Author Topic: Dupree Pt 2  (Read 18027 times)


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Dupree Pt 2
« on: May 30, 2007, 09:02:34 pm »

Hi Weheli,

Ok. Understood. I gathered that much.

Tommy Lighhning Bolt did not say who this Californian Coyote medicine man is but I can ask him tonight and to show him this forum.

As far as Looking Back Woman, she told me she has Fools Crows ceremonial canupa, the one that he used at sun dance, its documented in the Sundance photos.

Not the so called "canunpa Wakan" that was passed down and is believed to be in Looking Horse family. She has never claimed she has that.

What she said is her father gave it to her. He was given this by Fools Crow. That's it. End of story.  Fools crow made up 14 to light the seven council fires. One for each male and female.

I know Looking Back Womans uncle Andrew Dupree was given "the canupa wakan" to look after by Marha Bad Warrior. Arvols great grandmother. Now where this is today seems to be a mystery.  This is documented in the book by Wilbur Riegert. "quest for the sacred pipe of the Sioux."

You can read it online on my site.

As far as I know, nor has she claimed she is a medicine woman, but that heyoka runs in her family. Her uncle was Chauncey Dupree, an authentic heyoka from what others have told me. She has said she is heyoka in her ways. That could be misconstrued as meaning many things.

When you said "It has and is always the way that a TRUE MEDICINE MAN NEVER speaks that he is a medicine man. It may have been spread by word of mouth but HE will never speak of this".

Yes , but like I said earlier to coffee drinker, Black Elk had no problem saying he was a medicine man in Black Elk speaks to John G Neihardt, neither did Fools Crow to Thomas Mails or John Fire Lame Deer to Richard Erdos.

I am not saying Tommy Lightning Bolt is one or is not one. That's not for me to judge. Im just a white guy with a website who asks questions.

What interests me is this criteria.  This standard, these rules and regulations, or beliefs people have about this. I'm finding mnay contradictions all over the place on this forum.

See this interview here if you get a chance with Peter Catches.  Its been in his family for 37 generations. From what you are saying this would discount him as well. I ask him about phoney medicine men as well.

My interview with Harlyn Geronimo will be online this fall.  Volume 9. He also talks about this. From your standard this would also not only discount him but his great grandfather Geronimo himself in his interview for the book with S. M. Barrett.  Im sure you know Geronimo was also a Medicine man.

I can also show you many more examples if you like. 

Offline LBW

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Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2007, 10:15:53 pm »
Only by sharing knowledge, is it passed down. Those doing the most talking about exploitation, and pointing fingers have three fingers pointing back at themselves.
Fools Crow said these people knew the least, and did not wish to speak, because if they did, they would show their ignorance in these sacred matters.
I have read many unkind words here about my Dupree family and myself, but all the information/documentation is available for all to see for themselves, if they'd do their own homework instead of parroting what they've heard, not what they know in their heart for sure...and, I have done my homework, 15 years researching before I said a word to anyone about what I had to be accurate, if I were to speak about it.
 It is accurate, and I'd suggest anyone who is interested in the White Buffalo Calf Pipe, the Seven Sacred Ceremonies, and the Seven Council Fires, and any information pertaining to my Dupree family's connection to it, read the material provided at, that is back online after an attempt at Intellectual Property Theft of the material. And the information at Attempts at censorship only prove the information's validity, and far reaching ramifications affecting our Lakota Spiritual History today.
I can prove my information is accurate...legally. Under the most extreme scrutiny, it will it stand for all time, as it is currently being made into a documentary film, available to all, for all people to know the legacy left by White Buffalo Calf Pipe Woman, and Martha Bad Warrior's wishes for it.
The film-maker, Louie Lawless, who has just released "Unrepentant" with Kevin Annette, pertaining to the Residential School Genocide of Aboriginal Children in Canada, (Best Director at the NY Film & Video Festival, and Best Film at the the LA Video & Film Festival), and I are making the film/documentary called "Gift from the Ancestors" which gives comprehensive documentation copyrighted for those wanting to know what really happened in 1936, to Martha Bad Warrior, third and last blood-line "Keeper" of the original White Buffalo Calf Pipe, not the myth created to canvass the unknowing International Communities for that is real fraud. I have proof from Vivian High Elk, (the said linage keeper) that It is not there, and has not been since before Martha's death on Oct. 25, 1936, by her own admission....and, she said so what???? So what if they don't have the original at Green Grass.
My final point, without Fredrick Dupris and his half-breed Lakota children, (my family that has been spoke about here on this forum so slanderously) saving the last of the buffalo in the late 1800's, there would be no white buffalo calves being born today, or any legacy that could be fullfilled! Get educated Mitakauyepi, for there is no time like the present to begin your enlightenment into your true spiritual history, and remember Martha's legacy to you...the Cannunpa Wakan is to be used as a Peacemaker between Nations, and the temporal benefits are for all of mankind, regardless of race, creed, color or blood quantum.
 You don't see anywhere on my website, where I ask for anything, or any money for the knowledge of the discription, origin, linage and ceremonial use of the Cannunpa Wakan. And for more archival information that was collected between 1964-1967, that I had no way of manipulating...go read it for yourself, and you will see with your own eyes where the deception started, and by what family.
Toksa ake wacinyakin,
One who knows her spiritual history, and will share it.


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Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2007, 10:58:07 pm »

Here is a link to anyone who has not read the book by Wilbur Riegert.

This shows how Martha Bad Warrior gave the Canunapa wakan to Andrew Dupree for safe keeping and much more.

I see a real problem here with people making mean spirited ill informed allegations based on hearsay, gossip, speculation and conjecture. I do not see any scientific evidence yet to disprove Looking Back Woman's claims. In fact what I see is proof of the opposite.  If anyone has any evidence to prove other wise, please come forward and I will present this information on my site.


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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2007, 09:05:55 pm »

This is it here. Is this waht you mean?

Whatever Suzanne Dupree's agenda is, the one thing she is guilty of is exploiting her people's traditions. To stand and pose for photographs with a pipe shows she has no belief in the sacredness of it. And to top it off she is holding a small drum. That is not a Lakota tradition.

After reading the story it is more likely that the pipe she has is her father's sundance pipe. That is a far cry from the original. There are pipes that are used for specific things.

[I believe the issue will become more of not whether the pipe is the original buffalo calf maiden pipe, but that of what Ms. Dupree is doing. This is not a case of changing with the times, it is about tradition that has been handed down from generation to generation, and what she is doing goes against this whole belief.

I would not want to be in her position, not only because of the responsibilty that comes with the pipe, but that what she is doing, she is opening a door for things that will not be in her favor.

The pipe is not meant for all to see, once again this is someone that has enough knowledge to make them dangerous.

The door that Ms. Dupree has opened is not a positive door for the Lakota people, what she is attempting to do is to bring shame on her people.This is pouring salt on a wound. With all the suffering the people have gone through, the one thing they have that can not be taken away is their belief in that pipe, and what she is doing here is an example of another one out there trying to strip away their faith and beliefs.


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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2007, 10:47:15 pm »

Hi Educated Indian/ Al Caroll

Please list all the documents, links, articles or any other information that will prove that Looking Back Woman is a "fraud" and a "plastic shaman" What ever that means.

I don't mean gossip, hearsay, conjecture, fiction or your own personal opinion. What I'm looking for is incontrovertible evidence. I cannot find the feed on your site. I don't know if someone has deleted them but they are not showing up under your search engine.

I think its time to address this. I want you to prove to me that Looking Back Woman  has exploited her culture by selling ceremony, sweats, healings, seminars, books, pipes or anything else.

I also want you to prove to me that her claims about her canunpa and her allegations are not true. We can either do this in an interview on heyoka magazine, volume 9 or on your site or both.


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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2007, 05:54:20 pm »
Marlon, Have you spoken to the other side of the issue? You know there is more than one claim. Or, are you just choosing sides? There is not much scientific about it. frederica


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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007, 07:04:02 pm »

What other side. If you mean the side of newageforum I think they have presented their case. I have asked 7 times for them to present their evidence to substantiate their claims that she is a fraud. I have also invited them to conducted interviews and put their cards on the table. So far nothing.

If you have any evidence that she a fraud. please present your evidence.  I agree with you, its not rocket science.

Now here is some proof of the photo I discussed in case you wish to read this letter form the Smithsonian Institute in Washinton DC about Martha Bad Warrior and her canunpa.

Dear Ms. Dupree, Looking Back Woman,
Thank you for you e-mail regarding Wilbur Riegert’s photograph of Martha Bad Warrior.  I apologize for taking so long to reply.  I have been giving lectures at various universities and colleges this semester on behalf of Phi Beta Kappa, and this, together with my teaching here at Indiana University, has not allowed me the time to keep up with correspondence.  Your letter required me to search in my files for my notes from 1966 to refresh my memory. 
First I would like to say that in 1966 I was a college student, twenty years old, on my first visit to South Dakota.  I was tagging along with John Smith, an amateur ethnographer whom I met through correspondence.  He believed that he had arranged to see the Calf Pipe Bundle unwrapped and invited me to come along.  My interest was more in seeing the Sioux reservations for the first time and meeting some of the people whose culture so interested me.  John and I went to Wounded Knee and looked at the museum, hoping to meet Mr. Riegert, but we did not find him.
Looking back at that time, my readings of books and scholarly reports gave me an attitude of certainty.  Later, in 1970, I had the opportunity as a graduate student to live for six months on the Cheyenne River Reservation, half of the time in Green Grass, where I came to know the members of the Looking Horse family whom I had visited so briefly before.  Living with families at Green Grass and Iron Lighting, and visiting around Cheyenne River and Standing Rock Reservations, began the process of teaching me to listen.  The value of anthropology, from my perspective, is that sustained relationships with the people whose culture and history you are studying tempers the certainty that so easily results from engaging the written record alone. 
In the years subsequent to 1966 many Lakota individuals have spoken to me about the Calf Pipe, though I have never made it a topic of special inquiry.  Rather, it is so important for the people today that it inevitably comes up in conversation.  A number of times the photo of Martha Bad Warrior has been mentioned and I can truthfully say that all variations identifying the object she holds have been told to me: that it is the Calf Pipe itself; that it is a replica of the Calf Pipe; that it is a different ceremonial pipe; and that it is not a pipe at all, but a cane.  Of course, I have no way of knowing which interpretation is correct, nor is it properly my business as an ethnographer to pass judgment on it.
The extract from a letter I wrote to the archivist in 1966 that is quoted in the catalog section “Local Notes,??? is an embarrassing expression of my youthful certainty:
“Although there is no doubt that this is the sacred pipe, it is denied by the modern day keeper's family. They claim it is a replica of the sacred pipe. This helps throw ethnographers off the track. The family says this was not the real pipe, no white man has ever seen the pipe (not true, of course), we cannot open the bundle for you. John and I were not the only ones to try--they said there had been a couple of people there from California, and one from England. John and I did get to go into the sacred pipe enclosure and ‘pray over the pipe’.???
I will ask that this be deleted from the catalog entry.
The basis for my certainty at the time was my reading of the1941 article in the American Anthropologist by Sidney Thomas, who may have been at Green Grass the same day that Riegert took his photographs.  His article shows the contents of the bundle and treats it as the original Calf Pipe.  (I attach a copy, though you probably already know this article.)  In short, I never questioned it, so when I was told that the pipe in the photo was not the original I dismissed it.  I would not do so now. 
The Thomas article, by the way, suggests that the pipe was at that time about two hundred-fifty years old, which seems much more believable to me than the claim made in the extract from Indian Voices quoted in the Summary section of the catalog that the pipe dates back “several hundred years.???  (Please note that I am not the author of that text.)  Most accounts of the bringing of the pipe treat it as a historical event, not a myth, so dating it to around the time the Lakotas moved to the Missouri River seems to make good sense to me.
For the record, Belva Jack loaned the photo to the Smithsonian so it could be copied and preserved; I was just the messenger who carried it to Washington.  After copying, the original photo was returned to her.
Later this spring, after our semester ends, I plan to make a trip to Washington during which I will have the opportunity to visit the National Anthropological Archives.  In the meantime, I will write to Rob Leopold and send him a revised and streamlined catalog entry, with the request that he substitute it for the old one.  Before I do so, I am attaching it below for your comments, to see if you think it is appropriate.
Although I have been deeply interested in Lakota culture, history, and language since childhood, I am not of American Indian descent.  I try to carry out my studies respectfully, with special concern to making older materials available to interested people today, and for the generations to come.  I have not seen Riegert’s Quest for the Pipe of Sioux but I have sent for it on interlibrary loan, and look forward to reading it.
With best wishes,
Ray DeMallie


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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2007, 08:13:05 pm »
you answered my question, apparently you haven't. frederica


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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2007, 08:51:17 pm »

Totally agree with you. Two sides to every story. I have no problem giving anyone the same magazine space as LBW.

If you know of anyone who wants to do an interview and has credible evidence about LBW being a fraud, please send them my way. If its based on gossip, slander,  hot air,  conjecture or hearsay.  There's enough of that out there already.

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2007, 10:12:23 pm »
And have you taken the time to interview the Looking Horse family about this? Because all I see is that you took a side without hearing what the other side had to say. This is regarding the pipe. You believed everything this woman told you never having spoken to the other people involved.


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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2007, 10:52:06 pm »
Hi Debbie,

Very good point. Yes so far there is only one side of the story I agree with you.

I did not interview any of them but would do anytime. 

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2007, 01:59:08 am »
Marlon, have you taken a look at the older thread about Dupree in here? There were half a dozen well known and respected elders and activists saying Dupree didn't know what she was talking about, did not have even the most basic facts correct. I recall that Carter Camp, for one, pointed out she was repatedly claiming to be at places where no one remembers her being.

Dupree is a hairdresser who stayed off the rez for decades, then claims she came back and had all these people demanding she be some kind of spiritual leader, and then went out of her way to discredit actual Lakota elder. Just how credible is she compared to highly regarded elders and activists who've spent their lives doing the right thing and getting nothing in return but the thanks of grateful people?


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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2007, 02:51:42 am »
Hi Al,

Yes I have that CC email from last year?  

When you said  "There were half a dozen well known and respected elders and activists saying Dupree didn't know what she was talking about, did not have even the most basic facts correct"

Who exactly are these people and what facts did she get wrong?  Do you mean about the canunpa wakan or something else.  That's a bit vague.

Also what does cutting hair have to do with anything?  Don't understand your relevance.

Who said she demanded she wanted to become their spiritual leader?  

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2007, 08:34:45 pm »
This seems like the right place for this announcement. Dupree has threatened both myself and Annika repeatedly over the last several days with lawsuits.

Assuming she's not bluffing and blowing smoke like the several dozen others who've made that empty threat, this brings up an interesting questoion:

Where is her money coming from? Money for lawyers, money for a website that seems to be beyond the means of a hairdresser setting up with her tip money.

(Yes Marlon, it is relevant. If you actually knew anything about Native medicine people, you'd know they spend decades training before they practice. Someone who spent the last fifteen years off the rez obviously is unprepared for any responsibilities with a pipe.]

We also are getting reports that Dupree has followers in Europe who are doing their best to track people who speak out against exploiters and gather information.

Hopefully Dupree and any associates will read this notice:

Ms. Dupree:

If you can't tell the difference between criticism and what you imagine to be "slander", or an opinion and what you imagine to be "libel", frankly that's not our problem.

If you'd bothered to read our Who We Are message, you'd know we get threats to sue on about a monthly basis.

And not once have any of them ever carried out these threats.

Fact is, a judge would find the claims of libel or slander laughable.

Any good lawyer would advise you that you have no case.

We will not be silenced or intimidated into silence.

Any true medicine person would not go around making empty legal threats.

Generally only spiritual frauds and exploiters use that tactic.

Any true medicine person or traditional elder knows that their good character and actions will be enough to win out over any false accusation or gossip.

Though we certainly don't claim to be elders or medicine people, we've been fortunate enough to have worked with some of them. And we say that their standards of behavior are more than good enough for us.

Our good character and right actions are our only defense. Can you say the same? Are you willing to do the same?

The fact that you were willing to threaten Annika repeatedly with lawsuits simply for not passing along your threatening messages fast enough says quite a bit about your present lack of character. But hopefully you will change and learn.   

Incidentally, where would such a supposedly deeply spiritual leader such as yourself get the money for a lawsuit, eleborate websites, and networks made up of Nuage websites and European followers?

And you do realize if you were to sue me, I would have an extremely good case for a SLAP suit, or a countersuit for a frivolous lawsuit.

My lawyer's name is Monica Morales. She's my cousin. If you are foolish enough to carry out your threat, let me know and I'll put you in touch with her.

I will not be intimdated. No one else has ever succeeded, and you won't be the first.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2007, 02:26:57 am »
I have spent quite a bit of time the past few days reading LBW's account , trying to get a clear understanding of what is going on here . The way LBW has written this account I found it very confusing .
I am really torn , because i know people get hurt by confusing information - but I also feel it is really disrespectful to be dragging such things through the mud of uninformed non Lakota public opinion .

As this information is already out there and is creating confusion and this confusion might be used to unfairly discredit something that should not be discredited , I am making the choice to go over some of this information , but if this had not already been posted in a way I find confusing I would not feel comfortable to talk about anything as Sacred as a Pipe in this way .

That this confusing information seems to be being used to create doubts about the authority and competance of the Lakota / Nakota / Dakota people , when it comes to the maintanince of their own cultural traditions , I find really appauling . ( The bold highlights are my own )

Date: 1936 (3 months before Mrs Bad Warrior's death).
Photographer: Wilbur A. Riegert, Wounded Knee, South Dakota.
Excerpts from letter from R. DeMallie, 5400 Greenwood Avenue, Chicago, 60615, dated 9/26/66: "The picture shows Mrs Martha Bad Warrior holding the Sacred Buffalo Calf Pipe - the main content of the most sacred of the Sioux medicine bundles. (con..)

Extract from Indian Voices, July, 1966 page 4 (reprinted from The Sioux Journal): Custodian of Mystic Calf Pipe Dies at Green Grass, S. D. Mrs Lucy Looking Horse, the second woman to ever be the custodian of the Mystic Calf Pipe died April 12 at her home in Green Grass, South Dakota. Over many generations, dating back several hundred years, the only other woman so honored as administrator of the pipe was Mrs Martha Bad Warrior who was Lucy's mother. (con..)

The sacred pipe has been handed down from one generation to another. The original family who administered the pipe was the Elk Head family. In recent years, Mrs Bad Warrior, who died in 1936,passed it on to her half brother Ernest Two Runs, also of Green Grass. The latter gave possession of the pipe to Ehli Bad Warrior in 1942. Upon Ehli's death in 1959, it passed to Mrs Lucy Looking Horse. It is not known who Mrs Looking Horse designated as heir to the pipe. (con..)

Copy (9/66) from original photograph loaned to SOA-A by Mrs Belva Jack, Mission, South Dakota (through R. DeMallie, 5400 Greenwood Avenue, Chicago 60615).

Written on back of print: "Property of Wilbur A. Riegert, Wounded Knee, S. Dakota. "Died October 25 - 1936 [Must refer to Mrs Bad Warrior]. "Given to Lucy Looking Horse on 10-29-64 by W. A. Riegert, Everett C. Jordan, Mrs A. M. Clark." [Lucy Looking Horse died in April, 1966. At the giveaway after her death, this picture was given to Mrs Belva Jack.]

"This picture, as you see, belonged to Mrs Looking Horse (Lucy H.), the daughter of Martha, and the keeper of the sacred pipe. She died last May. At the giveaway after her death this picture was given to Mrs Belva Jack, of Mission, S. D., a distant relative [who lent it to Ray DeMallie]. ...Although there is no doubt that this is the sacred pipe, it is denied by the modern day keeper's family. They claim it is a replica of the sacred pipe. This helps throw ethnographers off the track. The family says this was not the real pipe, no white man has ever seen the pipe
(my bold )

The Sacred Calf Pipe is now generally believed to be in the keeping of Arvol Looking Horse .

“Bear Butte is a sacred place, and we need to keep it as our grandfathers (kept it),??? said Looking Horse, who is revered in Lakota religion as the keeper of the sacred calf pipe. “When we sit on top of Bear Butte, we communicate with our creator.???

The fact that Arvol is the keeper is recognized by his tribe .


The Blue represents the Thunder Clouds above the world where live the thunder birds who control the four winds. The rainbow is for the Cheyenne River Sioux People who are keepers of the Most Sacred Calf Pipe, a gift from the White Buffalo Calf Maiden.

This generally accepted information appears to be contradicted by this article , which says Calvin Dupris
was given the Sacred Calf Pipe .

The author, Calvin Dupree, was pierced in the Sun Dance ceremonies led by Frank Fools Crow, Ceremonial Chief of the Western Teton Sioux for five years, from 1970 to 1975, one more year than required by tradition.  He was bestowed the Sacred Calf Pipe, the C'anupa Wakan by Fools Crow in August, 1971.

This information that may have come from her father , is echoed on one of LBW's webpages ;

Suzanne Dupree also known as Looking Back Woman whose father Calvin Dupree was bestowed the C'anupa Wakan( Sacred Ceremonial Calf Pipe )By Lakota ceremonial chief Franks Fools Crow

Dupree claims Frank Fools Crow's first objective was now accomplished. The most sacred object in Sioux culture was now  safely off the reservation and away from the hands of those who would misuse and possibly abuse the Pipe.
What appears to be being claimed , ( above) seems to be completely contradicted when you read through what is said below ;

LBW:  No, I do not have Martha Bad Warriors Cannunpa. (con..)

I want to clarify this. I know this is confusing but this is important. John Fire talks about Martha and the Cannunpa. 

The legbone (WBCPW) (the cannunpa Martha buried 1936-1987)?
 The catlinite (Martha) cannunpa (with the spider, turtle, buffalo on the stem)....I do not have either one of these.

I have what Fools Crow used as his Sun Dance Cannunpa.

and this ;

During a May 2006 interview with Looking Back Woman, she said, "The Pipe described by Wilbur A. Riegert  during interviews in 1936 with Martha Bad Warrior do not match the Pipe now carried by me.


There is another confusing contradiction as LBW makes one claim that the Pipe identified as Fools Crows Sundance Pipe , that was passed to Calvin Dupree , was used as a template to make 14 copies ;

What I have is what Fools Crow had. George Bryant/Standing Eagle make a copy (from the one I have), then he made a template that the 14 for the Seven Council Fires were made from.

But here LBW claims these 14 copies are exact replicas of the  "First Pipe "

We also know from Sioux history that quite some time later fourteen (14) other pipes were made and patterned after the First Pipe.

    Two pipes were given to each of the seven Sioux Nations. (con ..)

        Each Nation picked senior pipe carriers, (con..)

    This practice continued for centuries among the Sioux, Cree, Mandan, Ojibwa, and Assiniboine nations. 

fourteen (14) more pipes were made in the 1940's that were patterned exactly after the First Pipe.

Frank Fools Crow commissioned Standing Eagle, aka, George Bryant, an Ojibwas-Lakota pipe maker in Pipestone, Minnesota to make duplicates from the First Pipe
So if Martha Bad Warrior had the First Pipestone Pipe , and LBW clearly states she does not have this First Pipe , and the Pipe she has is Fool Crow's Sundance Pipe ,  it cannot be true that these 14 copies "were patterned exactly after the First Pipe" and also from the Fool Crow's Sun Dance Pipe that is currently held
by LBW , which she says herself , is of a different description .
And then there is evidence that LBW's Pipe is actually one of these copies ;

Moreover, Ritchie points out that the words "Standing Eagle," written in English are carved on the bottom of the Pipe held by Dupree. Ritchie traced this signature to a 1940's era master pipe maker in Minnesota - George Bryan, who once repaired the pipe.

    What appeared to be a hairline crack or break had been repaired by Bryan with a very high skill level, but a little glue had extruded to reveal it. Otherwise the repair is nearly invisible.

   We conjecture that as an master pipe maker, Bryan -- Standing Eagle -- would not carve his name on the bottom of Dupree's Pipe if he were simply repairing it.

It is very confusing that LBW has given no information about the lineage and history of the Pipe she carries , before it was passed to her father, but instead , she gives extensive information on the history and lineage of another Pipe , that she clearly says she does not have .

She clearly states the First Pipe , she offers so much information about - often using Riegart as a source - is not the Pipe   she has in her possesion but the Pipe she has is the Sundance Pipe used by Fools Crow .

Which is the same thing said by Vivien High Elk .

The only debate here is what sort of Spiritual authority this Sundance Pipe might confer , and this needs to be decided by the Elders in the Lakota community .

Clearly this is not the same as the bundle the Looking Horse Family is generally believed to be caring for - though LBW repeatedly confuses the issue by seeming to imply that it is .

I am not sure how credible a source Riegart's book actually is .  I notice that the information in the first link which is included with the Smithsionian Inst. photograph , which was taken by Riegart , the story which LBW says was reported by Riegart , of Martha passing the Pipe to Andrew Dupris who passed this to Fools Crow - is entirely absent , and what is there is the more widely accepted version of events  . As this information is dated 1966 , before AIM burned any history , this discrepency cannot be blamed on AIM destroying historical documents , as seems to be suggested by LBW .   

I see Reigarts book had only 18 copies printed , and it seems to have been written in 1975 . 

When all the superfulous information is striped away it seems her main point is wanting to discredit the authority of Arvol Looking Horse .

There is also comments on LBW's webpage that she does not feel comfortable in the native community ,

In the meantime, Calvin Dupree and his daughter had returned to Seattle where they both settled back into quiet academic life. He was teaching and she was a student.

    The reservation frightened Suzanne and had since she was a child. She did not understand the constant political turmoil that seemed to envelop every family. She closed her eyes against the rampant crime and she did not feel safe there.

    Suzanne says that she did not feel like she belonged there. It was war-zone in her mind and the reservation was not a  place she wanted to be - at least not for very long after spiritual ceremonies.

    Life in the Seattle area was comfortable for the Dupree family and the C'anupa Wakan was safe and well cared for by Calvin who performed daily prayer ceremonies with the Pipe according to Lakota protocols.

Dupree claims Frank Fools Crow's first objective was now accomplished. The most sacred object in Sioux culture was now  safely off the reservation and away from the hands of those who would misuse and possibly abuse the Pipe. 

Again , the accuracy of her beliefs about Fool Crow's intentions is something which can only be decided by Elders within the Lakota community .

What I see that concerns me is that LBW seems to be uncomfortable in the Native world and looking to the non native world to support her claim to having some sort  of authority .

Apparently she really disagrees with the proclomation to protect Ceremonies that attempts to achieve this through maintaining these traditions within the balance provided by a knowledgeable Native community  .

I don't see excluding non native people from some ceremonies as being unfair. In my opinion , it is simply the recognition that these ceremonies need the balance provided by a deeply rooted , knowledgeable Lakota community to stay healthy .

I don't see how any reasonable person could read through these webpages and conclude there is no need to have any protective bounderies . No matter where the lines are drawn there will be a few people who will end up unfairly on the wrong side of the line . The abusers and exploiters are the ones to confront about that , not the people and Elders who are doing what they have been forced to do , to protect and maintain traditions in a healthy and balanced way -within the context of a Native community .

I really hope these words help clarify some of the confusion around this . I again apologize to the Lakota people who may feel violated to see this being discussed in a public forum at all .

Oh ..and one more thing ..
When Vivien High Elk said " So what if it is not here ?" , what I thought she was saying , was "Why are you so obessed with this, and having proof, beyond the good Spiritual results these things bring ?" . I did not interpret this as meaning that she she did not know where this bundle was , and didn't care . 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 03:14:27 am by Moma_porcupine »