NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: benbarnes on December 24, 2014, 05:56:51 pm
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I want to first introduce myself, before I get into what I really want to say:
My name is Ben Barnes and I am an enrolled Shawnee Tribal citizen living in NE Oklahoma. I am also Delaware by blood. I have been a member of our ceremonial community all my life, and now find myself holding the office of 2nd chief within the Tribal Office's government.
These last several years of being in office, I have begun to engage in the former historic homelands and institutions back east. The Shawnee lived in a vast area of the eastern US, covering more than 25 states. We are arguably the most traveled tribe in the United States. After our removals from the east and resettlement into Oklahoma, the Shawnee became three separate Tribal Nations: The Absentee Shawnee, the Eastern Shawnee, and the Shawnee Tribe.
I had always heard that there were these groups of phoneys back east, but until I was in office, I had no idea how damaging, disrespectful and insidious their activities truly were. Currently, there are 33 known Fake Shawnee groups calling themselves "tribes" organized as 501(c)3s which allows them to solicit for donations and participant in grants that are meant for real Native people. These 33 fake groups have also performed mockeries of ceremonies. Their pan-indian sideshows are minstrel shows and when encountered for the first time, it was quite shocking.
A few years ago, I encountered one fraud group that was performing a "Shawnee Green Corn" in the Cumberland Gap National Park. The Park Service had went so far as to even advertise the event to the public. There is only one place on earth that a Shawnee Green Corn can occur, and that is my home ground here in Oklahoma.
Since then, I have devoted myself to opposing these fakes at every opportunity. They engage at Historical Sites, Historical Societies and even on University Campus. We have our own versions of Ward Churchill, people that have claimed to be Shawnee that are not and have used that claim to advance themselves professionally.
The Shawnees were removed from their homelands. When they could not kill us off, they took our lands and tried to get our people to assimilate or to extinguish us. And now we find the same people wanting to *be* us. They claim that they hid out or got left behind, but meanwhile the historical record shows that 89 year old women were forced marched out of Ohio in the middle of winter. If any one of those elders could have stayed, they would have. These folks did not have a choice. Their tenuous fabrications of having black hair, cheek bones and noses is more than offensive, it pisses us off. They did not hide out.
Decades of anthropologists, ethnographers, and linguists spent time with the Shawnee documenting our people. We were fortunate that a great many of our former leaders were famous enough to generate this kind of attention. During that nearly century of work, NOT ONCE did those professionals obtain information about folks being left behind or staying back east. We were not allowed. We.Were.Not.Wanted. The removal of our people was a pogrom, plain and simple.
The following list is the 33 fake 501(c)3s that pretend to be us and are thieves, charlatans and guilty of minstrel shows. There are at least twice as many others that are not organized as non-profits. When these groups are encountered, I am the person to bring it to. While I may not be able to identify an individual as being one of the 3 REAL Shawnees, I can certainly tell you if an activity is Shawnee or if a group is a fraud.
For those Fakes that visit here, take this as a warning. I oppose your existence. I will use every remedy to extinguish you and your thieving appropriations. You will not make minstrelry of our ceremonies. Your pidgin language is offensive. I have and will continue to call Governors, Senators and Representatives to fight against your attempts at any form of recognition. You will not represent us in schools, universities and conferences.
This is a black wampum message to my fellow NDNs back east. Help me and my fellow Shawnees put an end to their appropriations.
- Ben Barnes, Second Chief of the Shawnee Tribe and member of the White Oak ceremonial community
LIST OF FRAUDS BEGINS HERE-----
CURRENT LIST OF KNOWN FAKE SHAWNEE TRIBES, THEIR STATES AND AGENTS
ALABAMA
Piqua Shawnee Tribe
Picqua Shawnee Tribe (splinter of the Piqua Shawnee)
ILLINOIS
Vinyard Indian Settlement
INDIANA
Platform Reservation Remnant Band of Shawnee (Indiana HQ)
Upper Kiskopo Band of the Shawnee Nation
KANSAS
United Tribe of Shawnee Indians
Shawnee County Allied Tribes, Inc (?)
KENTUCKY
Ridgetop Shawnee
Southeastern Kentucky Shawnee
LOUISIANA
Kispoko Sept of Ohio Shawnee, Louisiana Chapter
MARYLAND
Yougiogaheny River Band of Shawnee Indians, Inc
NORTH CAROLINA
Near River Dwellers (Claiming kin to everyone on Dawes Rolls)
OHIO
Chaliawa (Cat Nation) Indian Reservation
Eastern Band Shawnee (led once by John Reese; not the same as Eastern Shawnee)
Shawnee Nation United Remnant Band of Ohio
Shawnee Nation United Remnant Band
Piqua Sept of Ohio Shawnees, aka Piqua Shawnee Tribe
Mekoce Shawnee
Morning Star Shawnee Nation
East of the River Shawnee
Lower Eastern Ohio Mekoce Shawnee (Listed as Non-profit Human Service Org)
Lower Eastern Ohio Mekojay Shawnee
Shawnee Nation Blue Creek Band
Piqua Sept of Ohio Shawnee
Piqua Shawnee
Platform Reservation Remnant Band of Shawnee (Indiana HQ)
Kispoko Sept of Ohio Shawnees (Hog Creek Reservation)
Chickamauga Keetoowah Unami Wolf Band of Cherokee Delaware Shawnee of Ohio, West Virginia & Virginia
Alleghenny Nation Indian Center
Tall Tree Tribe Piqua Shawnee Turtle Clan
VIRGINIA
Chickamauga Keetoowah Unami Wolf Band of Cherokee Delaware Shawnee of Ohio, West Virginia & Virginia
WEST VIRGINIA
Appalachian Shawnee Tribe
Chickamauga Keetoowah Unami Wolf Band of Cherokee Delaware Shawnee of Ohio, West Virginia & Virginia
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Welcome to the board Chief Barnes. I visited White Oak back in 2004, nice community. Stay strong! Stiwi
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welcome to the board i am from the Standing Rock reservation good to see more Native stand up against frauds
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Welcome, Ben. It's good to have you here.
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Hello Ben -
These are my views, and I speak for no one else here.
I appreciate your effort, but I believe that both the Eastern and the Absentee have perfect right to conduct green corn if they wish.
While I can appreciate your effort, I find your new claim of the Loyal band as being THE "Shawnee" offensive. There are also Shawnee in the Eastern Band, the Absentee Band, and in refuge among the Ojibwe of Kettle Point. (These last have been petitioning for many years for separate Canadian federal recognition).
In my view, I would prefer the formation of a "Shawnee Nation" consisting of an Eastern Band, Absentee Band, WHITE OAK BAND, and the Canadian Band. Of course that would require you to humble yourself enough to meet with the other leaders and speak with them as equals.
Also changes in signage and letterhead.
In any case, in my view the Shawnee covenant belt needs to be healed, with your help or without it.
(I learned from Jeff Wilson about his very good sharing of a small part of the nation's history with you. It is the breaking of the convenant belt in Portsmouth in 1776 which needs to be healed.)
Actually, there were a lot of people who could "pass", and did.
I know this personally.
You can meet many of them by attending Oldtown Days held at Oldtown Maryland. (The real estate developers dropped the "Shawnee" part from the name "Shawnee Old Town".)
The effects of the conquest has provided various confused people with opportunities for both deliberate fraud and more innocently doing harm.
In my view, in recent times the state recognition processes have also led to confusion. Again, and importantly, this is simply my own view.
Again in my view, the only way to bring this confusion to an end is by the Shawnee Nation to form a Shawnee National Ancestry Organization.
But then the reformation of the Shawnee Nation that would require some changes in attitude on your own part.
I speak only for myself here, as it would be very presumptuous of me to assert any rights as a descendant of the Thewighila Division, or from clan.
I will simply note that its going to be a large and difficult job, and the question that presents itself is whether you are up to it.
You also need to understand that you can not do this alone.
In the meantime, I will simply work on recovering Shawnee history.
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Hello Ben.
I live in Ohio and have heard of everyone of those groups at one time or other. Having done research, dismissed each one as fakes and wannabes. I know one sect has acquired and operates Zane's Caverns near Bellefontaine. I think it's the Shawnee Nation United Remnant Band. The caverns impressed me, but nothing else.
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Hello Ben.
I live in Ohio and have heard of everyone of those groups at one time or other. Having done research, dismissed each one as fakes and wannabes. I know one sect has acquired and operates Zane's Caverns near Bellefontaine. I think it's the Shawnee Nation United Remnant Band. The caverns impressed me, but nothing else.
Hi Larry -
I do not live in Ohio, but I have heard much about these groups.
I was told that Jerry Pope has met his fate, and the United Remnant Band affair has nearly come to end,
with but a few details yet to be cleared up.
He leaves behind great damage and many victims.
I will have to disagree with both your and Keely Dennison's assessment of the East of the River.
Some of the individuals involved in it have done great work in preserving ancient ceremonial sites
while working under extreme difficulties.
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Good article on fake Shawnee. Click on the link for a video. It was absolutely sickening. Also here's another link for their Facebook page where Keely Denning is giving them a well deserved smack down. https://www.facebook.com/FortAncient. Go to April 2 date. Also http://ancestorstealing.blogspot.com/ good genealogy work on a lot of these fakes.
An Imitation Pow Wow? Controversy Haunts Fort Ancient’s Gathering in Ohio
Tish Leizens
5/19/15
On its 25th anniversary this June, a gathering in Oregonia, Ohio, hosted by Fort Ancient, is still answering questions about the integrity of their educational and inter-tribal celebration.
The controversy comes from the misrepresentation of the Shawnee people, and other Native tribes’ cultures. The organizers of the pow wow are not Native American, but at least one dancer, Charles Hodges (head male dancer), is part of a federally recognized tribe, according to Jack Blosser, the site manager at Fort Ancient.
An interview by ICTMN also reveals what seems to be a lack of substantive and continual discussions between leaders of federally recognized tribes and the host of the gathering. “We need to sit down and have a conversation. We have to remove stereotypes. This is not the way Indians are,” said Ben Barnes, second chief of the Eastern Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma. Barnes said that he has corresponded with the Ohio Historical Society, a private nonprofit organization that administers the Fort Ancient site, but they have not specifically talked about the pow wow.
In the absence of a conversation between Fort Ancient and tribal leaders, social media is buzzing with public comments on sites like Facebook. “It looks to me that this group is a bunch of wannabees attempting to find any federally recognized tribe for an endorsement. I was born a Choctaw 63 years ago and know what being an Indian is about. I resent you people playing Indian,” James Brown wrote on Fort Ancient’s Facebook page.
“This is a hobbyist gathering, they are claiming to represent the Shawnee and other tribes, but they are dressing wrong and dancing wrong. It has become a full mockery of all Indian people from all tribes,” said Keely Squirrel Denning, a member of the Shawnee tribe, who referenced a Youtube video.
For instance, Denning said, in what is called a “long dance,” a teen female appears wearing a light blue shawl and wearing a Pocahontas Halloween costume and cowboy boots. Some people wear war bonnets and that’s offensive, she said.
Video of Long dance
“I believe the majority of the Shawnee people, and people from other tribes who are falsely represented, would like to make their presence known at Fort Ancient. Instead of having these people who are not from our cultures, teaching things they believe to be true -- step aside -- and let the real descendants teach the right way. Let us tell our story. Let us dance for their people,” Denning said.
Acknowledging that there are concerns, Fort Ancient on its page in April, said, “While plans for the 2015 event are well under way, we do take these concerns seriously, and have implemented measures to address legitimate concerns.”
Kristy Creel, director of marketing of public relations of Dayton Society of Natural History, the organization that operates Fort Ancient, said, that for this year anyone who has been invited to participate in any official capacity, including vendors, security and presenters have been asked to sign an agreement.
The agreement, according to Creel, is in additional to their normal contract and states that the person involved in the gathering is aware of and will adhere to all applicable federal laws. “All vendors must include signage that indicates their status, and we will be spot-checking vendors to ensure that no false claims are being made,” she said.
As for the Shawnee tribes, Creel said Lynn Hanson, their vice president of collections and research, has been working with Barnes and Chief Glenna Wallace of the Eastern Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma on the issues raised. “[Hanson] has been working to bring representatives to our sites, encouraging individuals to come and simply dance, or participate in a more official capacity. This is something we have not yet reached an agreement on,” Creel said.
“We have not been to this pow wow. The Native tribes in Oklahoma would love to participate,” said Barnes, adding that he is concerned that the public may think of the event as a circus.
In the meantime, come June 13-14, Fort Ancient will host the 25th Annual Fort Ancient Celebration: A Gathering of Four Directions on their grounds. They said the public is welcome to watch featured performers: flutist Douglas Blue Feather, 100 dancers and three drum groups. Other performers are Randy Church, MC; Charles Keith, head Vet; Charles Hodges, head male; Tammy Woods, head woman; and Southern Singers and Sky Hawk, drums.
“We are simply trying to educate the public about the prehistoric and historic past as best as we can,” Blosser said.
Read more at http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/05/19/imitation-pow-wow-controversy-haunts-fort-ancients-gathering-ohio-160409?page=0%2C1
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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I will have to disagree with both your and Keely Dennison's assessment of the East of the River.
E.P I was merely making a personal observation being within state proximity. There are many people, native and non-native, that have worked to maintain ancient ceremonial sites in Ohio including but not limited to Newark Circle Earthworks, Hopewell Cultural Historic Park, Serpent Mound and various mound sites around the state.
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Diana, thanks for linking that thread to Facebook. OMG I love seeing fakes smashed like that. It is heart-warming and inspiring. Keely is a warrior! The others also on there, too. Two Thumbs Up, folks. That's what REAL looks like. People who claim all this and that are EASILY debunked in this day and age. You'd think anyone dumb enough to claim non-existent ancestry would be smart enough to at least know an active community that claims them, but nah.
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Wow. Linette Torbet's FB profile is a rabbit hole of pretendian MUCK.
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Here is the situation, to the best of my knowledge.
The Ohio Historical Society is a private organization;
Dick Shiels and Brd Lepper are professional archaeologists whose status depends on controlling sites.
No Shawnee are consulted by them.
Marti at the Newark center is a very confused sioux lady.
(just to clear this up, I knew Wendell, who fought for the right to keep his hair, and crafted tipis, pretty well.)
The Shawnee were scxattered into 3 federally recognized Bands, and a Canadian remnant. None of the leaders talk with each other at any depth.
The more remote descendants back east were seriously damaged by Jerry Pope's fraud.
(One of the most hilarious pictures is Pope with the leaders of the federally recognized tribes at a major event.
Another of my "favorite" items is a vocabulary list that Pope had the nerve to send to Eminie Vogelin.)
The federally recognized bands have more immediate business to tend to than the remains back east, not only here in Ohio but in other states as well.
The Ohio Historical Society did not allow powwows to be held at any of "their" sites,
up until Dick worked with Marti to bring in Sioux to one of White Hawk's rings here at Newark.
Other than that, back in 1992 the Ohio Historical Society leased out the other ball court-ring complex to a golf club for 100 years.
To my knowledge, Dick and Brad raised no objections.
This ceremonial complex was gifted to the Ohio Historical Society by the citizens of Newark so that it would be preserved and people could visit it.
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As regards the Fort Ancient Celebration, it is more than a powwow, as colonial re-enactors have always been participants.
Remember, the Ohio Historical Society does not allow powwows to be held by any people with ancestral connections to the sites,
and this includes Cherokee.
Jakc Blosser has the complete support of the community,
who use food sales at the event to fund charitable activities.
No one has ever been allowed to misrepresent their crafts.
While due to the recession cheap knick knakcs for children are now hesitantly allowed,
in general, if you don't make it, you can't sell it.
Carded nationals have traveled to the event from as far away as Canada,and the Pacific Coast.
The event is inter-tribal, always has been, and always will be.
Those nationals attend year after year, and would not hesitate to speak up if anything were wrong.
The celebration is one of Ohio's best events.
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I will have to disagree with both your and Keely Dennison's assessment of the East of the River.
E.P I was merely making a personal observation being within state proximity. There are many people, native and non-native, that have worked to maintain ancient ceremonial sites in Ohio including but not limited to Newark Circle Earthworks, Hopewell Cultural Historic Park, Serpent Mound and various mound sites around the state.
Hi Larry -
I've met at lot of them as well.
Most are entirely fed up with the Ohio Historical Society.
Id like to mention here some of the better Ohio archaeologists.
Hooge, Pacheco, Romaine, De Regnacourt, Tanklersley, and other folks from, the Univerity of Cincinatti,
many people with the Archaeological Society of Ohio, and many rescue field excavators.
Hell, the archaeologists from Germany who worked on the Scioto and Paint Rivers are better than Shiels and Lepper.
Their graphics and notes used to be downloadable.
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"As for the Shawnee tribes, Creel said Lynn Hanson, their vice president of collections and research, has been working with Barnes and Chief Glenna Wallace of the Eastern Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma on the issues raised. “[Hanson] has been working to bring representatives to our sites, encouraging individuals to come and simply dance, or participate in a more official capacity. This is something we have not yet reached an agreement on,” Creel said."
Note that Ms. Hansen has to get Barnes and Wallace together.
And no one from the Abserntee has spoken with her yet.
(By the way, carded Absentee participate in one of the drums at the Celebration.
You can also meet former members of an organization that no longer exists there as well.)
Once again, the Celebration is inter-tribal, and more than a native event.
The Dayton Historical Society also runs Sunwatch Village, and all the people at their events there are carded.
( I know this because one of their members asked me to get a CIDB so I could participate.
I have not done this yet, but instead I keep my genealogy and DNA test with me.)
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First off, I'd like to thank whoever posted the news of Jerry Pope's passing.
That still leaves the recovery of assets from his heirs to be done.
keely, the legal documents concerning Popes exposure and the URB are available for public view in Bellefontaine.
Your labeling the East of the River as "split offs" is not accurate.
Your claim that "Dark Rain" Thom heads the East of the River is not accurate either.
Now I want to speak personally.
First off, on the French Canadian side of my family Anne Huronne's marriage into the Hamelins and the
foundation of the Hamelin dit Grondine family was known to me and all my other relatives on my father's side.
I never gave mixed ancestry much thought.
I only learned about my mother's side after she had passed.
And I only learned what had happened back int the 1750's by two day's reading in the History Room ( which no longer exists) in the Library at Cumberland, Maryland.
While you may have problems with this,
it looks to me like it was as popular and fashionable to have Native ancestry
as it was to have African American ancestry,
up until the nations got casinos.
Thus your constantly taking a census declaration of "white" made long ago as absolute proof of No native ancestry is pretty questionable.
You and others speak about the "removal" as though it only happened in the 1830's,
when in fact in began in the 1680's for the Shawnee.
Your knowledge of the Shawnee at the salt springs in southern Illinois is non-existent.
Asa far as Brian Darst's family goes, my thinking is that if any person's right to represent is recognized by the leaders of that nation,
and that nation is not your own,
my thinking that while you may question their decision, you must recognize it.
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Hi Ben -
I think your anger is mis-directed.
In my opinion, you should get together with Okima Wallace and whoever is leading the Absentee after Governor George and petition the Ohio Historical Society to hold Ceremony proper at any of "their" sites and watch what happens.
For that matter, you might join with Chief Wallace in her request to the Ohio Historical Society for the return of the remains of known historical (recent) Shawnee.
If you spoke with her about her struggle with this, you would learn a lot.
Your attack with keely on Jack Blosser and his actions over the last 25 years is beyond the "pales".
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@ EP Groundin, first off let's get one thing straight, YOU ARE NOT INDIAN, so knock that shit off right now! Second, I don't think I like your tone in your reply to Mr. Ben Barnes. I don't know Mr. Barnes nor have I ever met him, but he is an actual citizen of the Shawnee Tribe in Oklahoma and most likely knows his Tribe's history, culture and people. Unlike you or the disgusting white frauds at Fort Ancient, Serpent mound Festival or any other of the white fake ass Ohio culture clubs. (I will not call them Tribes) Mr. Barnes is an actual Shawnee Indian.
How dare you dictate what his people can and cannot do or take offense to, such as the Shawnee Green Corn ceremony or their powwows. This is Mr. Barne's people not yours or those white frauds in Ohio. He has every right to be offened and digusted with what you and these white frauds are doing, further more why are you a white person telling an actual Shaneew Indian to humble himself?? Also why are you responding to Keely Dennison who has not posted here since 2006? Or other posts from 2011. WTF!
I've looked onto this Serpent mound Festival you're speaking at and it is just as disgusting as the Fort Ancient debacle. I noticed that The Ohio Historical Society is not letting the festival on the Serpent mound grounds and the festival is down the road a Soaring Eagle lodge. This festival much like the Fort Ancient debacle has the usual suspects. Weird looking white people with the creepy bad dye jobs and insulting Indian names.They even manage to get an actual Zuni Indian who's a nut job that believes in UFO's, star seeds and the usual whacko new age shit.
I'm not a moderator EP, but I think your white ass has warn out your welcome here. Please quit using NAFPS for your own agenda of defending fake culture clubs and their harmful ways.
Diana
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Forgot to post the link to EP's fraud festival. Have a look it's as hilarious as that Fort Ancient festival.
http://www.serpentmound.org/festival.html
Diana
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I'm not a moderator EP, but I think your white ass has warn out your welcome here. Please quit using NAFPS for your own agenda of defending fake culture clubs and their harmful ways.
Diana
@ EP GRONDINE...
I'm just going to bluntly say here that this^ is a perfectly concise assessment of the sentiments that I and several others here share.
The presumption of a person who did not grow up in a tribal community/culture to condescend to an ACTUAL tribal member (A CHIEF, no less!!!) is beyond reprehensible. This superiority theme of "I know better than the Indians themselves about what's best" is well known to the members of the community here and you owe Mr. Barnes a full apology. I don't give a DAMN how many books you've written, your personal behavior towards this man, his Tribe, and his concerns about fraudulent ceremonies being performed is one of the countless reasons this forum exists. However, I fully expect you to double down on the condescension instead of taking the honorable route, just so everyone sees I'm calling it now. I have a feeling, from reading your posts so far here and in other areas of this site, that you're well-versed in such shenanigans.
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I just looked at the serpent mound festival why would they allow such a thing OH MY GOD
is all i can say
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Well, good morning, all -
A little question.
Are any of you members of any Shawnee band?
Let me make my biases clear.
I resent the cultural genocide of the Shawnee that is taking place.
I resent the Ohio Historical Society's efforts in this regard.
I resent other nations efforts to claim the remains of Shawnee ceremonial centers.
I resent those who attempt to create imaginary histories for the Shawnee.
I resent archaeologists more interested in their careers than public service.
There are people of descent back east.
They are a resource for frauds.
As time progresses, other nations will face these problems.
The solution I see for the Shawnee is the creation of a
Shawneee National Organization, and a Ahawnee National Organization.
I suppose one at a time.
Ben Barnes is a sub-chief of one of the remaining Shawnee bands.
There are other full chiefs, I've met them.
There are many people in the other bands.
I approve fully the choice of removing "loyal" from that bands name,
but to declare themselves THE Shawnee is questionable.
keely is still active, and her information is not always correct.
The attack on Jack Blosser, the Fort Ancient Celebration,
and the Dayton Historical Society is beyond the "pales".
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As far as the summer solstice event at Serpent Mound goes,
it is not my event.
I simply go there and present native history as best as I can.
It is all fine and well to exchange information on frauds on a bbs,
and the information is very useful.
Now try to imagine yourself going to their events and speaking things to them and their followers that they do not wish to hear. Particularly when those things threaten both their incomes and their view of themselves, and interferes with their use of their followers, and their attempts to gain new ones.
There are words, and then there are actions.
As far as the Ohio Historical Society goes,
you will note that they did not invite Bill Romaine to speak,
an archeologist who knows far more about the Serpent than Brad Lepper.
(You may find a summary of his excavation report online.)
No one in the Ohio Historical Society has ever studied
the Five Nations attack on the Shawnee in Ohio during the 1680's,
and you will not hear them speak about he war between the Province of Pennsylvania and the Province of Virginia over the Ohio.
They do their best to suppress information on the relation between
Late Fort Ancient Culture and known contact era Shawnee sites.
They pretend to interest in Native America,
but their primary interest is their careers;
and not service to the people of Ohio, who fund their operations.
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If you go back and look at what I said to sub-chief Ben Barnes,
I told him that in my view he had no right to instruct the Eastern and Absentee Bands about what they could and could not do.
As far as my "white ass" goes, if reminding you of the racism which used to exist offends you, so be it.
I am who I am, which is mixed, and am comfortable with it now.
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As far as my "white ass" goes, if reminding you of the racism which used to exist offends you, so be it.
"Used to exist"? What are you talking about? Racism still exists, and NDNs here are pointing out the ways you're using white privilege and behaving in a rather racist manner by thinking you're better-qualified to speak on NDN issues than are NDNs themselves.
Our Native members and their families deal with racism and cultural preservation every day of their lives. It's not something they can just put down and walk away from, or drop in at a nuage festival and speak to without being attacked and/or tokenized. Those of us with Native family members or heritage who pass as white (or ARE white) can empathize, we can experience some of it when attacks directed at them splatter us as well. But it's not the same. It's technically possible for us to walk away and take a break. Even if we feel it's something we could never live with doing, we still have that option and, deep down, we know it. This means we get to choose our level of investment, risk and exposure; that is privilege. And that privilege means we live with less stress and danger than NDNS who don't pass as white, and that we have the ugly luxury of forgetting that we even have that privilege.
It's also rather insulting for you to imply that you are the only ally going to confront frauds in person. This is another red flag that you're not reading the board. We also don't know if you're actually confronting fraud. In my experience, those of us who actually go to these things and confront the frauds in person wind up kicked out and banned by the white organizers. So I have to wonder what you're teaching "about NDNs" at these nuage festivals that the nuagers are happy to keep having you back.
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I just looked at the serpent mound festival why would they allow such a thing OH MY GOD
is all i can say
Horrible stuff. A bunch of white people doing "American Indian" drumming and carving pipestone... This needs to be stopped, not participated in.
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EP, you are aggressively lecturing. Time to step back - read, listen, learn, then eventually participate. Your possible distant heritage and your health challenges do not excuse you.
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I see where the Shawnees are going to DC on business to the NMAI today... I wonder why EP is not among them?
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EP, you are aggressively lecturing. Time to step back - read, listen, learn, then eventually participate. Your possible distant heritage and your health challenges do not excuse you.
Hi Piff -
I like your logo - a raven, if I am not mistaken.
I choose my words carefully, and it upsets me when I see other words put in my mouth for their own purposes.
Thank you for your council; in the future I will try to stop these bad feelings from intruding.
I am what is left of a journalist and historian.
As a historian, I always held myself to the standard of passing on what was passed on by those responsible for sharing it, and keeping my understanding of it separate, and identified it clearly as being my understanding of what was passed on.
Following this course, I now always check those passings on and understandings with those currently responsible for tribal histories.
That is the only duty which I have, and it extends not only to the Shawnee, but to other nations as well. I perform it as best as I can.
As a former journalist, I take pokvano seriously.
Having watched many nu-age frauds for some years now, I note that you can deal with them one at a time, and that will be exhausting, or you can take them on once and for all.
I hope that the Shawnee Bands will follow the Cherokee example, and form a Shawnee National Organization, and then a Shawnee National Ancestry Organization.
I hope that the Cherokee National Organization will form a Cherokee National
Ancestry Organization.
My thinking is that as time progresses, every nation will face these problems, as well as other problems involved in spanning the two worlds.
I watch the Siouxian peoples dealing with the same problems,
and right now the nu-agers in the Black Hills.
If anyone else has any ideas on a more lasting and peaceful fix to the conmen who work these nu-age frauds, please share them.
Now instead of replying to the insults, here's a little humor:
https://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/05/25/marty-two-bulls-late-late-late-one-night-serpent-mound
and of course, in addition to these seriously confused people you have very bad archaeologists writing about imaginary peoples.
Since my words are being represented by others here, I will now sit back on my fully 1/8 Shawnee ass and watch what happens next.
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Yeah, that's exactly what you need to try and diffuse a situation you created with your condescension. Humor. So timely and appropriate. Then try and associate, then deflect, distract, anything but truly deal with what's caused several people to be upset with you over this.
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1/8th... LOL!!!
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1/8th... LOL!!!
with diabetes and stroke, no less.
May you have problems with your great grand children.
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I stand by what I said to sub-chief Barnes - They are the "White Oak Band", and not THE Shawnee. The Eastern Band and the Absentee Band are also parts of THE Shawnee, as are the Canadian Shawnee among the Kettle Point Ojibwe.
I advise all of you to not attack Jack Blosser, or the Fort Ancient Celebration.
Please attend the event and meet him first.
keely, please get your facts completely straight.
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1/8th... LOL!!!
with diabetes and stroke, no less.
May you have problems with your great grand children.
So now you're cursing people? Unacceptable.
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Dig this- the Shawnee Culture and History Festival at the NMAI in DC (all over Facebook!) and not one pic of EP Grondine anywhere in the crowd. But he's totally a Shawnee historian, right?
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EP Grondine, when are you willing to prove my facts as incorrect?
Jack Blosser is a FRAUD! He is not Indian at all! I can prove it!
You don't know crap about the Shawnee people. You are not Shawnee, you are not even Indian!
I make you a deal, prove Jack Blosser is "real Shawnee" and I will stop attacking him... I prove he is a real fraud and not Shawnee at all, you leave this forum.
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From EP Grondine
"I will have to disagree with both your and Keely Dennison's assessment of the East of the River."
I personally don't care if you agree with me or not... I know what I am talking about, you obviously don't! More so, Claudia Thom's family has written letters to me to tell me I AM RIGHT! They don't know why she pretends to be Shawnee, her family has her genealogy on the internet.
Now, step up to the plate, and produce any document that is from historical records from the US Federal Census stating these people in the EoR are in fact, Indian... that their families are in the records listing themselves as Indian...
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EP Grondine wrote "I find your new claim of the Loyal band as being THE "Shawnee" offensive. There are also Shawnee in the Eastern Band, the Absentee Band, "
We people, of the THREE federally recognized tribe, do not care what offends you! We are recognized Nations, and you are??? Oh snap, I remember, thinking that fakes are the "real thing". Comments you make such as above is what shows your true ignorance about Indian tribes, mostly about Shawnee people.
You are not of our people, so what we call ourselves is quite frankly, none of your business.
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Mr. and Mrs. Edmund Grondine announce the birth of a son at Mercy Hospital. The mother is the former Miss Rose Adams. From a July 1952 newspaper
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For E.P. Grondine:
Charles P. Adams of Old Town, a retired employee of the Taylor Tinplate Mill... (jumping to the important information) he was the husband of the late Bertha Edith Twigg Adams, he was the son of the late John Quincy and Malinda Carder Adams.
He had three sons and six daughters, one of the daughters named is Rose Grondine, Washington, D.C.
Oh snap, weren't you born in Washington, D.C. Edmund?
Oh wait, I forgot, I am not good at this researching stuff, specially compared to a "historical expert" such as yourself, right??
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Hello Ben -
These are my views, and I speak for no one else here.
I appreciate your effort, but I believe that both the Eastern and the Absentee have perfect right to conduct green corn if they wish.
First, Mr. Grondine, there is only one place on the planet that a Shawnee Green Corn can be done. You completely lack any knowledge as to what those components are. It belongs to us and us alone. - BJB
While I can appreciate your effort, I find your new claim of the Loyal band as being THE "Shawnee" offensive. There are also Shawnee in the Eastern Band, the Absentee Band, and in refuge among the Ojibwe of Kettle Point. (These last have been petitioning for many years for separate Canadian federal recognition).
You find it offensive? Oh, sorry I trouble your outsider sensibilities. The Shawnee Tribe as it exists today is comprised of Dawes Roll and Wallace Roll descendants of the Kansas, aka "Loyal" Shawnee. That group was the largest of the groups. It was made up of those removed from the two Ohio reserves at HogCreek and Wapakoneta. It also contained the Black Bob group of shawnees that fled to Missouri and Arkansas. Do you research Mr. Grondine. Others have and concluded the same as I have have published in peer reviewed fashion, I challenge your scholarship to meet that standard.
In my view, I would prefer the formation of a "Shawnee Nation" consisting of an Eastern Band, Absentee Band, WHITE OAK BAND, and the Canadian Band. Of course that would require you to humble yourself enough to meet with the other leaders and speak with them as equals.
There never was a "Shawnee Nation". The villages were scattered across 20+ states at any given time. They were connected through language, beliefs and religion, but not in Government. The tribal towns were autonomous and made there own decisions and allied with whom that group thought best at the time, eg. Lewistown shawnees.
Also changes in signage and letterhead.
In any case, in my view the Shawnee covenant belt needs to be healed, with your help or without it.
Who the heck are you to be talking about the Covenant Belt needing healing? This is the epitome of white privilege to be telling Natives what they "ought to be doing".
(I learned from Jeff Wilson about his very good sharing of a small part of the nation's history with you. It is the breaking of the convenant belt in Portsmouth in 1776 which needs to be healed.)
Actually, there were a lot of people who could "pass", and did.
I know this personally. Awaiting the first bit of proof to this Fairy Tale. Aesop has more truth in his tales.
You can meet many of them by attending Oldtown Days held at Oldtown Maryland. (The real estate developers dropped the "Shawnee" part from the name "Shawnee Old Town".) see above
The effects of the conquest has provided various confused people with opportunities for both deliberate fraud and more innocently doing harm.
In my view, in recent times the state recognition processes have also led to confusion. Again, and importantly, this is simply my own view.
Again in my view, the only way to bring this confusion to an end is by the Shawnee Nation to form a Shawnee National Ancestry Organization. White privilege much?
But then the reformation of the Shawnee Nation that would require some changes in attitude on your own part.
I speak only for myself here, as it would be very presumptuous of me to assert any rights as a descendant of the Thewighila Division, or from clan. You sir are not Thawikila. I know those folks. And you sir, arent it. Present some proof. Not your grandmother's stories. Not some construct to climb the racial ladder of society because some ancestor was not *white enough* so they claimed native. A tribe is a Nation that has treaties with the US and others. You sir, are not a citizen. While you state you have descent (yet to be proven), you are not Native nor a citizen. Dont speak for us.
I will simply note that its going to be a large and difficult job, and the question that presents itself is whether you are up to it.
You also need to understand that you can not do this alone.
In the meantime, I will simply work on recovering Shawnee history. Peer review ever much? Interesting that the Voegelin's never found your so called bunch. PUBLISH for Peer Review! If there were truth to these claims, we'd welcome it.
You sir, are an internet troll. In fact you are worse than the recent Spokane NAACP scandal. You have done nothing but cause trouble and confusion for native people. Use the empirical method on your claims. Come back to me after.
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Here is the situation, to the best of my knowledge.
The Ohio Historical Society is a private organization;
Dick Shiels and Brd Lepper are professional archaeologists whose status depends on controlling sites.
No Shawnee are consulted by them.
Marti at the Newark center is a very confused sioux lady.
(just to clear this up, I knew Wendell, who fought for the right to keep his hair, and crafted tipis, pretty well.)
The Shawnee were scxattered into 3 federally recognized Bands, and a Canadian remnant. None of the leaders talk with each other at any depth. There is no Canadian Remnant.
The more remote descendants back east were seriously damaged by Jerry Pope's fraud. You fakes use to defend this guy? What one scandal and you guys no longer buddies?
(One of the most hilarious pictures is Pope with the leaders of the federally recognized tribes at a major event.
Another of my "favorite" items is a vocabulary list that Pope had the nerve to send to Eminie Vogelin.)
The federally recognized bands have more immediate business to tend to than the remains back east, not only here in Ohio but in other states as well.
The Ohio Historical Society did not allow powwows to be held at any of "their" sites,
up until Dick worked with Marti to bring in Sioux to one of White Hawk's rings here at Newark.
Other than that, back in 1992 the Ohio Historical Society leased out the other ball court-ring complex to a golf club for 100 years.
To my knowledge, Dick and Brad raised no objections.
This ceremonial complex was gifted to the Ohio Historical Society by the citizens of Newark so that it would be preserved and people could visit it.
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Well, good morning, all -
A little question.
Are any of you members of any Shawnee band?
Let me make my biases clear.
I resent the cultural genocide of the Shawnee that is taking place. Then quit being a party to it.
I resent the Ohio Historical Society's efforts in this regard.
I resent other nations efforts to claim the remains of Shawnee ceremonial centers.
I resent those who attempt to create imaginary histories for the Shawnee. Again ^^^^
I resent archaeologists more interested in their careers than public service.
There are people of descent back east. Have not found one yet. Delegations of our folks went up in the 80s and 90s, and there are no kin left. Primary sources confirm that even the 92 year old women were removed.
They are a resource for frauds.
As time progresses, other nations will face these problems.
The solution I see for the Shawnee is the creation of a
Shawneee National Organization, and a Ahawnee National Organization. This have never existed, nor can it ever. And your confusing the political leadership with the religious leadership
I suppose one at a time.
Ben Barnes is a sub-chief of one of the remaining Shawnee bands.That is Chief Barnes to you. I am an elected Tribal official, which is just a political office, but I am elected by THE PEOPLE. Again, you confused the elected leadership and the religous leadership when you use that term "Okima
There are other full chiefs, I've met them.
There are many people in the other bands. Doh!
I approve fully the choice of removing "loyal" from that bands name,
but to declare themselves THE Shawnee is questionable. This was done by act of Congress. Glad you know better than Congress or the Shawnee people. White privilege much?
keely is still active, and her information is not always correct.
The attack on Jack Blosser, the Fort Ancient Celebration,
and the Dayton Historical Society is beyond the "pales".
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If your such a damned good Historian, how come I have never seen your work on JSTOR or Wiley? Nor at the American Society of Ethnohistory? You are an internet troll and self-published *guru* for all those NDN Rachel Dolezal's out there. No different. Well, I retrack that. She actually tried to help folks. Your narcissistic malfunction actually is harmful.
EP, you are aggressively lecturing. Time to step back - read, listen, learn, then eventually participate. Your possible distant heritage and your health challenges do not excuse you.
Hi Piff -
I like your logo - a raven, if I am not mistaken.
I choose my words carefully, and it upsets me when I see other words put in my mouth for their own purposes.
Thank you for your council; in the future I will try to stop these bad feelings from intruding.
I am what is left of a journalist and historian.
As a historian, I always held myself to the standard of passing on what was passed on by those responsible for sharing it, and keeping my understanding of it separate, and identified it clearly as being my understanding of what was passed on.
Following this course, I now always check those passings on and understandings with those currently responsible for tribal histories.
That is the only duty which I have, and it extends not only to the Shawnee, but to other nations as well. I perform it as best as I can.
As a former journalist, I take pokvano seriously.
Having watched many nu-age frauds for some years now, I note that you can deal with them one at a time, and that will be exhausting, or you can take them on once and for all.
I hope that the Shawnee Bands will follow the Cherokee example, and form a Shawnee National Organization, and then a Shawnee National Ancestry Organization.
I hope that the Cherokee National Organization will form a Cherokee National
Ancestry Organization.
My thinking is that as time progresses, every nation will face these problems, as well as other problems involved in spanning the two worlds.
I watch the Siouxian peoples dealing with the same problems,
and right now the nu-agers in the Black Hills.
If anyone else has any ideas on a more lasting and peaceful fix to the conmen who work these nu-age frauds, please share them.
Now instead of replying to the insults, here's a little humor:
https://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/05/25/marty-two-bulls-late-late-late-one-night-serpent-mound
and of course, in addition to these seriously confused people you have very bad archaeologists writing about imaginary peoples.
Since my words are being represented by others here, I will now sit back on my fully 1/8 Shawnee ass and watch what happens next.
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So, if your 1/8th, Great grandma was a Full Blood! That is easy to track down! We will even help! What was her name. We will either find her, or publish the truth.
EP, you are aggressively lecturing. Time to step back - read, listen, learn, then eventually participate. Your possible distant heritage and your health challenges do not excuse you.
Hi Piff -
I like your logo - a raven, if I am not mistaken.
I choose my words carefully, and it upsets me when I see other words put in my mouth for their own purposes.
Thank you for your council; in the future I will try to stop these bad feelings from intruding.
I am what is left of a journalist and historian.
As a historian, I always held myself to the standard of passing on what was passed on by those responsible for sharing it, and keeping my understanding of it separate, and identified it clearly as being my understanding of what was passed on.
Following this course, I now always check those passings on and understandings with those currently responsible for tribal histories.
That is the only duty which I have, and it extends not only to the Shawnee, but to other nations as well. I perform it as best as I can.
As a former journalist, I take pokvano seriously.
Having watched many nu-age frauds for some years now, I note that you can deal with them one at a time, and that will be exhausting, or you can take them on once and for all.
I hope that the Shawnee Bands will follow the Cherokee example, and form a Shawnee National Organization, and then a Shawnee National Ancestry Organization.
I hope that the Cherokee National Organization will form a Cherokee National
Ancestry Organization.
My thinking is that as time progresses, every nation will face these problems, as well as other problems involved in spanning the two worlds.
I watch the Siouxian peoples dealing with the same problems,
and right now the nu-agers in the Black Hills.
If anyone else has any ideas on a more lasting and peaceful fix to the conmen who work these nu-age frauds, please share them.
Now instead of replying to the insults, here's a little humor:
https://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/05/25/marty-two-bulls-late-late-late-one-night-serpent-mound
and of course, in addition to these seriously confused people you have very bad archaeologists writing about imaginary peoples.
Since my words are being represented by others here, I will now sit back on my fully 1/8 Shawnee ass and watch what happens next.
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Thank you, Chief Barnes.
We blocked Mr. Grondine for his offensiveness. If you want us to let him back in to respond, just let us know. I told him he has to apologize to you and the other Natives he's insulted before we'd even consider it.
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Yells At Pretendians... I like you :)
His turn will be coming, Sam is busy with his blog and other things, but I assure you, Edmund's turn is coming...
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I've been sitting on this for a while, finally had time and wifi to post. E P Grodine you are a fraud and deserve your own page. Kathryn, please lift the ban on old white fakeass Grondine so he can address the facts.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
PS. Please note Mr. Adams parents birthplace West Virginia
Rose Adams Grondine in the Virginia, Death Records, 1912-2014
Record Image Index-only record
Name:
Rose Adams Grondine
Gender:
Female
Race:
White
Age at Death:
85
Birth Date:
abt 1913
Death Date:
22 Jul 1998
Death Place:
Orange, Virginia, USA
Rose W Adams in the 1920 United States Federal Census
Name:
Rose W Adams
Age:
8
Birth Year:
abt 1912
Birthplace:
Maryland
Home in 1920:
Oldtown, Allegany, Maryland
Race:
White
Gender:
Female
Relation to Head of House:
Daughter (Child)
Marital Status:
Single
Father's name:
Charles P Adams
Father's Birthplace:
Maryland
Mother's name:
Birtha E Adams
Mother's Birthplace:
Maryland
Able to Speak English:
Yes
Attended School:
Yes
Neighbors:
View others on page
Household Members:
Name
Age
Charles P Adams 45
Save & create tree ? ?Print Share?
Charles P Adams in the 1920 United States Federal Census
Name:
Charles P Adams
Age:
45
Birth Year:
abt 1875
Birthplace:
West Virginia
Home in 1920:
Oldtown, Allegany, Maryland
House Number:
X
Race:
White
Gender:
Male
Relation to Head of House:
Head
Marital Status:
Married
Spouse's Name:
Birtha E Adams
Father's Birthplace:
West Virginia
Mother's Birthplace:
West Virginia
Able to Speak English:
Yes
Occupation:
Labor
Industry:
Tin Mill
Employment Field:
Wage or Salary
Neighbors:
View others on page
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He hasn't apologized but if you want him back: Unbanned.
If you want to start a new thread on him specifically, feel free to do so and copy whatever you want from the current threads to a new one. I think that would be better than splitting some posts off as the info on the Shawnee (real and fake) is kind of scattered in among the other stuff here.
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Helllol -
keely, keep on going to "Bent" Twigg.
His daughter Bertha was my grandmother,
not great grandmother.
I suppose I will be hearing from you about my African American ancestry next, since it seems to me there is little way he could have passed as "white" on the census forms.
The situation then was such:
if you could pass as white on census forms, you did it.
Ben, the reason why the Loyal Shawnee received that name from the colonists was because they did not join with Tecumseh. For this they received "reservations" which were then taken from them and they were sent to Kansas, and from there to the Cherokee's lands.
I heard that you visited with Jack Blosser when you went to DC with Governor George's son. I fully support his effort's to bring about unity among the surviving Shawnee.
My view, based on direct observation, is that people of mixed ancestry provide the base on which the cons first set up their operations.
As time progresses, every nation will face this problem. That is, they will face this problem unless they set up ancestry organizations first so that these conmen will not be able to operate.
The comment "May your greaat grandchildren cause you problems" was a JOKE, my way of referring to this. It was not meant as a curse, and I very much hope that they does not happen.
Since I have had people imitate me on the internet, I am very interested in learning exactly where "I" said the Andaste had red hair, or that they transported copper to Africa.
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For the continuing Grondine tangent http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4651.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4651.0)
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Helllol -
keely, keep on going to "Bent" Twigg.
His daughter Bertha was my grandmother,
not great grandmother.
I suppose I will be hearing from you about my African American ancestry next, since it seems to me there is little way he could have passed as "white" on the census forms.
The situation then was such:
if you could pass as white on census forms, you did it.
Ben, the reason why the Loyal Shawnee received that name from the colonists was because they did not join with Tecumseh. For this they received "reservations" which were then taken from them and they were sent to Kansas, and from there to the Cherokee's lands. Only the Lewistown shawnees sides with the "colonists". The HogCreek/Wapakoneta tried to stay neutral and play both sides.
Re: Loyal Shawnee name - Wrong again. That name didnt come until after the Civil War. Also, arent you the one that wrote that the mounds were built by the Nephilim? You perhaps should write for tabloids. Peer review sir, peer review. Perhaps thats why your historical assertions are absent from JSTOR and Wiley.
I heard that you visited with Jack Blosser when you went to DC with Governor George's son. I fully support his effort's to bring about unity among the surviving Shawnee.
My view, based on direct observation, is that people of mixed ancestry provide the base on which the cons first set up their operations.
As time progresses, every nation will face this problem. That is, they will face this problem unless they set up ancestry organizations first so that these conmen will not be able to operate.
The comment "May your greaat grandchildren cause you problems" was a JOKE, my way of referring to this. It was not meant as a curse, and I very much hope that they does not happen.
Since I have had people imitate me on the internet, I am very interested in learning exactly where "I" said the Andaste had red hair, or that they transported copper to Africa.
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Who in the hell would imitate a fake on the internet? Isn't that a paradox?