NAFPS Forum
General => Frauds => Topic started by: AlessandroItaly on January 26, 2007, 12:01:33 pm
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http://www.swnkacangi.com/index.html
What is your opinion on Leonard Crow Dog? I have conflicting information on he...
Thanks
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What do you want to know? I have met Leonard. He is who he says he is.
As for that website, I don't know what to say. It's a Japanese site and all the contact info is in Japan. They don't say where any of these "donations" are going. So who knows... I'll watch the trailer and get back to you though.
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I am just commenting on the website here....but the links under "Lame Deer" promote sweats for sale in Germany. (Maybe you know of some of them, Ingeborg?) >:(
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I am just commenting on the website here....but the links under "Lame Deer" promote sweats for sale in Germany. (Maybe you know of some of them, Ingeborg?)
One of the links opens the site of Jo (Joachim) Irmer, the one who says he is a Blackfoot bishop and the highest ranking ndn rep in Europe.
More sweats are offered by a person named Karl-Heinz (Pollux must be just a nickname) in Northern Germany, and Thomas Geldner and Michi Schindler offering sweats in Austria. No prices mentioned.
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Crow Dog is no fraud. At one time he was medicine man for AIM at the Wounded Knee standoff. But he has a terrible record of endorsing or defending frauds like Michael Hull and Mary Grimes/"Mary Thunder". He also lets just about anyone come to Crow Dog's Paradise, including many outsiders who then turn around and set themselves up as sweatlodge sellers. That's probably how those German sweatlodge sellers in the links got trained.
The Lame Deer link could be from Archie Lame Deer's group in Germany, who sold sweats for 666 euros each. (I don't know why they chose that amount, but it struck me that they were making fun of Christians.) Archie has passed on, but his son is still in Germany and grew up there. To me it's sad, since his grandfather, John Lame Deer, was a greatly respected man.
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That's probably how those German sweatlodge sellers in the links got trained.
As far as I can see, they claim to have been trained by Archie Fire Lame Deer. Further contacts are Morris Crow and Pablo Russell.
The duebbekold link list is very interesting, as they also link to sites of people definitely against selling ceremonies, like NAAoG (Native American Association of Germany), as one example, and to serious projects like Peltier Defense or ethnological museums.
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The duebbekold link list is very interesting, as they also link to sites of people definitely against selling ceremonies, like NAAoG (Native American Association of Germany), as one example, and to serious projects like Peltier Defense or ethnological museums.
That is a common way to do it. Some exploiters linked to our website just to seem legitimate.
Morris Crow must be the number one "trainer of exploiters" in Europe. His name is everywhere and nons refer to him as "My Elder" or "My Sundanceleader".
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I am just commenting on the website here....but the links under "Lame Deer" promote sweats for sale in Germany. (Maybe you know of some of them, Ingeborg?)
One of the links opens the site of Jo (Joachim) Irmer, the one who says he is a Blackfoot bishop and the highest ranking ndn rep in Europe.
More sweats are offered by a person named Karl-Heinz (Pollux must be just a nickname) in Northern Germany, and Thomas Geldner and Michi Schindler offering sweats in Austria. No prices mentioned.
i know thomas geldner and michi schindler. they are from the lamedeer "group" i had my first sweat with the late archie lame deer....at that time it was ok. later i found out that they started to charge money for the sweat...so i stopped going there...now archies son john fire lame deer goes to europe and does the same as his dad did.
i saw thomas also at crow dogs sundance.
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Crow Dog is no fraud. At one time he was medicine man for AIM at the Wounded Knee standoff. But he has a terrible record of endorsing or defending frauds like Michael Hull and Mary Grimes/"Mary Thunder". He also lets just about anyone come to Crow Dog's Paradise, including many outsiders who then turn around and set themselves up as sweatlodge sellers. That's probably how those German sweatlodge sellers in the links got trained.
The Lame Deer link could be from Archie Lame Deer's group in Germany, who sold sweats for 666 euros each. (I don't know why they chose that amount, but it struck me that they were making fun of Christians.) Archie has passed on, but his son is still in Germany and grew up there. To me it's sad, since his grandfather, John Lame Deer, was a greatly respected man.
sorry there is a lil mistake....archies son, john did not grew up in germany....but i met him when he was about 10 or 12 years old in austria. but archie has a son in austria....his name is dario and he grows up with his mam in vienna.
then i heard there is also a son in switzerland somewhere.
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Crow Dog is no fraud. At one time he was medicine man for AIM at the Wounded Knee standoff. But he has a terrible record of endorsing or defending frauds like Michael Hull and Mary Grimes/"Mary Thunder". He also lets just about anyone come to Crow Dog's Paradise, including many outsiders who then turn around and set themselves up as sweatlodge sellers. That's probably how those German sweatlodge sellers in the links got trained.
The Lame Deer link could be from Archie Lame Deer's group in Germany, who sold sweats for 666 euros each. (I don't know why they chose that amount, but it struck me that they were making fun of Christians.) Archie has passed on, but his son is still in Germany and grew up there. To me it's sad, since his grandfather, John Lame Deer, was a greatly respected man.
and as for leonard crow dog...he is real.....i saw his power with my own eyes....at the sundance. leonard is also my sons grandpa....he is my husbands uncle and cousins....from both sides (mam and dad)yes crow dog is very respected here on the rosebud rez....we were also at the furneral of leonards sister dina......there were a lot of people. my husband always says leonard may do some crazy stuff but he is a real medicin man....trough his bloodline. and thats only a few and they are all related in the lakota nation.
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I attended the Native American funeral cerimony for Jay Silverheels in Los Angeles in the 70's and there were some non-Natives invited there too. I have participated in Sweats by Ernie Peters or Ernie Longwalker after having walked across the US in protest to proposed anti-Reservation legislation. Enie includes non-Native participants. Archie Fire Lame Deer and Leonard Crow Dog include non-Natives in their cerimonies. There have been many that have opened up to those non-Natives that show an interest in our ways especially ecologically and spiritually.
Since I have experienced this first hand I will make some comments. Non-Natives long ago were forced from earth magic, the magic of the universe, the magic of the sun, woods, water. Their religions forced all people to obey a worship not because it was pleasing to God but because it was pleasing politically to their leaders. Their leaders controlled the access to earth magic and subsequently forgot how to get in touch with it.
Many Native Americans never left the Earth Magic, we never abandoned our true selves and many that did abandon their true selves have since returned to themselves. It is that connection to which makes the grass grow and the winds blow that makes our ways powerful and real.
Yes, there are some powerful world religions that harken the faithful and provide sacred reality. How many priests can actually believe in God and connect to the magic when they are buggering little choir boys behind the pew?
It has been coming for a long time, non-Natives becoming interested in our Earth Magic beliefs. They forced religion upon us, forced missionary boarding schools, forced sterilization on some tribes, abused the Earth People still living free within the Earth Magic as a right proper way. Denied us the ability to keep alive our own beliefs.
My grandmother used to infer that we need to watch out what we feed our neighbor in need because one day we may need them. What she meant to say is that we need to be upright to our neighbor because we choose to be, not because we have to be. If you can give to others when you least can afford it makes you the richest person on earth. These sentiments lost us a continent I would tell my grandma. but she would reply, "the Earth does not care what the other person does, the Earth only cares what you do, what is in your heart, the Earth can and will take away the bounty that America feasts upon but only when America has fulfilled the needs for which it was allowed to exist. So don't ask for anything that is theirs because we are unknowing of the price they will have to pay for what they have done! Find your own way!"
We all knew this lesson once. My father lived it. All his life he looked at money like buffalo. When the spirit wanted, it would bring the opportunity for money, all he had to do was work hard and prepare himself and the buffalo or the dollars would come.
I think we should be loath to criticisize another Native American for sharing with non-Natives even when we have so little of what is ours left. It will make us rich again in the things that have always been ours. Non-Natives have usurped our blessings, our lives, our land but it will not stand forever. We must be prepared, we must prepare ourselves by returning to our real selves without seeking advantages against the Earth but seek to return to our Earth Magic Cultures where we can find the secrets even if only our ancestors now know them.
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nahualqo
I think we should be loath to criticisize another Native American for sharing with non-Natives even when we have so little of what is ours left.
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1083.0 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1083.0)
nahualqo
I have witnessed on this board the calumny of shame directed towards several Lakota medicine people because they have opened their practices to non-Natives.
What I mostly hear people objecting to ,is when non Lakota people are taught Lakota ceremonies to "share" outside of the Lakota community . I don't think these objections are really based on race , though maybe , that is sometimes the easiest way , to define where the line is , and at what point this "sharing" tends to create more harm than good .
In real life ~ not cyber space ~ I have seen and heard just as many objections from non Lakota Indians , when people in their tribe , who are Indian but not Lakota , are taught Lakota ceremonies and endorsed as Spiritual leaders by some of these Lakota Elders who are so enthusiastic to "share" their Lakota traditions outside their tribe . I have heard Leonard Crow Dog's name has come up as having been a "teacher" in a few of these situations .
There is many problems when people are empowered as Spiritual leaders outside of the balance provided by a tribe that knows it's own traditions , whether the people are Native or non native . More than a couple of the non Lakota Native people I know , who were taught Lakota ceremonies to " share " outside the Lakota community , are well known in their own communites to be violent or abusive or just self serving and exploitive . Their own communities aren't at all happy about them being made into Lakota style Spiritual leaders. The recognized Elders in their own communities would never have passed the responsibilites of traditional ceremonies on to them . Usually these people end up doing ceremonies for non natives , because their own communities know they are not trustworthy . Some manage to get a following in their own communities and this leads to more problems because many Elders see this as interfering with passing on intact tribal traditions .
Here is a link to good article on this problem .
http://www.ammsa.com/buffalospirit/June-2000/longarms.html (http://www.ammsa.com/buffalospirit/June-2000/longarms.html)
I don't think " not wanting to share with non natives" is really the problem , though many people try to make it sound like it is . I guess it's easier to argue against protecting ceremonies , if it is claimed it is all about racism , than if it is all about perserving context . And there are many people who want to use traditions for personal gain , be it ego or money , who are threatened by the idea these ceremonies need to be kept in context .
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Some ceremonies I have no problem with outsiders who are family or trusted friends taking part, such as when I see Native vets inviting fellow vets with PTSD to be healed. Even inviting new family has its risks. Over in Austin we have Ike West, who married a Lakota, divorced him, and now sells ceremonies in Texas and Europe.
But Crow Dog is a pretty good example of the dangers. In some cases he invites anyone, the curious, the thrill seekers, and the deluded and the dangerous. Some people who've gone to just a few ceremonies then turn around and set up Ceremonies R Us on their own.
You don't need for whites to take part in a sweat to get whites to become eco friendly. All that will do is attract the worst kinds, people who think a sweat is a cheap fix or worse, a substitute for living a life that treats the earth right.
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I see your point. That is the responsibility of a sweat leader. He is witness and participant with everything that comes out in a sweat. I agree with you on clear cut violations but isn't it the purview of the leader to make those choices? It seems that selling sweats has become a cottage industry. Not a good sign.
Some ceremonies I have no problem with outsiders who are family or trusted friends taking part, such as when I see Native vets inviting fellow vets with PTSD to be healed. Even inviting new family has its risks. Over in Austin we have Ike West, who married a Lakota, divorced him, and now sells ceremonies in Texas and Europe.
But Crow Dog is a pretty good example of the dangers. In some cases he invites anyone, the curious, the thrill seekers, and the deluded and the dangerous. Some people who've gone to just a few ceremonies then turn around and set up Ceremonies R Us on their own.
You don't need for whites to take part in a sweat to get whites to become eco friendly. All that will do is attract the worst kinds, people who think a sweat is a cheap fix or worse, a substitute for living a life that treats the earth right.
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> But Crow Dog is a pretty good example of the dangers. In some cases he invites anyone, the curious, the thrill seekers, and the deluded and the dangerous.
It's interesting to hear this here. In the summer of 2000 I traveled briefly with a man from Austria who I met on the Dineh reservation. He claimed he had come to the States because of a vision he had to become a Sun Dancer (I know, I know...). Evidently, he was permitted to dance somewhere, though the Sun Dance at Camp Anna Mae we attended together upon invite from a mutual acquaintence (who, in retrospect probably had no right to invite us whities since he wasn't NDN himself) wasn't it. I never saw him dance, but he had the scars (which, I realize, could have been self-inflicted) on his chest. He wasn't selling anything (don't know what he's up to these days), didn't strike me as being a nuage fruit, but I was, admittedly, far more naive at the time. I honestly hope he isn't out there selling ceremonies back in Europe, but my sense is that he had a stronger sense of right and wrong in these matters and was quite serious about the path he was on.
At any rate, he wanted to go to Crow Dog's Paradise for a dance that was being held there (the people we were staying with had small posters from CDP about the upcoming event) and also to Wounded Knee, but didn't have a mode of transport. This is where I came in. My companion told me had smoked his sacred pipe and prayed for help, and then I showed up. I had a funky, old Mercury Lynx that was held together with spit and bailing wire (so to speak) and was up for an adventure and for helping someone out on their spiritual path, even if I didn't entirely understand it. I figured I might learn something in the process in addition to seeing some new sights.
Something was amiss when we arrived at Crow Dog's Paradise. When we stopped by the kitchen area to let the hosts know we were there, we were greeted by Leonard and a few members of his family. We offered our help with the preparation, but were graciously declined and invited to make camp. There were some other people we didn't see immediately who were inside one of the tipis, but it was an unmistakable argument, and a heated one. I think there may have been alcohol involved (one of them sounded drunk, and we both got, for lack of a better expression, an alcohol vibe from the exchange), and my travel partner and I were left feeling rather uneasy about staying. We decided to hang around for a little while longer to see how things felt in other parts of the camp, but we eventually decided to travel on because things just didn't feel right.
So, it's interesting to hear that events at CDP are sometimes opened up to anyone and everyone, and, as my experience seems to indicate, not always with the best results.
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This has been a good thread. I can agree with what has been said with the exception of the last post which I feel is blind conjecture.
Leonard is my Leksi (uncle) and he is a good medicine man. Is he also human, yes. Idon't know any of us that hasn't fallen or messed up and after going through that has been better for the lessens learned.
Uncle does not like being looked at as some god or someone that should be placed on a pedestal or something. He does what he does because of his path in this life and he chose to follow it.
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I am all about staying in ones own culture so I was distressed to see Leonard Crow Dog giving out Sundances to Nanticokes. Especially ones that didn't deserve it. I feel the Sundance should be earned if it is given out also. Not just to any "braids and shades dog soldier".
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Hahahahaha I hvae knowen (Uncle Leonard for quite some time and yes he is who he is ,But what he does is K ,sometimes ,But what i would say is that lenoard is truely a Medcine man he is the only man that i know who fasted on top of a Teepee for several days ,He had 14 spirits that was given to him .But with what he has done in the pst he now has 3 or 4 spirits that still remain w/him . I have much respect for him and have been to Crowdogs paradise and saw w/my own eyes of what they call crowdogs circus ...
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Just curious. How would you oknow how many spirits work with a man, I mean truly know? I wouldnt.
ANd piont given there are some things that go on that could be considered cirucs side shows but is that from him or the people that come there?
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A lot of kolas are related to Leonard and my ex is his son (Lakota way); they all say the same that Leonard is a good medicine man but a bad man. He will allow anyone to come for the right price and at one point even had a price list (my brother saw it). He is also generous so when he goes out drinking (especially after Sundance) he diesnt just buy a few bottles, he buys cases. A lot of my friends back home wont go over there because of all the Europeans.
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I think we've all done things that we aren't proud of.
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I appologize for the interuption here and mean no disrespect to anyone, but the following remark needs to be addressed.
"I was distressed to see Leonard Crow Dog giving out Sundances to Nanticokes."
The dance being referenced here was not brought to the Nanticokes by Leonard Crow Dog. I am intimately aware of this dance and pretty much all that has transpired there from its very inception. This dance came from a family in Wanblee who is very well known and respected, not Crow Dog. The dance in question in years 1 and 2 was, repeat WAS a good one. It has since gone the route of so many things that are not appreciated for the correct reasons. It still goes on....but there are NO NATIVES involved at all. We all went back to Wanblee.
If Nanticoke Piney would care to contact me personally I will educate him/her more fully on what has occured.
Again, forgive my abruptness, but I felt it necessary to speak to this immediately. Jim.
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Dear Jim,
Regarding this statement you made in your last post:
"This dance came from a family in Wanblee who is very well known and respected, not Crow Dog."
Just wondering: does the "well known and respected" family include the members Godfrey or Charles Chipps?
ska
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That same line, yes. There were 7 men designated to do this from that family. I am told.
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for confirming my suspicion that it might be members of the Chipps family who started this Sun Dance far away from Lakota country.
Some members of the Chipps family are known to sell ceremony and several frauds that I know of have claimed them as teachers.
I believe there is already some discussion of this on the NAFPS site.
ska
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Ska, I would like to research more about what is said here. Thanks, Jim.
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Then I'd suggest you chek the postings under the steve mc collough name.
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I've just finished reading seven (7) pages of postings Re: Steve McCullough. I havent found anything in them that connects to the dance that was /and is currently being held in Delaware. Meaning in so far as named individuals are concerned. There are , however, alot of similarities involving the goings on around the "dance" itself. Generally a "cult of personality" and lots of sucking up to white folks to maintain a relatively stable support base for the propagation of the "leaders"s" EGO.
To be honest about it, I never heard the name of Mr. McCullough before these postings, but Vernal Cross is a very familiar name, however, unconnected to the delaware debacle.
The event held in delaware (july 5-12 /2009) will eventually come down. It has been forbidden by those who originally authorized its creation in 2001. It was a good thing at its inception, but has become a sham and mockery of true ceremony. Put up solely for the purposes of inflating an already limitless ego. I am sorry for the ones who refuse to see this, as it has been expressly conveyed to them to stay away. I pray they see the truth so as not to be among the ones who are hurt when this thing comes apart.
Thanks to all those who have added to the information here and provided a fine research tool to those in need of such. Jim.
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The reason I pointed that out was because you had mentioned Chipps selling out. That name has been associated with Mc Cullough on more than one occasion.
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I mentioned that the people who brought the dance to DE were of that family lineage.(Chipps) The moniker of "sellout" was placed by another, who is I'm sure better informed than myself. I was merely providing corrected information so the record would be clear in reference to the origins of that particular dance.
I wonder though....If a man(intercessor) has a vision that he should carry a dance to another area and has the blessing/support of the elders of his tiospaye....is that indeed "selling out"? I know it is against the decree of Arvol LookingHorse as announced from GreenGrass, but there seem to be a great many recognized elders and advisors from many communities who are not influenced by the decree. Can there be no consensus on this matter. And if not, does not a persons free will grant them the ultimate decision in the matter? But thats just me....always a question.
Thanks for all the assistance and also to the Admin. for the existance of this good place . Jim.
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The Chipps family, while known as good medicine men, also comes under that category of bad men. Giodfrey has been on the run from the law for years although I believe he was finally caught. Charles has been known to let anyone Sundance for the right price, Mary Thunder's group used to be hooked up with him. A friend of mine was there years ago, a few days after the dance she was in Interior taking a shower at the laundromat when Charles pulled up. He was pacing around waiting for her to leave, the laundromat is next to the liquor store. She pulled out but went around the block and came back and sure enough there was Charles buying his booze with donations from the Sundance. At that point he had one wife in housing, one out in the country and a wasicu girlfriend living in a trailer in the driveway.
I do not recall ever having heard of the Chipps being assiciated with Steve McCullough's Sundance.
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Cetan, I understand that Godfrey was caught, but dont know the details and will not speculate. I am also aware of some of the "misdeeds" of Charles and a few others as well.
It hurts to know some of these things about the people that are discussed here, but it is what it is and cannot be undone. I dance/sing where "I " dance and try not to focus on what others do or dont do. I dont feel its my place to critisize or judge them as they will be the ones ultimately responsible for their actions, as are we all.
Again, thanks to everyone who has contributed to my furthering scope of things, Jim