Randy Crow Parsons & Tray Ravenfoot Bradford (was North Texas sweat)

[jim151]

Does anyone have anything to offer concerning these men offering to hold sweat lodges near Dallas.


Randy Parsons.

Tray. "Ravenfoot" Bradford.

Thanks
Jim

[just changed title-Al]

[Epiphany]

Does Randy Parsons go by "Randy Crow Parsons"? If so, he is active with Mary Thunder, some discussion of Thunder here & elsewhere in forums: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=94.msg272#msg272 http://www.marythunder.com/SpiritualServicesEvents/Events/Sweatlodge/sweatlodgeschedule.htm

Tray Ravenfoot Bradford does "Shamanic Reiki attunements", also sweats http://moonlady.com/ravenfoot-spirit-lodge-03-15-regional/ http://allevents.in/events/Shamanic-Reiki-II/300849126702774 through this store http://www.powerrainbow.com/

Jim, have you had any experience with these two?

[debbieredbear]

well, Tray. "Ravenfoot" Bradford sells sweats for $50.00 a pop. So right there, I would think he is an exploiter.

And Randy Parsons is associated with Mary "Thunder" Grimes, a well known exploiter.

[jim151]

I have no first hand experience with either, only google research.   I read about sweat baths in money's book Sacred formulas of the Cherokee and started searching for local lodges.    In looking through the forum however, I see that James Money is not held in high regard, so maybe I should re- think this while I research it further.   I realize I have a lot to learn and please forgive my ignorance; but, is it really that unreasonable to ask lodge attendees to help cover the expenses incurred by the leader?   Are you saying that everything including meals should be free before it can be considered legitimate, or is it that $50 is too much?    Is there a rule of thumb for pricing on things like this?
Thanks
Jim

[debbieredbear]

jim151,

Charging for the scared is not done in Indiaqn country. I have nopt met any tribal people who fell it is ok. I will give my husband's relative as an example. I won't name him as he is passed on. He left a lucrative career because he felt called back to his home to help his own people. He worked a low paying job. He was an artist. Every penny he had, pretty much went to help other people. If someone gave him money to help out with the ceremony, he usually ended up giving it to saomeone for gas money. He gave away freely what was given to him freely. He taught herbal knowledge, arts, language. He built a longhouse to have the ceremonies in. And he died way to young. The real people who are given the traditional ceremonies are not doing it to get rich.

They are usually pretty poor. Another person I met who was from South Dakota, did a healing for a friend of mine. He only asked her to have certain things available to be used in the ceremony and if she would put in up and help out with gas money as he was traveling for 2 days to help her. She cooked a big meal and people brought other food, so that all that came could eat for the 2 days of this healing ceremony. He did not ask for a set amount like these guys do.

Also, most of the ceremonies I have been too, it is potluck. My husband has another relative that invites people for sweats. He only asks that they bring food to share with everyone. One time I brought tobacco and cloth to make prayer ties because I was trying to send a hint to some of the people who were new that they should bring these things. This relative was buying all this with his own money, cutting and splitting the wood by himself and setting everything up by himself. I wanted the new people to understand that they should offer to help. I do not go in the sweat but I help with the cooking when I go.

I understand that this is all new to you. And asking questions is good. That way you don't get taken advantage of. There are some Cherokee people on this board. Maybe some of them will give you ideas about how to better connect with your culture. Going to the Stomp was a good thing from what I hear.

[jim151]

   Thank you for sharing.  The opportunities you've had are not available to me.  I will have to keep reading and observing those in my area.
   Does anyone think that there are any books worth reading?
Jim

[amorYcohetes]

Hi Jim, FYI there is a thread called "NAFPS Highly Recommends" that has a suggested reading list.  Hope this is helpful.

[earthw7]

Jim accord to my ways you must know the Traditional language and the songs for each door,
completed four years vision quest and four years of Sun Dance before you are allowed to run a lodge,
You must be able to tell the story of each pole, direction, creation and every thing you do at the lodge.
beside you know Cherokee dont use a sweat lodge???

[jim151]

Re: Cherokee sweat lodge.  No, I didn't know that, but then - i don't know much.  There is a chapter concerning this in Sacred Formulas of the Cherokee and my father once told me that he had been in sweats before, but I don't remember him using the term lodge however.   That is all I have to go on and like I mentioned before I am starting to question Mooneys research. .   I suppose it's possible that modern Cherokee have stopped the practice.  I just don't know for sure, but I guess it can't hurt to have an open mind and try new experiences.
    Thank you for the book list thread
Jim

[used2bnaf]

... is it really that unreasonable to ask lodge attendees to help cover the expenses incurred by the leader?   Are you saying that everything including meals should be free before it can be considered legitimate, or is it that $50 is too much?    Is there a rule of thumb for pricing on things like this?
Thanks
Jim

YES!  In my experience many groups hide behind the use of the term "donation".  Its it what is used to lend credibility to what they are stealing.  There are many MANY whack jobs that openly charge for sacred ceremonies.  What is even more sad is the fact that wounded people and misinformed people will throw money at these Plastic Shamans.  The next group of pretendians try to differentiate themselves from the nuage huxters by pointing to the fact they do not charge for ceremony.  This becomes important when people within the group begin to question if it is ok.  The people you have inquired about in the DFW area are frauds.  Neither person is Lakota.  A non-lakota performing a ceremony (free, donations, or charged for) is wrong.  It is stealing the culture of the Lakota people.

If you bring this to their attention, (especially Randy Parsons) you will get a lecture on lineage.  Randy is now a "Chief".  He was made one by Chief Leonard Crow Dog.  That is credible, right?  Wrong.  Chief of what?  What is a white guy going to do with a bonnet?  Who are his "people".  Leonard is famous for making white people chiefs.  But wait, there is more!  Randy has been a Sun Dancer for 15 years.(Granted, it was in TX and the Sun Dance Chief is a white guy)  He had a teach, Chira Sweet Medicine!  Chira Sweet Medicine had a teacher- Mary Thunder.  And Mary Thunder's teacher was Leonard Crow Dog.  That is the justification presented to new people that would (correctly) question what they had encountered.

Next, you will be given the teachings about how the ceremony is kept pure.  From teacher to teacher, nothing is ever added to, or taken away from the ceremony.  That Randy does it just as he was taught all the way back to the Lakotas.  It is filed under, "Original instructions."

You may ask how I know about these things.  I was a member of Randy's group for 10 years.  I spent years questioning internally.  I broke away last year.  They didn't try to chase me down and drag me back.  I was arrogantly waved off as "less than" and foolish.  I strongly suggest you stay away from that group.  They mean well, but create more harm than good.

You are cherokee.  If you want to learn go to your people.  I say that with sincerity.  You are not Lakota, and I don't think you would want to learn Lakota things from a 60 something year old white guy with a counseling degree.

Roy
aka used2bnaf
Former adopted son of Chief Crow (Randy Parsons)

[debbieredbear]

The opportunities you've had are not available to me.

Ah, but they are. You need patience, though. Find your relatives at CNO. Get to know them. You will learn from them. But patience is the key. It may take awhile. But what you gain will be real and worth every minute you spend with your relatives.

[earthw7]

I would agree with everyone here go find your relatives and see first hand who and what they are,
White people tend to mix up the belief of different tribes and that is so wrong.

[jim151]

      Well Randy is definitely out.  Thank you for the info on him.  This is exactly what I was looking for and I will learn from your experience.
      Thanks to all others who have replied.  I am planning a trip back to Tahlequah this summer and will try to connect with family then.  In the meantime if anyone can help me with resources closer to Dallas please message me.  I understand the reluctance to post for public viewing and will keep the information confidential. One more thing, I've found that I can add a Cherokee keypad to my Ipad. How cool is that.

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[Mahekun]

Also, most of the ceremonies I have been too, it is potluck. My husband has another relative that invites people for sweats. He only asks that they bring food to share with everyone. One time I brought tobacco and cloth to make prayer ties because I was trying to send a hint to some of the people who were new that they should bring these things. This relative was buying all this with his own money, cutting and splitting the wood by himself and setting everything up by himself. I wanted the new people to understand that they should offer to help. I do not go in the sweat but I help with the cooking when I go.

Seconding this. The sweats I go to always have potluck for after. We bring tobacco ties to thank the elder and firekeepers. People help with cutting the cedar and building the wood pile. If people are carpooling they might give gas money to those going out of their way to pick/drop off others but no money is given for ceremony.

[earthw7]

In my country it is the one who is running the ceremony usually provides the food
but people bring food to help young men help with the work because there is a story
to everything for them to learn, each step has a story if you dont now the story stay away