NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: JustAnotherHuman on October 29, 2014, 01:40:42 am
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Hi there,
I have been reading quite a bit around here and I find many of the regular posters around here extremely insightful so I thought I would join and discuss my history briefly and seek a bit of advice. I am a white male that comes from a suburban world. I did not grow up with nearly any exposure to native culture. When I reached adult years it became apparent to me that I was deliberately educated in a manner that left me relatively clueless about living a sustainable or ecologically responsible life, and I decided I would head off to educate myself in that way. Along the path I ran into native ceremonial ways (I was not seeking them, in fact, I barely new anything of them) and I was invited to come around on occasion. Over the first little while, I was extremely naive, but I was quiet and paid attention and I think as a result the people I was around took a liking towards me. It was made clear that there were certain things within there culture that were meant to be shared with everyone and other things that were not, and it never offended me that these things were none of my business. I had some exposure to the New Age world, but my previous exposure to what I still to this day perceive as genuine ways allowed me to see right through that, and I was never really derailed by any of it. Over time, spending time with these people, it all became very real to me, teaching me things about how a community can take care of one another in a way that I had no exposure to in my childhood. I never created an identity around any of this or spoke much of it to the outer world, it was just a way I could take care of myself, my loved ones, and my relationship to creation. I was often invited back for certain things and would look forward to attending. Occasionally there were things happening that I would hear about that I was not welcomed for and that was okay too.
I only bring all of this background up to express a feeling that I often have and the perdicament that it creates for me. Many times attending these ceremonies there are people present that have a very difficult time with my being there, and I am no longer naive enough not to see this. I often feel really guilty about making somebody feel like that, somebody who should not have to feel that way. Many times I have brought this up to elders who have been very inclusive to me, and they often tell me that I shouldn't feel bad about it, and that it is a good thing for the people to go through. On the one hand, I have seen this come true, as some of the people who had a hard time with me to begin with, will open up and become my friend over time. The truth is though that I don't want to make people feel this way, and I have a very difficult time continually being present if that is how it is received by others. I feel like I do understand WHY it feels that way, and I certainly am not one to claim that they shouldn't have that issue. I am only saying that I witness the issue, and wish I was not creating it. I in no way, shape, or form, think I am NDN or mean to act NDN or try to take on any identity as NDN, nothing like that, I am just another white guy who stumbled into this. I am not trying to take anything from them. My primary confusion comes from the fact that it is often the elders, or even ceremonial leaders that encourage me to take part, while many of the others (particularly the younger crowd) has a harder time. I have been present when other New Age types have come through and behaved in a quite offensive manner, and I have been aware of the impact that they have had on the NDN's that were present. When I see this it makes me even feel worse about it all, and want to distance myself further. Anyway, I guess I am curious as to the perspective of many of the regulars around here...what do you think about all this? Is there a healthy way for white people to participate in certain ceremonial ways (with the understanding that there are other things that they are not welcomed to)?
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Welcome Just and thank you for being so honest. What was the name of the Tribe that befriended you?
Diana
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To be fair, the stuff I am welcomed to is intertribal, so there are various people present with different tribal backgrounds. I also wouldn't say that a tribe befriended me, because its really just a small group of people in a small local community. I do not live in the region where the majority of these Ndn people are from, many of them have moved in pursuit of a career or other various reasons and have created a new community around these ways where they are living now. Sometimes people will visit them from back home, and even sometimes the visiting friends are from different tribes.
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Who are your relatives? Who will speak for you?
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Thank you for your honesty,
It is hard when outsider come and yes we are very suspicious
of non-natives people who come the ceremony. We watch and wait
to see if you are a human being or if you are a damaged person.
What i mean is many come to fix themselves they do not care about our
people but want to take from us. Others come who just want to become our
friends. We have had people come who respect our belief and treat us with honor.
To me if you are coming to ceremony you are coming because you are family.
a non native in ceremony with us is hard to understand at times because we are
there to learn each time we go to ceremony because it is a lifetime of learning.
What you will see on this site is the many who use our people ways for their own purpose
to make money.Claiming to come from some tribe or adopted by some tribe or see spirit of some tribe.
all we can do is shake our head so we watch everyone who comes
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Thank you Earth for your reply. That is all understandable to me.
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Kathryn,
Are you asking me for somebody to vouch for my authenticity here in this forum? I would prefer to remain anonymous, and not bring anybody else into this. I do not intend to create any difficulty for the people who have been welcoming me around and I don't intend to cause any unnecessary attention to go in that direction. I understand your skepticism with all that comes through here, so if that does not work for you I am happy to go elsewhere, I simply was curious as to the perspective of those around here on the matter.
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My point is that it's hard to answer your question without knowing you, or knowing those who know you. Elders are known in their communities, but we don't know if the people who invited you to ceremony are actually Elders, because we don't know if you know how to tell who is and isn't an Elder. You have the right to be anonymous here, but as soon as you start saying Elders gave you permission to do something, it moves to another level.
What Earth said, about bringing family along. I would say that if you're not family, you don't belong there. Is what you're getting out of it worth making the people these ways are intended for uncomfortable?
If the people you are doing things with are real Elders, someone here will know them. You say it's "intertribal." Do you mean pan-NDN or Interfaith prayer gatherings? "Intertribal" usually only applies to social things. Do you know whether what you're participating in is sacred ceremony or social?
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Ah okay, I appreciate the clarification. Let me clarify a few things on my end. When I used the term elder I meant quite literally the older and seemingly more respected people of the given group of people. I don't mean somebody that has achieved any particular status or credentials. Secondly, I have not been given permission to do anything, simply invited. "Hey we will be _____ on Saturday, you should come by, it'll be good for you." I am not family and due to having little or no exposure to any of this, by the time I gained awareness of all this I had already been around quite a bit. I apologize for misusing the term intertribal, what I was referring to are ceremonial ways (not social) that have people in attendance from various nations. They often acknowledge how they each might do certain things differently, but all make an effort to get behind the leader of the ceremony in his way. I hope that helps clarify the particulars of my situation, if there is anything else that can help clarify please let me know...
So the question is: Is there a healthy way for white people to participate in certain ceremonial ways (under the condition that they understand that does not mean they are welcomed to everything)? Is it possible to participate in a way that as a way of life within that community, or is any participating taking only?
Because for me confusion arises out of encouragement from some Ndn's and apparent discouragement from others. You asked is what I get worth it in order to make these people feel uncomfortable. I have come here to express the difficult time I am having around this issue. I am "getting" something as you put it, but that is not why I am there, it is a much more communal, where we will take care of each other, and do things on behalf of one another.
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I guess I'll add something else. Elders from a number of Nations have voiced concerns that the ceremonies, when shared with outsiders, will become diluted and lose their power, and then not be there for the young people and those who are yet to be born.
One of the reasons we have frauds out there who have ceremonial fragments is because old people were kind to them. They could not conceive that these polite young white people would behave so outside the social protocols expected of young people in Native communities. They did not forsee that the white people's way of thinking would be so alien; they did not forsee that they would be betrayed. Some of those Elders died before they had a chance to make it public that they had made a mistake, that they had been too trusting and the community was suffering for it. Others changed their minds and spoke out, but those white kids they'd been kind to don't share those statements, only the earlier ones that have now been rescinded.
I think that if some young Natives in ceremony are uncomfortable with you, the more spiritual thing to do is support work. Work the gate and keep nuagers from attending. Work in the kitchen to keep everyone fed. Go on the grocery run. Help with child care if the women will let you. There are many ways to support and gain benefit from ceremony without intruding in ways that will make Natives uncomfortable. The consensus statements that have barred non-Natives from participation do not bar non-Natives from doing support work.
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Thanks Kathryn, good advice.
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Hi Just, I 've been reading this thread and I'd like to ask you about this group you're involved in. Where are you meeting at...as what city or area? And how do you know these people are actual Indians? The reason I'm asking, you stated you grew up in the suburbs and are very naïve and barely new anything of Native culture. Which by the way is the norm for 99.99% of all white people. So, how do you know they're Native? Do they look Native? Are they from area's that have Native populations. Have they shown you any (legitimate) enrollment cards?
Just wondering,
Diana
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Hi Diana,
Fair questions. This is not a group, I would not say. This is just an extended community of people that gather when ceremonies are happening. They come from a wide area and gather for occasions. There are often different faces present, but certainly a common core of individuals that are there fairly regularly. Almost all of this occurs in the backwoods, far from any urban area, and quite off the track from any suburban area. I only stumbled into this through getting away from suburbia to learn about living with the land, farming practices, etc. I am (or at least was) naive about Native culture, but I will tell you that I am 100% certain that these are Ndn people. For one, they communicate with each other in their languages, and when various nations are present they will compare and contrast similarities in differences in their languages and how they translate. The majority are originally from reservations and have since moved to the extended area where I have come into contact with them. The local Ndn population has become friendly with many of these folks and it is not uncommon for 3 or more nations to be present at any given function. I have not IDed anybody, and while I understand your general tendency toward confirming all of these things, I can assure you with 100% certainty that these are Ndn people.
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Hi JAH,
Do the people who are conducting ceremony have permission to do so from the Peoples who's land they are on? Are structures erected that the ancestors and spirits of that particular area might find offensive? Does the person/people who are conducting ceremony have permission to do so and permission to invite outsiders? What do you give back to these folks who have invited you? Why do you feel it is necessary to participate in ceremony? Could you perhaps prepare food or something to that extent while ceremony is being conducted? That way you will still be present for those who invited you but you will be less offensive to the people who are uncomfortable with you.
If these people are as traditional as you say and are in fact members of a community they would understand why we are asking who they are and where they are from. It's very basic protocol and it concerns me that they have not explained this to you.
Sky
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While some Natives move to cities like the one where you live for employment, there are others who have been banished from their communities for criminal activities, and who do not have permission from their communities to be leading ceremony. How do you know which sort of folks you know? What tribes people are from is not secret. If they are leading ceremonies away from their communities, especially ones that welcome white non-relatives and even nuagers, their relatives need to know this.
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JAH, you wouldn't happen to be talking about Clifford would you?
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Hi Sky,
Again, all reasonable questions. These people do have permission from the people whose land they are on. I have witnessed very particular protocol (not that I claim to understand it all) in regards to the structures erected that deal with the ancestors and spirits of the area. It is my belief that the people who are conducting ceremonies do have permission to run ceremonies. I perceive this to be so through the respect they receive from other Ndn people who come from the same place as them, and know their families well, as well as the apparent sincerity and lack of anything I would consider a red flag about how they operate. I can not attest to them having permission to invite outsiders, although I have heard from one or two ceremonial leaders that they were given specific instructions from their elders that this particular ceremony, when being used in this particular fashion, is not to turn people away, but to be opened. I will often make a monetary donation as well as prepare food in advance that I bring to the gatherings, but neither of these things are required or expected. I am very open to the idea of supporting the ceremony in other ways without attending (I appreciate this advice), although I do know that some of the people who have seen me attend before will find this a bit strange and encourage me to join.
While I am sure you are right that they would completely understand why you are asking who they were and where they were from, you must also understand why they would not necessarily want their names, who they are, and what they are doing posted on a public forum. They have absolutely explained all of that to me, but if being a member of this forum means that I have to uncover personal information (or really any information) about these people than I do not feel that this is my right to share, and I will refrain from participating here. I understand all of your concerns completely, and I hope on some level you can understand my reservations about sharing information about people or ceremony that is not mine to share.
I simply posted here to hear different perspectives on the previously mentioned questions, because I value the input that I have seen on these message boards, and after much deilberation decided that I would give it a go, and create a post.
I hope I have addressed your questions and concerns.
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Sky, I have never come across anybody named Clifford...
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Kathryn,
You bring up other reasonable concerns. In my experience nearly everyone that I have met that is leading ceremonies still lives in their tribal community, and only comes to visit to lead ceremony for periods of time. Many of the Ndn participants live in the extended area where these ceremonies are taking place, while the leaders of the ceremonies will travel. The local Ndn population know these men from back home.
I will be honest that I am beginning to regret posting on this board as it feels like I will either disclose more information than I feel comfortable disclosing or I will be assumed to be concealing something. This was never my intention and I apologize if I created any problems here. Perhaps somebody can point me towards a resource where my initial question can be answered. I am grateful for the insight that has been offered.
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There's something wrong if you won't even say what Nation's ceremonies these are, and which ceremonies. If they are doing ceremonies that you say everyone is welcome to, why is this secret?
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Okay, here is my perspective. If these people do not want their names or what they are doing out there then they could very well have something to hide. Having people from their community come visit doesn't mean anything, how do you know that the visitors are respected in their community?
With regard to the structure, how do you know that the protocols you have witnessed are acceptable to the ancestors and spirits of the area?
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Is there a healthy way for white people to participate in certain ceremonial ways (with the understanding that there are other things that they are not welcomed to)?
I hope this is the initial question you were referring to. It's situational and dependent on the participants as well as on your ego. If there are ndn people who are attending these ceremonies and they are made to feel uncomfortable by your presence logic dictates that they should feel comfortable when participating in something that is theirs. If they are living away from community and this is the only time they have to be with community then they need it more than you do. Again, the most respectful thing in my opinion would be to show up and take a supportive role such as cooking, watching children, that kind of thing. It would not only be appreciated but it may help those who are having a difficult time with your presence understand that you just want to hang out with your friends and not take away from their spiritual time.
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Sky,
Thank you for your reply and your answer to my initial question. It is not the decision of these people that I do not share their names, their nation, or their ceremonies that is my decision and I do not feel comfortable putting that here on a public forum. They have no idea that I have put this here and I slightly regret doing so to be completely honest. Everything that you have said makes sense to me, and it will all be considered in how I go forward. I appreciate your thoughtful reply.
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Kathryn,
While I understand why someone on your end would perceive it that way, I hope you can understand why someone on my end might feel like it is not their place to discuss what people are doing what and where on a public forum, especially given my honest expression of the fact that I already feel like I may be overstepping boundaries. They are ceremonies that are practiced by many nations, and I would like to clarify that I do not say anything about anybody being welcome to these ceremonies, I was relaying what was told to me. I make no claims about these ceremonies myself. I appreciate the advice that you have given me earlier in the thread. It makes complete sense to me why everybody has responded the way they have with the amount of Nuage frauds flying around I understand that, and there is no way for me to confirm that that is not what I am a part of without revealing more information than I feel comfortable revealing, so I think we may have to accept that this ends here. I hope that my coming here hasn't caused any problems around here, my intention was only to gain insight from the people around here whose opinion I appreciate, and it seems that it created a bit more of a stir than I intended to. I apologize if that is the case.
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No stir. We hear this stuff every day.
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Okay good. All the best to you and your website...