NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: Wayne on September 29, 2010, 12:48:42 pm
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I'm Wayne i live in the Netherlands, but was born in the USA.
It is beleived, that i have some native american blood running trough my veins.
I'm appalled by the things some people do in respect to the native traditions.
I was lucky, to have had guidance by a native, who was a medicin-man.
He told me, i could use that same description for myself (medicinman).
I was proud to have become this far, so i used the name medicinman in order to be able to help more people.
I found out, that the use of this term attracted al lot of people and most of them wanted to know about the rituals and other sacred things of the natives.
I soon decided to change my denomination from medicinman to Nature-man (freely translated from dutch).
I do not use the sacred methodes for others anymore, instead i use the intention of it and made my own sort of rituals.
I explain to people, that i did receive the lessons, but that i'm not using them anymore.
This stipulates, that i was a "fraud", but my intentions were pure.
Nevertheless.... i was a fraud, since i was selling ceremonies (at the price it costs, so i made no profit).
Now i beleive, that i'm doing the things in the spirit of the great mystery, but i'm not selling native ceremonies anymore.
The sacred ceremonies are safe with me now.
I'm looking forward to hear your view on this.
May you all be blessed.
Wayne
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I'll ask him about the babies.
Purtaining to the cost-coverage..... no-one needs to travel you say.
That's your opinion, wich i respect, but.... i have an other opinion. ;)
I also charge money for the time spent in helping people.
Nowadays the currency for gifting is money.
I wish it were different, but it is not something i can change permanently.
I do also accept other gifts, when people cannot pay me, i still have a lot of self-made marmelade ;D
My car was washed one time, my dogs were walked, when i was in the hospital (some time ago already).
So there is always some form of compensation, i don't see the harm in charging money for ones time spent.
Offcourse are there the exploiters.... they charge outragiously!
Many blessings,
Wayne
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The exploiters are not just people who charge outrageous amounts. The exploiters are also those who are setting themselves up as healers and teachers of ways they don't fully understand, and don't have a right to use. Exploiters are often people who have a little bit of knowledge, but who were badly trained and are out on their own, operating outside the traditional system of checks and balances that legitimate healers and teachers operate within.
Someone can never charge a cent and still be exploiting NDN or other traditional cultures.
[As the above is not about Redsky, but is a tangent about your beliefs on charging for ceremony and healing, I'm moving this tangent to your intro thread]
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I replied to Critter..... so i copied the text back to the original topic.
Since you think it belongs here.... i'll leave it here also.
I agree, that in copying beliefs without understanding the rights and more importantly the obligations, there can be exploitation.
Thanks for letting me see this.
Many Blessings,
Wayne
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I'm replying to another.....
It starts with ..... as you can read.
That is clearly a reply to the question asked.
I elaborate on it by telling something about people charging, including myself.
I don't feel the need to post this in my intro, that should be my choice don't you think?
Don't feel attacked in anyway, i mean to say this with respect in my voice...... since you don't hear a voice, i explain my feelings in this. ;)
Many blessings,
Wayne
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I don't feel attacked. I'm trying to let you know how this forum works. Please spend some time reading and getting to know the views held by most of our members about charging for ceremony, who has the rights to ceremony, and similar topics. I think you will find that if you spend some time listening before jumping in on multiple threads and defending things that we are opposed to, things will go better for you.
This forum is for fighting exploitation, not defending it. Often people come here to defend ceremony-sellers and other exploiters. You can share your views, of course, but you may want to think about the fact that we have had white Europeans come here and try to defend exploiters and ceremony-selling so many times it's all very familiar to us. We try to be patient, in case it's simply a matter of someone having not had access to information, but if you get rude or can't follow the rules of the forum you can't participate. Consider this a polite warning. :-)
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Consider this a polite warning. :-)
I will. ;)
I would ask you to read my intro carefully also, since i do not sell sacred ceremonies anymore.
I did one time, but it didn't feel right, so i abandoned that.
Now i'm using the knowledge passed on to me, to help people.
Helping in many ways, but most important.... just lending an ear.
I post on many forums and did not come across such a diligent moderator ;)
I respect your views, so i will try my best in learning the rules of this board, i do hope on some more of your patience and that of the other moderators.
I do use some things from several "shamanic" teachings in helping people, but those are only based loosely on what i have learned.
For instance i use a drum for healing, i explain to people, that sound can heal people and that i use the drum for it, as other people use other sounds to achieve the same effect.
So no drum-healing-ceremony!
I don't sing when drumming (i wouldn't want the people to startle ;D)
I just let the sound-vibrations do their thing.
Sometimes just a hug can do wonders!
Many Blessings,
Wayne
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I'll ask him about the babies.
Purtaining to the cost-coverage..... no-one needs to travel you say.
That's your opinion, wich i respect, but.... i have an other opinion. ;)
I also charge money for the time spent in helping people.
Nowadays the currency for gifting is money.
I wish it were different, but it is not something i can change permanently.
I do also accept other gifts, when people cannot pay me, i still have a lot of self-made marmelade ;D
My car was washed one time, my dogs were walked, when i was in the hospital (some time ago already).
So there is always some form of compensation, i don't see the harm in charging money for ones time spent.
Offcourse are there the exploiters.... they charge outragiously!
Many blessings,
Wayne
i help people. i don't need anything but a simple thank you.
life is hard, i work to make money to pay bills. i am very
strong in my beliefs that Spirit does indeed give some of
us a gift to carry into the world. the gift is for the people
and it is honor to be a carrier. i would never soil a gift
by making the people pay for what is gift. it is imo, a dishonor.
and.. i don't believe that those who truly carry such a gift
would charge.. so those who do.. charge anything at all...
i don't believe they are carriers of Spirit gift.
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i believe if you are helping people in a clinical setting, then by all means charge for services or earn a wage, but when it comes to the Spiritual Realm for Native People, then its completely opposite, Chief Looking Horse put it so succinctly, (Creator Bless that Man!)
http://www.manataka.org/page108.html#October_20,_2009 on the Sedona Tragedy:
...."When you do ceremony - you can not have money on your mind.
We deal with the pure sincere energy to create healing that comes from everyone in that circle of ceremony. The heart and mind must be connected. When you involve money, it changes the energy of healing. The person wants to get what they paid for; the Spirit Grandfathers will not be there, Our way of life is now being exploited! You do more damage then good. No” mention” of monetary energy should exist in healing, not even with a can of love donations. When that energy exists, they will not even come. Only ‘after’ the ceremony, between the person that is being healed and the Intercessor who has helped connect with the Great Spirit, the energy of money can be given out of appreciation. That exchange of energy is from the heart; it is private and does not involve the Grandfathers! Whatever gift of appreciation the person who received the help, can now give the Intercessor what ever they feel their healing is worth."...
In my fundamental orthodox way of thinking this means to me, no mention of money before the ceremony, no charging of fees, no asking for donations, no mentioning to come after the Ceremony to pay or contribute, the energy of money cannot be allowed to taint Ceremony! so after the Ceremony, (and not if youve been lead to feel guilty that the Conductor deserves to be rewarded,) if in your Heart, you feel you would like to honour the Conductor of the Ceremony with any gifting, thats fine!
More and more Traditional People of the Western Hemisphere are adopting a Zero-Tolerance in regards to charging or profiting of Ceremony, and wayne whether you agree or not thats simply the way it is....i have been in Ceremonies with many many many other Traditional Native People, and not ONCE have i ever heard money or donations mentioned before a Ceremony is going to be held. And only once in all the 100's of Ceremonies i was invited too, did i ever hear the mention of a donation after a Sweat, but it was only in general discussion, and it just so happened even tho we discussed it, none of us present thought it was the right thing to do. But mind you, its also up to the Community to support the Conductors of the Ceremonies, helping with wood, the Grandmother rocks used in the Lodge, the Feasts, gas, building Long-Houses etc, sadly this is not done enough in our Native Communities, and many Ceremonial Leaders are used to paying for everything themselves.
The only exception in Indian Country we make for this topic is for those Ceremonial Leaders who work in Prisons conducting Ceremonies for the Prisoners and rightly so!
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I don't charge for the gift!
i don't see the harm in charging money for ones time spent.
I charge for the time i spent on it!
Time i could have used to do things with my family, or to get groceries, or.... you name it.
I have a paid job in wich i get paid for my time, so why not for other time spent?
My job is working with refugees, wich i get paid for by my employer...... do i make money on the sorrow these people have endured? No, i just get compensated for the time i put in it.
The very good quote from Chief Looking Horse does not pertain to this, since i do not sell ceremonies!
Please read carefully.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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i have said all i need, but for point of perspective i will say this..
do you get paid for time spent with family? getting groceries?
i fail to see the difference.
in my job i am paid because my time is being sold to my bosses.
in my life, i am not paid because my time on earth is given to me.
enough said from me.
be well.
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hi wayne and thank you i did go and read your intro again, and am glad you are not selling anymore. my post by the Chief was not to get you to stop selling ceremony, but to give you a peek into the mindset of WHY we have this prohibition, i feel its very important to share why as well!
now for the next topic and its the one the non-natives have the tuffest time wrapping their minds around, here's an excerpt from the Mi'kmaq Ethics Watch (comprised of Elders of the Mi'kmaq Nation, which include some of my family members) http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1753.0
..."Principles
Mi'kmaw people are the guardians and interpreters of their culture and knowledge system - past, present, and future.
Mi'kmaw knowledge, culture, and arts, are inextricably connected with their traditional lands, districts, and territories.
Mi'kmaw people have the right and obligation to exercise control to protect their cultural and intellectual properties and knowledge.
... Mi'kmaw knowledge may have traditional owners involving individuals, families, clans, associations, and societies which must be determined in accordance with these peoples' own customs, laws, and procedures."...
What this means is that my Spirituality, Customs, Traditions and other Traditional Knowledge is the Cultural, Intellectual and Spiritual Property of the Mi'kmaq Nation and here the Mi'kmaq Grand Council, of which my direct family has a representative on, is stating its not just our Right but our Obligation to protect this knowledge. So concerning your "shamanic teachings" if you have any Traditional Mi'kmaw Knowledge you are here-by expressly forbidden to share, or teach this knowledge.
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My point exactly critter, for family or yourself you don't get paid.
So all else is time wasted, unless ..... you get something in return, like from your bosses.
What if someone has his/her own company..... they also charge for the time spent!
So i don't see the difference.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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My point exactly critter, for family or yourself you don't get paid.
So all else is time wasted, unless ..... you get something in return, like from your bosses.
What if someone has his/her own company..... they also charge for the time spent!
So i don't see the difference.
Many blessings,
Wayne
ok, i will say something more simply..
helping people is not time wasted, it is my life. my life given to me for free.
what else to do in my life? be with family sure.. i don't charge them either.
what i get in return is good feeling of being good part of the good life we
are given. what more do i need?
i need money for bills, i sell some of my time for that.. the rest of my
time is given freely to Life.. my life and others' lives.
whether you can understand or not is not my issue.. and i am only
repeating as courtesy.
be well.
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@apukjij
I understand.
I'm not aware of any Mi'kmaq ceremony i know of.
I was tought by a Lakota.
He passed away last year at the age of 70. wich i heard is kind of old for a Lakota, or any native.
Now you probably would want a name..... his name was Kevin Bluecloud and he lived near Nowata, OK.
That's all he told me about himself.
I have been in contact with him for over 15 years.
I also visited him several times and each time he had something for me to do.... never easy. ;)
Nevertheless, i love(d) this man to death.
He told me the ceremonies are sacred and never to be performed in front of "jackasses", that is what he called it.
I took it, that jackasses were people who not willing to learn about the ways he tought me.
Since i learned more from him and others...... i now know what those "jackasses" are...... jackasses! ;D
Many blessings,
Wayne
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Thank you critter for clarifying.
As you can see, we differ in opinion, that's fine.
But what if people came to your door and asked for your help?
I mean several times a day, every day of the week.
You would probably either send them away, or quit your job and pay your bills from helping people.
Having read your posts, you would most probably do the first.
Because if you wouldn't, you would have no more time left to do the things you need to do.
That's what happened to me, i needed to do something and i couldn't get myself to send people "on their way", so i started asking something in return, starting with money.
The job i do..... i do part-time now, as i do with helping people.
I hope you understand where i'm coming from..... and i don't mean the Netherlands :D
Many blessings,
Wayne
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Wayne, why are you here? What is it you're hoping to get out of participating in this forum?
I'm copying the current content of your intro below, as I see you've gone back to edit it since people started questioning you.
I'm Wayne i live in the Netherlands, but was born in the USA.
It is beleived, that i have some native american blood running trough my veins.
I'm appalled by the things some people do in respect to the native traditions.
I was lucky, to have had guidance by a native, who was a medicin-man.
He told me, i could use that same description for myself (medicinman).
I was proud to have become this far, so i used the name medicinman in order to be able to help more people.
I found out, that the use of this term attracted al lot of people and most of them wanted to know about the rituals and other sacred things of the natives.
I soon decided to change my denomination from medicinman to Nature-man (freely translated from dutch).
I do not use the sacred methodes for others anymore, instead i use the intention of it and made my own sort of rituals.
I explain to people, that i did receive the lessons, but that i'm not using them anymore.
This stipulates, that i was a "fraud", but my intentions were pure.
Nevertheless.... i was a fraud, since i was selling ceremonies (at the price it costs, so i made no profit).
Now i beleive, that i'm doing the things in the spirit of the great mystery, but i'm not selling native ceremonies anymore.
The sacred ceremonies are safe with me now.
I'm looking forward to hear your view on this.
May you all be blessed.
Wayne
I was tought by a Lakota.
He passed away last year at the age of 70. wich i heard is kind of old for a Lakota, or any native.
Now you probably would want a name..... his name was Kevin Bluecloud and he lived near Nowata, OK.
That's all he told me about himself.
Did you pay Kevin Bluecloud to teach you ceremony? Did you meet others in his family or community? Did they say you could call yourself a medicine man?
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You are not very trusting are you?
I only edited some typo's!!!
instead i use the intention of it and made
was instead use the intention of it and made
for example. I only added an "I".
That one i remember, the others were similar typo's!!!!
Not everyone edits their posts to hide something!!!!
I find this very offensive.
I never had anyone stating it this way and i visit boards for over 6 years already!
I apologized in an other topic for my words....... i believe it is your turn now.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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you ask me a direct question when i have stated i have nothing more i can add to say. and the situation you impose is not likely.. not unless you advertise in some way and self proclaim.. and i am no one and really, i do not own anything of this nature, there are no promises or guarantees, so i doubt anyone would be pounding on my door. if they did, i'd consider it fairly rude.
i'm not a "medicine" person, i'm not anything but a person in the world who helps when it is evident to try. that is all i am. and i personally would be wary of any such self proclaimed 'medicine' person who has (allows) people pounding on their door several times a day. who gives permission to pound on someones door.. ?
to answer your question.. i would simply move with no forwarding address.
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Thank you for your answer critter.
Moving without a forwarding adres is a way to go in the states, but not in the Netherlands.
It is simply not permitted in the Netherlands.
And the pounding on the door is also calls on the telephone and online contact, i used it as a metaphore.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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I'm Wayne i live in the Netherlands, but was born in the USA.
It is beleived, that i have some native american blood running trough my veins.
Hi Wayne. What Nation do you believe you may be related to? Why?
I'm appalled by the things some people do in respect to the native traditions.
Me too.
I was lucky, to have had guidance by a native, who was a medicin-man.
He told me, i could use that same description for myself (medicinman).
I was proud to have become this far, so i used the name medicinman in order to be able to help more people.
It takes much more than 15 years of intermittent contact with a possible indigenous person to become a medicine person.
I found out, that the use of this term attracted al lot of people and most of them wanted to know about the rituals and other sacred things of the natives.
How did you deal with this when it would occur?
I soon decided to change my denomination from medicinman to Nature-man (freely translated from dutch).
Oh. What does a Nature-man do?
I do not use the sacred methodes for others anymore, instead i use the intention of it and made my own sort of rituals.
Could you please explain using the intention of something? I’ve heard this before but I really don’t understand exactly what it means.
I explain to people, that i did receive the lessons, but that i'm not using them anymore.
This stipulates, that i was a "fraud", but my intentions were pure.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I’m not sure that I would call you a fraud, I would think it would be more like grossly misinformed.
Nevertheless.... i was a fraud, since i was selling ceremonies (at the price it costs, so i made no profit).
It doesn’t cost anything to do ceremony. In your conversations with others here you attempted to validate compensation for something gifted by Creator for the People. Help out with gas? Sure. Provide them with a cozy place to sleep and have them at your table for meals should they stay with you? Sure. But compensation for time? Nope, it does not work that way and please do not be so full of yourself to say that it is okay. It’s not. Period. End of sentence. You and others cannot make that acceptable when it is NOT, I don’t care how you try to rationalize it. It just isn’t done with actual factual traditional people.
Now i beleive, that i'm doing the things in the spirit of the great mystery, but i'm not selling native ceremonies anymore.
I am glad you are no longer selling something sacred. But you have been defending the practice.
The sacred ceremonies are safe with me now.
I'm looking forward to hear your view on this.
May you all be blessed.
Wayne
I am not saying this to be mean or to hurt your feelings but honestly I don’t think you were taught sacred ceremony, because the gentleman who taught you did not teach you the very basics.
Sky
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But what if people came to your door and asked for your help?
I mean several times a day, every day of the week.
You would probably either send them away, or quit your job and pay your bills from helping people.
Having read your posts, you would most probably do the first.
Because if you wouldn't, you would have no more time left to do the things you need to do.
That's what happened to me, i needed to do something and i couldn't get myself to send people "on their way", so i started asking something in return, starting with money.
The job i do..... i do part-time now, as i do with helping people.
I hope you understand where i'm coming from..... and i don't mean the Netherlands :D
Many blessings,
Wayne
Why were people seeking you out? How did they find you? Why was this multitude of people lacking in manners and common courtesy?
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I was told, that there is a little Lakota in me, but so little, that i will never claim to be part Lakota.
It is in the region of 1/16th.
Too far away to have any claim whatsoever.
I understand, now that it takes a lot more time and it is only for REAL natives, wich i am definitly not!
Altough i'm still proud to have Lakota ancestors, just as proud that i have Yewish ancestors and so on.
They are all equally important to me.
I dealt with people coming to me and wanted to know about some sacred things in the following matter:
Why do you want to know, you haven't been among natives.
I will teach you about yourself, if you let me.
Since i'm only aware of one nature-man.... myself, a nature-man is trying his best to live with nature.
Also is he learning everything he can about the nature surrounding him.
He is aware of all the nature around him and is respectfully using nature to help himself and others.
Using the intention of something is also not easy to explain, but i will give it a try.
Please don't bite me on examples.....
Say, that i would want to do a sweatlodge, i would experience a sweatlodge and ask questions about it afterwards, so i can form a picture in my mind about what the purpose is of the sweatlodge.
It is for cleansing and for spiritual cleansing, and more...
I would research on how to achieve a similar effect and if it is possible i would try it out with some people who understand the purpose of it also.
Afterwards i would ask them what needs to be adressed in order to make it better.
In this way no native traditions are being used, only the intention of it.
Ofcourse i would need some sort of construction to let the people sweat, so a lodge would still be needed.
I would explain to people, that this event is not native.
I hope you understand my explanation, if not.... keep asking.
I do say, that i was a fraud, since i did sell ceremonies, wich i thought were native.
I'm not proud of that part, but i also do not wish to hide it.
Creator grants those gifts, i believe i received that gift also.
I never asked for it, i just got it.
I see it as a talent and a lot of people get rich of off their talent (footbaal-players and so on for example)
I do not wish to get rich of off my talent, just to be able to make a decent living.
What a decent living is for me..... i can pay my bills, buy groceries, get some nice toys for my son, on occasion get my wife something nice.... that kind of a living.
I guess i have been defending it.... it is not my intention and yes, the more i read posts here, the more i come to the conclusion that something went wrong in my...... education.
I did learn a lot from it, but i now know it can never be the real deal.
I will go on with what i did learn, without claiming it to be native.
This is one of the reasons i joined this board, it opened my eyes!
I now know that, there's always a reason for things to happen.
Thank you all for virtually kicking my ass :D
I do hope we will be able to teach all this i have learned to other people also.
I cannot do this alone, and need your help.
I will do whatever needs to be done, to help you people to expose false claims.
I also hope, that you see, my intentions are ok and that i have nothing to hide.
We will still have some different views on things, that is ok with me.
We live in different worlds so to say, you have your views wich come from your heritage, i have mine.
Let's respect that of eachother, so we can help eachother.
I don't remember who said it, but i remember something like this:"we are all brothers and sisters, red, white, black and yellow, we are all related" this goes on offcourse, but i do not want to fill in words i don't remember anymore.
Let us all be the brothers and sisters we are.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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This reply made me happy,
Some-one who is really trying to see the person behind a name and some letters.
Thank you for clarifying a lot.
Yes i agree i have to be carefull in using the related-thing.
It was intended in a way (as i understand it, correct me if i'm wrong) to have people talk to eachother instead of fighting.
About the no compesation-remark... i chose to be here and voluteered my help.
I do not always volunteer, so a lot of help is done for free also ;)
But i want it to be my own choice to help for free.
Thanks again for your reply.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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Using the intention of something is also not easy to explain, but i will give it a try.
Please don't bite me on examples.....
Say, that i would want to do a sweatlodge, i would experience a sweatlodge and ask questions about it afterwards, so i can form a picture in my mind about what the purpose is of the sweatlodge.
Again, please remember that we are pretty sure you've never participated in a legitimate sweat lodge ceremony. And it's very clear that you were not trained to lead one.
It is for cleansing and for spiritual cleansing, and more...
I would research on how to achieve a similar effect and if it is possible i would try it out with some people who understand the purpose of it also.
Again, how could they?
Afterwards i would ask them what needs to be adressed in order to make it better.
In this way no native traditions are being used, only the intention of it.
Ofcourse i would need some sort of construction to let the people sweat, so a lodge would still be needed.
I would explain to people, that this event is not native.
I hope you understand my explanation, if not.... keep asking.
I will go on with what i did learn, without claiming it to be native.
A key thing about traditional cultures is that the practice is based in, well, tradition. Particular ceremonies and rituals have developed over many generations to meet the spiritual needs of a particular group of people, living on a particular type of land, and interacting with particular spirits. A purification ceremony for Indigenous people of the Plains is different from a purification ceremony used by the Indigenous in Hawaii, and both are different from a purification ceremony used in ancient Ireland. There are different values, assumptions, and traditions. A lot of what you're assuming, as an outsider, is about "purification" is not what meets the eye. You are assuming you know the purpose of these ceremonies when it seems clear you do not. It seems to me you learned what you know from people who were not from the culture you claim.
If you are taking as a basis the ceremony of another people's culture, and only altering it cosmetically, or using pieces of the original ceremony and ceremonial structures out of context, that is still appropriation. It also dishonors the ways of one's own ancestors, which fall into disuse as they are replaced with things from other cultures that seem easier or more "exotic". If you read the threads on here, there is a serious problem with people adopting the plains-style sweat lodge, changing some of the details, and then claiming it's something else that belongs to them. Whether it be the so-called "Celtic Shamans" or people like James Arthur Ray and his Sedona death lodge, it's still appropriation, misrepresentation, and in many cases, very dangerous.
The ceremonies and protocols for who can lead a ceremony in a lodge exist in the form they do for a reason - they are tested over generations to be safe. Taking bits of the ceremony out of context - yes, even "just" the lodge - is still ripping off the Indigenous people from whom you got the idea to try such a thing. People who change those ceremonies, or perform them without proper training, can die. We've also heard of people having psychotic breakdowns from these misunderstood and changed ceremonies.
If you want to do a "cleansing" ceremony, in my opinion it should be suited to the ways practiced by your ancestors. We all owe respect to our ancestors, and go back far enough and every single one of us has ancestors who practiced earth-based ceremonies. Many Europeans cry, "But, we have nothing!" It's not true. It just means that European hasn't looked hard enough, hasn't worked hard enough, and is expecting their finds to look like those of a romanticized Plains NDN culture.
While most people have at least some ancestry from multiple cultures, I'm not talking about, "I have blood from those people, so I can do that culture's ceremonies". No, as many people have repeatedly said, it doesn't work that way. It's a process of understanding your own culture and the ways of your ancestors, and finding and cultivating community that can provide checks and balances on any ceremonial people. No matter what culture you're part of, it's about respect and community, not making up new rules on your own and expecting people to respect that.
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Well, Wayne, looks like you have a new thread where you can share: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2914
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I replied there.
Blessings,
Wayne
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This is my goodbye from your board.
I've read a lot of articles already and found, that your way of dealing with people is not my "cup of tee".
I've seen people who apologize again and again, even begging for mercy, and what do you do here?
You kick them further down in the dust!
Even people who practise their own spirituality (of their own country) are not safe from your superiority!
If this is how natives treat people and yes i know i'm generalizing now, but hey! so do you all the time over here!
Then i will not be part of this abuse of people anymore!
Go on with your rambling and falsely accusing people, but without me!
I met some people in the states wich do not do these things and they called themselfs natives.
I will no longer name any names, since i would not want you to smear their name!
I think it is time for you to do what you tell people to do:"get of your highhorse and start treating people with respect!!!"
Because of the way you treat people with other beliefs (shamanism, reiki, shamballa, tantra and so on) you lost the chance to teach me what you try to "sell".
The few people who did treat me with respect: thanks.
I hereby demand you close my account and delete my posts, if not legal action will be considered.
Still.... many blessings,
Wayne
Edited for the thanks to the people who did treat me right. (just to make sure i didn't get that one again)
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apparently you are reading but not hearing what is being said..
oh i know, i've been there.. when i was ragged down 13 years ago in a forum for
defending that spirituality cannot be "stolen".. now i know better.. because i
took time to try and understand and see from other view.. and now i agree..
it CAN be stolen.. and it is... often..
people aren't begging for mercy.. they begging for others to accept their justification
for selling Spirit and selling Native Spirituality. Begging for their excuses to be accepted
and that they just be let go of their own guilt for having doing so.. well.. that won't
be given..
edited: 30 years? sorry.. 13.. 1997.
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you have just done what every other culture vulture has done when joining this forum.
rather than accept that there is no such thing as shamanism, the medicine wheel etc and that each First Nation is the owner of their Intellectual and Spiritual Property;
you become short tempered, vindictive and end up threatening legal means, this is the exact blueprint every other culture vulture has done here in our Forum.
In my Native language (i am not fluent but am working towards it) we would call this behavior "Napi'ta'lsit" which is related to the root word for reflection, as the reflection in a mirror or water; it happens when someone sees a reflection of themselves and it makes them angry and then they lash out and blame others, seeing this behavior pattern in others when its really a reflection of their own nature.
btw the Admins only delete inappropriate posts or ban inappropriate accts, if you want your posts deleted and your acct deleted do it yourself.
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" Culture Vulture" does seem to be a very appropriate description in many cases!
I have never done ceremony for anyone, just never felt a personal justification in doing so.
My own thought is that ceremony, any ceremony, belongs to the originator, because this was truly his/her personal prayer.
The person who "first" created it, used it for a specific purpose or a specific need, and not for this person themselve, but for someone else.
The creator of the original ceremony was acting as an "interface" between himself/herself and the Greatest Mysteries...in order to petition for a particular outcome.
This, would have been an extremely personal event, involving very long internal struggles to even get oneself close enough to a place where this sort of communication is possible.
No man off the street, so to say, is anywhere near to this capacity.
So even trying, to copy something of such profound sincerity, is a mockery.
And yes, some were taught to carry on the prayer in the same way, but many others have not had the sincerity or the internal struggles, or even the intentions that the originator had at the time.
And I would think that it takes a very special sort of person to do this the right way, and not just someone thinking it`s cool, to pretend to do it.
And because of the real potential through knowledge and sincere communication of this kind, of course it would be among those first things high jacked or appropriated by the spiritually asleep or...better known, as the new age movement.
Another thought, is simply that if a ceremony becomes a (ritual) in this way, it loses it`s power and becomes a block to the place, it once led to, so those new age-rs attempting to use any of these things through simple repetition, copying or the in the wrong way, are already stopped from gaining anything from them, other then a few bucks for the performance.
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This is my goodbye from your board.
I've read a lot of articles already and found, that your way of dealing with people is not my "cup of tee".
I've seen people who apologize again and again, even begging for mercy, and what do you do here?
You kick them further down in the dust!
Even people who practise their own spirituality (of their own country) are not safe from your superiority!
If this is how natives treat people and yes i know i'm generalizing now, but hey! so do you all the time over here!
Then i will not be part of this abuse of people anymore!
Go on with your rambling and falsely accusing people, but without me!
I met some people in the states wich do not do these things and they called themselfs natives.
I will no longer name any names, since i would not want you to smear their name!
I think it is time for you to do what you tell people to do:"get of your highhorse and start treating people with respect!!!"
Because of the way you treat people with other beliefs (shamanism, reiki, shamballa, tantra and so on) you lost the chance to teach me what you try to "sell".
The few people who did treat me with respect: thanks.
I hereby demand you close my account and delete my posts, if not legal action will be considered.
Still.... many blessings,
Wayne
Edited for the thanks to the people who did treat me right. (just to make sure i didn't get that one again)
Apparently this was NOT his final good bye. He sent one (last?) legal threat. Here it is, followed by my reply.
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I noticed a lot of copyright violations on the forum.
Did have the express permission to have text from an other website posted on your forum?
I know of at least two which are not.
I hereby order you to delete any text from the websites: www.natures-way.mosher.nl and www.the-native-way.com
These two websites did not give you permission to use any text (copyrighted by law) on your forum.
You are in direct violation of the copyright-act and authors-rights.
I so hereby demand, that you delete any and all text pertaining and leading to these two websites.
Sincerely,
Wayne Mosher
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There are no copyright violations. Under Fair Use Doctrine, a site may be quoted for purposes of critique or identification.
It seems the Mr. Spiritual act is no longer being used by you. It's a common tactic for exploiters and frauds to claim "copyright violations" to silence critics.
These emails will be posted so everyone can see the true you.
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Good reply Al
At first I felt a bit sorry for Wayne, partly because his immature style of posting suggested that he was a teenager. Many people act in a foolish and arrogant manner as adolescents, I certainly did, and I think that it is kind to remember what it was like and to cut them a bit if slack. One of the things that shocked me the most about Wayne's websites is that, from his photos, he appears to be middle aged.
I appreciate that those of you who have posted here longer than I have probably encounter this kind of person all the time, but I really do feel shocked at his behaviour.
It has also left me wondering about whether there is a specific diagnostic category of narcissistic mental illness or disorder that many frauds and culture vultures might fit into.
I do not know of such a category, but it may be that it exists but simply has yet to be defined. I would like to give this some further thought and may start a thread on the subject so that people can share their thoughts re this too.
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quoted for documentation
I don't charge for the gift!
i don't see the harm in charging money for ones time spent.
I charge for the time i spent on it!
Time i could have used to do things with my family, or to get groceries, or.... you name it.
I have a paid job in wich i get paid for my time, so why not for other time spent?
My job is working with refugees, wich i get paid for by my employer...... do i make money on the sorrow these people have endured? No, i just get compensated for the time i put in it.
The very good quote from Chief Looking Horse does not pertain to this, since i do not sell ceremonies!
Please read carefully.
Many blessings,
Wayne
My point exactly critter, for family or yourself you don't get paid.
So all else is time wasted, unless ..... you get something in return, like from your bosses.
What if someone has his/her own company..... they also charge for the time spent!
So i don't see the difference.
Many blessings,
Wayne
I was told, that there is a little Lakota in me, but so little, that i will never claim to be part Lakota.
It is in the region of 1/16th.
Too far away to have any claim whatsoever.
I understand, now that it takes a lot more time and it is only for REAL natives, wich i am definitly not!
Altough i'm still proud to have Lakota ancestors, just as proud that i have Yewish ancestors and so on.
They are all equally important to me.
I dealt with people coming to me and wanted to know about some sacred things in the following matter:
Why do you want to know, you haven't been among natives.
I will teach you about yourself, if you let me.
Since i'm only aware of one nature-man.... myself, a nature-man is trying his best to live with nature.
Also is he learning everything he can about the nature surrounding him.
He is aware of all the nature around him and is respectfully using nature to help himself and others.
Using the intention of something is also not easy to explain, but i will give it a try.
Please don't bite me on examples.....
Say, that i would want to do a sweatlodge, i would experience a sweatlodge and ask questions about it afterwards, so i can form a picture in my mind about what the purpose is of the sweatlodge.
It is for cleansing and for spiritual cleansing, and more...
I would research on how to achieve a similar effect and if it is possible i would try it out with some people who understand the purpose of it also.
Afterwards i would ask them what needs to be adressed in order to make it better.
In this way no native traditions are being used, only the intention of it.
Ofcourse i would need some sort of construction to let the people sweat, so a lodge would still be needed.
I would explain to people, that this event is not native.
I hope you understand my explanation, if not.... keep asking.
I do say, that i was a fraud, since i did sell ceremonies, wich i thought were native.
I'm not proud of that part, but i also do not wish to hide it.
Creator grants those gifts, i believe i received that gift also.
I never asked for it, i just got it.
I see it as a talent and a lot of people get rich of off their talent (footbaal-players and so on for example)
I do not wish to get rich of off my talent, just to be able to make a decent living.
What a decent living is for me..... i can pay my bills, buy groceries, get some nice toys for my son, on occasion get my wife something nice.... that kind of a living.
I guess i have been defending it.... it is not my intention and yes, the more i read posts here, the more i come to the conclusion that something went wrong in my...... education.
I did learn a lot from it, but i now know it can never be the real deal.
I will go on with what i did learn, without claiming it to be native.
This is one of the reasons i joined this board, it opened my eyes!
I now know that, there's always a reason for things to happen.
Thank you all for virtually kicking my ass :D
I do hope we will be able to teach all this i have learned to other people also.
I cannot do this alone, and need your help.
I will do whatever needs to be done, to help you people to expose false claims.
I also hope, that you see, my intentions are ok and that i have nothing to hide.
We will still have some different views on things, that is ok with me.
We live in different worlds so to say, you have your views wich come from your heritage, i have mine.
Let's respect that of eachother, so we can help eachother.
I don't remember who said it, but i remember something like this:"we are all brothers and sisters, red, white, black and yellow, we are all related" this goes on offcourse, but i do not want to fill in words i don't remember anymore.
Let us all be the brothers and sisters we are.
Many blessings,
Wayne
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what a jerk. just saying.
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I guess Wayne came in here for some kind of validation from you guys.
"You´re ok, you´re one of us!!"
Seems like many frauds think that smoothtalking combined with a few lies will do the trick.
Which in itself is offensive to Native people, as if you guys wouldn´t be able to identify the "real deal".
The ultimate test is when the person in question is asked to give up something.
Stop doing ceremonies, stop charging, stop working with other frauds....
When the reluctance of giving up money and power is larger than the wish to make a change, then you know without a doubt what kind of person you´re dealing with.
Medicinepeople give up everything for their people. That´s the difference.
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The ultimate test is when the person in question is asked to give up something.
Stop doing ceremonies, stop charging, stop working with other frauds....
When the reluctance of giving up money and power is larger than the wish to make a change, then you know without a doubt what kind of person you´re dealing with.
Medicinepeople give up everything for their people. That´s the difference.
Well said!