NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: rhiannon02 on March 05, 2009, 01:11:10 am
-
I joined this group to show my outrage at the narrow-mindedness of some of the posts that I read. However, after reading more I thought that maybe those with more knowledge could explain if a "non-native" has a chance EVER to partake in ceremonies - even when invited, as I've read many say that's not good enough either.
First, let me tell you a little about myself. I am a mutt. I have no idea who I am besides German, English, Irish and native - but the nation we only have stories to go on which say Shawnee. I live in Indiana, which I read that OK shawnee have issue with IN shawnee tribe that seemed to be trying to reclaim a heritage in our own land. I vaguely remember someone mentioning another tribe also, but Shawnee is the predominant one. We cannot trace our ancestry because after four generations for me, there is no record on my papaw's side. My aunt went and traced as far as she could at the time to try and get a grant for college for native blood; however, our history is lost. On top of blood and stories from family, my aunt had a Cherokee man come to the bar that she was working at and he asked her what tribe she was. She told of the story of being Shawnee. He rubbed her nose bone and said, yes that's a Shawnee nose. I sat at a bar when I was of age and got called out by an obnoxious man hollaring, "Hey, injun." This went on and on that night.
From my understanding of most the posts that I read on this site, I would not be welcome to ever do anything in a ceremony as I am not native. In my life, I have met more native souls who were of 100% white blood and 100% natives who had nothing of a native soul. My questions and information that I would like is how does a non-native or non-card carrying person - who doesn't live near or in the areas of the reservations - make it in the world of trying to learn their heritage and gain respect when many's minds and hearts are already closed as they only see an outsider. I would like to learn to become a dancer or something to participate in ceremonies, but reading here gives the impression that this is out for me and/or my daughter.
-
Wow. OK... all of these questions are already answered on the main page of the website, as well as in the various threads about People of Distant Indian Ancestry and For those with recently-discovered Indian ancestry.
If you are not part of a living, real, in-person Native community, it's not your religion and you have no "right" to any ceremonies or dances. If you think you are Shawnee, it's up to a living community of actual Shawnee people to say whether you are or are not part of their community (not up to some stranger you meet in a bar). And it's up to the legitimate ceremonial people of that Nation to say whether or not they would welcome you at any ceremonies.
... I am not native. In my life, I have met more native souls who were of 100% white blood and 100% natives who had nothing of a native soul.
... Do you have any idea how insulting that is to the Native people here?
How on Earth would you even know what a "native soul" is?
-
heya kathryn .. lol .. you sure you do not want to rub her nose bone to find out for SURE if she is ndn?????
-
Heh, no thanks. I don't go to bars. Though I guess I could ask why she's using a Welsh name ;)
-
oh, you can only rub nose bones in bars! .. well that leaves me out too then .. .. .. lol .. yeah i noticed the name too ..
-
It's from that other Stevie Nicks song, "Blame it on my native soul..."
-
Beats the shovel teeth theory
-
Rhiannon, you have some valid questions that merit answers, but I think the attitude is the biggest obstacle to reconnecting. My recommendation is to spend about 6 months reading through this site and see if your perspective changes.
PS Tachia and Kathryn, I have shovel teeth and some Welsh ancestry, can you give me a Welsh name and teach me to talk to trees? Oh, wait, I already do that.... ;D
-
WH ... rubbing someones nose bone is weird enough, i am not rubbing shovel teeth .. no way! .. eewww .. .. .. lol
btw, valid questions? .. which ones? .. maybe i did not see them .. i am still trying to get past basing ones proof of being ndn on some bar room nose bone rubbing and a drunk yelling "hey injun" .. that and the oft used crap of picking a tribe, any tribe, that happens to have once inhabited, or still does, the state the wannabe was born and raised in .. coupled with the token "auntie" that tried to prove she was ndn so she could get a grant for college .. geeesh ..
my suggestion to this poor creature would be that she try this BS with her supposed german, irish or english supposed relatives and see how far she gets .. can some drunk in a bar tell if a person is german, irish or english by rubbing their nose bone? .. does it make someone german, irish or english when some drunk in a bar yells hey: "kraut", "mick" or "wanker" to them? .. maybe this poor besotted creature does not even know that "injun" IS a racial slur, and that similar racial slurs for other peoples even exist? (ps, sorry for using examples, just making a point, no offense intended to germans, english or irish!!!!) ..
her post is so ignorant, rude, disrespectful and downright silly that i see nothing valid in it .. ..
-
Well i am always giving people the benefit of the doubt....maybe that is why my shovel teeth are always being kicked in :-\ I guess the valid question was whether it was possible for people of some possible Indian ancestry to reconnect with their ancestral people.....my answer is provisionally yes, but the right attitude goes a long way and the wrong attitude will make them send you away :o
-
Gah - where to start? Thanks for the ummm, welcome?
I didn't realize I showed any disrespect, I guess by pointing out that just having native blood doesn't mean the person cares about tradition or teaching or respect. Ummm, the nose thing was just being honest, my aunt was a bartender in a suave restaurant. This guy always came in and chat with her after his job. I have no idea of its origin - just the story. Having no record of ancestral name or anything else before my great great grandfather has always aggrevated me and led down dead end paths every time that we seek. I have found where DNA tests are available now but these still cannot show tribal lineage the last that I checked - merely whether or not one has native blood. Well, whoop it tee doo, I made it that far on my own was my thinking for this as it is so expensive. I apologize for ummm, whatever I need apologizing for I guess - as I see little here that needs apologizing for. If I come off as abrasive, that's me - only saying what needs said, no flowery language aside from that - and in the internet reality intentions aren't put forth with the print so take it as you will, as I have taken the comments that I have read in most the threads that I've read to date in the same fashion - thus my first sentence. You see, regardless of heritage or background - I have always been taught if I don't like or approve of something to let it lie. Live and let live and walk away with respect. Name calling and condescension go nowhere. The name? We're bickering about a username, for real? I have been invited to a few things on occassion, but was hoping to find out more from groups of my own background or just take these a little further in the future perhaps. Looks like I barked up the wrong tree.
As far as some of these other things, I must leave them lie as disrespect has no place to be turned back with more of the same.
-
"My aunt went and traced as far as she could at the time to try and get a grant for college for native blood"
You don't see your aunt's attempt to get a scholarship obviously not intended for her as disrespectful? You don't suppose that money could have been better used to, say, put a Native kid in a Native culture through med school so s/he could help his/er people? It isn't cheating?
It also seems disrespectful of you to waltz in, declare your outrage, and ask for the secret password to Native ceremonies because you'd like to dance in them even though you live nowhere near any Native nations. I mean, I'd like some crackers. I'm nowhere near the Vatican, but could you tell me if there's a chance of my EVER becoming Catholic so I can get that dude in the big hat to come visit me and lay one of those wafers on my tongue?
Some things can't be taught long-distance. Many things, when "taught" ripped free of their cultural context, become perverse, prostituted parodies of themselves. This isn't something someone thought up to deny you of something. It just is.
-
Rhiannon: Where to start? Forgive me if I am wrong, but the way that you write suggests that you are young and female. It is an admirable fact that you as do others want to know more about your ancestors. I would suggest that you research all of your lines. Start with your European first know all that you can find out. With your Native American lines go by the areas that your family resided in. Yes, due to removal and passing this may be lost if so there is nothing that can be done about it in this life. Do some self examination. Try to discover why you may feel a need to identify with being Native American. Be very truthful with yourself. As far as ceremony is concerned It is up to the Tribe whether or not you can participate and all tribes have their own criteria as to this. Go to some of the Native communities listen and learn their tradition emphasis on listen. Being quiet and showing respect goes a long way in being accepted. Do work freely for the Elders and the people. This shows that you are serious and not just a Wannabe. Read here and on other forums all you can about the way Native Americans who were raised in their culture feel about things. Remember that for those of us that were raised in a white culture no matter what our Blood Quantum to reconnect is a very difficult but not necessarily an impossible task. I have been working toward this goal for over two decades and among some I am accepted even though my skin is so white that I blister under a 100 watt light bulb. Remember that the history of the interaction between the Native American and the european does not foster immediate trust. This must grow with time spent with them and personal commitment on your part. Welcome to the journey it will take a life time.. I am with respect and honor to all "LittleOldMan"
-
I joined this group to show my outrage at the narrow-mindedness of some of the posts that I read. However, after reading more I thought that maybe those with more knowledge could explain if a "non-native" has a chance EVER to partake in ceremonies - even when invited, as I've read many say that's not good enough either.
First, let me tell you a little about myself. I am a mutt. I have no idea who I am besides German, English, Irish and native - but the nation we only have stories to go on which say Shawnee. I live in Indiana, which I read that OK shawnee have issue with IN shawnee tribe that seemed to be trying to reclaim a heritage in our own land. I vaguely remember someone mentioning another tribe also, but Shawnee is the predominant one. We cannot trace our ancestry because after four generations for me, there is no record on my papaw's side. My aunt went and traced as far as she could at the time to try and get a grant for college for native blood; however, our history is lost. On top of blood and stories from family, my aunt had a Cherokee man come to the bar that she was working at and he asked her what tribe she was. She told of the story of being Shawnee. He rubbed her nose bone and said, yes that's a Shawnee nose. I sat at a bar when I was of age and got called out by an obnoxious man hollaring, "Hey, injun." This went on and on that night.
From my understanding of most the posts that I read on this site, I would not be welcome to ever do anything in a ceremony as I am not native. In my life, I have met more native souls who were of 100% white blood and 100% natives who had nothing of a native soul. My questions and information that I would like is how does a non-native or non-card carrying person - who doesn't live near or in the areas of the reservations - make it in the world of trying to learn their heritage and gain respect when many's minds and hearts are already closed as they only see an outsider. I would like to learn to become a dancer or something to participate in ceremonies, but reading here gives the impression that this is out for me and/or my daughter.
Hi Rhiannon
I think you're biggest issue isn't necessarily with anyone here, but with yourself. You're trying to find yourself. In one breath you exasperate about how you perceive people thinking that a "non-Native" would never be able to participate in any ceremonies. In the next breath you're talking about your native ancestry.
I don't doubt you're in a difficult place, but first let me say non-Indians participate in tribal events and ceremonies all the time. This happens because of active involvement in some capacity with a family who is part of a Native community or active involvement with the community themselves. Many tribes consider their ways sacred and to mess with them means bringing danger or other harmful forces around, so there's an element of trust that MUST be built before you are invited to be part of that community and participate in their spirituality. There is no prosthelytizing as in Christian religions....it's just not that open. If you think about it in the historical sense...accepting someone from outside as part of the community means another mouth to feed and other considerations. It's not taken lightly.
You would be coming into your ways as a child. When I say that I mean you're starting from scratch...just like kids do. Growing up in your life you've obviously not had your entire family group around you to teach you how to be...teach you your language...teach you how you take a role and contribute to your family group or community. So you're an adult who would be starting from a clean slate and has a LOT to learn. Just to be real with you....it could be YEARS (maybe as much as 15...who knows, can't predict that) before a community accepts you enough to teach you their ways. That's years of active involvement with them....being one of them. So ask yourself....are you ready to commit to that....are you ready to give up the things you've been taught from the family you DO know?? Those are very real considerations.
Being Native isn't being part of a cool club and taking advantage of government programs....let me just tell you...those programs are underfunded and smeared in bureaucracy so the actual monies intended to help communities in the end don't go there. This leaves many Native communities in poor...occasionally third world conditions...for those poorest communities, the ONLY thing that keeps them afloat are the people there that still hold on to their spiritual ways. Sometimes those people are hard to find as well, but it's their sacrifice that keeps the community from folding completely. Dancing at pow-wows is a very very small part of the whole equation...not to mention the Shawnee people don't traditionally participate in pow-wow dancing. Those ways come from other tribes and to learn those ways you'll have to participate in a community that follows that path as well. Pow-wow dancers from outside those communities (if they do it right) are brought into the pow-wow circle in full view of the entire community under the guidance of a family that have taken them in. That family usually dresses them and speaks for them so that everyone recognizes that they are a dancer. It's not just buying an outfit and jumping out and dancing.
I'm gonna agree with you Rhiannon that Native blood isn't a qualification for all things Native. You're right that there are full blood Indians who could care less about their community and run away from their identity. They have their reasons....and sometimes it's not pretty, but when you hear their whole story...sometimes you can understand. We're all just human beings and we all make mistakes. But for those people, their soul is still 100% Native. That's why they struggle....they try to run away from their true selfs....so as far as judging who's soul is Native and who's isn't...I really gotta wonder where you've learned you're able to do that. That line seems more like a justification based out of insecurity....it's the exact thing someone says when they're trying to bring a person down to what they perceive to be their own level.
So maybe a little self-inspection is needed on your part. Why are you struggling? Why do you expect immediate gratification for something you want? Why do you do you see yourself down below others and attempt to shoot them down to your level with judgments?
If you answer all those questions for yourself you may see how your motivations have led you away from being part of a community and only led you to being a part of a community of yourself. From your own words I've only read very selfish reasons for taking part in "ceremonies" (and even there...what are you trying take part in specifically). I haven't read what you would do for your community if you were able to pin down what tribe you're from and began interaction with them. Community involvement and communal spirituality are not about the self....they're about the good of everyone involved. It's also a commitment that you have to make for life. If your'e gonna be identified as part of your tribe then you have be that way 100% of the time. The people in that community don't get a choice, but you do have a choice...so the only way you bond there is to make only 1 choice...that's to be part of them. It isn't easy. Indian communities are full of their own brands of problems and you would have to 100% be willing to take the bad with the good.
After doing all that and showing all that you may find the acceptance that you're looking for. Anything else is a shortcut (i.e. paying for ceremonies, joining fake tribes, etc) and shortcuts leave you immediately gratified, but empty inside. It's kind of like the saying about Chinese food....you'll be hungry very shortly later. So to take the shortcuts means you're gonna be on this search forever....
Don't sell yourself short Rhiannon. If this is what you really want then do the work and you'll find it.
Superdog
-
Hello Rhiannon and welcome.
I would like to start with the simple fact that your first post is offensive.your secound post wasn`t much better.
here in northern Indiana over in Fort wayne there is the # 2 Library IN the COUNTRY for Geneology,there are many Tribal rolls, access to census,birth,death,military,Info,land plat Maps,do your own research there are employees there that can help you ok, help yourself,don`t expect others to do it for you.
Becarefull of the Dna Tests they are not a 100 percent accurate{ FALSE POSITIVES -FALSE NEGETIVES }i am not an expert here .example = if you have a group of native and non native people and they get the DNA TESTING done there is a chance a non-native will show up as having native DNA and there is a chance a native will show up as non-native.AND if you have the DNA test I would suggest that you don`t go around claiming to be native because you had the test,you will more than likely catch hell again.all this stuff about teeth,hair ,nose`s,eyes doesn`t make you native.little old man gave you some good advice.
-
Hello Rhiannon
I had wanted to post some of my thoughts earlier - but Super Dog and LittleOldMan said most of what I wanted to say - and better than I could.
Just let me add - that I see many "non-Indian" people at ceremonies - but as already stated it is because they have seriously invested in, committed themselves to that community. I know one Dutch man that assists in a Sun Dance every summer. He also sends his adopted family money to help them every month, travels there when ever he is needed, and is absolutely part of the family and community. Its all about responsibility. There are NO rights without first knowing and fulfilling the responsibilities.
If you study American Indian languages one of the most remarkable things is that many do not have personal pronouns. No: I, me, my, mine, etc. There are only: we, our, ours. This is important because it shows how important community is. The names most American Indian Nations called themselves prior to colonization usually translates as some version of “we are the people who… or, we are the people of…” ie: Community is everything.
A really good rule to remember (also already stated) is that there should never a "the" attached to the word "Indian." According to David Hurst Thomas, there is more diversity within the American Indians groups of North American than in all the other groups together that make up the US and Canada. With AI communities, One size does not fit all Indians - ever!
When I was teaching Introduction to Native American Studies I did a little quiz to start the class and one of the questions was: "List 5 things you think you know about American Indians. (don't worry about offending me)"
Now this is in a state where 99.9% of the diversity is Native American and the same untruths showed up every semester. Just as a side note they were, 1. Most Indians are alcoholics, 2. all Indians get a free college education, 3. all Indians get a new car and $1,500. a month from the US government when they turn 21, 4. Indians don't pay taxes, 5. Indians were "given" their reservations by the US government. I always enjoyed this little exercise, since it gave me a chance to prove through documentation what incredible lies all of these myths are and once that was out of the way we could get on with real learning.
I really understand the expenses of college and why someone would try to get a little extra funding, However, for those of us who struggled to survive while getting a degree (I went to college as a single parent, with two children, worked two jobs, graduated Summa Cum Laude, and 15 years later am still paying for my college loans.) it is very hurtful that so many people only want to be part of their Indian heritage if they think it will get them something. Most money that is available to Indian students is through Pell Grants and LOANS.(that have to be paid back) There were Indian fee waivers and special monies offered, but the requirements were so outlandish few ever applied for them. NO other grant was tied to as high a 2.8 GPA, documentation of extreme financial need, and quarterly re-evaluations including having to turn over Social security information to prove what money you made and what your expenses were, what kind of car you drove, etc. And still there were state congressmen that said the fee waiver should be eliminated since "the Indians" would just spent their money on getting drunk. (Guess they couldn't understand that these were fee waivers - not money in hand)
DNA – well…ok – where to even start - I do work with DNA and the bottom line is that it really does not matter what your mtDNA indicates – that still does not situate you within a living breathing interactive community. The Human Genome Project is so controversial in many Indian communities that stating that you have paid to have the testing done (not inexpensive) will only generate more animosity, not acceptance. Its no better than your ubiquitous shovel-shaped incisors (although I still love mine :-D) Looks are just looks. They do not link you to a community.
I know I am beating this to death, but identity and ceremony is absolutely about participation and responsibility to a community. Because of removal of children from homes, termination policy and relocation policies there are many people who have been detached from their communities of origin and now are struggling and searching as you seem to be. Many of those who are enrolled, but do not live in the community often face extreme hostility and resentment when they try to go home. This is the colonial legacy, but many communities are working on the issue and we all hope that there will be a brighter future for our kids and grandkids.
If you should decide that you want to try to find your community of origin and give something of yourself to them, I would suggest the absolute best place to start is in the genealogy archives of the Church of Latter Day Saints in Salt Lake City, Utah, and you do not have to be a member to use the archives. They are accessed and used by people world wide
-
Hey from another mystery mutt.
Try http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=79.0 for reading suggestions if you like, some good recommends in there.
--Scott B.
-
rhiannon
you got some good answers in here .. question is .. will you pay attention to them .. ..
one thing no one mentioned that you need to realize .. that would explain a lot about our exchanges with you .. .. while we may be the first ndn's that you have asked your questions of, and told your stories to .. .. you certainly are NOT the first person that we have heard say these very things! .. after a while we just get sick of it .. sick of hearing the same sort of "stories", the same old bs, told with the same sense of entitlement, the same anger, resentment and ignorance, etc .. .. everyone and their dog now wants to be ndn .. why? .. truthfully, you would not last one day on any rez with your attitude, and probably would not last a week even if you changed your attitude .. it is not easy being ndn, it is not a game, etc .. .. ah well .. ..
-
everyone and their dog now wants to be ndn .. why?
Because they think it's all Dances with Wolves, and they have no idea what modern NDN life is actually like. And then if they realize that NDNs are normal people, not something out of an historical re-enactment, they assume real NDNs are "not really Indian" and that the white pretendians have "Indian souls" because they're playing dress up and lost in fantasies. It's a total disconnect from reality.
-
I am writing in humble thanks for the respect of an honest response and lessons to LittleOldMan, Superdog, bullhead and kosowith. I would like to address your main points, yet be as brief as I can.
LittleOldMan – I am female, however, age is relative. I feel that I may be young to you but am no longer a wild, naïve young lady either. In my native heritage, however, yes - I am a very young child. That is when I sort of turned my back to it- the native heritage (long story that doesn’t belong here) and “grew up” for lack of better expression. To the responses for you and Superdog, I’ll try to get through this without crying as I can feel that young child wanting me to return. I have researched my ancestry a bit, along with others in our family. The German is very easy as three generations ago, my great grandparents came on a ship and there is documentation. We have a family will from ages back from Germany as well to know that in a small village there - an uncle was quite important because he had four goats and had a will. I don’t remember the details on the translation of this – the original hangs in my parents’ office, but the gist was that at his time he was really important, not like a Count or Barron important, but he had his own livestock which made him really something it seems. I find great giggles in this today seeing how much things have changed for that side of my family and the country as a whole. The English, and a bit lucky with finding some of the Irish heritage, also not much of a problem. There was documentation, even some type of number assigned in NY to my first English ancestor here. There are also huge gaps though after this great-great grandfather moved west. There was a wife that didn’t even have a first name given on the U.S. census record that I found. It just listed her husband’s last name, female, wife and approximate age. There are many of these gaps. I will try the source’s that have been listed here; however, I don’t know how much luck I will have. The story that was told to me, and also to my aunts and uncles - that would listen, was that the English came, they started messing with the Natives (not called that by this person) and there we came – as if either before the removal from their land or who knows what. It’s funny to see some here mention that what I said about my experience was a racist slur. We knew this - as that’s why I think his story was told with such disdain – maybe a bit too many racial slurs cast his way long before my first. He loved the ways that he learned it seemed to me, as he lived off the land, told what stories that he knew – so VERY, VERY few and VERY simplistically all of his life, but there seemed to be a pain or sadness there too. As I grew up feeling a bit lost in myself – like not complete – and being judged many times, I wondered what my aunts and uncles and even before them must have went through. I came to figure that this is why he told the story with a touch of disgust. I don’t know how admirable the undertaking is, as it has always seemed a daunting and pretty impossible task since my understanding is that my direct native ancestors never made it as far west as a reservation, but look forward to trying to learn more now. I remember when I was very young I wanted to go and spend time learning the language and basic teachings just to know who we were, but I didn’t know where to start then either so I just turned it off. I have read a lot in the last year or so, when the real calling came back, and continue to do so. I began going to pow-wows but feel the two that I’ve really attended felt a bit too commercialized. There was a group of dancers that were hired from out west though, that I wondered how to be able to ever talk to someone for real like that for lack of good expression there. The head guy in charge had that feel to him also, but he didn’t even come off as very approachable – especially in the heat and business of the days. I’ve never approached because, regardless of the impression formed here, I don’t just go and start speaking, as I have nothing to add to them at first approach. I do not feel a right to be included. I want to and am willing as that’s part of the learning. If people closer to the tribal origins of my own do not do this, OK. It’s funny I have a few dear friends on a rez, but such a far removed tribe from any of my origins. Point being, I get to learn and receive a great deal from them. I was just wanting to expand my search to include the lineage for my own family to be able to share with my daughter so that when she thinks why do I not care about that thing the way others do or why …. – she’ll be able to understand her entire being more, not just parts of a puzzle with many blanks yet to fill. Sorry that got a little long, but that takes care of some of the others’ responses also.
Superdog – I’ve already answered much of this above. In short, sure, I totally agree that I’m trying to find myself. I also feel though that it’s more than this, I’m trying to be able to make use of myself on my path. This seems to me to have to have more of those blanks filled in on the whole me. I’ve lived enough and through enough to know fully who I am and what values are mine; thus, the attitude that to many seems disrespectful. I didn’t come in asking for as Laurel put it – the secret password, or that anyone take me underwing and teach me these things. Thus, I didn’t come in offering anything with my head a hanging. I merely wanted to know if I partake in the journey will I ever be able to participate aside from these sellable shows that I’ve been to already and where to begin this journey. Many have spoken and to you all I give thanks. I know enough and am sure enough in myself to know that I bow to no one. Coming into my ways as a child – that’s precious. I feel like now though I’m the old lady that has been completely swept back into being 6, running through the field with my little drum and playing with my “friends” – none of which were really there to anyone besides me. I grew up and turned my back on these “friends” and for some reason, I hear them calling again and feel their tugs to return. I am up for the work, commitment, etc. I’ve felt outside most of my life so trying to learn and gain acceptance and feeling outside would be nothing new; however, the big hindrance is that there is NO real native community where I live. There used to be a N.A. AA program in a town about an hour or so from me many years ago. I don’t know if this is still together or not. Aside from that, finding a “community” to become involved in is virtually nil aside from fakes and wannabes also. Thus my question posted here. My other big factor is could I move to where a community is? Sure, someday perhaps. My child is the most precious thing and I can’t uproot her from family and all she knows here to go and “find myself”. Should have done that in the first 40 years or more then.
Bullhead – thank you much for the information. This will be the first place that I begin my new search.
Kosowith – your post was extremely thoughtful. Huge thanks to you, also for the free lessons. I had no idea that natives didn’t get a free education and in the form of Pell grants at that. As a fellow working single parent through school, until post-grad work, the expenses are enormous and Pell grants are virtually nothing. I was only a child when my aunt began her search for this funding, but if I’m remembering the scenario correctly, a financial or guidance counselor suggested to her that she do this – not like she went looking to take something from someone that needed it worse than she, as she wound up dropping anyways. Point is I didn’t know this and from what I vaguely remember of it all when she was having trouble financing, someone at the school mentioned it. Therefore, she most likely didn’t know this either. We –the entire family – are not people who are out looking for anything. We’ve lived with enough animosity from others that we were and are not looking at our roots for something of a fad, as it’s not a cool label or fad so it seems counter-intuitive that anyone would even go there other than from the financial gains to be had on the spirit side if they write a book or whatever. I’m sorry that my posts come across as disrespectful, especially to the point where people are saying that I have no right for anything and am asking for a password. I’ve re-read my posts several times, I see nowhere in either of them where I ask for anything nor say that it’s my right, but from this being my first impression to you being as such - I would like to offer a thank you for still taking the time for such a great, honest, respectful and informative response.
Scott and wh – thanks for the welcome and thanks for the link Scott. Off to amazon.
This is a question that I have been wondering in the last month or so nosing through the articles and posts on here and seeing so many using NDN and other terms for indians. Isn’t the use of the word Indian disrespectful in itself – as natives aren’t Indians and that was the whites’ term for them? That’s the mindset of those that I’ve met around my area. I welcome any responses done in respectful fashion.
Also, to the first responses that I received. No matter what disrespect many here have taken from me, I have apologized twice if you took it personally or as I was trying to take something from you. However, the disrespect was never directed at you personally nor your families such as the token auntie crack. She is an Aunt not an "auntie"! I was going to let this go, but I cannot and should not. This was VERY disrespectful and would appreciate such comments just being handed over to earth or sky to take and not to burden me, your or anyone else here reading with comments as such. Thank you.
-
Dear Rhiannon,
Thank you for telling us a bit more about you. I didn’t think you meant to be disrespectful, it was my personally impression that you just didn’t know the reality of the situation and were a victim of the same stereotypes that haunt all of us. Not living in an Indian community you can not know that some of these things may have completely different interpretations to what they do outside the community. There are so still so many misconceptions and negative stereotypes about Indian people. Hollywood really did its myth making job well.
BTW - Today the number one incorrect stereotype is that all Indian nations have profitable casinos and all Indians are rich. I wish!. These days I could really use the money. Someone out there still has my new car and monthy per-caps that they also think we get. Only a VERY small percentage of the federally recognized Indian nations have profitable casinos, and with the hard economic times some of them are losing ground.
And as to a guidance counselor telling your aunt to look for Indian money, it does not surprise me. I was given a list that included a Jewish organization because I was listed as a “minority student” in the computer and to the financial aid guy – we were all the same – “Non-white.” Of course my advisor told me he didn’t have time to help me plan my classes, as the only reason an Indian woman would go to college is to try to trap a white husband. Unfortunately all the one I trapped were useless and I had to throw them back. (just joking)
I’m going to throw some more stuff out there for you. I hope you don’t mind. I’m an educator and I would rather educate someone who has questions than chase them away.
First off – is the term Indian incorrect, offensive, acceptable, unforgivable, or just plain wrong? Well, yes and/or no – that depends entirely who you talk to and where. I grew up calling myself an “Indian” when I was outside my community. In the Northern Plains everyone I knew used the term, Indians. Of course it is based on a lost idiot’s misnomer. As everyone knows Columbus thought he was at the mouth of the River Ganges along the Indus, so he called the people he encountered “Indians” It was carried into the north and we all ended up being “Indians.” Around the 1950s and 1960s, as more people from India and Indios from Central and South America immigrated to the US the terms American Indians and North American Indians gained popularity. In the 1980s especially in academia Native American became the term of choice, at least for some. In Canada Indian is not preferred and they tend to use First Nations or First Peoples. Internationally, according to the United Nations and international law – the term of preferred use is “Indigenous peoples” and don’t forget that it is plural. The indigenous peoples working groups debated for 15 years over singular “people” or plural “peoples”(plural won) in the Declaration. So the bottom line is, every one of these terms had inherent problems. Everyone is wrong is some way, but is accepted by some Indian people. If you wish to be absolutely correct, you would have to know the name of the particular person’s nation, in that language. For example – Cheyenne did not call themselves “Cheyenne” before white contact. They would have said (and at Lame Deer still do say) a variation of Tsistsistas (there are several variations in spelling) The Crow say Apsáalooke, Blackfeet say Pikuni, Peigan Kainai, or Siksika. All of these names tell a story of a community and the relationships between its members. Most are some variation of where they came from. At the end of the day – there is no consensus. So this is one you just can’t win every time. There is a good chance that no matter what you say someone with wounded soul will be offended. You just have to be ready to say, I don’t know what you prefer. Sorry.
It is a sad fact, but Indian communities have a lot of people who are wounded and have been for generations. And being wounded many tend to strike out. I find I some times jump at an imagined offence when none was meant. For me, it has taken a long time to get used to having at least one person at any lecture I give tell me that they have an Indian princess in their family, or that they were an Indian in a former life. It took me one very, very brief step toward a very low level of tribal politics to see that I personally do NOT have a thick enough skin to deal with it. No, not, never!
Pow wows – Well there is a wide variety of those too. If you ever get the chance do try to go to a small non-competition event. They are wonderful. Big ones, especially ones like Denver March, Gathering of Nations, Red Earth, etc. tend to be more commercial, but then if there are not lots of vendors, we complain about that too – or I do. Its like my dad always said to tease my auntie who was a waitress. This food was the worst I’ve ever eaten and there wasn’t nearly enough of it.
That brings up another issue. I’m not sure what your comment about “aunt” versus auntie” was in reference to, but in every Indian community I know of, the term “auntie” is meant as an real honor and used with absolute respect. Many kids I am not related to “biologically” call me auntie and I act as an teacher to them as a responsibility to that term. In the old days children were taught and were more the responsibility of aunties and uncles than parents. There was less tension that way.
Back to pow wows just for a minute, where I am from, pow wows are a social gathering. They are not sacred, although if the pow wow arena is blessed it is sacred and to be respected.
A good MC will tell non-Indian visitors a lot about the traditions, when they can take pictures, when they can’t, when you can copy songs, when you can not, when to stand, etc. If they say “Inter-tribal” then everyone can dance. This is your chance to join in. If you have a shawl, it is good to wrap it around your shoulders but DO join in – just don’t “free form dance” I see a lot of non-Indians doing some sort of interpretive dance that is not anything “native” It does get a lot of laughs, but to avoid that just find a traditional woman about your age and follow what she does. Its better to not try fancy shawl or jingle without regalia.
Participation in ceremony – there are many ways to “participate” and many of those are open to you as a guest at a ceremony. For just about every ceremony there have to be people who cook for the feast, clean up, run errands, and just add their prayers and support. Even for people born and raised in Indian communities not everyone fasts, sweats, quests, Sun Dances, Stomps, or does any other ceremony.
Some other basic facts. Historically – As Indian homelands were invaded treaties were signed and usually broken by the White people, within days of the signing. Peaceful villages like those of Black Kettle and White Antelope were attacked and slaughtered and mutilated. Lands were whittled away and people starved or froze to death when blankets were never delivered. After the Indian wars were declared over, all things Indian were outlawed. Language, dress, customs were forbidden. (1880s) Ceremonies that were maintained had to done in secret. It is amazing that anything is left, and this is part of the reason so many Indian people get so upset when non-Indians now want to take these cherished ceremonies and twist them to their own devises. By 1879-1950 Indian children as young as 4 were removed from families and sent far away from family to sever any family ties. The policy was “to save the child you must kill the Indian.” This multi-generational trauma still haunts communities today.
Today American Indian people remain the poorest of the poor. On a national average, a family of 4 lives on less than 60% of what is considered poverty level. Indian reservations and inner-city communities have the highest rates of TB, cancer, diabetes (the highest rates of any ethnic group) heart disease. Until in the 1980s it was not unusual for an Indian woman seeking gynecological care at a Indian Health Service to be sterilized without her consent. (this was also done to poor women of all colors) Children were forcibly removed from families and adopted to non-tribal families. It seems that every time Indian people tried to take a step forward they were knocked three feet back. As Red Could said, “the white man made us many promises, but he only ever kept one. He promised to take our land and he took it.”
I guess I am just rambling here, and avoiding working on an very overdue chapter of a book that I am struggling with. I hope you don’t mind this clarification of your questions and history lesson. I apologize for any redundancy if you already knew all this.
-
Kosowith,
I would like to thank you for one of the above post. It is one of the best short explanations of what it is to be an American Indian I have seen. I will ink several folks I know to it as I am tired of arguing with them.
Many of the things you said I learned many many years ago living in South Dakota.
It has been almost 40 years and names have faded but Uncle and Auntie still will bring a smile and a remembrance of a special person. I was not a hippie searching for myself, I was a veteran trying to find myself after being lost to a very unpopular war. For a California boy a ranch in S Dak and later 2yrs at Homestake mine gave me the place and the means to meet many fine folks from the area. My first wife although white was a Rapid gulch local who ran with the folks from PineRidge.
I have Grand children who still live there and it saddens me to here that not much has changed in the attitudes of ignorant people concerning the people who were there first.
I have always laughed at the term Native American as any one born from Hudson bay to the tip of South America is a " native American". I also find it quite arrogant for folks to take " American" to mean you are from the United States. That, is a misnomer.
Thank you again for that post.
Grumpyoldman
-
Superdog – I’ve already answered much of this above. In short, sure, I totally agree that I’m trying to find myself. I also feel though that it’s more than this, I’m trying to be able to make use of myself on my path. This seems to me to have to have more of those blanks filled in on the whole me. I’ve lived enough and through enough to know fully who I am and what values are mine; thus, the attitude that to many seems disrespectful. I didn’t come in asking for as Laurel put it – the secret password, or that anyone take me underwing and teach me these things. Thus, I didn’t come in offering anything with my head a hanging. I merely wanted to know if I partake in the journey will I ever be able to participate aside from these sellable shows that I’ve been to already and where to begin this journey. Many have spoken and to you all I give thanks. I know enough and am sure enough in myself to know that I bow to no one. Coming into my ways as a child – that’s precious. I feel like now though I’m the old lady that has been completely swept back into being 6, running through the field with my little drum and playing with my “friends” – none of which were really there to anyone besides me. I grew up and turned my back on these “friends” and for some reason, I hear them calling again and feel their tugs to return. I am up for the work, commitment, etc. I’ve felt outside most of my life so trying to learn and gain acceptance and feeling outside would be nothing new; however, the big hindrance is that there is NO real native community where I live. There used to be a N.A. AA program in a town about an hour or so from me many years ago. I don’t know if this is still together or not. Aside from that, finding a “community” to become involved in is virtually nil aside from fakes and wannabes also. Thus my question posted here. My other big factor is could I move to where a community is? Sure, someday perhaps. My child is the most precious thing and I can’t uproot her from family and all she knows here to go and “find myself”. Should have done that in the first 40 years or more then.
I'm glad that you got most of what I was talking about as for the beginning as a child comment. Don't take offense to that as it wasn't meant to be offensive. It's just a way of putting it. I just mean that you are starting from the beginning and you have to come at it with the attitude of openness and willingness to learn....humble and in realization of your innocence like when we were all kids and someone was teaching you to tie your laces or brush your teeth. It's just an observation from your writings that you are a little on the abrasive side and it's not gonna help you when trying to make relationships and bonds with good people who would be willing to help you. It's not the imagery that you suggest (running through the fields beating a drum...which, btw is a little on the romantic side...i've never done that and I've been a singer all my life) and I didn't mean it as such. I'm not talking down to you, I'm relating these things as I've learned them and doing my best to be as real as possible with you....maybe it wasn't what you wanted to read, but which would you rather have...
I wish you nothing but good luck in your journey. My intention is try and keep you on a productive path in it. The warning about shortcuts is real...it won't serve you so never get desperate. Every day is something to learn and I live by that too. Even in our communication I get that I said things that could've been said better, so I acknowledge it to you and I will do better.
Superdog
-
Hey everyone what a great job you haver done explaining. My hat off to you all.
There are no easy answers and there are no easy ways.
The ceremonies belong to the Nation of people who have always lived
it and died for it.
The white culture is different from us in the way we think that we end up
with cultural difference. i person who grew up total in the american culture
will make many mistakes. They will come and offend our elders and our people
and not know that they did anything.
I do genealogy for my people and it is easy you just have to take the time todo
it.