Author Topic: Lakota Leathers  (Read 35561 times)

Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 05:39:30 am »
Here is a summary of some of the changes Kenny might make to his website. Of course, this only matters if what he states can be validated.

<excerpts from my email to Lakota Leathers with suggestions>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) Regarding suggestion to the site, you have already taken the most questionable one down, the donation thing. While admirable, this raised some red flags (no pun intended) and having a non-Indian collect donations always gets the ire up. That was a good move in my opinion. That does not mean you still can't solicit donations, just don't take them yourself.

2) The second thing that needs to be fixed is the apparent inconsistency regarding the base of operations. the home page says SD, the Contact us says TN, and although it is straight and up front, it is still not clear and confusing, thus another red flag. Clarify that on your website.

3)  I am unsure and unclear on how and if that certification thing works or is real. Someone mentioned it in the thread and that rang a bell with me. I seem to recall that there is some form of certification or documentation that something is actually "Indian made." I believe the forum folks can assist you but you may need to re-state the question and request for assistance in a stand-along post so it is not buried in a lot of words. If that does not work I will help you find the information as I feel responsible, in no small degree, towards adding to your burden today.

4) Also, there does need to be more information about how you are specifically helping. To show Del McCoury but no artisans seems out of balance to me, especially when you are relying on them for the goods. Somehow, there must be a way to balance their privacy with the need to promote them. And I do mean, promote them.

5) There are probably a few other tweaks but I can't think of them now. These are the main ones that popped up. Also go back and read the second post in that thread and there is an analysis of your site. Absorb that too.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would put forth to the forum folks here, that this is probably a rare opportunity to have input into a website such as this.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 08:11:19 am by clearwater »

Offline ska

  • Posts: 162
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2010, 06:06:31 am »
The Indian Arts and Crafts Act (1990) prohibits misrepresentation in the marketing and production of Indian arts and crafts in the USA.

The following statement is taken from the website of the Indian Arts and Craft Board: "It is illegal to offer or display for sale, or sell any art or craft product in a manner that falsely suggests it is Indian produced, an Indian product, or the product of a particular Indian or Indian Tribe or Indian arts and crafts organization, resident within the United States. For a first time violation of the Act, an individual can face civil or criminal penalties up to a $250,000 fine or a 5-year prison term, or both. If a business violates the Act, it can face civil penalties or can be prosecuted and fined up to $1,000,000."

This statement, and many more details, can be found at the following url:

http://www.doi.gov/iacb/act.html

Offline Lakota Leathers

  • Posts: 7
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2010, 02:34:22 pm »
.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 09:10:45 pm by Lakota Leathers »

Offline ska

  • Posts: 162
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2010, 03:45:21 pm »
Dear Sir,

I must confess to finding your comments more confusing than illuminating.

Either you are a businessman, and you are paying the people that you subcontract for the arts and crafts that they provide to you for sale, or you are "helping" them by donating your time, energy, money and good will.  Forgive me if I am missing something, but you seem to be conflating the idea of running with the business with the Christian notion of charity.  You are justifying the business by claiming that you do charity work.  If I am mistaken, please forgive my confusion.

I'm quite familiar with Kyle grocery since they regularly accept my credit card (my stepsons and many friends and relatives live in Kyle).  Never heard of them giving cash advances there, but what do I know? I know that I'm not the only mom/grandma who phones in an order and says "don't let the kids be spending it all on pop and cigarettes!" But if you want to send money to people on Pine Ridge, why don't you just wire it through Western Union?  There's Western Union right in Kyle at Angel's (across from Kyle Dam road) and they used to have one in Sharp's Corner, too, and also in Martin.

I can understand your reservations about putting up pictures that show you doling our charity - it kind of defeats the purpose, does it not?  I can see how it makes you look good, but how does it help the people?  Sharing brings as many gifts to the giver as the receiver, maybe more, so why advertise it?  Many Lakotas that I know that follow their traditional way, well, they don't really seem to be into bragging and showing off.  I've had Elders point out role models to me on the rez, and they always point out individuals who serve the people in quiet, humble ways.

Sir, I have no evidence that this business of yours is run by Lakotas, or even that it includes the work of Lakotas, as all I have to go on is your word that an anonymous elderly Lakota man, who is nameless, sanctions your work, and all the artisans that share their work with you are also anonymous, nameless.  In my experience, this is not how a business works.

Furthermore, I want to point out that there are many independent business on Pine Ridge, some amazing artisan ventures, and Lakota people who are working hard to build more business capacity for and amongst their people.  I think, for those of us who want to work as allies with Indian people in Indian nations, we should do all we can to make sure we are not trying to speak for the people, or represent ourselves as rescuing those who have never needed to be rescued.

I completely understand your desire to not have the government involved, to give from the heart, to not have your good work and heartfelt sharing rubber-stamped and produced in triplicate, on-file in some bureaucratic office.  But if this is the case, why advertise?  Do it quietly, and don't draw attention to yourself.  Learn from the people.  Lakotas have been running their own cottage industries for a long time, supporting each other through non-monetary ventures.

If you want to run a business, use the internet to drum up more customers, if you want to use the Lakota name then, by golly, you need to provide evidence that Lakotas are involved.

best, ska

Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2010, 04:45:57 pm »
My company has been publically scrutinized on this forum. I'd like to have an explanation on just how this forum works other than conjecture, rumors, and possible malicous intent. Below are my responses

Hi, there is no malicious intent here.  Here there are people who are concerned and have a right to question when someone is using them to sell product.  Conjecture happens when facts cannot be found, if you do not wish conjecture then you should probably provide facts.. if not publicly then perhaps someone here you can talk in private to provide names so they can check out.  Rumors happen all the time in any business, and in personal lives too.  Public scrutiny happens with many businesses as well as personal if the personal becomes a public matter.  Like, say.. Tiger Woods.

So I don't think calling this place rumors is appropriate, nor public scrutiny.  The people here have a right to scrutinize a possible exploitation.  Possible being the key word.  In any case, once a person puts up a business they can expect some rumors and scrutiny even from the general public. 

That being said, I want to say that what I read is that you have a business, not a charity, but you use the 'good' the business does for Lakota as a selling point, to gain more business.  So when a person is deciding where they should buy their strap, they choose your business over another believing that by doing so they are helping Lakota.  Much in the same way I have seen some chocolates for sale that help the rainforest.  It is a selling point.  May or may not be true, to what percentage, don't know.  Which also holds for the chocolate.  So, if someone wants to find out exactly how/what your business does do for Lakota, they are going to ask, scrutinize and make conjectures based on the information you provide to them.  Same as the chocolate company.  Although I understand not posting peoples names on here or on your website, again, you could do so privately with someone here on this board who would be able to then go and confirm what you say.

(just a note, that someone is not me.)





 

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2010, 05:12:00 pm »
Who would that "someone" be?

I have a suggestion here to resolve this issue. Please, whoever that "someone" is who can be trusted to validate this information privately, please post to this forum and identify yourself (whether or not by name, your screenname is fine) that you are that someone who will validate. That way, that is documented as part of this thread. THEN that someone and Kenny should talk directly at length. THEN than someone can report their conclusions here. I believe this approach would help ease concerns if a known, trusted person on this forum reviewed Kenny's work, while at the same time honoring Kenny's request, a logical request, to maintain some level or privacy for his contractors. That would be fair, and above reproach, I believe. Just an idea. Please "someone," give this some serious thought.

I have spent about an hour on the phone this morning with Kenny. I now believe I may have done a huge disservice to his company and indeed may end up hurting, very directly, Lakota people on the reservation.

Regarding the need to prove Lakotas are involved, who is the authority to provide this proof? According to my read of the statute, that authorizing body is not established. The statute includes:

Quote
All products must be marketed truthfully regarding the Indian heritage and tribal affiliation of the producers, so as not to mislead the consumer. It is illegal to market an art or craft item using the name of a tribe if a member, or certified Indian artisan, of that tribe did not actually create the art or craft item.

Kenny has stated he has files full of documentation to establish this truth of his claims. I had suggested in this forum, that as a courtesy to Kenny, that he be contacted directly by phone or email. He in his posts has asked the same thing. Perhaps if "someone" will call him he can share the names with you in private. I do not know. I do know he need not prove to any one individual who has doubts. All he need be, is real and truthful in his disclosures. That's all the statue requires.

Kenny informed me he was aware of the statute and was when he did his initial research. I believe I confounded the issue in this forum by thinking out loud, so to speak, in my posts that there is some sort of certification that can be done. As far as I can see, no certification like that exists. It is incumbent upon the person or company selling products to honor the statutes, and that's pretty much all that is required as far as I read what the statute covers.

If Kenny were making false claims, he is subject to a $1,000,000 fine according to the statute. Kenny seemed aware of that. That's a pretty big incentive for him not to f--k up.

Kenny's tale of the elder and use of the Lakota name can easily be tracked down, but by whom?  Kenny raised some valid points regarding the use of the Lakatoa name. He stated to me he employs only individuals working at home on the Pine Ridge Reservation and has tons of documentation to establish that fact. He tells here in this forum how the name was arrived at. If he were to call his company "Kenny's Fine Straps" he asked me, would that be a true reflection of what the company is about? That's a valid question.

Here is an individual who has named his company Lakota Leathers and, who I now see, is real and heartfelt and IN NO WAY a wannabe (nor am I, I am a don't-give-a-damn-to-be. I know who I am and that is good enough for me). So Kenny says he can easily document his assistance. Ok. But what about Dodge Dakotas? Or the Cherokee Chief? These are examples of exploited names and I doubt anyone can show how Jeep or Dodge has contributed to Indians. Those large corporations have the power to continue screwing Indians and the use of their name. Fine.

Now Kenny comes along. I'm pretty good at discerning bullcrap. I do not detect any at all. Kenny has stepped up to the plate in my opinion. I have read a lot of threads in this forum and never have I seen this happen (but I am a newbie), in what appears to be a positive way. But Kenny is just one guy. You guys could easily squash him like a bug in this forum if you choose to. If you do, he will not be able to defend himself. He is not quite the size of Dodge or Jeep to ignore Indians. He is directly engaged. He should be kicked for that? I do not think so. Not until he has been validated or not.

I do now believe and see he is for real. My thread could prove detrimental not only to his company, but also to the Lakotas he works with. That should be a consideration here. If that is the result of my inquiry, that would be a little difficult to live with, but I will live with it. I have made mistakes in my life and perhaps this is one of them.

In an earlier post I made I had stated that I hoped that some of the artisans cold chime in. Kenny pointed out to me that none of them own computers or are on the internet. How are they going to "chime in?" That's a valid point. His reluctance to publicly identify his artisans and contractors does not mean he he won't identify them. There is a profound difference there. You must stop and consider the damage that could possibly happen if these folks were now plastered all over the internet, the effect and impact that could have. He states that many are already depicted in his videos. To name them by name?

When I made my initial post I did not know his situation of course. When I made my suggestion to name them, I was not considering those potential consequences until Kenny pointed them out to me. His workers work out of their homes. I do clearly understand his concerns.

Again, it would be indeed unfortunate if my inquiry into this company carried the unintended consequence of hurting real Lakota people. That is why I have suggested that someone on this forum post that they will be the one to interview Kenny and post the conclusions here. That seems fair.

If I end up hurting folks because of this, including Kenny (if he is for real, and I do believe his heart is pure on this) that I will live with that knowledge. I have carried burdens before. I do not wish to be know as someone who hurt someone just by being a dumbass.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 05:20:08 pm by clearwater »

Offline LittleOldMan

  • Posts: 138
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2010, 05:22:46 pm »
The Lakota go to person is Earth7 she is the director of the Standing rock tourism on the Standing Rock Rez.  Educated Indian the Administer of this site would also know how to or who from to get verification from.  Either would also know about the correct way to label the articles being made as Native American made.  "LittleOldMan"
Blind unfocused anger is unproductive and can get you hurt.  Controlled and focused anger directed tactically wins wars. Remember the sheath is not the sword.

Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2010, 05:22:56 pm »
You seem a bit stressed over all this.  I say, don't worry, relax.  It will play itself out, will be proven or not.  You did the right thing to bring this here.  Have faith.  The people here are not malicious.  Claims can be verified and in due time I suspect they will be.  Patience.

Creating a clamor of fear and anxiety does nothing for anybody.  If Kenny is legit then he has no worry, if he is not, then perhaps he will learn something.  

Don't tie yourself up in knots, it is out of your hands and you should not regret posting.  Watch, listen, learn.  Patience.   :)
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Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2010, 05:38:21 pm »
You seem a bit stressed over all this.  I say, don't worry, relax.  It will play itself out, will be proven or not.  You did the right thing to bring this here.  Have faith.  The people here are not malicious.  Claims can be verified and in due time I suspect they will be.  Patience.

<snip>

Don't tie yourself up in knots, it is out of your hands and you should not regret posting.  Watch, listen, learn.  Patience.   :)

You are very kind and, of course, you are correct. I will take your advice. I will go do something else now and forget about this for now. I will sit back and let this unfold itself and not worry about it.

It is rather funny, though, that that was my advise to Kenny too. Take a few days, go do something else. I should listen to myself some time LOL

Thank you again. Many blessings.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 08:11:56 am by clearwater »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2010, 08:48:02 pm »
Either you are a businessman, and you are paying the people that you subcontract for the arts and crafts that they provide to you for sale, or you are "helping" them by donating your time, energy, money and good will.  Forgive me if I am missing something, but you seem to be conflating the idea of running with the business with the Christian notion of charity.  You are justifying the business by claiming that you do charity work.  If I am mistaken, please forgive my confusion.
... ... ...

Sir, I have no evidence that this business of yours is run by Lakotas, or even that it includes the work of Lakotas, as all I have to go on is your word that an anonymous elderly Lakota man, who is nameless, sanctions your work, and all the artisans that share their work with you are also anonymous, nameless.  In my experience, this is not how a business works.

Furthermore, I want to point out that there are many independent business on Pine Ridge, some amazing artisan ventures, and Lakota people who are working hard to build more business capacity for and amongst their people.  I think, for those of us who want to work as allies with Indian people in Indian nations, we should do all we can to make sure we are not trying to speak for the people, or represent ourselves as rescuing those who have never needed to be rescued.

I completely understand your desire to not have the government involved, to give from the heart, to not have your good work and heartfelt sharing rubber-stamped and produced in triplicate, on-file in some bureaucratic office.  But if this is the case, why advertise?  Do it quietly, and don't draw attention to yourself.  Learn from the people.  Lakotas have been running their own cottage industries for a long time, supporting each other through non-monetary ventures.

If you want to run a business, use the internet to drum up more customers, if you want to use the Lakota name then, by golly, you need to provide evidence that Lakotas are involved.

Exactly.



ETA: http://lakotaleathers.com/About_Us.html
Quote
Upon arrival, I had the 'chance' meeting with a nearly 80 year old Lakota elder. It turns out his great great grandfather was Chief Big Foot. The last holdout killed at he wounded knee massacre. His father had the heel of his foot blown off by a hotchkiss gun at the massacre. He is an incredible man... He welcomed us to his home and made us members of his family.
[emphasis added]

I'm looking over your site, Kenny, and I'm noticing that none of the NDNs on your site have names. The white people have names. I guess I'm finding it hard to believe that people would say, "Hey, put our pictures on the Internet and tell people we adopted you, but don't use our names."  To me it smacks of colonialism; to be blunt: the objectified faces of nameless People of Color used to sell something to white people. I realize this may sound harsh to you, and is not the response you expected. But this is how you're coming off to at least some of the people who are looking at your website.

It's also odd that the only person you've named who can vouch for you is another non-Lakota (correct me if I'm wrong, but it appeared to me that the Christian charity worker you told us to talk to is non-Lakota). There are plenty of Lakota businesspeople and community workers who are public or semi-public people who should be fine on vouching for you if what you say is accurate.

Again, I'm not saying you don't mean well. I'm saying that, from your website and actions so far, your motivations and profits here are unclear.



Found some more stuff that's of concern:

http://lakotaleathers.com/Custom_Designed_Straps.php
Quote
Please note that currently, our custom straps are finished off of the Pine Ridge reservation. While they are Native American made, the artist is not a registered member of the Lakota Sioux tribe. He is working with us very closely to help the people of Pine Ridge become skilled enough to do this type of leather work.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the unnamed artist is not Lakota. You then claim the people of Pine Ridge do not have the skills to do traditional Lakota leatherwork. You say they need a non-Lakota to teach them how to do this work.

Do you have any idea how offensive this is?

Then you claim all the beadwork is made by "registered" Lakota:
Quote
The beadwork on our custom straps is made on the Pine Ridge reservation, by  registered members of the Lakota tribe and is incorporated into all of our 'custom straps'.

In order to make this claim in your marketing materials you must comply with the Indian Arts and Crafts act. I also hope your artists are being paid a fair wage.

I guess they don't need non-Lakota to teach them how to do Lakota beadwork.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:47:33 am by Kathryn »

Offline Lakota Leathers

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Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2010, 01:06:31 am »
.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 09:11:27 pm by Lakota Leathers »

Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2010, 08:19:01 am »
While I can appreciate what you may be experiencing from all this, and can understand taking a step back from what appears to be confrontation, I have to wonder what you would do if 100 or more members of this forum contacted you as per your request?

As I stated earlier, if all your work is legit, it can be verified by some of the people here, and you should have no worry.  If all legit, then work with, not against.  As a business, you can turn the encounters here to advantage, as a positive it can help you streamline your website and clear up misunderstandings and any portions of writing on your site that can be viewed as offensive by the same peoples you say you are assisting by being in business with them.

It is a lot of work, but it is not impossible.  To just walk away and leave it for all members to contact you individually seems a lot more work, and/or leaves the situation as more suspicious.  

Clearwater, as good a person as he may be is not NA, and it is the NA community that is affected.  Yes?  So, although it is perhaps good that Clearwater is satisfied, there are all of these people who apparently are not.

Well, I don't intention to drag you into where you do not want to be.. I am not NA, I am just a person who is here.  I don't intention to speak for ndn's or anyone other than my own self..  just had some thoughts on this, reading your response, and said them.  

Be well.

edit:  Another thought, if you do not feel good to give up names to anyone here, then why not ask your workers to contact someone here and verify? 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 08:25:51 am by critter »
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Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2010, 09:11:02 pm »
I just watched the video here: http://lakotaleathers.com/Custom_Designed_Straps.php 
It is also on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IedgEwAOjz0

I notice that in addition to no credit being given to the artists, no credit is given to whoever it is whose flute music is used.

And on the custom straps page, the "Lakota" beadwork is described as "exotic".  Some of the straps being sold have feathers on them, and "medicine bag" type attachments. I'm not sure about the feathers, but some of them looked to me like they might be hawk.

Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2010, 10:29:10 pm »
I think having "medicine bag" type attachments and feathers caters to the wannabe..  just my o.
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Offline flyaway

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Re: Lakota Leathers
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2010, 01:48:10 am »
Lakota Leathers is a company based on the Pine Ridge Indian reservation in South Dakota, with a satelite office in Sevierville TN
I have emailed some friend on the Pine Ridge Rez and we will see if there is a company there. I feel the only way to get to the matter of things is to go to the source of what  is being said.


We manufacture the finest guitar, banjo and mandolin straps available using native Bison (American Buffalo) and Elk hides exclusively.
Here you are speaking of "WE" who is "WE"?[

The hides we select are the strongest and most supple available.
here again you use "WE" All the Natives I know alwyas put there names or initials on thier work, why is it different for you?

Our straps are manufactured using a 'cottage' approach and each purchase helps a Lakota Family.
Helps a family, not the Pine Rudge Rez and I am curious as to how much this family receives as I though it was only those making and beading for you recived pay, so you can see why I am confused.


We can custom make any kind of guitar, banjo, mandolin, or any other musical instrument strap. These straps are our custom orders and designs. While most of these feature Native American patterns, almost anything you desire can be acheived
Here we have "most of these feature Native American PATTERNS, not are made by Native Americans, hmm?

check out the strap that we custom designed for country music legend John Anderson. His strap sports eagle conchos Elk hide construction and his initials in both conchos and beadwork. "WE"

After many months, Kenny & Phyllis have put together a network of people on the reservation who work from their homes creating these lovely straps. Each strap is made  from the finest native leathers. " How did you put together this network of people, and since it is a company on Pine Ridge' I am curious how yoiu managed that. Did you have to go through the Council.


Each person who creates a strap shares this experience with their entire family. So far proceeds from strap sales have helped pay for hospital visits, groceries, wood stoves, and many other essentials of daily life. While we are not a charity, our products provide a means of sustanance for an otherwise bleak future.
By purchasing a strap from Lakota Leathers, you help keep the Lakota traditions alive as well as helping a family in need .
I think this may be a sales pitch, of course if I am wrong I will be the first to appologize.

I also have been checking with some friends and the Elder you are speaking of is Leonard Little Finger. I also have emailed him. He is a wonderful Elder and a very gentle soul.
Walk with the Sun; Dance with the Moon; Sing with the Stars; But always...Run with the Wind. -
Snow Owl, Nevada. December 8, 2001