Author Topic: Pablo Russell  (Read 134857 times)

Offline naapiakii

  • Posts: 4
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2010, 08:40:08 pm »
indeed, you make very good points annomninous

and you have in fact, truly bought it all into a little more focus, yes indeed the issue of crossing boundaries from helper to lover is quite clearly one of the reoccurring themes in this story, and yet it is quite a complex and layered issue

spiritual abuse and sexual abuse are not uncommonly tied together in first nations communities.  i am not excusing or condoning this, but pointing it out, and speaking what many are unable to say.  i think we all know the root cause of this legacy, ..and continue to support the healing of religious/residential schools survivors and be aware of the intergenerational trauma that continues.  most of the many first nations ppl i know are victims of sexual abuse and/ or insest- almost all actually.

i am not saying or assuming that this is the case with pablo, but making a bigger point about the communities at large, and a realistic picture.  today we have many pipe carriers, sundancers, helpers and elders that do not come from a purity vacuum, it seems we are all on a long journey towards rebuilding from oppression of persons, and ethocide of peoples.  sometimes i think that this generation has left some slim pickings sometimes, but there are those who have been chosen to carry the gifts forward to the next generation

western culture really does far divide sexuality and spirituality..."minister" brings up images of a white robed celibate or a wholesome family man.  this collective denial of the sexual nature of the 'spiritual man' does often lead to abuse of sexuality, which is actually a gift.  indigenous worldview is more apt to accept and embrace sexuality, and its connection to the sacred.  it is this contradiction which is found at very core of this common issue of such "sexual exploitations" ... it is a perpetuation of crossed boundaries, by wounded and confused persons

yes it appears pablo is one to cross boundaries that at times he shouldnt.  perhaps he has not fully learned to respect women, and the role they play in his life.  the very fact that he is still a lonely man seeking comfort in the affections of young beautiful ladies speaks to the likelihood that he still sees a woman, not fully as an alli in his work, but as an activity in his play.  i think someday he will come to understand this, and if/when it does happen he would be gifted and better guided.  i am of the belief that even his misguided actions of 'selling' (is he really doing that these days?) of ceremonies stems from his lack of womans wisdom in his daily life, an imbalance.

it is a sad story,  yet the saddest part is that this type of thing is more common than ppl might think.  there are in fact many many men who act in the same way...only most of them dont venture all the way across the sea, and end up with such a high profile, and on a site like this ....but believe me, there are ....and there are also many woman who share the story of being confused and mislead by this sort of thing....so no, we cant excuse or ignore it..... we really need to come to understand it as sisters, mothers, daughters and grandmothers, and the rights and responsibilities that entails.....  understanding our own power as women is an important part of stopping these abuse cycles, and correcting the "imbalances of power" .....we as women hold great power in the direction of our families, the fate of our men, and we need to reclaim this

but in the end, we all have to walk on our own two feet, and we are accountable for what we do... so im not going to judge pablo, he has his own accountability to contend with, and whether or not he harms .... for what we do to others, we do to ourselves
 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 03:51:30 am by naapiakii »

Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2010, 09:16:55 pm »
An adult sexually contacting young peoples and especially an adult in a supposed leadership role of ceremony.. is wrong. And it is not wrong to make that judgment and call it wrong.

just my o.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 10:29:06 pm by critter »
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline naapiakii

  • Posts: 4
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2010, 11:17:06 pm »
I think that each person can choose what to offer to a relationship
If someone offers monogamous commitment to someone else
then let it be so, but it does not automatically entitle them to receive the same thing in return
that again, is the choice of that person to offer it
Making the choice to engage in  committal relationships is often a forum for challenges and growth
But some people choose not to...and some do, but then change their minds
and choose again

But in the end, it is a matter of choice.  And you only get what you put into it.

I doubt Pablo has ever forced someone to do anything they didnt want to do.  Hes certainly not a forceful or coy man, and hes appreciative of confident and intelligent women, not underage girls or anything like that.  But he does sleep with women that are wooed by their own romantic notions, ......and yes the scenario is also fueled by his lust and ego.  I think for the most part, he has left a trail of broken hearts, and angry women.......i guess what im saying is hes not one of those creepy ones that tries to touch you inappropriately in a ceremony or anything of that nature, no he is respectful in this way




Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #78 on: March 24, 2010, 01:52:47 am »
I don't care what consenting adults choose for their self, but taking advantage in such situations nullifies the idea of consenting adults.  

That's just my O.  I don't expect anyone to agree with me.  
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 10:30:01 pm by critter »
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3288
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #79 on: March 24, 2010, 04:49:19 pm »
I read this and I think:  it's as though we've all been brought back to square one in regards to what is spiritual and are all having to re-find and re-claim what we already know.

With respect, I ask you to be mindful of the fact that, in general, people in this forum are not rootless seekers. Many here are rather traditional and not having to question or start over. Many (most?) here are not part of the mainstream, dominant culture, so please pay attention when you start to make statements like "we all", especially when they come from a non-NDN perspective. And please stay on topic. While analysis of a situation is relevant, if you want to opine at length about your personal feelings about the general concepts this makes you think of, please take it to etc or another forum. Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 01:21:44 am by Kathryn »

Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #80 on: March 24, 2010, 06:24:26 pm »
Ah, sorry, was replying in regards to Pablo Russell and the many frauds ndn and non who have taken to selling spirituality.. and then replied to the topic of Pablo Russell being abusive to women.  I thought I was on topic.

My mistake to use the terms 'as though we all'.. when obviously it is only those (ndn and non) who are confiscating the ndn spirituality and selling it or profiting in some other ways off of it.. and again, I thought it was on topic for this thread considering the posts beforehand that were referenced and that I was replying to. 

No offenses intended of course.  I'm obviously just a non-ndn idiot. 

Be well.
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline AnnOminous

  • Posts: 99
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #81 on: March 24, 2010, 07:07:32 pm »
Quote
I think that each person can choose what to offer to a relationship
If someone offers monogamous commitment to someone else
then let it be so, but it does not automatically entitle them to receive the same thing in return
that again, is the choice of that person to offer it
Making the choice to engage in  committal [sic] relationships is often a forum for challenges and growth
But some people choose not to...and some do, but then change their minds
and choose again

But in the end, it is a matter of choice.  And you only get what you put into it.
I think you are saying that men and women have equal rights and responsibilities to choose and design the sorts of sexual relationships they are involved in.  Am I right?

I think you are suggesting that there is an equal playing field when it comes to relationships, and that men and women share a social equality that negates the dynamics of privilege and power. Yes?

And I also think you are suggesting that if you put enough into a relationship you will get good things back.  And if you “only get what you put into it”, as you say, being victimized by mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, financial or sexual abuse in your relationship is because you….

Wait a minute.  You probably didn’t mean that at all.  Right?

The fact is when a spiritual leader engages in sex with a student, it is, for all intents and purposes, sexual abuse.  The reason?  There is no mutual consent.  It is a “power-over” relationship.  If it is a member of the clergy, a teacher at school, a medical doctor, a psychologist or social worker……all of these professions have very clear ethical and professional standards to inform and decide their activities with those who have come to depend upon them for instruction, guidance, advice and support.  These ethical standards are to provide protection for the vulnerable, and accountability for those in the position of power.

When there is a relationship with an imbalance of power, trust and vulnerability (like in the helping professions mentioned above), by extension there can be no consent in a sexual relationship.

Too bad there is not a published document for ethical guidelines for “medicine men.”  But that’s one of the reasons this forum exists.

Quote
I doubt Pablo has ever forced someone to do anything they didnt want to do

In the absence of consent, this is exactly what he is doing.

Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2010, 07:22:12 pm »

The fact is when a spiritual leader engages in sex with a student, it is, for all intents and purposes, sexual abuse.  The reason?  There is no mutual consent.  It is a “power-over” relationship.  If it is a member of the clergy, a teacher at school, a medical doctor, a psychologist or social worker……all of these professions have very clear ethical and professional standards to inform and decide their activities with those who have come to depend upon them for instruction, guidance, advice and support.  These ethical standards are to provide protection for the vulnerable, and accountability for those in the position of power.

When there is a relationship with an imbalance of power, trust and vulnerability (like in the helping professions mentioned above), by extension there can be no consent in a sexual relationship.

Too bad there is not a published document for ethical guidelines for “medicine men.”  But that’s one of the reasons this forum exists.

Quote
I doubt Pablo has ever forced someone to do anything they didnt want to do

In the absence of consent, this is exactly what he is doing.


my opinion exactly.. thanks for stating it clearer, i couldn't agree more!! 
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3288
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #83 on: March 24, 2010, 07:30:25 pm »
I think you are saying that men and women have equal rights and responsibilities to choose and design the sorts of sexual relationships they are involved in.  Am I right?

I think you are suggesting that there is an equal playing field when it comes to relationships, and that men and women share a social equality that negates the dynamics of privilege and power. Yes?

And I also think you are suggesting that if you put enough into a relationship you will get good things back.  And if you “only get what you put into it”, as you say, being victimized by mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, financial or sexual abuse in your relationship is because you….

Wait a minute.  You probably didn’t mean that at all.  Right?

The fact is when a spiritual leader engages in sex with a student, it is, for all intents and purposes, sexual abuse.  The reason?  There is no mutual consent.  It is a “power-over” relationship.  If it is a member of the clergy, a teacher at school, a medical doctor, a psychologist or social worker……all of these professions have very clear ethical and professional standards to inform and decide their activities with those who have come to depend upon them for instruction, guidance, advice and support.  These ethical standards are to provide protection for the vulnerable, and accountability for those in the position of power.

When there is a relationship with an imbalance of power, trust and vulnerability (like in the helping professions mentioned above), by extension there can be no consent in a sexual relationship.

Too bad there is not a published document for ethical guidelines for “medicine men.”  But that’s one of the reasons this forum exists.

Quote
I doubt Pablo has ever forced someone to do anything they didnt want to do

In the absence of consent, this is exactly what he is doing.

Thank you, Ann. I've really appreciated your comments here. Thank you for laying it out like this.

Offline naapiakii

  • Posts: 4
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2010, 06:40:59 am »
Well lets see here, the topic of this thread is "frauds and fakes" or something of that range.  I joined this discussion to clarify that indeed Pablo is not a fraud or a fake.  He may be misguided and off track, but he never claims to be something he is not.   He has earned his ceremonial rites are per proper protocol,  Annonimous somewhat agrees, but claims her main issue with Pablo is "sexual exploitation" of women.  

So I shared my thoughts on that.  It is a complex issue.  Nevertheless, that does not make Pablo a "fraud".  It might make him a "rezdawg" or a "player", but NOT a fake or fraud.  As I clearly stated there are many men like that.  Most of them dont venture overseas though, so the woman they become lovers with are most often FN, and you wont hear much about it.  Well not here anyway, ci?

I also tried to point out that part of the problem here is perceiving these "teachers" as teachers.  This is partially a cross-cultural miscommunication too.  If I go to a sweat, that does not make the person running the lodge 'my teacher'.  Teacher is something earned over time.  That is traditional governance.  

Western culture likes to put a robe or a hat on someone and have everyone else abdicate their power to them.  It is only the power you give away that can be taken from you. Spirituality is about personal responsibility, and has nothing to do with seeking through intercession of a minister, guru, teacher or "medicine man".  It is the very misconception that someone else should have spiritual authority over another that helps to perpetuate this.  You cannot give a man a pipe and expect him to entirely cease being the man he is, or simply put a feather in his hair and deem him saintly.  He is always going to be a "work in progress" and if he eventually earns the respect of people, then so be it.  And should he be respectable enough to partner with a strong and powerful woman, the he will be even more respected.  That is traditional governance.

It truly is those romanticized ideologies about 'indians' that causes lots of problems here.   Why should a couple of workshops and a sweat make someone your teacher? someone who has power over you?  

What I have learned is that we women are powerful.  That it is our strength to continue to give life, and infuse our families lives with love.  It is us who give guidance and counsel to our men.  The only power they can have over us is that which we give away.  Unfortunately there are many men who's minds are clouded with colonial patriarchy, and many sisters equally as naive.  And only those men who are blessed with a woman who knows and expresses her own power, will benefit from her gifts.

My advice to woman is to consider carefully when seeking spiritual counsel from a man.  Better yet, you may sometimes choose to seek a grandmother or sister to help you find your answers.  Know your power and use it wisely.

I really don't think Pablo is a fake or fraud.  He holds many gifts including storytelling, artistry and healing.  His ceremonies are not made up or stolen.  The ethical issues surrounding him dont negate that, he still holds his bundle and his lodge regardless.  

Perhaps at times he is the fool, but always genuine.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 06:50:25 am by naapiakii »

Offline ska

  • Posts: 162
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2010, 02:21:37 pm »
I must say something here. 

Ska I like what you have to say about language.  Now, this too you must know: Pablo's first language is indeed Blackfoot.  He is Kainai (Blood) and is in many ways, a traditional person in his roots, having had much of his upbringing as his grandmothers 'eldest grandchild'.  She was as second mother to him.  He knows many old stories, and he did not even learn english until he went to school.  He has a very traditional family actually.

As a young man, he was more into rodeo than ceremonies.  (There were many many years where ceremony was a secret affair on reserves, and everyone was encouraged to be catholic cowboys instead.)  Eventually though, Pablo found his was though that and became a Sundancer.  His elder, and second father, Morris Crow, brought the Lakota sundance lodge to the Blood reserve, by gifting elders in S Dakota and earning the rites as per protocal.  Pablo, in turn, did receive those rites.  He has danced more times than any other person I have met.  This all happened many years ago, and it is just recently that some of this is being relaized, and coming in to the bigger picture.

So for the last 10 years or so pablo has been doing his euro tours.  Im not going to say whether this is right, or wrong, because essentially, that is between him and the Creator.  I do know that it isnt entirely something he 'chose'.  It sort of fell to him, and for various reasons he has been back forth across the ocean many times.  If things are as they were a few years back, then I can guarantee you he gets homesick often. 

His conduct does come into question.  Is he doing the right thing? the wrong thing? Perhaps he has made some foolish choices.  I know he has in the past had difficulties with relationships and addictions.  I hope and pray he continues to heal,as we all do.  He has alot of weaknesses, and also a lot of strengths.  But he most definitely not a 'fake'. 

 

 


Dear naapiiaki,

I will say it once again: it is clear Mr. Russell does not speak the Lakota language.  There's nothing "traditional" about the way he is conducting himself.  If he's a traditional Kanai, why is he not speaking the Blood language?  Why is he not practicing (and selling) Blackfoot ways?  Makes no sense whatsoever.  Just because I live in Salish territories, have learned some Halkomeylem, and have had the privilege of participating in certain ceremonies does not give me the right to try to teach about these ceremonies, pass them on to others, or try to act like I have the ability to interpret these ways to anyone else.  I have never seen my husband or any other traditional Lakota person try to practice the sacred ways of other Nations.  He does not need to.  He knows his own way of life, which starts with humility, not pride and ego and showing off.

I don't know Mr. Russell, so I won't pretend that I know anything about his background, just on the basis of what I have read by an anonymous source on the internet.  But in my mind, the behavior I witnessed in the videos posted by AnnOminous was not that of someone who is well-versed in Lakota culture or ceremony.  On other hand, I could totally believe that this person is a Christianized Indian cowboy, as he seems very assimilated to White norms of behavior.  In non-Native society we learn just a little bit, then act like we know everything.  I wanted to review all the videos that were posted by Ann because I remember Mr. Russell could not sing any of the words of the song he was singing, nor could he play a hand drum.  But the videos have been removed by the person who posted them!

Your confusion is evident in the way you speak about the Lakota people's way of life.  For example, the Sun Dance is not a "lodge" as you call it.  And how could Morris Crow, who is just one man, pass on a ceremony to a whole nation?  Does not make sense.  There is no getting past the reality that many traditionals are deeply concerned about the exploitation of their ceremonies outside of their territories.

And this business of "earning rights through protocols" is kind of whack, too.   I'm reminded of the exploiters on the Rosebud reservation that sell workshops to people to be "certified" as "firekeepers" and "pipe carriers".  Hard to believe people give their money for this, even harder to see them bragging about it! I've never heard the term "protocol" used in relation to ceremony by traditional people.  My husband thinks that people off the rez are using "protocols" in communities that are disconnected from traditional practices, and these same "protocols" are often used to control others and create hierarchies of power.  Off the rez, people don't know each other and so we can get away with all kinds of fakery, far away from the eyes and ears of those who know.

Anyone who wants to learn ceremony from someone who does not speak the language is only kidding themselves about what they are "learning".

My husband asked me to share something here.  He has observed that exploiters come out of the woodwork to use the names of elders who are vulnerable (as in living on the brink of survival) or who are dead!  These Elders are not able to defend themselves against the misuse of their names and reputations.  It is very obvious to see when someone is exploiting the Lakota way just to make money or gain status, because they can't speak the language and they speak a kind of nuage, greeting card speak.   They are not practicing ceremony, they're chasing CEREMONEY.

Finally, Mr. Russell's alleged behavior towards women is worrisome, dangerous and sickening.  I pray for him today, too, as there is a spiritual price to pay when we muck around with the spiritual yearnings of others.  Consenting adults strutting their egos around each other is another matter altogether.  It makes me sad to see people claiming to practice traditional Lakota ways, then turning around and being so disrespectful of women.  Lakota ways demand a great deal of respect towards women.  They have beautiful, gentle, loving practices and norms that guide the behavior of men and women that, to me, seem deeply reverant towards women.  To this day, my husband does not talk to my mom or sisters directly, unless they talk to him first.

How can one learn anything about Lakota culture if they are willing to pay money for ceremony, follow a braggart around, or attend "ceremonies"  by those who claim Lakota knowledge but are far away from Lakota territories and don't speak the language?  The learning can not come when we are still fooling ourselves.

Pablo Russell is referred to as a fraud and a fake because he is not Lakota, does not speak the language, yet claims to know and conduct Lakota ceremonies.

best, ska


Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3288
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #86 on: March 25, 2010, 05:16:56 pm »
Well lets see here, the topic of this thread is "frauds and fakes" or something of that range.  I joined this discussion to clarify that indeed Pablo is not a fraud or a fake.  He may be misguided and off track, but he never claims to be something he is not.   He has earned his ceremonial rites are per proper protocol,  Annonimous somewhat agrees, but claims her main issue with Pablo is "sexual exploitation" of women. 

Sexual exploitation is incredibly serious. I don't care if someone learned the ceremonies traditionally and was given the rights to pass them on, if they are using their position to pressure people into sex, if they are lying to people to get sex and money from them, they are a fraud. They are exploiting people, so they are an exploiter. Someone who disrespects the people so badly can not in any way be considered "genuine".

Perhaps at times he is the fool, but always genuine.

Perhaps you could do the traditional thing here and have the courtesy to go over to the Members Introductions section and introduce yourself. Right now you're just an anonymous bunch of words on the Internet, so who knows if you have any idea what is "genuine".

Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2010, 10:31:34 pm »
I edited my posts so hopefully they streamline better into the topic. I apologize for over empathizing my view. 

I read this and I think:  it's as though we've all been brought back to square one in regards to what is spiritual and are all having to re-find and re-claim what we already know.

With respect, I ask you to be mindful of the fact that, in general, people in this forum are not rootless seekers. Many here are rather traditional and not having to question or start over. Many (most?) here are not part of the mainstream, dominant culture so please pay attention when you start to make statements like "we all", especially when they come from a non-NDN perspective. And please stay on topic. If you want to opine on your personal feelings about sexual and spiritual and boundaries and betrayals, take it to etc or another forum. Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 01:20:56 am by Kathryn »
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline justanother1

  • Posts: 1
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #88 on: July 28, 2010, 11:57:17 pm »
I accidentally came upon this forum when doing some research and I would like to comment.

I am a First Nations person.  I have known Pablo for many years and I attended and helped the Morris Crow Sundance for many years as well.  I am not an Elder, Spiritual Advisor or anyone special - I am simply another First Nations person on my own path trying to do the best I can each and every day.

I have met many of the Europeans that came to the Sundance for their own reasons, some have even been to my home and communicate with me once they go home and come again to visit when they journey back to Canada. 

There are a variety of people coming to attend ceremonies and the Sundance in particular.  Some seem to be seeking help and guidance in their own lives, some seem genuinely interested in learning our history and ways, some seem lost and looking for answers, and some that seem to  want to help make amends for past history and abuses perpetrated against First Nations people.

The thing that I like to pass along to all those visitors and new comers to our community is that we are just people.  No better, no worse that any other people on the planet.  As in the mainstream community, there are truly amazing and inspiring people that can touch your life and make you want to be a better person and help make the world better.  There are also those that for whatever reason seem to want to take advantage of their position, rank or influence and after they have affected your life it leaves you feeling lost,  betrayed and hurt. 

There are both these extremes in every culture in the world and for the most part - I believe that most people fit somewhere in the middle on most days.

The guidance that I have shared with every visitor or newcomer that seeks my guidance or story is  to TRUST YOURSELF!  One of the most important teachings I ever received (to date) is that the Creator did not leave you here with a guide book to help you on your journey here.  Instead he left you with your instincts.  Your instincts will never fail you - if you feel confused about if someone is a fake, using you or something just doesn't feel right - just take a few moments breathe deeply at least ten times and then ask the question.  The first answer that comes to you is most likely the right one for you.

When it comes to this issue concerning whether or not Pablo or anyone is a "Fraud" or doing things in a "correct way" I use some guidelines to help ME make good decisions and perhaps it may help any from your community who are unsure if a First Nations person if "for real" and can be trusted.

-   Who are they, where do they come from and what rights (traditional rights) do they have (where is the information about them coming from).
-  What do others say about them, especially those that have relationships with them or those from the same community.
-  How do they represent themselves in the world.  Do they "preach" a clean and sober lifestyle and then go home and abuse drugs and alcohol.  Do they talk about respect of all beings and then go
   home and beat the tar out of their partner.  Do they talk about responsibility and then gamble away their money and beg, borrow or steal from the people that follow them to get themselves out of
   trouble.
- MOST IMPORTANTLY!... Would I trust this individual with the person I love and cherish the most on this planet.
-  Trust Yourself - you know the right answer!

One Elder taught me that if a "spiritual helper" (my words not his) is wearing a Rolex watch or asks for money up front - RUN - AS FAST AS YOU CAN THE OTHER WAY.  It was funny when he said it but it has proven to be very wise guidance.

The first time I approached an Elder, my friend told me to give him money and tobacco which I handed over to him just after we met together and I was asking him for help.  He kindly took the tobacco and gave me back the money.  He told me that the Creator gave him his gift to help people for free - he didn't pay for it and to ask for money for what was a willingly free gift is not right.  He then told me that after (he helped me) if I wanted to gift him that it would be okay.

A while later, I attended a type of ceremony that I had not attended before and once again the same friend told me to take money and tuck it inside the blankets I was giving to the Ceremony Leader then put the tobacco on the top.  At the ceremony my friend gave the Elder her gifts and went back to sit down.  Then I gave the Elder the gifts which were exactly the same as my friends gifts.  He picked up the money from between the blankets and gave me a stern look and handed me back the money.  He raised his voice and told me that what he does, he does because the Creator gave him these gifts and there is no money attached to it.  In front of everyone there he told me to take the money out and to come back when I had put it away.

I had never met the second Elder before - he didn't know me but (somehow) he knew that I had already received the teaching that money was not to be changed hands in exchange for spiritual help.  It was an embarrassing lesson to learn in front of all those present but I have never forgotten and share this with others that I meet to help them understand. 

In the way I have been taught - you gift as you have received and with the recognition of the value for the help in your own life.  One Elder saved my son's life and I chose to gift him with how important my son is to me in my mind as I offered the gifts. 

To someone struggling daily to put bread on the table for their family-  offering tobacco and gifting  food or their last few pennies is the most precious thing in the world.  To  someone that owns three houses and doesn't have a financial care in the world the gifting would be on a completely different spectrum. 

The last thing I would like to share is that like some of the people on this forum I too have been hurt, betrayed, ripped off or what ever you can call it when it comes to learning from, so called,  "Elders/Medicine People/ Spiritual Helpers"/.  What I have learned is that there is a lesson and a gift in every experience - you just have to figure out which one is which, appreciate the gift and learn the lesson or you will be repeating it again in the future. 

In the meantime, trust yourself - when you have a bad feeling about someone or something trust it.  No matter what happens never stop trying to do what feels right for you.

Many people have given their insight based on their own experiences, their knowledge base, their teachings now everyone has to weigh that all and balance it against their own value systems and what feels right for each of them.

Wise rules from an Elder - Learn from others experiences as you may not live long enough to experience them all yourself.




Offline sam

  • Posts: 38
Re: Pablo Russell
« Reply #89 on: January 22, 2011, 10:38:12 am »
just gonna add about the donation fraud information that the donation goes to his tribe
no it goes to his pocket and just to his pocket.would wonder what the gouverment would say about all this big cash under the table.
also he starts to sell out ceremonies he is not suppost to run (horn society ceremonies )
together with joachim irmer he run a sundance in canada of corse the most of the ppl are white.the donation is 400 for each
but its called donations