Author Topic: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"  (Read 35412 times)

Offline koyoteh

  • Posts: 113
  • Yaqui and MesoAmerican
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2009, 01:51:29 am »
Just a side note.  If anyone really wants to understand where Koyoteh is coming from, then they need to understand the concept of Aztlan.  Because it ties into a lot of what he is talking about in regards to Tribes, Soverignty and the concept of Native People in the Americas.  That was went over in debt in another thread. 
some parts maybe. But Aztlan was far from my mind in all this. I never brought up Aztlan . It came up in another thread. And so another thread was opened to get more into that tangent.
 Aztlan has no bearing on what I was saying. It can be applied though , if we want to go that route. But Aztlan is a place not a people.

My view on tribes, nations, clans, I got so many views . A lot of them go " .....on the other hand...." cause talking to so many other natives across the board, I still haven't found any consensus on any of these terms. So it makes it difficult to communicate when there are so many interpretations of what these words means.
i generally agree with sovereignty being included in the word tribe, clan, or nation, or whatever else there is out there, but sovereignty is all a these words mean. Like....a nation can have more than one tribe or clan. but sometimes we refer to the nation as tribe. Hard to tell what someone means "this time".
Whne I speak of my 'group" i am referring to what I know for sure these days. My circle. My danza group. I guess it can be called a heritage group in some ways, in other ways we are a tribe, but without any authority if that makes any sense. We don't represent the whole of the people of my larger group who aren't just dancers or even from my part of town.
  I kinda fell like , yeah we were a nation once , but now we are split up into "just" a lot of tribes.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2009, 02:09:16 am »
Quote
BUt, theoretically, ANYONE can go off and inhabit a place (hopefully morally an uninhabited place) and start their own nation/country. They can even get U.N. recognition if they want it.



Good Point here. 

Most countries and even many Indian Tribes and Empires are the result of Conquest.  Native Nations would go to war with each other all the time, and conquer another Tribe’s Territory.  The Aztec Empire subjugated who knows how many smaller Tribes and bands.   That can also be said of every modern Nation in the Americas starting from the Conquest in 1492.  Even in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc. conquest happened.   There is the “Ideal World” that we all wish we lived in, and then there is the “Real World” that we have to live in. 

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1415
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2009, 03:05:05 am »
Just a side note.  If anyone really wants to understand where Koyoteh is coming from, then they need to understand the concept of Aztlan.  Because it ties into a lot of what he is talking about in regards to Tribes, Soverignty and the concept of Native People in the Americas.  That was went over in debt in another thread. 
some parts maybe. But Aztlan was far from my mind in all this. I never brought up Aztlan . It came up in another thread. And so another thread was opened to get more into that tangent.
 Aztlan has no bearing on what I was saying. It can be applied though , if we want to go that route. But Aztlan is a place not a people.

My view on tribes, nations, clans, I got so many views . A lot of them go " .....on the other hand...." cause talking to so many other natives across the board, I still haven't found any consensus on any of these terms. So it makes it difficult to communicate when there are so many interpretations of what these words means.
i generally agree with sovereignty being included in the word tribe, clan, or nation, or whatever else there is out there, but sovereignty is all a these words mean. Like....a nation can have more than one tribe or clan. but sometimes we refer to the nation as tribe. Hard to tell what someone means "this time".
Whne I speak of my 'group" i am referring to what I know for sure these days. My circle. My danza group. I guess it can be called a heritage group in some ways, in other ways we are a tribe, but without any authority if that makes any sense. We don't represent the whole of the people of my larger group who aren't just dancers or even from my part of town.
  I kinda fell like , yeah we were a nation once , but now we are split up into "just" a lot of tribes.

A nation is a large body of people with a land base,government system, language, culture, spirituality, way of life, and divided into smalled group like bands or clans.

In Spirit

Offline koyoteh

  • Posts: 113
  • Yaqui and MesoAmerican
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2009, 07:33:16 pm »
real world reality is also that there is animosity between nations. It comes up from time to time. I won't say which tribes cause I don't want to feed into it. BUt I think we have all felt it at one time or another and may also have chosen not to feed into it, but we did recognize it.
I often wondered where the animosity actually originated. I don't believe its really about what we see  on t.v or the news. I believe that there is more likely some lingering grudges from way back that even our elders can't remember what the grudges are really about. Nor do the ones that hold grudges against us. What we do feel is when we get something held agaisnt us, or hold something against someone else but don't really know why.
Or maybe they do know some incident but can't explain why the incident really took place.
"Aztecs subjugated" some say yes, some say no . Hard to say. IF they did, its understandable that others would still hold a grudge and even have a fear of them/us rising again and doing it all over again. But did it really happen? According to the t.v. and books it did, but then this whole site is dedicated to exposing fake people and fake books right? Fakeness is out there.
  Then again it could be just propaganda created by govt and media for their own purposes. Happens all the time. They create a fear that benefits them. We fall for it.

So whats real then?
Quote
BUt, theoretically, ANYONE can go off and inhabit a place (hopefully morally an uninhabited place) and start their own nation/country. They can even get U.N. recognition if they want it.



Good Point here. 

Most countries and even many Indian Tribes and Empires are the result of Conquest.  Native Nations would go to war with each other all the time, and conquer another Tribe’s Territory.  The Aztec Empire subjugated who knows how many smaller Tribes and bands.   That can also be said of every modern Nation in the Americas starting from the Conquest in 1492.  Even in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc. conquest happened.   There is the “Ideal World” that we all wish we lived in, and then there is the “Real World” that we have to live in. 

Offline koyoteh

  • Posts: 113
  • Yaqui and MesoAmerican
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2009, 07:35:10 pm »
maybe a word , without discrediting a people , or without giving credit to people with no tribe could be......the DISBANDED. ?

Maybe that describes my people best, we were disbanded and still are. A disbanded nation.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2009, 05:36:28 am »
Sometimes you hear the word Wannabe Cherokee or Fake Cherokee.  And sometimes you hear the word Undocumented Cherokee and sometimes Podia. 

There are even documented Cherokees who don't qualify for citizenship in any of the 3 Federally Recognized Tribes.  These people have ancestors on different Cherokee rolls.  I would call these people, people of "Cherokee descent". 

For the others, I prefer the word "Cherokee Claimants". This is a neutral word.  Because if you say undocumented Cherokee or Podia, you are assuming their claims to be true, when they may or may not be.  And when people look racially white, no one can really say whether or not they had a great grandma who was Cherokee. But I really don't know how it is possible for all these undocumented Cherokees to even exist if you look at the history of our tribe.  Some might really have Cherokee blood, but some might not.  If you say someone is a PODIA,you are assuming that they in fact do have Cherokee blood.  Some might just have all white ancestors.  Who knows?  No one knows for sure.  So as far as the undocumented Cherokees go.  When I meet some of them, I can't really say one way or the other as to whether I think they are Cherokee or not or have Cherokee blood or not.  I guess there is always that doubt that I have, but at the same time, the stories they were told might really be true. Nobody knows.
 

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2009, 05:40:32 am »
Koyoteh, how do you know all of your people are people of Mexica decent?  Your case is different, cause I think you said your grandma spoke the language.  But what about the others?  Since your peole don't have rolls, how do you know who is or isn't Mexica.  Also, do you accept for example, people who say they might be Otomi, or Mayan, or Zapotec? 

That's one of the criticisms people have of the undocumented Cherokee tribes.  That they just take anyone that says  "I'm Cherokee"

Offline koyoteh

  • Posts: 113
  • Yaqui and MesoAmerican
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2009, 06:46:03 pm »
i admit , its a problem. Or rather a challenge. Your question is the first question we ask ourselves.
we ask ourselves , others ask us, we present the our question to others - others from what we think would be our nation and other nations .. their elders. They all tell us the same things. "you are one of us". This is coming from ALL the elders of all the nations we have ever talked to. See elders of our nations and from other nations , as older people, see things and say things different than what you may think. I personally witness on many occasions , elders from many nations tell their people one thing than tell me something completely the opposite. Even to the point of making fun of their own people and kids. I don't say it as a put down. I see it as a point of them being human and wanting to have fun. I see that many times they just want to tell people things but they can only tell people who are willing to really listen to them ,and more often than not these days, their own people's youth just don't want to listen, so they come talk to us. We are wiling to listen. But this presents a new problem, we AREN'T  their people. so respectfully, we never mention this problem. Now i am breaking the respect by telling you this but I find it relevant here.

Who am I? Edlers tell me , it really doesn't matter. We all need to choose. To take a stand. To have a starting point. Yes I have more than just Mexica in me . I have Yaqui. I have mentioned that before. I also have Zacateca. I had to make a decision as to what way I would choose. But pretty much back then we were all part of the same world and alliances and such things. I say even under the same flag. So does it really matter? I chose to follow my mexica ways, cause that is what is here and available to me. Its the least catholic these days. Yauqis have become very catholic and I don't want to be catholic. Yes lots of mexica have also become catholics, but lots of us have turned away from that.

And just like our people did in the old days, however we did it, we accept others into our groups, as our groups have accepted me.
With htat how could we turn anyone away? Turning people away based on their being disbanded or diconnected would be like denying ourselves. We believe in whats called IN lak Ech its mayn for  You are my other me . With that how can I deny you or anyone ? How could you deny me? (sounds kinda whiny, huh?, but is just to make the point of the tradition)

Koyoteh, how do you know all of your people are people of Mexica decent?  Your case is different, cause I think you said your grandma spoke the language.  But what about the others?  Since your peole don't have rolls, how do you know who is or isn't Mexica.  Also, do you accept for example, people who say they might be Otomi, or Mayan, or Zapotec? 

That's one of the criticisms people have of the undocumented Cherokee tribes.  That they just take anyone that says  "I'm Cherokee"
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 04:41:55 pm by koyoteh »

Offline koyoteh

  • Posts: 113
  • Yaqui and MesoAmerican
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2009, 06:54:06 pm »
theres another tradition of just accepting someones word. Its on them after that. Accepting someones word isn't so much about the other persons being honest or not - thats their responsibility. Its more about ones own personal character. Do I have self respect? Do I have self dignity? Do I have common courtesy? if someone later shows themselves to be false, okay then, I no longer trust them, but I don't have to destroy my character by being a dick. That would be dishonor to my mother.

Someone  says they are cherokee, its not for me to say. I say "okay then , maybe you are , maybe you aren't , only you would know" if they are does it change things? should it? If they aren't does it change things? should it? In both cases , shouldn't I still remain respectful and honor my parents and elders? My upbringing? Maybe they aren't cherokee, but are they good people?

If they are bad people then should I tear up my mind and heart and gut making myself sick by behaving , justifiably, with animosity? or should i just stay away from them? and use my energy more constructively elsewhere?

even this talkign could be considered a waste of time ,but I see it as constructive in finding ways to communicate. exercises in writing clearly. And that ain't easy.

Koyoteh, how do you know all of your people are people of Mexica decent?  Your case is different, cause I think you said your grandma spoke the language.  But what about the others?  Since your peole don't have rolls, how do you know who is or isn't Mexica.  Also, do you accept for example, people who say they might be Otomi, or Mayan, or Zapotec? 

That's one of the criticisms people have of the undocumented Cherokee tribes.  That they just take anyone that says  "I'm Cherokee"

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2009, 08:28:03 pm »
Quote
Someone  says they are cherokee, its not for me to say. I say "okay then , maybe you are , maybe you aren't , only you would know" if they are does it change things? should it? If they aren't does it change things? should it? In both cases , shouldn't I still remain respectful and honor my parents and elders? My upbringing? Maybe they aren't cherokee, but are they good people?

If they are bad people then should I tear up my mind and heart and gut making myself sick by behaving , justifiably, with animosity? or should i just stay away from them? and use my energy more constructively elsewhere?

I agree that all people regradless of their race, religion, culture, should be respected.  I respect everyone whether or not they are Indian or Cherokee.  I agree that there are good people in all races. 

But my point is that Indian Nations are based on "blood"  Some have different BQ requriements, or have their membership based on a matrilineal line, etc.  But it still comes down to the "blood"  That is the conerstone of citizenship in Indian Nations. 

It's not like for example, an immigrant comes to the US, intergrates, learns English and applies for citizenshp.  Also, in Mexico, you can marry a Mexican citizen, live there, learn some history,  and later apply for Mexican Citizenship.

In Indian Nations its not like that.  You either have the "blood" or you don't.  There are Tribal Members of some Indian Nations that don't know nothing about the ways of their tribe.  But they are "of the blood", and members of the tribe.

Then you have maybe whites or blacks, that live on or near a reservation, and learn the ways, and become integrated, and participate in ceramony ect.   But they will never be able to become a citizen or member of that tribe because they are not "of the blood"

I agree with this.  If you are not "of Indian blood" of a Tribe, your not a member of that tribe.

Thats not to say,  that there are not a lot of highly respected whites or blacks recognized in other ways by a tribe.  I know there are whites for example, that have done  a lot of good things for Indians and Indian Tribes and maybe even some blacks.  But I'm never going to recognize them as someone of "my blood" or as someone of my Tribe.  Thats how I see things.


Offline koyoteh

  • Posts: 113
  • Yaqui and MesoAmerican
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2009, 12:55:10 am »
is it or is it not , for some tribes at least , their right to adopt or admit people into their tribe? I thought it they did. They should if they are sovereign in theory at least.

If that is the case, then that would include natives of any amount of blood being able to be part of another tribe at that tribes discretion. So also it would be possible for a tribe to allow someone in who has no blood at all. That would also be at their discretion. That probably would be unlikely to happen, but I can't say it never happened. And if it did happen, then shouldn't that tribes decision be respected?  Not liked just respected because of their sovereignty.


I know one guy who was adopted into a tribe. A clan to be more specific. The tribe itself was or is still working on the fed rec part. but he was adopted in. The adoptee was of another u.s. tribal descent but wasn't living with his people after his grandma died.


Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2009, 03:02:09 am »
Quote
is it or is it not , for some tribes at least , their right to adopt or admit people into their tribe? I thought it they did. They should if they are sovereign in theory at least.

If that is the case, then that would include natives of any amount of blood being able to be part of another tribe at that tribes discretion. So also it would be possible for a tribe to allow someone in who has no blood at all. That would also be at their discretion. That probably would be unlikely to happen, but I can't say it never happened. And if it did happen, then shouldn't that tribes decision be respected?  Not liked just respected because of their sovereignty.

I know one guy who was adopted into a tribe. A clan to be more specific. The tribe itself was or is still working on the fed rec part. but he was adopted in. The adoptee was of another u.s. tribal descent but wasn't living with his people after his grandma died.

I agree that yes, it is up to the Tribe as to whether or not they want to adopt a non-Indian into the Tribe.  When you say adopt or admit, I'm asuming you mean granting Citizenship or Tribal Membership.  I think back in the 1800's, my tribe granted citizenship by marriage to intermarried whites.  Meaning, if you married a Tribal member by blood, you would have citizenship.  But it's not like that no more. 

Although, I agree it should be the Tribe's decision in this matter, I'm againts the idea in principle.  There are some notable exceptions however.  Such as the case of Will Thomas being adopted into the Eastern Band of Cherokees.  He was a white man, who did a lot for the Cherokees.  In that case I would be for it.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Holland_Thomas

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: "you ain't indian if you get kicked out of your tribe"
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2009, 03:10:13 am »
But it would really have to be someone who really did something spectacular for the Tribe.  Not just any white or black that comes along and hangs out with the Tribe and participates in ceramony. 

There's also exceptions like the case of certain Shawnees and Delaware who are citizens of the Cherokee Nation.  But cases like this are the exception.