NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: Lime Tree on January 24, 2013, 09:08:47 pm
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Hello,
I am from the Netherlands. I followed workshops with Harley Regan, Sun Bear, and a few others mentioned in the fraud section. Also read some books from anthropologists on American Indians.
I am over 60 years old and had time and reason to read books from C.G. Jung and about mandala's, kundalini, psychotherapy. There was a time that I danced a lot and I am picking that up again.
I found this website in my search to get a better understanding of what it is to carry a pipe.
In my view, one should never stop to grow up - that is: to enlarge one's circle of understanding.
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Hello again,
After reading for several evenings on this board, I suppose that I will be seen as a fraud here and will be happily burnt down to ashes. We will see.
I bought a (marble) pipe from Sun Bear in 1989, after asking him if he felt OK with me carrying a pipe. I had met him at a few weekend courses. I liked him, and saw (and see) him mainly as an idealist. I do not remember what he had told about being a pipe carrier, but from what he told, I concluded: "If that is what carrying a pipe is about, then I have been a pipe carrier since I was 8 or 10 years old".
I find it hard to fathom what mixture of laughter, anger, or whatever this will bring up in members that post here often.
Since 15 years, I am part of a small group group of Dutch people that carry a pipe. Until recently, the people that were (or became) members already carried a pipe. In the last two years, several people approached us that wanted to become part of the group, or had a vision or something that told them they should pick up a pipe.
Two of us feel comfortable with telling new people how it is to carry a pipe. I do not. The only thing I have to say is: "A pipe carrier is someone that takes responsibility for the world that she/he walks around in".
I searched on the internet to find how I could grow roots, so to speak.
Well, I did learn something. It was sobering.
I feel it would be wrong to turn away and find a more pleasing site.
Well, I get stuck. I read on your site - or on The Ally's Toolkit - that it is no use to tell of my good intentions. Or to try to arouse sympathy. That gives a rather small basis for interaction.
I find, that reading on this website gives me a far better understanding of what social circle/ sub culture I am walking around in. For proper understanding: the last 15 years I gathered with these friends four times a year, doing a sweat lodge. Apart from that I lost contact with the New Age scene. I was more involved in the New Age scene from 1973 - 1993. Looking around now, I see it is all about being happy. In 1975 New Agers fought against pesticides and against pollution.
OK. I stop now.
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Oh My Lime tree i am so sorry that you dont know what you are doing
One you dont have the right to carry a pipe second Sun Bear was fraud
and his followers, you dont buy a pipe, just cause you have a pipe does
not make you a pipe carrier,
There is much you dont know about my culture plus from your post you
are a woman which means you would not be a pipe carried to began with
so much misinformation out there about my culture.
A fraud is a fraud
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Hi Lime Tree, and welcome. It's great that you have been reading here. There is lots of good information, and often people don't stop to do what you have done. So good for you.
I wasn't clear from your introductory post whether your question was about you, or somebody else carrying a pipe, so I decided to wait for more information. I'm glad you wrote again. I'm not angry, or laughing at you, and I respect that you are asking questions. I like that you want to find out more, and that you have found it sobering. Others come here in arrogance, self-righteousness and anger and then it is not very pleasant or informative for anyone.
It seems that you have received information from those with the least credibility: Frauds and anthropologists. That's sad, and you are certainly not alone.
There are people from many different First Nations here. Earthw7 shared some teachings from her Nation; people from other Nations have different Teachings, and here I am referring to her claim that women cannot be pipe carriers. However, I agree with her that one never buys a pipe. To have purchased it from a known fraud, well, you already carry the truth about that inside of you.
I hope you will stick around and continue to learn and share. Again, welcome.
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I think you're worried a little too much. This board has members who were fooled into believing in folks like Sun Bear and then took the veil off. I won't laugh at you. We're all human and we only know what we know. It's not your fault you were taken advantage of. The challenge is...now that you're starting to know better...are you willing to do better?
Welcome to the board.
Superdog
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I do not remember what he had told about being a pipe carrier, but from what he told, I concluded: "If that is what carrying a pipe is about, then I have been a pipe carrier since I was 8 or 10 years old".
Since 15 years, I am part of a small group group of Dutch people that carry a pipe. Until recently, the people that were (or became) members already carried a pipe. ... The only thing I have to say is: "A pipe carrier is someone that takes responsibility for the world that she/he walks around in".
It seems you're still calling yourself a "pipe carrier" and defining that as you want to define it. So yes, people whose traditions you're desecrating will probably be angry about that. They should be.
I feel it would be wrong to turn away and find a more pleasing site.
That's the best sentence you've posted yet, and I'm glad you're reading the site. But I don't think anyone owes you the benefit of any doubt until you stop doing things you have every reason to know are wrong.
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Lime Tree, I am a non-Native, so can only relay here what I have been told by traditional spiritual leaders from the Plains cultures who use the pipe. Usually non-Natives who are mimicking pipe ceremony are basing it on their fantasies of Plains cultures, so I think this is relevant. I back up what earthw7 has said, in particular, as she is a respected traditional woman who knows these things.
I have been present when non-Natives such as yourself have asked spiritual leaders from these cultures what to do with the inappropriate pipes they have. What I have usually heard is that if they know a traditional person they can return it to, to do so. If they only know ceremony-sellers or other exploiters, it may be best to take it to the woods and bury it, then forget where you buried it (I know of some cases where this was advised, but again, better to have someone traditional tell you). Whatever you do, you should not keep it.
I also met Vincent LaDuke, aka Sun Bear. I know white people who claim to be pipe carriers because they bought a pipe, and he pretended to "awaken" it for them by holding it briefly. As others have pointed out, LaDuke was a fraud, and should not have misled you this way. He knew better, but he was in it for the power and money.
I have participated with my NDN relatives in efforts to get exploiters to put down their fake pipes. We know non-Natives who refused to listen, and who are still puffing away in their offensive, fake ceremonies. I will tell you that every single one of those people who had a choice to do right, but chose to do wrong, is having a terrible time of it. They have severe insomnia, devastating migraines, and total chaos in their personal and professional lives; they are unable to maintain close relationships and are living in a type of hell. This was all predicted by the traditional people who tried to help them take a better road, to grow some humility and do something truly spiritual.
So... you are at that crossroads now. You have been given information, and which road you take your next steps upon is going to change your life, for better or worse.
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There is a connection between identity, culture and (mental) sanity.
To me it seems, that those who are attracted to plastic shamans simply play with their own fantasies and also with their own individual hope. For them, asking critical questions is equal to spoiling the game.
To me it seems, that those who can work with deep layers of identity can do so only from a deep understanding of the culture(s) of the person they help. So, indeed, their own culture.
It seems to me also, that those workers must be able to reach far beyond their own hopes and fears, and must be able to confront not only the hope but also the fear of their (sub)culture. For them, asking critical questions may be very unpleasant, but is needed to keep on the path.
By the way - I am the same Lime Tree that introduced himself here:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3936.0
Yes, Earthw7, I am a male - I somehow liked the idea that you thought otherwise. But this is how it is.
And Kathryn - you told me that I stood at a point to choose. It does not work that fast. Things do change - but some things in life do not depend very much on one conscious decision.
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Since this continues on that discussion, I'm moving this to your intro thread.
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There is a connection between identity, culture and (mental) sanity.
To me it seems, that those who are attracted to plastic shamans simply play with their own fantasies and also with their own individual hope. For them, asking critical questions is equal to spoiling the game.
To me it seems, that those who can work with deep layers of identity can do so only from a deep understanding of the culture(s) of the person they help. So, indeed, their own culture.
It seems to me also, that those workers must be able to reach far beyond their own hopes and fears, and must be able to confront not only the hope but also the fear of their (sub)culture. For them, asking critical questions may be very unpleasant, but is needed to keep on the path.
By the way - I am the same Lime Tree that introduced himself here:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3936.0
Yes, Earthw7, I am a male - I somehow liked the idea that you thought otherwise. But this is how it is.
And Kathryn - you told me that I stood at a point to choose. It does not work that fast. Things do change - but some things in life do not depend very much on one conscious decision.
Hi Lime Tree and welcome, I'm having a hard time understanding what you wrote and who you are writing about. In your first sentence you write " There is a connection between identity, culture and (mental) sanity". Who's identity are you writing about and what culture??? Are you writing about Indian culture or white culture? And mental sanity??? I'm guessing your writing about those unfortunate people who follow and spend money on plastic shamans?
Your second sentence "To me it seems, that those who are attracted to plastic shamans simply play with their own fantasies and also with their own individual hope. For them, asking critical questions is equal to spoiling the game". I understand and agree with you.
Your final two sentences....again very confusing. ''To me it seems, that those who can work with deep layers of identity can do so only from a deep understanding of the culture(s) of the person they help. So, indeed, their own culture.
It seems to me also, that those workers must be able to reach far beyond their own hopes and fears, and must be able to confront not only the hope but also the fear of their (sub)culture. For them, asking critical questions may be very unpleasant, but is needed to keep on the path".
Who are these workers?? Are you talking about plastic shamans or Indians? Layers of identity?? Culture? Again, who's culture and who are these people asking critical questions?? Subculture?? I know I'm asking a lot of questions and maybe english is not you first language, but I would appreciate a little clarification.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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Hello Diana,
At this time I pick up one thing: layers of identity.
The idea is, that one has an identity within a framework. That framework can be the family, work and education, etc. If an individual comes into a new framework, that individual has to find an identity, or at least a role.
If an individual functions in a surrounding that he does not feel comfortable in, the individual might learn the appropriate role, but still feel "This is not me". So, he does not identify with what he is doing. In that case one could speak of two layers:
a superficial layer, where the role is, and
a deeper layer.
There will be a pain (of not being able to be oneself) between the two layers.
If one tries just to play a role, staying superficial, then outsiders will see that the deeper layer will take a steering influence.
Thus, an individual can be corrected by his deeper identity.
The idea is that also a culture can need a correction, if the culture as a total is too superficial.
I hope this helps in terms of understanding what I mean.
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Lime Tree, to me you writings seem pretty obscure, so I am not sure that I know what you are saying. However, from what I am picking up, it seems to me that you are not willing to take personal responsibility for your actions. This is your quote:
Things do change - but some things in life do not depend very much on one conscious decision.
IMHO, things in life do not depend very much on "one" conscious decision, but on "many" conscious decisions. You cannot control the events in your life, but you can control your response to them. Everything is a choice. You were given wise counsel from Kathryn and you should heed it now:
you are at that crossroads now. You have been given information, and which road you take your next steps upon is going to change your life, for better or worse.
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I think that maybe i should explain a pipe carrier.
according to our beliefs only:
When you have a camp of 100 people you have one Pipe Carriers.
A pipe carrier make a committment to never do bad things in their lives,
which he has given his life to pray for the people, so he must be ready
at all time to come to pray for the sick, the dying, people in need, he must
put this above all other things. So if people come in the middle of night
he must go or if he has to work he must go to pray instead.
He must work in prayer 24 hour 7 days a week. It is a hard life he has no
life of his own.
(pipe carriers are not women because women have moon time
and cant not be around the pipe so cant go a pray for the people
when they need it.)
On the other hand :)
Each man has a pipe according to our ways to help him pray and for ceremonies
but he is not a pipe carrier, he does not have that right as a pipe carriers
he must use his pipe when needed for prayers but he is just a common man.
Each women has a pipe which she prayer for her family and children
but she is not a pipe carrier. She uses her pipe to pray for her family.
She is just a common woman.
We see a big difference between a pipe carrier and one has a pipe as
two different things. I guess it is like a priest compared to man who prays.
A woman can be become a medicine woman after she is done with her moon time
around the late 50s. But i never heard of a woman pipe carrier.
I hope this helps, it seems that every non native wants to be a
pipe carrier but dont understand what it means. If they dont know who they are!
and are using the pipe to help heal themselves then they are out of balance and
need to find that center or balance would not have the right to pray for others
because all they do is pass their unbalance life to others. You must be a healed
and balance person to be a pipe carrier.
I am Lakota/Dakota
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If an individual functions in a surrounding that he does not feel comfortable in, the individual might learn the appropriate role, but still feel "This is not me". So, he does not identify with what he is doing. In that case one could speak of two layers:
a superficial layer, where the role is, and
a deeper layer.
There will be a pain (of not being able to be oneself) between the two layers.
I get the feeling this is Nuage speak translating to:
"I will be in bad pain if I cannot get access to ndn religions - so you'd better let me go ahead".
If this is what it boils down to, Lime Tree, I'm sorry: making the repair of one's life the responsibility of other people will not be the answer. And the pain certainly coming with it is you being a pain in the neck.
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Hello Diana,
At this time I pick up one thing: layers of identity.
The idea is, that one has an identity within a framework. That framework can be the family, work and education, etc. If an individual comes into a new framework, that individual has to find an identity, or at least a role.
If an individual functions in a surrounding that he does not feel comfortable in, the individual might learn the appropriate role, but still feel "This is not me". So, he does not identify with what he is doing. In that case one could speak of two layers:
a superficial layer, where the role is, and
a deeper layer.
There will be a pain (of not being able to be oneself) between the two layers.
If one tries just to play a role, staying superficial, then outsiders will see that the deeper layer will take a steering influence.
Thus, an individual can be corrected by his deeper identity.
The idea is that also a culture can need a correction, if the culture as a total is too superficial.
I hope this helps in terms of understanding what I mean.
Heavy sigh.....ok, you're not going to answer my questions and you're talking gobbledygook. Layers of identity?? "The idea is, that one has an identity within a framework. That framework can be the family, work and education, etc". So what you're saying is we all have a different personality or persona for family, friends and work/public. Why are you stating the obvious??
"If an individual comes into a new framework, that individual has to find an identity, or at least a role". I really don't think you're using the word "identity" in the right context, and again you're stating the obvious. We all adjust to new situations that's human nature.
I'm going to stop here because I'll just be repeating myself. I think we all know where this is heading. But I will say this, Lime Tree you not fooling anyone with your newage gobbledygook we've heard it all before, actually verbatim. I think you want to join but don't know how. Like Kathryn advised please read through this forum it will give you an idea of who we are and what we stand for.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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Thank you, earthw7, for filling me in.
A lot of what you write I heard in bits and pieces from different people - but that did not seem to make sense as a whole. Also because I heard other things, that did not fit in.
I love to look at other cultures to grow a better understanding of the culture that I am part of. Like I also read about the (European) Middle Ages.
I do not know what to say further, but thank you.
PS: A thing that I learned from this website is, that almost all of the teachers in this field that I followed workshops with in the seventies and eighties went astray - got in trouble with power and with sex to say the least. I knew that of some - but it seems to be the general pattern.
I am glad that I also had teachers in totally different fields - like woodcarving.
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Hi Lime Tree,
Welcome to the site. You say, it seems to be the "general trend" that the "teachers" (I assume you mean New Age/spirituality teachers) went "astray", chasing after sex and money. This is an interesting observation. Why would these people just become this way? I think, rather, it is a sign that these things--money and sex and power--were what they were after, from the very beginning.
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Hello Odelle,
To say that they were after sex or power from the beginning is good enough if you want to tell your daughter or fiancée to stay away from them. But that is not my situation.
At least of Margit Bohdalek I saw that she was eager for power, but at the same time knew that that was dangerous for herself and for others. So time and again she had to force herself back in humility, and she did. (I do not know her life story - she was in her early and mid-twenties when I met her. At that time she first assisted Harley Reagan and then broke with him.)
Of Ronald Chavers I got the picture, that he liked and needed the admiration of his students too much. A friend of mine said (around 1980): "It is so sad that none of his students really understands him."
Admiration is a hard thing to handle. In the film Kumaré, there are episodes where that is made obvious. I suppose it would be wise for those who grow into power, to learn how to handle admiration, sexual longing, and the urge to spare oneself (and thus mislead others). To see it that way helps me more than seeing these people as bad-from-the-start.
There are so many people here in the Netherlands that think they can teach because they know some trick or because they followed the course and bought the T-shirt.
Sorry if I sound like a sulky old man or if I am getting off-track in terms of what this website is for.
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To say that they were after sex or power from the beginning is good enough if you want to tell your daughter or fiancée to stay away from them. But that is not my situation.
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To see it that way helps me more than seeing these people as bad-from-the-start.
I think it's important in this work that we learn to see the truth, no matter how painful.
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To say that they were after sex or power from the beginning is good enough if you want to tell your daughter or fiancée to stay away from them. But that is not my situation.
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To see it that way helps me more than seeing these people as bad-from-the-start.
I think it's important in this work that we learn to see the truth, no matter how painful.
I agree Kathryn.
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I don’t quite know how to say what I have to say … So I am just going to say it. I think part of the breakdown/interpretation is that Limetree is from the Netherlands. Not that the Netherlands is bad or there is anything wrong with it, but it is very removed from the States. So the gap in understanding is much larger. Imagine the level of misunderstanding here in the US, now add a whole Ocean. It is like me trying to understand indigenous issues in New Zealand. The cultural leap is pretty hard. My ex-husband, a tribal member, lived in England for 10 years. And he often mentioned how removed/off the view of Native Americans was in Britain. Sure this is just one guys experience … but it makes sense. So while the intention I believe to be good, is somewhat detached.
This is just my opinion, and I may be very wrong [disclaimer].
Funny cause I use to live up by the Canadian border (Colville, Kettle Falls) just North of the border is where Sun bear practiced. I knew people he hurt and people who were very angry/aware of what was taking place. I remember attending a festival outside Tonasket where one of his “students” was running a “Sun Bear” sweat lodge.
There were tons of drugs at this festival, I remember sitting on this hill, really high on LSD overlooking the “lodge.” To start with the lodge was covered with black plastic and second it was huge. All day tons of naked people were running in and out screaming, “Come have sex my brothers and sisters, come have sex.” People were outside having sex, other people were just laying around on the ground. I just remember being so high watching this bizarre spectacle/orgy/sweat lodge.
There was NOTHING sacred about it, it was totally F*ckd. The fact that it was set up badly, the fact that people were high, the fact that people were running in and out, the fact that I could sit and watch, the fact that people were having sex in the lodge … it was just so wrong. And as high as I was, I remember this strong dirty feeling; pure disgust.
So to say Sun bear is just an idealist? I don’t consider you stupid or a fraud. I consider you very lucky that you were not fully violated. Because this is what was happening to many people. And in someway you were violated. Your trust, desire for spiritual connection, and good will was violated when he sold you that pipe and took your money. The whole reason this site is here.
Can you be a spiritual and enlightened person? Absolutely. We are all spiritual beings. And you have your own gifts in your own way. People are upset when the last fragments of their way are bought and sold under false pretense. Not necessarily at you p[personally. But at a myth and stereo type that is perpetuated and ultimately devalues culture.
It is easy to follow what somebody else says. What is hard is to find and trust your own intuition. Maybe the smoking and use of herbs speaks to you spiritually. That is valid. However, I think – can’t speak for another – but I think what bothers people is when their tradition is misrepresented and used to further enhance/validate your journey.
Coastrange
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I would add that people like sun bear commit a kind of spiritual molestation … I truly believe that. And in my way, it is called dirty magic.
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Thank you, Coastrange.
" Your trust, desire for spiritual connection, and good will was violated . . . "
I will need some time to digest that. See why this touches me. And in how far this is true for some people around me.
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To clarify - I don't really know that ... it isn't for me to say. But I do think that many people have good intentions and really just long for a kind of connection and spiritual understanding.
That as an intention is good and well intended. Some people take advantage of that, which is not good.
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Hello,
A week ago I wrote to the members of our group, that I come to the conclusion that we have too little knowledge and understanding of what it is to have a pipe, and that I see too little possibility to get such knowledge. Most of the posters on this forum will feel that that was obvious. It was not for me.
So I wrote them that I will see them - as planned - next Saturday, but only to say goodbye and clarify my decision, if needed. Maybe I should stress here at the forum, that I am sorry about this decision. I do feel comfortable with my pipe. But as I said, in recent years people come to our group looking for guidance or teachings. That is a very different thing, in my view.
Obviously, some people are trying to talk me into staying in the group. We will see.
I am telling you this, because visiting this website regularly and the reactions I got earlier had a strong influence on the fact that I see things this way now.
I want to stress, that I myself will not celebrate this as a victory of truth. This is an acknowledgement of the fact that I am at a loss, and lack the means to find my way. So I am stepping out of it. I still have to make clear to one or two friends that I am not lacking inner guidance, but lacking connection to the outside world, in this respect. (I mean on the theme of praying with a pipe.)
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Lime Tree, I think stepping away from things that we don't understand is great Being uncomfortable, admitting we don't know everything, and making the decision to leave things alone that are not ours - all good.
I think we non-NDNs also need to learn to get over ourselves. When we do the right thing, we might not be applauded, we might not be praised and celebrated. But we should keep doing the right thing. It isn't always about us.
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I want to thank you Lime tree it made me cry to think someone out there heard our crys,
we only ask that our ways be respected and just step away is the first step into understanding,
I know that the answer you look for are inside of you and the peace you want not in anothers
stolen culture thank you
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Thank you, Earthw7; thank you Piff.
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So last Saturday I saw my friends. One of them had proposed to all, that if I wanted, I could decide how I wanted this meeting to be organised. It was supposed to be freezing or raining, and I decided I would explain my view in the sweat lodge - the only place to sit warm and dry.
The other members were very supportive to me as far as this was my personal thing: being in a situation of not-knowing, and also the despair of living in a world that it heating so far, that the effect will be devastating for most life forms on earth.
In the week before, and also half a year ago, I saw that some wanted to see my doubts as my personal thing and personal situation. Only after the gathering was over, I saw that the things that I see as a problem of the group had not been addressed, or at least not convincingly.
It is hard to communicate about these things here on the forum, because the same things have a very different feeling tone on this forum from in that group. The same things that are felt as support and inspiring there are seen as misleading and nonsense here.
(In my view, faith is not prescribed by logic. Compare hope: you need to have hope when you least expect a good outcome. There is nothing logical about hope. In the same vain, something that is inspiring need not be logical.)
I told them at the end of the meeting, that I had a feeling that I would see them again. But that probably my view on the situation would be different in three days time, and again different in three weeks time.
Each person in the group told me that they would respect whatever decision I take, and will support me in what I see as right.
I like to add, that in the last weeks I meet with the theme of being-present-in-a-hostile-environment in various ways - not really personally, but I see it around me - and also the theme of teaching my eyes not to see hostility when there is none. In other words: having trust and allowing support.
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I just wrote the members of this group again. My second farewell letter. I am sad now. That was to be expected.
On this forum it is proper to say, that I did not mention the theme of cultural appropriation in my letters to them.
With something that should be a guiding principle in one's life, one does not only want one's own integrity and intuition, and exchange with friends - one also wants a broader connection: to history of ones's culture, to generations that went before us, etc. We will see what life brings me.
OK. I suppose I will speak on the phone with each of them in the next weeks. I suppose they will not any more try to keep me.