Saskia

[Pono Aloha]

You ask how can one know whether a book is or is not authentic Hawaiian? Was it published in Hawai‘i by a reputable company such as Kamehameha Press, Bishop Museum, University of Hawai‘i, Mutual, Koa, Queen Lili‘uokalani? Was it written by native Hawaiians? Though not every authentic book meets these criteria, you could spend years reading all the books that do meet these criteria, and by then you would be able to tell that Huna is not Hawaiian.
Conversely, if you see references to the Three Selves, Three Souls, Three Spirits or Three Consciousnesses, it is Huna.

So that we have the information readily accessible, I have posted a new thread dedicated to Huna http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3838.0, and also posted some authentic books on the thread on Native Hawaiian resources here http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=773.0

You will see at the Huna thread references to peer-reviewed journals and books written by Hawaiians all saying that Huna is not Hawaiian.

[earthw7]

What I would like to ask is that if there is so much genuine concern about how everyone else is getting it wrong - why are none of the 1st nation teachers, healers and elders offering to meet with anyone to put the record straight?  I don't even see that here on this site.  How is anyone to learn if all we have are the 'wrong' books, the wrong ideas and the wrong teachers?  Could it be that nobody will dare to open themselves up to ridicule and the inevitable backlash from their own people if they did this?  Could it be that there is such hatred for white people that we can just be ignored?  We are all human regardless of culture or colour, we all have pretty much the same physical and chemical makeup and our brains can all access the different levels of awareness from Beta down to Delta - it is part of our humanity.  No one culture has exclusive rights over the Spirit world but we do need guidance as to how that information is interpreted.

Indigenous Knowledge, people's way of life and spirit, is not a commodity for you to buy, barter, steal, or mangle and re-sell as your own.

Please read the main page of the website, and the pinned threads in all the sections, as we ask all new participants to do. This will help explain to you how Indigenous ways belong to the communities who have inherited and maintain them. They are not for public consumption, and not even everyone in an Indigenous community has rights to ceremonies. These things have to be earned in a traditional manner, and they are not for outsiders. It is not your right, or mine, to decide this; the communities themselves are sovereign and have already decided.  You are coming at this from a perspective that is completely incompatible with traditional communities and traditional knowledge, and acting as if you have a right to things you simply have no right to.

Indigenous people who are protecting their cultures from cultural genocide are not "hateful" and it is racist of you to accuse them of that. Please read the things on the board about white privilege and entitlement.

There are many non-Native people who are slowly but surely learning the ways of our own ancestors. But if you can find your way to a committed, grounded community, you will also find that the standards are similar to those of the other living cultures - it's not workshop culture, it's not pay-to-pray, it's not brief meetings and then going and selling fragments of a community's knowledge. It's about real community and lifetime commitment, it's about language and cultural preservation, extended family, and functioning in a traditional manner of checks and balances. It's completely different from everything you are promoting.

What I would like to ask is that if there is so much genuine concern about how everyone else is getting it wrong - why are none of the 1st nation teachers, healers and elders offering to meet with anyone to put the record straight?  I don't even see that here on this site.  How is anyone to learn if all we have are the 'wrong' books, the wrong ideas and the wrong teachers? 

I ask you why you would think we need to meet with you to explain all the thing wrong in books that you write about us? You dont listen in the first place when we tell it is wrong top follow our ways. Our ways not for sell or use by other cultures that is stealing, why do you want to learn about other people ways? You do know us if you want to set the record straight then it is your responsiblity to meet us on our grounds.

How is anyone to learn if all we have are the 'wrong' books, the wrong ideas and the wrong teachers? 
Why do you want to learn our culture when people start STEALING other people culture they getit wrong do it wrong, so I wonder what is wrong with their own culture all cultures are good if thing go bad it is because people are not following those core morals and values of the culture.

Could it be that nobody will dare to open themselves up to ridicule and the inevitable backlash from their own people if they did this?  Could it be that there is such hatred for white people that we can just be ignored? 

There are plenty of Native people who open their homes and lives to non native to be shocked by the non Natives behavior afterward, where people have taken what little they learn from our culture and make money, change our beliefs, add things that dont belong and you end up with something so strange that it dont make sense anymore. I have never seen hated for white people as the problem it the abuse of our culture by white people. It is this concept of white privledge you have the right to learn our ways and in our ways you dont.


We are all human regardless of culture or colour, we all have pretty much the same physical and chemical makeup and our brains can all access the different levels of awareness from Beta down to Delta - it is part of our humanity.  No one culture has exclusive rights over the Spirit world but we do need guidance as to how that information is interpreted.

We believe that everyone must learn to be a human being when we are Human being we learn compassion, honesty, and goodwill to man, our culture tells to pray for all races of man, I will tell you our chemical makeup is different and our DNA is different from your. Your concept of no one culture has exclusive rights over the spirit-i never heard Native say that nor would we, but we do not need to give information to people who we dont know. It is right to say No as a people.

[Pono Aloha]

In the quotes above are two common themes from New Agers. One is the demand that Native Americans, Native Hawaiian or other native peoples share their cultural wisdom. This is the height of cultural imperialism. The United Nations Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples states that indigenous peoples have the right to control and protect their cultural heritage, traditional knowledge, and traditional cultural expressions, including oral traditions, literatures, and designs (Article 31). "Control" means the right to decide whether, under what circumstances, and to whom they choose to share their knowledge. Outsiders do not have the right to demand it.

The second common theme is "we are all one." The UN Declaration provides that indigenous peoples have the right to their integrity as distinct peoples with their own cultural values (Article 8 ).
By claiming we are all the same the beautiful uniqueness of indigenous cultures is denied. Indeed, the idea that there is one "Native American" tradition is frequently stated by New Agers, despite all the evidence to the contrary that there are hundreds of traditions, each unique to its tribe.

[Saskia]

Well, it seems that no matter what I say, only certain concerns are taken up and other points are glossed over entirely.  I have never claimed to have taken any native teachings as part of my own practice or culture only to have learned from them.  There is a big difference and anyone alive who claims to have only ever learned from their own culture is misguided.  I made a mistake with the book review on Huna and have corrected that mistake as you can now see on my website but somehow that is also not mentioned. 

When we (ALL) make mistakes it seems there is a human aspect within each of us for forgiveness, healing and learning yet here on this site the search for truth is undermined by an endemic political schadenfreude.  It was mentioned that John Kelly Lockley was a fraud and I have commented on how his fees go back to his people yet nobody is interested in how a white guy who has genuinely been adopted and initiated into a black SA tribe can possibly be for real.  All that anyone here wants to do is pick on the white people who genuinely search for spiritual understanding.  Is that me being racist?

Yes we get it wrong and some of us will hold our hand up when it is pointed out that we have.  But I strongly disagree with many things said here.  Books are not a source of spiritual wisdom, that is true but they are the means by which information is shared (information does not equal wisdom - we are talking two separate things here).  So to vilify all books on spiritual matters seems odd.  However, I do take the point that books can also be misleading without good guidance from the experienced and knowledgeable.  We are only recently discovering new insights into Longhouse traditions and ceremonies as written down by a 17thC Russian fur trapper's wife in her diary.  The translation into German has made this information more readily available and can now be accessed by the people of the Longhouse to learn about some ancient practices that are not known about today.  Without books we would not be able to research our Gaelic heritage either but I agree, books can only give information which is always filtered through the psychology of the reader.

When I wrote the Huna review, years ago, I knew no better - there were no other sources online or anywhere else and yes it seemed credible.   I admit it, I am curious, eager to learn and fascinated by all beliefs around the world and have travelled to a few of them.  I don't, however, adopt them - there is a big difference.  Would it not have been more generous to have sent me a private message to point out how that book is inappropriate, show me (or anyone else you have a problem with) a different view?  This kind of public witch hunt may serve to alert the public to true criminals but does little to foster trust and good relationships between people. 

Thank you Pono Aloha for the information on Hawaiian beliefs.  One thing I must say though is that 'New Agers' or Neo - spiritual seekers do not demand anything.  The vast majority would like to learn and they respect other culture's beliefs even if they don't agree with them.  The 'We are all one' aspect is more of an attempt to bring people together WITH their cultural differences intact rather than homogenising the whole.  However if you have actually been to a neo-pagan/shamanic conference and witnessed this, I bow to your experience.  Personally, I've seen some inappropriate stuff going on and spoken up about it but never felt either of the 'common themes' that you mention.  Perhaps there are misunderstandings on both sides?

Indigenous Knowledge, people's way of life and spirit, is not a commodity for you to buy, barter, steal, or mangle and re-sell as your own.

Nor have I ever believed that or done so but you seem to think that anyone who mentions having contact with 'Native' people is somehow a fraud.  There is a large and growing movement in both Native and New-Age circles that questions the true value and eithics of a site like this when anger outweighs truth.  My comment was on the validity of every human being's search for their OWN spiritual path.  It seems to be a catch 22 situation, those of us who wish to learn will be damned for trying and making mistakes where nobody with that wisdom will step forward and help or we will be damned by listening to the cathartic comments on here which tell us we cannot possibly have learned by listening to a 1st Nation teacher because that is intrinsically wrong.  The link to the Gaelic site on my links page has obviously changed since I put it there years ago - it has both Gaelic and English translations so even I can read it.  Thanks for letting me know it had changed.

IF people want to get along, share and learn to make the whole world a better place; if we  recognise the need for the problems of the world to be addressed by different ways of thinking then we have to find common ground, not walls and divisions.  By highlighting clear frauds and scams we all help to address problems but we have to be sure and take care to see what damage we can cause along the way.  By attacking anyone who dares to build bridges, learn and perhaps along the way, make mistakes, we demonstrate our own pain not the truth of anything. 

I have changed my website to reflect the concerns raised here, I hope that goes some small way to addressing any hurt I may have caused.  There is also a link to NAFPS there too now but people coming here really need to do their own research before believing all that is written about suspected frauds here.  I have learned a great deal from this exchange and for that I thank you all.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

We are only recently discovering new insights into Longhouse traditions and ceremonies as written down by a 17thC Russian fur trapper's wife in her diary.  The translation into German has made this information more readily available and can now be accessed by the people of the Longhouse to learn about some ancient practices that are not known about today. 

Why or how could a German person use the ceremony of the Longhouse? And now with this book, they'll create something absurd and call it "traditional"?  Unless there's some Longhouse traditions that are German? And they can access their ancestors and live in the culture that knows the spirits of these ceremonies?

You miss the point to some degree on all of this. No one is saying cultures cannot share and talk and learn from one another, but what happens is people with no understanding of a culture, observe a ceremony and then go talk about it like they know what it is, and then teach it for money and sell participation in it as well. That is not right.

You don't seem to understand that some cultures do not allow their ceremonies or teachings to be public domain. But you think they should because the culture you grew up in has it that way? Where is that respectful? To respect another culture means you respect them. Including their belief that their ceremonies and teachings are private and to be contained within their own culture and peoples. You should be able to respect when you are told no, instead of whining that the world can't get along without it.

The world can't get along because too many people are selfish spoiled people.. who if they can't get what they want, steal it. Or steal what it looks like and fill in the rest with their own imaginings. The vast majority of new age peoples are out for money. The small few who really want to learn something don't understand boundaries or that purchasing spiritual identity through workshops and the like is as wrong as selling it.

The world would get along much better if people stopped looking to others for their spiritual growth and looked to their own self. You continue to sound as though the Native/Indigenous peoples of the world owe it to everyone to give their knowledge to them. Why?

You don't address why you feel this way, or why it is wrong to think this. You just blame them for the world being so  hopeless as though they're at fault here. Maybe people need to understand first the word "No" before they can understand anything else.

Also, you obviously haven't read through the research pages.. what do you think that means? Research. People are researched before moved to the frauds section. So I fail to understand your statement that research needs to be done before believing what is written. You believe what is written when it sounds good.. don't you? Do you do your own research into everything you read? Probably not, so you assume others don't either. I mean, if you truly researched all these new age people claiming their knowledge from this or that person/tribe/culture then maybe you'd begin to see the real pattern here.

Also, I have not encountered the catch 22 thing. And I am a white person. I am learning as I go along. I didn't learn from books. Nor did I approach people and demand, yes, demand that they share with me. You don't see it as a demand. The vast majority of new agers would like to learn.. but they don't. They take and change it to what they "think" it is and never accept that it takes an actual "lifetime" to learn, not a workshop and not even a one or two or 1000 times in a bonefide real ceremony environment.

What you call "like to learn" is actually them demanding to have access to that which they don't have permission to have.

Well, done here. I don't think you'll really understand and will continue to think there is something wrong with people who's cultures are different than how you think it should be. Which is a lack of respect, btw..

[educatedindian]

1. All that anyone here wants to do is pick on the white people who genuinely search for spiritual understanding.  Is that me being racist?

2... to vilify all books on spiritual matters seems odd. 

3. This kind of public witch hunt may serve to alert the public to true criminals but does little to foster trust and good relationships between people. 

4. One thing I must say though is that 'New Agers' or Neo - spiritual seekers do not demand anything.  The vast majority would like to learn and they respect other culture's beliefs even if they don't agree with them. 

5. There is a large and growing movement in both Native and New-Age circles that questions the true value and eithics of a site like this when anger outweighs truth. 
 
6. It seems to be a catch 22 situation, those of us who wish to learn will be damned for trying and making mistakes where nobody with that wisdom will step forward and help...

7. By attacking anyone who dares to build bridges, learn and perhaps along the way, make mistakes, we demonstrate our own pain not the truth of anything. 

8. I have changed my website to reflect the concerns raised here, I hope that goes some small way to addressing any hurt I may have caused.  There is also a link to NAFPS there too now but people coming here really need to do their own research before believing all that is written about suspected frauds here.  I have learned a great deal from this exchange and for that I thank you all.

1. No, but it is you bringing race into a topic when it's not needed or relevant. Your critics include both Native and non-Native. And whites seem to be some of the ones bringing up these topics most forcefully.

2. To use hyberbole like "villify" seems pretty strange. All that one person said was that one can't entirely or mostly rely on books for spiritual matters.

3. Again, your persecution complex is ridiculous. How is asking questions the same as burning people alive? You insult the memory of genuine murder victims of religious persecution when you compare yourself to them.

4. Over a dozen years' experience at NAFPS shows that not to be true. Nuagers demand all the the time. Otherwise there would not be a market for instant shame-ons for a 19.99 book or a 300 to 3000 dollar seminar to make one a shame-on in ten easy steps.

5. Where is this supposed movement? I challenge you to show it to us.

If you seriously think this site is "angry" when we have strict rules of conduct and kick people out for abusing them, then you must be a special delicate flower living in a very sheltered hothouse world.

If you want to truly see Native anger over Nuage fraud, go to Indianz.com.

6. You're not being "attacked for making mistakes" but being criticized for current behavior. And demanding "people with wisdom step forward" is, yes, a demand from you that you just claimed Nuagers never make.

It is not the responsibility of NDNs or anyone else to help you on your spiritual quest. Think of how arrogant that sounds. "Uh, Native people, I know you have serious problems with poverty and sacred sites in danger of being lost, but do ya think you could help out whites trying to figure out the meaning of life?"

I do see this site and its people as doing an enormous amount of good in preventing people from any background from being harmed by frauds, and of preventing those frauds from spreading lies about Native ways. But helping guide you on a spiritual quest is not something we will ever do. How long do you think it would be before there would be crowds of Nuagers coming in asking "Tell me how to live my life, pleeeease!"

7. That is quite egotistical of you to think of yourself like that, to claim to be building bridges. What you did was certainly not "daring". By your own account, you made mistakes. And you admit them, so that's a hopeful step forward.

Again, criticism does not equal "attacks."

8. I see that as a good step forward. Thanks to you as well.

[Defend the Sacred]

8. I have changed my website to reflect the concerns raised here, I hope that goes some small way to addressing any hurt I may have caused.  There is also a link to NAFPS there too now but people coming here really need to do their own research before believing all that is written about suspected frauds here.  I have learned a great deal from this exchange and for that I thank you all.

8. I see that as a good step forward. Thanks to you as well.

Actually, though a link to NAFPS and a disclaimer has been added on the lower left of the page, right up top she is still promoting frauds on her site; both at the top of the links list and right on the front page.

[Defend the Sacred]

As this is the same thing we just went through with Snorks, I think these criteria Al wrote for Snorks also apply to you, "Saskia". Email us when you're serious about stopping your exploitation of Indigenous people:

IMO the only way to prove she's truly changed:

Not just removing shame on and selling healing pages, but putting in its place a public apology and admission of wrongdoing.

Also refunding money to anyone who paid her.