Author Topic: Stefan Klemenc /Neil Greenwood  (Read 41932 times)

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Stefan Klemenc /Neil Greenwood
« on: December 26, 2007, 05:51:27 pm »
Let's face another fact: your name is not Neil Greenwood but Stefan Klemenc, and you enjoy pretending to be a condor.

Can you please explain why you think this is okay but that a German pretending to be White Buffalo Calf Woman is not okay?

Offline Greenwood

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Re: What about to do with Frauds and Plastics?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 12:51:59 am »
My full name is Stefan Neil Klemenc - Greenwood (Grünwald).

Lets face the difference: I am not making money with being a Condordancer - people tend to avoid a person which is working with vulture, and be it the way I do it. Vultures are not THAT popular as for example an Eagle is. The animal which I "pretend" to be is one I am very familiar with, being a learned falconer and worked with these animals some years in the (former) greatest falconry of europe in Bad Wörishofen - you may ask Falconmaster Herbert Schmidt about this and about the relationship these birds established with me, before I actually had any inclination of working spiritually with them. He actually gifted me the feathers I used, which were collected over a timespan of 20 years. The dance does not have any relations to the cultures of South America except the animal which lives there. In order to avoid a possible pre-justice by Natives here I registered with my alternate name I always use in english speaking communities. I am not pretending being an Native American (this time from South America) - on the contrary: I emphasize the cultural indepent way I am going there. I am part of an european line of geomantics and magicians (handed down by my father and grandfather). Until recently we avoided even using the internet as medium because the prosecution we still have to face from church and many institutions adjacent to this power-structure.

The only thing you can blame me is using a quechua term for describing the entity I am dancing: "Apu Kuntur" is the best-fitting term, with many levels of meaning, which describes the entity best. The german terms simply do not fit. I am completely aware of this terms origin in the quechua language. If you have a better one I am open to it. Maybe the term "possession trance" is not too familiar to you - I do not remember much American Indians familiar with such practics. In european magic (okay, more precisely: in southern german and in traditional evocatory magic) this is part of the daily practice. During the last years I was contacted and worked with some physicians and parapsychologicians because I do actually manifest things which cannot be explained by suggestion or hypnosis. The bad thing is that these incidents are not controllable in the way of being replicable under laboratory conditions.

Regarding "pretending being a Condor" there is a vital difference: I am NOT pretending this - simply put: try to find only ONE feather of this animal or try to get one. You simply are going to fail. Try to get into possession trance and then blame me again of pretending something. If you think I am an Fraud or something: I have translated (as only person!) the old Declaration of War against exploitation of Native Spirituality and Rituals. I am not offering any rituals which are original Native in origin. I simply walk my way. When you do not know anything about this kind of trance - keep your ball low because I am specialized in this kind of works.

This Buffallo Woman simply pretends being something that does not exist in reality AND actually is a Native American mythological concept. She makes money with this and thus exploits a cultural aspect of the Natives over there. Of course you can say similar things about the Condor - BUT: the Condor is an animal and no mythological figure. You cannot deny that the Condor exists as animal and is short of being extincted. The White Buffallo Woman on the other side is clearly a pure mythological concept (technically). She does not exist in real-life. BTW she has learned from another Fraud: M. Kohfink or "Tacansina" - a person which avoids my because I am still hunting him down because he is an imposter, IMHO.

Another thing you may find strolling my Website: Since I am in the WWW sometimes artisans contact me, or I am contacting them. One of them is an Aymara (Roberto Mamani Mamani) whose pictures I am presenting in the Condor's section. If he is a Fraud or NewAgePlastic I really do not know - I hope not: he creates really good art.

If I would exploit South American Cultures I would not have had the guts of registering here. I can defend my position and stand for it. Can YOU do the same?

Yours,

Neil Greenwood.

P.S.: A better overview you find here: www.kondor.de/condor/tanz_e.html
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 01:37:11 am by Greenwood »
Dwn-'nwj - "He who unfolds two wings": Himmiherrgotzaggramentzefixallelujamilextamarschscheissglumpfaregtz!

Offline Greenwood

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Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2007, 01:29:04 am »
I want to clarify another thing: I registered here primarily because I found Sarangarel posted here. A board where she was active is something which interests me - it was a shock for me that she passed away. I lost contact in 2003 or so, it was hard to keep also because she was living in a region with instable connections. I myself had much difficulties to face during that time and had only contact once after this with her father, which must have taken place short before her passing away, because we chatted about total different stuff.

After I realized that she is no longer among the living my acitivities here are focussing on that what I do here in germany: hunting Frauds and Plastics. As it goes I may have found another one, I am still investigating this one, but actually I do only have his name "Spirit Bear" and some informations that he lives in germany. I am behind this one, as I was with Xoko and Harner (anyway: thank to your board I now clearly can distance myself from these persons). Here I find many answers on persons and frauds active here in germany. I had my fight with followers of Swift Deer as well as with Sonja Emilia, who sells Ayahuasca ceremonies and Sweat-Lodges (for 500 bucks! when I remember this correctly). I realized that it does not help much telling the truth: people tend to ignore it. So I asked this question about what to do with these frauds.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

P.S.: Would you please restore the initial question?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 01:39:10 am by Greenwood »
Dwn-'nwj - "He who unfolds two wings": Himmiherrgotzaggramentzefixallelujamilextamarschscheissglumpfaregtz!

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2007, 01:53:35 am »
We've had people come here who were clearly frauds before. (I'm not saying you are, wait a moment until I get to that.) Often many frauds scan the internet anxiously either looking for any attention paid to them, or wanting to shut down any criticism or expose with threats of lawsuits, etc. In several case we've had frauds like Scarlet McKinney or Nicholas Spence desperately trying to convince themselves, more than anyone else, that what they were doing was somehow not fraudulent or exploitative.

I don't see any sign of you making money or gathering up a group of followers. But you clearly do intend for the site to be a "how to" primer for other would be shamans. And you believe in some of the very plastics you claim to oppose.

Quoting at length from one of the worst frauds, Ted Andrews.
http://www.kondor.de/condor/totem_e.html

And you are looking for an eagle dancer to fulfill what you imagine the prophecies about eagles and condors to be.
http://www.kondor.de/condor/eagledance.html

This claim and this attempt to misuse the prophecies for your personal wishes would get you a lot of argument from just about anyone Native.

"This dance is a spiritual thing and does not belong to any tradition. The manifestation of the Spirit of the Eagle and the Spirit of the Condor during the dance is a personal vision."

Neither is true. Clearly the prophecies come from very specific longstanding tribal traditions. And I don't mean the Nuage version that makes a lot of unlikely claims about the Quechua village of Qero, often mistakenly called "Qero Indians" by Nuagers.

Much of your site does claim to be about South American Indian traditions and prophecies, and the impression most readers would get is that you claim to be trained in South American Indian traditions, dances, and "shamanism." Perhaps you don't intend that to be, but that's the way your site comes across.

Again, so far I don't see any signs that your claim of opposing plastics is insincere. But I do think you still have much to learn.

Offline Greenwood

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2007, 02:49:22 am »
Okay, the third attempt. Two times my Notebook made a mockery of my attempts writing.

First off: I did not knew Andrews being flagged as Fraud. Thanks for this bit. I am deleting his passage tomorrow.

In fact only a tiny part of my website refers to SouthAmerican traditions. I have a large section dealing with a certain part of Siberian Traditions (being again the only one translating old stories from shamans into english) and of shamanic techniques in general. Another one actually emphasizes my own roots. BTW: Never ever I have claimed being trained by S-A-Natives. I do not speak Spanish or Quechua (any dialect) well enough. I am clarifying this, too. Thank you again.

Yes, I refer to the prophecy (and I do not have any idea what you meant with "Not the Nuage-Version of it" because I do not know any other variation of the prophecy then the one I am refering to) - and when you actually try to understand it you are going to find that the prophecy is clear in its formulations but open to interpretation. Face the fact that until today (and these are nearly 10 years now) NO Native ever complained about what I do in any form. You are in fact the first one actually having a problem there and telling me about this. And my Website is well-known. In fact  the few reactions I DID receive during the years from them were positive in nature. There were no accusation of any kind until now (which I expected taking place sometimes - I wondered already not finding myself discussed here).

The prophecy is very clear in formulation and content. So what is your problem (or that of any Native) when I try to find an Eagle-Dancer with whom I can perform this dance? I simply have not found anyone meeting the requirements. That alone tells a story, until today I had rather bad experiences with these Fraud-Indians around. It IS true that an Eagle or a Condor is not interested in any cultural interpretation, these are powers without any cultural obligations to any Nation or Tribe and no prophecy can change this. These spirits would circle in the sky even when there are no humans at all below watching them. I have stated clearly my intents. I have to live with the accusations made by you and maybe by others - but I am not going to change one bit of my vision or plan only because you or others think I would misuse a prophecy with such great indications. I would betray my vision and my life and rather prefer to die instead of changing this plan. If there is an Eagle Dancer around capable of entering such a deep trance then he is going to contact me sometimes because he or she actually realize what I am up to do. Maybe he or she does come from a part of the world we both actually do not have in mind? What do you think the prophecy is all about?
 
To my knowledge this prophecy seems to be known in other Nations, too. A certain variation is the one of the Q'ero village. A clearance would help, of course, because I am not that sure about this point.

"This claim and this attempt to misuse the prophecies for your personal wishes would get you a lot of argument from just about anyone Native." - Well, then be it this way. I can only repeat what I have written since I am no liar or imposter of anything. I live with the Condors Spirit and cannot live against my spirituality. Part of this spirituality is dancing the Condor. If there is any Native around who can do the same - I would be glad to know him or her personally. I did not want to do this dance openly. In fact I did it in secret for seven years. Only recently - since 2006 - I am performing it in front of peoples who want to attend there (by the ways: I do not charge anything - this performance is a gift for anyone who wishes to be there).

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

P.S.: Modifications are done.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 09:32:19 am by Greenwood »
Dwn-'nwj - "He who unfolds two wings": Himmiherrgotzaggramentzefixallelujamilextamarschscheissglumpfaregtz!

Offline barbara

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2007, 02:36:17 pm »
Dear Stefan or Neil or elsewhat,
on your homepage you very often quote Paul Uccusic. He belongs as many others to Michael Harners Shamanic Foundation. You should read the different threads of Harner and others working together with him. Maybe you and weissebuffelfrau aren't so different....

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2007, 02:44:22 pm »
"I refer to the prophecy (and I do not have any idea what you meant with "Not the Nuage-Version of it" because I do not know any other variation of the prophecy then the one I am refering to) - and when you actually try to understand it you are going to find that the prophecy is clear in its formulations but open to interpretation."

Almost everything out there on the net about the prophecy comes from Nuage sources, nearly all of which I would not trust.
 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=eagle+and+condor+prophecy&btnG=Google+Search

And often that leads to some pretty bizarre claims, with self appointed "shamans".
http://ayahuasca.tribe.net/thread/a7b95ff8-bae1-4121-b3f5-5a2b93e9e43b

If you take a look at that link you'll see alleged elders and curanderos arguing back and forth, each one less credible the more you read. Wild claims that Lakota, Navajo, and Cherokee traditions include this prophecy, none of which is true as far as I know.

My personal favorite was the guy jokingly calling himself Rumbling Thunder Butt, which none of them seemed to get.



A couple interesting things from that last link:
"Aramis
Re: True Union of Eagle & Condor
Today, 1:15 AM
Actually the whole eagle/condor thing is a bit weird. The sacred bird of the Amazon is the harpy eagle, not the condor. That's a mountain bird, and since mountain shamans use huachuma, then ayahuasca wouldn't figure into it. Still, I suppose that a 'union between the eagle and the eagle' just doesn't have the same marketing appeal. Speaking of marketing, is it just me or does some of the blurb on his profile sound like bahai stuff?
It all sounds like twatty, quasi-mystical, new-age crap to me, anyway. Is there any money in it? :) "



One of the self proclaimed elders was then exposed twisting the prophecy to suit his Bahai beliefs.

-----
Apparently "Seven Thunders" believes his tale about his Native American origins won't come back to haunt him. Here is what he told me in email about his actual decent on February 13th:

"Regrettably, though mostly of Lebanese decent, my family uprooted from Lebanon (Miziara Region - NE of Tripoli, and about 25 minutes from Khalil Gibrans home) and relocated to the Caribean Islands. Hence, my first language is Spanish...I have only begun learning Arabic in more recent years."

The explicitly Baha'i angle of his work was also spelled out in the same email when he stated the following:

"So back to the essentials. I was introduced to the Bab and
Baha'u'llah completely by accidently back in 1993; however, as I later
understood, not by the mainstreem Baha'is. There was something about
this Doctrine that rung true, so I started to investigate. By 1994, I
was interested in exploring more deeply and went to learn more of the
Baha'i doctrine from the teacher of the person who had introduced me.
Oh dear God, what was that for! Before I knew it I was caught between
a student and a teacher both making claims to the same thing and
spewing venom on one another. This before I hardly had any deepening
in these matters, having come from a mostly esoteric/occult
background.

By 1996, while working with certain native american tribes I took an
apprenticeship with a Lokata Medicine Man. Little did I know but his
primary sponsor in the mundane things of life was a Native American
Baha'i family - Mainstream Baha'i. My apprenticeship lasted until
1999, however my relations with this family lasted until 2003. Though
there were times when I would pose questions to them regarding the
Baha'i Faith, most of my dealings were related to the medicine ways.
The main reason for this is that given the expereinces I had already
had with 'Baha'is', I thought it best to observe and study quiety and
privately. More-over there was such incongruity between what they did
and what they preached, that I thought it prudent.

Off the chronology, I will also mention that in 1998, I went to live
in Egypt for a few months, and at that time took the opportunity to
visit Haifa & etc...Obviously not as a Baha'i 'Pilgrim', but just a
regular person interested in learning. When I arrived at Akka, the
day I went to the Shrine of Ali Nuri, Ruhiya Khanum was there
visiting. At first the guards were incredibly rude to me, and
suggested that I go visit the gardens as that was what people
preferred to do there.

What this guard did not know, is that while in Egypt, the medicine man
and his Baha'i apprentice brought me an internal memo from the Baha'is
of Canada written back in 1984 by Ruhiya Khanum. In this letter she
discussed the significance of the Native Americans to the unfoldment
of the Work as well as the beauty and significance of the Peace Pipe.
She also admoinishes those Persian Baha'is who as she says,
"Continuously miss the Bus" in there total lack of respect for the
customs of the Natives. She instructs the Persians to not as so much
as go near a Native if they are unable to respect them.

I found the guard to be so calous, that I pulled out this letter and
began to read it to the him. Naturally, he fell silent, and called
upon the Shrine Keeper. The Shrine steward was a nice enough man, who
told me that after Ruhiya left he would allow me into the shrine
alone. I showed him the letter, and the Peace Pipe which I carried.
I think this is a pretty significant story...Ruhiya died about 1-1 1/2
years later.

By 2000, I was introduced to Grandmother Ayahuasca, and this changed
everything as it represented a unification of many things in my life.
Then, in June of 2001, something very significant happened, which in
my view is the True fullfilment of Mustaghath. Around the first week
of June of 2001 I began to unexpectly have very profound dreams that
demanded I persue what I refer to as a golden thread. I researched,
and research and researched for weeks, until I found the Prophecy of
Mustaghath, and I knew this was what I was looking for...But I did not
know why. So I kept at it, until I found the answer, which is this:
On June 21, 2001, the Summer Solstice, the first Total Solar Eclipse
of the Millenium Occured. For all those that debated whether 2000 or
2001 was the first year of the millenium, this provided the answer.
In 2000 there were NO full solar eclipses, and the very first Solar
Eclipse of 2001 occurred exactly on the Summer Solstice. This
represented a seeding into the Earth of a new Current of Light - the
Light of He who is Invoked.

During this period, I was shown a prophecy of a great cataclysm, and
that it would occur within "ONE QUARTER turn of the Sun" from
Mustaghath...Namely by September 21, 2001. I told several of the
elders and my family about the prophecy. We all know what happened.
Needless to say, that even with "fore-knowledge", if we can call it
that, it struck me as a great surprise."

Being a soft Guenonian (a somewhat devotee to the writings of Rene Guenon) I am generally suspicious of anything that smacks remotely of counter-initiatic inversion or counterfeit esotericism, and when we have a white Arab boy trying to talk the talk of a curandero-shaman, I am doubly so. As such your own suspicions are well placed. It seems he has been doing this quite a lot with other people as well, which says to me he is fishing for disciples. Beware of this individual. Spiritual predator is written all over this one here...Scam is an understatement.

How is that for your 7th Thunder, Lobo??
-----


You asked about the Qero. I would not trust most of what is said about that village anymore than I would trust most of what is claimed about Sedona here in the US. There are a huge number of dubious claims, most done for money or to impress outsiders, based on the false assumption that the Qeros  were isolated for five centuries and thus somehow "purer" Indians or Incans.


"what is your problem (or that of any Native) when I try to find an Eagle-Dancer with whom I can perform this dance?"

Picture this:

A white guy with an interest in shamanism tells a Native elder (or more likely asks young mestizos who he's come into contact with, who in turn pass along the message) that he knows a lot about the prophecy and would like to be part of it. Not just that, but he wants a sacred traditional dance mixed together with his own new dance.

Can you imagine me going up to a Catholic priest and saying this?

"Hey, I know all about how you Christians view lambs and doves. I've got a new version of mass I'd like to do with you. Just turn over one of your altar boys to me. I'd like to hand out my own communion wafers mixed with yours. Mine are my own recipe."

How do you think he would look at me?

Mixing of traditions is not something to be done casually. A change in ceremony would be done carefully ***if it were to ever come at all***.

You mentioned that you've had bad experiences with plastics. I think they are likely to be the only ones interested, and for all the wrong reasons. You probably have had things like this happen:

A mestizo cab driver overhears what you want done and thinks "Who do I know who speaks a few words of Quechua that will impress this guy? I know! That old guy on the corner who hasn't worked in weeks. He'll do. Let's see how much money we can get out of him."

Offline Greenwood

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2007, 03:03:41 pm »
Barbara: My first contacts with Paul were in 1991 and spanned till 1993. I am still in personal contact with Paul, who is aging more then 80 years by now. Back then I did not know better. As I mentioned I am reworking many parts - and I am very critical about the FSS today: they sell a three-years-program in which they actually sell a Native Ritual (that one in which you are bondaged and being freed by the spirits. I think this is the shaking tent ritual) - I got that information some months ago which was the final push for me distancing me much more clearly. Today I do not recommend the FSS anymore. I have to rework more then 900 html-pages in two languages and I can tell you: there is much to do. Ever tried to do that besides your daily activities and job?

New stuff regarding Viola: Currently my actions are fruitful because her followers begin to question her. Some are leaving already.

The point is that I actually do not copy or do anything like that - I am pretty sure that in the Andes there are no possession-trance-states known. Well, that may be a blind-spot and the real situation is otherwise. But I clearly stated all that already that it is by no means a traditional dance I perform. Okay, some guys cannot read and are unable to think, too. But these are everywhere in all colors available ... - with this kind of stuff I am rather used to deal on a daily base.

I know what you are meaning - but I am no silly White-Ass who cannot distinguish between real claims and Wannabes. Unfortunately the most Indians journeying here in Germany are listed here ... - most of them I already had in suspicion. For example Xoko. He is clever enough to fool many here. Another one is Villoldo who is avoiding me, also this Tacansina whom I disqualified for myself already in 92.

What would you do when you would be this bishop when some indian appears out of nowhere, actually doing the stuff which YOU should do but you can't because you are bound in traditions? I am not altering any traditional dance in the first place: When there actually WERE any trance-dance of the Condor in the Andes this dance is since long time no part of their traditions anymore - with the little reminder that I may err here because I simply do not have any deeper knowledge on this point. To answer this question: I am not doing this stuff, I do not conduct mesas or similar things belonging in the Andes. I would not appear before this bishop - he is of no interest to me because I would not know his rites and all. If he would ask me about his prophecy-text I would reply: "Look, I am walking my path. Your prophecy gave me some really interesting ideas about a kind of dance - take it as a honoring of the content of this prophecy or leave it - because I am up to do this dance anyway: it is my life as it is your life to take care for your community. We are of total different cultural backgrounds. Look - I am a Native here in my lands and you in your lands. I respect what you do and believe"

Okay, after supper I am fit enough again to click through the links. I am prepared of reading awkward things, but I need some cups of Darjeeling first before I can digest this.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

P.S.: For the sake of clarity I remain with Neil Greenwood. It is as real as my other name (the second half) - BTW: I do not have any problems when f.e. Japanese people celebrate X-Mas or New Years eve. And they do not even pretend being christian (nor do I).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 03:40:48 pm by Greenwood »
Dwn-'nwj - "He who unfolds two wings": Himmiherrgotzaggramentzefixallelujamilextamarschscheissglumpfaregtz!

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2007, 06:18:49 pm »
GW
Quote
The animal which I "pretend" to be is one I am very familiar with, being a learned falconer
GW
Quote
you may ask Falconmaster Herbert Schmidt about this and about the relationship these birds established with me, before I actually had any inclination of working spiritually with them.

Neil, there are no Condors in Europe, so in reality, contrary to your claims here, you have absolutely no real life relationship with Condors.

GW
Quote
The dance does not have any relations to the cultures of South America except the animal which lives there.
GW
Quote
The only thing you can blame me is using a quechua term for describing the entity I am dancing: "Apu Kuntur" is the best-fitting term, with many levels of meaning, which describes the entity best. The german terms simply do not fit.
GW
Quote
only a tiny part of my website refers to SouthAmerican traditions.
GW
Quote
Yes, I refer to the prophecy
GW
Quote
The prophecy is very clear in formulation and content. So what is your problem (or that of any Native) when I try to find an Eagle-Dancer with whom I can perform this dance?
GW
Quote
It IS true that an Eagle or a Condor is not interested in any cultural interpretation, these are powers without any cultural obligations to any Nation or Tribe and no prophecy can change this. These spirits would circle in the sky even when there are no humans at all below watching them.

So you understand you are using a prophesy which is attributed to South American or American Indian traditions, but then you claim the powers which you believe you are possessed by, have no cultural obligations to any Nation or Tribe .

GW
Quote
the Condor is an animal and no mythological figure.

The one you believe yourself in touch with is a mythological figure, not a real animal .

GW
Quote
I live with the Condors Spirit and cannot live against my spirituality. Part of this spirituality is dancing the Condor.
GW
Quote
The point is that I actually do not copy or do anything like that - I am pretty sure that in the Andes there are no possession-trance-states known.
GW
Quote
Maybe the term "possession trance" is not too familiar to you - I do not remember much American Indians familiar with such practics. In european magic (okay, more precisely: in southern german and in traditional evocatory magic) this is part of the daily practice.
GW
Quote
Try to get into possession trance and then blame me again of pretending something.
GW
Quote
When you do not know anything about this kind of trance - keep your ball low because I am specialized in this kind of works

I know that possesion trances are considered exceedingly dangerous by both European and other traditions. It is like opening the door of your house - anything might come in, and what does may not be what a person believes it to be. I know people who have had very bad experiences messing with these things . The cultures that do work with such things almost all have very stringent protective protocols in place . Your comment that the powers you believe you are in touch with have no cultural obligations doesn't sound like there is any protective cultural protocols in place , as that is what those cultural obligations are there for. The fact that you are imagining you are working with spirits which have no affiliation to either your culture or the part of the world where you live , does nothing to reassure me you are involved with something that is real, or is what you believe it is .   

GW
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The White Buffallo Woman on the other side is clearly a pure mythological concept (technically). She does not exist in real-life.

GW
Quote
This Buffallo Woman simply pretends being something that does not exist in reality AND actually is a Native American mythological concept.

You think the condor spirit you are imagining you are in touch with is less a mythological concept than White Buffalo Woman ?

I don't think you mean to be insulting, but you do seem to be having a hard time telling the difference between things that are real, and things that are in your imagination.  And just being able to point at other people who are involved in claiming things that aren't real , doesn't automatically mean that what you believe is....

GW
Quote
BTW: I do not have any problems when f.e. Japanese people celebrate X-Mas or New Years eve. And they do not even pretend being christian (nor do I).

Well for one thing Christmas has turned into the Grand Ceremony of Consumerism, so it is easy for people who aren't Christian but are Consumers to celebrate it. And New Years has nothing at all to do with Christianity.

Christianity as a religion strongly distances itself from "the flesh", so by it's very nature it doesn't have strong ties to the land or any particular community or culture, and , as a belief system , it is easily transfered to any community which is willing to detach itself from real life in the area people really live. This practice of putting matters of the flesh on the back burner has some things in common with the basic New Age philosophy, and also to imagining a "real" connection with real animals that live on an entirely different continent.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but what you believe does not sound real to me, and if it is real in some way , it might be dangerous.   
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 06:29:05 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: What about to do with Frauds and Plastics?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2007, 06:30:47 pm »
I am not making money with being a Condordancer...The dance does not have any relations to the cultures of South America except the animal which lives there...I emphasize the cultural indepent way I am going there...I am not offering any rituals which are original Native in origin.

Rrrrright...so none of the hippies and bemused schoolchildren you do your dance in front of think it has anything to do with South American Indians? Despite the Quechua title you've given yourself, despite the South American vulture feathers? They all think, "Yep, that's a German cultural tradition all right"?

As EducatedIndian has pointed out, your site gives quite a different impression. You are recklessly misleading people and you protestations remind me of a recently-deceased English comedian, Bernard Manning, who told a lot of racist jokes. He and his apologists protested that they were only harmless jokes, not meant to be taken seriously: he liked black people really, what's the problem? Unfortunately many of his fans took the jokes seriously because they enjoyed having their racist beliefs confirmed. Similarly, for those who hold comfortably stereotypical beliefs about Indians and other indigenous people, your antics and your site confirm and reinforce them.

About Viola Flambé, the miraculous German White Buffalo Calf Woman, Annika asked 'since her people has waited for years for her return, why is she hiding out in Germany?'

I have similar questions for you: why would a condor-spirit choose you? I imagine it would prefer to spend its time convincing Andean farmers not to shoot and poison real condors, perhaps enlisting the help of people who actually live in the Andes. Meanwhile many European raptor species are critically endangered. How do you help them?

Quote
If I would exploit South American Cultures I would not have had the guts of registering here.

Plenty of people have been absolutely astounded and outraged to find themselves criticised here. After all, they're spiritual - so how could they possibly do anything wrong?

Offline Greenwood

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 09:54:23 pm »
"Rrrrright...so none of the hippies and bemused schoolchildren you do your dance in front of think it has anything to do with South American Indians? Despite the Quechua title you've given yourself, despite the South American vulture feathers? They all think, "Yep, that's a German cultural tradition all right"?

Oh, I would eagerly dance in front of schoolchildren as in April. [Personal insults deleted.] I tell them about the Andean Condor and what this bird does. I tell them about my dance, yes. But one thing you do not see and will never see: the dreaming eyes and the laughter of them when they feel the Condor's energy. Yeah - you said I am imagin all this. Then you attended one of my dances? No? [Personal insults deleted.]

"Neil, there are no Condors in Europe, so in reality, contrary to your claims here, you have absolutely no real life relationship with Condors."

Maybe you overread the fact that I has been working with these birds some years - I am a falconer and the Condors are real, as the feathers are (and I have given the name of my falconmaster, who is retired by now). I was not aware in the first time what was going on, but these birds really loved me. You are right that this bird is not a endemic bird here in europe, but I did not choose it. You need not believe me there. [Personal insults deleted.] No one thinks that that what I am doing is german tradition. [Personal insults deleted.] And it is just soo easy to get Condorfeathers, yes. You only have to ask one and the bird wholeheartedly gives away all feathers. Yah, my own feathers are all fantasy - you have found it out! You did not read my Website. This is obvious.

In the Andes there are no such rites which I perform here in germany. I have already written all what is to say. You demonstrate that you simply see the flag "Whitey pretending to be ...." and thats it. [Personal insults deleted.]

I do not know whether there is anyone in the Andes who is chosen by the Condor as I am. So - if you know anyone over there, contact him. I want this. You don't know anyone?

"The one you believe yourself in touch with is a mythological figure, not a real animal."

Yea, and Condors are not real animals. OMG.

"So you understand you are using a prophesy which is attributed to South American or American Indian traditions, but then you claim the powers which you believe you are possessed by, have no cultural obligations to any Nation or Tribe."

Repeat: An animal is an animal is an animal. I have written down what I know about the things I learned and still learning. [Personal insults deleted.]

Concerning your [personal insult deleted] comment regarding possession rites: as I have written. Keep your ball low. You underestimate people like me strongly. Not everything what I do you find openly in the Internet. And you demonstrate why.

"I don't think you mean to be insulting, but you do seem to be having a hard time telling the difference between things that are real, and things that are in your imagination.  And just being able to point at other people who are involved in claiming things that aren't real , doesn't automatically mean that what you believe is...."

Thanks for your medical diagnosis of shizophrenia. Ever had the idea that YOU are wrong?

" ... and if it is real in some way , it might be dangerous. "

Yes - absolutely. [Numerous personal insults.]

I prefer a discussion with respect of each other. You are lacking respect. You actually have shown your worst side. Listen: here in germany there are real dangerous persons on the way which imposter being indian and all that. They sell their soul for money and your rituals for $$ (sorry €€). Guys like you make it rather difficult for me to find sympathy for your folk or tribe. Your name is scottish. McEwan is no indian name. You say that I might be dangerous. Do you really want me to be dangerous?

I was harsh, too. Thank yourself for that.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

[Al's note: We don't reward childishness in here. You don't help anyone by losing your temper. Barnaby's questions were perfectly reasonable. Why you only lost your temper with his questions and not anyone else's is a question you'll have to answer for yourself.

And incidentally, he is neither Native nor Scottish, though some Natives do have Scottish names.]
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 11:18:51 pm by educatedindian »
Dwn-'nwj - "He who unfolds two wings": Himmiherrgotzaggramentzefixallelujamilextamarschscheissglumpfaregtz!

Offline Greenwood

  • Posts: 24
Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2007, 10:09:13 pm »
"I have similar questions for you: why would a condor-spirit choose you? I imagine it would prefer to spend its time convincing Andean farmers not to shoot and poison real condors, perhaps enlisting the help of people who actually live in the Andes. Meanwhile many European raptor species are critically endangered. How do you help them?"

The Condor is being poisoned by lead and DDT in the Andes and not really treated as it should be. You know that - great point to you. He chose me and gave me the feathers for the dance. It is not your problem, but mine. In the Andes the Condor is feared and is associated with thunderstorms and of course the mountains. Maybe it chose another one in the Andes. I do not know. And be sure of this: HERE I would never ever give any answer to the question: Why? Ask yourself why this is so. Read your own posting and you know.

In contrast to you I did learn how to deal with birds of prey and know what is possible and what not. So I have to help all species around which are endangered because I am spiritual, or what? Guy, what strange ideas you have. There are people around who are professional in doing this. I do not know what you do for a living - want to make my job? I am helping old and dying people living through their last days and weeks. Of course a really job a misleading person like I am can dream of, with my Megabucks I earn with all my dances and so on.

In your eyes I am a Fraud and a Plastic and nothing I am writing can convince you otherwise. So much is clear and I know one of my enemies. Don't think I hit the panic-button now. I am used to it, but usually from the Fraud-Site.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 11:03:38 pm by Greenwood »
Dwn-'nwj - "He who unfolds two wings": Himmiherrgotzaggramentzefixallelujamilextamarschscheissglumpfaregtz!

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2007, 11:20:51 pm »
GW
Quote
Maybe you overread the fact that I has been working with these birds some years - I am a falconer and the Condors are real, as the feathers are (and I have given the name of my falconmaster, who is retired by now). I was not aware in the first time what was going on, but these birds really loved me. You are right that this bird is not a endemic bird here in europe, but I did not choose it.
GW
Quote
You did not read my Website. This is obvious

Neil it's true I didn't have time to read all your website, and I am just commenting on the information you posted here.  If there is somewhere on your website a story about caged Andean Condors living in Germany that you made friends with, along with some falcons,  I apologize for thinking you don't have a real relationship with any real Condors - but that is as far as my apology extends.

In the world as I know it, what you have said is not likely to be "real".

Whether or not you have known real condors ( and I'm still not clear on this as i don't have time to search out that part of your story) I think I am being fair in assuming the condor spirit and possesion dance you refer to, cannot possibly involve real condors, and what you are doing is based on something you believe. This does not sound real to me.  I mean, I am friends with my cat, and my cat is real,  but if i start being possesed by a cat spirit and dancing that... mmm .... well my cat might be real, but that doesn't mean the rest of it is...

I don't think you are a plastic or a fraud or that you have shcizoprenia ~ I just think you are probably confused. Something I have been myself many times in my life.

Just my opinion.   Heck what do I know. LOL

« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 11:24:39 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Greenwood

  • Posts: 24
Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2007, 10:43:11 am »
Hello!

I am far from being confused. I am doing possession-trance since 1994 or so, after I had my initiations in the line of magic which is actually practicing this. If I would be confused then no one ever would have felt anything, seen anything or learnt anything from the dances I conduct since 1998. Since 2006 I am dancing in public, before that only in secret and not public. If I would be confused in any instance my fratres and sorores would eagerly take immediate actions in grounding and earthening me. No - I am not openly telling here about details of them. The dance which is being taped in the link of Barnaby was not the best one, I have to admit. There were many problems you cannot see on the Vid which prevented a prolonged trance-state and I flickered sometimes.

Since 1991 I was never felt ill, had no diseases, accidents or other things which had sprung into my path. Everything regarding the Condor (its Spirit) which is part of my life goes on smoothely, easily and quick with beauty. People knowing me personally or in my dances actually experience that. Comparing my life with others I consider myself a lucky one and am totally aware of this. But I had to die in 1989 for that. I am "twiceborn", died in 1989 in Rome on the Main Railwaystation. The medics brought me back but I was never the same after that: I was stone-dead and remember everything. Condor called me back then in this situation. The dance does not invoke a certain once-living Condor but the Power (or Spirit) of the Condor itself. As I have written I do not know anyone else who does this, worldwide. I would be glad to know that there ARE some in S-America or elsewhere - still waiting since 1998.

I also have pointed out that I do not publicly in the Internet share everything I do. In fact it is only a little window I opened - one which is illuminating only a little part of what I am and what I do.

What I do is considered "not real" in many worlds - but in as many other worlds it is considered "real" and "fact". I am aware of that and can life with that because people considering that what I do as "not real" are right in their own world thinking this. I am not blaming them for this except when they have the illusion of thinking that I have to share their opinion in order to be "correct" in their world. I do not fit in there.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

P.S.: Thanks for editing, yesterday I had much other things to do and simply lost my patience. Not everything was an insult you deleted but the core remained. I am an post-posting-editor as you can see.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 12:23:19 pm by Greenwood »
Dwn-'nwj - "He who unfolds two wings": Himmiherrgotzaggramentzefixallelujamilextamarschscheissglumpfaregtz!

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2007, 08:40:43 pm »
When you claim your personal beliefs have some connection with indigenous traditions and prophesies, your peculiar personal beliefs benifit from being associated with beliefs that are much more respected and credible. 

This connection is mainly what doesn't seem real to me.

I think you also missed what Barnaby was saying , which is that when people mix their own rather bizarre personal beliefs with what they claim are indigenous traditions, this might lend an air of respectability to beliefs most people would find incredible , but this false claim of association also has a tendency to damage the credibility of Native traditions. Many indigenous people feel this is a form of exploitation .