? Jewish? Mormon? Islamic? I really admire your culture. Is Yentl an accurate portrayal of White culture? What? Why did you stop answering my emails? You must be racist."
What would you think of someone who did that?
It would be fine with me. Honestly. I am very inclusive and joined up with www.couchsurfing.com, a place where strangers host each other out of hospitality and sharing. I have been to 12 countries and found most countries to be very open and inclusive. Some nations are more reserved (e.g. Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc.) but the majority are pretty socially open and inclusive and easy to meet strangers in.
If I get an email to my Couchsurfing profile, I usually will host the person and show them around. But that's me. I'm not reserved nor do I like an isolated existence.
That being said, I do apologize for not introducing myself here first. I came here because I was mentioned by educatedindian in the thread about William Two Feather in this forum. So since I was already mentioned, I felt it was ok to just show up and tell everyone that I am Winston, the guy who had the blog page about William Two Feather and forum thread about him, that was mentioned here, and that would be enough.
After I posted in that thread, I came here to ask a question about DWW that I was curious about. I did not mean to seem rude.
I did not come here and say "I am the best. Everyone listen to me!" I merely ask questions and share opinions. That seems the civil and intelligent way to communicate. I do listen to answers too and consider them. So I don't understand how I can seem loud mouthed, arrogant, or nonlistening here.
But alas, I grew up in California, where loudness and aggression/assertiveness and being upfront is seen as strength, and humility seen as weakness. So my personality is not that of a reserved meek Asian. I am a Chinese American with a Western white personality inside. And as such, I've always had a problem fitting in, cause white Americans will see me as Asian, and Asians will see me as a freak, having an Asian face with a "white personality".
In Taiwan, some consider me rude too, for being direct and upfront. They can accept white Americans being that way, cause they are foreigners. But they do not like to see Chinese faces of their own kind acting "white". So I am not well accepted or liked there, even though I was born there and came to the US when I was 3.
I do best in socially open and wild camaraderie countries like Latin America, Russia, The Philippines, and some parts of Europe. There I don't need to be quiet and reserved.
What's funny is that in California, I was considered timid, weak, and a pushover who needs to get a backbone. But in Asia, I am considered too aggressive, too assertive and direct. It seems I can't win. lol
Like I said, people can accept a white man acting like a white man, or an asian man acting like an asian man, but they are uncomfortable with asian men acting like white men. In the modern US society it's ok and normal now, as American culture expects immigrants to assimilate. But in Asia, it's seen as freakish and not expected.
People like to categorize things. So in Taiwan and in the Philippines, people assume that I can read and write Chinese fluently, and speak better Chinese than English, even though I grew up in the US, simply cause I'm racially Chinese. There is no logical reason why I should read and write Chinese, or speak it better than English, since I was educated completely in the US. But people still assume it cause they expect every person to act like their race/ethnicity.
Anyway, as to DWW, no film is perfect, but at least it made ndns look like the good guys whom people sympathize with, for once. And brought a lot more genuineness to ndns. And it portrayed the greedy white settlers for what they were.
The History Channel also has many great programs about ndns history.
Btw, I don't see how Dunbar saved the tribes. If anything, he caused them trouble cause the army would use him as an excuse to look for them, after that battle in the river.
One question: In DWW, a guy in the tribe took Dunbar's hat and said it was his cause he found it. So we take it that if you drop something or leave it somewhere, and someone else finds it, then it's theirs. Is that accurate of ndns mentality and ways?
Speaking of eye contact, I hate how some white people get mad if you don't look at their eyes while they are talking, and will scold you for it. This is worse when they talk for hours about one thing, blabbing on about nothing, and get mad if you interrupt them, so you are basically told to look at them while they blab on for an hour and not look elsewhere and not interrupt. I hate people like that. But they exist. Just one question and they talk on and on and never stop, never coming to a point.
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I'm curious to know if anyone here has seen "Dreamkeeper", the movie about a grandfather and grandson who travel to an "all nations" powwow ceremony and what they thought about it. I've heard some Natives say that it was corny and overproduced.
As for the original poster, I don't think he did his research. Before I traveled to Navajo country I searched online out of a desire to assist anyone in need. I happened upon a website that was looking for outsiders to come to the land and help the elders (and families) out in any way possible. So after connecting with a family, I drove to their property and stayed with them temporarily doing work for them. They also performed ceremonies for me and we became friends and I keep in touch with them to this day. Never did I take anything for granted. I always did the listening, talked very little, and learned whatever I could. That's one thing I believe white people (I'm white) are weak with: being able to truly listen and look at things from another's perspective. To be honest, I ran into several white people on the Navajo/Hopi reservation, and except for 1 (who was a woman) they ALL had a negative vibe about them. I suspect that they've been greatly affected by the culture they come from.
I went to the reservation to be among Native people, yes. But I went to be of service, not to take. It just happens that being there changed me forever in a positive way. Being a "Native in a white man's body" (how corny, I know) is a horror in both the white world AND the Native world. However I would take feeling like an outsider in the Native world any day before having to spend the rest of eternity in the white culture's world. At least Native people might give you a chance. I still have much to learn, I know.
As a white person in an Asian body, I know what you mean :) I know what it's like to be caught in between and not accepted by either side.
So how did you find this family online? On what website?
When I drove through Navajoland, I also saw many hitchhikers on the road. I wanted to pick them up so I could talk to them. But I was scared cause we are taught that it's dangerous to pick up hitchhikers. Should I have done so? Is it safe to do so there?
Later on when I was camping out in Arizona near Flagstaff, a white guy I talked to camping in an SUV told me that the ndns nowadays only want money and that if I wanted to befriend them or wanted to see them act "spiritual", I'd have to pay them first. He said melodramatically, "They'll get spiritual with you, if you PAY them!" Where did he get that impression from? Do many whites have that impression? Is it cause some ndns people go to tourist areas and constantly ask tourists for donations and money?
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Later on when I was camping out in Arizona near Flagstaff, a white guy I talked to camping in an SUV told me that the ndns nowadays only want money and that if I wanted to befriend them or wanted to see them act "spiritual", I'd have to pay them first. He said melodramatically, "They'll get spiritual with you, if you PAY them!" Where did he get that impression from? Do many whites have that impression? Is it cause some ndns people go to tourist areas and constantly ask tourists for donations and money?
Yes.
That's the ticket!
If you really want to bond with NDN people the best way to do it is to listen to the ramblings of a white person who has no idea what he is talking about.
Then, for added effect, go to a website run by NDN people and their allies and just repeat the racist crap he told you as if it was in some way meaningful.
seriously
If you spent some time paying attention to the threads on this site about frauds who pretend to be NDN and who demand pay to pray then you would not have to ask such stupid and offensive questions.
I'm a rich person trapped in a poor person's body by the way.
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Later on when I was camping out in Arizona near Flagstaff, a white guy I talked to camping in an SUV told me that the ndns nowadays only want money and that if I wanted to befriend them or wanted to see them act "spiritual", I'd have to pay them first. He said melodramatically, "They'll get spiritual with you, if you PAY them!" Where did he get that impression from? Do many whites have that impression? Is it cause some ndns people go to tourist areas and constantly ask tourists for donations and money?
Stop your racist bullshit right now. Why on earth do you think that sort of crap would be appropriate to say here? You should be ashamed of yourself.
As for your other ridiculous questions, you've been so rude that no one is going to trust you with anything.
Apologize for your racist swill or you're out of here.
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Actually, who needs it. Winston, you are now blocked for 30 days. During that time you can read up and learn to have some respect. If when you come back you still haven't figured it out, you're out of here for good.
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Good morning everybody (at least, here it 10,40 a.m. :))
About the first question "how accurate is DWW in its depiction etc. etc.", I would like to share here a couple of "technical" comments heard from Lakota friends (about deeper and important issues they share Earthw7's, Smoky's, Piya's, Kathryn's views):
1) language: the "women language" spoken by men in the movie is actually due to the fact that - as ny1 mentioned - they learned it from Doris Little Charge
2) clothes: in the movie Lakotas wear buckskin clothes only, which is inaccurate.
Since they started trading with whites (1825 - 1830), Lakotas started use mostly fabric clothes, being them much easier to make. In 1863, when in the movie Dunbar meets the Lakotas, in daily life they were actually wearing fabric more than buckskin
Hope this can be of some use
Camilla
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I was born and raised in Flagstaff, Arizona. I grew up and went to school with children of Hopi and Navajo descent as well as mixed heritage, spending 18 plus years doing so. No, I wasn't adopted or initiated into their culture, I didn't get invited or try to go see any ceremonies, I wasn't told any secrets or special knowledge, and all of that was and is okay because I'm not of their culture, and I respected their privacy and sovereignty. However, I cherish the time I had with those whom befriended me as a person to a person. I like to think we taught each other about how things could be. Ironically, because of who I am (different topic), I found that I could appreciate the racism they faced every day, intentional and otherwise. If you want to get to know a culture while touring or on vacation, barging in, especially to indigenous cultures, isn't the way. It would be akin to some stranger barging into your home and immediately demanding to know all about you and "your kind" including your deepest religious beliefs and bedroom secrets because you only have four days left before you have to go home. As you alluded to earlier in your post about people making assumptions about you because of your heritage, even if they were inclined to share, what makes you think they are all the same or have the same ideals, beliefs, or values? And taking at face value "information" from someone clearly not of the culture in question? Any number of racist comments I have heard about nearly any culture come to mind. Those whom are not of the culture should never be presumed to know anything about it until proven otherwise. You were unfortunate enough to meet up with a racist. I feel lucky and privileged because as a child growing up, I had no preconceptions and was free to develop my own mindset about the Hopi and the Navajo, and, because I had no preconceptions, they taught me.
Courtesy and respect gets you a longs ways in any nation or culture.
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Just a note about this comment from Camilla:
Good morning everybody (at least, here it 10,40 a.m. :))
1) language: the "women language" spoken by men in the movie is actually due to the fact that - as ny1 mentioned - they learned it from Doris Little Charge
My husband, who is Sicangu Lakota and a fluent speaker, disagrees with this statement and says the late Dr. Blair Rudes must not be a Lakota speaker. Also, there is no such person as Doris Little Charge - you have misquoted the name.
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I should say that in the original story where I found the point about the Feminine Dialect Dr. Rudes did not state in any way that it was incorrect for Men to speak the feminine dialect.
according to the Article From the UB today Alumni Magazine (University of Buffalo)
" it is well known that the native dialogue took a glaring wrong turn in that film". but Dr. Rudes didn't work on the film himself.
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Just a note about this comment from Camilla:
Good morning everybody (at least, here it 10,40 a.m. :))
1) language: the "women language" spoken by men in the movie is actually due to the fact that - as ny1 mentioned - they learned it from Doris Little Charge
My husband, who is Sicangu Lakota and a fluent speaker, disagrees with this statement and says the late Dr. Blair Rudes must not be a Lakota speaker. Also, there is no such person as Doris Little Charge - you have misquoted the name.
Nice day to everybody.
Hi Ska. At first sorry for the late answer: for a while I didn't have any chance to visit the forum.
As for Mrs. Leader Charge name you are right: I made a mistake. I was actually meaning Doris Leader Charge (I wrote "Little" instead of "Leader"). But I'm pretty sure that - in spite of my mistake - you and your husband perfectly understood whom I was meaning, since Mrs. Leader Charge was one of the most wonderful characters in the movie (Pretty Shield) and a very well known and respected teacher at Sinte Gleska.
About the language spoken in the movie, I just shared what some Lakotas told me. That's it. I leave it to Lakota language speakers.
By the way, also my former husband is a Sicangu Lakota, family lives in St. Francis, other relatives in Mission. Some relatives are from Standing Rock and they live up North.
May be one day we can have coffee together there! Take care!
:)
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I'm saying what Russell Means already said when it was reality that the Lakota warriors owned the Pawnees as the Pawnees were having
their lands overrun by settlers and removed eastern tribes and were forced to join the US Cavalry as scouts against the Lakota warriors.
The Lakota people would've never needed assistance from Wasichus to know how to fight as it was shown in the movie. Look at the
Fetterman Massacre and Little Bighorn. Lakota warriors needed assistance from no one except at Little Bighorn where they had the
assistance of the Cheyenne and Arapaho warriors there.
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lol they made kevin costner talk in a ladies delect