NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: Manicman on April 13, 2013, 04:41:00 pm
-
My name is Noah and I am currently undergoing a prolonged, and pretty difficult kundalini awakening. I am also an admirer of Native American spiritual traditions, and have experienced a bit of it first hand in my awakening. Particularly some things that seem to have to do with the Lenni Lenape. I am European Jewish by blood, but I look like a wasp in person. How can I approach this subject with the respect it deserves, as a white person? Is it at all acceptable for me to be exploring this, given that I am white? I have legitimately had some of these spiritual forces show up in my awakening.
-
I have also had experiences with one plastic shaman, which is part of what led me here.
-
My name is Noah and I am currently undergoing a prolonged, and pretty difficult kundalini awakening. I am also an admirer of Native American spiritual traditions, and have experienced a bit of it first hand in my awakening. Particularly some things that seem to have to do with the Lenni Lenape. I am European Jewish by blood, but I look like a wasp in person. How can I approach this subject with the respect it deserves, as a white person? Is it at all acceptable for me to be exploring this, given that I am white? I have legitimately had some of these spiritual forces show up in my awakening.
Noah, I have some ideas on this. I myself am white, an outsider, and belong to the "I don't know and that is okay" category of faith.
If you want to work in the kundalini yoga tradition, I suggest staying with that. Steering clear of new age and cult versions. I'd suggest learning Sanskrit, finding good teachers who are in a healthy community of practitioners.
If by "difficult kundalini awakening" you mean experiences of difficulty and challenges with mental health stability - I suggest you work on stabilizing your mental health. Make sure you know what is needed to keep yourself stable and practice that.
I know there is a trend to call mental health challenges "kundalini awakenings" but I wonder if that is at all helpful, I think ultimately it can confuse matters and even worsen them. I'm a fan of basic stability, first and foremost.
-
My name is Noah and I am currently undergoing a prolonged, and pretty difficult kundalini awakening. I am also an admirer of Native American spiritual traditions, and have experienced a bit of it first hand in my awakening. Particularly some things that seem to have to do with the Lenni Lenape. I am European Jewish by blood, but I look like a wasp in person. How can I approach this subject with the respect it deserves, as a white person? Is it at all acceptable for me to be exploring this, given that I am white? I have legitimately had some of these spiritual forces show up in my awakening.
Noah, I have some ideas on this. I myself am white, an outsider, and belong to the "I don't know and that is okay" category of faith.
If you want to work in the kundalini yoga tradition, I suggest staying with that. Steering clear of new age and cult versions. I'd suggest learning Sanskrit, finding good teachers who are in a healthy community of practitioners.
If by "difficult kundalini awakening" you mean experiences of difficulty and challenges with mental health stability - I suggest you work on stabilizing your mental health. Make sure you know what is needed to keep yourself stable and practice that.
I know there is a trend to call mental health challenges "kundalini awakenings" but I wonder if that is at all helpful, I think ultimately it can confuse matters and even worsen them. I'm a fan of basic stability, first and foremost.
Great advice, Epiphany. Stability is key.
Manicman, you reported in late 2012 and early 2013 about your experiences with Luzia Krull, which was a disaster for you. I am sorry that you are experiencing what you feel is a "kundalini awakening" because it sounds terribly painful. Personally, I don't believe that life should be painful, but a total joy. If your emotions are up and down so that you feel you are not stable, perhaps you have bipolar disease. I am not a psychiatrist, but that is something you may want to look into.
You also say that you have had spiritual forces which you identify as Lenni Lenape show up "first hand in your awakening". Do you mean you are having visions or glimpses of past lives? Your introduction seems to combine lots of different things, if I am reading it right: Hindu spirituality (kundalini awakening), reincarnation and visions.
As Epiphany said, stability is key. Stick to one thing and explore it to the best of your ability.
-
You can't learn NDN traditions on the Internet, and people who know their stuff will not trust an outsider. If the spirits had meant you to be part of an NDN spiritual way, you would have been born and/or raised NDN. It can be hard for non-Natives to understand this, but it's necessary to understand that there are time-tested reasons for these boundaries and standards.
Posting publicly about your spiritual confusion and vulnerabilities is not a good thing to do. I strongly advise you to only confide in people you trust when it comes to these matters. You may find that some pretendians or exploiters may contact you, looking to boost their egos, or line their wallets, or simply cause you more misery. Posting on NAFPS is not an exception to this. This is a public board, and along with all the principled, excellent people who participate here, there are also predators who read this board.
If you're having what you believe to be contact with spirits you believe to be Lenape... since you aren't an in-person, full member of that culture you simply don't have the context to know that that is what your experiences are, or even if your experiences are real contacts with spirits and not simply your imagination. I don't say this to be mean; it's just a fact of life when learning to handle spiritual work.
If you read the main page of this site - newagefraud.org - you'll see, over and over, that NDN spiritual ways are communal - they are based in family, extended family, and the tightly-knit communities that are built on these relationships. Even Native people who have a right to their traditional ways do not do ceremonial work in isolation. All spiritual work that involves visions carries the danger of getting caught up in illusion, and functional communities know this. So often outsiders think they can take bits and pieces, and skip all the safety protocols; people wind up crazy this way.
I second what the others have said. Stay away from newagers. Find some reputable kundalini yoga teachers - South Asian ones, if they'll have you, not white newagers. And keep in one tradition. Mixing traditions can drive even stable people crazy. So if you are experiencing instability and emotional difficulty that necessity to stay focused and simple is profoundly important.
I note you have "manic" in your screen name. Manic, or even hypomanic, states can make one over-confident. This can be very dangerous in spiritual work, even if there are not associated psychotic episodes. Some newagers will try to tell people with bipolar or related conditions that their condition is a spiritual gift. Some will even encourage folks to go off their meds. Don't listen to them. I've dealt with many, many people over the years who have mental illness but want to be ceremonial people. The two don't mix. I understand the need to make oneself feel better with these beliefs, but I think it's a cruel thing to do to people. I've seen so many amateur, "spiritual" therapists cause people a lot of misery this way. Get your moods under control. Pray. Take it slow.
-
Ok I appreciate all the advise. The name Manicman comes from my brother having bad bipolar and me thinking alliteration is clever. I was a remarkably sane, stable kid growing up, until I blew open my kundalini in a rather stupid way, and yeah I am trying to grope towards some stability right now. And yes, it is kundalini, not a mental health issue. I had electrical spasms in my spine, as well as changes in my dream life, all kinds of stuff.
As for the cultural stuff, I don't know and am not trying to prod anywhere I am not welcome. However I will say that I grew up in Northern New Jersey and felt a spiritual connection to the land there. I also got pretty unhappy when my family moved, and I plan to move back as soon as I can.
I will also say that the word kundalini is Hindu, but the force is universal and does show up in a wide variety of different traditions.
I'm on a bumpy ride, but I think a fundamentally good one, though I appreciate the concern.
-
Ok I appreciate all the advise. The name Manicman comes from my brother having bad bipolar and me thinking alliteration is clever. I was a remarkably sane, stable kid growing up, until I blew open my kundalini in a rather stupid way, and yeah I am trying to grope towards some stability right now. And yes, it is kundalini, not a mental health issue. I had electrical spasms in my spine, as well as changes in my dream life, all kinds of stuff.
As for the cultural stuff, I don't know and am not trying to prod anywhere I am not welcome. However I will say that I grew up in Northern New Jersey and felt a spiritual connection to the land there. I also got pretty unhappy when my family moved, and I plan to move back as soon as I can.
I will also say that the word kundalini is Hindu, but the force is universal and does show up in a wide variety of different traditions.
I'm on a bumpy ride, but I think a fundamentally good one, though I appreciate the concern.
If I were in your shoes, I'd print out a copy of what Kathyrn posted. Very specific, very helpful information there.
it might be easy to gloss over what she is written, to think we already know all that, but I hope you go back and read it slowly, think about it, and keep it in mind.
I understand you are saying that you have symptoms that match your definition of kundalini. If I were in your shoes, hopefully I'd go in for a general physical check up, to make sure some of the symptoms/experiences don't have physical causes. Anyone you ever go to for help with your experiences should always make sure you've had a physical check up.
If I were in your shoes and wanted to believe that my experiences had to do with kundalini - I would find a reputable kundalini practioner, a traditional one who comes from and is in their own community. I would only do that.
If I didn't want to do that, I would do something else. Only one tradition, no new age, no mish mash of cultures and practices. If I did that I would no longer define my experiences as kundalini.
I will also say that the word kundalini is Hindu, but the force is universal and does show up in a wide variety of different traditions.
Noah, this part isn't true. I know the new age says it is true, but new age is nuage and just plain wrong.
I am trying to grope towards some stability right now.
Focus on this. Stability. Do the basic building blocks to regain stability in your life.
-
Ok I will stay away from the Indian stuff having reread what Kathlyn said, but I do think I am getting k awakened as opposed to a mundane sort of illness.
-
Ok I will stay away from the Indian stuff having reread what Kathlyn said, but I do think I am getting k awakened as opposed to a mundane sort of illness.
:) Good deal.
Now, you know that you could be going through both, right? You could be going through experiences that a traditional kundalini yoga teacher can validate and teach you about, while also going through physical and mental challenges that also need attention?
Stability first. Basics first. Get a good check up, make sure something like diabetes, high blood pressure or anything else isn't causing some symptoms. Screen those things out first.
If you honestly don't feel mentally stable, get help with that. Basic, good mental health help.
If someone who was Catholic told me that they were going through uncomfortable experiences that were very much like what saints and other devouted had described, I would advise the same thing. To get a good physical check up, then tend to basic mental stability, along with taking part in a healthy parish community life.
-
I will also say that the word kundalini is Hindu, but the force is universal and does show up in a wide variety of different traditions.
As soon as people claim anything is "universal" it usually means there is a white, appropriative, salad-bar-spirituality mode of thought somewhere in the person's beliefs. That is how you will get hurt.
Few things are universal. As Sherman Alexie put it, "'Universal' means 'white people get it.' I don't want to be universal."
Most earth-honoring cultures hold fire sacred; most hold the earth sacred and see the forces of nature as having significance. Everything beyond that is variable.
Recently I saw a well-meaning Irish-American try to express solidarity with NDN and Irish environmental activists by translating a fragment of an NDN prophecy that uses snake symbology into Gaeilge, and adding in a quote from an Irish folk song that mentions 'silver' or money. But what the snake means to that particular Native culture, in that particular story, is totally different from what it means in Gaelic cultures (and Ireland has no snakes). Then by not understanding what the Irish folk song is about (because he took it out of cultural context, because he's not part of the culture), he unintentionally posted an insult to our Creator Spirit and equated her with men of the ruling class in America, when actually she's about the rightful sovereignty of the Gaelic nations and the power of the sacred land. Ouch. Fail on all cultural fronts, and offensive to all the spirits. He did himself, and his attempted alliances, no favours with that.
Epiphany is right: you could have multiple things going on, and those who are confident spiritually are not afraid to rule out physical or psychiatric causes. It's only by ruling those things out that we can truly understand what we are going through.
Electrical shocks up the spine can also indicate pinched nerves, multiple sclerosis and/or spinal cord damage.
I wish you well, but you need to deprogram yourself from the newage point of view. I think you need to get humble and listen to the real tradition-bearers of the traditions you are interested in. Newagers like to force what they think is "kundalini awakening" and really mess themselves up. Traditional yogic cultures see it differently. Talk to them, or you're just in maya.
-
I wouldn't say I have been programmed by the New Age stuff in the first place. Even when I was having the unpleasant experience with my first teacher, it was more like, "This woman is full of crap but I need the help," than me truly believing in what she is saying.
The reason that I subscribed to the belief that Kundalini is universal is that it well... happened to me without any former spiritual practice on my part. That said I am open to other points of view, and if any one is willing to suggest a teacher for me I would be very happy to look into it.
-
Well, have you been programmed by white America? Or even America in general. It's programmed that we need to have teachers.
And, we should even pay them for their time and service.
I don't believe any genuine teacher is out there looking for students, and none would charge a penny for what they don't know.
How do you guard against being fooled by a charismatic charlatan? What criteria do you apply to your search for an authentic teacher?
What does "teacher" mean to you? What does it mean?
If this kundalini happened spontaneously to you, then perhaps the teacher is within your own self.. perhaps instead of spending
time and energy looking outwards for someone to tell you this that or the other, perhaps just spend your time and energy
to keep calm, grounded, and looking inward.. meditate and don't worry about a teacher.
I just am not big on this whole teacher thing, because I know what the American mindset thinks in regards to "teacher".
Spirituality is not academic and it can't be "taught" by a teacher. Whatever the members of this or that culture learn,
as their cultural spirituality, they learn it as their way of life, not as a subject, not as something to learn. It just is, from
the moment they are born. Sure, they learn the steps and meanings and stories and whatever else there is to learn
about their culture and ceremony and beliefs, but it's not a teacher/student.. it's just growing up in that culture. NOT saying
different cultures don't have things they teach to their members.. or to those that are taking a different role in their
community, I'm just saying that it ISN'T like the American mindset of "teacher", "student", and "learning" ..
This doesn't mean I don't believe there are things we learn spiritually. But those things, and whatever force or spirit
there is, that teaches or shows, will do so. Trust that if or when you get your self stable and can command your own
mind, emotion and body that whatever is a next step will be there. IF there is a next step. There may not be. But who
cares? Life is now. Focus where you are now. Maybe there's no reason to have a 'teacher'. Maybe this whole idea of
finding a teacher is merely programmed idea, or a distraction so you are not doing your own work on your own person.
And.. in the general frame of alternative spirituality in America, there's this "idea" that somehow, because we had a
visual imagery experience that we should then go do this or that.. or seek out some culture or teacher or some such.
If you are stable and clear of mind and emotion then you know to not just take visual imagery at face value. Those
visions could be any number of things. No, you don't think in your mind or feel in your heart that it means, or is, this or
that.. you see it, and you continue on in your own life and if it means something, that will come clear in some time..
maybe 15 years later .. or maybe never. It doesn't matter.
Too many people, again, usually white Americans have some vision and think they have to go seek that, and find or live it.. wtf.
For all you know it was nothing but something from your memory when you were 1 month old. And if you were supposed
to live your life from some vision, then you would have been born into a place where that is.
People want too much to think they know.. or that someone else knows and can teach them. No one knows. No. One.
My advice to people who have visions, is to just keep living their own lives. Live to be the best person you can and
don't worry about what imagery floats into your mind. Those things will be whatever they are, all you can do is continue
in a good way for good life for all.
-
I think when your first sentence leads with kundalini insights, it's a sign that you're not understanding Native spirituality after all, like you think you do. Kundalini, chakras, vibrations--none of that stuff is Native. It sounds foreign, alien, to Native people. It's like saying, "I love the Catholic religion! In fact, I've already been through THREE Mormon temple ceremonies!"
-
i have agreed with everyone here as a native woman
our ways are always about family
-
Actually what I really want more than a teacher is a confidant. I'm a highly unique person, and I know a handful of others on very different paths, but I haven't met or talked to anyone who shares much experience with my journey. I really just want someone I can talk to. Problem is the subject matter is pretty sensitive on both a personal and a cultural level.
-
I guess I had an idealized notion that a spiritual teacher would be the person I could talk to about my life, but having read what you said, it gave me clarity. I am really looking for a confidant more than a teacher. As for "teachings" my guides are doing me just fine. The problem is that the spirits aren't very... human. I am really just looking for some human warmth as I attempt to come to terms with a really large amount of unhappiness in my life up to this point.
-
Actually what I really want more than a teacher is a confidant. I'm a highly unique person, and I know a handful of others on very different paths, but I haven't met or talked to anyone who shares much experience with my journey. I really just want someone I can talk to. Problem is the subject matter is pretty sensitive on both a personal and a cultural level.
I've been where you are. First, although we are all unique individuals, none of us is really that much different than anyone else.
We are all just plain and simple common average people living life. It's nice to think you are highly unique, but that's a cloud that
will one day burst. Better to know you are no different than anyone else.
Personally, I find the people who go off on that new age trip, are the ones who think their self to be somehow more unique than
the average person, when in fact, they are not. It's simply an ego trip to stand in front of others and say so.
One thing and probably the only thing I can tell anyone is that first, you are not anything more or less special than anyone else.
And secondly, whatever you think you know is only what you think you know.. and in reality, you really don't know.
And, for the most part, what we personally experience can never be truly shared.
I guess I had an idealized notion that a spiritual teacher would be the person I could talk to about my life, but having read what you said, it gave me clarity. I am really looking for a confidant more than a teacher. As for "teachings" my guides are doing me just fine. The problem is that the spirits aren't very... human. I am really just looking for some human warmth as I attempt to come to terms with a really large amount of unhappiness in my life up to this point.
It's *always* nice to have friends. We are social animals, and the need for like companionship is always there. My life has always
been very alone, and recently, very lonely. And with a great deal of unhappiness to boot. The only thing I can say is from my
experience, look to the things in life that do make you happy and let go of the rest. If that means forgiving, then forgive, if it means
closing some doors on some people and areas of your life, then close those doors and move on.
You may be well advised to seek counseling as well, so that you have someone you can release all these things in a safe and
impartial way.. without feelings of being judged, but with someone who will actually care.
-
Noah, please read the recent posts in the Kiesha Crowther thread. The idea that a very small number of people are uber-unique special visionary snowflakes, and that there are secret teachers waiting to find these rare few people who believe they are having visions, is a really destructive and dangerous meme. And it has zero to do with real, functional, traditional spiritual systems. It is a belief that is beloved and nurtured by newage isolationist values, however.
Not everyone has visions. But not everyone who thinks they are having visions is right. Without in-person, grounded community to help someone sort the wheat from the chaff, it's at best prone to serious misinterpretation and at worst it's a self-aggrandizing and escapist fantasy, no better than tripping on drugs. If visions don't serve the community, they are worthless.
There are many people on this forum who are seriously involved in the ceremonial lives of their communities. But for the most part, people don't talk about it in front of strangers. In some cases there are prohibitions about discussing things publicly, in other cases it's just seen as arrogant and inappropriate to bring that stuff out for public viewing. This can lead outsiders to think they must be the only person having spiritual experiences. But the truth is, stable ceremonial people tend to draw back from those who show signs of arrogance and Speshul Snowflake Syndrome.
There's a reason humility is at the top of the list in all traditional ways. The newage is the opposite - arrogant, isolated people buy more workshops and bling.
Again, I feel like I have to tell you that I'm not trying to be mean here. But there are some implications in what you are writing that are actually rather insulting. I know you have no idea who all is reading your posts. And you don't understand the cultures of most of the people here or how we might react. But that is kind of the point - when you go on in public like this, all sorts of people are listening and watching. You have some very experienced people in this thread giving you advice, and I strongly suggest you take it to heart.
-
I guess I had an idealized notion that a spiritual teacher would be the person I could talk to about my life, but having read what you said, it gave me clarity. I am really looking for a confidant more than a teacher. As for "teachings" my guides are doing me just fine. The problem is that the spirits aren't very... human. I am really just looking for some human warmth as I attempt to come to terms with a really large amount of unhappiness in my life up to this point.
Find a therapist you can work with. If you don't like the first, try another. You can find exactly what you want: a compassionate, knowledgeable, trained confidante.
Find someone basic, stable, credentialed, maybe even ideally someone at a clinic who has coworkers and has good accountability to others, checks and balances.
Problem is the subject matter is pretty sensitive on both a personal and a cultural level.
You may feel that this is a problem, but it is not, for a good therapist. Go to a therapist. Everything you are talking about here needs to actually be between you and a therapist.
-
I'm going to put my 2 cents worth in, for what it's worth.
*First of, if bipolar runs in your family, your risk of having it as well increases. Furthermore, bipolar also has physical symptoms. Just thought I'd mention that.
*There's nothing new about New Age. Lots of stuff people fork out money for these days has been around for decades, often even centuries. Biggest problem is that modern man thinks that all knowledge should be common knowledge. This in effect results in there being scores of Jack of All Trades, Master of None running around who have a little knowledge about many subjects. The Holy Man or Wise Woman of old, however, did not spend a lifetime of learning for nothing. You just simply cannot obtain a similar level of knowledge in a few easy lessons! And if you're not raised in the same culture, it is virtually impossible to ever truly understand and get the correct depth of knowledge.
*John Donne was wrong; modern man is an island. The total unravelment of social communities, particularly in the Western world, has made people lose one of the most important things they can have in life: a social and communal network to fall back on. Nowadays women have to follow breast feeding classes because they don't get taught by mothers and aunts; people have to fork out dough for shrinks and the like because communal confidants are no longer in existence, and younger generations no longer learn from 'show and tell' by their elders. Hence the increasing urge by - specifically and again - people from the Western world to look for cultures that still have the communal sense, in order to retrieve that which has been lost. Sad.
*When the urge to become spiritual grabs you, start digging for your roots. Of course one might have problems if, like me, your family has acted like a virus and you're basically a Heinz 57, but it's virtually impossible to grow if you're not rooted. And that's the biggest problem with New Agers as well: as soon as they become "enlightened" they seem to soar off into the wide blue yonder and lose all contact with earth. It's an extreme form of escapism.
Want to become spiritual? Get your hands in the earth! Don't look up, dig down! Take off your shoes and walk over the earth (pick a sunny & warm day to start though, or you literally might get cold feet *grin* ) and try to feel the rythm through your soles. Because once you get in touch with where you come from, and what you're a part of, the rest will follow. Guaranteed!
LH
-
modern man is an island. The total unravelment of social communities, particularly in the Western world, has made people lose one of the most important things they can have in life: a social and communal network to fall back on. Nowadays women have to follow breast feeding classes because they don't get taught by mothers and aunts; people have to fork out dough for shrinks and the like because communal confidants are no longer in existence, and younger generations no longer learn from 'show and tell' by their elders.
Just noting that, while the disconnection of modern life has affected almost everyone to some degree, what you are saying above is mostly true of white people. And specifically, urban white people. Not everyone grows up like that. Traditional communities still maintain a lot of what urban, unrooted people have lost.
That said, yes, it's a problem for almost all white people and even some of other backgrounds. Isolation and consumerism make people crazy, and arrogant, and deeply lonely. So much so that it can even lead people with those sicknesses to try to destroy the people who try to help them.
it's virtually impossible to grow if you're not rooted.
Good point.
-
I was worried you guys would jump on the "highly unique" part.
As for what Critter said, I am not involved in any new age form of spirituality. I have my own private journey, and have never met someone with similar experiences. So yeah, I do think I am highly unique. I will also openly admit that I have done some stupid self destructive things out of egotism. But I have also found (and this part really bugs me) that people who say, "You need to learn a valuable lesson about humility from me" are not particularly humble people themselves. In fact I think the word humility and the values attached to it can be massaged to serve whatever agenda you want.
When I worked with my last teacher she told me I wasn't surrendering to her because I was too arrogant and all sorts of bad stuff. She turned out to be a full blown narcissist who was seeking to brainwash me. My point is not as long as I can point out other people's shortcomings I shouldn't have to look at my own. That is in itself a pretty narcissistic way to go about life. My point is look at the deep structure. What does this word humility even mean? In my experience it often means, "Fall in line."
After my experience with my last teacher I read an excellent book called the Guru Papers, which really helped me gain clarity on a lot of what had bothered me about spirituality, as well as other stuff. It talked about a number of things which I can't do justice to here, but a lot of it had to do with how lofty spiritual ideals are actually used to manipulate people. This is easy to find in Western monotheism, but I liked that it also took Eastern mysticism to task as well. It talked about how basically in these philosophies unity is seen as more real than diversity, which makes it inevitable to sacrifice diversity to unity. See what I am getting at here?
The book also touches a bit on tribal animistic religions and how members of these culture are more psychologically "whole" than modern Westerners because their underlying belief system doesn't divide the carnal animal nature from the altruistic spiritual nature. However it also comments that in these tribes the method for preserving harmony was to limit individuation, which is not practical in the modern world, given how different and more complex our lifestyles are.
So speaking very generally, I am saying that it is true that individuation has it's dark side: narcissism, self destruction I'm sure you guys can rattle off a dozen more, but I don't think that trying to do away with individuation and saying we are basically all the same is practically viable, or philosophically true.
I am dealing with a very odd situation indeed and I would be very glad to private message with someone experienced in spiritual openings, even if they don't believe me.
-
I would also like to say that there are reasons I feel drawn to Native spirituality that go beyond the kundalini aspect I already mentioned. I would really like to private message with someone who knows these things, if possible.
-
Hi,
:) I'm on my own private journey and have had experiences that I have never spoken of or heard of anyone ever
saying of.. so.. how unique are you .. ?
You missed my point, I believe.
I've been where you are. Believe me, to consider yourself "highly" unique is a cloud waiting to burst.. but.. don't matter,
think what you will. You're on a special private journey (just like we all are) and have had experiences no one else has
had (just like we all have)..
Humility.. can't speak for anyone about this except myself.. well, that's a true statement for *everything* I say.. :)
But, to me, humility is something very "Earth".. to get down to the ground, to feel as the soil, knowing I am not the sky..
For me it is a feeling. Not a word and not a state of mind or even a thought. It's from the heart and soul and lays me
to the ground, as I said.. not the sky.
Also, I did not imply you were involved in the new age thing.. I meant that the new age peeps who do get so involved
are the ones who like to think their self special, and more unique than others.. it's a fault that will fall. I didn't word it
correctly so I do understand why it was interpreted as such.. but I didn't mean you were in with the new age thing.. :)
Be well.
-
Yeah I guess I did miss your point. Sorry.
I will also say that the cloud has already burst. I have already gotten myself into a bunch of embarrassing stupid situations because of my own foolishness.
However I still think my journey is somewhat unique. Because I can't seem to find anyone who has been through the same thing. Again: is there anyone willing to private message with me?
-
What I wish to talk about is related to a lot of what has been said here. Finding my roots. Mental illness. All sorts of stuff.
-
I think you might be confusing individuality with communal spirit. The one does not rule out the other, but unfortunately these days the one seems to exist without the other. Community is something which has been lost specifically in Western society, hence the urge many people have to retrieve it. Even if it's not theirs.
As for reading books which give you important insights: always remember that the content of those books is just one person's personal view of a certain subject. It may strike a chord, or a whole chorus, depending on how it's written, and when you read it. And there will always be books who counter said book, presenting yet another person's view on the same subject.
There has been one important lesson I have learned from my own journey ... at a specific point in time you will learn that the helping hand you are looking for is attached to your own arm. In other words, look within. That's where your answers lie.
LH
-
I have looked within, and have found answers, but even the answers are kind of distressing.
-
Let me first of all emphasize that I am not a doctor, therapist, counselor, or anything like that. However, you might try the following:
* find out how much of the distress might be (or might not be) caused by afflictions like bipolar, etc. I.o.w. get any medical reasons for the distress sorted out.
* look at how much, if any, of the distress is left and try to figure out whether the distress is caused by altered insights and/or personal convictions, or whether your believe structure has been upset; then see to what degree you're OK with these having been altered and are willing to accept it.
What I mean to say is that you need to be able to discern between what's really an 'insight' or 'enlightenment', and what is purely medical. Then see how you fare from there. And as for looking for somebody who might be able to lead you through your experiences, all they do and all they are is basically a sound board that you bounce ideas and thoughts off. In the end, the resposibility for any step you take in life is yours.
But you might already be aware of that, of course.
LH
-
I'm not mentally or physically ill. I have been to see psychiatrists, doctors, and spiritual counselors. My system has been messed up a bit by archetypal forces, but I am dealing gradually.
-
With or without disclaimers, I'm not comfortable with people giving out psychiatric or psychological advice here. I realize we all did some of that earlier, re- basic psychology and getting a checkup with a doctor and therapist, but this is not the place to dispense medical advice.
Manicman, you said you were going to drop the attempt to learn NDN ways, and now you're asking people to message you and advise you about it. I am really uncomfortable with where this seems to be going.
-
I would also like to say that there are reasons I feel drawn to Native spirituality that go beyond the kundalini aspect I already mentioned. I would really like to private message with someone who knows these things, if possible.
Being drawn to these things doesn't give you a right to them. You have some white people in this thread who are engaging with you (and I am one of them) but what is more important is what the NDN people here have said - it's not yours to take.
-
Ok got it.
-
Obviously, you didn't get it at all: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4262.msg36907#msg36907
-
I've read the Raven Kaldera thread as well as the core shamanism thread. I've also read and re-read God is Red by Vine Delorias Jr. I think I have some understanding of the point of view that you are coming at this with.
As for the word itself... The thing in and of itself is beyond words. There are followers of Eastern religions who use the word God to describe the creative principle, even though it has little to do with the monotheistic conception of God.
As for the idea that this simply couldn't happen to white people because it belongs to native people... sorry this thing belongs to the other side. If you believe in the reality of these spiritual forces, then you are forced to accept that it is possible (not likely but possible) for a white person to become a shaman. Yes, the people I have mentioned on this board that I believe to be authentic shamans are not serving tribes in a hut on the edge of the village, and they do sometimes accept money for their work. But the world is simply a vastly different place than it used to be.
As for the idea that I am defending them just because these exploiters "made me feel good": Eliot Cowan refused to continue working with me because I went against the advice he gave me about how to deal with the spiritual opening I was having. And yet here I am backing him, because I can have an honest disagreement with someone without feeling the need to entirely discredit them. The work he did give me showed obvious integrity.
Raven Kaldera gave me highly accurate readings that often turned up difficult and challenging information that I sometimes was reluctant to hear. It wasn't just "You are a great guy who will get rich and marry a hot chick." I mean I do believe all that to be true ;) but the reading pointed out things I was doing wrong in life that I was embarrassed to admit, and yet it fit and made sense in the context of my experiences. And the information he puts out on transgender issues was helpful to me dealing with my gender bending tendencies.
As for Wintersong Tashlin, does it sound like I am defending him? I said I believe him to be an authentic shaman, but I think he is a bad one and I would recommend against anyone going to work with him.
Which brings me to my last point: What do I do if going to some of these people this board labels as fraudulent, they show signs of actual shamanic power? What if they can do things that people who haven't been touched by the other side can't do?
Obviously I can't prove any of this over the internet, but you can in fact go see these people yourselves. I don't say all this to insult your point of view, and I do have sympathy for the history of cultural genocide. But having gone through a Kundalini awakening where I interacted with spiritual forces that don't fit my ethnic background, I was forced to conclude that such a thing is at least possible. Raven Kaldera does some justice to the ambiguous territory that is implicit in this issue in this article:
http://www.northernshamanism.org/general/shamanism/shaman-and-scholar.html
He talks about the debate of "This is traditional and therefore sacred and to change it would be blasphemous" versus "This should evolve to fit a modern context." And he mentions that there is a third party that differs wildly from the former two which says "Well I talked to the other side, and the other side said (xyz)."
-
I've read the Raven Kaldera thread as well as the core shamanism thread. I've also read and re-read God is Red by Vine Delorias Jr. I think I have some understanding of the point of view that you are coming at this with.
You just don't care.
As for the word itself... The thing in and of itself is beyond words. There are followers of Eastern religions who use the word God to describe the creative principle, even though it has little to do with the monotheistic conception of God.
Then it would be no trouble to use a different word, when you know this one offends so many people, wouldn't it? Nope: You wanted to be healed by a "shaman," one who looks badass, not a "possibly unlicensed medical/pyschology practitioner." "Shaman" is awesome-sounding!!
As for the idea that this simply couldn't happen to white people because it belongs to native people... sorry this thing belongs to the other side.
Listen up, Natives! A white person is going to tell you allll about your religions, almost certainly using ideas he got from other white people. Won't that be refreshing and enlightening for you?
If you believe in the reality of these spiritual forces, then you are forced to accept that it is possible (not likely but possible) for a white person to become a shaman.
(Annnnnnd so what if they charge, I steal from India, too, so I can be a shaman, your genocide is sad but my spiritual experiences are much more important, these shamans are real, I know it because of my wisdom and my empty wallet, go pay them for yourself, blah blah blah.)
All very enlightening and new, I'm sure.
-
am i missing something here? does he claim to be native? does he claim to do native ceremonies? does he claim to have learned his hocus pocus bullshit from a native? i looked at his site and he seems like just another new-age whack job to me......but as long as he doesnt say it has anything to do with native ways i personally dont care
-
Oh No another privileged white man tells us who we are,
This is what i see with these fraud s that they take make people believe that
they are something that should be worshipped and defended, something is wrong
with that picture.
"be authentic shamans are not serving tribes in a hut on the edge of the village",
what does that mean? Who lives in a hut at the end of the village?
You dont know nothing about my people. :-[
-
Ok instead of shaman I will say spirit worker/magician/healer. Enjoy the extra syllables.
And I am not "telling Native people about their religions", because this isn't a religion in the first place. It is a calling or a particular relationship with the other side. It may be associated with a tribal religion, but it doesn't have to be. Wintersong Tashlin told me that his tradition is a recently invented one, and works with the dead and the land, rather than primarily with the living. So how can you accuse him of appropriating anything?
Raven Kaldera actually does have some of the blood of the tradition he claims to be doing. Is it still cultural appropriation because he is modern rather than tribal? He also doesn't charge money for the divination he does. If you do give him money he has to donate it because apparently the spiritual forces he works for say so. He can accept gift cards, but if you give him nothing at all, he literally still has to serve you. How does that fit into the stereotypes you were quick to jump to?
And you still haven't responded to the other points I made. You assumed I am backing these guys because they "made me feel good." One of them actively refused to work with me further, one of them I thought was a tool and wanted to punch in the face, and one of them gave me challenging albeit rewarding information that fit what I was dealing with at the time. I'm not buddy buddy with any of them. I put this information out here because they showed signs of well, being able to do stuff.
-
I never said anything about religion :o
I was talking about your description of my people.
I like the being able to do stuff lol
Since Native people dont believe in magic'''''''''
Fraud is anyone who get paid for their services, they usually have website,
They sell themselves, they make claims that are just not true.
spiritual force are everywhere
-
Noah/"manicman" you are being combative and insulting. Once again, you say you've read the threads, but apparently you did not understand them. Or, as Laurel pointed out so clearly, You. Just. Don't. Care.
People have tried to educate you, and you still don't seem to understand the most basic principles of why this site exists and what we do here. I am moving your tangent to your intro thread.
Note: Tangent started here: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4363
You have been warned before. Apologize or you are banned. This is your last warning.
-
Actually, I'm sick of your shit. I think you're just trolling now. If you'd read even the most basic information here, you wouldn't be asking these basic questions and saying these insulting things. You can email your apologies if you want to return. For now, anyway, out of the pool.
-
Overall in the word are people with spiritual power, some are able to heal - or other people believe they can heal.... If someone find in a foreign nation a form of spirituality or healing as he knowes it on his own, it doesn´t mean, it is the same or he can take it over "just for the reason he knowes the same in his life". It can never be the same, but consentaneity or dis - consentaneity could be a basic to understand other people or to find a way to look in other ways. It is something about understanding, respect, etc. but no "transforming", no masquerade. There is nothing you can fetch like from a clay pit and form it as you want.
I got the feeling manicman is missiing his way to walk on his own, he is looking for help and for me it seems he leaves a mark to be vulnerabel for fraudulant practice.