NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: jeaniesgenealogy on October 16, 2015, 09:54:36 pm
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Hello, my name is Jeanie. I am an amateur genealogist and genealogy blogger. My ancestry is British/Irish and to the best of my knowledge I do not have a drop of Native American blood. The most popular post on my blog concerns the "myth" of Princess Nicketti/Jane Eagle Plume supposed daughter of Opechangough of the Powhatans of Virginia. My knowledge of Indian genealogy is practically nonexistent, but I do understand the genealogical research process and what constitutes proof. It is my hope that the members of this forum can help me with answers to people who "yell" at me and tell me that not only are they related to Nicketti but can trace their ancestors to "Chief Turkey Trot" born in 1432. I am aware of the Don Greene Shawnee Heritage Books, which are the source of most of the family tree information that comes my way.
Thank you for reading my post and hopefully you can help me stamp out some of the bogus Native American Genealogy lines.
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This was just posted to my blog:
I had the Appalachian Shawnee tribe (all be it not a Federally recognized tribe) verify my lineage. My line is as follows: HOKOLESQUA OPECHAN "STREAM " CORNSTALK (1628 - 1696)
BIG TURKEY HOP CORNSTALK (1660 - 1694)
son of HOKOLESQUA OPECHAN "STREAM " CORNSTALK
APRIL "TIKAMI" HOP (1682 - 1744)
daughter of BIG TURKEY HOP CORNSTALK
MARY LEWIS (1718 - 1744)
daughter of APRIL "TIKAMI" HOP
JOHN JOSEPH VANN (1735 - 1815)
I would like to be able to respond to these types of comments with a helpful answer. I don't want to be rude to them, but I would like to respond with a correct answer. I think she is talking about the Appalachian Shawnee Tribe.
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Hi Jeanie,
First of all there is No Appalachian Shawnee Tribe.
Just another case of tall tales and American myths and legends.
All the Shawnee were forcibly pushed out of that area by Whites and relocated to Oklahoma.
Now were supposed to believe hundreds or thousands of Shawnee hid out in the forest or swamps instead of joining their people, and were sheltered by their enemies, and that all intermarried with Whites, and hid this fact for over 200 years?
Here's the links I found for the Appalachian Shawnee Tribe:
https://www.facebook.com/larrybuffalospirit/
https://www.facebook.com/larry.warstler
A related group:
http://www.piquashawnee.com/
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Here's some links to Shawnee Chief Cornstalk's family tree and nothing is similar to the one you posted.
http://en.rodovid.org/wk/Person:591929
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornstalk
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I know some things about the Powhatan and the fake family members that have been fabricated in that line. Most "sources" people use when claiming these things are user-submitted family trees on genealogy sites like ancestry.com. Anyone can edit those trees, and unless there is sourcing, they are not reliable. It is very common for fantastical trees to wind up inserted in otherwise normal people's collections, with everything from invented Indians to European royalty.
One of the things I look for is when a normal person has, in well-sourced trees, an unknown mother or father. Then you look at trees for them without sources and there is, for no reason, a famous person with the same surname just plopped in. Sometimes these trees will have "sources" attached, but when you open them up... the attached "sources" do not source the content at all. They are often records for completely different people.
The line in question is supposedly the family of Matoaka ("Pocahontas"). My family line has one of the women from that family, who does seem to have existed, but any details about her are pretty much impossible to pin down at this point. People have invented ridiculously-named fake parents for her, along with about 14 children she never had (including the completely-fabricated "Princess Niketti"). People have tampered with the documentation so much I can't even be sure that *her* name is right. Usually when you look at trees that claim her, the attached sources are not for her at all, but for "Rebecca Rolfe", the English name Matoaka was known by after marriage and baptism, or for an Algonquin woman whose birthdate is off by 100 years. People tend to get really dumb and gullible when they are determined to find a connection that just isn't there.
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Don Greene, who is some sort of "Chief" of the fake Appalachian Shawnee is making money selling his Shawnee Genealogy books. Has there ever been an official statement from the Shawnee about what he is doing? Are there any investigative articles written about him? It's one thing to tell people they're wrong, but it is so much more helpful to be able to tell them why they are wrong. Of course some of these people have issues that prevent their eyes from being opened; I had a terrible run in with a woman named Melissa Bryan, who when she not channeling her ancestors was reliving her days as Billy the Kids wife. I think some of you have heard of her. She threatened to come do me in if I didn't retract my article. But some people are really looking for the truth one way or the other.
To my shame, I know very little about the life, fate and ongoing struggles of the Native Americans, and I suspect most people are like me. I have read many of the posts here on this forum and can see how hurtful and insulting "pretendians" can be. (great word by the way) I would like to craft some responses for those who are actually looking for the truth. And to steer them away from the shysters like Greene. For example, he claims that Cleopatra Powhatan was Shawnee. I thought she was Pamunkey, but I don't really know. He purports to know the ancestry of Powhatan, Pocohantas' father. How could he possibly know this or better yet, why could he not possibly know this, i.e. the Powhatans did not have a written language at that time or their names were never been recorded. Is there any proof that Cleopatra married Opechangough?
I don't want to flood your forum with wannabes, and I don't want to be a pest myself. I just hate to see people chasing after ridiculous genealogies and perpetuating these stories. The internet is a blessing and a curse when it comes to genealogy and some of these legends have taken on a life of their own. Thank you for your time and patience. Jeanie
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A way to teach people that Don Greene's work is inaccurate is to learn and teach accurate genealogy methods. Show people what accurate research, history, genealogy looks like.
Nations coping with these bogus pretendian histories may or may not have the time, energy, inclination to publish refutations.
I sure understand the frustration when seeing yet another garbled unsourced genealogy claim.
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Isn't "Cleopatra" one of the fabricated family members?
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Moar genealogy dramaz: "But my grandpa said he's Indian!" Adventures in Genealogy: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3981.0
and Say what Johnny Depp? http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3318.msg35144#msg35144
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I believe that Cleopatra, despite her name, was real. When Thomas Rolfe, son of Pocohantas, returned from England he petitioned the Governor to see his Aunt Cleopatra. That being said, that is all that is known about her. To my knowledge there are no records of marriage or children. This does not see to have stopped people from claiming descent from her.
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I had a terrible run in with a woman named Melissa Bryan, who when she not channeling her ancestors was reliving her days as Billy the Kids wife. I think some of you have heard of her. She threatened to come do me in if I didn't retract my article. But some people are really looking for the truth one way or the other.
Yes, we know about Melissa Bryan. She is pretty scary.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4243.0
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I do Native genealogy and i laugh at people who makes these claims because first natives did not have surnames,
plus everything was in our language, then when the people first came to our land they could not spell our names so you have all kinds of spellings, i tell people you got to know the language before you do native genealogy. Now let talk about out east there are little or no records of the people in the tribes unless they became christian and not many did that, i find that many make up their stories out east, and all want to be from an important person, plus we have no princess or king, queens or any such royalty. It pretty easy to do genealogy today so if they are white and christian you can trace them but i find that claims to Native blood after the research is usually false.
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I thought I would share this additional list of names with you:
Powhatan Lines
1. Murmuring Ripple b: 1415
+ First American b: 1445
2 Dashing Stream b: 1474
+ Scent Flower b: 1517
3 Morning Flower b: 1528
+ Emperor Wahunsonacock Powhattan b: 1545
+ Winunuske Nonoma b: 1545
4. Cleopatra Powhattan b: 1602 (Sister of Pocahontas)
+ Chief Opechancanough Powhattan b: 1554
Amazingly people believe it.
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And many of those fictional Eastern Natives turn up in trees with parents who happen to have been born 100 years or so *after* their alleged children, and vice versa. Pure fiction.
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I don't for a minute believe that 'Cleopatra's name was actually Cleopatra. I understand that there is physical documentation that Thomas petitioned to be able to see his auntie. She she had been converted there is no way the church would have allowed her to take the name of an Egyptian pagan ruler (gasp!) as her christian name. If she had not converted then how the heck would she have received that name at birth? I highly doubt anyone in the community would have happened to have had a copy of Shakespeare's works laying around to influence the child's name choice. If it was a name she took on later I still highly doubt it was Cleopatra, it just doesn't make logical sense. Since it is my understanding that the name is only used once in any type of documentation, I think it was likely something that sounded similar and Thomas in his ignorance forever lost her actual identity in his mistake.
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Several of what pass for surnames or are actual surnames from intermarriage in that alleged line of Shawnee are Cherokee names; until Oklahoma there wasn't much intermarriage between the two nations.
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Hello, my name is Jeanie. I am an amateur genealogist and genealogy blogger. […]
The most popular post on my blog concerns the "myth" of Princess Nicketti/Jane Eagle Plume supposed daughter of Opechangough of the Powhatans of Virginia.
I found and enjoyed your blogposts (and some of the comments, too …):
http://www.jeaniesgenealogy.com/2011/11/im-related-to-princess.html
http://www.jeaniesgenealogy.com/2012/10/jane-eagle-plume-princess-nicketti-and.html
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Thank you Sparks. I am working on a post about Cleopatra now. If anyone ever comes across anything about this fraudulent genealogy, please pass it on. Also, I would love to be able to write about Don Greene, but need to learn much more about him and his books. All input is welcome. jeanie
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A way to teach people that Don Greene's work is inaccurate is to learn and teach accurate genealogy methods. Show people what accurate research, history, genealogy looks like.
This resource seems like good place to start for beginners?
http://familyhistorydaily.com/genealogy-help-and-how-to/native-american-ancestry/
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Let me introduce myself. I am a family genealogist. I have been crawling around the archives before I could talk. I never claim to be anything I am not. My family tree is in flux as new evidence is always just one document away. I never take anyone's word over family! I grew up knowing that I was part Cherokee, Shawnee, and possibly one other Native culture. I also grew up knowing that I was a direct descendent to King Bruce (The Bruce). Did I have overwhelming documentation? No! I had family stories handed down from generation to generation. Believe me when I tell you no one in my family wanted to be Native American. There was a sense of shame to the very idea.
So, when I started to dig deep into my Native American lines, I found proof (yes documented) for the Cherokee stories I had heard, and several conclusive leads for the Shawnee line. Does this make my line a fraud? I say NOT! I do not appreciate my tree being used in and on such a site as this by such a hateful and conniving person! I have worked hard, and continue to work hard on to find where I descend from!!
I pray that a lesson from this can be learned by all. I pray blessings to all who have been sucked into this subject board. We are all absent of perfection!
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Hi byblood, perhaps you could go to Members Introduction and introduce yourself.
I have no idea what you're talking about...? "My family tree is in flux", "I was a direct descendant to King Bruce" and "I do not appreciate my tree being used in and on such a site as this". WTH are you babbling about?
Who's your family? Who's King Bruce? And what family tree are you talking about? I re-read the entire thread again and cannot find anything relevant or connected to your post. Please clarify for us.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
Let me introduce myself. I am a family genealogist. I have been crawling around the archives before I could talk. I never claim to be anything I am not. My family tree is in flux as new evidence is always just one document away. I never take anyone's word over family! I grew up knowing that I was part Cherokee, Shawnee, and possibly one other Native culture. I also grew up knowing that I was a direct descendent to King Bruce (The Bruce). Did I have overwhelming documentation? No! I had family stories handed down from generation to generation. Believe me when I tell you no one in my family wanted to be Native American. There was a sense of shame to the very idea.
So, when I started to dig deep into my Native American lines, I found proof (yes documented) for the Cherokee stories I had heard, and several conclusive leads for the Shawnee line. Does this make my line a fraud? I say NOT! I do not appreciate my tree being used in and on such a site as this by such a hateful and conniving person! I have worked hard, and continue to work hard on to find where I descend from!!
I pray that a lesson from this can be learned by all. I pray blessings to all who have been sucked into this subject board. We are all absent of perfection!
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Diana,
If you look at page one of Jennies posts, you will see where she posts my tree! I do not appreciate her going from site to site trashing me and my family. She has no business, as she is not Native per her own admission, to stick her nose into my and others families history. I am thankful that I have distant cousins that look out for me and let me know when I and my family are being trashed. I am not a fraud! My tree is not a fraud! This Jennie person is causing more harm than good.
I am proud to be related to Cleopatra or whatever her real name may of been!!
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ByBlood, as has already been stated, please go to the Member Intro section and introduce yourself. Your post here is here on this -forum-, not on someone else's blog.
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@ ByBlood, is this the family tree you're talking about? The one posted to Jeaniesgenaology blog?
I had the Appalachian Shawnee tribe (all be it not a Federally recognized tribe) verify my lineage. My line is as follows: HOKOLESQUA OPECHAN "STREAM " CORNSTALK (1628 - 1696)
BIG TURKEY HOP CORNSTALK (1660 - 1694)
son of HOKOLESQUA OPECHAN "STREAM " CORNSTALK
APRIL "TIKAMI" HOP (1682 - 1744)
daughter of BIG TURKEY HOP CORNSTALK
MARY LEWIS (1718 - 1744)
daughter of APRIL "TIKAMI" HOP
JOHN JOSEPH VANN (1735 - 1815)
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Hey there, this Jeanie weighing in. I will start by saying that I do not go from website to website trashing people. I write a blog, which belongs to me. I also posted here about what I write on my blog. Everyone of this forum has been very kind and helpful to me.
The content of my blog has to do with Genealogy. Genealogy is very different from family history and lore. Genealogy requires documented proof, period. ByBlood admits that they have no documented proof. Without proof you have no family tree. If someone can provide documented proof for a family descended from "Cleopatra" I will happily change my blog.
see my blog post on Cleopatra: http://www.jeaniesgenealogy.com/2015/11/cleopatra-shawano-powhatan-and.html
I'm sorry if this upsets ByBlood. It seems to upset a lot of people who are trying to claim a relationship with this Indian woman. But it upsets me when I see people claiming to be Genealogist and clearly their not.
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Hi, i want to say the Ni Ka tai Powhatan story was something told by Mr. Green far as i know, ive never seen there information i know that i read were the Pamunkey s information turned in didn't go to the actual original Powhatan or something as well so who is who, but no tribes claim Nicketti so no one from Nicketti in a try making no way to lie in order to profit the definition of fraud. Nicketti is actually in VA history, tribes dont use VA history. Every Museum in VA tells the Trader Hughes story, the reason a search was done looking for proof of a Cleopatra Powhatan happened was because a Floyd said who would gear of such name. So he looked because a family story from the 1700s, even in 1800s story for by Cabbell and kin story. That there Grandmother Mary Elizabeth Hughes, was daughter of Nicketti Powhatan so the Nicketti story started the search that found the Petition from Pocohontas son to see his mother's sister. So saying you believe in the Cleopatra story , did you not ask who found the proof of the Petition, it was my family a long time ago before computers try to proof the story finding a petition, in the process. But see they were looking for proof of who Nicketti said mother was , and proof of Nicketti herself when they found the JAMES Town Petition. No one is trying to start a 501 tribe , nor in one kin to Nicketti Powhatan, well i spell it ni ka tai, and were only trying to understand how our Grandfather that tryed derailing Andrew Jackson, that was a 2 time va Governor, a presidential candidate, founded of VA historical society, in a few important positions, thats father was killed by native, claimed his 2nd great grandmother was daughter of Nikatai. Its only confusing to us nothing more, nor does proving her allow any one in her said tribe simple because we would not meet other requirements to do so. So were not trying to join tribes or make up new history, the trader Hughes story itself is too old to be concidered new age, im not showing nothing of shawneoo Cleopatra, my family story goes to my 4th grandfather Governor John Floyd, thats second great grandmother that had a direct connection to the 1600s, was said daughter of Nicketti Powhatan i think it was middle 1700s when our family first started telling this in story form and there are documents showing how long this has been getting told in story form, i know after my grandfather named his daughter this, he also had a few granddaughters with the name. First on recording being named this for this reason in US history, another reason were only trying to figure out if Nicketti Powhatan was not my 9th Grandmother than who was the mother of Mary Elizabeth Hughes. Thats all. See we cant get past her without proving out or disproving this very old family story in the way nothing more. I can't call no one a fraud or lier, without seeing there proof there not, we gave Encyclopedia Virginia our family tree and story, including sources to everyone to MARY Elizabeth Hughes. Nicketti is only story form from very long time ago tho. So im not saying she was real or fake or saying this is true, im trying to see if there's proof proving its not true. It a very old story and were only trying to see what to make of it, we were not alive, nor were our Grandparents when this got started, see understand if Nicketti was really in history and something shows this it dont allow any one in a tribe not sure why people think this, the tribes hate this story and dont claim it, proving it does nothing towards any of them, it only shows the story a lie or truth nothing more, if its proved wrong then great and shameful to be part of the story, because i agree that's not cool, so really folks are only trying to see the truth or not of it. Simply nothing more. Amherst Museum even has a parking meter painted in town as her image, so what gives and who is who. And is Ancestry. Com allowing fake people add family, because i read a warning fronm them telling people not to add fake Nicketti jane Eagle Plume Story, that is not the Floyd story, and they never Flagged or slapped warning s to any of the profile s as being fake people in history, they do this, any time someone tryed linking there family to the Powhatan Profiles falsely. Mainly just trying to understand everything because i see no one claiming to be native unless they were especially someone whos father was said to have been killed by the native they never got to meet. So yes this confusing how this was getting told wile they were helping make the Frontier. Im confused about the shawneoo Cleopatra it's not in the very old Floyd story, but im not saying nothing about it because i dont know it nor the Green. But we re is the proof Nicketti was fraudulent or fake person, because i know for a fact its an old story that goes directly to the JAMES Town Petition, BECAUSE the Nicketti story started the search that found that document. That matches the story. But i agree it could all be just a story that's the only reason were looking nothing more. Far as i know no one has showed proof there Powhatan to the original tribe ever.
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Should say far as i know Cleopatra shawneoo is mr. Green s story, not the Nicketti story or Floyds. Sry this stuff been going on for years, if one more person that say they do native Genealogy and native dont have royal titles is getting old, every one on the world know s that, but everyone knows Queen Elizabeth crowned Powhatan a king and called Pocohontas a Princess, so the VA tribes call Powhatan a king them selves, not us. Thats stupid.
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The Family tree was given to the Encyclopedia Virginia mam, not you. Thats when they deleted the Nicketti Powhatan profile. I took Ni Ka tai home since she was fake, and only way to change definition s in encyclopedia is give proof making them see at least Nicketti was needed re looked into, that was 2 yr ago so far as i know her definition nor her profile is on there making your blog s source fake. Because its not in the Encyclopedia. You are making it impossible to prove the story out because Ancestry. Com deleted the Jane Eagle Plume story , Ancestry. Com does stop people from adding fake people to there Powhatan profiles they have. To only Powhatan nothing past him like the Greens , and that was your family's fake Nicketti jane Eagle Plume story that Ancestry. Com deleted and warned. About making fake people. To the Powhatan Profiles. According to the blog you told your husband his grandmother was a princess then found out it was fake. So you are set to prove the original story fake. We gave you sourced information to Mary Elizabeth Hughes, at Encyclopedia Virginia call them and ask them why they dont say what your your blog saying they say anymore. You act like folks are in a tribe, or able to join one with proof, thats not even possible. Read her tribes guidelines.
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@J Floyd, WTF! Who are you? And are you off your medication? Please, at least introduce yourself. Lol.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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Strange post
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Hello! My mom is very much into genealogy too, and we have books of family tree stuff. There was a story in my birth father's side of the family that there was Native blood on that side. It was either supposed to have been my Great Grandmother on one grandparent's side or my Great Great Grandmother on the other side. We did extensive searches, but was able to get little information.
My mom learned that many families out west claimed to have native blood as a way of legitimizing their right to be there. "Oh, I'm part native, I can be here!" without ever really being able to prove it because of many young native children being forced to westernize in schools, changing their names, cutting their hair, dressing "normal", etc. Basically striping their cultures. There was also a lot of stereotyping, where the claims from my own family were basically "well she acted grumpy/sullen, had dark hair, and tan skin, so she must be native!" ... almost everyone has tan skin in Arazona, unless you are like be and don't tan.
To find out if we were chasing a false trail, I paid to have my DNA run through Ancestry's database. It was a myth, I was told we had Native blood, but not a drop showed up. I am about 99% European (61% British, 13% Irish, 7% Scandinavian [aka: Viking] and misc. others) and like 1% Middle-Eastern, likely due to trade and immigration patterns.
Genealogy couldn't say if I was Native American or not because of bad record keeping, but DNA definitely says I am not. Stories abounded saying I had Native blood, but my DNA says otherwise and I am glad to know the truth.
I do recall there being a big push to document Native American DNA by Ancestry(.com) because proof makes a tree legitimate where stories are just supposed to be fun things added to make the tree more human. A story can be made up, and without some sort of record, things become vague and fakes show up. It happened in two different branches of my family tree, it can happen in anyone's.