NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Epiphany on January 05, 2013, 04:10:01 pm
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The Tailgaiting Tale of Apache McLean and the Utah Utes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrFSBtPKwk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrFSBtPKwk)
Utah Utes fans wear headdresses, some made by "Apache McLean" a "very famous Native American around here". One fan in this video says "He blessed me with this headdress".
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McLean was given a regular name at birth, like Joe or Sam, but he had his name legally changed to Apache McLean several years ago because he is so interested in Indian culture. He doesn't want anyone to know his name before it was changed because, he said, "When Indians changed their names they didn't ever want to be called by the old name."
The schoolteacher has decorated his classroom with pictures of Indians and Indian artifacts he has collected and often tells his students Indian stories and punctuates their sociology and history lessons with details about Indian life and lore.
He has visited many of the Indian reservations from New York to California and has written one book, "American Indian Dances," published in 1963, and is working on another about Indian crafts and beadwork.
McLean spends his summers performing Indian dances at lodges in Teton National Park in Wyoming and traveling about the nation visiting Indian friends on reservations. He trades handicraft he has made for Indian-made items and buys Indian jewelry and handicraft that he sells at gun shows.
More info in this article including "McLean grew up in Salt Lake City - without a drop of Indian blood in him, as far as he knows" http://www.deseretnews.com/article/86047/TEACHER-FASCINATED-WITH-INDIANS-BRINGS-HOBBY-INTO-LIFE-AND-CLASS.html?pg=all (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/86047/TEACHER-FASCINATED-WITH-INDIANS-BRINGS-HOBBY-INTO-LIFE-AND-CLASS.html?pg=all)
Photo http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=oUFTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w4QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7021,3630577&dq=apache-mclean&hl=en (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=oUFTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w4QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7021,3630577&dq=apache-mclean&hl=en)
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Retired in 1992:
McLean, who says he "traded a kilt for a breechcloth," has been a resource not only for American Indian students but for those from a variety of cultures. "They all call me Mr. Apache," he said. (He had his name legally changed to reflect his interest in the American Indian past.)
Retirement will offer McLean more time to do what he's been doing for years - participating in Indian dance ceremonies. "I've never been to Disneyland, but I've been on practically every Indian reservation in the country," he said. He's danced for a University of Utah anthropology program that took him to many areas of the United States and "raised my daughter in a cradleboard."
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/224742/2-EMERSON-TEACHERS-RETIRING-THIS-SPRING.html?pg=all (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/224742/2-EMERSON-TEACHERS-RETIRING-THIS-SPRING.html?pg=all)
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His name is Robert E McLean, born in Utah. He co-wrote the book "American Indian dances: steps, rhythms, costumes, and interpretation". I don't know if he is still alive, but his pretendian tale lives on, and has morphed into a belief that he is NDN and that therefore the headdresses he's made are blessings for the recipient.
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http://www.liveauctionworld.com/old-squash-blossom-necklace-purchased-from-famous_i8920881 (http://www.liveauctionworld.com/old-squash-blossom-necklace-purchased-from-famous_i8920881)
"old squash blossom necklace purchased from famous indian dancer Apache McLean"
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http://teaohou.natlib.govt.nz/journals/teaohou/issue/Mao65TeA/c7.html (http://teaohou.natlib.govt.nz/journals/teaohou/issue/Mao65TeA/c7.html) Story of McLean performing a dance and then describing what he said were the traditional meanings of the dance
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First of all, there are differing opinions as to whether having the Ute Indians as the University sports teams symbol is racist. I grew up going to U of U games and attended the U of U and never once though it as being racist in any way. Second of all, I knew Apache McClean and he was not fascinated with "Indians.” Apache McClean was an honorary Apache, welcomed by the tribe. he became an honorary "Indian" at least as far back as the early seventies, because he was one as long as I can remember. He had a deep and great love and appreciation of Native American culture, traditions, and beliefs. Apache McClean attended many, many Pow Wows in the Southwestern US, he owned a shop in S.L.C. devoted to the crafts of Native Americans (“Hopi Kiva”), and he gave many incredible and moving performances performing traditional dances. I bought necessary elements that were difficult to come by at his store to make roach headdresses and other native crafts. He wore traditional costumes he made himself and taught many, many people to appreciate the beautiful culture of Native Americans; including myself. He lived in my neighborhood across the street from my elementary school. I would walk past the totems that he had made standing in his front yard on my way to school. I asked my parents who knew him to get him to perform at any event or occasion presenting the opportunity such as Boy Scout events or school programs.
Apache McClean brought an awareness, love, and respect of Native American culture to many, many people throughout his life. He used creative ideas to bring the beauty of the Native American way of life to other, for example; he would close many of his performances with the Lords Prayer using Sign language, wearing beautiful buckskin clothes and an eagle feather headdress that reached down onto the floor. I truly doubt many of us will ever touch as many lives in as profound a way and make such a difference in the world as he did. I only wish videos of his performances were on Youtube. The fans in the videos do not do justice to who Apache McClean truly was and they strike me as young folks who want to make themselves seem important by associating themselves with Apache McClean.
I was very saddened to learn that he had recently passed away, but of course it is part of the great cycle of life and I am sure he is one with the Great Spirit and all that is.
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Apache McClean was an honorary Apache, welcomed by the tribe.
Which Apache tribe?
Superdog
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1. First of all, there are differing opinions as to whether having the Ute Indians as the University sports teams symbol is racist.
2. I grew up going to U of U games and attended the U of U and never once though it as being racist in any way.
3. Second of all, I knew Apache McClean and he was not fascinated with "Indians.” Apache McClean was an honorary Apache, welcomed by the tribe. he became an honorary "Indian" at least as far back as the early seventies, because he was one as long as I can remember.
4. he owned a shop in S.L.C. devoted to the crafts of Native Americans (“Hopi Kiva”),
5. He wore traditional costumes he made himself
6. I would walk past the totems that he had made standing in his front yard on my way to school.
7. he would close many of his performances with the Lords Prayer using Sign language, wearing beautiful buckskin clothes and an eagle feather headdress that reached down onto the floor.
8. I truly doubt many of us will ever touch as many lives in as profound a way and make such a difference in the world as he did.
9. The fans in the videos do not do justice to who Apache McClean truly was and they strike me as young folks who want to make themselves seem important by associating themselves with Apache McClean.
10. I was very saddened to learn that he had recently passed away, but of course it is part of the great cycle of life and I am sure he is one with the Great Spirit and all that is.
1. No, there are not. The mascot was racist, plain and simple. It was ruled so by the courts, and that's why the school was forced to change the symbol. Originally they copied the Washington racist symbol and name, and when they lost their case had to change. Then they had a racist cartoon of a Native boy, that was changed also. Seemingly you are among the few to not admit these symbols and names were racist.
2. Refusing to understand or admit it's racist is not the same as not being racist.
3. Claiming to be one and changing your name legally sure shows a fascination. I admire Jewish culture, but if I called myself Jew and had my name legally changed to it, people would rightly think me strange.
4. Calling your shop by a people's sacred site doesn't strike you as disrespectful?
5. Maybe you could explain what traditional regalia that is, because I don't know. And it's not a costume, we don't live like it's Halloween everyday. He either didn't teach you very well, or you didn't learn.
6. Totems in his front yard? And you claim he was not obsessed?
7. That's about as respectful as me dressing in a kilt and doing a prayer in pig Latin so I can "honor" Europeans.
8. I can think of many who had more impact than him. Every doctor, firefighter, veteran, and actual teacher, for example.
9. Seemingly he didn't teach them well either.
10. I wish him peace as well. I'm sure when he faced his creator, he had to answer "What the heck were you thinking with all this dress up silliness?"
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Thank you for your reply educatedindian. I appreciate your responses, but would just like to provide some perspective.
I don't know or feel that courts always make the correct or "right" decision, so that does not make something racist to me. Courts must make decisions according to law and nothing more. There may have been a racist cartoon of a Native boy, I don't recall ever seeing it. I was just pointing out that many of us were proud to have the Utes as the symbol of the university. I grew up feeling extremely proud of that. That is not to say that if the Utes take offense, or if the Utes were being represented in a defamatory or degrading manner it should not be changed.
I appreciate your comment that not understanding something to be racist does not make one racist. I never purport to know and understand all. When it comes to racial issues, I may understand less, because I always feel like no one can do anything right if someone is looking for fault in this area.
As long as I knew of him people referred to him as Apache McClean, and I fairly sure that was before he would have legally changed his name. He came to my attention in approximately 1968. Not sure if the chicken or the egg came first in this instance. Many folks have legally changed their names to what were previously nicknames. I think things are racist when done with intention of making fun of, degrading, or slighting in any manner. When something is done because someone considers it an honor, is proud of, or otherwise is trying to promote it in a positive way and they are still faulted, well, the argument against them is unjust and it just brings to light the sad and pathetic state of the world and humankind.
I do not think the naming of his shop was meant to be disrespectful in any way.
Using the term "costume" instead of regalia is not meant to imply in any way that it is something like Halloween or diminish what was worn for the various dances and ceremonies in any way. I don't think that debating semantics helps to bring about understanding or harmony and I think the definition of "costume" qualifies it for the way in which I used it.
I think that Apache McClean undertook to live in the traditions and beliefs of the Native American culture with which he was involved to the greatest degree possible within the confines of the parameters he lived in as a school teacher and living within suburban America. No I do not think that makes him obsessed. As far as i recall, he was not particularly social and spent his time pursuing his involvement with Native American culture.
7. Yeah, I don't get this response.
8. I don't know that every doctor, firefighter, veteran, and actual teacher touch lives in a meaningful way and have a lasting impact. Many do I'm sure, but I don't think most of any race or culture are those professions.
I think he did teach them well, because he gave many a great a love and respect for Native American culture, rather than letting them be indoctrinated into the idea that assimilation was somehow the right way. Having grown up in S.L.C., I witnessed the dominant religion in the area placing Native American children into the homes of families in my neighborhood to bring them into the religious beliefs, culture, and ways of white, middle class America. I went to school with those kids and knew them well. I also knew just how unhappy they were. I also passed the Intermountian Inidian School in Brigham City, UT many times while I was growing up and always felt ashamed that it existed and sad for the children there because it was my understanding they were taken away from their families and placed there to be brought into the ways of the white people or through the assimilation process - something I have always been against and am to this day. If that is what an individual chooses to do, no problem. But to indoctrinate and force people through the process is wrong in my opinion. Particularly in light of my feeling that many of the Native American beliefs, ways of living, and cultural ideals should perhaps have been assimilated by the Europeans if it weren't for their blind belief in manifest destiny.
Is it dress up silliness when a Native American does it and participates in social and cultural events?
Sometimes I feel that one can do no right, even when trying to do something positive and good. No good deed goes unpunished. Anything can be looked at and interpreted in a negative way, especially by those who make their living by the existence of dissonance and racial tension. Was the underground railroad a segregated rail service? When it comes to racism, I don't think anyone has a corner on any particular cultural norms, beliefs, ideals, or otherwise. Just because someone is born into a particular race, culture, or religion does not mean they identify with it, relate to it, understand, or have to adopt it as their own. The world would be a much less interesting and enjoyable place if that were the case. Plenty of great blues and jazz musicians would not have been allowed to play that music based on their race.
I am not sure which Apache tribe he was involved with, but I do know that he spent his summers traveling the Southwest in his pickup truck with a camper and participating in many Native American events.
My original post was not meant inflame hostile feelings, insult, or be a troll of any kind. I simply wanted to point out, that as someone familiar with the man and his family, I honestly believe his intentions were sincere and good, and that he did a lot of good.
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I am not sure which Apache tribe he was involved with, but I do know that he spent his summers traveling the Southwest in his pickup truck with a camper and participating in many Native American events.
I don't think you're trolling. This just goes along with the idea that his lore is bigger than the real facts. I don't believe you intended to be misleading, but I could tell by the language you used that you didn't really know what you were talking about. He was a sincere and sympathetic person to Native cultures and trying to serve as a bridge trying to educate others in positive manner, and he had friends, but stating he was an "honorary member of the tribe" is really an assumption on your part. Thanks for being honest.
That's why I asked....to get you thinking about it.
However, on the mascot issue, we stand on different sides of this issue. From where I stand, when you know better you should do better. Ignorance is a choice....you've learned a few things here. I'm hoping you'll take those with you.
Superdog
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Superdog, I was just told as a child and grew being told that he was an "Honorary Indian," that he had been made an Honorary Indian by the Native Americans. There was no reference to a tribe other than the "Apache" moniker, so I cannot confirm nor deny it. I would love it if someone that knew him through his travels and participation were available to speak on the subject. If I find more I will certainly share it either way it goes. He was a positive influence in my life.
Perhaps times were somewhat different then. I would like to think that there has been a growing awareness through the years of the need and value in retaining the wonderful and varied cultures of the world that have so thoughtlessly been all but stamped out. That awareness and commitment to retaining language, culture and traditions is bringing about positive and much needed changes in the world. That is why I joined this forum; to learn, to share, and because I think it is important not only to maintain cultural awareness, but hopefully, to have that awareness bring about dynamic, positive changes as they are shared cross-culturally. As I mentioned, back at that time the government and others were completely insensitive and actively working to eradicate Native American culture, and that is why I loved that he proudly wore that name and openly professed his love and value for the culture - though it may now be interpreted as offensive. I only hope that at the time it was not felt to be that way, because it was not by me and others I knew.
Thanks for engaging with me and providing a different perspective.
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F0rumu$er, how are you
I am from the Lakota/Dakota Oyate (nation),
My culture, language and way of life is very much alive and well.
I wanted to explain there is NO Native American Culture!
Each of the nation have their own way and we do not know each others
language and culture. So for a old nice man pretending to be Native
American is really wrong, its is like him pretending to be the pope and holding mass
for the catholics. He is not teaching real culture. He is mixing up a whole bunch of stuff
together which dont make a lot of sense. Then we have people like you who believe this stuff.
This is so wrong because it is not not true. I know let a crazy man just live his little fantasy but
then we have people like you come and beleive what his man is saying is true . A lie is a lie.
There is No honorary indian establish anwhere in america tribes that i know of. If you can show
me which tribe i would be willing to listen.
I would have to ask which Apache he is saying he is from?
Western Apache, Chiricahua, Mescalero, Jicarilla, Lipan, and Kiowa-Apache?
Each of these have different terrtiories?
Why would he use a Northwestern totem in his yard when he claim a southwestern tribe?
These tribe dont relate to each other in anyway with different langauge and culture.
Then to use this in Ute country who are total different is just wrong.
I find that this kind old man has only brought confusing instead of respect.
When misinformation is spread around it bring only more misinformation.
I wont even go into the racist, sport team names and how damaging these are to
native people. I had to live with the Fighting Sioux Name my whole life and the racist behavior
of sport teams to the point i dont watch sport anymore because of the hateful
and hurtful way team sport fan honor us.
I have to remind you that we have not been stamped out Hello we are still here!
We can bring our own awareness to the world OH Wait that is what we are doing now.
But we have a problem with these fakes who claim to know about us spreading lies.
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Is it dress up silliness when a Native American does it and participates in social and cultural events?
Are you serious? If this was a question from an 8 year old, I could understand it being asked..
Apparently, you aren't able to appreciate cultures and their respective ceremony and social events.
You also don't seem to understand what racism is.
As for McClean, Things are not different now, they are worse. Due to people like him who made it seem that is was OK to pretend and create a fake persona. Trampling on a peoples' culture and using their name to suit his own fancy.
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I m aware that there are a variety of cultures among Native Americans. When I refer to Native American culture I am referring to the many and varied cultures. I am also aware that the distinct cultures have not been stamped out and that was my point, that there has been a growing awareness and value for Native American culture (all of them) even among those belonging to the various tribes. As I said, I cannot vouch for the fact that he was actually made an "Honorary Indian" and said that it was just what I was told as a child. I also realize that he incorporated a variety of influences from various and distinct Native American tribes or cultures.
I don't watch sports either, but for different reasons. I also said that if something is perceived as being offensive by the person or people it refers to it should be changed, so I don't understand the hostility towards me. As for understanding racism, I understand that intent has much to do with what something actually is. I also understand that time and the dynamic nature of society influences what is thought to be racist and what isn't. I do however know that what the European invaders that came to this continent did to all of the Native Americans was a shameful and awful crime and I speak to that fact always.
I also said that I don't think anyone or any group of people has a corner on any particular culture. That is to say, if someone is not Jewish but identifies with the Jewish culture and faith, they have every right to convert to Judaism, and the same goes for other customs, cultures, religions, beliefs, or otherwise. So my point was, that it is not silliness when Native Americans dons the "regalia" and participates in social and cultural events. Nor is it when someone else joins in or participates, even if they were not born into that culture.
It is also widely understood that much misinformation and propaganda has been spread about Native Americans (all of the tribes or various groups to which they belong[ed]). If some feel Mr. McClean was insincere or misinformed others in regard to such matters, it is not my desire to change those feelings. I just felt it warranted to point out the fact that he brought appreciation and awareness to something beautiful that was at the time undervalued by many and was under siege by bureaucratic powers that did not appreciate the special qualities and uniqueness of Native American culture(s). Someone might expose others to another religion or culture without necessarily teaching them all the intricacies, but at the same time instill in them an appreciation for and value of it. Though I am not Native American, I find beauty and honor in what I see, hear, and learn about various tribes, even if I know little by comparison to someone born into such a culture. On the other hand, I was born into a culture and religion that I found little beauty and honor in. So for now we can agree to disagree as to the merits or value of what Mr. Mclean did. One thing I am sure of though, is that the kid in the video saying that Mr. McClean blessed some "eagle feathered" headdress for him, just trying to make himself seem somehow important by association with Mr. McClean, who was a humble man of integrity and would never knowingly abuse something held sacred, even if some here disagree. Thank you for all the feedback and honesty in the responses to my postings. I have tried to offer the same.
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i understand what you are saying and thank you for explaining what you feel and think.
Our way of life is not like christians or jewish we dont have that belief
where a person can come and just take and be part of who we are unless
they move in with us and live with us, This not the case with your friend
and it sound like he is a harmless old man. but he is spreading misinformation about
who we are do we just stand back well people lie about who we are or do we stand up
and say this is wrong and he dont have the right
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So, per your thoughts on this.. Let's say someone decided they were drawn to you and your way of life. And
so they pretended to be just like you, and without knowledge of you or your way of living, ended up making
a mockery of you, and spreading lies about you. And so people around your town or around the world, all
begin believing that you are what this other person has said you are. But you are not, it's all lies. That would be OK with you?
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Superdog, I was just told as a child and grew being told that he was an "Honorary Indian," that he had been made an Honorary Indian by the Native Americans. There was no reference to a tribe other than the "Apache" moniker, so I cannot confirm nor deny it. I would love it if someone that knew him through his travels and participation were available to speak on the subject. If I find more I will certainly share it either way it goes. He was a positive influence in my life.
Perhaps times were somewhat different then. I would like to think that there has been a growing awareness through the years of the need and value in retaining the wonderful and varied cultures of the world that have so thoughtlessly been all but stamped out. That awareness and commitment to retaining language, culture and traditions is bringing about positive and much needed changes in the world. That is why I joined this forum; to learn, to share, and because I think it is important not only to maintain cultural awareness, but hopefully, to have that awareness bring about dynamic, positive changes as they are shared cross-culturally. As I mentioned, back at that time the government and others were completely insensitive and actively working to eradicate Native American culture, and that is why I loved that he proudly wore that name and openly professed his love and value for the culture - though it may now be interpreted as offensive. I only hope that at the time it was not felt to be that way, because it was not by me and others I knew.
Thanks for engaging with me and providing a different perspective.
I'm hoping you'll keep reading. I do notice you are rather resistant to some things. Times have changed.
I don't doubt that Robert was a positive influence on your life. I don't doubt that there are many others who feel the same way, but I go back to the idea that his lore is bigger than the actual facts. In your defense of him, you stated factually that he was an "honorary member of the tribe". But, your side of the story doesn't come from the people who supposedly made him an "honorary member". So basically, you only have half that story....and it's hearsay.....not very good sourcing to state as fact.
The information disseminated in the 60's and 70's about Native people by popular media (including books by Mclean) isn't the greatest source either. Hollywood was still coming down from the high of decades of Westerns that perpetuated lots of stereotypes. While well-meaning people stepped in to try and change this....they often resisted letting them go. Many of the "Native" stars of that era weren't even Native. Iron Eyes Cody (aka The Crying Indian from the 70's psa) was the son of Sicilian immigrants born in Louisiana. Chief Jay Strongbow's parents were Italian.
From reading your posts you seem stuck in this era as well, but I don't believe in just saying that and then leaving the conversation. There are some good Native produced resources that talk about these various influences of Native peoples and American pop culture.
"Reel Injun" directed by Chris Eyre explores it from the aspect of cinema.
A good narrative theme that explores the negative results of do-gooders can be found in D'Arcy McKnickle's novel "Wind From an Enemy Sky".
And contrary to McLean's portrayal, Native people don't wear feathers and fringe everyday. Something that could be explored in modern Native produced social medias such as The 1491's youtube channel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/the1491s
For a more deep cerebral discussion on mascots please view some of the best minds dispelling many of the myths you also carry in your writing about this subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWpy7ozOwTU
(this one I recommend highly...a long video, but extremely informative...there are also many articles discussing this very symposium which took place this past February)
Hoping you'll explore on your own...and like I said...challenge some of the things you've allowed yourself to believe.
Robert was a nice person....but ultimately his legacy is being carried on by a myth that he was something that he was not, and in the case of UU....justification for racially caricaturing a set of cultures as if they didn't exist anymore.
Superdog
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Thank you for the reply and resources you provided Superdog. I will definitely go through them all and learn what I can from them. I am aware that many people depicting Native Americans in film and television have not or are not Native Americans. I don't know how I gave the impression that Mclean wore fringe and feathers everyday, but he did not. Indian jewelry in the form of a beautiful turquoise and silver watchband, yes, and sometimes bracelets and necklaces as well, but he was a school teacher and dressed in a manner appropriate.
While I am certainly willing to listen, learn, and explore through resources provided by others who have a different and perhaps more informed perspective than I, it does seem odd that people here, who never met or knew the man, his background, how he lived, what he did or did not do, or the type of person he was, have such strongly negative feelings about him. He traveled throughout the Southwest during the summers when he was not teaching, and it was always my understanding that he was living among the Natives. No, I did not follow along and take videos to provide future evidence. He was not a person to advertise or self promote. He did not take every opportunity he could to perform or garner attention. In fact, it was quite the opposite. He did not take understudies, apprentices and students, or teach anyone individually that I am aware of, nor did I ever know of him accepting money for performing. I use the term performance but that is not another reason to fault me as I do not know of a more appropriate term if there is one I should use. He took the rituals and prescribed preparations (as well as the things I don't know about) very seriously and did his best to treat those things sacred in an appropriate manner. That is one of the reasons it was not so easy to just have him come out and share with others. He was a very private man and getting him to perform and share his passion wasn't easy. It also took a great deal of time and effort on his part. He pursuit of knowledge and learning was a lifetime endeavor and a rather private one. It was by no means a weekend thing! I happen to be quite aware of him and his family because we lived so close to his family and one of his children was a friend of one of my siblings. I also admired him.
Folks here take a rather dim view of me because my views do not jive with theirs. That is their prerogative, though they do not know me, my background, my associations with Native Americans, or anything at all about me other than what I have mentioned here. I am fully aware that converting to Judaism or integrating into a new culture is not accomplished in a weekend. It can be accomplished though, and is by many. Unless there is some kind of belief I am unaware of that prevents anyone other than someone who is born Native American from learning about, sharing in, participating in, and being a part of the culture of one or more tribes, why is it so hard to believe that someone did it? He was not highly visible, and frankly, none of my friends even knew about him except if they ever got to see one of his performances, but other than that they knew nothing.
I have just been reading up on Pow Wow etiquette and learned that the outfits worn are never to be called costumes, but should be called regalia or outfits. I would like to suggest that just informing someone like myself of that who doesn't already know this might be a better approach than being critical or condescending like the response I got. At least I would then learn something important. I will reference the sources provided me by you Superdog, and truly appreciate your trying to help and inform rather than argue and ridicule. I may gain some new insights, grow, and learn, but overall I am somewhat disappointed with the tone I received on this forum and the arguments provided.
I did find a story about him explaining some things about the snake dance he performed in sections 20-21 on this site. Perhaps someone here can get some idea about his affiliation or where he might have learned what he says from it. I do know for a fact that he was studying, learning, and involved with Native Americans and learning about their culture from at least the time he was in college until his the end of his life; so more than 50 years. I do not think that qualifies as a weekend seminar or a passing interest.http://teaohou.natlib.govt.nz/journals/teaohou/issue/Mao65TeA/c7.html (http://teaohou.natlib.govt.nz/journals/teaohou/issue/Mao65TeA/c7.html)
I will continue studying and learning. At least the interaction and reception I received here has caused me to want to learn more and be better informed, and hope even those hostile to me understand I have a desire tolearn and understand.
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I am sorry you feel that we have was not accepted you in good way but that is not out intention.
How do you feel a tone of a post? I only gave you my opinion as a native person.
I check out the site and it only confused me more because it was about the Pubelo and Hopi dances
not apache dances that someone from from New Zealand watch?
It is not that we have strong negative feeling about this man, as i said before is a kind old man
it is just that he is promote things about our people that are not true.
If he was here to talk to us we would ask who taught you?
Who are your witness?
Which nation and which band or clan?
These are question we ask of our own people.
If he preformed a snake dance who gave him the rite?
It is our right to question we dont have the belief system that anyone can just came and take
our culture which is what christianity and Islam do that is not us.
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I apologize if I seemed hostile to you. I was merely trying to put you in someone else shoes.
Sometimes, that helps in understanding.
Glad you will stick around and continue to learn.
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earthw7, I understand that there is a great void in my personal knowledge and that Mr. McLean cannot defend himself here. I just don;t think he should have to defend himself. In actuality, he spent well over 60 years traveling and learning from Native Americans. I wish I had followed his every move to provide more detailed information and evidence. But as someone who was well aware of what he was doing, though not the specific details, I would think what I know about him, his character, disposition, and so on, would at least hold more sway about who he was than the things that have been said here by those who never met or knew him, and which are factually wrong.
Believe me, I more than anyone here wish a forum member was a Native American he associated with. As you can imagine, since he was born sometime around 1930 and just passed away last month, he was very old and most of those he associated with among the Natives would also be very old and not likely to be technologically savvy in the use of computers and forums. But I do hope that one who remembers him will show up at some point.
I will let those that disparage a great man who probably would not have even felt it worth wasting his time trying to defend himself against the accusations of those who knew nothing of him and his life work go on doing so it it makes them feel better. The fact is, whether one wishes to admit it or not, that times were indeed different and there was not the great movement among Natives to retain their heritage and inform others like there is today. Many of the customs, languages and traditions barely survived extinction. The assimilation movement was still held to be the way forward by many, many ignorant and thoughtless people.
I have watched "Reel Injuns." It seems to me to be along the lines of many things preventing understanding and harmony. Of course there is no defense for Hollywood's use of non-Native Americans to depict them, mangling their language and so on. But it is interesting to me that the depiction of Natives as being stoic warriors is griped about, as is the depiction of them not being great warriors. The reality is that no one in Hollywood movies has ever been portrayed or depicted in a real way. All cowboys were not fearless, fast with a gun, tough to the point they beat up anyone they wanted. Not all white people are like "Jersey Shore", "Seinfeld", or "Real Housewives", or "OC", or Elmer Fudd. People of every race could point to numerous instances of ridiculous and callous impressions presented by Hollywood.
People here have a right to question anything they want to. But if it is only matter of looking for a reason to find fault, be negative, or see things in the worst possible light, there will always be ways to do that and prevent real progress. I will continue sourcing the other reference materials and also made a list of the films mentioned in "Reel Injuns" so that I can watch those. One that was mentioned was "Rabbit Proof Fence." I saw that when it was first released and thought it one of the best films I'd ever seen.
I am glad it was not he intention to be hostile to me. It also was not my intention to cause problems or angst for those here. I was just trying to shed some light on the subject from my limited knowledge.
critter, I just saw you posted while I was typing. Thank you.
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earthw7, I understand that there is a great void in my personal knowledge and that Mr. McLean cannot defend himself here. I just don;t think he should have to defend himself. In actuality, he spent well over 60 years traveling and learning from Native Americans.
The reason some of us have a hard time believing that is he does not seem to have known what he was doing. He seems to have collected some objects, but he obviously did not understand proper cultural context and behaviour. Or worse, if he did learn what was proper, he chose to behave offensively. Either way, it's not good. On this forum, your words are being read by people from the tribes he misrepresented and, yes, exploited. We don't need to have met him in person. We can see from what he did and said that he got it wrong, and has created problems for Native people as well as for people like you who have been misled by him.
I will let those that disparage a great man who probably would not have even felt it worth wasting his time trying to defend himself against the accusations of those who knew nothing of him and his life work go on doing so it it makes them feel better. The fact is, whether one wishes to admit it or not, that times were indeed different and there was not the great movement among Natives to retain their heritage and inform others like there is today.
As others have already told you, you are continuing to insist on clinging to misinformation. You are continuing to call a man "great" for harming Native cultures. People are being kind to you, but I see you being insulting with responses like that.
There are cultural differences at work here. You think you know about cultures you simply don't know about, and when people have tried to educate you, you keep insisting you know better. I find this sad.
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There are cultural differences at work here. You think you know about cultures you simply don't know about, and when people have tried to educate you, you keep insisting you know better. I find this sad.
My feelings as well.
Superdog
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Well, you all seem to know a lot about what he did from reading one newspaper article. Apparently the reporter wasn't knowledgeable about all of the appropriate etiquette just like some of the rest of us. Oh yeah, and seeing one video with some dumb kid in it who doesn't even know it is illegal to own eagle feathers unless one is a Native with the right to based on their spiritual beliefs. That kid is by no means a reliable source! Mr. McLean did a hell of a lot more than collect a few objects! I told you, he devoted his life to Native Americans, participating in their culture, and sharing it with others. For anyone here to say that he misrepresented tribes, exploited them, created problems for Native Americans, misled or misinformed people when they don't even know specifically what he did is absurd and a person who is misleading others! Just because I don't remember every detail perfectly from every moment of my childhood, does not mean that he misinformed me. He didn't exploit anyone!!! I don't think I know a lot about Native culture. In fact I thought I might learn here. But apparently, your idea of learning is for me to agree with you on everything, and if I don't, ridicule me. And of course, when I do, still find something to fault in what I say or how I say it. I am very offended by the self righteous, arrogant, and condescending tone on this forum. People who make judgments with no information are not trustworthy. At least I knew the man and in a general way, what he was doing. He spent his life doing good things for Native Americans and the gratitude he gets is the despicable display I've seen here? No thank you. People here don't even have the common courtesy to just inform someone who doesn't know, in a civil manner, that the outfits that are worn during Native dances and ceremonies are properly referred to as regalia. Instead, it is somehow thought appropriate to be snide and insulting instead. I will take my thirst for knowledge elsewhere. If you folks are so well connected, why don't you make some contacts throughout the Southwest and find out the truth about what he did. He was well loved among many Natives of his generation. Au voir. Won't be visiting this site again, nor will anyone I tell about it. I have the sense this web site is the home of plastic shamans!
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f0rumu$er,
You're saying "I don't know much, but I sure know more about your culture than you do, because I learned it from this authority you don't recognize! Can't you see how right I am and how blind you all are?!"
Can't you see how hurtful and counterproductive that is? Can you not admit that perhaps the "experts" are right and you are wrong? I guess not. It's easier to double down on your defensiveness and get all -passive aggressive than it is to learn something you didn't want to know, isn't it? You seem to have a lot of emotion invested in being right about this person, because you can't or won't listen to reason about him.
As for Reel Injun, a positive stereotype remains a stereotype, and most movies are still written, financed and made, not by a mysterious entity called Hollywood, but by white people. White people are free to mock ourselves (a la Elmer Fudd), as is every other race. White people, having most of the power in this society, are not free to mock or pose as those who have less power than they have unless they want to be considered racists.
And things that point out this racism do not "prevent...understanding and harmony," they make it possible. As long as we all look the other way and pretend redface is cool and fake shamans are awesome because they make some people feel awesome, there will be no change...not change for the better, anyway. But you...when racism is pointed out to you, you holler "YOU'RE the racist!" When people use their precious time writing posts to try and teach you, you yell "No, YOU'RE the plastic shaman!" You are a very poor advertisement for the "good influence" of Mr. McLean.
People really have been remarkably delicate with you. I don't know what purpose anyone thinks that serves, so I'll come out and say you're behaving like the spoiled rotten offspring of a jackass here. This forum doesn't exist to hold your hand, justify your beliefs, or soothe your ego.
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He didn't exploit anyone!!!
That's your opinion. My opinion is, it's debatable.
This a blog posting of a 1994 ten day trip called the Marlboro Adventure (a trek across the wild west..mostly foreigners)
http://chingnengbin.blogspot.com/2008/12/1994-marlboro-adventure-team-usa.html
If you scroll down you'll find several pictures of Robert in different sets of regalia, performing dances for the participants at one of the cabins they stayed at....basically dinner theater. He also posed with the participants and even lent one of his headresses so one of the participants could have his picture taken while wearing it.
When he was illustrating books and producing VHS tapes, the tapes include the mention of Mclean Enterprises.
One of your defenses of him was that this was a very private pursuit...I just don't see it. My guess is this personal connection is much more personal than you relate. That's how you come off. The end result of your defense of him IMHO has actually made him look worse. The venom in your posts contributes to that.
I have no reason to thank Robert. He has done nothing for my tribe and his legacy proves troublesome. The lore overshadows the facts...(another example: an auction listing for one Mclean's necklaces, description reads "old squash blossom necklace purchased from famous indian dancer Apache McLean" http://www.liveauctionworld.com/old-squash-blossom-necklace-purchased-from-famous_i8920881) I have nothing to be ungrateful for.
Was he a fraud? I don't believe that, but he did lead people to believe the wrong things about him. Was he a real help to Natives? In some ways....but in other ways damaging. Unfortunately, it's the damaging parts that continue to live on in the attitudes of UU fans who misrepresent what he was all about....I don't understand why you give a pass to those that use his name to justify their drunken behaviors. For some reason we're the problem for wanting to talk about it....interesting....but not something I haven't seen before. Good luck forumuser....I hope you can calm yourself enough to realize that sometimes hearing what we don't want to hear is sometimes what we need to hear.
Superdog
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ok.....apache twinkie name.....store named after kiva....totems in front yard......i bet he had a dreamcatcher too........anyways thats "generic pan indian" and not tribe specific and as a pueblo anyone calling their store "kiva" enrages me
i dont think you get it bro......we look at twinkies the same way a black man looks at a wigger.....no matter how muh "good" you do it's still never respectful and it misrepresents us