Hello! Writing a Fantasy Story...

[daughterofhume]

Hello everyone!

I'm here to learn some stuff. :-) I'm currently writing a web serial (basically, an online novel, more or less a web comic without pictures). It's an urban fantasy story with a big basis in old religions. Most of the characters are white and centered around ancient western polytheistic religions, but there are some American Indian characters who come from the Spokane area.

The problem is, I'm having trouble finding information on what it is that Salish tribes usually actually believed. I do have a little information on it, but a lot of what's out there is hard to discern whether it's legitimate or, well, New Age frauds and Plastic Shamans.

What I am trying to avoid my writing:
-revealing "secret" or sensitive information about tribal practices. The main character is white, the story is first person narrated--he wouldn't be privy to such information anyway. (Neither would I, for that matter, lol.)
-perpetuating stereotypes about "Magical Native Americans". There are American Indians who are magical, but they are no more or less magical than the white characters in the story.
-putting in stuff that is just ridiculously false. In her book Devon Abbott Mihesuah mentions how owls are considered a bad omen amongst most American Indian tribes, and gives the example of having an American Indian with an owl companion in a book as being a dumb idea for this reason. This is the kind of thing I am interested in avoiding; things that are just laughably false or push the boundaries of disbelief if an American Indian happened to be reading my story.
-Offending people. Sure, I'm an atheist, and I admittedly don't believe in spiritual practices. But I still see no good reason, in the context of a fictional fantasy story, to offend tons of people. Lots of other authors have done this before, and I'm not really interested in joining them if I can help it.

The book isn't about a white person "becoming Indian" or joining American Indians either; It's a book that includes Spokanes as part of its cast of characters, and I want to represent them fairly.

[earthw7]

putting in stuff that is just ridiculously false. In her book Devon Abbott Mihesuah mentions how owls are considered a bad omen amongst most American Indian tribes, and gives the example of having an American Indian with an owl companion in a book as being a dumb idea for this reason. This is the kind of thing I am interested in avoiding; things that are just laughably false or push the boundaries of disbelief if an American Indian happened to be reading my story.

why would you write about us when you have no knowledge of us? Owl are very important to us and are messagers so you above statement is offensive to me as a native person.
Maybe the reason why you can find anything is because YOU are not suppose to write about it

[daughterofhume]

Owl are very important to us and are messagers so you above statement is offensive to me as a native person.

This was a statement that I read in a book called "So You Want to Write About American Indians?: A Guide for Writers, Students, and Scholars" by an author named Devon Abbott Mihesuah. It wasn't something that I was claiming to be true or false; it was something that I read from this source, in a book about writing about American Indians.

why would you write about us when you have no knowledge of us?

The main reason is that in a book about people who draw their power from religious figures and from nature (as I stated previously--not just native people, white people too) it seems sort of a "duh" thing to have figures that are from the stories of Native America.

I'm still at the point where I could remove any and all native references, and I have pondered doing that. As a white writer, you find yourself in a frustrating situation: is it better to have no minorities or people of color in your stories, and thus not have to risk stirring up controversy if those PoC don't agree with your depiction of them? Or do you include PoC for a more balanced outlook on the world that includes a more realistic perspective, but risk stirring up someone's ire if something isn't right? It's a legitimate problem for any white writer, and most places encourage you to seek the perspectives of the people you're writing about to deal with any concerns.

To be honest, coming to a forum like this has been a difficult thing for me. It's easier to read things and do research than risk having people get angry at you. At the end of the day, you can do all the research and try to be as sensitive as possible, but some people are going to get offended--that's just life. Still, maybe I's better to just take out the Native stuff and make them white people. 

[Defend the Sacred]

This makes me think of things Spokane author Sherman Alexie has said about why he does not write about anything ceremonial in his books.

As a Native man, he knows some things are not appropriate to discuss publicly, and that - even as a full participant in his culture - there are things he is not qualified to represent to the public. He is accountable to his family, his community;  he has all kinds of opportunity to write about these things and get money and attention for it, but he doesn't do it as he knows it's inappropriate.

http://www.english.illinois.edu/MAPS/poets/a_f/alexie/fraser.htm
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JF: Along those lines, I'm wondering about a seeming paradox. You often say during readings and talks that you want to honor your culture's privacy, and yet your work is so public. It seems like you protect it and expose it at the same time. There's a tension created.

SA: Yes, of course there is. One of the ways I've dealt with it is that I don't write about anything sacred. I don't write about any ceremonies; I don't use any Indian songs.

JF: True. You mention sweat lodges but only obliquely. I'm thinking of the image of the old woman in the poem who emerges from the sweat lodge.

SA: Yes, I'm outside the sweat lodge. In Reservation Blues I'm in it and I realized I didn't like it. I approach my writing the same way I approach my life. It's what I've been taught and how I behave with regard to my spirituality.

JF: How do you draw the line as to what is off limits?

SA: My tribe drew that line for me a long time ago. It's not written down, but I know it. If you're Catholic you wouldn't tell anybody about the confessional. I feel a heavy personal responsibility, and I accept it, and I honor it. It's part of the beauty of my culture. I've been called fascist a couple of times, at panels. I've censored myself. I've written things that I have since known to be wrong.

JF: What kind of things . . . I guess you can't say.

SA: (Laughs). All I can say is that I've written about cultural events inappropriately.

JF: How did you know?

SA: The people involved told me. After considering it, I realized they were right. In a few instances. Not every instance, but in a few. I can't take them out of what they're in, but I'm not going to republish them, or perform them in public, no anthologizing: they've died for me. There are Indian writers who write about things they aren't supposed to. They know. They'll pay for it. I'm a firm believer in what people call 'karma.' Even some of the writing I really admire, like Leslie Silko's Ceremony, steps on all sorts of sacred toes. I wouldn't go near that kind of writing. I'd be afraid of the repercussions. I write about a drunk in a bar, or a guy who plays basketball.

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http://www.english.illinois.edu/MAPS/poets/a_f/alexie/fraser.htm

[Diana]

@daughterofhume, it sounds like you are throwing in a few Indians as window dressing or as a back drop for what would be a whitebread novel. That in it's self is nothing new. Hollywood has been doing that since the beginning of movies. Also as recent as Dance's with wolves and that horrible TV show Off the Map; about a bunch of young white doctors in the jungle with nameless Indians. As usual it's all about the young good-looking white people. I don't know what's worse blatant racism or the subtle racism. It something to think about.



Lim lemtsh,

Diana    
 

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

I understand your dilemma daughterofhume, as a writer creatively trying to depict a made up story that
has fictional characters, but, trying to keep in the bounds of reality that life presents to us every day.

I don't see where you said you wanted info that is out of bounds, private, ceremonial, just some
basic info on the native peoples from spokane area, so you wouldn't have absurd falsity in your book/comic.
Doesn't mean you want private info..

If I decided to write and a character was a doctor I'd prob want some info re: doctors that would help
create the character more realistically, but, that I could get via research online but with ethnic
groups/native cultures, it is much harder to find via research that isn't made up or falsified in some way.

It may be best to leave out the native characters, but I also see where you could use some native
perspective to cast light on the damage of the new age propaganda and horseshit they sell..  via
a native character. But, probably won't be useful if the info you have is falisfied in some way.. so..
yeah.. may be best to just eliminate the characters and focus on some other religious views ..

Good luck in your work!  

[Defend the Sacred]

Another thought. DoH, you mention wanting to know about the Salish. You mention that many people don't know what owls mean to the diverse Native tribes.

... The Kiesha Crowther thread has a lot of information and discussion of what happens when a non-Native outsider misrepresents themselves as being Salish and having a connection with owls. Perhaps you could write about a foolish, ignorant white person who pretends to be something they are not. Just a thought.  

[tecpaocelotl]

My big question is why Salish?

To be honest, I don't much on them except for the art that is associated with them, but I would assumed there's clans along with each clan have a small amount of beliefs that are different among each other like any other people.

Like anyone who wants to know about native culture, truth & new age, I always recommend them the book "Dream Catchers: How Mainstream America Discovered Native Spirituality".

Also as recent as Dance's with wolves and that horrible TV show Off the Map; about a bunch of young white doctors in the jungle with nameless Indians.

Don't forget Wolf Lake & Twilight.

[daughterofhume]

First of all, I want to thank everyone so far who has shared their thoughts. I really appreciate your giving your feedback.

From Kathryn:

As a Native man, [Sherman] knows some things are not appropriate to discuss publicly, and that - even as a full participant in his culture - there are things he is not qualified to represent to the public. He is accountable to his family, his community;  he has all kinds of opportunity to write about these things and get money and attention for it, but he doesn't do it as he knows it's inappropriate.

...[from qtd. interview]...

JF: True. You mention sweat lodges but only obliquely. I'm thinking of the image of the old woman in the poem who emerges from the sweat lodge.

Yes, I am aware of Sherman's work, and I've actually read a decent chunk of it in preparation for what I'm writing. :-) What the interviewer mentions here is the way I plan on mentioning it in my work; I don't plan on showing any ceremonies or songs in my writing. That being said, the characters do roam around a "spirit world" and in that spirit world, there are spirits from native stories, because I feel like anything else would be bizarre. A native spirit (in this fantasy world--I am in no way claiming anything in this book is how "things actually are" in any sense) would never tell a white traveler their about native ceremonies.

The Kiesha Crowther thread has a lot of information and discussion of what happens when a non-Native outsider misrepresents themselves as being Salish and having a connection with owls. Perhaps you could write about a foolish, ignorant white person who pretends to be something they are not. Just a thought

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think the Indians in this fantasy universe would let them get away with it. ;-)

From Diana:

@daughterofhume, it sounds like you are throwing in a few Indians as window dressing or as a back drop for what would be a whitebread novel. That in it's self is nothing new. Hollywood has been doing that since the beginning of movies. Also as recent as Dance's with wolves and that horrible TV show Off the Map; about a bunch of young white doctors in the jungle with nameless Indians. As usual it's all about the young good-looking white people. I don't know what's worse blatant racism or the subtle racism. It something to think about.

It is something I have thought about, but I am not in a position where I can write an urban fantasy novel about native people from their own perspective. I don't have the requisite experiences. The American Indian characters are important to the story (some of them are major characters) and interact with the white characters on equal footing. I have tried, to the best of my ability, to make them interesting and three-dimensional characters. Of course, subtle racism is an inborn bias to all people, and because of our sordid history with minorities, white people are especially in trouble when their subtle race biases pop up. I try to learn and listen as much as I can before making decisions, and I've tried to represent a variety of American Indian people with different personalities--of course, all good storytelling will do so  (though it also helps to mitigate any potential unfortunate implications any one character might represent.)

~Magic~ is just too important to the setting of the novel for me to write from a Native's perspective, because that would mean talking about ceremonies, and I don't want to have to get a headache over how it would work to do so in a fictionalized setting in a way that wouldn't upset people for no good reason. That being said, I would like an opportunity to write about someone who is a PoC as a main character, instead of in a secondary role, and I have written works that have done so--this just isn't one of them.

From Critter:

I don't see where you said you wanted info that is out of bounds, private, ceremonial, just some
basic info on the native peoples from spokane area, so you wouldn't have absurd falsity in your book/comic.
Doesn't mean you want private info..

If I decided to write and a character was a doctor I'd prob want some info re: doctors that would help
create the character more realistically, but, that I could get via research online but with ethnic
groups/native cultures, it is much harder to find via research that isn't made up or falsified in some way.  

This is more like what I am looking for. Frankly, I don't want private info because I don't want to be held responsible for using it incorrectly.

[daughterofhume]

My big question is why Salish?

To be honest, I don't much on them except for the art that is associated with them, but I would assumed there's clans along with each clan have a small amount of beliefs that are different among each other like any other people.

Kind of a simple question with a complicated answer. The long and short of it is--back in my Role-playing days, there was a game we played. That game was set in the Spokane area (my husband ran it) for reasons I am not entirely sure of. As is the case with such things, I have somewhat gotten attached to the setting, though I seriously considered changing it to my home area of VT. One of the prequs for the setting is that it be closeish to a decent-sized city but still within distance of an area that could be considered "the sticks." Spokane still fits that bill nicely and I don't really have a compelling reason to change its location.

It's an unfortunate coincidence that some crappy author who shall remain nameless has since set their fabulously popular series in a Washington location as well. :<

Like anyone who wants to know about native culture, truth & new age, I always recommend them the book "Dream Catchers: How Mainstream America Discovered Native Spirituality".

I almost picked up that book, actually--but I heard it mostly just talks about sham beliefs and not about real ones, and while it sounded like an interesting read, I wasn't sure how useful it would be to me in my research. Maybe I will go back and pick up a copy on your recommendation. :-)

Don't forget Wolf Lake & Twilight.

I haven't seen Wolf Lake, but it's a SyFy original series and that is NEVER a good sign.

Don't get me started on Twilight. ;-)

Has anyone here read any more, erm, reputable fantasy authors who have used Native stories, like Charles DeLint or Neil Gaiman? I'm curious as to what you think of them?

[Defend the Sacred]

From Critter:

I don't see where you said you wanted info that is out of bounds, private, ceremonial, just some
basic info on the native peoples from spokane area, so you wouldn't have absurd falsity in your book/comic.
Doesn't mean you want private info..

If I decided to write and a character was a doctor I'd prob want some info re: doctors that would help
create the character more realistically, but, that I could get via research online but with ethnic
groups/native cultures, it is much harder to find via research that isn't made up or falsified in some way. 

This is more like what I am looking for. Frankly, I don't want private info because I don't want to be held responsible for using it incorrectly.

Non-Natives are in no position to determine what is and isn't private to Native people.

Critter is non-Native. I am also non-Native.

Earthw7 is Lakota, a respected member of her community, and a respected member of our online community. I reiterate what she said:

why would you write about us when you have no knowledge of us?
... ... ...
Maybe the reason why you can find anything is because YOU are not suppose to write about it

I respect your desire to include POC characters as full, well-rounded people and not just shallow stereotypes. But that is different from writing about their spirituality. I am glad you're aware of the "Magical POC" stereotypes and don't want to fall into them. But given the focus of your proposed book is spirituality - in a fantasy context written by an atheist - and includes scenes that take place in the spirit world, I don't see how you could write about Native people in that context without trespassing into areas that Native people have said repeatedly are off-limits to people who are outsiders to their cultures.

I am glad you have the respect to come here and ask about this. I hope you can also listen to what the NDN people here are saying.    We have NDN and non-NDN people participating on the board here. It is often good to go and read people's intro posts and other posts in general to know if a Native or non-Native is speaking.

And though I think new members need to do their own work to get up to speed and learn who is who here, I think it's also good for those of us who are non-Native to mention that to new people if it is relevant to the discussion.

[tecpaocelotl]

I almost picked up that book, actually--but I heard it mostly just talks about sham beliefs and not about real ones, and while it sounded like an interesting read, I wasn't sure how useful it would be to me in my research. Maybe I will go back and pick up a copy on your recommendation. :-)

I recommend it bc you can spot the fakes more easily.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

From Critter:

I don't see where you said you wanted info that is out of bounds, private, ceremonial, just some
basic info on the native peoples from spokane area, so you wouldn't have absurd falsity in your book/comic.
Doesn't mean you want private info..

If I decided to write and a character was a doctor I'd prob want some info re: doctors that would help
create the character more realistically, but, that I could get via research online but with ethnic
groups/native cultures, it is much harder to find via research that isn't made up or falsified in some way. 

Non-Natives are in no position to determine what is and isn't private to Native people.

Critter is non-Native. I am also non-Native.

Earthw7 is Lakota, a respected member of her community, and a respected member of our online community. I reiterate what she said:

Quote Eartw7:

why would you write about us when you have no knowledge of us?
... ... ...
Maybe the reason why you can find anything is because YOU are not suppose to write about it 

Apologies, Certainly didn't intend to act like I knew what was or was not private.. was simply
replying to the statement from the OP:

" What I am trying to avoid my writing:
-revealing "secret" or sensitive information about tribal practices. The main character is white, the story is first person narrated--he wouldn't be privy to such information anyway. (Neither would I, for that matter, lol.) "

and saying where I didn't see where DOH was looking for private info..  was never intended or spoke/written as
an authority on what is or isn't private. Just that she stated she wasn't looking for private matters..

It is a difficult world we live in. 

[daughterofhume]

Thanks to everyone for their responses. You've all given me some good food for thought (and a good book recommend), and I think I know where I'm going with things now. In the end, I'm willing to own responsibility for what I write--as a writer, that is all you can ever do in the end. :-)

[Leonard]

Have you read any of the Newford urban fantasy novels of Charles De Lint?  In them he created a fictional Native tribe, the Kickaha, which contain elements of both woodlands and plains tribes.  The Spirit Beings of the fictional NDN tribe often interact with the characters of his stories, both in this world and a parallel spirit world, and in one book, Widershins, they have quite a problem on their hands dealing with the poorly behaved Celtic Spirit Folk who have migrated to this continent.  When you read his stories, it is quite clear that he is not depicting the world view of a specific tribe and it is obvious that he put together a creative amalgam of NDN beliefs and cosmologies in a way designed to further the overall fantasy narrative.  In my opinion he succeeded in doing this in a respectful and honorable way.

I strongly suggest your taking a look at De Lint's writing if you are not already familiar with him.  I especially recommend Somewhere To Be Flying for your purposes.  Good Luck!