NAFPS Forum
General => Frauds => Topic started by: educatedindian on June 14, 2005, 02:08:28 pm
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A woman in the audience in Eskilstuna brought this up. And another person called out " We want a list! Now!" It got a big laugh, and made a would-be "chief" in the audience pretty nervous. Then again, so did my whole speech...
The only name of an imposter in the music business I could give them was Douglas Spotted Eagle. I know there's some others, people have been complaining about the faked winning NAMMY awards for years. Who else have others heard about as phonies?
Almost forgot-WTF! Willliam Two Feathers.
And Debbie's link in news and announcements points out Yeagley has a music CD out, but he's not NDN. His adopted mother was.
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I am of the opinion that anybody with a modicum of musical talent, if they had a bent to, can buy a CD of native music, study the melodies, and the beat, then buy native type garb and bead themselves up and display themselves in all their glory on a stage and tell anything they can dream up to a crowd. People who do this kind of thing have no conscience, so why should they concern themselves with being "exposed", when they long ago ran off with the money.
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educatedindian said
Who else have others heard about as phonies?
John Two Hawks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL5VjT002DM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL5VjT002DM)
I've been in contact with some pretty reliable sources that tell me this man is NOT known to be Lakota. No one knows him as a Lakota, nor has anyone ever heard of his family in Lakota communites in North Dakota, South Dakota, etc. He's been known to show up every now and then in some of the Lakota communities out there but thats about it. The fraud is traveling around Europe presenting himself as "Lakota" and is misappropriating the Lakota name. In that video I posted, he performed in Finland in front of 12,000 people and has done numerous public interviews speaking as an authority on Lakota culture and history. This man is a fraud presenting himself as something he is not.
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I must confess that I am ignorant about Douglas Spotted Eagle. I've heard his music but had no idea he was misrepresenting himself until a few years ago when I heard some rumors that he was but no one told me how he was doing this or could offer anything that showed he was a fraud. So, please educate me about DSE.
Wado
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Here's a paragraph from Douglas spotted eagle,s website. It's from a 2001 statement where he is defending himself for winning a grammy in the American Indian catagory and for winning two Nammys. He admits he has no Native blood. My bold.
http://www.spottedeagle.com/gramstat.htm
Lastly, it was brought up by Herman Begay that Indian America is less-than-satisfied with my adoption by Lakota family 26 years ago and marriage into a Dine’ family as being or not being valid enough to have received a Grammy™ in the Native American category. To cut to the core of this point, the Grammy™’s are colorblind. It’s a music industry award, not a race award, not a color, religion, sexual preference, or cultural award. For years, people of various cultures have received Grammy™’s for their work on projects related to music divergent from their own culture. The producers of ALL Grammy™ nominated recordings in 2000 are non-Native, so at some level, this issue would be raised. For what it’s worth, I was dancing at powwow before the age of 13. My family and I are proud that Tom and I were the recipients of the first-ever Native American Category Grammy™. I make no apology to anyone who is not satisfied with the voting of the 12,000 members of NARAS. I make no apology for the fact that while I was raised Native, I'm not of Native blood. If my person, skin color, or appearance don't meet with someone's prejudices, I offer no apology. Readers also should clearly understand that at some very near point, it's likely a non-Native will win the Grammy™ in this category as a solo artist. It's ironic that if there had never been a Grammy™ Award, none of this would have ever been an issue. Be grateful everyone, for this terrific opportunity.
Lim lemtsh
Diana
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Hm . . .
What he posted about how the award is given to the producers if no one artist on a release has at least 51% of the credit is correct. That is how the industry does things. He is also correct about the requirements, or lack thereof, to record, produce and submit music in any genre. For example, one does not have to have black ancestry to be in the Soul genre. The same is true for any of the indigenous or World genre music. If a native artist wanted to record and produce a Reggae release there would be nothing to prevent his/her doing so or prevent the artist from being nominated for or receiving an award in that genre. Those are the industry standards.
This is why I've advised some young native artists to look hard at the industry standards and the contractual obligations that even touring as a front group entails. Some of the things that are SOP in the industry do not quite complement some traditions.
I don't know DSE. Never met him either but those who I know in the industry who have worked with him have always said he never claims to be native by blood. Thus, I still don't see where he is misrepresenting himself.
You see, when I saw this topic I thought he may have switched his format and was claiming he was native or was getting involved with endorsing some sort of wannbe ceremonial group or something like that. Unless I've missed something, I don't see where he is making the claims that earmark a fraud.
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Douglas Wallentine (Douglas Spotted Eagle) has only been honest about having no blood in the last few years since his claim of "Lakota" was disproved. When I first met him, he claimed Lakota but said his BQ was too low to enroll. If you have ever seen him perform, he blatantly tries to give the impression that he is NDN to his audiences. Now, he claims "adopted" and "raised" as Lakota. Believe me, he was raised white and Mormon. Many real Indians have worked with him over the years and he sucks credibility off them. Some are still his friends and supporters. Many are not.
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I agree with Waya; if Douglas Spotted Eagle doesn't claim to be Native, why is he being called a fraud? Anyone, any race and/or ethnicity, can sing any type of music. These awards aren't given for the race/ethnicity of the performer, but for the type of music.
Was he adopted by a Lakota family twenty-six years ago? Was he dancing at powwows when he was thirteen? Is he married to a Dine woman? Seems like he's accepted by many Native people.
Switching "subjects" . . . John Two-Hawks . . . Does anyone know for a fact that he is not Lakota? Before we label him a fraud, I think more investigation is needed. I know there's a thread on Two-Hawks in Research Needed, but now he's been called a fraud on this thread. It seems that Two-Hawks has been doing what he does for quite a few years and has been accepted by many. He performed some of the music in HBO's Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. There's pictures of Two-Hawks with Adam Beach on his website, as well as pictures with Lakota and Mvskoke. This doesn't necessarily prove he's Native, but it's something to think about. Yes, he conducts seminars and has written some questionable books, but that doesn't make him a fraud either. I know of enrolled Lakota who aren't above selling a ceremony or two from time to time. It isn't right, but it doesn't make them frauds. I think we should know, without a doubt, that someone is lying about who and what they are before we call them a fraud.
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If he made that claim to you then that does put a different light on it, Tawodi. I never knew that he had ever claimed to be native; only that he was raised in a native community. As we have discussed here in other topics, being adopted by a native family does not mean one is a member of that tribe.
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If people want to present their music as Native inspired, then that’s all well and good. But by people identifying as Native American Musicians, when from what’s know, they probably aren’t, this is nothing more then CULTURAL THEFT and they are STEALING one of the only things that Native people have left that they can claim. These people and people like them can win all the Nammys they want and identify as Indians all they want, but that’s NEVER going to make them Indian. INDIAN BLOOD makes you Indian, not Nammy awards, not dressing up in buckskin, and not learning to speak Native languages.
bls926 said
It seems that Two-Hawks has been doing what he does for quite a few years and has been accepted by many. He performed some of the music in HBO's Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. There's pictures of Two-Hawks with Adam Beach on his website, as well as pictures with Lakota and Mvskoke. This doesn't necessarily prove he's Native, but it's something to think about.
For me its not really something to think about. All thats never going to make them Indian. Just because he's accepted, is a talented musician, and has taken pictures with Indians doesn't really mean much as far as being Indian goes.
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My 2cents. As an avid music lover. Yes, I've heard DSE and I even have 1 maybe 2 of his cd's.. packed in a box somewhere or I'd dig them out and look them over.. maybe I will anyway, just take me a day or two to go through the boxes..
Anyway, thing is, is if I had looked at the cd in the store, and saw it was some white guy playing Native flute, I would not have bought it. So, he had to have had *something* in there to make me think I was buying Native flute player music.
I'm a little picky about my music, not saying a white person couldn't or wouldn't be able to play Native 'style' flute, because I do believe 'music' has a certain 'calling'.. but, I wouldn't buy without hearing it first, as I would be more inclined to buy without hearing if I believed the player was Native. However, having said that.. I do like the cd I have, and am glad I purchased it.
However, I would not have without hearing it first if I'd known he was not Native. Because, I believe 'music' is in some ways, like 'spirits' and in this context, in what I'd read earlier on the board, of 'spirits' 'belonging' to one or another culture, the spirit of the music does as well. Doesn't mean I don't believe they (music and spirits) cannot be with some other, .. I mean, who am I to say what a music or spirit is going to choose to do? But, I would not buy Native flute music played by a white guy unless I'd heard it first.
I'm picky about my music. I think most of the radio music these days is void of anything but a lot of noise. To me, music, real music, comes through when no one is looking, or acting the part, it is a humble player who plays for the music, and not for the audience.
So, if you look at in the regard that I purchased because I believed he was Native, then it was fraud. But I'll have to dig out the cd (it's an old one) and take another look. Maybe I missed something on it..
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I think the Nammys ( Native American Music Awards ) uses the Self Identification Criteria. So basically anyone can learn to play a Native American flute, get good enough at it and win a Native American Music Award.. Considering the fact that virtually every white person in the South Eastern United States claims to be part Cherokee, than we're talking about A LOT of people that would qualify under the self identification criteria. . I think if people want to identify as a Native American Musician, then it should be based on some reasonable evidence. Not necessarily that you have to be enrolled with a Federally Recognized Tribe, but at least that one can REASONABLY say that your Indian. I think in a sense, all of these questionable claims have really tarnished the industry.
Critter said
Anyway, thing is, is if I had looked at the cd in the store, and saw it was some white guy playing Native flute, I would not have bought it. So, he had to have had *something* in there to make me think I was buying Native flute player music.
I think Critter has a very good point and I don't think that she is the only one that thinks this way either. When someone walks into a Music Store or somewhere else, and they want to buy Native American Music, then I would assume that they want music that is actually performed by a Native American Musician. Its just like if I wanted to purchase authentic Tibetan Music, I would want that music to be performed by actual Tibetan people. Even though others could probably replicate Tibetan Music fairly accurately, it would never be the same thing as listening to the “Real Thing”. The other part of it, is that I know cases of Real Indians, who come from Traditional Comminutes who are being cut out of the market by these questionable “Native American Musicians”.
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I looked up the membership application and nomination submission form on the nammy website and there is nothing specific about nominee's being Indian. But on the entry forms, page 3, it does ask for Tribal Affiliation and a Tribal Community Reference. I also noticed on page 6 under catagory guidelines at the bottom it has this: NATIVE HEART For an artist of non-native heritage who has contributed to an eligible recording.
It seems a little confusing, hmmm.
http://www.nativeamericanmusicawards.com/howtonominate.cfm
http://content.bandzoogle.com/users/wwwnativeamericanmusicawardsco/files/NAMA11-Submission-membership-forms.pdf
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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Well, as far as 'nammys' and 'grammys'.. that's the music industry.. and I think they have a different look at it in terms of sales, more or less. Some very talented people will never see an award, because they aren't on the music charts. I personally have a itch about the entire music industry and how they exploit music to the point that half the stuff 'available' to people is canned and modeled and many times it's just replication of what sold before.. once in a great while a real music will surface in the industry and make the charts.. but not often enough for my tastes.
So, it is not surprising to me that anyone who can 'sell' their music can get an award. It doesn't matter if the person playing is white, native, black, or whatever.. what matters is that the 'consensus' among the industry and industry followers agree that it's the best and gets the award.
I've heard crap music get such awards and I can't believe it. Therefore, I never watch the grammys, nammys or any such shows anymore. Not when I've heard music that blows them out of the water.. but is never played on the 'charts' because well, you have to pay people to play your music on the radio, and if they play it a lot, then the general public thinks it must be a good song because it's played 30 times a day.. ho hum.. Sorry, my rant.. just don't like the industry. And I don't put much credit on what they 'sell' with their awards..
edit: I should add that I throw the 'nammys' in here with the 'grammy' type shows because I'm so turned off from these types of shows.. however, I can't say I ever saw the 'nammys' so maybe it is a different setup and not about the dollar and mass public brainwashing...
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BlackWolf, I'm not saying that hanging out with Indians, dressing like an Indian, getting your picture taken with Indians, will make you Indian. The point I was trying to make is that we don't know that John Two-Hawks isn't Lakota and obviously there are many who do accept him. Before we label someone a liar and a fraud, we need facts. So far, we have none.
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He says in his bio that he was adopted by a Lakota Family making the claim that because of the adoption he has the all the rights of the Lakota. NOT
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He says in his bio that he was adopted by a Lakota Family amking the claim that because of the adoption he has the all the rights of the Lakota. NOT
Where did you find that Earth??
I'm not disputing it...just looking for it. Everything in his media center on his website has him saying he's Oglala Lakota.
http://www.johntwohawks.com/theJTHpromopage.html
"John Two-Hawks is a gentle, humble man who credits his late mother and father - who were Lakota and Potawatomi - for teaching him that the most important life lesson is to be kind. John has taken these lessons and more from his family elders and others and applied them to his life, believing always, in the power of peace, hope and love."
"Some have said that John Two-Hawks is a 'human anthology' of accurate information about the culture, traditions and history of American Indian people. Of the Oglala Lakota Sioux nation himself, John has spent his life learning from the elders and teachers of many nations."
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I have no idea how true it all is....but that's what he says on his own site.
However, true or not...I do have a problem with him selling "medicine retreat" workshops. Watched the video with Nightwish as well....he doesn't sing Lakota music like any Lakota people I've ever met....his voice is trained wrong for it. Sounds like a non-Indian....just my impression.
Never heard of him before this though and even though I mentioned the Grammy nomination earlier as being true...the board has already gone over how the music industry defines Native American music as just anything that can be sold with that label on it, regardless of it's origins, so the nomination really doesn't say much.
In short, he seems to know how to put on a good show...but he bugs me.
Superdog
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BlackWolf, I'm not saying that hanging out with Indians, dressing like an Indian, getting your picture taken with Indians, will make you Indian. The point I was trying to make is that we don't know that John Two-Hawks isn't Lakota and obviously there are many who do accept him. Before we label someone a liar and a fraud, we need facts. So far, we have none.
I never specifically said he's a liar bls926. If you read my post, you'll see that I still leave open the possiblity that he is "Lakota". But from what I've found out so far, he's not of Lakota heritage. If you read all of his interviews very carefully, you'll realize that he is very elusive about his heritage. As I said before, besides my own investigation, I've asked actual Lakota people from North and South Dakota about him. I think if anyone would know about this, then it would be actual Lakota people from Lakota communities. If it turns out that he is of Lakota heritage, then it would be his right to call himself Lakota. But as of yet, I beleive him not to be of Lakota heritage. If someone has A SHRED of evidence that he is of Lakota heritage, please post it here so we can clear this up in regards to his heritage. If it later comes out that he is of Lakota heritage, then I'll retract the statment that I think he's a fake Native musician. However, I'd still consider him an exploiter for what he's doing with his Mending Medicine Retreat, public Lakota ceremonies, and questionable books he has written.
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Here's another in the list of things that bug me about him....he's giving Indian names to people overseas.
From the same interview as quoted by BLS.....
http://www.beyondearcandy.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=119&Itemid=120
"So I went home and started playing this kantele and I actually put it on my Wild Eagles DVD and I put it on this song that I actually composed for Ewo and his fiancé, Olga, because of that experience that I had on those islands that night. It was magic. I named the song Mystic Island. It’s with the kantele and the flutes. It’s just a beautiful song.
Then I wrote another song on disk two for my dear friend, Tuomas. It’s a special song and it’s named for him. It’s called Shadow Wolf. He knows what that’s about. (smiles)
AMBR: That’s the Indian name you gave him?
JTH: Yea, I don’t want to take too much credit for it because it’s a spiritual thing. That’s his name. It’s what we call a spirit name. It’s powerful."
Ohhhhh brother.
Superdog
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Yeah I read that about the name giving he says his wife gave the name. And that they've never done it before.. doesn't say if they are doing it since..
http://www.beyondearcandy.com/nwfeature2hawks.htm
During the taping of “Creek Mary’s Blood”, Two-Hawks developed a special bond with the Finnish keyboardist. “He and I are musical soul mates,” the Indian declared. This sense of connection the two musicians felt was so strong, Two-Hawks felt compelled to bestow on Tuomas an Indian name. Though he did not come up with the name, Two Hawks felt the honor was appropriate. “I can’t take credit for the name coming, because the name really came from my wife (Peggy),” he admitted. “My wife had dreams when she was in Finland and they were all about Tuomas and they all had to do with certain things. So a name came to her.”
“I’ve gotta be honest with you, this is something that happened this one time only,” he continued. “We’ve never done an naming ceremony ever. So we did a small private ceremony with Tuomas and that’s how he received the name. As he’s probably said or implied, it is sort of personal and private.”
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The only Two Hawk I can find in Lakota country come from the Lower brule Reservation none on Pine Ridge rez
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Well I emailed as to info about Two Hawks and what all wa offered in the retreats, here is the response:
John sent you a message.
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Re: Medicine Retreats
,
We appreciate your interest in the Mending Medicine Retreat. A deeper connection is what the retreat is all about. It is about finding balance and meaning in your life, and a deeper spiritual connection. John practices his Lakota spirituality privately, so inipi and canupa teachings are not a part of the retreat. We hope this does not disappoint you. We assure you the weekend is a very special time to connect with good people and reconnect with your life vision. You can read more about the Mending Medicine Retreat, and all our other retreats at: http://www.facebook.com/l/e3ae1;www.johntwohawks.com
Thanks again for writing! All the best to you and yours.
The JTH Web Team
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No disclosure as to anything about him at all, I di ask who his teachers, Elders were. Nothing.
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There are laws that make it so you must be a member of a federally or state recognized tribe to sell artwork labeled as Native American.
So maybe it should be made to be illegal to claim to be doing authentic native music if you are not recognized.
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He says in his bio that he was adopted by a Lakota Family amking the claim that because of the adoption he has the all the rights of the Lakota. NOT
Where did you find that Earth??
I'm not disputing it...just looking for it. Everything in his media center on his website has him saying he's Oglala Lakota.
Superdog, earth was talking about Douglas Spotted Eagle. In his bio, he says he was adopted by a Lakota family.
Here's another in the list of things that bug me about him....he's giving Indian names to people overseas.
From the same interview as quoted by BLS.....
http://www.beyondearcandy.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=119&Itemid=120
I didn't quote from any of Two-Hawks' interviews. I've read some of them, but haven't commented on any of them.
I don't want anyone to think I'm defending this guy or taking up for him in any way. The point I've been trying to make is that we don't know if he's Lakota or not. Can't really call him a fraud until we have facts. We need to do more research. I agree with everyone that the retreats, the questionable books, and some of the rest of it screams exploitation. But, like I said before, I've known enrolled Lakota to sell a ceremony or two. It isn't right, but it doesn't make them frauds.
Hearing what earth has to say about this is good. Thank you, LaDonna. Was hoping we'd hear from you or Cetan.
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There are laws that make it so you must be a member of a federally or state recognized tribe to sell artwork labeled as Native American.
So maybe it should be made to be illegal to claim to be doing authentic native music if you are not recognized.
I agree with you completely, Rattle. Unfortunately, neither music nor the written word is covered by the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990. So, anyone can sing what they want, write what they want, and call themself whatever they want. Yes, the law should be changed.
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There are laws that make it so you must be a member of a federally or state recognized tribe to sell artwork labeled as Native American.
So maybe it should be made to be illegal to claim to be doing authentic native music if you are not recognized.
I agree with you completely, Rattle. Unfortunately, neither music nor the written word is covered by the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990. So, anyone can sing what they want, write what they want, and call themself whatever they want. Yes, the law should be changed.
I did have my reservations about making that post though. Some of the same parties involved that made that Arts and Craft laws of 1990 are trying to make it to where a person can not publish anything as an Indian person unless federally recognized, which will definitely encroach on constitutional rights of free speech and expression.
Sure there was the issue with that one white man who was writing as a Navajo and raking in millions, however though much much fewer then those who claim to be NDN without proof; there are indeed NDN people whom have fell through the cracks of the enrollment process.
If such a law was passed, it may bar them from ever writing their life or family experience as the NDN people they are. Some of those who fall under the category of so called "self identified," are only so because of these issues. In such cases the Arts and Crafts law will effect them to, but I cringe at the thought of such a law being passed that bars them from putting things in writing as well.
Frauds are going to pop up regardless, and they should be exposed instead of taking the course of making so many laws in regards to these things that it gets destructive and oppressive.
Of course this topic is music so I don't want to get off track, but sometimes I almost feel like the solution to some things are just as bad as the problem themselves.
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He says in his bio that he was adopted by a Lakota Family amking the claim that because of the adoption he has the all the rights of the Lakota. NOT
Where did you find that Earth??
I'm not disputing it...just looking for it. Everything in his media center on his website has him saying he's Oglala Lakota.
Superdog, earth was talking about Douglas Spotted Eagle. In his bio, he says he was adopted by a Lakota family.
Here's another in the list of things that bug me about him....he's giving Indian names to people overseas.
From the same interview as quoted by BLS.....
http://www.beyondearcandy.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=119&Itemid=120
I didn't quote from any of Two-Hawks' interviews. I've read some of them, but haven't commented on any of them.
I don't want anyone to think I'm defending this guy or taking up for him in any way. The point I've been trying to make is that we don't know if he's Lakota or not. Can't really call him a fraud until we have facts. We need to do more research. I agree with everyone that the retreats, the questionable books, and some of the rest of it screams exploitation. But, like I said before, I've known enrolled Lakota to sell a ceremony or two. It isn't right, but it doesn't make them frauds.
Hearing what earth has to say about this is good. Thank you, LaDonna. Was hoping we'd hear from you or Cetan.
Sorry for the mixup. My apologies.
Thanks for clearing it up :)
Superdog
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No problem, Superdog. It got confusing, since we were talking about two who claim a connection to the Lakota.
As for the Indian Arts and Crafts Act . . . Freedom of expression, freedom of speech? Rattle, what's the difference between a carving and a novel? Both are expressions. Why should a pretendian be allowed to write a story but not be allowed to make a piece of jewelry? The Act should apply to all expressions of art. If you aren't Indian, don't market your creations as Native American.
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Superdog, here's an article that John Two Hawks wrote about the Hunkapi or making of Relatives Ceremony. Although he does imply elsewhere that he is Oglala Lakota by blood, its interesting what he says here. So I'm wondering now about this and if besides his alledged blood conncection to being Lakota, if he is also claiming to be Lakota because he participated in this? I think these types of ceremonies were discussed in other threads and it goes over what they are and aren't.
http://www.nativecircle.com/pppartindian.html (http://www.nativecircle.com/pppartindian.html)
In Lakota tradition, we have a ceremony called Hunkapi, or,
the Making of Relatives. In this ceremony, a person who is
not Lakota is brought in. After the ceremony is complete it
was fully understood that this person was 100% completely
Lakota. This was, and still is, the power of this ancient rite.
Somehow, many of us have forgotten the truth and wisdom
of this ceremony. Many Indians today think the 'amount' of
Indian blood is what matters, when according to our own
sacred rites, it is clear that it is not only blood, but Spirit
which defines the essence of a human being.................
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Rattle. Unfortunately, neither music nor the written word is covered by the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990. So, anyone can sing what they want, write what they want, and call themself whatever they want. Yes, the law should be changed.
Though you might call yourself a descendant, the bottom line is you are Cherokee because you are Cherokee by blood.
I don't know what impact your ancestry might have had on your life, but being that you are present here it would seem it must have by some degree or another.
However they might be people, and that may or may not include you that have had the Indian ancestry be a huge part of their life, and from that dictate what experiences and points of view they have.
So if they do not have federal recognition, I do not think they should be barred from writing about their lives or experiences etc due to lack of recognition.
If they are frauds, then they can be exposed by places like this and the community.
Last I checked this is still the United States, and though it is far from perfect; I would hate to see it go down the path of over regulating people to the point to where they are not allowed to speak the truth about their lives or family due to issues that ultimately are the fault of the United States government in the first place.
We should not get so caught up in hunting down frauds or preventing them from operation to the point we lose sight that the purpose is to defend NDN people, and sometimes there are those who for whatever did fail to get recognized, but should not be confused with those who claim some ggggg grandmother they can not prove.
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Rattle. Unfortunately, neither music nor the written word is covered by the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990. So, anyone can sing what they want, write what they want, and call themself whatever they want. Yes, the law should be changed.
Though you might call yourself a descendant, the bottom line is you are Cherokee because you are Cherokee by blood.
I don't know what impact your ancestry might have had on your life, but being that you are present here it would seem it must have by some degree or another.
However they might be people, and that may or may not include you that have had the Indian ancestry be a huge part of their life, and from that dictate what experiences and points of view they have.
So if they do not have federal recognition, I do not think they should be barred from writing about their lives or experiences etc due to lack of recognition.
If they are frauds, then they can be exposed by places like this and the community.
Last I checked this is still the United States, and though it is far from perfect; I would hate to see it go down the path of over regulating people to the point to where they are not allowed to speak the truth about their lives or family due to issues that ultimately are the fault of the United States government in the first place.
We should not get so caught up in hunting down frauds or preventing them from operation to the point we lose sight that the purpose is to defend NDN people, and sometimes there are those who for whatever did fail to get recognized, but should not be confused with those who claim some ggggg grandmother they can not prove.
I'm not saying someone can't write about their life. Anyone can write anything they want. What I am saying is that someone who is not an enrolled member of a recognized First Nation should not claim that they are a Native American author. It's no different than someone who is not recognized creating a piece of jewelry, weaving a basket, or making a piece of pottery and calling it American Indian. No different than these guys we've been talking about putting Lakota on their music. If you aren't Indian, don't market your creations as Native American.
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Rattle. Unfortunately, neither music nor the written word is covered by the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990. So, anyone can sing what they want, write what they want, and call themself whatever they want. Yes, the law should be changed.
Though you might call yourself a descendant, the bottom line is you are Cherokee because you are Cherokee by blood.
I don't know what impact your ancestry might have had on your life, but being that you are present here it would seem it must have by some degree or another.
However they might be people, and that may or may not include you that have had the Indian ancestry be a huge part of their life, and from that dictate what experiences and points of view they have.
So if they do not have federal recognition, I do not think they should be barred from writing about their lives or experiences etc due to lack of recognition.
If they are frauds, then they can be exposed by places like this and the community.
Last I checked this is still the United States, and though it is far from perfect; I would hate to see it go down the path of over regulating people to the point to where they are not allowed to speak the truth about their lives or family due to issues that ultimately are the fault of the United States government in the first place.
We should not get so caught up in hunting down frauds or preventing them from operation to the point we lose sight that the purpose is to defend NDN people, and sometimes there are those who for whatever did fail to get recognized, but should not be confused with those who claim some ggggg grandmother they can not prove.
I'm not saying someone can't write about their life. Anyone can write anything they want. What I am saying is that someone who is not an enrolled member of a recognized First Nation should not claim that they are a Native American author. It's no different than someone who is not recognized creating a piece of jewelry, weaving a basket, or making a piece of pottery and calling it American Indian. No different than these guys we've been talking about putting Lakota on their music. If you aren't Indian, don't market your creations as Native American.
It's not the same thing though. Artwork that is labeled Native American that is not, hurts native artisans when it is sold as such. Even in that case you can make the exact same artwork and put the label "native style" on it and there is nothing anyone can do legally.
People who are legitimately NDN but for whatever reason do not have recognition are still NDN without the piece of paper that says so. They should not be barred from writing about their lives or perspectives on things as native people because that is exactly what they are regardless.
Making laws to curb fraudulent activity is fine, but with the thousands of laws we having in this country covering so many things; those things the laws are based on are still routinely broken. Con artists come up with new ways to break those laws on a routine basis.
Telling somebody who has legitimate claims to being NDN that they can not write as a native person because they lack some piece of paper even when their claims & experiences are legitimate is preposterous in a nation that guarantees people the right to freedom of speech and expression. It's almost as though we are going to guarantee NONS these constitutional rights, but deny them to people with legitimate claims to being NDN due to a lack of paper.
If a man like Two Hawks could prove he is NDN regardless of being enrolled or not, I would say nothing other then his music is twinkie and romanticized garbage.
I doubt when the law about Arts and Crafts were passed that it's purpose was to persecute people with legitimate claims to being NDN, but was more directed towards those who are not NDN who were selling bogus artwork labeled as NDN art.
Again issues such as this are why I had reservations making my intial post here. I somewhat support such laws because of the mockery of NDN culture men like Two Hawks make of it, but I do recognize that there are some great pitfalls to it.
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I think the Indian Arts and Crafts Act should cover all forms of expression. Rattle, you say it should only apply to "artwork", i.e. pottery, jewelry, baskets, paintings, because when nons create these things and call them Indian, it "hurts native artisans when it is sold as such". Don't you think the same can be said for music and the written word? Someone on here made the comment that they'd bought one of Douglas Spotted Eagle's cd's because they thought he was Lakota; they wouldn't have bought it if they'd known he wasn't. They would have purchased a different cd, one recorded by an American Indian. How many people purchased Nasdijj/Timothy Barrus' novels, because they thought he was Navajo? If they'd known he wasn't, maybe they would have bought one of Sherman Alexie's. Expression comes in many forms . . . the written word, music, artwork. All should be protected by the Indian Arts and Crafts Act.
There are exceptions to the law. If you are accepted by your Nation, whether enrolled or not, you are permitted to advertise your work as American Indian with their endorsement. Anyone who is truly connected to their people, should be able to get their blessing and market themselves as Native.
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Arts and crafts, well, what if I wanted to buy a cuban cigar, I'd want a 'cuban' cigar, not a cigar made in 'cuban style', and I'd be pissed if I bought a box of cuban cigars only to find out they weren't the real deal. That's how it is with pottery and baskets etc in my mind, including music.
But, writing. I can't see where the written word can be so defined. If a person's experience is well, whatever it is, they do have a right to write about it. I don't believe in censorship.
But I do believe that ceremony should be covered under the 'arts & craft' even though it isn't a craft per se. People running ceremony and claiming it is of any particular origin, be it Native, or Scandinavian, or Tibetan or whathaveyou, should be able to prove without doubt that it is. There needs to be a law in regards to that.
Actually, I found one: (my bold)
Section 13A-14-4
Fraudulently pretending to be clergyman.
Whoever, being in a public place, fraudulently pretends by garb or outward array to be a minister of any religion, or nun, priest, rabbi or other member of the clergy , is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $500.00 or confinement in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. (Acts 1965, 1st Ex. Sess., No. 273, p. 381; Code 1975, §13-4-99.)
Not sure this is a nationwide law or local per state. But, seems plenty of wannabes are breaking it.
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I'm not saying someone can't write about whatever they want. I definitely don't believe in censorship. What I am saying is that if you aren't a citizen of a First Nation, you shouldn't be able to market your writing as Native American. There isn't any difference between baskets, blankets, jewelry, or a novel. All are expressions of art. Truth in advertising. Anyone ever hear of that?
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If I see any sort of evidence that Two Hawks is of Lakota heritage, then I wouldn’t question his right to call himself a Native American Musician. Even if he’s not enrolled, then he should still be able to come up with some sort of proof. In one of his interviews he says that he has ancestors that went to Carlisle Indian School in Pennsylvania. If that’s the case, then it would be as easy as naming those Indian ancestors. Or maybe he has a parent or grandparent who was from Pine Ridge. And maybe he can’t enroll because he doesn’t have the minuim BQ, or maybe he’s family didn’t enroll, etc. But even in these cases, he should still be able to produce some names and places that his alleged Lakota people lived. I’ve looked and I can’t find one shred of evidence that would verify he’s claims of being Lakota. It’s normal for famous Musicians and Artist to share information about their Biography. And in his case, it’s especially important, because he’s an alleged Lakota/Native American performer. If people aren’t questioned, then where do you draw the line? Anyone can say their Lakota or Cherokee, and promote themselves as such. It would be like me traveling around the country promoting myself as a Tibetan Musician and Spiritual leader without a shred of evidence that I’m really of Tibetan heritage. At some point in time reporters, the media, or organizations I work with would question me as to my heritage. Was I actually from Tibet?, was my family from Tibet?, what where their names, what city in Tibet did I live in, etc? So why is it OK to travel around the United States and Europe presenting yourself as Lakota and not be questioned about your heritage?
One of the reporters that interviewed him said that he’s a very private man. I respect people’s privacy to a certain extent, but he is presenting himself as Lakota in a number of ways. When he’s in Europe doing his programs, he’s a sort of ambassador for the Lakota people. And with that comes responsibilities. So if he’s presenting himself as Lakota to promote himself as an Artist and Spiritual leader, then it’s his responsibility to back up his claims. Like Critter said, his Lakota heritage is part of his marketing ploy. I think after Cherokee, Lakota probably comes in a close second or third of people claiming to be from their tribe when they most likely are not. So in this case I think that the burden is on Two Hawks to show everyone that he is really Lakota.
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I'm not saying someone can't write about whatever they want. I definitely don't believe in censorship. What I am saying is that if you aren't a citizen of a First Nation, you shouldn't be able to market your writing as Native American. There isn't any difference between baskets, blankets, jewelry, or a novel. All are expressions of art. Truth in advertising. Anyone ever hear of that?
I understand what you are saying. But I'm talking about "personal" experience of life. Not the grand marketing of Native Spirituality or Ceremony.
What if a person is Native, but not enrolled for one reason or another, but is actually Native, and s/he decides to write a book on what it is to be Native from that position. It is a personal account, a personal story. And they are proud of their being Native and sign off on it as a Native, because they are.. although not enrolled. Who is going to go and tell them they can't write it because 'legally' they are not "Native"?
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At some point in time reporters, the media, or organizations I work with would question me as to my heritage. Was I actually from Tibet?, was my family from Tibet?, what where their names, what city in Tibet did I live in, etc? So why is it OK to travel around the United States and Europe presenting yourself as Lakota and not be questioned about your heritage?
I agree. But I bet if you looked even remotely Tibetan, and spoke what seemed to be the language, and wore clothing that general public views as 'tibetan'.. they would never ask.
It isn't OK, though, on any level and with any nationality to go around like this. Making it the center point of one's art and all other doings, the 'magnate' that draws the customers.
And I'm just honestly upset about the exploitation, unless someone can say he is actually doing something to help in the crisis of the people he claims to come from, I cannot think of him in a good way.
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I'm not saying someone can't write about whatever they want. I definitely don't believe in censorship. What I am saying is that if you aren't a citizen of a First Nation, you shouldn't be able to market your writing as Native American. There isn't any difference between baskets, blankets, jewelry, or a novel. All are expressions of art. Truth in advertising. Anyone ever hear of that?
I understand what you are saying. But I'm talking about "personal" experience of life. Not the grand marketing of Native Spirituality or Ceremony.
What if a person is Native, but not enrolled for one reason or another, but is actually Native, and s/he decides to write a book on what it is to be Native from that position. It is a personal account, a personal story. And they are proud of their being Native and sign off on it as a Native, because they are.. although not enrolled. Who is going to go and tell them they can't write it because 'legally' they are not "Native"?
Well, if the Indian Arts and Crafts Act is modified, hopefully the federal government will. It's time music and the written word were added to arts and crafts.
Y'all are missing the point. Rattle, because he thinks one drop of Indian blood makes you Indian. You, critter, maybe because you're new to all this. If you are not enrolled and have no connection to your people, you have no business trying to speak for Indians or as an Indian. Write whatever the hell you want, just don't call yourself Native American. Sing whatever the hell you want, just don't promote yourself as an American Indian.
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I'm not saying someone can't write about whatever they want. I definitely don't believe in censorship. What I am saying is that if you aren't a citizen of a First Nation, you shouldn't be able to market your writing as Native American. There isn't any difference between baskets, blankets, jewelry, or a novel. All are expressions of art. Truth in advertising. Anyone ever hear of that?
I understand what you are saying. But I'm talking about "personal" experience of life. Not the grand marketing of Native Spirituality or Ceremony.
What if a person is Native, but not enrolled for one reason or another, but is actually Native, and s/he decides to write a book on what it is to be Native from that position. It is a personal account, a personal story. And they are proud of their being Native and sign off on it as a Native, because they are.. although not enrolled. Who is going to go and tell them they can't write it because 'legally' they are not "Native"?
Well, if the Indian Arts and Crafts Act is modified, hopefully the federal government will. It's time music and the written word were added to arts and crafts.
Y'all are missing the point. Rattle, because he thinks one drop of Indian blood makes you Indian. You, critter, maybe because you're new to all this. If you are not enrolled and have no connection to your people, you have no business trying to speak for Indians or as an Indian. Write whatever the hell you want, just don't call yourself Native American. Sing whatever the hell you want, just don't promote yourself as an American Indian.
While I can agree that the individual cannot speak 'for' Indians, I cannot wholly agree that they cannot speak of their own personal experience of being an unenrolled Indian and what that is for them, whether they have personal connections or not. A personal story cannot really be censored in this way.
Promoting the selling of ceremony or ritual or spirituality of 'any' religion to me is wrong.. but promoting your own personal story of your own life's trials and tribulations without any ritualistic or spirituality except your own view point within it, is to me entirely different. Because you're not selling a peoples' spirituality, your only selling your own story. Of course, the right way is to be responsible and know what not to put in the book, what crosses the line.
Anyway, I just don't think the gov (any gov) should be telling people they cannot write of their own life from their own perspective of how they view their life.
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One more time . . . and I swear this is the last time I'm going to try to make y'all understand . . . Write about whatever you want, just don't call yourself a Native American author if you are not recognized by the Nation you claim to be from. It has nothing to do with spirituality or ceremony. It has everything to do with misappropriating an identity. There are Native authors and musicians who work very hard at their craft. They should be given the same respect that Native potters and weavers are given.
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I understand what you are saying. And have from the beginning. But I'm not sure you understand what I am saying. I'm talking about a person's right to write about their experience. You can't trademark a person's life experience. It's not the same as baskets or a way/style of music or jewelry crafting.
Unfortunately, there will be frauds and such, as there are. But you can't censor someone because they're delusional. And you can't censor someone because they are not legally enrolled. They have the right to write about their life. I don't believe they have the right to teach what is not authorized to them appropriately to teach. But just writing a novel, or a life's journey cannot be censored. And you can't really force someone to not believe they are not NA, even if they are not.
I understand that a novel claimed to be written by a Native American when they are not 'legally' Native is misrepresenting in the way you are saying. What is the gov going to do? Take them to psyche doctors in courts of law to make them change? When the people reading the novel aren't reading it because of the author's nationality? But because they like the story? It's not the same as pottery where a person shops exclusively for Native American artwork or crafts. A particular pottery is made in a particular way or a jewelry or a music, or a basket, made in the ways of that culture. But a novel?
I understand people looking exclusively for Native Spirituality, and selling Spirituality by using Native nationality is a whole different issue, but that I believe falls under the law regarding frauds. And should be busted. But a novelist who notes their self as Native or Australian or German because they believe they have some ancestry is not, to me, in the same category. But that's probably because when I go looking for something to read, I choose based on what the story is about, not by what nationality the author is.
So, some person who believes they're NA who writes a sci fi novel that has nothing even remotely connected to NA's, and doesn't market as a "NA author" it's just in his bio bit.. how can anyone censor that? Or, someone who writes a life story of how they are NA but not recognized legally, how can that be censored? They have the right to write. Unless they're writing of something traditional, that is handed down such as is the case with the spirituality, that then is the same as pottery, baskets, arts and crafts because it's a cultural item.
There are millions of authors and musicians working very hard at their craft and not being given the respect. If the music is Native culturally, then I agree, it belongs with pottery and etc.. but not writing. As I stated above, unless there is some cultural way of writing.
You want to go after them for them saying somewhere on or in the book that they are NA? What if they believe they are and are not doing anything but writing their own novels or own life stories, it's not encroaching on any culture or traditional 'way'... unless like pottery and baskets your traditions have a specific way of writing that a person would seek exclusively to read? A way of writing that is handed down and taught culturally?
Again, I'm not speaking of the marketing ploy of using nationality/spirituality to sell.. I'm speaking of a person's right to write their own story from their own perspective and point of view. No one can trademark that. You can't censor people from expressing their own lives in writing just because they believe they are NA or German or whatever. You can try to put some sort of action on a person who is exploiting others, and possibly even take them to court and win, but you'd not get far with that action if all they were doing was saying they were NA in their author bio.
And I understand its offensive to see someone saying they are of your nation when they are not. My writing all this is only to point out why 'author' imho can't really be put into the same context of arts & crafts. If anything the arts & crafts law needs to encompass spirituality and ceremony/ritual.
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As I understand the IACA, and somebody please correct me if I am wrong, a non-native is not prohibited from making any native styled art or craft as long as they do not put "NDN Made" on it. I have seen several trading posts where both genuine native crafts and non-native made crafts are sold. Only the native made crafts bear the NDN Made" tag along with the artists' enrollment numbers.
The good trading posts will always point out which objects are native made and which ones that are not. At least, that's what I've come across.
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Unegv Waya: You are correct as far as I know. When I used to make Flutes I would only label them as to the key and sell them as plain old flutes. Even though they were woodlands style Native American flutes I would not label them as such. You can't claim if you do not have a card that says you are Indian. Each tribe does have the option of designating an artist or crafts person as such but that also has to be notated on the article being offered for sale. This designated artist does not have to be a Tribal member or even an NDN as I understand it. It should go without saying that said artist would in some significant way be adding to the tribes benefit in some substantial way. Another example. If I was to make let us say war clubs or dance stick blanks and sell them to a Native American as raw materials to which he added beads feathers or some such then because he used my product as a raw material he could label the as Native American made. Example the dye used in a Navajo rug is purchased, the beads for bead work are purchased. People just need to be aware when purchasing wall hangers. I have seen so much junk on the powwow trail it is almost beyond belief. We were talking one evening after a powwow and one of the Native vendors laughed and said "Yep gonna get some of those white folks money I am. "LittleOldMan"
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I've heard similar murmurings, Little Old Man. I won't even go into some of the things overheard during the 49. ::)
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Whitewolf said
As I understand the IACA, and somebody please correct me if I am wrong, a non-native is not prohibited from making any native styled art or craft as long as they do not put "NDN Made" on it. I have seen several trading posts where both genuine native crafts and non-native made crafts are sold. Only the native made crafts bear the NDN Made" tag along with the artists' enrollment numbers.
I think in a lot of cases, the general public who in most cases are ignorant about American Indians to begin with don’t really pay attention as to whether or not something says “American Indian made”, or Native style. So many of these fakes and frauds get around the law that way. If you go into a vendor’s booth and you see dream catchers, turquoise necklaces, beadwork, and other craft work, most people could really care less because they just want the best bargain. So even though some vendors follow the law, they are still being disingenuous to a certain degree. In these cases they are still taking away from American Indian Artist who in most cases grew up in their communities and learned their trades through their families. These authentic American Indian artists are being cut out of the market by to many people with vague stories of Cherokee princesses in their family. Not to mention the fact that the Indian Arts and Crafts Act is rarely enforced.
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Y'all are missing the point. Rattle, because he thinks one drop of Indian blood makes you Indian
Nice insult and the putting of words in my mouth there bls926, now do me a favor and find where I have ever said such a thing in those exact words. I have never said such a thing even as opposed to the concept of BQ as I am. In regards to who is NDN and who is not, I am very complex in my explanations of it, just as I am fair about it.
You on the other hand are rigid in such a way and put people in boxes that it makes me wonder if your only real interaction with NDN people is on the internet.
Since my first interactions with you on here, you have always tried to come at me like you are some sort of authority, and that everyone should bow down to because of it.
Well my friend let me make something very clear to you hear, and hopefully you will remember it and it was cause a lot less friction between us.
In terms of real life interaction with an NDN community and being known and accepted as such, I for one am. Can you say the same about yourself?
Before developing very serious health problems, I routinely attended sweats here in California with a well known elder who has now passed. Ironically, some of the things he taught me you try to contradict by arguing BQ in such a way that ignores things that have to do with divinity.
In terms of community recognition versus legal definition there are areas that cause very critical grey areas. However when it comes to community recognition, I routinely see well known elders and well respected NDN people accept and consider people who are not enrolled and might come from some story about not being able to prove who they as NDN even with those stories, because of their very good and honorable interaction with this NDN community for many years. Perhaps if those same people ventured onto a site like this, a person such as yourself would try to tell them who they can or can not say they are. I doubt the NDN community around here is very much different then many others in the US and Canada. That is why I often wonder if you interact with NDN people off of the net, or maybe you do and are soo afraid that some fraud might read about such things happening that you do not speak of it.
Let there be no doubt in your mind that I do not believe that just because somebody has one drop of NDN blood in their veins that I see them as such. It's just that I try to be fair about things, and judge people from what I have seen and learned in my life, and unlike you I don't put people in rigid little boxes.
I am all for hunting down frauds and fakes, but I am not going to engage in witch hunts or come at people who might have legitimate claims to who they are in such a way as you do, and try to tell them because the same US government that has done so much damage to NDN people does not recognize them as such, that they have no right to claim to be so.
I recognize in life and in this world there is a balance to everything, and I try my best to think in such a way and be fair with other human beings.
As far as book education versus real world experience. I have never claimed to be any sort of expert or traditional person. However I will acknowledge in my life I have been blessed to know and learn from many, and those things I have learned I try my best to use in my judgment of other people in regards to who is right or wrong, NDN or NON NDN. So yes I do have real world knowledge and experience. Come out to California some time and I can gladly prove it.
Then with me there is the issue of book learned things. Though by my grammatical mistakes etc it is probably obvious that I have no degree, but that does not mean I did not attend college. I entered college with the intent of getting into journalism, and my mother told me there was this well known and famous NDN woman on campus and to be sure to take her classes. That woman was of course Wendy Rose, and I did as my mother told me and took her classes, and Wendy became a personal hero of mine. I excelled in her classes and learned so much from her. Later when Wendy became ill and didn't teach, I took the classes of a local Yokut educator by the name of kathy Lewis, whom if you did a google on her name would find that she is been locked in one of the recognition disputes with her own people for a long time now. All of this could be proven with my school records.
So point of telling you that is to let you know when it comes to legal, historical, technical things spoken on this board and others; I do know what I am talking about most the time, or at least have a very good understanding of things. When I don't is when I will listen or ask questions.
I really don't understand who you are or think you are, but quite frankly I don't care. For somebody who is actually a Cherokee person who's family fell through the cracks, I really don't understand why you seem so hellbent on making sure that people with legitimate claims to being NDN are denied that right to say and proudly acknowledge that and be who they are. Sure there are laws and area's of respect some people who are not enrolled should follow, but you seem hellbent on trying to tell them they can't even acknowledge they are NDN people. It's odd to me when people have that line of thinking consider there are people in tribes with no BQ cutoff that are probably way less attached to their people then some who are not enrolled, and yet just because they have legal status they are allowed to call themselves NDN due to the law when in reality they are not in soo many ways.
Maybe because of your family history and what I believe you said they did in terms of assimilation, you feel everyone is like your family; of course that would be you using transference and putting your life on that of others and their families, and that is just wrong.
There are people I greatly admire and respect on this board. Two of them are Dr. Al and Momma Porcupine,even if I had once had issues with them and disliked them. Both of them I believe have taken the time to get to know me at least just a little bit, and neither of them try to talk down to me like you do. In fact though Momma Porcupine said she usually does not agree with me on things, she has said something to me that she still likes to read my perspective on things. To me that was an honor and a compliment.
The person I admire the most on here though is Blackwolf. When I read his posts and his perspectives I see a man who judges people just as critically as he does fairly. It's obvious to me by his posts that he is who he says he is, and is obviously connected to his people. There have been times I have spoken to him in private when I had questions about things, and some of those times he has agreed with things I have been taught by elders here, even if they are not from his people. At those times, it lets me know that I am not wrong or totally wrong about things, and that my understanding of things is not way off base.
You however are not somebody I respect, and that is because you say next to nothing about yourself, and yet try to talk down to me and others like you are some sort of authority.
If you want my respect or wish me to speak to respectfully, then never try to talk down to me like you do, or do as you have now done and put words in my mouth that I have never said. I will never accept that from you, or that your opinion on things is some how higher or better then mine. Your opinion is just that, your opinion.
bls926:I'm not saying someone can't write about their life. Anyone can write anything they want. What I am saying is that someone who is not an enrolled member of a recognized First Nation should not claim that they are a Native American author. It's no different than someone who is not recognized creating a piece of jewelry, weaving a basket, or making a piece of pottery and calling it American Indian. No different than these guys we've been talking about putting Lakota on their music. If you aren't Indian, don't market your creations as Native American.
There is a difference though. A person "creates" artwork, but doesn't create their life, ancestry, or experiences.
Sure there are people like you have mentioned such as Nasdijj/Timothy Barrus' whom were nothing more then fakes and frauds, but I have already mentioned I am not talking about him. I am talking about people with legitimate claims to who they are.
Let's take you for an example. Let's say that despite not being enrolled your family maintained themselves as Cherokee people to the present by at least carrying on whatever ways they could over the generations. Let's say they experiences hardship and racism because of.
Then let's say one of the people in your family or even yourself had a very interesting life based on those experiences as a Cherokee person and wrote a book about it. Since you and your family are indeed in my opinion and probably yours, Cherokee people; should they be legally barred from writing as such?
I am guessing you would probably say no since you think enrollment is the absolute standard for being NDN and having the right to say as such; however I do not.
What I will say here though and strongly emphasis, is that never in this thread have I made any such argument that anyone with a drop of NDN blood is NDN or should be allowed to make NDN art or music ect.
What I have been talking about is non recognized people with legitimate claims to who they are.
bls926:There are exceptions to the law. If you are accepted by your Nation, whether enrolled or not, you are permitted to advertise your work as American Indian with their endorsement. Anyone who is truly connected to their people, should be able to get their blessing and market themselves as Native.
Totally agree with you here, which is why my entire argument has been people with legitimate claims, and not anyone claiming some ancestry they can not prove as you have so wrongly put in my mouth.
However I would like to add here that in places such as California there are entire tribes and bands who are very much NDN people who have no recognition from the state of federal government.
I once posted up a link and some other things in which a man who was next to full blooded was barred from having eagle feathers because his tribe fell into this position. In fact the court acknowledged he was "Indian for some purposes, but not for others." So in that case, if he was barred from practicing his own religion, then I doubt they would let him make artwork as well. I don't know but that seems likely considering one of his legal rights under the constitution was barred due to lack of federal status.
I happen to know people like that off the net since I live in California around many bands who are legitimately NDN people, but have no status.
I'm not saying someone can't write about whatever they want. I definitely don't believe in censorship. What I am saying is that if you aren't a citizen of a First Nation, you shouldn't be able to market your writing as Native American. There isn't any difference between baskets, blankets, jewelry, or a novel. All are expressions of art. Truth in advertising. Anyone ever hear of that
Again, as I have pointed out to you already; I agree with unless a person has legitimate claims to being NDN regardless if not enrolled.
There is at least one author that I know of who was most possibly not enrolled, and does a very fine job of writing about things that are native subject matter. He does not "speak for all Indian people," and was a critically acclaimed and well known writer in the native community.
He of course was Louis Owens. Now maybe he was enrolled and I do not know about it, but at one time I do know he states that at least half of his family was not on the dawes rolls, but did show up on the Oklahoma Indian census of 1910.
Never the less in his book mixed blood messages he does a very good job at talking about people and family who are legitimately NDN, but do not show up on any kind of records. These are not people who "hid out on the trail of tears" as some twinkies claim to be the reason why they are not enrolled, but rather NDN people who lived in Indian territory which is now known as Oklahoma.
One more time . . . and I swear this is the last time I'm going to try to make y'all understand
Again, I want to ask you who exactly you are to try and make anyone understand that people with legitimate claims to who they are must not acknowledge that?
Sure I agree with you in regards to phonies,and people with ggggggg grandma stories they can't prove, and that is about it.
How many people purchased Nasdijj/Timothy Barrus' novels, because they thought he was Navajo
How many people drink and drive, or break the thousands upon thousands of laws we have on the law books? Should people with legitimate claims and experiences in regards to themselves and their families be barred from writing in such a way that makes them legally deny being NDN because of men such as Barrus.
Men like him should be hunted down, exposed and even prosecuted if possible, however it does not mean that people's freedom of speech and other things should be taken away because of him.
In all due honesty they could say they are not NDN because they are not enrolled, and most likely in both the libraries and books stores, their books will be found in the Native American section.
I guess in that regards, we would have to start giving book stores and public libraries fines for putting books in the wrong section huh?
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Rattlebone
Well my friend let me make something very clear to you hear, and hopefully you will remember it and it was cause a lot less friction between us.
Oh for Petes sakes Rattlebone...
I understand that you may not have felt bls926's comment about you was fair, but you didn't need to get all insulted and respond with an off topic personal attack...How I see it is just that bls926 puts a strong value on honesty. The accusation she puts people in boxes, and is high and mighty about it is just your own interprtation...
You do stand up for PODIAs....
And yes your own definition of who is NDN, and who isn't is complicated...which is Ok because in my opinion, so is the truth. I think we all recognize that. But if we all see this a bit differently, no one needs to try and discredit the other person with the " I'm more NDN than you" arguement.
As for the topic of this thread, which is how authors and musicians identify themselves...I think everybody who is commenting here is right - in some circumstances.
If someone presents themself as Lakota, but what they actually mean is that they have a greatgrandparent who was Lakota, but the family assimilated after that, it would be more accurate to say that they are a descendent - and if they are mentioning their Lakota heritage in an interview, they should be clear their work is inspired by their experience as a descendent.
One example which comes to mind is the author of the book Half Breed, Maria Campbell. At the time this book was written , the Metis had no recognition as Aboriginal people, and in the book they are usually reffered to simply as as 1/2 breeds, or the "road allowance people". Maria campbell has, what she reffers to as several 1/2 breed or Cree great grandparents, but nowhere does she try and pass herself off as being a Cree author. She wrote honestly and provocatively , as a person of mixed blood. If she had tried to pass herself off as Cree, it would have take away from her true identity, and the honest perspective of her story, which was about the reality of being a person of mixed blood.
http://www.enotes.com/contemporary-literary-criticism/campbell-maria
I think the problem is, when people misrepresent themselves or try to deny parts of who they are, in order to only put emphasize another part.
I think the important thing is that any information a author or composer provides about themselves, ( especially if they are using this to market something ) is in fact accurate. And if a persons indigenous identity is a central plank in gaining public attention , just what this indigenous identity is, needs to be accurately explained. I also think people using an indigenous identity to gain public credibility should have a responsibility to provide enough information to the public, so the public can verify their claims .
Sometimes, like for some of the people who post here, it may be too complicated or personal to explain all the things that have contributed to make a person who they are, and when someone says they are Cherokee or Lakota or whatever, in their minds, it's just a short way of saying they believe they have some descent and that they feel this is an important part of their identity. Even when people make these claims as casual parts of on line conversations, I wish they would be more clear about what they are saying, but some instances of this are more exploitive and dishonest than others.
It might take some thought as to how to word the arts and craft law, so it penalize authors and composers who misrepresen themselves, but would still allow honest expression to people of some Native descent. But I think it could be done, and would help discourage a lot of exploitive frauds who spread misinformation.
In refference to John Two Hawks claiming to be a Lakota musician, maybe someone could email him and ask him who exactly his Lakota ancestors are.
The way this guy is using references to Lakota spirituality to attract people to his workshops or sell books, seems wrong to me no matter what his personal heritage is......But putting my own opinion on that aside...
He is clearly using the claim to Lakota heritage to market his products, and I think he has a responsibility to provide a way for the public to verify this.
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I think the important thing is that any information a author or composer provides about themselves, ( especially if they are using this to market something ) is in fact accurate. And if a persons indigenous identity is a central plank in gaining public attention , just what this indigenous identity is, needs to be accurately explained. I also think people using an indigenous identity to gain public credibility should have a responsibility to provide enough information to the public, so the public can verify their claims .
It might take some thought as to how to word the arts and craft law, so it penalize authors and composers who misrepresen themselves, but would still allow honest expression to people of some Native descent. But I think it could be done, and would help discourage a lot of exploitive frauds who spread misinformation.
Yes, for whatever it's worth, I agree with this completely. Well said.
And I do want to say that when I read Bls state:
"One more time . . . and I swear this is the last time I'm going to try to make y'all understand"
I was insulted and found it condescending, but I chose to ignore it and not reply with what first came to mind as I didn't want to engage in this. But I am speaking of it now because I don't think it's wrong for Rattle to have spoken up.. and for what he had to say of it, and, I might add, he did so in a nice way.
I'm speaking of it because we are all people here, and it isn't nice to read something that insinuates because I am perceiving something from a different point, that I'm somehow too stupid to understand or have not or cannot. I didn't like being talked to in that way. It was condescending to me. And if I had had a nice way to have spoke of it before I would have, but I didn't, so I said nothing of it.
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Critter
It was condescending to me.
Or maybe it was just her feeling frustrated because what she was trying to say seemed obvious to her...
Critter you have only participated here for a short time. What you may not realize or understand, is that besides the time and effort some people have put into responding to these issues on this message board, many of these conversation we have here , are conversations people have had to have with people in their real lives for decades... And when it is PODIAs telling other PODIAs that they are being dishonest or exploitive, the people who are saying this also tend to be affected by their relatives bad behavior. After several years, and many conversations along the same lines, it can get frustrating. People can loose their mental bounce so to speak, and can just start feeling a bit exasperated.
Rattlebone does make a habit of very persitently sticking up for people of distant ancestry who want to identify as NDN. While I admire his dedication to what he sees as fairness, and I do think he is seriously considering this ,and evolving his own position, I have often felt frustrated with him because he has yet to clearly define just who and what types of behavior he is so persistently sticking up for.
I think the comment that he doesn't agree that someoneis NDN if the person has a story their ggggggrandma was NDN but they can't prove it, is about as close as he has got to narrowing this down.
Every time I read this, I think ...OK ..what about someone who CAN prove their gggggrandma was NDN...
For that matter what about someone who can prove their gr grandma was NDN?
Are we talking about these people having a right to be members of a social community which is mainly Native and mixed blood? If a person has a right to a social identity as a member of some sort of Native community ,does this automatically entitle these same people to a right to a political identity as indigenous people , independant of memebrship in a indigenous Nation ? Does a person with a social identity as an NDN also automatically have a right to benifit from whatever finacial opprotunities may be gained by identifying as a Native person?
These are important questions, and although Rattlebone has had a lot to say in every discussion that comes up that touches on this, i have never seen them actually clarify how they see this...
This particular thread is about people marketing their music or their writting as indigenous authors.
So is Rattlebone saying he thinks someone who has a gggggrandmother who was Lakota, has the right to market their music as the creations of a Lakota NDN?
Although Rattlebone has a lot to say about the rights of PODIAs , I have yet to see where they have explained what the limits to these rights might be.
And yes constantly responding to people defending the rights of PODIAs , and not being able to get a clear answer, about where these same people who defend the rights of PODIAs would put some limits on what these people are entitled to - and not entitled to - can be both exahsting and frustrating.
And sometimes that might come through in the tone of some peoples posts.
Critter...if you haven't had much first hand expereince trying to get this clarified, peoples frustration - combined with your own lack of expereince,- may come across as condescending.
I think we all need to cut each other some slack, especially when what we are responding to , is how we percieved something that was said, or what we think may have been the motive behind it, and not what was actually said.
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Actually Momma Porcupine, I have explained in great detail my thoughts on the topic you have just broke down to Critter.
Even when we were all arguing with Paul and others I have broke this down. So I do not see how you can say how I have never given an explanation about it.
In your initial post to me in this thread you stated "And yes your own definition of who is NDN, and who isn't is complicated," which is false because in actuality it is,and has always been complicated. When dealing with people on sensitive matters things should not be so simple as to put them in little boxes.
Thing is, I do not think I should address your statements in this thread because that would derail it. I was sticking to the topic and being very civil with everyone on this matter until BLS926 made her off remark about me.
I do not believe and have never once said that anyone with any Indian blood is an NDN regardless if I am more accepting of people then others.
Nor do I feel that saying " I defend PODIA's" is an accurate statement because it would mean that I would actually think anyone with any NDN blood is an NDN. I do not feel that way and never have.
Anyhow I am not going to say anymore on that in this thread because I do not believe it is fair to everyone else here, anymore then some of the statements made about me in this thread. That way the topic stays on topic.
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I think the Indian Arts and Crafts Act even in its current form should be looked at. Currently it lets members of any State Recognized Cherokee Tribe to market their Art as "Cherokee" or “Cherokee Made”. In some other threads I went over why most of these people's claims are bogus and that was corroborated my Moma_porcupine’s thread on genealogy. So under the current law, you have people of fabricated ancestry passing off their artwork as Cherokee. I know you can't classify all State Recognized Tribes in the same category, as some of them really are Historic Tribes, nor classify all unenrolled people, but in the cases of some of these bogus groups, it only takes the signature of a governor for their members to gain status as “Authentic American Indian Artisans”. Considering the hordes of bogus State Recognized Cherokee Tribes out there. (I think there are 4 just in Alabama alone), we can see where the problem lies.
I’ve posted an Act passed by the Cherokee Nation Tribal Council in 2008. Section 4 addresses the types of Art covered.
http://tribalrecognition.cherokee.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=D0d0B7bVETA%3D&tabid=106&mid=2118 (http://tribalrecognition.cherokee.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=D0d0B7bVETA%3D&tabid=106&mid=2118)
It ties into some of the post above that talk about things such as storytelling and oral histories. It also goes beyond the “Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990”, in that it only recognizes citizens of Federally Recognized Tribes. While I do agree that there may be some legitimate people who are unfairly left out, the line has to be drawn somewhere. The law is meant to counter all the Fakes and Frauds that misrepresent our Tribe, not to leave out people who may have legitimate claims. I just don't know how that can be done so easily.
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Critter
It was condescending to me.
Critter...if you haven't had much first hand expereince trying to get this clarified, peoples frustration - combined with your own lack of expereince,- may come across as condescending.
I think we all need to cut each other some slack, especially when what we are responding to , is how we percieved something that was said, or what we think may have been the motive behind it, and not what was actually said.
Ah, well, my comment wasn't in regards to Rattle's view on who is ndn. I was speaking solely on the comment made that I qouted/re-posted in my previous reply.
Well, I understand, and have understood for quite some time. And I believe I was being quite clear in that anyone using their nationality as a marketing tool is exploiting people, and in some cases are clear frauds if they cannot produce anything to back up their claims. I do not support people stealing and selling that which is not theirs. And I do not support people selling something that is clearly against the rights and voices of their own people. I also do not believe that anyone with ndn ancestry is automatically an ndn in the eye of the law, or tribes. That determination, I believe, should remain to the tribe to determine who is and who isn't.
I also understand how overwhelmed this world is with the exploitation of Native peoples. It is a constant every day fight and people either just don't care, or they truly don't understand, or they understand but justify it in some way to make it OK.. when it is not. I perceive it's a constant insult to Natives everywhere who have to deal with flakes and wannabes, frauds and fakes. And I also perceive it to be um.. specific to indigenous peoples. No one is flaunting that their Greek and writing books using their Greek nationality as a selling and marketing ploy. However, I do not see where if someone believes they are Native, and writes some novel and mentions in their bio bit that they are Native, that that is anything really more or less than if someone made comment they were Greek. There is a difference between exploiting and personally misrepresenting, and simply being misinformed or perhaps even not recognized.
Now, if there was no exploitation going on, no frauds, none of this New Age gimmickery and whatnot, if all was well and good.. and someone wrote a novel about totally unrelated topic.. and off hand mentioned in their bio bit that they were NA, I doubt anyone would even notice it as being anything worth questioning.. just as no one would notice it being anything worth questioning if someone mentioned they were Greek in their bio bit on a book that is just a novel with nothing to do about anything indigenous.
I'm sorry if when I read those words, I read them exactly as written, and felt condescended to. I am human and get frustrated as well, for things I face all the time in my life that I can never speak of. Oh well. I'm tired, spiritually and otherwise, just plain "tired". And I don't feel like being told I'm too dense to 'get it', then being told I shouldn't feel how I felt because of the frustrations of another. People are people, maybe she was having as bad a day as I was.. maybe she didn't mean it in that way, but it is how I felt, and for whoever or wherever or whatever it matters to anyone, ... or not.. I am a valid being and it was not called for to be spoken to like that. But whatever, people are people. People either take the time to think of how their words will affect another or they don't.. who cares anymore.. it's over.
Done now. I extend apologies if anyone feels the need for, as I am not perfect and although I have no intentions of hurting anyone through word or expression, it's often possible that that happens. So I extend apologies.
Peace. Be well. Sincerely.
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Guess I should reply to these posts, even though I was tempted to ignore them. First, I was not being condescending, was not trying to "talk down" to anyone. Frustrated? Hell yes! Tired of trying to explain what I meant? Absolutely! Y'all kept saying people shouldn't be censored; people should be allowed to write their life-stories. I never said people couldn't write whatever they wanted to. I don't advocate censorship; never have and never will. What I do believe is that if someone is not connected to their Nation, they should not call themself a Native American author.
Critter, I apologize if you misconstrued my intentions. I'm not an authority on anything and have never tried to give that impression. I am passionate about my beliefs. You're new here and may not realize all the dynamics at play. Rattle was not being polite to me, far from it. There are underlying currents. Most times they stay right below the surface; other times, like in this thread, they spike.
Rattle, that was quite a dissertation. You feel better now? We got off to a bad start because of the Ben Carnes thread; you've been critical of me ever since. You have a problem with me, not because of anything I say or do, but because of who my friends are. You've even gone so far as to do research into my background. Enough. No more. As for your feelings about who is and isn't Indian . . . You've been ambiguous. You accept one person who can't prove his blood, while attacking others. It's obvious to those of us who know you, who you're talking about when you say ggggggrandmother. Why do you accept one person with no documentation, while dismissing another as a wannabee? BQ isn't important to you; however I've seen you dis someone who looked like they were only "1/4 BQ at most". You've defended the rights of PODIA's to claim Indian status, but are very critical of State recognized tribes. It's a little hard to figure out where you stand on this issue. Maybe it just depends on who you're talking to or about.
I don't want to continue this conversation. Y'all have had your say and now I've had mine. The thread has been derailed enough.
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Rattlebone
You do have a good point about it not being fair to bring up my impression of what you have said in other threads , and as you have posted in this one a number of times, I should be asking you to clarify what you have said here , just on this topic.
What was being discussed was people who compose or perform music, and market themselves and there product as created by an American Indian.
You expanded this to include books.
And then you said...
Rattlebone to bls926 in this thread on this subject
Reply #29
Though you might call yourself a descendant, the bottom line is you are Cherokee because you are Cherokee by blood
This is the type of comment you make where you seem to be saying anyone with a drop of blood is Indian if they want to be . Which was replied to after you said it....
Reply #38
bls926
Y'all are missing the point. Rattle, because he thinks one drop of Indian blood makes you Indian.
Rattlebone you said this, in this thread , in relation to what is being discussed here , and you said , in your opinion, this is the bottom line...
This is an example of why I am saying your personal way of defining who is an NDN and who is entitled to use an NDN identity for personal gain is confusing...
So, considering that creating culturally inspired art, music, books ect is one of the few ways indigenous people have to make a living, which may also allow them to retain many of their traditional values and culture, and considering that there is a limited market for products marketed as made by American Indians, how exactly does your comment above, define who you consider as having the right to call themselves an American Indian producer, and who exactly do you think has a right to benifit from this identity?
Rattlebone, I am trying to nail down your opinion on this. Could you please pick the definitions which would most reflects your own views..
1. A creative work can rightly be said to be produced by an American Indian if the producer is enrolled in a federally recognized tribe, or who has the official permission of the leaders of a federally recognized tribe, to market their product as American Indian made.
2. A creative work can rightly be said to be produced by an American Indian if the producer has more than 1/8 BQ or they can prove a direct ancestor within the last 2 generations who was a member of a federally recognized tribe.
3. A creative work can rightly be said to be produced by an American Indian if the producer has more that 1/32 BQ or they can prove they had a direct ancestor within the last 4 generations who was a member of a federally recognized tribe
4. A creative work can rightly be said to be produced by an American Indian if the producer has more that 1/32 BQ or the producer can prove they had a direct ancestor within the last 4 generations who was a member of a federally recognized tribe, but only if they have some friends who are NDN, who see them as NDN and they have participated in some form of American Indian culture.
5. A creative work can rightly be said to be produced by an American Indian if the producer has more that 1/1024 BQ or if the producer can prove they had a direct ancestor within the last 8 generations who was a member of a federally recognized tribe, but only if this person has some friends who are NDN, and only if this person has particpated in some events which involve some form of American Indian culture.
6. A creative work can rightly be said to be produced by an American Indian if the producer has any amount of NDN descent , as long as they can prove it but only if this person has some friends who are NDN, and only if this person has particpated in some events which involve some form of American Indian culture.
7. A creative work can rightly be said to be produced by an American Indian if the producer has been influenced by some aspect of Native culture and wishes to identify themself as NDN.
8.As long as it is respectful of cultural boundaries, and indigenous property rights, a creative work can rightly be said to have been influenced by some aspect of a persons own indigenous heritage or expereince , or by some aspect of Native culture, and anyone who wants to is free to acknowledge this influence , but not to market their work as created by an American Indian.
Personally I would choose number 1 and number 8.
Ward Churchill could have written everything he wrote, and it would have been a lot more powerful , if he had done this simply as a person who was influenced by indigenous cultures, who believed he may have had some Native descent .
Rattlebone
though much much fewer then those who claim to be NDN without proof; there are indeed NDN people whom have fell through the cracks of the enrollment process.
Yes this is very true , which is why it can be frustrating when someone says that for them bottom line is anyone with Cherokee blood is Cherokee, and then get upset and deny saying this... along with the very real problems this lack of clear definitions creates....
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FWIW, I agree, Momma Porcupine, that numbers one and eight fit what I have always accepted the IACA to be about. Those two seem to describe the true spirit of the law's intention.
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I thought that you all might find this site interesting as it speaks to the topic of the NA flute http://www.native-languages.org/flutes.htm "LittleOldMan"
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Ive been continueing to think about this, and i feel a bit bad as i generally appreciate a lot of what Rattlebone has had to say, and I think his motives are generally honorable, even if I don't always agree with him ...
He has often expressed concern for the people who are nearly full blood but who for one reason or another can't enroll, and I think this is valid.
Maybe that concern could be addressed without leaving a huge loophole for non natives misappropriating Native identity, by adding to option #1, a way people who aren't enrolled but can prove they are at least 1/2 of Native descent , could apply for an extemption which would allow them to advertise themselves as unenrolled American Indian producers. (?) Would that solve that concern?
Rattlebone, i still hope you will explain which of the possible options I suggested , you think would best address this problem....
It seems there is a very direct connection between people identifying themselves as NDN > and then going on to assume they are entitled to access , control and benifit from the resources which belong to Native people.
And it seems to me that even if people don't mean it this way, encouraging people who are descendents to identify themselves as NDN >, is in fact encouraging people who are mainly non native to feel they are entitled to access , control and benifit from resources which belong to NDN people and communities.
Because this is a serious problem, I don't see how protecting the rights of a few individuals who may fall through the cracks, is worth not protecting the rights of the many indigenous artists who are hurt by having to compete with non native people wanting to take over their identity.
I'm sorry if I seem overly nit picky, but I think clear definitions about who owns what are really important, especially when it comes to clear definitions that protect indigenous peoples right to benifit from their own resources and culture.
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. . . He has often expressed concern for the people who are nearly full blood but who for one reason or another can't enroll, and I think this is valid.
Maybe that concern could be addressed without leaving a huge loophole for non natives misappropriating Native identity, by adding to option #1, a way people who aren't enrolled but can prove they are at least 1/2 of Native descent , could apply for an extemption which would allow them to advertise themselves as unenrolled American Indian producers. (?) Would that solve that concern? . . .
Wouldn't #1 take care of that? Anyone with a real connection to their people would be able to receive the blessing and permission of their Nation to market their art as American Indian, whether they were enrolled or not.
1. A creative work can rightly be said to be produced by an American Indian if the producer is enrolled in a federally recognized tribe, or who has the official permission of the leaders of a federally recognized tribe, to market their product as American Indian made.
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Perhaps a clause of some sort, that states the intention of the producer of the creative work in regards to those who 'fall between the cracks'. If it is merely for self expression and not for benefiting (from) or exploiting the Native Identity on a whole.
As far as on the product itself, wording is a good option but as some have pointed out, many people don't really 'read' the wording and 'Native style' doesn't ring bells with them as not being 'Native made'.
Perhaps one thing that could be done is create a recognizable seal that is stamped on any true Native works, so any book or cd in any retail setting can easily be recognized as 'authentic'. People are generally able to much easier see a stamp/pictorial of authenticity than to read words and comprehend as to what it is they are buying.
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Wanted to add that basic psychology of people tells me that the normal seeker person looking for a book, would be more apt to buy something stamped as 'authentic' than not. Standing in a book store, looking at all the books on Native Americans, they choose by what sounds to give the best information. Why choose this book, when the one next to it has a stamp of authenticity on it. The stamp needs to be on the spine and front/back covers and stand out.
It is unfortunate so many people get sucked into the new age vacuum, simply because they don't know what they are reading is false. By the time they're entrenched, it's harder to get them to see beyond it.
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While I do agree that there should be clear boundaries between enrolled citizens of Federally Recognized Tribes in regards to resources and the marketing of Art, I also believe that people who have a certain heritage whether that be Cherokee, Swedish or Chinese, do have the right to practice that heritage and be proud of it. I speak out a lot against fakes on these boards. And it’s not meant to be directed at unenrolled people who for whatever reason aren't enrolled, it's more geared towards people with fabricated heritage and history who have stereotypical and sometimes racist views of what being Indian means to them. If people want to claim and be proud of their Cherokee heritage, then they would have the right to do that. However, one should also keep in mind that there's no such thing as a generic American Indian culture. If being Cherokee is important to someone, then what I would recommend to them is to make contact with actual Cherokees. For the most part they are located in Oklahoma and North Carolina. Sure American Indians have some common and shared elements of culture in the same way that French, British, and Greeks do. But if someone wants to claim and be proud of their Cherokee heritage, then they should seek out Cherokees and Cherokee culture and heritage, not some Pan Indian Identity. The most important thing is for your own people to recognize you, and whether or not Indians from other tribes recognize you as Indian is really of secondary importance. It would be like if I was of Greek ancestry through a grandparent, and I was trying to be accepted by French and Germans by claiming a European identity. I'm not saying I wouldn't support certain European causes, just that I should concentrate on the heritage that I am claiming to practice and be proud of.
I took this from the CN website in regards to the citizenship issuse.
Heritage is different from citizenship. Many people with genuine Indian heritage will never meet the qualifications to become citizens in a federally recognized tribe. The Cherokee Nation does not question anyone’s claims of heritage or ancestry, but merely points out the significant difference between claiming heritage and having citizenship in a federally recognized Indian tribe. We encourage people of Cherokee heritage to take pride in and become active in heritage and cultural organizations even if they are not eligible for citizenship.
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Good post, BlackWolf! I especially liked what you said about being recognized by your own people. There's no such thing as legitimate Pan-Indian culture. Thank you.
But if someone wants to claim and be proud of their Cherokee heritage, then they should seek out Cherokees and Cherokee culture and heritage, not some Pan Indian Identity. The most important thing is for your own people to recognize you, and whether or not Indians from other tribes recognize you as Indian is really of secondary importance.
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Wouldn't #1 take care of that?
In most cases I would think that would be all that would be needed, but having a clause that would protect people who are Native , if someone in a tribal government had some sort of personal agenda, which unfairly excluded some people , this might help protect a few more people who deserve protection. Rattlebone sounds like he has seen some situations like this in California.
Perhaps a clause of some sort, that states the intention of the producer
I think proving someones intentions is next to impossible and would just lead to endless disputes. Enrollment or official OK from a tribe is the most objective criteria, and would protect the most people, who rightly deserve protection.
It's hard to understand how people can say an image they captured with a camera , when the person niether made the object photographed or the camera , is their intellectual property, and a author of a musical composition that is too closely copied by another composer has legal protection, but when non natives do obvious copies of traditional designs or melodies , there doesn't seem to be the same legal consequences.
Perhaps one thing that could be done is create a recognizable seal that is stamped on any true Native works
That would help, but first you would have to define who was eligible to use this seal.
I also believe that people who have a certain heritage whether that be Cherokee, Swedish or Chinese, do have the right to practice that heritage and be proud of it
I don't know Blackwolf... if someone has a Swedish gr grandma, and their family has lived in the US for the past 3 generations, even if they have visited Sweden and feel a deep connection with that part of their heritage, unless they were going to become a formal citizen of the country of Sweden , it would still seem strange if such a person who had 7 gr granparents who were Irish began insisting they were Swedish and nothing else.
it would make me wonder why they were so concerned to deny that other 7/8 of their family background...
And even if such a person did become a citizen of Sweden, and in becoming a citizen of Sweden they renounced all other political identities, they would still have a lot of non Swedish heritage.
That is where people of distant ancestry who claim an NDN identity begin feeling unreal and even exploitive to me. Unless they had some kind of discomfort with the other parts of their heritage, it seems a person can be proud of their small amount of Swedish / Cherokee or Chinese heritage, and can even feel most strongly about the influence this has on them, without needing to deny everything else.
I know lots of PODIAs who are proud of their Native heritage, and acknowledge it's influence, but who would never claim to be NDN, and as far as i have seen , those who do are usually exploiters.
Thats why I believe that most these unenrolled PODIAs who say they are Cherokee (or other tribal identity) are not being honest, even if they do have some Native blood, and it would be more correct to say they had some influence from their Cherokee ( or whatever it is ) heritage.
I also think the world view /influence of indigenous people has generally rubbed off on a lot of the other cultures they have lived beside, often in very benificial ways.
But people don't have to have Native blood to have been influenced by this, and people don't have to become NDN to incorporate some of the positive core values- (like it is no longer acceptable to beat children) - or musical influences - into their own ways.
My use of the term "American Indian produced" was just a short way of avoiding a long list of specific tribes.
(Edited to improve order of paragraphs)
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Isn't there a clause in the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990 that gives non enrolled people who can prove descent from enrolled members the opprutunity to lable their Art as "Native American Made"?
Under the Act, an Indian is defined as a member of any federally or State recognized Indian Tribe, or an individual certified as an Indian artisan by an Indian Tribe.
http://www.doi.gov/iacb/act.html (http://www.doi.gov/iacb/act.html)
I was just curious as to how that works? ( To become certified? )) Lets say for example your mom is 1/4 Navajo and you can't enroll because of the minimum BQ set at a 1/4. Your 1/8 by BQ. I think these people can be certified, but I was wondering "how that works". Is it automatic?, or do you have to go before the Tribal Council and petition?
The other thing I was wondering about is if you can prove you are descended from Cheorkee, or Mohawk rolls, etc but aren't enrolled nor have a parent enrolled. Can they also be certified as Indian Artisans under the act?
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BlackWolf: My understanding is that the "Artisan" designation flows down from the Tribe rather than up from the "Artisan". I have understood that it was a way for a Tribe to both honor and individual as well as enhance the cultural identity and or economic position of the Tribe without an adoption process. Think no BQ here. It is my understanding that there are very few of these people out there. Since this is just my understanding I would be interesting in learning the true perspective from a Tribal representative. Perhaps some one here may know. "LittleOldMan"
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LittleOldMan said
BlackWolf: My understanding is that the "Artisan" designation flows down from the Tribe rather than up from the "Artisan". I have understood that it was a way for a Tribe to both honor and individual as well as enhance the cultural identity and or economic position of the Tribe without an adoption process. Think no BQ here.
LOM, Are you sure about that? I found this here. I know someone who has an enrolled parent, but they can't enroll because they fall below the minimum 1/4 BQ of their Tribe. But they got certification as an Indian Artisan. I thought this person only got this because he could prove lineal descent from an enrolled member. As I have understood it, a Tribe cannot certify someone who is not of direct linal descent of an enrolled Tribal Member. This is how I always understood it anyway. Has anyone else heard anything different besides LOM?
http://www.artnatam.com/law.html (http://www.artnatam.com/law.html)
The final regulations adopt most of these comments. As amended, section 309.4 clarifies that to be eligible for certification as an Indian artisan by a particular tribe, the individual must be of the Indian ancestry of that tribe. The final regulations clarify that the certification must be documented in writing by the governing body of an Indian tribe or by a certifying body delegated this function by the governing body of an Indian tribe. The certification to be provided by the Indian tribe is that the individual is a non-member Indian artisan of the tribe.
Sec. 309.4 How can an individual be certified as an Indian artisan?
In order for an individual to be certified by an Indian tribe as a non-member Indian artisan for purposes of this part--
The individual must be of Indian lineage of one or more members of such Indian tribe; and
The certification must be documented in writing by the governing body of an Indian tribe or by a certifying body delegated this function by the governing body of the Indian tribe.
As provided in section 107 of the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990, Public Law 101-644, a tribe may not impose a fee for certifying an Indian artisan.
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Thanks BlackHawk Looks like that I am still confused I'll read through the provided link. I am not an advocate either way just attempting to understand the law as written and applied. Be back after a while. "LOM"
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Wow! What a read. Understand now. The final regulations adopt most of these comments. As amended, section 309.4 clarifies that to be eligible for certification as an Indian artisan by a particular tribe, the individual must be of the Indian ancestry of that tribe. The final regulations clarify that the certification must be documented in writing by the governing body of an Indian tribe or by a certifying body delegated this function by the governing body of an Indian tribe. The certification to be provided by the Indian tribe is that the individual is a non-member Indian artisan of the tribe. It does leave truthful statements about the ancestry of the artist/craftsman alone. So in this case if one calls themselves Lakota, Navajo, Cherokee, or Mohawk in the marketing of his work they D##n well be ready to prove it in the legal sense of the word if not certified by a Tribe. As music, namely the Native American Music genre is not a protected class, then free speech rules. Example any one is allowed to play and enjoy a Bach concerto not just those who are of like descent. Anyone can record and sell a piece written be Johnny Cash as long as the proper royalties are paid. Music is different from a beaded choker or a feathered dance stick and while we may not agree that it is not covered under the Arts and Crafts act it isn't. The only weapons at hand then are information and shame. "LittleOldMan"
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Moma_Porcupine said
I don't know Blackwolf... if someone has a Swedish gr grandma, and their family has lived in the US for the past 3 generations, even if they have visited Sweden and feel a deep connection with that part of their heritage, unless they were going to become a formal citizen of the country of Sweden , it would still seem strange if such a person who had 7 gr granparents who were Irish began insisting they were Swedish and nothing else.
I guess I can see your point to a certain extent Moma_Porcupine. But what you begin to realize when you start to meet enough of these “Claimants”, is that nothing is really going to change the fact that they are going to claim this alleged Cherokee/Lakota/ American Indian Identity no matter how much people denounce them whether it be online or in the real world.
Read the post here by Tavareti
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0)
I guess the CN and EB are just doing Damage Control at this point in time. The only thing you can really do is denounce the obvious frauds, and make sense of claims that may be legit. I can see your point about why someone would only identify with one ancestor, which is especially strange when most of these people‘s claims aren’t based on any evidence. I guess if someone really did have a legitimate claim then they would have the right to say that this is their heritage, but what this actually means to the individual is another story. If it means saying they have Cherokee blood but that they weren’t influenced by this heritage and they just want to learn more about it then I don’t see a problem with that. Now if they think they should get some special recognition and privilege based on this, then that would be different. And I would say they don’t have the right to do this.
I guess I’m looking at this thing from a perspective of a Cherokee. Being part Cherokee is not really part of Cherokee culture so I guess that’s why I have trouble sometimes understanding these claims myself. In Oklahoma you have Full Blood Cherokees and Mixed Blood Cherokees. No one is part Cherokee based on a great grandma. They are either a Cherokee Citizen or UKB citizen and that’s it.
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Blackwolf
I guess I’m looking at this thing from a perspective of a Cherokee. Being part Cherokee is not really part of Cherokee culture so I guess that’s why I have trouble sometimes understanding these claims myself. In Oklahoma you have Full Blood Cherokees and Mixed Blood Cherokees. No one is part Cherokee based on a great grandma. They are either a Cherokee Citizen or UKB citizen and that’s it.
I think it gets confusing because there is so many layers to our identities, and peoples personal identity is largely influenced by the community they live in. BQ generally says something about the culture that was carried by our parents, garandparents or greatgrandparents, but it doesn't show which community these people lived in or what culture their children were mainly exposed to. Which is why I try and talk about BQ along with how many generations it's been since someones family lived in a native community.
And peoples political identity can be diferent than their ethnic or cultural identity. A child born in the US to Japenese parents with American citizenship, who is raised in Japan , will still have American citizenship, and the rights and benifits associated with that.
The CNO seems to have a policy similar to the US when it comes to willingness to assimilate newcomers, though it does require Cherokee blood and membership in the community recorded on the dawes rolls. I guess this is what you mean when you say from your point of view a person can't be part Cherokee. Obviously when it comes to cultural heritage and blood a person can be part Cherokee, the same way a smoothy that is put through a blender can be part blueberry , part banana and part pineapple. It isn't correct to say any smoothy with any amount of blueberries is a blueberry smoothy. This just isn't true.
But from a political point of veiw, i can see saying someone is part cherokee would be similar to saying someone was part American. There is no such thing as part American . You either are or you are not.
And I am still not sure I am understanding the various reasons a person is seen as Cherokee or not, by people who are.......
A couple weeks ago I was thinking about starting a thread to discuss what a Native community is, as culture and acceptence by a Native community is often used to justify claiming an NDN identity , but just trying to get all the various aspects of this in some coherent order was exhasting... Someday , it would be an interesting dicussion.
But what you begin to realize when you start to meet enough of these “Claimants”, is that nothing is really going to change the fact that they are going to claim this alleged Cherokee/Lakota/ American Indian Identity no matter how much people denounce them whether it be online or in the real world.
I like to hope clear communication helps...
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Moma_Porucpine said
And people’s political identity can be different than their ethnic or cultural identity.
That’s exactly it MP. This is what so many people really just don't seem to get about the whole issue. This is what we mean, when we talk about Cherokee identity. If someone has a 1/16 Cherokee BQ, no one is saying that they are racially Cherokee, just that they are politically Cherokee. No of course, it is based on race in the sense of actually being Cherokee by blood, but not in the sense of being racially Cherokee. I think a lot of people really don't understand that Indian Nations are actually sovereign Nations, not just a group of Indians. I think this is where the confusion takes place and probably why somebody with an alleged gggg Cherokee grandma might feel left out. But the Dawes Rolls were based on a residency requirement of citizens that lived in the Cherokee Nation at the time that was also based on blood and community. Sure, you may have had a gggg Cherokee grandma, but they left the Nation. Just like the people that left Ireland 200 years ago won't have descendents that can claim Irish citizenship.
So you have people who claim Cherokee heritage that really don’t understand the issues of political citizenship and how that really is the determining factor. So when we say someone is racially Cherokee or Indian, for me it means someone with a BQ of at least half. It would be ridiculous to say someone with a BQ of 1/16 is racially Indian. But with that said, “Being by blood” is very very important in the sense of actually being descended from Cherokee families by blood. This is the basis of Tribal Enrollment for the Cherokee Nation and other Tribes that use lineal descent. Our Tribal ID’s are really passports. A lot of people are mad that they have to prove who they are. Well, let’s see you cross the border from Mexico or Canada into the US without proving who you are. You’ll be turned back at the border and no matter what the story you heard that your gggg grandma told you about being American, the Border Patrol isn’t going to let you pass the checkpoint.
Also, I think some of the confusion also comes in when you have “Claimants” of Cherokee Heritage claiming to be Indian. They have to keep in mind that just because some tribes like the Cherokee Nation, Choctaw Nation, etc, etc is based on lineal descent, and for these tribes, the minimum BQ wasn’t really important historically, in other tribes out West that weren’t on the Eastern Seaboard in the Crosshairs of European colonization, this wasn’t the case so much. For someone from a Tribe out West,. Being Indian might be more about being racially Indian and living in the community. So their world view may be different than that of a Cherokee or Choctaw, or Creek. It doesn’t mean that this tribe or that Tribe is wrong; it just means that they have different world views on who is accepted as citizens of their Nations. So I think people from different Tribes should respect each other’s world views. This may be were the confusion comes in for people whose American Indian heritage is based on minimal BQ’s and aren’t enrolled in the Nations that they claim. Someone from a Tribe out west may wonder how someone can claim to be Indian that is not only racially white in appearance but at the same time isn’t even accepted by their own community where BQ isn’t an issue. Just something to think about.
Also, thats a good idea MP about the thread on what a Native Community is.
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Moma_Porcupine
And I am still not sure I am understanding the various reasons a person is seen as Cherokee or not, by people who are.......
For me, its Political citizens that are Cherokee by blood of the Cherokee Nation, UKB, or Eastern Band. But this definition even has its problems. There are enrolled CN citizens who are Shawnee and Deleware by blood as opposed to cherokee by blood because of a Treaty. And as far as I know, the Freedmen still have temporary citizenship in the CN. I don't know how I would describe the Deleware and Shawnee "Cherokees". Maybe just CN Citizens? But as far as I'm concerned the hordes of fakes in the SE and elsewhere are just non Cherokees stealing a heritage that does not belong to them. I think both you and I dealt with this in other threads. Now the question that people ask is what about the people who can document their Cherokee ancestrsy without a doubt to other rolls. For me these are the only people that would possibly have the right to start a heritage group. Just as you have the sons of Italy organizations in New York City and around the country. They are not Italian, but they are of Italian heritage. And they are Italian by blood.
I've seen varios opinoions on this. "People of Cherokee heritage", people of Cherokee descent, and "Cherokee descendents". The problem with saying someone is Cherokee that is not enrolled is obvious. I guess if they are "Cherokee by blood" somewhere in their family tree then no one can really say they can't say that they are Cherokee by blood, as opposed to saying that they are "Cherokee". Its kind of a murky issue that hasn't really been dealt with and I don't really know all the anwswers on how to best word things. . I'm assuming other Tribes have this same controversy. What is someone who is 1/16 documented Lakota? A Lakota descendent, I'm assuming?
And you have a good point about the reasons as to why someone would or would not idenitify with this small part of their family tree. No one could really deny someone to claim this heritage if they actually had it. I also have a friend who is 1/8 Indian of a Tribe that has a 1/4 BQ requirement. The parent that was enrolled from what he told me really didn't practrice the heritage much, but he does, or at least tries to learn. I guess it comes down to wording. Is this person "Indian" or of Indian heritage?
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Thanks Blackwolf
I appreciate your patience and all your explainations.
Myself, I think the wording can be important because there is stories that people build around the words, and actions that tend to follow.
I think there is a lot of room for people to realistically express and be grateful for a Native influence in their heritage, or the world they live in , without having to try and build a whole unreal and overblown identity around this. If people really do value this aspect of who they are, I would think they would want the people who were given the job of carrying the culture to be those who are most knowledgable , who have the best community support, and who have most deeply retained this culture. I would also think the people who treasure this part of their heritage, would want to make sure the communities that retained their identity and culture have the resources they need to keep the culture going, in the real way, for the next generations.
Going back to a smoothy or fruit juice analogy... If it takes a huge commitment and investment to hang onto the blueberry farm , it would be wrong for someone with no real farm to maintain, to market more easily produced apple and pear juice as blueberry juice, just because a bit of blueberry juice is included.
Honesty in advertising would be that this is delicious pure sparkling apple and pear juice with a hint of blueberry.
There is more than one way to be good.
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Thanks Blackwolf
I appreciate your patience and all your explainations.
Myself, I think the wording can be important because there is stories that people build around the words, and actions that tend to follow.
I think there is a lot of room for people to realistically express and be grateful for a Native influence in their heritage, or the world they live in , without having to try and build a whole unreal and overblown identity around this. If people really do value this aspect of who they are, I would think they would want the people who were given the job of carrying the culture to be those who are most knowledgable , who have the best community support, and who have most deeply retained this culture. I would also think the people who treasure this part of their heritage, would want to make sure the communities that retained their identity and culture have the resources they need to keep the culture going, in the real way, for the next generations.
Going back to a smoothy or fruit juice analogy... If it takes a huge commitment and investment to hang onto the blueberry farm , it would be wrong for someone with no real farm to maintain, to market more easily produced apple and pear juice as blueberry juice, just because a bit of blueberry juice is included.
Honesty in advertising would be that this is delicious pure sparkling apple and pear juice with a hint of blueberry.
There is more than one way to be good.
You seem in this post and a few others, to be dictating that one's identity must revolve around their "racial make up."
Perhaps you are not a mixed person, and so you would think this way, but that does not make it so.
A mixed person should be realistic with themselves and the people around them and recognize that them being mixed being a reality is going to be visually recognized by those around them.
However this does not mean their identities must be "mixed" as well. Historically there have been well known mixed people of low BQ who were very much Indians, and proud and well known members of their nations.
This is especially true of what is what we all know as the "Five Civilized tribes," which are the Cherokee, Chickasaw, Creek, Seminole, and Choctaw.
Those above people gave the world men such as chief John Ross of the Cherokee, the McIntosh family/chiefs of the Creeks (whom my family actually in those days), William Grayson of the Creeks,and the list goes on and on.
I think everyone of them probably did what I say NON NDN looking mixed bloods should do today, and that is use their being mixed for the benefit of NDN people. It is safe to say that men such as John Ross most likely did try this to the best of his abilities at the times he lived in.
Chilly McIntosh whom was a highly mixed Creek Chief actually stated once that "he had no regards for white men." Now maybe we can say he could get away with saying that due to the times he lived in. However in the scheme of what we talk about on this site; it seems we wish to hold things as close to what they were pre Columbus,or NON NDN as possible. That in mind, then we should not be changing the rules in regards to people and how they should identify because this is 2010, and not Chilly's days of the late 1800's.
When I was a younger person, my identity was probably "mixed," but as I have grown older and have really become who I am to be, that identity though is not of a mixed person even if in reality I must always be aware that I am. Most people who really know me are very much aware that I am NDN, and now days I have very few friends that are not NDN. I don't even date or get into relationships with people that are not either.
My European ancestry is not something I have any connection with, and are some far away people on some land I have never been to. I don't feel I need to identify with them in any sort of way other then being realistic and acknowledge I have their blood in my veins as well.
BQ is not a concept I believe in, and I never will. I am not against the concept of enrollment, and nor am I un-supportive of tribal governments. However living in an area where I see people who are darn near full blooded not having any recognition, or it being stripped away by tribal corruption; I do not view recognition as the definition of who is or is not NDN either.
I personally view what the community has to say in regards to who is and who is not NDN above that of any government entity including tribal governments.
I too do not believe in the concept of "being part Indian." You either are Indian or you are not, and to me that is usually determined by the community around you.
Part time Indians never are.
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Personally I would choose number 1 and number 8.
Both of those can possibly make to where people in situations 2 through 7 can be to some degree recognized as NDN for whatever purposes necessary since for the most part they are situations with people having legitimate claims.
When the UKB though Churchill was going to be an asset to them, they sorta did 1 & 8 even though his claims can not be proven.
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post deleted to not derail thread
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Rattlebone
I too do not believe in the concept of "being part Indian." You either are Indian or you are not, and to me that is usually determined by the community around you.
Well apparently you don't feel secure enough in your own identity to be able to allow others to have a discussion about unenrolled people who have some Native heritage being in a different situation, when it comes to their rights and responsibilites, than people who are enrolled in a federally recognized community or are close to 1/2 of Native descent.... . It seems almost every time people try to discuss what may be appropriate boundaries for distant descensents to respect, you feel it is a threat to your own identity, and you get personally defensive or offensive.
Rattlebone
No, I have defended people with legitimate claims. It's my understanding that the word PODIA is just a simple way to say somebody has a great grandma story they can't prove.
So , when there is a conflict , it sounds like you feel anyone with any amount of Native blood who is a member of what they decide is a Native community, has rights that are just as important to defend as continuosly existing indigenous Nations rights to control maintain and benifit from their own resources and culture?
It's my understanding that the word PODIA is just a simple way to say somebody has a great grandma story they can't prove.
According to my rule book ( heh 8)) thats a wannabe .. My definition of a PODIA is people who are less than 1/4 - 1/8 BQ OR more than 2 generations removed from an ancestor who lived in a visible recognized Native community.
But Rattlebone ...a lot of what you are wanting to dispute doesn't even seem to belong in this thread. I guess we have all wandered a bit...
I still think it would be interesting if we could start a thread to discuss what is the characteristics of a Native community that has the right to recognize other people as NDN , and what is just some wannabes or PODIAs getting together and yelling " yes we are !!!"....
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post deleted to not derail thread
« Last Edit: Today at 10:39:31 PM by Rattlebone »
Good decision, Rattle.
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I was wondering how this sort of thing works with First Nations People in Canada. Would Arvel Bird be considered a Native American Musician over here because of his enrolled Metis status in Canada? He claims to be Paiute Heritage but isn't enrolled with them, but he is enrolled with a Metis Nation in Canada.
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Tansi;
Having looked at some of the websites that speak of Arvel Bird being registered as Metis, I believe that he may have paid his money to become a member of the Ontario Metis Aboriginal Association (OMAA), an organization that has no standards other than the ability to pay for membership. We do not have a "Metis Tribe" in Canada.
The Metis Nation of Ontario, an affiliate of the Metis National Council (MNC) has strict criteria, in order to be able to become a member and I do not believe that this extends to people who are not descended from the historic Metis Nation.
The fact that a number of organizations have come about, in order to take advantage of various Rights, recognized by the Canadian Constitution Act 1982, for Metis people, is one of the factors in the decision to develop registries of Metis people, which include proof of geneological connection to the Metis Nation.
We hope, someday, to have a registry of Metis families and people, in order to avoid this type of confusion, and are currently working toward this.
Ric
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Posted by: Ric_Richardson
Insert Quote
Tansi;
Having looked at some of the websites that speak of Arvel Bird being registered as Metis, I believe that he may have paid his money to become a member of the Ontario Metis Aboriginal Association (OMAA), an organization that has no standards other than the ability to pay for membership. We do not have a "Metis Tribe" in Canada.
The Metis Nation of Ontario, an affiliate of the Metis National Council (MNC) has strict criteria, in order to be able to become a member and I do not believe that this extends to people who are not descended from the historic Metis Nation.
The fact that a number of organizations have come about, in order to take advantage of various Rights, recognized by the Canadian Constitution Act 1982, for Metis people, is one of the factors in the decision to develop registries of Metis people, which include proof of geneological connection to the Metis Nation.
We hope, someday, to have a registry of Metis families and people, in order to avoid this type of confusion, and are currently working toward this.
Ric
Thanks for clearing that up Ric. I know when he ( Arvel Bird ) does his performance he claims that he is Southern Paiute but can't enroll, but then he always says he's enrolled Metis of Canada. I would assume that this means his parent or grandparents were also enrolled Metis. If he has no connection to Canada or Metis people I don't know why he would claim this? Other then maybe to make himself look more impressive then he really is?
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Well, we get more and more people all the time who seem to think "Metis" simply means "mixed blood". All sorts of PODIAs, or nons with a rumoured gggg-something calling themselves "Metis". It's a real problem.
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Well, we get more and more people all the time who seem to think "Metis" simply means "mixed blood".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCXkSthGM7Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCXkSthGM7Q)
On this video interview when he's in the canoe, he says " I'm Metis, or mixed blood of Paitue and....." If someone isn't from Canada, I wonder why they would use this term "Metis" as opposed to Mixed Blood?
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Because it sounds more "exotic". :-[ A lot of the clueless Americans who call themselves "Metis" don't even know there's such a thing as a Canadian Metis Nation.
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wondering .. perhaps part of the "clueless american" use of the word Metis comes from confusing it with the word Mestizo .. or perhaps more aptly, mangling the word Mestizo into the word Metis .. i have met entirely clueless people who think they are the same word, think that Mestizo is just spanish for Metis .. .. lol .. ..
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Let me throw my dog into the fight. First, here's a joke: How can you tell a native musician has made it in the music industry? All his backups are white musicians. lol. About 10 years ago I heard a radio interview of well known and respected old timer in the music industry in Canada who was asked, what is the next big music trend in North America? His answer was: Native American music. We've seen the trends go from rock to hip hop, for example, and now people are looking for something new. We are beginning to see a Native American music trend emerging today in the Americas and in parts of Europe. But along with that we are seeing many non-native musicians jumping on the band wagon, so-to-speak, claiming to be Indians (and mainly Cherokee) and exploiting the growing fascination with our Indigenous music.
The Native American music that's getting the most attention in the music Industry is the type that blends traditional Native American instruments and melody with contemporary music like rock and hip hop. The artist or band that does this best and sells the most CDs gets the music awards. That's how the music industry works. But so far, I have not heard any Native American hybrid music that does anything for me ...I'm waiting.
I saw John Two Hawks’ on the You tube that Blackwolf posted. I was impressed by his talent and performance. I think this was due in part to the really great world stage calibre musicians he had backing him up. He did well in blending traditional Native American melody with rock. Still, his music sounds mainstream new age, you know, noble savage-like. Further, I was disappointed and a bit offended that here was a guy who is clearly non-native passing himself off as a native musician garb and all.
However, I saw the video of Arvil Bird that BlackWolf presented in his post. I think he is who he says he is – a mixed blood. Don’t ask me why I just sense that he is. Métis is a French word and in Canada Métis people go by different names, including Mixed Blood, Half Breed, and Country Born. These terms are used interchangeably. In general, Métis can also mean someone born or descended from the union of a European and an Amerindian. There are many Métis in Canada who are not signed up as members of a Métis organization. I agree, it is very difficult to tell or determine who is Métis or Indian nowadays, as some (registered and unregistered alike) look totally white for all intents and purposes.
Seems to me the confusion about who should produce and perform Native American music is further exasperated by the so-called Native American or Aboriginal music awards in North America, while they themselves are at best cheap glitz and glam imitations of the Grammies or the Juno Awards. People are given awards for emulating best country, rock, and hip hop, all genres that are not originally Native American. Pow wow and possibly round dance are exceptions, but they’re relegated to lesser important categories. This is classic colonized behaviour.
Despite all the fake Native musicians and native awards in the music industry, there are real Native American musicians making their way onto the music scene. These musicians are sincere, creative, experienced and well versed in traditional Native American and contemporary music alike, and they are producing music that's true to the Spirit of life and true to themselves as Indigenous Americans. But right now they’re still doing their thing in pow wows and round dances, and in basements and garages. 8)
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flyingdust, your post makes me think of the band in Sherman Alexie's Reservation Blues, the music biz executives, and the ones who eventually become famous as "Indian Musicians".
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flying dust said
However, I saw the video of Arvil Bird that BlackWolf presented in his post. I think he is who he says he is – a mixed blood. Don’t ask me why I just sense that he is. Métis is a French word and in Canada Métis people go by different names, including Mixed Blood, Half Breed, and Country Born. These terms are used interchangeably. In general, Métis can also mean someone born or descended from the union of a European and an Amerindian. There are many Métis in Canada who are not signed up as members of a Métis organization. I agree, it is very difficult to tell or determine who is Métis or Indian nowadays, as some (registered and unregistered alike) look totally white for all intents and purposes.
I can see what you’re saying flying dust. And of course no one really knows his true status as a Métis, but according to Ric_Ricardson, there are so called Métis organizations in Canada that are really no more than heritage clubs. And if he himself is basing this "Métis" identity on his being of Paiute heritage from the United States, and based on that “mixed blood” status he enrolled with a Metis organization in Canada that has no strict standards for enrollment, then he is being misleading. And as Kathryn points out, some use this term because it appears more exotic. And as I pointed out, he POSSIBLY could be using the term to make himself look more impressive. Also, as in the case of the Fake Cherokee Tribes diluting the identity of the authentic ones, I believe if he did join one of these Métis orgs that don't require any kind of proof of descent from authentic Métis people, then that is just diluting the identity of the Métis organizations that are the authentic.
Ric_Ricardson said
Having looked at some of the websites that speak of Arvel Bird being registered as Métis, I believe that he may have paid his money to become a member of the Ontario Métis Aboriginal Association (OMAA), an organization that has no standards other than the ability to pay for membership.
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I just stumbled about John Two-Feather on this websides:
Hey gang! If you don't know me, I'm a regular at Native Web on the boards, and have been for a while. I'm just a simple Lakota dude who Creator-God, Wakantanka, has been very good to. I travel the country to concert halls, colleges, schools, museums, camps and churches- to share with all people the power of diversity, the truth of America's history, and the importance of mending and healing the sacred hoop of the Nations of the world. I am a poet, a musician, a teacher and a stage and film actor.
I also write free-lance for a magazine and try my very best at being a good husband and daddy!
http://user.tninet.se/~tqw855l/fam_gallery/photogallery/two_hawks/twohawks.htm
Born of Native blood, they ride the wind, releasing their songs from the deep places....
http://thebadlanders.com/
http://www.manataka.org/page776.html
Individuals Operating In Arkansas:
The following individuals, who either live in Arkansas or travel to the state for various events, are suspected to either exploit, misappropriate, or otherwise mislead the public on their backgrounds or qualifications. Not included in this list are the numerous officers and officials of the suspect "tribes" and organizations found in the state. It is advised that before you have any dealings or associations with these individuals, check their claims carefully and in depth.
Johnny "Two Hawks" Hill (Eureka Springs, AR area).....
http://www.aihsc.info/ARMO_fraud.htm
Also in addition found a webpage who selling music cd´s in the opinion to provide original made by Native American musicians (but I guess this webside holder from Germany not know all scamster):
http://www.indianermusik.de
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Tansi;
As part of the Metis Nation, which had worked very hard to have the Metis people included in the Canadian Constitution Act, 1982, which recognized Aboriginal Rights for Indian, Inuit and Metis people, I continue to be offended that there are many people who choose to use our name, as a way of establishing some form of "credibility" when they are not recognized by the people of their heritage.
It would be good if Flying Dust would introduce his/her self, as I live next door to the Flying Dust First Nation, outside of Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan, where many of our relatives live. The Metis are well known there and we do work with the First Nation in many areas of mutual concern. Once, the Metis and First Nations walked together, it is time we remember that. Governments have worked hard to separate us and try to have us fight over, mainly funding issues and political areas of responsibility.
My father always told me that Metis people all have relatives on Reserves and we must recognize them, as they do us. I wonder who this Arvel Bird's relatives are, and which Canadian Reserve they live in.
Ric
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I just sent you a private message, ric. I think we know each other. It's true, many Indigenous peoples in Canada are interrelated, whether they're Métis, Status (Treaty), or Non-Status Indian. I'm a Treaty Indian, but half of my relatives are Métis and/or Half Breed (as many of my relatives call themselves because of their English or Scottish ancestry).
New age and plastic shamans can toot their horns all they want about being this or that, but in reality they will never get approval or support from our true Indigenous communities, or from the Spirit, for that matter. Our medicine people, spiritual leaders, and healers have gained their recognition and status directly from their own community first. They attained this status through being petitioned by the Spirit and the people of the community to do certain things or carry out certain responsibilities. My old teacher once told me: "Nobody wants to be the big cheese in the Indian world." They become ceremonial leaders only because the Spirit pursues them to do so and the people of their community recognize that. And they certainly don't do it through grandstanding what they know. No Indigenous person in his right mind would do that. He would be laughed at and humbled pretty fast.
When it comes to passing yourself off as a Native musician...same thing. A true Native Musician gets his music from the Spirit. All the songs our spiritual leaders sing have power and are meant only to be sung in ceremonial settings and nowhere else - certainly not to be recorded and sold in the music industry. If they commercialized that music, it would lose its power and the traditional singer would face disapproval from his community. This is a very strict definition of a Native musician. The point here is, The Spirit and the Indigenous community together is what it takes to make a Native Musician and these two agents are inseparable. So you can't have a Newager come along and say the spirit alone gave him this gift or responsibility, to do whatever he pleases with it.
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Tansi;
Thank you for the PM, Flying Dust! My main point, here, is that the many people who claim to be Metis, in order to create some form of "credibility", have been getting challenged, just like those who claim other Cultures, by the people of those Cultures. The Metis National Council has been working to develop genealogical databases, in order to help with the recognition of Metis families and individuals.
If anyone has talent, they should be very Grateful that they have been Gifted, in this way. I believe that it is disrespectful, at least, for someone to make false claims, solely for the purpose of furthering their opportunities to make money. When someone claims to be a part of a vibrant and living Culture, their claims will be taken to represent those Cultures and may adversely affect the public's view of that Culture, whether it be Cherokee, Metis or any others.
Ekosi
Ric
edited to correct spelling of National, not Nationional.
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When I first heard about Arvel Bird, I came to understand that he was unenrolled Southern Paiute, and enrolled “Métis” from Canada. This led me to believe that he had some kind of official connection to Métis people in Canada. From my understanding of what the term means, it has always been meant specifically for people of Canada who were mixed White (mostly French)/ Native American. It would never have been meant for Mixed Blood American Indians from the United States. Maybe in some of the border areas it might be a little murky, but if someone is claiming to be Métis based on their status as a Paiute from the United States, then that’s misleading. It would be like someone who was from Mexico and of mixed Native Mexican Indian and white/Spaniard heritage claiming to be “Métis” because they were mixed blood. Why would they say that as opposed to the “mestizo” term they use down there? It would also be like mixed blood cherokees from Oklahoma claiming to be “Métis” when they have nothing to do with Canada.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCXkSthGM7Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCXkSthGM7Q)
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And also, as far as I know, he’s not enrolled with any Southern Paiute Tribe or Band. ( He even says this himself). I’ve also heard him say that he could not enroll with any Southern Paiute Tribe because his grandma or great grandma missed the rolls or something like that. So when he mentioned he was Métis, I assumed that he had possibly a mother or father from Canada who was Metis, and that’s why he claims to be “enrolled Métis”.
Here’s his bio. Nothing about Canada.
http://arvelbird.com/bio/ (http://arvelbird.com/bio/)
I’ve heard him say this; “I’m enrolled Métis”. So if he got his Métis status from some heritage organization in Canada that doesn’t require any kind of substantial evidence that he is someone descended form Métis people of Canada , then he (Arvel Bird is being disingenuous and misleading to the public). Even if he actually did live there with a Métis community in Canada and spent some time with comminutes there in Canada, it still would be misleading. From what I could find out the Southern Paiute are form Southern California, Utah, Arizona and Nevada and do not have any connection to Canada from I can see..
He seems to be using the term as some sort of added amenity to his Bio. Or as Kathryn says “because it sounds more exotic”. And I agree with Ric_Richardson that this term should only be used by Métis people from Canada. There should also be a clear distinction between Metis people of Status and just anyone that cliams to be Metis.
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And I agree with Ric_Richardson that this term should only be used by Métis people from Canada. There should also be a clear distinction between Metis people of Status and just anyone that cliams to be Metis.
Agreed here, too. There are lots of white American frauds with no connection to Metis culture, but fantasies of some way-back, maybe-ancestor who may have been NDN, who are misappropriating this term to just mean "mixed blood". We need to spread awareness about what this really means. I tried to wade into the mess that some have made of this term on Wikipedia, but it was overwhelming. I'm not even sure where to start. And there are vicious frauds like Harley Reagan's crew who are also trying to redefine/misappropriate "Metis". Some even try to muddy the waters by nitpicking between "Metis" and “Métis”. :o
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Does anyone know if this guy "Micheal Searching Bear" is Eastern Band Cherokee from NC?
It says he is here.
Tribal Affiliation Eastern Band Cherokee
http://www.nativetelecom.org/michael_searching_bear_0 (http://www.nativetelecom.org/michael_searching_bear_0)
http://www.searchingbearflutes.com/MSB/MSBFrameset-1.htm (http://www.searchingbearflutes.com/MSB/MSBFrameset-1.htm)
Michael is proud to be a member of the Eastern Cherokee tribe & of Powhatan descent....
His interpretaion of the Booger Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63pK1x-eagg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63pK1x-eagg&feature=related)
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Never heard of him before but his name makes him sound fake.
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wolfhawaii said
Never heard of him before but his name makes him sound fake.
Thats what I thought also wolfhawaii. I've never heard of any "Searching Bear" Cherokee families either. But it does clearly state on that link I provided that he is "Eastern Band Cherokee". So if he's not, then he is being misrepresented. He is a Nammy Winner also, but as we know, that doesn't nessasarily mean he is "Cherokee" or "American Indian". There seems to be a lot of non Indian Nammy winners these days. I've asked a few Cherokees about him, and they never heard of him either. I'd like to hear from more Cherokees from NC on this.
Also, he seems to be doing a lot of teachings. And also that Booger Dance video is more then just being about "music" as he is representing a very important part of Cherokee Culture by potraying the Booger Dance. I'm going to see if I can find out anymore.
He teaches and performs in various arenas, from historical societies,
corporate business gatherings, Native arts organizations, festivals, theaters
and colleges to day care facilities, K-12 schools and national events.
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I agree. I checked out the web pages you posted, Blackwolf. Searching Bear (yes, clearly a made-up name) looks fake and he's clearly overstepped the boundaries with the Booger Dance performance to the point of desecrating that ceremony. In one video he and his players were dressed like NDNs while young women performed some kind of pagan ritual dance - clearly new aged stuff. And what's up with the Nammys letting non-NDNs pass themselves off as Native American musicians and win awards? Something's really wrong with this picture. The Nammys is a great venue when real NDNs enter and win. The Nammys originally set out to honour and recognize Native American musicians, and they still do. But their criterion for membership needs to require more proof of Native American authenticity, because the phonies are slipping through. It's so easy to pass yourself off as a Native musician as long as the only requirement to become a member is to declare either "Tribal Membership or Affiliation". But then again, in a Nammys page of who's who they're proud to acknowledge famous musicians as having Native blood like Willie Nelson (Cherokee), Elvis Presley (Cherokee), Billy Ray Cyrus...and therefore Miley, too (Cherokee), Rita Coolidge (Cherokee), and Crystal Gayle (Cherokee)...hey how come they're all Cherokee and not Cree Like me? 8)
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But then again, in a Nammys page of who's who they're proud to acknowledge famous musicians as having Native blood like Willie Nelson (Cherokee), Elvis Presley (Cherokee), Billy Ray Cyrus...and therefore Miley, too (Cherokee), Rita Coolidge (Cherokee), and Crystal Gayle (Cherokee)...hey how come they're all Cherokee and not Cree Like me? 8)
Because Nashville is in Tennesee.
Link Wray was of Shawnee descent; Shania Twain of Ojibwe.
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Because Nashville is in Tennesee.
Link Wray was of Shawnee descent; Shania Twain of Ojibwe.
None of the above mentioned are from Nashville. Willie Nelson is from Texas, Elvis was from Memphis, Billy Ray Cyrus from Flatwoods, Kentucky, Rita Coolidge from Lafayette, and Crystal Gayle from Paintsville (KY). Shania Twain is from Canada and she has never claimed to have Native blood. She was raised in a First Nation community because her step-father was Ojibwe.
The point here is none of the above musicians are considered frauds in the context of this thread. None of them have made their claim to fame under the false pretences of being Native American musicians and as imposters of Native American music traditions.
Whether they really are of Cherokee descent is questionable at best. It’s trendy for many white musicians to claim Cherokee or Apache descent in the American music industry that draws on the mystique of American Indians in a kind of ambivalent way. The Nammys of course is drawing on this popular and noble imagery of Indians to raise its own image in the music industry. Is this a harmless trend? I wouldn’t call it fraudulent misrepresentation. It’s more like a white lie.
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Rita Coolidge has documented Cherokee ancestry and is a member of the group Walela, along with her sister and niece. Crystal Gayle, sister of Loretta Lynn also has documented Chrokee ancestry. However, Crystal Gayle and Loretta Lynn just claim the nacestry, not that they are Cherokee. Willie Nelson was married to a Cherokee woman. I haven't heard him claim to be Cherokee. Have no idea of the ancestry of the others.
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Willie Nelson was married to a Cherokee woman. I haven't heard him claim to be Cherokee.
I have heard him claim to be Indian in an interview, and I believe he said he was Cherokee. When I as GON a few years ago, they were even letting the audience know that he was Indian on some electric billboard about 4 years ago or so. His name was mentioned with others including Jimi Hendrix whom also claimed to be Cherokee.
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Does anyone know if this guy "Micheal Searching Bear" is Eastern Band Cherokee from NC?
It says he is here.
Tribal Affiliation Eastern Band Cherokee
Sorry to have been absent for a while. Had a couple of medical issues to tend to.
I don't by any means work with all the various artists who travel out of Quallah but I do run across quite a few and hear of many others. This guy does not ring a bell with me.
nvwatohiyadv
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Can anyone tell me why "Cherokee" flutists always aim their flutes up in the air like they are duck hunting? Is that a "real" Cherokee thing? LOL If Michael is Cherokee NDN, the poor guy didn't get many of the features of his NDN ancestors. But hey, I seen me a lotta fair skinned skins who were the real deal, so who knows? I got a good friend who is E.B. Cherokee, I'll ask her and see what she can find out. Until then, I'm gonna go see if I can shoot me a duck with a flute...................
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Willie Nelson was married to a Cherokee woman. I haven't heard him claim to be Cherokee.
I have heard him claim to be Indian in an interview, and I believe he said he was Cherokee. When I as GON a few years ago, they were even letting the audience know that he was Indian on some electric billboard about 4 years ago or so. His name was mentioned with others including Jimi Hendrix whom also claimed to be Cherokee.
According to this, Hendrix believed his grandmother was full blooded Cherokee:
http://www.classicbands.com/hendrix.html
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OdawaNDN, it isn't a Cherokee thing but a flutist thing. ;)
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Thanks for the laugh, UW & Odawa :)
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There is a guy who claims to be Mohawk and when challenged will then claim to be an "Indian in my heart"
He is teaching drum making and cerimonies. As well as teaching about traditions and culture at various schools in and aroung Ottawa, Ontario.
http://www.davidfinkledrums.com
http://www.davidfinkledrums.com/workshop.php
http://www.myspace.com/davidfinkleflute
http://www.ottawasoundhealingconference.com/presenters/david-finkle/
He is not a Mohawk and has no connection to any reservation or long house.
He is just a white guy who is making money off of the Aboriginal Culture.
A favorite in the AFN and Ottawa crowd.
He has had a string of Aboriginal spouses he uses for thier treaty card numbers to gain access to Pow Wows to sell his wares.
He uses his daughter who is Aboriginal through her mothers side, to gain access to events as well.
http://www.davidfinkledrums.com/artist_profile.php?id=20
And now working with a Metis woman they secured funding from the government to start a company that teaches Aboriginal knowledge.
http://aboriginalresources.ca/music/
Check him out on Facebook. And then ask him about his Mohawk roots! No one from Tyendinaga knows him except when he lived there with his daughters Mom.
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Elvis Presley was of Cherokee ancestry:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000062/bio
Sad what happened when he wanted to claim it then.
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This guys looks highly suspect to me.
Danuwa analihi Adonvdo/ Cherokee Musician and Flute Player
http://www.danuwa.com/index.html (http://www.danuwa.com/index.html)
http://www.danuwa.com/FluteMusic2.html (http://www.danuwa.com/FluteMusic2.html)
http://nativedigest.com/dananado.html (http://nativedigest.com/dananado.html)
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He doesn't claim to be Cherokee, he claims his mother was Eno. His wife, who claims Cherokee descent, has been studying Cherokee language since 2007, and gave him his (very long) name. Not sure why he was wearing the plains style warbonnet and buckskins in some of the photos, lots of white folks expect that i guess, probably sells more cds that way.
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He doesn't claim to be Cherokee, he claims his mother was Eno. His wife, who claims Cherokee descent, has been studying Cherokee language since 2007, and gave him his (very long) name. Not sure why he was wearing the plains style warbonnet and buckskins in some of the photos, lots of white folks expect that i guess, probably sells more cds that way.
He ( Richard ) was adopted and later learned of his real mother's heritage of Eno (Lakota).
I guess thats why he's wearing the War Bonnet, because he claims to be of Lakota Heritage through his mother. Or is it Eno? Aren't the Eno people from the NC area?
Debbie was born in Fort Myers, FL. She was adopted & later learned of her tsalagi (Cherokee) heritage. Her adopted mother had told her that her real mother had named her Little Spirit Dove (Adonvdo Woya Usti in tsalagi). Woya then begin to research her roots. She began to learn her language, her culture, and ways. She learned she had a brother a year older than her. Last December 2008 she located him after all those years searching for him. She got in contact with him. She began to learn of her heritage, her Grandfather and father was Cherokee, and her mother was half Cherokee. This was closure for her, for she finally had names and info on who she was. She always had felt out of place and different growing up. She had darker skin than the kids in school and was always called half breed and squaw by the other kids. She loved the woods and was always outside, barefooted & playing with the wildlife & nature. She talked with the animals and understood their ways. It was as natural as breathing to her.
So their actually both claiming American Indian Heritage. So how do we distinguish between the Real Native musicians and the phonies?
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CODY SUNBEAR BLACKBIRD
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Ok i have to ask what is Eno???
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Eno is/was a small group from the Piedmont of North Carolina who spoke a Souian language and banded together with other small groups after being pushed from their lands by white settlement. I don't have my reference on North Carolina tribes handy but I think anthropologists have considered the Eno extinct as a tribal entity for a long time.
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never heard of them of course who are----oh wait im lakota
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CODY SUNBEAR BLACKBIRD
Could you explain that, go into more detail?
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Would like to hear more on Cody Sunbird Blackbird too.
Cody has lived with native traditions all of his life. Born as Eastern Band Cherokee, Cody's family moved far north when he was still very young. Instead of the mountain, valleys and streams of his Cherokee ancestry, Cody grew up in Alaska and later moved to South Dakota.
While in South Dakota he came to know several members of the Sioux Nation and over time learned their traditions. That is why when Cody sings his words are Lakota and not Cherokee.
Cody has performed as part of the featured entertainment quite literally around the globe. He has performed at powwows, special cultural events and in concert across the USA and across both the International Date Line and the Equator. This year he completed a tour that stretch from Alaska to Florida and then flew off to Australia on a sponsored, expense paid two month tour.
http://seriosound.com/OurArtists.aspx (http://seriosound.com/OurArtists.aspx)
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How can you have a "Native American Flute Festival" without any Native Americans?
Potomac Native American Flute Festival: http://www.potomacflutefestival.org/?page=performers
(http://www.potomacflutefestival.org/pages/FrankOpenMic.jpg)
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I am 8 years too late to this party....
Anyways i saw the booger dance video and read all the comments of people thinking it was real
I looked him up and he is selling hokey overpriced flutes
I was gonna make thread asking about him but ended up doing a search here first.....then found this thread
We do need a section on fake artists and musicians