NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: danielle on December 05, 2006, 11:13:58 am
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i`m reading and hearing more and more that eastern woodland indians practiced sweat lodge ceremony.as far as i know,this is plains indian tradition.i haven`t seen anything in frank speck`s writings and i just can`t imagine a sweat lodge in the middle of a big house.i`m sure it`s not correct that it was lenape practice.according to speck their was a center pole in big houses.well,without going into more detail on sacred ceremonies i`d certainly like to get to the truth........
does anyone know if this was practiced amoung any eastern woodland nations??
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The "Sweat-Doctors" were one thing, but where did you hear these were in the Big House. frederica
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Just ask any Lenape?? LOL!!! Well,i`m Lenape and all that information could never have come from me.Thanks a million.I have Speck`s book but i don`t recall him mentioning a Sweat Lodge.Any description i get from other people made it seem too nueagey or like it`s an adaption of Lakota Sweat Lodges.I don`t want no wack MicMac or Mohawk misleading me so i thought i better get to the bottom of it and ask some questions hereIt also seemed strange after reading on the internet that Lenape constructed Sweat Lodges in the middle of the Big House.
Welp,looks like me hitting the books is long overdue..........Thanks again.
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The "Sweat-Doctors" were one thing, but where did you hear these were in the Big House. frederica
I`m trying to find the URL.......I`ll post it soon as i find it.
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I think that came in later when the Big House started including other roles like male initiation rites. It included other roles a couple of times before it was over. frederica
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Ancient rite it was, but was moved to the Big House post contact. Several changes took place after that over a period of time. Seems like I was told there was one in OK until the early 1920's. Wasn't exactly the same. But I check to be sure. frederica
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The "Sweat-Doctors" were one thing, but where did you hear these were in the Big House. frederica
I`m trying to find the URL.......I`ll post it soon as i find it.
This is not the site i`m refering to but while looking for it i found two others that mention Lenape Sweat Lodges.......Both indicate that Eastern Woodlands people are ripping off the Lakota.Ya know,i hear of a revival of the Big House Ceremony but in all honesty i wouldn`t want it back because noone today knows what they`re doing and with the looks of things....... it would be a mockery.
http://www.koinoniany.org/lenape.htm
Lenape did not call the Great Spirit,Wankan-tanka nor did we adopt the Lakota inipi ceremony,yet it`s being taught on this site.
http://www.weyanoke.org/tbw-bagnio.html
Here in the summation it states again how Eastern Woodland people are duping or being duped.
Sheesh!! This is soooo sad!
http://
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Danielle, there was some talk in OK of bring the Big House back a few years ago. But it never happen for a variety of reasons. I wouldn't put much stock in the "The Eastern Lenape Nation" or what it says. frederica
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I don't know for the woodland Indians but it seems to me that it is a type of ceremony that exists in many places of the continent.
Around Eastern Quebec the Innu have a type of sweatlodge ceremony called matutshan and they had it back in 1633 when father Le Jeune wrote his chronicles, he describes a ceremony taking place inside an Innu winter tent (they were big, having a capacity of about 20 people) in a smaller, low tent that Le Jeune describes as an "oven" , covered with furs, they heat 5 or 6 big rocks that they later put inside the matutshan, then they enter,sing and gently hit the matutshan's sides the whole time they are inside which lasts usually about 3 hours. Back then they used the ceremony to prevent famines by attracting luck for the hunters or for healing purposes. Father Le Jeune is quoted in an Innu author's book, "Croyances et rituels chez les Innus" (beliefs and rituals of the Innu) by Jean Louis Fontaine, on p.56.
Marlene
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Just please keep in mind all the info is from books and not all books are wrote very acurret most the time
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Just please keep in mind all the info is from books and not all books are wrote very acurret most the time
I don`t have much faith in scholars and scientific views but i find Frank Speck to be as accurate as can be.His translation of Witapanoxwe being my guideline.Our culture has been messed with so much that it`s possible that we may never know who is accurate and who isn`t. I put trust in Speck however,he has done his work in translation and i`m unsure that all Lenape terms can be translated into english,so i do question his accuracy for that reason.
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Gee Ray, one could take that as a flippant remark. Is it?
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Just please keep in mind all the info is from books and not all books are wrote very acurret most the time
Well Lostcherokee, in this case I have no other choice but to rely on what this father Lejeune saw when he got in Innu land 400 years ago. His description is really similar to what happens nowadays, the Innu were forced to abandon their traditionnal ways only in the 60's and 70's and the author who originally quoted father Lejeune, jean-Louis fontaine, is himself a proud Innu and would expose himself to lots of critics if he happened to write something innacurate.
Marlene.
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Just please keep in mind all the info is from books and not all books are wrote very acurret, most the time
Dont get me wrong. I love reading books and articles. but sometimes no matter how good the author there is some inacurries, miss interputations and for some they assume how or why it worked just keep a open mind. When reading and on something you need to decide not having the author or other ppl telling you what you should think and beleive and on some books no matter who the person is all that person can do is "quote" other ppl
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danielle's post and my reply in double brackets:
I don`t have much faith in scholars and scientific views but i find
Frank Speck to be as accurate as can be.
{{Why is that? Do you have an extensive knowledge of the Big House
ceremony from some unimpeachable source which allows you to judge
Speck's work as "accurate as can be"?}}
His translation of Witapanoxwe being my guideline.Our culture has been
messed with so much that it`s possible that we may never know who is
accurate and who isn`t.
{{This is one of the great excuses of people who have no real desire to
take the time to study and learn.}}
I put trust in Speck however,he has done his work in translation and i`m
unsure that all Lenape terms can be translated into english,so i do
question his accuracy for that reason.
{{So, you reject the scientific method and scholarship, and rely on your
own "faith" and "trust" to evaluate the accuracy of Speck? Good luck
with that! (Didn't you also say that you believed in the Walam
Olum--which is a proven hoax of the first magnitude?)}}
Before we had books,does that mean we never learned anything?? Or was it a eurocentric mind that conjured up some notion that Indians didn`t know a damn thing without them?? The elders will always be tbe colleges and books do not beat the knowledge they had and still have.My great grandmother never went to school a day in her life but she was far from lacking in knowledge....I do read books but my elders come first. And yes,i will continue to do research on the Walum Olum until i`m satisfied as to whether it`s a hoax or not.....I`m not now and never have been into that groupthink mode.
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Being new here I wonder if what I say will be a waste of bandwith? Anyway I wonder where we would all be right now if all of lifes experinces was based on what we read in books. I mean realy would we ever truly know what was going on?
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Being new here I wonder if what I say will be a waste of bandwith? Anyway I wonder where we would all be right now if all of lifes experinces was based on what we read in books. I mean realy would we ever truly know what was going on?
Thank you........It`s the world in which we live that is the time and place for us to learn......books are only a small part of it.If i had to go through life with a book in my face,thinking that is the only way to gain any knowledge ,it would have destroyed my natural urge to learn.
Funny thing though,my parents tried to home school me but after two years,i told them they were the worst teachers i ever had and went back to school.LOL!!
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there is currently an exhibit in old montreal that "proves" the iroquois along the st lawrence disappeared. came as quite a surprise to the onkwehonwe who live there today. think they will write a book about it and years from now it will be believed?
this forum used to be a place where people could question without hesitation and fear of being ridiculed.
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There are some things you can learn from books and some things you
can't. Because there are some things you can't, that *doesn't* negate
the value of those things you can.
This thread was started by a person "calling herself" a Lenape, but
didn't even know that sweats are a traditional Lenape practice. She
prefers what she learns from her "elders." So, what did they ever
teach her about the sweatlodge? *Nothing.* I provided her with a
long list of sources--from books!--to help her in learning about the
sweatlodge usages of "her people."
Then, I corrected a misunderstanding about the sweatlodge erected inside
the Big House, by citing the words of a Lenape elder--found in a
*book*!
Marlene added a very interesting practice of the Innu, recorded in 1633,
which, in form, function and language, showed a close parallel to an old
Lenape practice. Of course, one would only recognize the parallel if
they read *books.*
Then, those who despise scholarship and book-learning chime in with
their two cents, adding NOTHING to the discussion but broad, opinionated
generalities--proving nothing but their own ignorance concerning the
subject.
I'm getting a real sense that many of the members of this NAFPS are,
themselves, posers and frauds. People calling themselves "Lenape" and
"Cherokee" and other native nationalities regularly exhibit their total
unfamiliarity with anything *real* members of those tribes know.
In truth, it's all kind of sad. Now, who wants to add to our
knowledge on Lenape sweats? (That's a rhetorical question. I don't
expect there will be any additions from this assemblage.)
It`s never questioned when we say we`re white..........Why is that,Ray? All i see in what you have said here is the continuance of genocide.White man trying to take the Indian out of us and deny us our identity."posers"and "frauds" isn`t that what you would call it?? Do you realize how many Indians you claim to be "posers" and 'frauds" simply b/c they have no tribal affiliation.So what does that do,automatically extract blood and turn you into a white person??
I can`t see where it`s any of your proper business if i ask an elder,read a book or come to newagefraud.org to get the information i want or need.It makes none of us any more or less of an Indian.
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I'm locking this thread before any more hurtful and regrettable things are said. Ray, I see a number of your more abrasive posts are now gone, and take that as an encouraging sign that you've decided to moderate the tone of your posts in future.