Author Topic: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities  (Read 32619 times)

Offline Ric_Richardson

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2005, 06:07:16 pm »
Tansi;

Please refer to "Who Are We" and your questions may be answered.

Ric

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2005, 06:39:52 pm »
You mean the Who  Are We stuff at the main page. Yes, Ric, I read that. I was not clear with my point I guess.

I hesitate around any watchdogs, whether I agree or not, left or right, etc.

I don't really care what a nuager does, is sold, falls for, beleives in, and on and on.

You think Crosslin Smith reads this forum? Worries about it? Bet he's more concerned (just my guess) about all  those christains Cherokees

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2005, 07:54:48 pm »
OMG! Raven! That is funny! Reminds me of somehting. My friend sponsored a lowampi for her friend. He invited some strange people. The elder man that was doing the ceremony asked if anyone had any questions about the ceremony before we started. This one woman says "Well, I was driving around last week and a deer crossed my path. And deer is my totem animal so I was wondering what that meant." The elder looked at her and said "It means a deer ran in front of your car..."

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2005, 07:59:45 pm »
So, Ganeida, if you don'ty care, why are you here. Because that is the point of this forum, to expose frauds. I consider what they do a form of racism because many of those scammed and burnt or otherwise abuse, then blame ALL Indians because someone claiming to be Indian did this to them. I have come face to face with those racists. When WE fail to meet THEIR fantasies, and worse, they are conned, then it is OUR fault some how. And believe me, thise bigots go out of their way to make life miserable for real Indians.

And you know, we aren't so different then some mainstream religions. The catholic church has gone out of it's way to denounce off shoot catholic religions. The LDS fights against some of the offshoots of their religion.  So why do you think we should just ignore frauds?

Offline educatedindian

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2005, 10:04:58 pm »
Dear Guest,

Sorry if this is condescending, but that' s to be expected when someone is so dense they read the Who We Are section and then fails to understand even one single point they read.

The Nuage movement is filled with racism, sexual abuse, and tells huge numbers of lies about Native people. This leaves huge numbers of people deeply scarred, bitter, angry, disillusioned, and hostile towards ACTUAL Natives.

Nuagers desecrate Native sacred sites, destroy plants used in ceremonies, and above all wind up drowning out the voices of ACTUAL Natives. We try to talk about sovereignty, diabetes, language loss, etc, and they'd rather hear about finding their totem animals and using crystals.

If you don't care about naive women getting raped and their children getting molested, or people losing huge amounts of money and time or winding up badly burned or even dead from fake versions of sweatlodges...

...or Native lifeways being threatened by this cultural and spiritual imperialism, then perhaps you should quit wasting our time so we speak to those who actually give a damn about other people.

But perhaps before you go you should explain why you aren't over at a Black forum saying "I don't give a damn about civil rights." or at a Jewish forum saying "Who cares about anti-Semism? Not me!"

Your lack of empathy or comprehension are appalling.

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2005, 11:41:29 pm »
Fuck you for calling me dense Al

Al's note: Though I normally delete messages like this so as not to reward people fro being obnoxious, I decided to leave this one up. After all, it let's everyone know just how childish our "guest" is. Not to mention too cowardly to say who they are.
I should also mention that our "guest was so childish she spammed the board with obscenities with three more messages. So obviously I hit a nerve when I pointed out she's not very bright.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 am by educatedindian »

Offline Ganieda

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2005, 12:43:19 am »
so, debbieredbear, why the hell would I sign in as guest when I have my own membership here?  Duh?  

Maybe you need to do more thinking before mouthing off and accusing someone of stuff they had no part in.  
*May the Sun warm your Heart, The Moon light your Path and Sacred Mother Earth embrace and protect you always.*

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2005, 04:51:28 am »
If it wasn't you I apologize. However, you frequently have posted as "guest" even when you have your own membership. And you have admitted as much.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 am by debbieredbear »

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2005, 04:56:38 am »
Gee guest, all you seem to be doing is making us all see what an immature child you are.  Now go outside and play.

Offline Ganieda

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2005, 05:47:08 am »
Thank you, Debbiebear.  

No, I have never posted a message here as "guest" since I became a member.  I posted as "guest" before, but not since.  So, no, I have not admitted to doing so.  
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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2005, 11:00:45 am »
Um - well to get back to that article

Think I understand most of what is being said here  - that  traditions take generations to build (why they are traditions ) but can be almost destroyed in one generation of mixing other stuff in there , so they need to be protected , and also people’s body’s , minds , hearts and souls need to be protected from people posing as spiritual leaders who are not who they say they are , and who don’t know what they pretend to know .

But , I also feel a bit confused when I read some parts of this article . I hope this dosn’t sound too stupid .

For example ;  many non native people get invited to ceremonies or cultural activities by native friends or even elders . Sometimes it would even be rude not to participate. When ceremonies end , often there is a give away of a braid of sweetgrass , and I have seen non native/ slightly native  people get given these sweetgrass braids , often by good elders.  I have heard native people talk about smudging being a ceremony , so I would guess if an elder gives a braid of sweetgrass to someone , it is OK for them to use it to smudge . ?

What gets confusing is this article makes it sound like non native/ mostly non native  people shouldn’t be having anything to do with  native religion , and when it says this , this article seems to be contradicted by the actions of a lot of seemingly good elders .

Another bigger example ; Once I heard about a non native person ( friend of a friend ) who was given a pipe by a native elder , and this person felt funny about accepting it , but it seemed rude not to. I later heard some native people say this was a good elder , who did this . So was this person wrong to accept this pipe , and if so , what should they have done ?

Is there a polite , respectful way ,  to refuse some activities , assistance , or gifts  ?    Is this the right thing to do ?

Once I went to a reserve to visit some people I knew there , and as soon as I got there, an old woman came out of her house and grabbed me by the arm and said she wanted to teach me all this native stuff . My friends got me away from her , and told me she was just a foolish old woman who was desperate for attention , and I should ignore her , but if I didn't have anyone there to rescue me , it would have been hard to know what to do . ( I can imagine PODIA’s without any known  living relatives on reserve could be really vulnerable to these sorts of experiences )

So I feel confused  , when I read that by accepting things that seemed to be freely shared , I have participated in genocide against native people .

I could see that for some people these words would hurt and seem unfair , even though there is a lot of truth in them .

What is the right thing to do , when someone who is native,  or even who seems to be a native elder , wants to share something from their culture ?

When is it OK to accept this and when is it not ?

If it isn't Ok  , how can a person side step this without being rude?

(if I want to post again ,  I will try and figure out a user name,  and register , as I can see having too many    ”guests” could be a bit confusing.  )

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2005, 05:39:57 pm »
another guest,

Generally, I would say that if a Native friend invited you to ceremony, you should go if you want to.  The participation that the article mainly speaks of is a bit different then one's friends saying "Hey! We're having a sweat would you like to come?" And while smudging is a ceremony, sweetgrass and sage are sold all over. In some cases, the tribes themselves do it. In fact, there is some sweetgrass sold from Canada that actually helps support and fun a treatment facility. It's a hard thing to  say, a fine line to walk. Others, I am sure will have other opinions. I spreak for no one but myself.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2005, 05:50:21 pm »
Another guest: Try to ignore the "guest". We're pretty certain she'll go away once she realizes she's failed yet again to disrupt this place.

Back to your questions:

"So was this person wrong to accept this pipe , and if so , what should they have done ?"

I don't see anything wrong in accepting a pipe. What would worry me is if someone went around bragging, "I received THE sacred pipe of Tribe X! I must be special in the eyes of the tribe, their Great White Savior! All of you can now pay me for Secret Indian Teachings!"

Happens more often than not.  

"Is there a polite , respectful way ,  to refuse some activities , assistance , or gifts  ?    Is this the right thing to do ?"

No polite way that I know. Again, I think it's not the accepting gifts that is the problem. It's when outsiders read too much into that.

"I feel confused  , when I read that by accepting things that seemed to be freely shared , I have participated in genocide against native people ."

I don't think the author meant that. I think she was speaking against ceremony sellers.  

"What is the right thing to do , when someone who is native,  or even who seems to be a native elder , wants to share something from their culture ?"

I think the same thing you would in cases where they are not Native. Wonder why they are doing that, and think about whether accepting this could get you drawn into something you don't want to be a part of, or perhaps could simply be a very decent generous person.

Sometimes people have ulterior motives for "giving" or "sharing", like wanting to curry favor or show off or get attention. Natives are the same mix of good and bad as any other people.

walking-soft

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2005, 10:19:22 pm »
I found a wonderful reply to this topic on indian country spoken by an elder native, lets hope i get the site right: topic wannabee,

www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?=1073422363-30k
if this doesn't work perhaps some one can go to  www.indiancountry.com and bring the article over to this site if possible.
                                  Thanks   Joyce A.

Offline Ganieda

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Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2005, 08:13:26 am »
Al, debbiebear....

Just wondering, since you both refer to "guest" as "she"....you don't still think it was me do you?  I swear I had nothing to do with those posted messages.  The only reason I noticed them is because debbiebear called me by my name.  
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