NAFPS Forum
General => Member Introductions => Topic started by: Jason on March 02, 2007, 08:44:13 pm
-
I stumbled across this site quite by accident and have found it interesting. Can I ask you something please?
You are all spending a great deal of time searching out the frauds, is this the purpose of this site?
Having found them and doing all this hard work, who are you informing about them?
What are you doing with all this knowledge?
-
Take a look at the individual threads. Many were started by members of the public joining to request information because they feared they or someone they knew were being taken advantage of. The information is going exactly where it was wanted or needed most, to possible victims.
This is also a public and open archive. Anyone can see the information or come here and search for it. That's part of why we get used as a resource by university and museum scholars and activist groups.
In many cases we contact tribal offices either seeking information (which we pass on to the public) or to let them know about a fraud and their activities. It's frustrating, in some cases, that the tribal govt has so few resources and so many other issues they don't respond.
If we see evidence that a crime is being committed, sexual abuse, violence, etc, we contact police or DAs.
Getting either cops or DAs to prosecute for fraud is much harder and has been discussed before in other threads.
-
It's frustrating, in some cases, that the tribal govt has so few resources and so many other issues they don't respond.
Getting either cops or DAs to prosecute for fraud is much harder and has been discussed before in other threads.
So the tribal govt are too busy to respond and the DAs won't bother prosecuting? What does that tell you???
-
Jason, maybe you should try reading the threads where this has already been well covered. You seem to be coming here with preconceived notions and a preformed agenda that I'm sure you'll begin to bore us with any moment.
"That" tells us some things that I thought were pretty obvious and most of us already know, police and DAs know very little about Natives, and tribal govts are often short on resources.
Many rez govts do respond and are very helpful in spite of few resources. For example, the Hopi Nation explicitly details all the frauds preying on them and the CNO now has a task force dealing with fake tribes and fake medicine people.
-
Hi Jason,
I am interested in your thoughts as to what you would do with all the frauds and fakes out there.
We have worked very hard on research and have done much with the information we obtain even making trips to the source of the fraud, reporting them to authorities and the task forces set up to deal with these fakes.
I am open to your suggestions as this seems to be your main concern here.
Wado Weheli
-
I am afraid that I don't have any suggestions and I was not being critical, I was just asking the question. I have a problem with dyslexia and that is why my postings might seem abrupt. I find it difficult to write long sentences so try and keep them short. Sorry.
Like you I am very concerned with all these things and I wondered if there was more we could do. It isn't good that the authorities don't do much. I will take educatedindian's advice and try and read all the threads and try not to bore him :-\ It will take me quite a while but I want to learn more about these frauds. >:(
-
Sorry Jason, that was rude of me. I expected a Nuager coming in here to lecture us about the 1st Amendment and say "but it feels right for me" repeatedly etc, which we've had happen in the past.
We're always looking for other ways to get this message out. If you do a search for Bernard Red Cherries, you'll see he wanted to try the approach of changing federal law to specifically protect Native beliefs from the frauds. Most NDNs are reluctant to have the feds as the arbiter of what Native beliefs are.
-
Most NDNs are reluctant to have the feds as the arbiter of what Native beliefs are.
It is hard to know who the arbiter could be. What options do you think there are?
What exactly is a nuager? You don't seem to like them and I see they are talked about a lot in the forum. OOOH! ;D I have just worked it out ;D My dyslexia has let me down again. The way you spell it I thought it was a french word. We can buy raincoats in the uk with this trade name but it is pronounced new-arge!!
Is a nuager the same in the US as in the UK? A sort of modern day hippie? Or is this a word to describe a fraud? This is a great site and I am learning a lot. ::)
-
Hi Jason,
So sorry about your dyslexia. I know what it means here in the US but perhaps it is different in the UK. Can you explain what dyslexia is?
You do very well at getting your points across, esp figuring out new-arge is not the same as new age. So pleased to have you on the forum.
Weheli ;)
-
We call them new age in the uk. This seems to mean different things to different people though. Some people describe them on forums as people who don't wash, wander around the country in camper vans and have alsation dogs on leads made of rope. They are also described as heavy drinkers and smokers of pot and certainly many of them have matted hair that appears unwashed and dirty.
Others describe a totally different sort of person but still call them new age. These other people are the type who don't really have a religion but buy lots of crystals and do a lot of meditation and stuff. Many of them have tarot cards and listen to chill out meditation music. Most of them work, especially in conservation for the earth. Quite a few are vegetarians and I have never met one who smoked.
I have met people like this and found them very friendly. I think this is why I asked what is a nuager to all of you as most times they are mentioned people say only bad things about them here. I even wondered if nuager was a swear word in the US ???
As for my dyslexia, thanks for asking weheli. I have a problem understanding the shapes and patterns of letters and words. I have always had it but I have got better over the years with private lessons. I am encouraged to read and write a lot and this helps me. On a forum such as this I type it out first in a Word document so that I can do a spell check and correct all the errors. Then I copy and paste it on this forum so it is not to bad. Mistakes do happen though but I am told most people still understand what I am trying to say so I should not give up.
-
There is a thread called "What is the New Age ?" which might help you understand why so many people posting here feel no respect for "New Age" beliefs .
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=756.0 (http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=756.0)
All too often , the New Ager belief system supports the assumption people have a right to use , out of context , whatever part of Native traditions look entertaining or "healing" .
To make an analogy it is kind of like walking into your neighbors house and helping yourself to their family photographs of their deceased loved one , to copy and use in a way the family finds disrespectful and completely offensive to their own beliefs .
If the people you know who are interested in New Age beliefs are respecting other peoples cultural integrity , and are also doing real work towards social justice , and sustainable living , I would honor them in that activity . Unfortunantly almost all the people I have known who are interested in New Age beliefs tend to rely on hoping for some miraculous rescue , imagining there is a rapidly approaching "consciousness shift" , "polar shift" , " intervention by star people" ect ect ect .
People who avoid reality , who don't do any hard work to solve real problems-except magical wishful thinking , people who lack committment to any particular moral stucture that would develop true Spiritual muscles , together with self indulgent assumptions of entitlement to possess whatever they imagine might enrich their life and lead to "healing", can be really really really really annoying when you have to interact with that over and over and over . I guess there is a good side to everything , but Gee I have a hard time not getting completely nauseated when I have to interact with people who repeatedly engage in the behavior described above . Yuck yuck yick yyyeeeachh
Sorry if these feelings sometimes seem unkind or rude .
-
I have reached out in dialog with new agers. I personally don't share in animosity towards New Agers however I do know some facts about them. They are Western or Westernized people that are seeking a new vision. For this reason I felt free to communicate with some of them. Many New Agers do what momma porcupine complains about. They take or borrow from our belief systems without authority or permission. What is worse is that they may get it wrong, lock, stock and barrel. Some, however sincerely attempt to learn.
Our beliefs come from a core, a knowing, even a being that is a continuum from the distant past through to the future. Our obligations are not only for the living but for our ancestors. By sharing or taking up the burden of knowledge or wisdom we feed not only present generations, but we feed our future generations and we feed our ancestors. Since this is not physical food but spiritual food there are no English words that convey many of our meanings. Hence our beliefs cannot be translated by writen language alone. Our beliefs must be handed down, reposited into the next generation by many ways. Most of those ways are fairly inclusive in person to person contact.
What Native Americans reject is the false transmission, false naming, false connectedness prevelent in New Age beliefs to connect with our people alive and ancestral. The New Agers don't necessarily know that they are doing wrong or disrespecting but it does come down to misappropriation of sacredness.
Sacredness is the highest form of responsibility. New Agers often play loose with responsibility. I have yet to meet a New Ager that bore full responsibility to the people from which they are misappropriating knowledge, cerimonies and practices.
-
I never got to know any that well I am afraid. The ones I spoke to were more into the Indian Guru type of figures that the Beatles used to work with. Yoga and all that stuff. American Indian beliefs are not well known in the UK and they are a mystery to most of us. Am I right in saying that you do not allow others to enjoy your spirituality too? Do you have to be Native American to understand it or could you learn a bit about it. I am not asking to be taught as I would not want to intrude but most other religions welcome those who show a real interest.
I am nervous about posting on this site as everyone seems really angry all the time with anyone not Native American. It is a bit scarey trying to be friendly :D
-
I never got to know any that well I am afraid. The ones I spoke to were more into the Indian Guru type of figures that the Beatles used to work with. Yoga and all that stuff. American Indian beliefs are not well known in the UK and they are a mystery to most of us. Am I right in saying that you do not allow others to enjoy your spirituality too? Do you have to be Native American to understand it or could you learn a bit about it. I am not asking to be taught as I would not want to intrude but most other religions welcome those who show a real interest.
I am nervous about posting on this site as everyone seems really angry all the time with anyone not Native American. It is a bit scarey trying to be friendly :D
No, we're not really angry with anyone not ndn here. In fact I am a non-native member here, I'm German, and as far as I know, nobody's angry with me :) What we all do have in common is that we are against the exploitation of ndn spirituality, against white persons falsely claiming ndn descent or ndn teachers, charging for 'ceremonies' and 'teachings', part of which they have read in books written by other frauds while they 'created' the other part themselves, and pretending all this was genuine Indian.
One difference between ndn spirituality and many other religious beliefs is the aspect of mission. There are religious beliefs, or probably rather believers who think their religion is the only appropriate one and therefore it should be practiced by everybody to save them from hell or whatever punishment that particular religion may have for the non-believers who refuse 'to see the light'.
As far as 'learning' is concerned - everybody can learn. What I don't understand is: why would they want to learn about ndn spirituality *only*? Nobody in their right state of mind would learn how to drink beer, wear lederhosen and pronounce 'Gesundheit' and then proudly announce they were a fully-fledged German!
-
I see what you mean Ingeborg.I don't think that would apply to new age people in the uk though, they seem to be into everything. Yoga, tarot cards, paganism, you name it, they seem to take a bit of everything. I have never met anyone who behaved like a Native American here. You can by dreamcatchers in the new age shops but then you can bue statues of Budha too in the same place together with Harry potter books and magic wands. New age in the uk seems to be about a lot of things but NA stuff is the least likely. I must admit I would find it flattering if people tried to act like me though. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
People in the UK don't really understand new age people as they tend to keep themselves to themselves. There is a general dismissive attitude to anyone who doesn't work for a living and people don't like to pay taxes for others to sit around all day. Some new age people choose not to work and they are considered parasites, always looking for handouts given by someone else who works hard. We don't like that.
Maybe I will come to the US and see something of your culture and learn to understand it better.
-
Jason
I am nervous about posting on this site as everyone seems really angry all the time with anyone not Native American. It is a bit scarey trying to be friendly
I find most of the people posting here to be issue oriented , and people usually try to be fair and balanced in in their comments . But I gota tell you , anger is fact of life if you spend any time with real Native people ( the ones who have just lived through 500 + years of genocide ) I would suggest watching the movie "Crash" as it does a good job of showing how racism and past trauma and pain can echo down in a community affecting everyone , even the most thoughtful and well meaning . To have any expectation Native people would not feel angry , is very unrealistic , selfserving and ignorant of the real supression and suffering that has gone down.
Jason
Am I right in saying that you do not allow others to enjoy your spirituality too? Do you have to be Native American to understand it or could you learn a bit about it.
One problem for people from different backgrounds wanting to learn "Native Spirituality" , is there is many different Native cultures and a lot of why traditions work for Native people is because these traditions are deeply connected with the land and the thousands of generations of ancestors who have lived on that land . Traditions are traditional because they connect with the many generations who practiced these traditions before us , and the many geneations who will practice these traditions into the future .If it isn't your tradition , it isn't a tradition at all , and as much as people might long for that deep sense of being connected with something much bigger than themselves , if it isn't your tradition, practicing someone elses ancient traditions just isn't going to do it , in a real way .
For example , the Makah on the West Coast traditionally hunted whales for food and ceremonial purposes , and so there are many traditions which include songs , dances , and ceremonies . What would you think if a bunch of Lakota decided , they would adopt the Makah traditions around whale hunting , and while living in Lakota communities , they began using Makah songs , dances and ceremonies ? Do you think that would make anyone happy ? :(
I think we can all learn from the core values and morals of all religions , but if people were studying Confucism , it would be silly to try an dress like you were Chinese , take a Chinese name , eat Chinese food and go to Chinese camps and speak English like it is your second language . That would be about escapism and fantasy . Not learning to live in a responsible and harmonious way with reality . There is a big difference .
Just my own understanding of this . I hope it helps .
-
But I gota tell you , anger is fact of life if you spend any time with real Native people ( the ones who have just lived through 500 + years of genocide )
Anger often does more harm to those who get angry. The Jews, Witches and lots of other groups have had far more than 500 years of genocide by they seem to have moved on.
-
"moving on" is a whole lot easier once the genocide stops. its hard to forgive and forget with a foot on your throat.
-
There is more than one form of genocide also. Corruption of the culture by "fakes", pan-Indianism, someone claiming to be a Cherokee Medicine Man, and giving Sun Dances, and using Lakota words. The general public doesn't know the difference, takes it as real, as it is all "Indian" to them. Education is still the key. frederica
-
I can see how that could be irritating. Someone pretending to be and Indian when they are not and deceiving the public. But what harm do they do to the public exactly? Lots of people pretend to be what they are not, often because they admire the people they try to emulate.
What exactly is the harm? I know that real Indians would not charge for healing but lots of other healers do make a charge. it doesn't alter the healing power. I am not trying to be provocative, I really want to know.
-
Jason, we're doing our best to be patient with you, but some of your questions...really, I have to wonder.
Are you seriously claiming Jews today are not affected by the memory of the Holocaust? I doubt you'd convince anyone in Israel of that.
Do you normally go around lecturing Jews about how you feel they should feel about the Holocaust, or lecture Blacks about how you feel they should feel about slavery?
Yes, there is obvious harm by frauds, much like the harm quacks pretending to be doctors do. Many if the herbs and drugs used in ceremonies are just that, drugs that can kill if you don't know what you're doing. Same with ceremonies like sweatlodges. That's not even counting the people who die from falsely thinking they're healed. One of the frauds calling himself Roy Littlesun (based in England now actually) was claiming he had a cure for AIDS by simpling eating vegetarian and avoiding soft drinks.
We realize you're new here, but could you do a search first to see if the topic has already been covered before you ask your questions?
If you decide to come over to visit Native homelands, many reservations do have tourism information on their websites. Some have tourist bureaus.
If you come, you'll find you'll enjoy yourself more and learn a lot more if you listen more than you give out advice no one asked for. If you do the first, you may make friends among Native people. If you do the second, don't be surprised if people start avoiding you.
Be careful because there are also lots of frauds doing "spiritual tourism". ("Come on over! For only $1999 you too can be part of an Authentic Red Indian Sooper Secret Ritual!") There's quite a few threads in here on that subject too.
-
Hi Jason,
Sorry I didn't know who you are before. I am glad you took my invite to come on over. I do hope you are learning here.
Weheli ;)
-
Jason, we're doing our best to be patient with you, but some of your questions...really, I have to wonder.
Everyone else has been patient, I am only asking things I don't understand. Being dyslexic means that I would have to spend hours just to read a couple of articles and I have looked for some of these things but have probably spelled them wrong because I can't find them.
If you come, you'll find you'll enjoy yourself more and learn a lot more if you listen more than you give out advice no one asked for. If you do the first, you may make friends among Native people. If you do the second, don't be surprised if people start avoiding you.
I notice that anytime someone asks a question they seem to be met by anger and that they become frightened to ask. I do not want people to be angry with me and so I wont ask any more questions.
If there is anyone on here who I could ask privately perhaps they would email me as there is a lot I want to understand.
Do you normally go around lecturing Jews about how you feel they should feel about the Holocaust, or lecture Blacks about how you feel they should feel about slavery?
I did not lecture anyone. I just said the others had moved on. As a Jew I and my people embrace the goods things in life and accept that not everyone will treat us fairly. If you are short, bald, stammer, fat, dyslexic, gay or even just plain stupid, life is often unfair, it affects us all. I am not lecturing you, just saying how I feel about my life and I accept the way you feel too, if it makes you happy.
Hi Jason,
Sorry I didn't know who you are before. I am glad you took my invite to come on over. I do hope you are learning here.
Weheli
Hi Weheli, yes I have learned a lot of things here and a great deal about the people on here too
-
"Everyone else has been patient"
Really, come on. *Everyone* has been patient.
"Being dyslexic means that I would have to spend hours just to read a couple of articles and I have looked for some of these things but have probably spelled them wrong because I can't find them."
And that's something we're all keeping in mind.
"I notice that anytime someone asks a question they seem to be met by anger and that they become frightened to ask."
Come on. Where has that ever happened in here? Don't make things up.
And yet before, you claimed you couldn't make your way around the site.
Don't confuse my slight annoyance with "anger" or imagine yourself and anyone else curious to be facing persecution.
"I did not lecture anyone. I just said" etc, followed by more lecturing"
"I am not lecturing you, just saying" etc, followed by more lecturing"
A fine art, lecturing by saying you're not lecturing, then followed by more lecturing.
I don't presume to tell you how to feel about the Holocaust, you don't presume to tell us how to feel about Native issues. Deal?
And that's not "anger", that's a discussion between us with me asking for you to be more polite.
-
Everyone else has been patient, I am only asking things I don't understand. [...]
I notice that anytime someone asks a question they seem to be met by anger and that they become frightened to ask. I do not want people to be angry with me and so I wont ask any more questions.
I'd have to agree to educatedindian there: everyone has been patient with you.
As my partner suffers from a form of dyslexia, too, let me tell you as much as that: using dyslexia as an excuse for asking out of the way questions and coming up with wrong accusations won't work, neither here nor in real life. We explained before that it isn't just 'anytime someone asks a question' people are flying off the handle here, and you're the only one claiming (pretending?) they're too frightened to ask.
If you really do want to learn more, please do some reading, and thinking. After that, you'll probably realize that it's adding insult to injury to go and tell people that all of us do have their behinds kicked once in a while, and the best bet for anyone whose turn it is to have their behinds kicked was to get over it and not bother the world with complaints about any bruises the boot might have caused. Do some reading on prejudice, stereotypes, and white privilege, I'm confident that should answer quite a few of your questions. At least the ones about what harm plastic shamans do and why we're working at this issue.
-
As I said, i wont trouble you with any more questions so there is no point in replying to this thread unless you are being angry becuase you like fighting (?). I am told a few people here just argue with everyone because they have nothing else to do.
I have had 2 private emails and those people have told me they don't have an anger problem. But as they said, they are naturally happy people with careers etc and they see the world in a constructive way. One of them explained your position to me and the sort of lives you lead so I will not trouble any of you any more.
It is good to know that that some people are not racist and dont fight everyone who is not Indian.
-
Jason,
First I am going to ask you outright if you are Jervis aka firewalker?
A lot of what you are talking about sounds like him, but than I could be wrong.
What percisley do you want to know?? Ask your questions (1, (2 ect.
I notice you keep misinterpeting percise answers to your questions as "people" being angry at you for asking! And than you play the victim and blame it on the posters in here. If some one disagrees with you, do you interpret that as being angry at you? I DO NOT[b believe much of what you say. You say you know little about new age in the UK, but go on to tell all about them, reread the threads.
SO WHAT DO YOU WANT TO ASK????
Weheli
-
As I said, i wont trouble you with any more questions so there is no point in replying to this thread unless you are being angry becuase you like fighting (?). I am told a few people here just argue with everyone because they have nothing else to do.
I have had 2 private emails and those people have told me they don't have an anger problem. But as they said, they are naturally happy people with careers etc and they see the world in a constructive way. One of them explained your position to me and the sort of lives you lead so I will not trouble any of you any more.
It is good to know that that some people are not racist and dont fight everyone who is not Indian.
Hi Jason, I am Swedish - not a single drop of Indian blood here :) I have been on NAFPS for several years and have had the honour of meeting some of the people posting. I have not even once experienced any kind of "racism against non-Indians" on this board, rather the opposite! Nor have I "been frightened of asking questions", like you put it. I have always been met with respect and thanks to all the support and ínformation I´ve received I have been able to inform others about the exploitation.
You seem to blame Indians for coming down hard on you since you´re non-Indian, but there are also non-Indians questioning your motives. So could it rather have something to do with the way you ask the questions? Or the way you receive the replies? Communication goes two ways, you know... ;)