NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: debbieredbear on January 30, 2006, 09:18:31 pm

Title: Scarlet Kinney & The Standing Bear Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: debbieredbear on January 30, 2006, 09:18:31 pm
http://www.thestandingbear.com/

All of the Center’s teachings are based upon an understanding of the Medicine Wheel as a living mandala for spiritual and personal growth.  At the Center, you’ll learn to imaginally enter and explore this incredible living mandala, and to seek guidance and teachings from the archetypal energies, such as Animal Spirits, Upper World Teachers, and Goddesses who reside there.

Some Benefits of Shamanic Practices
for Women

You can achieve self-mastery through disciplined practices

Your self-confidence and self-esteem may be enhanced

You can access and integrate Goddess archetypes

Your relationship with the Earth will grow and evolve

You can reclaim your ancient, Feminine, Earth wisdom

Your sense of “oneness??? with Earth and all women will deepen

Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: walking-soft on January 31, 2006, 05:24:09 am
 Will it ever cease?? Be sure to bring your wallet and or visa card. I'm sure besides the "workshop" fees there will be plenty to buy to help you on all these "journeys"!!!!
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Scarlet Kinney on March 22, 2006, 12:59:57 am
TO DEBBIE RED BEAR, WALKING SOFT, AND ANYBODY ELSE:

I am the founder and director of The Standing Bear Center for Shamanic Studies in Surry, Maine.

I just discovered that you have taken it upon yourselves to judge me as fraudulent, and to try to put me out of business by maligning me on this site. As far as I can discern, your "research" about me consists solely of reading the home page on my web site.

Here is my response:

First:

You have reproduced content from my web site's home page on your site. All material on my site is copyright protected. You do not have my permission to reproduce it in any way whatsoever. Get this material off your site immediately, as you are infringing on my copyright.

Second:

Who are you to judge me, or what I do?

You do not know me. You have never met me. You do not know what I have endured physically, emotionally, socially, OR financially as I have struggled as a white woman to honor a traumatic but genuine shamanic initiation experience that almost killed me and left me scarred for life.

Until you have presented yourself at my door and respectfully asked to hear my story; until you have listened to it respectfully; until you have sat in council with me, any opinion you may have of me is necessarily invalid as it is not based upon any realistic knowledge or experience regarding who I am, or why I do what I do. ?

I extend a very warm invitation to any and all of you to personally contact and/or visit me for this purpose instead of hiding behind this web site and sniping at me.

Third:

You are only broadcasting your ignorance of historical and cultural realities when you make remarks indicating that only Native American Indians have a right to practice or teach Native American Spirituality. Every culture in the history of humanity has produced shamans and healers, or medicine people, and many non tribal people still carry that knowlege in their genes.

I do not claim to be Native American. I do not advertise myself as Native American. I am not a medicine person in the Native American sense, and I do not promote myself as such.

I am a white woman who underwent a genuine shamanic initiation experience, and I am the keeper of certain teachings of the Bear Spirit Clan that it seems I carried in my genetic memory. The traumatic shock of my initiation somehow opened those memories. (I was horribly burned in a propane explosion and fire, and while out of body was asked by several members of the Bear Spirit Clan to return to the body and share these teachings with others.) I agreed, and am doing so.

My authority to teach doesn't come from you or anybody else. It comes directly from Standing Bear, Chief of the Bear Spirit Clan.

Finally:

You also publish your ignorance for all to see with all of your flap about how wrong it is for spiritual teachers to be paid for their time and efforts. Every priest, minister, psychologist, and yes, medicine person, including the Pope and the Dalai Lama, is financially supported in one way or another by those she/he serves, and this has also been true down through history.

Following my initiation, I was fortunate enough to have found a Mohawk shaman woman [editorial comment from admin: I'm sure the Mohawk Nation will be very surprised to learn that they are related to a "shaman woman"!] with whom I studied for three years. Had it not been for her, I would very likely have lost my mind because of the intensity of the shamanic visionary states into which I was thrust by the shock of my initiation. As there was nobody in my own culture who knew how to help me, I will be eternally grateful to her for having done so.

While I studied with her, I witnessed several Native Americans verbally and psychically assault her in a public setting, because she was teaching Native American ways to white women. At that time I didn't know how to defend her. I do now, and I most certainly would.
Yes, she charged for her teaching and guidance, and I was pleased to be able to pay her. I charge for my teaching and guidance as well. It's an ethical stance. Those who come to me for help know precisely what they will receive from me in return for what they have paid. This keeps the exchange clean and clear, and limits the potential for unbalanced or unrealistic expectations for all concerned.

Yes, much of what you're trying to do is worthy and needed. There is indeed a lot of hoo haw, not to mention severe abuse of every kind, going on out there.

But nobody is served well by malicious attempts to defame or financially ruin another person. It hurts the intended victim, but of equal importance is that it hurts the perpetrator.
At this point, and until you have proven otherwise to me, I must consider you and your site to be perpetrators of your own brand of abuse, which places you on a level with those you accuse.

I can help you heal from this imbalance, but I suppose you wouldn't trust a white woman to do so.

Yes, you're darn right. I am TICKED! I have had a bellyful of this kind of nonsense.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: PLH on March 22, 2006, 03:48:26 am
Ok let me see if I understand this correctly. Please correct any misunderstanding I may have. You are white, not NDN. You refer to a Medicine Wheel, that is a white concept?
Sorry I have to re-word rather than steal a quote from you here: You are the keeper of certain teachings of the Bear Spirit Clan that it "seems" you carried in your genetic memory? How do you "seem" to carry anything in your genetic memory?

Perhaps you could concentrate on your own imbalance.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Le Weaponnier on March 22, 2006, 04:07:30 am
QUOTE:
"Every culture in the history of humanity has produced shamans and healers, or medicine people, and many non tribal people still carry that knowlege in their genes. "

"I am a white woman who underwent a genuine shamanic initiation experience, and I am the keeper of certain teachings of the Bear Spirit Clan that it seems I carried in my genetic memory. "



Oh, this one's just so easy.

Arguments against Genetic Memory:
1.  Loss of innocence. Children would be born with previous memories of past personalities.

2.  If genetic memory was a valid concept, each new experience would require a modification of every single genetic structure in everyone of a person's cells. Even if this was somehow feasible, the number of changes would lead to genetic mutations on a huge level.

3.  There has been no method documented for encoding such memories into genetic structure.

4.  Genes do not change from birth to death, with the exception of mutations as in cancers etc. Else, DNA testing would be invalidated.

On Wilkipedia:
"Racial memory is at present regarded by most scientists as new-age pseudoscience."


"Genetic memory is a device used in science fiction but it is not scientifically proven to occur in human beings."


I like that phrase "new-age psuedoscience".
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: raven on March 22, 2006, 09:00:06 am
Scarlet,
If I may, without sounding like I am personally attacking you.
The point here is, making money on teachings. Did the elder charge you money what she taught you?
I will not take away what happened to you . Yes it was a terrible experience you went through, however I myself know first hand the physical and emotional pain of being burned. I did not have any animal spirits come to me when it happened.  Did it change me? You bet.
WalkingSoft knows me on a personal level. What I did with my experience is not start a web site as yours. Instead I did volunteer work at the burn units up in Chicago. Went in to talk to people that were going through the same kind of pain.
I grew up with Native grandparents, their teachings did help me through my difficult times. If anything, it taught me compassion.
My husband has sundanced for many years, I have seen more people come through my door than most therapist. Yet never has a dollar ever been made from his sweats or the endless hours of listening to people's problems.
Maybe what you went through was to help people, but it is the way that you are going about it that is not right.  You are thinking with a white mind. I am not saying that in a racist way, what I am saying is go back to square one, stand back and see what you are doing. If you need to make a living don't use native teachings as your tool to do so.
Now that I have shared more personal info than what I cared to, I will get back to my cup of coffee. And if you would like to discuss your personal experience with me, I will be more than happy to listen, and not ask for a dime.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: raven on March 22, 2006, 09:05:40 am
Also, the elder that charged you for her teachings, well that was your first mistake right there. And perhaps she was attacked not because she was teaching a white woman, maybe because she was charging money. That is pretty offensive in my world.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on March 22, 2006, 05:16:06 pm
I'm glad to see the large number of hits on this thread. Apparently her followers or employees are following this with intense interest. Or perhaps it's disillusioned former followers who are following this so closely?

More on our deluded exploiter and fraud Ms. Scarlet Kinney, who apparently is such a super-spirchul type she monitors the web to shut down critics and tosses out legal threats within a few hours of any criticism posted.

She's apparently a mix-and-match shame-on type,  with some devotion to a Greek goddess of memory. If there's any defense for the exploitation she does, it's likely in that traumatic event which she uses in a very crass way as a license to exploit.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:oumvhWhkvfAJ:www.mythicartist.org/artists/work/sk_mnemosyne.htm+%22scarlet+kinney&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
"My cousin Gen is dead now. She has been dead these many years. She died at 45, along with her mother, my Auntie Eleanor, in a fire in the Cambridge house they shared, on the first anniversary of the fire in my home in coastal Downeast Maine, which, in spite of being horribly burned, I survived.
I had two sisters and Gen had three, but throughout the years of our youth, before our lives and our loves led us down very different paths, we shared a bond of understanding about the world in which we lived together for eight weeks every summer that we both agreed made us much more than sisters in flesh; it made us sisters in spirit....
Daily during our weeks of freedom from the routine constraints of school and catechism, Gen and I headed for the deep woods....It was then that we entered into a parallel world that existed either below or above the one we had left behind....
This experience led me to conduct shamanic research at The Standing Bear Center for Shamanic Studies, which I founded in 1994, on the possible relationship between ancient, pre-patriarchal Goddess archetypes and the contemporary shamanic Goddess archetypes I work with and teach at the Center. The results of that research have been fascinating, and will be included in a shamanic teaching book, which is in process."

She reminds me of the the young kid who called himself a "shaman" and founded his own "tribe" who spammed this board for weeks. While their desire for some kind of meaning is understandable. the way they go about is as wrong as can be.

Understand this, Scarlet. All your bluster and self righteous ignorance does not make what you do any less wrong.

Your ingorance extends not just to the most basic knowledge of Native and tribal cultures. It also includes a lack of knowledge of copyright laws and the Fair Use Act.

Not to mention basic English. "Judge" is a not a bad word. It means using your brain to think.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on March 22, 2006, 05:28:21 pm
More on Ms. Kinney. A photo of her on an ad for her faux-feminist shame-on teachings. "Cute" necklace.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:vN8tdOa6fs4J:waldo.villagesoup.com/community/story.cfm%3FstoryID%3D67090+%22scarlet+kinney&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

A bio
http://www.mythicjourneys.org/guests_kinneys.php
"Scarlet Kinney of the Standing Bear Center for Shamanic Studies, is an artist, writer and mythologist. She earned her BA in studio art at Goddard College, Plainfield, VT, and her MA in Mythological Studies with an Emphasis on Depth Psychology at Pacifica Graduate Institute, Carpinteria, CA. Scarlet studied the women's shamanic ways of the Iroquois Nation with a Mohawk shaman woman for three years, and founded The Standing Bear Center for Shamanic Studies in 1994. The Center offers shamanic workshops, individual shamanic counseling, and an apprentice training program leading to certification as a Shamanic Counselor"

Anyone else think that her alleged Mohawk shamaness was actually Penny McKelvey, the Scot who calls herself "Oshinnah Fastwolf"?

Most of the sites out there on her are about her painting, though most of them are down now. I'd say, like our earlier "shaman" leading his own would be "tribe", she could be as scarred as he was, and she could be both victim and victimizer, as he was.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: lynxwoman on March 23, 2006, 03:56:12 am
O.K., this is reverse racism. My teachers taught me that everybody is on an equal shamanic plane; it's about respect; it's about ethics; and it's about honoring a heritage, a way of being, and a way of seeing. Native cultures are dying all over the United States; preservation, my friends.

If a bald eagle showed up at your door and his head was painted black, would you say he was not a bald eagle?

Educated Indian, I think you should contact Scarlet for counsel. My great grand-mother was a Cherokee medicine woman; true shamanic initiation is just that: you don't question it, nor can you predict where it may land. And how dare you talk to a female elder that way!

"Truth first is ridiculed, then violently opposed, then accepted as being self-evident." Shopenhauer

To really obtain a humane outlook and true balance I think you need to pay Scarlet double for your session.

I hope you see the error of your ways and I really hope that you someday obtain Center.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on March 23, 2006, 08:27:28 am
Quote
O.K., this is reverse racism....it's about respect; it's about ethics; and it's about honoring a heritage, a way of being, and a way of seeing.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/bwts/rofl.gif)

If I was Indian, I wouldn't feel honoured by white people peddling cheesy 'noble savage' stereotypes in order to give their lives meaning. And I'd be enraged if when I protest, someone with a silly fake name accuses me of racism.

Quote
Native cultures are dying all over the United States; preservation, my friends.


Newagers and 'shamans' are helping to destroy native cultures, using their white privilege to displace them with salable counterfeits. Your preaching to native people about their own cultures is a perfect example of the despicable arrogance of newagers.

Quote
I hope you see the error of your ways and I really hope that you someday obtain Center.


Damn, where's Mibby when we need him?
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Mo on March 23, 2006, 01:02:43 pm
maybe you THINKING native cultures are dying is wishful thinking. then you can exploit us all the more without all this nasty TRUTH and being exposed for who and what you really are...frauds.  set up a catholic church or temple and sell mass or barmitsvahs and see how honored catholics or jews will be about what you do. with all the things we need permission for i'll be damned if i will ask permission from you to be offended by your actions. you are exploiters plain and simple and no matter how you try to justify what you are doing it does not change that fact.  and yes i am offended by your assertion that native cultures are dying out. we are fighting to keep our culture from people like you who would turn it into a product to be sold. hands off! nice touch tho....was your grandmother a princess too?
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: raven on March 23, 2006, 03:05:08 pm
Lynxwoman,  Correct me if I am wrong, "your teachers, taught you everyone is equal on a shamanic plane?"  In other words, my spirituality is the same as ex: people that murder and rape?
So what you are saying here is that I am wasting my time trying to do good for the people and that if I chose the road of doing bad that would be balance of shamanic plane?
Do you honestly believe that?  Just because your gg-grandmother may have had some "insight" does not make a shaman, nor you.
And so with what you say is that you are taking classes to be a shaman? What is wrong with this picture? If you say that it is within all of us, then why do you need to be taught that? Isn't already within you? You shouldn't need someone else to teach you that.
And just so you know MY Culture is very much alive, thank you. Every morning I wake up it is still here, hasn't gone anywhere. So I don't know who is teaching that to you, but either the teacher is wrong or the student is.
Well if your g-g grandmother was Cherokee that would make you ummm help me with my math 1/32? I hope you don't prick your finger and bleed your Cherokee blood out.  Now that would be a dying culture in itself.
Now if you want to get into a debate over shamanism let me know. I can go down that road without the sarcasm.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on March 23, 2006, 03:14:13 pm
"this is reverse racism."

Sorry "lynx", but no one Native would buy that claim for a second, esp not from someone like you who shows herself to be quite racist in her post in so many ways.

1) You have a phony "Indian name", one that's pretty ridiculous. Are there even lynxes in North America?
2) You hauled out the mythical "Cheroke great grandmother" claim. Most whites claiming that are actually trying to hide a Black ancestor in the family tree.
Obviously you know extremely little about your alleged ancestry. Cherokees don't have "shamans".
Actual Cherokees would not say "I had a Cherokee grandmother, great grandmother" etc. (For one thing, great grandparents are generally also called grandparents.)
They would say "I AM Cherokee." So for you, your alleged ancestry is just an excuse for your white racism.
3) The "reverse racism" ploy is itself most widely used by white racists trying to make excuses for their racism. There is no such thing, there is only plain old racism.
4) Your claim that WE are supposedly "dying out" is one of the oldest claims of white racists.
(Notice that YOU do not include yourself among the "we" of Native people.)
Natives are in no danger of dying out anywhere, (except perhaps Brazil) and have not been for over 90 years. There are 60 million Native people worldwide, GROWING in numbers.
Native cultures are not in any danger of dying out, and the clearest sign of that is the way we are fighting back against exploiters like YOURSELF and Scarlet.

"My teachers taught me that everybody is on an equal shamanic plane"

ROFL!
What the heck is that? I doubt you know yourself.

"it's about respect; it's about ethics; and it's about honoring a heritage"

Right, and you and Scarlet show no sign whatsoever of doing those things yourself. So it's laughable you try to lecture us about it.

"If a bald eagle showed up at your door and his head was painted black, would you say he was not a bald eagle?"

I'd wonder what idiot twinkie had tortured the poor creature just to make a point, actually.
 
"I think you should contact Scarlet for counsel."

ROFL!
Why the heck would I do that? She seems like a very foolish elderly white woman who is so confused by the trauma she went through she does not realize the harm she is doing with her lies and exploitation.

"true shamanic initiation is just that: you don't question it"

Nothing about her is "true". It's about as real as a three dollar bill. By her own admission, she made everything up herself.

"how dare you talk to a female elder that way!"

She's no elder. She is just old...and confused.

And the way that I talked to her was, in fact, sympathetic to what she's gone through.

"I think you need to pay Scarlet double for your session."

Ah, your true agenda is revealed. Like Scarlet herself admitted, it's all about money for her. She's scared she will lose her meal ticket.

"I really hope that you someday obtain Center."

ROFL!
I really should thank you for being so entertaining.

And I hope someday you obtain our Nuage to Plain English Dictionary.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: frederica on March 23, 2006, 03:33:52 pm
First, we never had shamans. Second, the culture is not dying, but it is being corrupted by Nuagers incorportating AI  beliefs into Nuage practices. Stories and philosophy are being rewritten to fit Nuage beliefs. Then, it is presented to the general public as Pan-Indianism.  This act in itself does more harm than good. frederica
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: debbieredbear on March 23, 2006, 08:08:22 pm
I have a suggestion for backgroundd music for their website after reading "lynxwoman" (and yes, Al, we have Lynxes up here on the Olympic Peninsula but I bet LW would not wish to meet one). I can't remember the name of the group but it starts out: "Money money money MONNNEEEY!" LOL! And fredrica beat me to the part about Cherokees not having shamans. As far as I know, Cherokees aren't from Siberia.;) And LW is doing the classic scream about a person being an elder. Yeah, with a small "e". An Elder should be respected. Scartlet is an elder, or as some say, an older. And another thing, if she really was what she says she is, I doubt she would have come unglued like she did, and raged at us. And then sent her toady after us. A snotty white woman who uses the reverse racism card. Missy, you would not know racism if it bit you in the ass. And you wouldn't survive in brown skin because then you would have to deal with people like yourself: arrogant and rude. You may or may not have a gggrandmother who was a Cherokee Princess. But you are not Cherokee. Not because of lack of blood, but because you think like a white woman. And that's the difference.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Slow_Thunder on March 23, 2006, 08:09:27 pm
TO PLH:

You wrote:

Ok let me see if I understand this correctly. Please correct any misunderstanding I may have. You are white, not NDN.

****A wonderful Maliseet spiritual elder helped me to understand something about myself that I'll pass on to you. I confided in her concerning my difficulty in accepting what happened to me, and what I'm now doing, as I was raised Irish Catholic. She told me that it wasn't the color of my skin that counted, it was what was in my heart, and how I walked on Mother Earth.and Another friend, a Passamaquoddy, said over and over to me: "Just because you're red, doesn't mean you're red", ? until I understood her point_ that just because I'm white doesn't mean I'm not red in my heart. These were very healing experiences for me. There are stories of NDN ancestry in my family. I am currently researching that, but as I have not yet been able to prove it, I would never make any claims about it. However, I have often wondered whether or not what happened to me was the result of NDN genetic memory...I was raised Catholic, and would have expected angels to appear to me, or the Virgin Mother, etc., but it was Bear Spirits who prevented my death, returned me to the body, healed me, and asked me to share certain teachings with others. That's certainly not a Catholic experience, is it?

You refer to a Medicine Wheel, that is a white concept?
****I don't believe I have ever posited that the Medicine Wheel is a white concept, and if I have, shame on me, because of course it's not, and I don't understand it as such. But because of my mythological and depth psychology studies, I was able to recognize the Native American Medicine Wheel as a sacred mandala. To the best of my knowledge, it is the only sacred mandala to have arisen from the cultures of this land, this geography. My culture is largely ignorant of this fact, as well as exhibiting a profound ignorance of the deep, sophistated and complex philosophy of Native American psychology. In addition, there is still a great deal of racist prejudice and insulting stereotyping directed at Native peoples in this country. Part of what I'm trying to accomplish is to counter such ignorance by exploring the Medicine Wheel in terms that white culture can grasp.

Sorry I have to re-word rather than steal a quote from you here: You are the keeper of certain teachings of the Bear Spirit Clan that it "seems" you carried in your genetic memory? How do you "seem" to carry anything in your genetic memory?
****I'm a North woman. I possess very ? few diplomatic skills. I didn't want to assertively state that I AM the keeper of certain teachings of the Bear Spirit Clan that I carried in genetic memory, although I am, and I do, and the trauma of my initiation somehow opened up that incredible genetic capsule and made its content available for me.
?
Perhaps you could concentrate on your own imbalance.
****It's a long journey to the Center, isn't it?
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Slow_Thunder on March 23, 2006, 08:54:23 pm
Hello, everybody. It's "Scarlet the Unglued Older", again. Very funny. Thanks for providing me with a good belly laugh. I do think I may keep the title, as it certainly does describe me rather well at times.
I wish I had time to respond to each individual posting, but as I'm dealing with two very sick family members, I'm a little pushed for time.
I'll try to get back to each of you as soon as I can, because I think the discussion we've begun, however difficult it seems to be at present, is a tremendously positive thing, and one that is long overdue. It's wonderful that so many people are taking part in it.
One of the ways of beginning a healing process consists of using language to rile everybody up about a very painful situation, so that the true feelings of all involved begin to be expressed. It's one of the techniques I use, and as you can see, it's been very effective in this instance.
The kind of fear, anger, racist thinking, etc. that my words aroused in so many of you is merely the tip of the iceberg.
I'm not only talking here about what's going on on this site right now. I'm talking about the shared history of almost every person walking on this land today, whatever their ancestry or cultural heritage may be.
We are all the daughters and sons of our Mother the Earth. What we are suffering from, and what our ancestors suffered from, is patriarchy, a grotesque inflation of the powers of the Sky gods by white male culture.
We must not accuse and blame one another in these times, because doing so reflects a patriarchal influence intended to divide people of heart from one another so that patriarchy can be perpetuated. Ideally, we will talk together, cry together, even rage together, and in the end, heal ourselves and one another.
This is what I invite each and every person involved in this tempestuous debate to join me in doing. Bless and keep you all.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Slow_Thunder on March 23, 2006, 10:26:26 pm
TO EDUCATED INDIAN:
While your arguments regarding the science of genetics are erudite and no doubt correct from a white male dominated patriarchal culture's scientific perspective, they are not only off the wall when it comes to understanding women's ways, they are just plain misguided.
Until you back up a little, take a deep breath, and offer me an apology for this appalling behavior, and make some kind of amends, I will not respond to or read another word you may say on this site.
Shame on you for disrespecting women and for using the horrible suffering of two human beings as a weapon to deliver malice. Your behavior is not only unconscionable, it's unforgivable.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on March 23, 2006, 10:42:58 pm
Quote
One of the ways of beginning a healing process consists of using language to rile everybody up about a very painful situation, so that the true feelings of all involved begin to be expressed. It's one of the techniques I use, and as you can see, it's been very effective in this instance.


That wasn't a technique. You threw a tantrum and now realise how childish you look. What typical newager arrogance that you believe we need healing, and that you're going to heal us. Well, they say laughter is the best medicine.

Quote
The kind of fear, anger, racist thinking, etc. that my words aroused in so many of you is merely the tip of the iceberg.


Get over yourself. We've already dealt with the daft accusations of racism and you forgot to mention the gales of mirth your posts also arouse.

Quote
It was from a landscape such as the one Captain Wynne describes that my ancestors fled County Clare for America. I cannot know of that time directly, from personal experience.


No, it was 160 years ago!

Quote
I do, however, know of it indirectly, as a closely held family secret, as something.....[that] ... was nevertheless transmitted from generation to generation by way of behaviors, customs, and the role food and the preparation of food played in the fabric of my family's existence in America, so far from the green isle my ancestors once called home.


Most isles are green. You know what they call people like you in Ireland? "Plastic Paddies" (http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/00000006DCD7.htm). Look: he could be writing about you!

Quote
Irish immigrants sometimes faced hostility and discrimination in the nations they moved to - which only served to make their Irishness a more deeply-held thing. Irishness, and all that it entailed, became their heart in a heartless world, if you like.

But what the second, third, fourth, infinite-and-beyond generations of Irish are doing today is a different story. They are not excluded from society, except in their own fertile imaginations [...] Like angst-ridden teenagers, they just 'wanna be different!'. And like tantrum-throwing teenagers, they want you to 'recognise my difference!!'


What may or may not have happened to some of your ancestors two centuries ago, before Irish people were regarded as white, doesn't take away the white privilege you benefit from today.

Quote
We are a nation of people carrying the hidden wounds of generational trauma within our psyches, often unspoken, unrecognized, yet powerfully influencing the ways in which we weave the fabric of our lives today.


Pretending you're as oppressed as, say, teenagers from Red Lake, is unbelievably crass.

Quote
We are all the daughters and sons of our Mother the Earth. What we are suffering from, and what our ancestors suffered from, is patriarchy, a grotesque inflation of the powers of the Sky gods by white male culture.


I think you're suffering from a grotesquely inflated ego. Please don't make us suffer from it any more.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Slow_Thunder on March 23, 2006, 11:07:35 pm
TO RAVEN:
I've privately expressed my deep appreciation of your open-mindedness and balanced comments on this site, but I also want to do it publicly. I am very grateful that your voice is being heard, and honored to have met you, even under such difficult circumstances. Thank you.

I also want to respond to a couple of things you say in your commentary on this site.

You wrote;

The point here is, making money on teachings. Did the elder charge you money what she taught you?

****I'll answer this one privately, for reasons I've posted elsewhere.

You wrote:

I will not take away what happened to you . Yes it was a terrible experience you went through, however I myself know first hand the physical and emotional pain of being burned. I did not have any animal spirits come to me when it happened. ? Did it change me? You bet.
WalkingSoft knows me on a personal level. What I did with my experience is not start a web site as yours. Instead I did volunteer work at the burn units up in Chicago. Went in to talk to people that were going through the same kind of pain.

****I may never know why five bear spirits came to me as I was about to die in the fire, but they did. My efforts to use what happened to me to help others took a different from than yours did.

You also wrote:

Maybe what you went through was to help people, but it is the way that you are going about it that is not right. ? You are thinking with a white mind. I am not saying that in a racist way, what I am saying is go back to square one, stand back and see what you are doing. If you need to make a living don't use native teachings as your tool to do so.

****I do think with a white mind in some respects, because I was raised in, live in and have to deal with white culture on a daily basis. I do also have to support myself.
Regarding supporting myself by means other than teaching Native ways...first, I am not teaching Native American ways, exactly. I am teaching shamanic ways, and specifically women's shamanic ways. But I live on this land, this part of the earth, and I believe that if the earth and all She supports are to survive the assault of patriarchal culture, then that culture needs to be seeded with the wisdom of the Medicine Wheel ways, and that means teaching white people in a way that they can receive and integrate. Asking white people to pay for what I teach them is not a problem in white culture. If you take a long look at my web site, you'll see under "Native American Considerations" that I am trying to find a way to work with Native Americans on a basis that is culturally acceptable to them.
I own a large tract of land, and occasionally sell a lot. I am trying to protect the land from ? grotesque development in the future by attaching deeded restrictions and covenants on all lots I sell, regarding caring for the forest, etc.
I work very hard at all of these things, but do not make enough money at them at this point, to be able not to charge for my teaching or other services.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Le Weaponnier on March 24, 2006, 12:20:14 am
Quote
TO EDUCATED INDIAN:

 While your arguments regarding the science of genetics are erudite and no doubt correct from a white male dominated patriarchal culture's scientific perspective, they are not only off the wall when it comes to understanding women's ways, they are just plain misguided.


Shame on you for disrespecting women



Shame on you for disrespecting men. You are being patronizing when you speak like that. And yes, I chose 'patronizing' deliberately.
You chose to put this into a male/female view. As if THAT should make any difference.
Are you saying that men are wrong?

As for "scientific perspective"? Are you saying that  men are dominating the scientific field?
You just disrespected women scientists by implying they are inferior.

Or is it the science that's wrong because it disagrees with you?

I notice you didn't challenge the points about the "genetic memory" concept being wrong.
Why not? Hoping that one would go away?

Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: PLH on March 24, 2006, 05:00:13 am
I don't believe I have ever posited that the Medicine Wheel is a white concept, and if I have, shame on me, because of course it's not, and I don't understand it as such"
....that is the point exactly, your idea of exploring the Medicine Wheel is blatant irreverence.
.
There is no such thing as NDN genetic memory; there is no reality behind being NDN in a former life, no princesses, no shamans, no self appointed medicine men or women, no self appointed Elders and no tooth fairy.

I went to the website you have listed in your profile here. How much more patronizing can you get? Native American Considerations... You are sensitive to the history of the tribes... Wow and you give reduced rates to Native Americans...How very condescending of you.

There is one thing here in this list that does still amaze me, there are people here than can chew you up and spit you out, yet they are allowing you to do it yourself.

Here's the real deal: People don't get to go through life causing harm, deliberately or not.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Keguseno on March 24, 2006, 06:08:44 am
You guys may be right – perhaps there is no scientific basis for “genetic??? or racial memory.  And the idea could be used to claim legitimacy where none exists.  At the same time it is not uncommon to hear Elders speak about ancestral memory.  Are you saying they are wrong because western science says so?  What about the Grandfathers?  The spirits?  The Creator?  The power of a sacred bundle?  If we have no “science??? to prove they are real, does that make the old ones naïve or fraudulent?  The skeptic’s knife cuts both ways.  

If the goal of this site is to mock unscientific claims, then it has no claim to be a friend of traditional people.  The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend – as many have found out.  If the goal is to protect sacred traditions from exploitation, trivialization and downright appropriation (theft), then what does it matter whether you can measure it?  As I see it, the issue is not whether genetic memory (or chakras, the tooth fairy or anything else) really exist. The issue is that when you take a ceremony out of the land, language and culture where it came from, then, just like an organ cut from your body, it is no longer the same thing.  It is something else.  Plant it in the shadow of the age – narcissism, money-making, competition, short-term thinking, individualism, exploitation – and what was once medicine for the people becomes a bitter poison.  The challenge for those from outside the culture who have tasted the beauty of the medicine is not to imitate the ceremonial form that you see – it will turn to dust in your hand (as well as getting you held up to ridicule on the www).  The challenge is to imitate what you do not see – the profound relationships, commitments and responsibilities from which the ceremonies grew.  Won’t happen fast, but when and if it does, then that which has been lost might just return.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on March 24, 2006, 09:32:15 am
Quote
You guys may be right – perhaps there is no scientific basis for “genetic??? or racial memory.  And the idea could be used to claim legitimacy where none exists.  At the same time it is not uncommon to hear Elders speak about ancestral memory.  Are you saying they are wrong because western science says so?


Hi there, Keguseno. Among 'alternative' therapists, ideas about 'genetic memory', the 'collective unconscious' and so on, go back to the original therapy guru Carl Jung, who developed the idea from various racialised biological theories prevalent among white-supremacists in nineteenth-century central Europe. Richard Noll's book, 'The Jung Cult' (Princeton University Press, 1995) is good on this. While not wishing to speak for them, I doubt Jung's racist fantasies and their modern equivalents have anything at all in common with what elders mean when they speak about ancestral memory.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on March 24, 2006, 05:50:44 pm
Keguseno, I don't think ancestral memory and racial or genetic memory are the same. When elders speak of ancestral memeory they are speaking of traditions passed down orally, by longstanding tradition, with great care that nothing gets altered or distorted.

"Racial memory" is something straight out of pseudo-scientific racism. For one thing there's no such thing as "race". It's an invented social construct used to justify inequality. It has no place in Native cultures, or at least it should not. We speak of relatedness all the time, but it has no relation to skin color, the shape of our features, etc.

As far as genetic memory, well, I know some people like Trudell go on about memory being in the blood. As he himself often says, he may be crazy, but he's not incoherent. I'm not sure on what level he himself believes what he says.

Our goal is certainly not to mock unscientific claims. It's to expose and warn the public about exploiters who pose as peddlers of Native ways for a buck, and Scarlet Kinney certainly fits the bill. When they bring in pseudo-science and try to call it Native tradition, you better believe we'll point that out. And it's not from any love of western science that we do that.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: walking-soft on March 25, 2006, 05:49:24 am
Have been off line for a few days, just received a personal message from standing bear demanding I contact her immediatley for my statement on March 21. Sorry standing bear but I am unafraid to express my femine authority.

I did go to your sight and read your posting about this group. http://wwwthestandingbear.com/
stating you have been banned from this sight and that you received a personal email from debbieredbear, the moderator, stating that she was begining to believe you were sincere and was considering moving you to research needed.
Quite a right up.

Al has she been banned???

I have also picked up your bias oppinion toward men. Apparently you need healing there yourself. You have stated,"liberate themselves from patriarchal oppression, concepts.....". I am Cherokee and we are matriarchal. You haven't stolen our traditions, but what you have chosen to do is take a little of what you think are the traditions and made them into your own. Cherokees do not have shamans.

Why do you continue to brag about all your "credentials"? What a terrible,terrible experience you had to go through to be a shaman, well you chose that didn't you??

I have read all your sites and teachings, concerning this empowerment of women but from your postings about this group on your site it sounds like you are teaching how to be controlling, your views on the masculine is out of balance.

So I have one last question? Are you a woman or a man??  Or both?
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: piya on March 25, 2006, 07:25:51 am
Yes, quite a write up about NAFPS on the
www.thestandingbear.com well worth taking a look at.

It invites her followers to take a look at us, then to write their opinions, to her which will be posted on her site (subject to her approval)

Thats great if they come and take a look at us, they will learn a lot.

Can't wait to read the opinions, she recieves, published on her site. (there isn't any as I write this)

Discounts for native women! sheeeeeeeeesh, !!!!!!!

Piya

Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on March 25, 2006, 08:13:45 am
Quote
Yes, quite a write up about NAFPS on the
www.thestandingbear.com well worth taking a look at.


From the site: '... a group of Native Americans...'.

We're not all Indians here, Scarlet. But never mind incovenient facts! If we're motivated by anti-white racism then we all have to be bitter Indians, right?

Scarlet's minions, before posting don't forget to check out our newagespeak/plain English dictionary (http://newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=comedy;action=display;num=1111529517). it might you save a lot of time.

Later: it doesn't look to me like Scarlet's banned, though perhaps banned user IDs still show up on this site. Hers (http://newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=;action=viewprofile;username=Slow_Thunder) is still visible as I write. Looks like it was registered the day before she first posted as a guest.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: piya on March 25, 2006, 09:45:16 am
Quote
I have a suggestion for backgroundd music for their website after reading "lynxwoman" (and yes, Al, we have Lynxes up here on the Olympic Peninsula but I bet LW would not wish to meet one). I can't remember the name of the group but it starts out: "Money money money MONNNEEEY!" LOL!


Debbie, Its was a group from Annika's country, Sweden called Abba, heres the wording

I work all night, I work all day, to pay the bills I have to pay
Ain’t it sad
And still there never seems to be a single penny left for me
That’s too bad
In my dreams I have a plan
If I got me a wealthy man
I wouldn’t have to work at all, I’d fool around and have a ball...

Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man’s world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man’s world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It’s a rich man’s world

A man like that is hard to find but I can’t get him off my mind
Ain’t it sad
And if he happens to be free I bet he wouldn’t fancy me
That’s too bad
So I must leave, I’ll have to go
To las vegas or monaco
And win a fortune in a game, my life will never be the same...

Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man’s world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man’s world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It’s a rich man’s world

Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man’s world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man’s world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It’s a rich man’s world

It’s a rich man’s world


Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Mo on March 25, 2006, 12:02:45 pm
i was thinking it was the one by the O Jays, i guess both fit!

Money money money money, money (x6)
Some people got to have it
Some people really need it
Listen to me y'all, do things, do things, do bad things with it
You wanna do things, do things, do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money- dollar bills, yall

For the love of money
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money

For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper it carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green

Almighty dollar

I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds

Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Some people really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Got to have it, I really need it
How many things have I heard you say
Lay down, lay down, a woman will lay down
For the love of money
All for the love of money
Don't let, don't let, don't let money rule you
For the love of money
Money can change people sometimes
Don't let, don't let, don't let money fool you
Money can fool people sometimes
People! Don't let money, dont let money change you,
it will keep on changing, changing up your mind.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: fraudchaser on March 25, 2006, 02:30:57 pm
Can some one educate me on "shaman" that is a term I am not familiar with?
I come from a world that has medicine people.
Did I do a Rip Van Winkle and sleep through a change in our beliefs?
What the heck is genetic memory? Cause I wouldn't want memories of any of my ancestors, they had it bad.
Nothing on the subject comes close to what I have been taught, not even in the same ballpark.
I believe in bear medicine but here in my neck of the woods there are no bear medicine people walking this earth.
I can tell you if I was going through something physically traumatic or not and I saw a bear standing over me, I'll be honest I would sh***t my pants.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on March 25, 2006, 04:56:30 pm
It seems that Scarlet Kinney is getting pretty desperate. She can see her meal ticket slipping away and wants to protect that. For someone who claims to be super-spirchul and to be too busy with very ill family members she sure is spending a lot of time on this. A bunch of posts, writing to at least three members here, and spending a lot of time on her own site rallying the cult members...um, make that followers.

For awhile we weren't sure if she or someone working on her behalf had hacked the site. I was locked out of the site for half a day, but for now it seems to be OK.  

If it is her doing the hacking, then her followers/cult members need to ask if this is someone they can trust. And if it's one of her followers, she needs to ask about just what it is she is teaching them. As fraudchaser pointed out, she's teaching them how to manipulate and control. I don't know of any tribal belief that would say that's OK. Most would condemn what she's doing as simply wrong.

And in her own posts here she brags about getting people angry and getting them to argue and pick fights with each other as a way to "learn". Anyone whose studied about cults knows that's classic cult manipulation techniques, practiced by cults like Synanon, the Moonies, etc. The Deer Tribe even has a version of it, getting people to fight each other stripped naked "no holds barred".
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: frederica on March 25, 2006, 07:33:39 pm
I read her comments on her site about NAFPS. She sure is defensive. Does make it seem more commerical than "spiritual". ( and I use that term loosely). Lots ot twisting and manuplating. frederica
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 26, 2006, 01:59:28 am
I do not know the woman or business that began this topic , and I am not going to comment on her business specificly ,  but , as I know a number
of people who have been harmed by false spiritual guidence , I am wanting to share some thoughts on shamanic businesses in general .

So often ,these people who start up a business selling themselves as shamanic practioners use that they have the support and teaching of a person who is claimed to be Native ,as part of
their public advertisements . Often , this Native person is used as a prop , to validate a story
or experience that most people would immediately dismiss and avoid as delusional , without this
validation . Often , if people had any real knowledge of Native culture , they would know
this validation was just as unlikely , as the unlikely story it is supposed to support .

I also notice these Shamanic businesses often decline to say who it is, that they are using as a Native prop , making it impossible for people to realisticly evaluate the credibility of this supposed validation .

In my opinion , people have a right to know the truth about a teacher or healer or groups
real qualifications ( or lack of them ) If the Native person used as a prop cannot be named
for some reason , then they should not be used as a part of the advertisement .

Using Native people , and non native peoples ignorance of real Native traditions , to create an undeserved credibility for imaginary shamanic business products , is one of the things that often comes up in this forum , and it is this deception which many people find offensive, dishonest and exploitive. (amoungst other things ) If people want to sell a spiritual product , they should do so on their own merits , not by making it look like they
have Native teachings or authorization that are not there .

In many cases what is going on is deceptive advertising , pure and simple . Telling the truth about this , is in no way an attack motivated by misdirected anger . It is a public service .

Offering spiritual guidence to people that is imaginary can be very damaging , esp. if people make major life decisions based on this . I personally know a couple people who have been seriously harmed by making life decisions based on delusional spiritual guidence and teachings . We all make mistakes and learn from them , but , it is our own mistakes we learn from best , not somone elses .

Using the support given by real Native Elders or a claiming Native heritage , to validate a exploitive business product, also harms the next people , who might need help from these same Elders , or traditions , as these next people seeking help will have to deal with , not only their own problems but the mistrust and anger created by people who misused previous help and turned it into a phoney validation for a imaginary and culturally disrespectful business product .

Many of these business people could correct at least some of the wrong doing  , just by not
claiming to have Native teachings or validation , if they really do not . Seems like that is almost always how people end up being posted in this forum as being a fraud . I do not see anyone
posted here, who is making money channeling something from Alpha centari , Lemuria , or Atlantis
unless they also use some twisted traditional teaching or claim some non existant Native Elder has given them the golden stamp of approval.  

Just my 2 cents worth .

 
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Mo on March 26, 2006, 01:17:25 pm
exactly right. and too often the fraud will give the name of a legitimate Elder / healer but the Elder doesn't even know them.  I've seen this happen.
point is i don't know of any legitimate ndn healer who has trained anyone outside their nation..do you?
mo
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 26, 2006, 03:17:16 pm
I have seen Elders help a person of another Nation , and often this help comes in the form of teaching , HOWEVER , just because a person has gone to a dentist and had a rotten tooth fixed ,
that does not mean they are now qualified to do dentist work on people ! ( and yes , in ndn time getting a rotten tooth fixed might take a few years )

If someone had a Great granddaddy who was a dentist , and they have sometimes felt suprised to find themselves knowing something about teeth no one ever told them , they still are in no way qualified to do dental work on anyone .

I think what Keguseno said was exactly right , about an organ in our body only working if it is in the body . I have seen a few people who  for some reason , were authorized by Elders to do ceremonies or healing outside of a Native community , but after a while , it always ends up going bad .  I think the relationship with Native communities and the culture in them is absolutely essential to keep the Spiritual traditions and ceremonies alive and in good health. When these things go bad , people and the culture do get
harmed . Both Native and non native .
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: raven on March 26, 2006, 03:38:30 pm
Moma, Thanks for the input.
One thing that did stick out in your posting that applies here in my home, is that my husband carries the responsibilty of rites, ex: wedding, funeral, naming ceremonies just to name a few.
Whenever he is asked to preform say a wedding, he explains to those attending what he is doing and why, he explains these things so people do not walk away with confusion of why something was done the way it was done, these teachings that  were passed to him. He always , always, tells all ,who gave him these rites to preform such ceremonies and the why. He has never abused these rites, nor used them for profit in any manner whatsoever.
He has too much respect for his elders and the traditions to sell out as many do.
He doesn't go out and solicitate the traditions.

One personal note here: He once said to me "I never understood why Uncle Mick walked around with dried Malanta around his mouth, he then said now I understand why."
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: frederica on March 26, 2006, 04:52:29 pm
Exactly right Moma, I have always believed if you take what they are doing out of the culture, not using the language, and away from the land, performed by non-Tribal members, it is useless. Plus she claims Cherokee blood (grandmother x3), claims being taught by "Native American Mohawk Shaman", then hints at ties to Northern Maine Tribe, but can't prove this. I have problems with Cherokees doing Mohawk tradition. I do know oral tradition and genetic memory are two different things. Even the goose has to be taught to migrate. frederica
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Guest on March 26, 2006, 04:59:03 pm
Quote


I think what Keguseno said was exactly right , about an organ in our body only working if it is in the body . I have seen a few people who ? for some reason , were authorized by Elders to do ceremonies or healing outside of a Native community , but after a while , it always ends up going bad . .


Maybe that's what happened to my ex-wife. She hooked up with a group and started doing ceremonies.  Ever since it seems she's had nothing but bad luck. You name it, it has gone wrong for her.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Synapsis on March 27, 2006, 04:17:12 am
why do they always have to pick on standing bear??? gezzz poor guy

i feel as bad for him as i do for that christ fellow---you know---
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on March 27, 2006, 04:11:10 pm
Moma P, I wish I'd said that. You certainly said it better than I could have. Would you mind us reposting those last two posts of yours on our other site? I was thinking of titling it "When White Shamans Refuse to Say Who Their Alleged Native Teachers Are".
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Scarlet Kinney on March 31, 2006, 04:25:55 am
Although Al says I've not been banned from this site, I continue to get a pop-up window telling me I'm banned whenever I try to login on my computer. I've asked him to correct the problem, and/or to post the following message, but to date it seems he has not. I'm visiting my daughter, and was able to get on on her computer, so will post this notice myself. It also appears on my web site.
Notice to NAFPS Forum Members:
I will no longer communicate with any forum members whose only interest is in trying to discredit, malign or hurt me. I am very sorry that your personal and cultural history has been such a source of pain and suffering for you. I did not personally cause it. I will not accept blame for it in any form.
What I will do is listen respectfully and respond in a respectful way to anybody who wants to join me in an exploration of the issues at hand, with the goal of achieving some degree of tolerance, understanding, and perhaps even healing. To the few forum members who have been able to express their ideas to me in a non-abusive way, I thank you, and hope to maintain contact with you.
As I remain banned from the site, for whatever reasons or technical problems, I extend a warm invitation to anybody involved with it who wishes to take part in a mutually respectful continuation of the debate on this (my) site (www.thestandingbear.com) to do so, provided you follow the guidelines set out for doing so on the site's home page.
I will maintain my own forum regarding this issue on this (my) web site until or unless the following conditions have been met.
I will continue posting additional commentary to the essay that I've begun below (this notice on my web site). It think it may help to clarify my position, as well as what I'm doing.
Sincerely, Scarlet Kinney ?  

Al's Note: Since Kinney's ludicrous demands have already been posted elsewhere in the forum, I edited them out and request she quit spamming us with them. Also, patently offensive and false claims of hers were edited. We don't reward liars.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Scarlet Kinney on March 31, 2006, 10:54:37 pm
Is this a public forum or not, Al? As I said in my last post, which reintroduced the conditions that you deleted from my previous post, and which you have also declined to publish.
My conditions, not demands, for ending this dispute have not been published elsewhere on this forum, to the best of my knowledge, but are posted on my own web site, www.thestandingbear.com, on the Writings and Musings page. I invite anybody on here to go onto my site and read them.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on April 01, 2006, 05:04:02 pm
Ms. Kinney, read the link. Next time try doing some looking around before making a fool of yourself, yet again.

http://newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1143308351

Just how lazy are you in your research if you fail to notice threads with your name and your website's name displayed prominently in them? Just as lazy as it seems you are when it comes to researching Native beliefs, choosing instead to fall for phony versions such as Ohky Forest that fit a fantasy image to your liking.

I see a pattern in both your and your followers' ways: Claim expertise, spout off whatever nonsense comes into your heads, and then back off by claiming ignorance yet simultaneously maintaining you know far more than those poor dumb NDNs could about their own cultures and beliefs.

This is a public forum that rarely bans people, I think maybe a grand total of two since it's been up. You've been given ENORMOUS leeway, in part because we know from past experience that exploiters frequently hang themselves with their own words. And you haven't disappointed us. Each further raging contradiction only gives us more evidence of your being a fraud and exploiter.

But spamming is something we can't have. Neither can we have your heavy handed attempts to bully us into stopping our criticism. (Please look up "projection" in a psychology book, because that's what you frequently do.)

If you spam us again, then you really WILL be banned. We also have some survivors and friends of survivors of Nuage cult abuse in our forum, and if we find that your tactics are making them fearful of coming here, then we'll have to put an end to your attempts to control and dominate what can be said about you.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Keguseno on April 01, 2006, 09:36:58 pm
Here’s my two bits


Scarlett – you’re not going to get any validation on this site.  See it’s not really about you, your experience or your path.  Your experience – lets say it had happened to someone within a tribal community.  It might have been interpreted in a spiritual way by elders (or not).  They may have supported that person to take the next steps – and then sat back and watched what they did with that.  Step by step.  Year by year.  Responsibility by responsibility.  No certificate or authorization.  Just life.  And maybe, one day, that person would harness that power for the people.  Maybe.  

And maybe you had a real spiritual experience.  But what makes people cynical and even hostile is that the experience by itself confers no rights or authority.  Lots of people have had genuine spiritual experiences but nothing – nothing at all – can replace the hard work of doing your practice and serving the people.  It’s a life-long commitment.  New Age shamanism annoys people because it mostly promises the supposed rewards without the hard work, the community responsibility, the sacrifice, the accountability.   It looks like the latest fad - a way for non-native people to explore eco-spirituality while taking on all the things they fantasize being native is “really??? about – without having to deal with real people, real historical injustice.  It looks like the latest face of a 125 year romantic tradition of appropriating native identities and traditions – while the killing goes on.  And it looks like a con job because lots of people involved in it have exaggerated their credentials and because it seems deeply irresponsible to most medicine people.  It’s incomprehensible that someone who really was a “shaman??? would encourage others – for money – to do this.  It’s the hardest of paths and it chooses us – it is not for us to choose it.  So when you take on the label of “shaman??? these days – whatever your intentions -  it comes with a lot of baggage.  To the point that for many people new age shaman = fraud.  Period.  

So you can be right and still be wrong at the same time.  Sure the medicine wheel can be understood as a map of human consciousness – Albert Lighting and the late Phil Lane Sr. used to explain it that way.  But they were reaching out from deep within the tradition to help others understand.  From a non-tribal depth psychology perspective it’s a circle that is being used as a metaphoric map  - that seems to you to have similarities to what you’ve read/heard about the medicine wheel.  But to explore that link you have to go sit with one of the old ones –and before you bother them with a bunch of annoying questions, make yourself useful for while.  A decade’s a good start.

Same with the pay to pray thing.  Take George Tinker – whose book is favorably reviewed on this site.  A powerful community activist standing up against exploitation?  Yes.  And he’s a part Osage priest who makes a very good living teaching – among other things – Lakota spirituality to non-native people (and it doesn’t get any more pay to pray than Iliff School of Theology where it costs $25,000/yr to study).  He thinks Russell Means is an elder!!  He recognizes Ward Churchill as a Ketoowah Cherokee.  Anyone else would be in the Fraud section.  (Come to think of it…).  But he’s in the community and he’s on the front lines.  

What is so sad is that the medicine is free – it always has been.  The payment is your commitment, your honesty, your humility, your service.  I’ve seen tears come to the eyes of the old ones when they heard about it being sold.  What is so deeply offensive about charging for it is that it commodifies the heart of the culture – the heart of a spiritual covenant.  When this is deeply understood, all of the excuses for charging become trivial and self-serving.

Sorry for the long post
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Scarlet Kinney on April 02, 2006, 01:39:43 am
Keguseno, thank you for your post. So far everything you've said on here leaves room for discussion, and I greatly appreciate that. I really liked what you had to say about the possibility of the term genetic memory being the same as what Native Americans call ancestral memory. It's something I'd enjoy discussing more with you. Please feel free to write to me at the email address associated with my teaching center if you'd like to share your thoughts on this with me.


I have realized that I'll get no validation on this site. I would welcome any comments you might want to offer that you feel would contribute to such a discussion.

I'm in a very difficult position, both within my own culture and with some Native Americans as well. although I do have some friends in the Maine tribes. I did not seek power, it sought me, and trying to honor it is my only agenda, if one could call it that. My experience was real, and I've spent nearly 15 years integrating it. My teacher helped me survive the first few years, which were very difficult for me. Nobody in my culture could help me, and I don't belong to a tribal culture in which somebody might have recognized what happened and been willing to support or guide me through the most difficult part of it.

I fully understand that what I'm doing is a life-long committment, and I share your concerns about the new age instant shaman insanity. Nobody in their right mind would consciously seek to go through what I've gone through, physically, psychologically, or socially. And I'm still going through it, as evidenced by what's going on on this site.

You tend to come up with very balanced and insightful comments, and I appreciate your comments about the medicine wheel, as well as about the historical injustice Native peoples have suffered. While my teacher was not an "old one", she did introduce me to the medicine wheel as a living, sacred space, and she taught me to enter and work within that space. ? My work with it is not metaphorical in any sense of the word.

As I work mostly with people from white culture, initially I need to explain concepts and make comparisons in ways that they can intellectually take in. The first battle is to get the white brain to shut off, so that the teachings can be transmitted orally and psychically.

I was shocked to hear that some people are paying $25,000 per year to receive Native teachings! My students, all three of them, pay $2500 a year for the first three levels of training. There is no charge for additional training. And I pay my one advanced student for helping me teach. I have to charge something because of the enormous amount of time that goes into my work. My sister, who's a crackerjack business woman, once looked at my books and informed me that I was earning around $3.41 per hour, when time and out-of-pocket expenses were factored in!
My expenses for maintaining the center run close to $40,000 a year. So I also work very hard as an artist and writer to try and make up the difference.

In an ideal world, I would not have to struggle financially to hold onto my property, etc. But this is far from an ideal world. I do hope that at some point I will have earned enough money by other means to be able to teach people without charging them. In the meantime, I can't see that any purpose would be served by my committing financial suicide.

If you have any ideas about how I can accomplish my goal of not needing to charge students for my time, I would very much appreciate hearing what they are.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on April 02, 2006, 08:52:39 pm
Quote
I was shocked to hear that some people are paying $25,000 per year to receive Native teachings!
You misunderstand, again: they're theology students, training in a Methodist seminary. Tinker's not teaching them newage tosh about 'sacred spaces' so they can feel spiritual: they're learning, for example, about the communal values exemplified by the two Lakota brothers who killed uncegila.

Or they're learning about

"Kettle Carriers in the Osage War Ceremony"
Dr. Tink Tinker will present his research on "Kettle Carriers," a role reserved for gay men in the traditional Osage ceremony to prepare for conflict.
Sponsored by: Flame & Students of Color
Time: Noon - 1:30 p.m.
Location: Great Hall, Iliff School of Theology
Cost: None (http://www.iliff.edu/events/lectures_workshops.htm)
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on April 02, 2006, 09:28:23 pm
Off topic replies have been moved to [link=http://www.newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1144013304]This Thread[/link]
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on April 02, 2006, 11:33:21 pm
"Keguseno, thank you for your post. So far everything you've said on here leaves room for discussion"

Oh boy, talk about denial.

His exact words to you were "[your] experience by itself confers no rights or authority."

Followed by "What is so deeply offensive about charging for it is that it commodifies the heart of the culture – the heart of a spiritual covenant. ? When this is deeply understood, all of the excuses for charging become trivial and self-serving."

He basically told you that you were wrong, period. His EXACT words were that your lame excuses are "trivial and self serving". At best you are misguided because of the experience you went through. And yet you somehow still grasp at straws that what you do might be OK somewhere, sometime, under some vague still yet to be named conditions.

In essense, he told you to get over yourself and spend time ("a decade, say") making yourself useful befoe you could ever hope to begin learning the right way.
In all the posts you've made here, the only time you went into deeper denial was in still believing Ohky Forest somehow might be telling the truth, that she really is a Mohawk-who-didnt-grow-up-on-the-reserve-yet-somehow-learned-every-Mohawk-spiritual-secret-in-two-years (yet doesn't even remember the names of her alleged teachers, and says they wouldn't remember her) and mixes it with Mayan and "Mongolian" (which is an ethnicity, not a belief) alleged ways. Oh, and even though nothing she teaches resembles either Mohawk or Mayan beliefs, but vague generic Nuage nonsense.

"If you have any ideas about how I can accomplish my goal of not needing to charge students for my time, I would very much appreciate hearing what they are."

Simple: DONT CHARGE.

If what you have to say has any value, they'll voluntarily GIVE you what you need to live.

And knock off spending 40 grand a year on your shame-on business. How could you possibly, *ever* supposedly "need" to spend that much? Who are you trying to kid? ?

No Native elder spends 40 grand a year, no Catholic priest does (or is supposed to), no Buddhist monk, nobody except cult leaders or the crassest televangelist snake oil salesman posing as a Christian minister makes that kind of money. If you spend that much, then you're simply an extravagant, frivolous, and materialistic hustler posing as spiritual.

BTW, anyone thinking Tinker gets wealthy from tuition is mistaken. Most professors get paid only slightly better than high school teachers. 25,000 is also about typical for a private university, sadly.

Albert Lightning's teachings have been badly abused by frauds, and defenders of tradition have some words on the subject that are relevant to a white woman who fell for an alienated alleged Mohawk posing as a teacher of "Mayan Mongolian wisdom."
http://www.ammsa.com/buffalospirit/February-2000/adviceonpowwowtrail.html#anchor1511973
"An individual living in the city or away from his people for most of his life may not be the best person to provide a young person with traditional knowledge....Tradition has deep roots and can be based on rights or on years of service to the people....
Be careful of false leaders and pseudo-medicine men that charge money for their services, especially of those that take money before the ceremony even starts. To all faiths throughout the world, including those that are Native, consider money as the 'root of all evil.'
One piece of advice my late uncle would repeat every time I left home, was:
"Never try to be something you're not..."
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: SLK on April 04, 2006, 04:38:37 am
It's Scarlet Kinney...I was unable to get on with my former ID since you've updated the site.

I am withdrawing from this forum. With the exception of a few rational people on this site, I find your ethics to be deplorable; your agenda to be so fundamentalist and your behavior to be a disgrace to the people and culture you try to protect.

Attempting to reach some kind of understanding with you has been a very toxic experience for me, so much so that whatever respect I may initially have had for your work has turned into an impression of a group of people so deeply mired in their own pain it appears there is no hope for redemption.

You have done exactly what I knew you would do regarding my teacher, which is why I didn't want to disclose her name. I have contacted her to warn her about what's going on here.

I want to go on record as having realized, as a result of attempting to reach some degree of understanding with you, that whatever conflicts I may have had with Ohky were nothing whatsoever, mere spats, when compared to the depth and violence of the abuse you people have directed at me.

I do not respect you or your work and I never will. You have made such a bad impression on me that I am walking straight out of this mess and I will not look back. I will continue my own work and I will help any other people who have also been wrongly maligned and abused by you, if I possibly can. So do your worst. As for me, I'm walking a differnt path than you are, and I'm done with all of you.



Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on April 04, 2006, 04:45:33 pm
"I find your ethics to be deplorable"

Let's see if I follow your bizarre anti-logic: we protect people from abusers and habitual liars like yourself, and we have "deplorable ethics"?

"your agenda to be so fundamentalist"

Yep, here it comes: Demanding NDNs live up to your Nuage fantasies.

"your behavior to be a disgrace to the people and culture you try to protect."

One more time: a white racist trying to define what NDNs should be.  
 
"Attempting to reach some kind of understanding with you"

You haven't "attempted" any kind of understanding; you've DEMANDED repeatedly that we shut up and accept your falsehoods.

"it appears there is no hope for redemption."

Wait a minute; now you sound like a fundamentalist.  
 
"You have done exactly what I knew you would do regarding my teacher, which is why I didn't want to disclose her name."

Yes, I'm sure you knew, on some level, that she was a fraud. But you didn't want your fantasy disturbed.

"I have contacted her to warn her about what's going on here."

Excellent. I hope she comes here. Exploiters tend to hang themselves with their own words, as she did on Indianz.com.  
 
"whatever conflicts I may have had with Ohky were nothing whatsoever, mere spats, when compared to the depth and violence of the abuse you people have directed at me."

Anyone else hear violins?

Anyone else amused at the irony of an exploiter always playing the victim?
 
"I am walking straight out of this mess and I will not look back."

Is that a promise? Hope so.

"I will help any other people who have also been wrongly maligned and abused by you"

In other words, you will defend abusers by claiming they are being abused by the Natives THEY have wronged.

That's about as bizarre as it gets.

The good side is that a lot of your followers have made their way here, judging by the high number of guests. So you may be losing followers, who have wised up to your deceptions.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Mo on April 04, 2006, 08:00:05 pm
http://www.thestandingbear.com/treeoflife.htm

this is interesting. from an introduction of a book by scarlet kinney. she claims to not teach native spirituality yet says this...(hang on its a tricky ride)

"Forest also encourages white people to take on the ancestral blame rightly belonging to their forefathers, an undertaking that I reject, for several reasons. On a personal level, I believe in reincarnation. I have remembered more than one life in which I myself was Native American, and I have strong connections with Native American ancestral spirits who guide and teach me. To then assume blame for what my white ancestors may or may not have personally done to Native Americans several generations ago, and attempt to make it up to a contemporary member of that race as a condition of relationship, becomes a very tricky and dangerous psychospiritual stance. In that particular scenario, given my memories of past lives, I would be perceiving myself as both victim and perpetrator of the same crime. To take on such a convoluted position would necessarily put me- or anybody else foolish enough to do so- at serious risk of being exploited in any number of ways by those insisting that I personally accept blame for and atone for the history of my entire race."


and this part is amusing considering her demands made here...

"In more general terms, I think it's unwise and psychologically unsound to enter into any relationship in which the first condition of relationship is that you must accept blame for something, and especially for something that you did not ? personally do. This creates a gross imbalance of power and respect between the parties involved. Furthermore, making another person wrong is always the first step taken by an abusive person who wishes to gain some type of "power over" another human being."

and again some good advice yet she fails to see how it can also stand as a warning about herself...

"To anyone considering apprenticing to a Native American or to a shamanic teacher of any race, I urge you to exercise extreme caution and critical judgment about the character, ethical stance, possible hidden agendas, and camouflaged personal issues the teacher may be struggling with before you make either a financial or an emotional committment to the person. "
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: StealsThunder on April 04, 2006, 10:18:27 pm
Quote
http://www.thestandingbear.com/treeoflife.htm

this is interesting. from an introduction of a book by scarlet kinney. she claims to not teach native spirituality yet says this...(hang on its a tricky ride)


"I was led to Ohky Semine Forest, the metis teacher I studied with because I first dreamed about her. "



Now it's changed. First Mohawk, now "Metis". Of course, it falls into the standard trap of the definition of the word "Metis". This is the most common:

"Prior to Canada's crystallization as a nation in west central North America, the Métis people emerged out of the relations of Indian women and European men. While the initial offspring of these Indian and European unions were individuals who possessed mixed ancestry, the gradual establishment of distinct Métis communities, outside of Indian and European cultures and settlements, as well, as, the subsequent intermarriages between Métis women and Métis men, resulted in the genesis of a new Aboriginal people - the Métis."

However, many people, especially whites, automatically assume that "Metis" is a catch-all phrase that means "Indian/White Mix". No, the metis have a pretty distinct culture, and this Oakey Forrest woman is NOT Metis. She may have some native blood somewhere in her family tree (giving the benefit of the doubt) but that does not automatically make her "Metis". Not by the legal canadian definition, nor by the definition of most First Nations people in Canada.

Just another example of someone who has no real clue what she's talking about, but desperately trying to gain some sort of credibility by sounding like she does. Sigh...
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Ingeborg on April 04, 2006, 10:21:11 pm
Quote
I have remembered more than one life in which I myself was Native American, and I have strong connections with Native American ancestral spirits who guide and teach me.[/b] To then assume blame for what my white ancestors may or may not have personally done to Native Americans several generations ago, and attempt to make it up to a contemporary member of that race as a condition of relationship, becomes a very tricky and dangerous psychospiritual stance. In that particular scenario, given my memories of past lives, I would be perceiving myself as both victim and perpetrator of the same crime. To take on such a convoluted position would necessarily put me- or anybody else foolish enough to do so- at serious risk of being exploited in any number of ways by those insisting that I personally accept blame for and atone for the history of my entire race."

Thanks for the quotes from SK's site. This line of argumentation is racist in several respects: SK exculpates white persons by telling them, same as her, they probably were ndn in former lives; and having been ndns before means they cannot be 'guilty'. At the same time, she puts this guilt on ndns, because they were white in former lives. Foul is fair and fair is foul - and miraculously, white persons end up in a great situation: neither guilty (thnx to having been ndn in former existence) and neither white&privileged (c.f. before). This basically boils down to her saying: 'WE are still the better ndns, duh - we always were and always will be, double-duh'. And the minor rest that remains is easily shrugged of by "what my white ancestors [if any] may or may not have personally done..." (and for all I know, and care to know, they done nothing!).

This line of argumentation also serves very well as an excuse for not paying all that much attention to ndn life etc TODAY - hey, they bin WHITE in former lives, so THEY caused their today's plight, whatever it may be, all by themselves!! Treaties broken -you did that all by yourself in former lives. Land stolen - cf above. Unfavourable treaties - you negotiated them yourself and guess at what end of the table you were sitting. It also means that SK is telling ndns to stop whining because...

This is far worse than 'just' turning victims into culprits and vice versa. It's the perpetuation of racist attitude while at the same time telling the racists there is absolutely no need to worry and it's all okay the way things are in the best of worlds. Okay, so her theory might inflict a hardship or two on hardcore racists: (whisper) they were ndn in former lives. What is worse: white persons who still might feel it appropriate to think about ndn issues occasionally are encouraged, no rather urged to forget about it. It's not necessary - it's even unhealthy for your precious self. They only want you to accept blames, they're not asking for treaty rights or whatever.

And before I forget about this: it is also the most excellent way to insist on ndns sharing their traditions and religions with 'us' - it IS our rightful heritage because we were ndn when you were - what? Yup, white. (Hey, come to think of it - all these Wanabis going on about their GGgrandfather having been an ndn princess - guess what: according to SK they are right to the point!) So while my ancestors were the innocent ndn victims slaughtered mercilessly while the west was won, your ancestors were what??? White slaughtering b******.

This is the perversion of history, of present time, of future.
Forgive my cynicism, but please do pass me the bucket.

Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Ric_Richardson on April 05, 2006, 02:27:44 pm
Tansi;

This latest bit of "flexibility" of Ohki Forrest now being "Metis" is one of the common features of some New Age Frauds.  While she claims to be First Nations, but without being registered, now she is Metis, but I would imagine she is not registered in this manner, either.

The Metis people still have communities, which are predominantly Metis, such as the one that I live in.

It is unfortunate that many Aboriginal Cultural names are misused in order to confer some form of "credibility" to those who wish to abuse our Cultures.

Ekosi
Ric
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on April 05, 2006, 03:39:54 pm
Kinney just can't help revealing herself repeatedly in that last link.

"whether or not we like it, in today's world, money is the most valuable form of compensation that can ? be offered in exchange for services received."

LOL! Oh really? I doubt you'd find a single elder, or for that matter most Christian clergy, to agree to that one.

"There was nobody in my culture who knew what was wrong with me"

Nonsense. Any good shrink could've helped you.

"I paid whatever she asked for her personal guidance and workshops, and used my own resources to sponsor and advertise her initial teaching visits to Maine. Over time, this amounted to a great deal of money and by the time the relationship ended, I was in dire financial straits."

In other words, she squeezed you for every penny, but you're still in denial about her being an exploiter.

"because of the trauma I had experienced, I was unable to engage in productive left-brain thinking at the time. I could not understand or ascribe meaning to numbers or money, for example. Another result of the trauma I experienced during my intitiation was that I could not exercise any control over the outflow of my energy during those first few years after the event, including energy expressed as money."

That's a touchy-feely Nuage way of saying you were traumatized and Forest hustled you for every penny she could.

"To teachers struggling to heal their own cultural or personal wounds, I would suggest that they focus a great deal of energy on that healing ? before attempting to teach anybody else."

That's advice she herself should take to heart. All she's doing now is continuing the cycle of abuse.

"If, however, you experience any of the following symptoms during an encounter with a potential teacher, or any other person, you should consider that you have entered a danger zone, and you should exercise extreme caution regarding continuing the contact:
1. You are left feeling frightened, guilty, inadequate, diminished, or wrong in some vague way after talking with the person;
2. You feel "high" or somehow seduced by the person's charismatic personality;
3. You feel confused after reading materials the person has written, or after attending a workshop or having a private session with the person;
4. An attempt is made to convince you that you have some special gift or talent that could or should be directed towards helping the teacher carry out a messianic agenda of some kind."

Wait a minute. In her own words, every single one of those applies to what she went through with her exploiter, Forest.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Le_Weaponnier on April 05, 2006, 07:40:42 pm
Quote:""because of the trauma I had experienced, I was unable to engage in productive left-brain thinking at the time. I could not understand or ascribe meaning to numbers or money, for example. Another result of the trauma I experienced during my intitiation was that I could not exercise any control over the outflow of my energy during those first few years after the event, including energy expressed as money."

Isn't the left brain the side that handles LOGICAL thinking?
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on June 24, 2006, 03:20:16 pm
The latest on Kinney, with a "puberty ceremony for all ages". Exploiting children, or just gullible women who feel badly about their childhood?
----
From: "Scarlet Kinney" <scarlet@thestandingbear.com>
> Subject: Annual Shamanic Foundations Intensive
> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:11:07 -0400
> Shamanic Foundations Intensive
> on the Maine Coast in Surry
> at The Standing Bear Center for Shamanic Studies
> AUGUST 11 - 14, 2006
> The Standing Bear's annual Shamanic Foundations Intensive for women focuses on the meaning of the Center position on the Medicine Wheel Mandala, the place of psychological balance and stability.
> The archetypal energies, or "medicines" found at the Center of the Medicine wheel Mandala include Sea Turtle and the ancient Sea Turtle Goddess. During the Intensive you learn how to contact them and seek guidance from them that you can use in your everyday life in the ordinary world.
> All workshops include shamanic drumming, singing, movement, Medicine Wheel experiences and meditative visualization and journeying.
 You participate in a Shamanic Puberty Ceremony for women of all ages, a Shamanic Goddess Council, and a Sea Turtle Incubation Ceremony.
> You also participate in the presentation of a shamanic storytelling event about Sea Turtle medicine, "The Stone Heart Turtle People".

>Schedule of Events
 Friday, August 11, 7-10 pm~ Introductory Talk and
 Drumming Workshop: $45
> Saturday, August 12, 11am - 9pm~ Introduction to the
> Medicine Wheel Mandala & Shamanic Goddess Archetypes; Shamanic Goddess
> Council: $150
> Sunday, August 13, 11am - 10pm~ Sea Turtle Medicine & The Ancient Sea Turtle Goddess;
> Sea Turtle Incubation Ceremony;
> Rehearsal & Performance of "The Stone Heart Turtle People" a shamanic storytelling event $165
> Monday, August 14: 11am - 9 pm~ The nature of
> Shamanic Healing Ritual & Ceremony;
> Puberty Ceremony for Women of all Ages: $150
> Reduced Cost for Entire Intensive: $425 ¨
> Pre-registration with $150 deposit
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Slow_Thunder on June 26, 2006, 08:53:44 pm
To Al Carroll: You have gone way over the top this time, Al, in terms of slanderous remarks about the puberty ceremony I offer this summer. You have either misread what I wrote about the puberty ceremony, or have deliberately left out one all important word that is part of my announcement about the ceremony: WOMEN. I offer a puberty ceremony for WOMEN of all ages, not for children, fool.

As for why I do so, it's none of your business, as you're a male, and thus are excluded from participating in and not allowed to even have any opinion about such women's ways...unless or until you show proper respect and ask in the right way to learn them. If you grew up in a matriarchal culture as you claim, then you KNOW this, so I can only conclude that your remarks are not simply misguided, but racist as well.

You need to try and understand that in treating me with such arrogant disrespect as you have demonstrated in your most recent posting about me, you are also demonstrating an arrogant disrespect towards two things that all Native American cultures hold sacred: Mother Earth, and the Great Bear Spirit.

In attacking and slandering me personally on your web site, you are in fact also attacking and slandering Mother Earth herself, because like all women of all races, I am a physical manifestation of Mother Earth and as such deserve to be shown the same level of respect any conscious Native American would show Her.

In attacking my work and labeling it as fraudulent, you are in fact also attacking and labeling the Great Bear Spirit, who chose to call and train me to do this work, as fraudulent. I should not have to remind you that such behavior is not only reckless and ill-considered; it is also grotesquely disrespectful of the very traditions you claim you are trying to protect.

I suggest that you take the time to read what Medicine Chief Weylin LightEagle, a fully apprenticed Bear Medicine Man, has to say on the subject, which is posted on my web site, www.thestandingbear.com, and that you take it to heart. He is right.

Rather than slandering people like me, you and others like you would do better to spend your time, energy and money supporting and preserving the lives and work of people like him, who are struggling in poverty to keep, honor and offer to others the sacred spiritual teachings and ceremonies of your cultures, which are fast disappearing from the Earth....instead, you run about like rabid dogs, blindly attacking and abusing others while leaving people like Weylin to fend for themselves however they can.  Shame on you!
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: debbieredbear on June 27, 2006, 03:17:37 am
Scarlet,
Not ALL tribes hold the "Great Bear Spirit" sacred. Stop stereotyping. Stop passing on bullshit as fact.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: weheli on June 27, 2006, 03:37:44 am
Scarlet,
Once again YOU have not read what Al said. He was asking a Question.

I am very aware of all you are teaching, I am a Cherokee woman, and all this rage you hold within yourself will eat you up like cancer! You need a balance check, male and female balance. You are very one sided.

All these things you are teaching is NOT American Indian. Your rites of passage,puberty, is WAY out there, lets not forget when puberty begins. For women it can be at a very young age and I KNOW what you do in these workshops.

So why the rage???? >:(
                                                                 Weheli
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: snorks on June 28, 2006, 11:55:31 am
Question: I have read her site.  Does she claim Indian teachings of things?  I can't seem to find that.  Maybe I am dense.

Is core shamanism or New Age shamanism (which what I consider her stuff) to be suspect as well?  Perhaps, I don't know my definitions of what is what.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on June 28, 2006, 02:19:35 pm
Quote
Question: I have read her site.  Does she claim Indian teachings of things?

Read the rest of this thread, plus one or two others in which she features, if you want to know why she's listed here.

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Is core shamanism or New Age shamanism (which what I consider her stuff) to be suspect as well?

Yes, inasfar as it sells imaginary and meaningless 'Nativeness' to gullible people, often on the back a self-interpreted 'vision' or spurious authorisation from a pseudo-elder, all in the face of Native objections. Kinney's a good example of all that.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: snorks on June 28, 2006, 02:58:01 pm
Thanks.  I have read the thread but had thought the website was non-Indianized.  However, now that you explain about the new age shamanism being clothed in 'Native' stuff, it makes sense to me.  

I guess she is not claiming to have made up this stuff herself because it is what she has experienced.  But instead is saying it is based in some elusive 'native' teaching.

Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Le_Weaponnier on June 28, 2006, 05:27:34 pm
As another guide to the Frauds:
 Any place that calls itself a school for "Shamanic Studies" is automatically a fraud.
 I have seen several on the Net:

"The Institute for Shamanic Studies"
http://www.icss.org/

The Foundation of Shamanic Studies"
http://www.shamanism.org/

FoxFire Institute of Shamanic Studies
http://www.shamanism.info/

Scandinavian Center For  Shamanic Studies
http://www.shamanism.dk/

All Frauds...
And that only took a few seconds of searching.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Moma_porcupine on June 28, 2006, 06:30:02 pm
Quote Slow_Thunder

Quote
I suggest that you take the time to read what Medicine Chief Weylin LightEagle, a fully apprenticed ? Bear Medicine Man, has to say on the subject, which is posted on my web site, and that you take it to heart. He is right.

OK , I did read this , but I am not so quick to take it to heart .

I know next to nothing about Cherokee culture and traditions , but being blessed with a brain that sometimes works , a few questions seem obvious .

Who is this guy ?

Does the Cherokee Nation have a person who holds the postion and title "Medicine Chief"?

If so , does this guy really serve the Cherokee people , as a Medicine Chief? Do the Cherokee people recognize him as such , and who exactly bestowed this title upon him ?

He says he lives in Florida , and as far as I know there is no Cherokee tribe in that area . This letter you refer to ? mentions about 8 Indians living in his area who only occaisonally attend his ceremonies ? . ? As I understand it , in order to be a Chief, you have to be serving a tribe , and there does not appear to be one ? .

Of course , as I say , I know next to nothing about Cherokee traditions and maybe it is the Cherokee way to have their Medicine Chiefs hundreds of miles from the Cherokee community . Hopefully some Cherokee people can clarify this .

Your apparent eagerness to wholeheartedly accept this letter of endorsement , is a good example of some very common problems ? .

I mean REALLY ...

If you were a devoted Catholic , and you got a letter from a woman claiming to be a Roman Catholic minister , and the letter went on to say because the modren world was overcrowded abortion was OK , ? would you accept this persons opinon as "right " ?

I think you would KNOW enough to wonder who this person was , and question their claim to to be a spokesperson for the Catholic Church .

If you are an American , and you got a letter from someone claiming to be 1/2 American , and the Mayor of Ohio State , you would KNOW enough about American culture , to right away wonder who this person was . Even if they really were 1/2 American , you would still wonder .

If this person then expressed the opinion , that they had a right to commercially develop the National Parks , and pointed out that many American people could economically benifit from this commercial development , and employment could ? be created in poor areas that would provide food for the hungry , and housing for the poor , ? if you are an American , you would KNOW there was other important values that would be lost if these National Parks were opened to resource extraction and commercial develpoment . ? You would also KNOW that even the elected president of the country has no right, as an individual , ? to decide to do this .

That you are so quick to assume that one guys opinion is "right , just because he appears to be a real "Indian" , with impresive sounding credentials (I mean impresive sounding to you ) ? , is probably just more evidence that you have exceedingly little understanding of real Native American culture , traditions , and issues .

It seems this ignorance is a really common problem , that makes a lot of non native people vunerable to misunderstanding what sort of people they are dealing with .

I also found the letter you asked people to read interesting , as it is such a great example of the rationalizations people use to justify commercializing collectively owned Spiritual traditions .

He makes a comment about "a couple of older high ranking or co-founding AIM members who also wrote books and made money off them and then spent all their profits on themselves and are now holed up inside of whiskey bottles, getting drunk most of the time?"

I think it is important to realize that it is traditional Elders who object to commercializing Spiritual traditions . While AIM has taken on the job of being spokespersons for some of these Elders , individuals who are involved in AIM are not necessarily traditional Spiritual Elders , or Spiritual role models.

Attempting to justify commercializing Spiritual traditions by pointing out the personal shortcomings of some individuals involved in AIM ,is like saying the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" , is not a good guideline anymore, because some Christian politicians support the war in Iraq .

I just see statements like this as evidence of ignorance. Like vaugly knowing there is a forest, but not knowing enough to identify poison ivy from an edible plant .

And then there is the excuse ," I work so hard to help people , people do not donate enough , I need to make a living , so I have to charge ." ?  

Because I have heard this so often ,I ? am starting a new thread here to discuss the possible merits of this argument , which you can get to through the link below . ?

http://www.newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151516900 ?  ?

HOWEVER , any sympathy I may feel towards overworked Medicine people quickly evaporates , when I see them ADVERTISING for more work .

As appears this guy you are using as a supporter , is doing , ? on the website, acessible through the below link .

http://www.shamanlinks.net/Teacher_Links.htm

If people justify charging , by claiming they do not have the energy to do the work the right way, advertising for more work , seems very hypocritical .



Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: educatedindian on June 29, 2006, 04:02:16 pm
I'm glad Ms. Kinney came back, because 1) frauds always hang themselves with their own words and 2) she keeps showing everyone just how ignorant and mentally unbalanced she is. Someone would have to be extremely desperate or deluded to imagine her to be capable of teaching anyone anything, except what to avoid by her example.

But first, I want to point out to her that the information aobut her Fraudulent "ceremony" was *sent* to us by someone on her own mailing list.

Yes Ms. Kinney, the very people you try to fleece are often too wise to fall for you.

Let's take a look at her latest unintentional bit of comedy.

"You have gone way over the top this time, Al, in terms of slanderous remarks about the puberty ceremony I offer"

Showing yet again she knows as little about the law as she does about Native cultures.
It's not "slander" if it's true. That's black letter law.

"I offer a puberty ceremony for WOMEN of all ages"

Can't you even read what you wrote? You said for young CHILDREN of all ages, more of that inner child nonsense.

"not for children, fool."

 ;D Is she offering us her best Mr T impression? ?
 
"As for why I do so, it's none of your business, as you're a male,"

Ah yes. Ms. Kinney and her pseudo feminism again, mistaking being a Female Chauvinist Pig for being matriarchal.

"and thus are excluded from participating in and not allowed to even have any opinion about such women's ways..."

Showing yet again she doesn't know squat about Native women's roles.

"unless or until you show proper respect and ask in the right way to learn them."

Why would I want to learn from a FRAUD?

"If you grew up in a matriarchal culture as you claim"

Showing her ignorance of Native cultures yet again. Matriarchal and patriarchal are terms for Western cultures. Native gender roles are COMPLEMENTARY, for the most part. We don't glorify one gender's control over the other.

"so I can only conclude that your remarks are not simply misguided, but racist as well."

 ;D ROFLMAO!!!

Let me get your anti-logic straight: Because a dark skinned male won't bow down before a white female fraud, I'm "racist"?

How racist can you get that she demands Natives should practically Worship her?
 
"you are also demonstrating an arrogant disrespect towards two things that all Native American cultures hold sacred: Mother Earth, and the Great Bear Spirit."

 ;D Ms. Kinney, did it ever occur to you many Natives *Never Lived Near Bears*?
Are you going to tell us tribes in the Amazon or the desert held sacred an animal they never even saw?
Thanks for the belly laughs!
Like Debbie pointed out, you are stereotyping like the racist you are.

"In attacking and slandering me personally on your web site,"

Oh brother, if you want to constantly whine about "slander", let's see you back it up!

Take me to court! Please! I'd love the chance to show in a court of law you are a Fraud, Fraud, Fraud.

"you are in fact also attacking and slandering Mother Earth herself, because like all women of all races, I am a physical manifestation of Mother Earth and as such deserve to be shown the same level of respect"

Being a women doesn't give you a pass on getting away with fraud.

"any conscious Native American would show Her."

I'm not conscious? Well, your nonsense does get boring enough to put me to sleep...
 ?
"In attacking my work and labeling it as fraudulent, you are in fact also attacking and labeling the Great Bear Spirit, who chose to call and train me to do this work, as fraudulent."

It wasn't any bear spirit that "called" you, it was your Self Delusion.

"such behavior is not only reckless and ill-considered; it is also grotesquely disrespectful of the very traditions you claim you are trying to protect."

You don't have squat to do with Native traditions, as we've all shown you repeatedly. ?
 
"I suggest that you take the time to read what Medicine Chief Weylin LightEagle, a fully apprenticed Bear Medicine Man"

Fully apprenticed? Then the guy is still in training!
No, wait, more likely it means he paid some fraud for a "franchise" to be a fraud himself.

"has to say on the subject, which is posted on my web site, www.thestandingbear.com, and that you take it to heart. He is right."

His message is one of the least impressive I've ever read. A lot of whining, some ignorance in defending frauds like Brooke Edwards and Maria Naylin, not much else outside of his throwing up the racist stereotype of drunken NDNs. I'm not impressed by self hating types like him (assuming he actually is NDN, which is questionable.)

"who are struggling in poverty to keep, honor and offer to others the sacred spiritual teachings and ceremonies of your cultures, which are fast disappearing from the Earth"

There it is, MORE racism from you, the old Vanishing NDN stereotype.

A racist like you should be deeply ashamed. So should an ALLEGED NDN like Weylin, who seems to have a lot of self hatred, and more than a few screws loose. Don't believe me? See the thread on him.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on June 29, 2006, 09:57:07 pm
Quote
;D Is she offering us her best Mr T impression?

"I ain't gettin' on no plane, fool! I'll get there by shamanic journey!"
"Sure, Scarlet. Here, drink this milk."
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Moma_porcupine on July 01, 2006, 01:01:33 am
Reading what was written about a puberty ceremony for women of all ages , I did feel concerned that this would include children / woman / girls , as puberty usually occurs around the age of 9 to 13 , and so is something that happens to children . Anyone reading about a puberty ceremony , would reasonably expect this would involve children .

HOWEVER , New Age often has little to do with reality !

Reading through everything I can find that Scarlet wrote advertising this puberty ceremony including cached pages on Google , I do not see anything that actually says this puberty ceremony is for young children of all ages .

What I do see , is that it is for women of all ages , with lots of referance to a "little girl" which in New Age speak , can mean ones inner psychological child , and not real children.

I am frequently mistaken , and it may be I am not reading something that is somewhere , but I also have had it happen where I remember what I understood something to say , and not what was actually written . With the
puberty ceremonies for women of all ages , and frequent mention of "little girls" , it is a bit confusing , if a person is not fluent in New Age speak , but I am fairly certain these "little girls" are imaginary or psychological , and not real young children. ?

I get concerned when words that carry a lot of truth can be dismissed as unfair or incorrect , because one small part of what is being said , is not completely accurate .

I know from past experinece that when people do not want to hear what is being said , they will be quick to use any bit of incorrect information to discredit the truth of everything else that has been said. I do not like to see this happen .

Also I wanted to say that while I do not want to support anyone who imagines they can teach anything "Shamanic" for a fee , I do appreciate it when people make an effort to be honest , and Scarlet does say this puberty ceremony is something made up by her and her associates . I have to give her credit for her honesty in this statement .

Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Le_Weaponnier on July 01, 2006, 07:46:24 pm
I worry when I see references of any sort involving children and sexuality that some pedophile pervert will use it as justification for their behaviour.
That sort of text should not be leaving anything implied. There are too many perves out there to take a chance that even one of them may act out their perversions on a child based on what he reads.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: snorks on July 01, 2006, 08:54:46 pm
Does this center do a sexual ceremony as opposed to 'confirmation'?  Is that what they mean by 'Rite of Passage'?
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: weheli on July 01, 2006, 09:44:44 pm
Snork,
What is stated is women of all ages, and I really haven't got a clear understanding of what Scarlet means, it has not been clearly explained. I think she said it is ceremonies she came up with???? Very vague!!!!

Cherokee do have coming of age but I WILL NOT discuss any of it.
                                                                                        Weheli
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Moma_porcupine on July 02, 2006, 12:59:33 am
Hi Le_Weponier

I understand your concern , but this puberty ceremony does not sound anything like the fraudulant Cherokee fire person initiating childern into sexuality at puberty , that you were rightfully so concerned about , before .

Below is a link to the advertisement for this puberty ceremony . I doubt any one could read anything into this that could help them justify any perverted act with a child , although , if this commercial ceremony , did involve children at puberty , in my opinion , it could be seen as exploiting a childs developing sexuality ? . But I do not think it does , because I do not think any real children are involved ? .

How these woman have imagined a connection between a puberty ceremony and adult women somehow connecting with the "inner strong woman" in order to protect the "inner child" , is anyones guess , but , I think (?) , this mental imagery stuff is probably all that is going on .

You can read the advertisement through the link below , and if you read it a couple times , you will probably see what I mean . ?

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:EAn8wIuA78MJ:www.thestandingbear.com/thestandingbearcenter.htm+standing+bear+shamanic+puberty&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: weheli on July 02, 2006, 04:02:52 am
Moma_Porcupine,

I believe you are on the right track. The inner child really came to light during the Dr Bradshaw era. The belief that the wounded inner child, esp. those from sexual abuse, are wounded for life with all types of psyic. disorders. Many dissociate/detach from life. The belief that to go back, using immagery, find the wounded,frightened child, whether boy or girl, reconnect with that part of yourself ,and to begin to mother that wounded part. By so doing you are able to move on by using adult coping skills.

I to believe that by child here ,it does mean inner child.

                                                                                 Weheli :)
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: TrishaRoseJacobs on July 02, 2006, 09:23:15 am
Weheli

I think you're right.

Just too bad that someoen is willing to further victimize women who may already be survivors of abuse by taking advantage of their ignorance and offering them made up ceremonies as something they are not.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on July 02, 2006, 12:43:35 pm
Quote
The inner child really came to light during the Dr Bradshaw era [...] find the wounded,frightened child, whether boy or girl, reconnect with that part of yourself ,and to begin to mother that wounded part. By so doing you are able to move on by using adult coping skills.

You're right, Weheli, it's just John Bradshaw dressed in 'Indian' clothes. As Michael Yapko points out (http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/main/yapko/inchild.shtml):
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As a result of its relentless promotion through books, lectures, and tapes, the ''inner child'' is now a fact of life to countless Americans. They talk to it, write about it, interpret its dreams, indulge it in carefully constructed fantasies, and most of all, they try to fix it. "Healing the inner child within" has become the goal of therapists across the country, and a handy, highly publicized framework from which to launch their clinical practices and workshops. [...] So, what's the problem? There is no inner child! It is a metaphor, a representation, a suggested way of thinking about your experience; it is not the experience itself. But, for some people, the suggestion has transcended mere metaphor and become a reality. When I have publicly discussed it as an illusion, I've seen these people become angry and defensive, as if I've just called into question the legitimacy of one of their most precious beliefs. To be truthful, I have. Isn't it interesting, though, how so arbitrary a perspective can assume such personal importance and intensity?
Further (http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/main/yapko/bradshaw.shtml):
Quote
The "recovery movement" consistently falls back on the claim that it does not encourage people to blame their parents for their problems. Rather, John Bradshaw says, he wants them to be held "accountable." While Bradshaw may be able to differentiate between "blame" and "accountability," a great many Americans are not quite so discriminating. [...] Bradshaw's steady fanning of the flames of anger and resentment as a necessary path to eventual acceptance of things that happened and a greater sense of personal responsibility (which he claims are his goals) sends a very mixed message.
Kinney and other would-be 'feminist' gurus go further: patriarchy is to blame, not just parents! I'm sure you're not agreeing with Kinney that this is a way to help women become more adult, her stated purpose. If the likes of Ernestine Rose, Emma Goldman, or Voltairine de Cleyre could see what's perpetrated in the name of feminism these days they wouldn't just turn in their graves, they'd rise from them.

From a review of a biography of Ernestine Rose (http://www.sharonpresley.com/rosereview.html):
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Also setting her apart from her contemporaries in the women’s movement was her refusal to buy into the then (and still) popular notion of women’s “special spiritual nature.???
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Le_Weaponnier on July 02, 2006, 08:13:07 pm
Quote
Hi Le_Weponier

I understand your concern , but this puberty ceremony does not sound anything like the fraudulant Cherokee fire person initiating childern into sexuality at puberty , that you were rightfully so concerned about , before .

Below is a link to the advertisement for this puberty ceremony . I doubt any one could read anything into this that could help them justify any perverted act with a child , although , if this commercial ceremony , did involve children at puberty , in my opinion , it could be seen as exploiting a childs developing sexuality ? . But I do not think it does , because I do not think any real children are involved ? .



From the link you provided I can see that they do not make the connection to actual exploitation of children.
However, the wording is very very similar to the wording in the the Quodoushka sex cult thing. And THAT is the fraudulent fire person group.
I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is either coincidental wording or they just liked the wording of that passage and decided to use it themselves.

Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: weheli on July 03, 2006, 03:15:17 am
Barnaby,
I absolutely do not agree with the teachings of Scarlet. The movement of the inner child was a BIG thing in the 80's. Yes Bradshaw always used the blame game, both parents. What I see Scarlet doing is blaming all the problems women have on the MEN. This alone tells me that she herself has much healing to do. Highly feminist.

Everything she is speaking about I have heard before,"inner child work","women restoring thier power","becoming all we can be". Yes hers is dressed in a different package but in reality is the same ,only her workshops and seminars ect. come at a much higher price $$. She uses the "native" twist to draw and prey on women who are wounded with little to no self worth. What a terrible thing to do. Yes these women make their own choices but many do not know they have any and are looking for anything that "seems " to give them hope.

Thats where women and men like Scarlet step in with this "magic potion" of I will heal you, but it will cost you.
                                                                           Weheli :)
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Moma_porcupine on July 03, 2006, 04:41:16 pm
Even for people who do find the concept of the "inner child" a helpful way of working with their problems , I do not see any reason to include a puberty ceremony for middle aged women , except that it adds some fake Native American /tribal flavour .

None of the teenage girls I know of , who have gone through puberty in a tribal society, have magically activated their inner Warrioress . For many years after puberty young women are still very much in need of protection . There is no connection whatsoever with going through puberty and transforming the inner "Little Girl" into a "Warrioress " ? Except , I guess , having a puberty ceremony sounds cool .

It is a bit ironic that Scarlet complained in her last post that her words were either misunderstood or intenionally misrepresented , when this EXACTLY the complaint and feelings many Native people have when they see their words , teachings and ceremonies misunderstood and or intentionally misrepresented .

I wonder if she notices , that it does not feel good ....
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: Defend the Sacred on April 16, 2008, 04:09:49 am
It looks there's also a http://www.standing-bear.com/index.htm

I don't know if they're connected. I came across their site because they were advertising sweats, sundances and "the Way of the Pipe" on a Neopagan forum.
Title: Re: The Standing Bear: Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: zoi lightfoot on April 16, 2008, 11:45:48 am
Ok lets not play anymore huh? Tell me this Scarlett and Co, what are the names of these ellusive women who taught you as you claim,what is thier exact traditional position within their Band/Nation and what qualification if any did they claim to have that enabled them to 'educate' anyone outside their own communities.I happen to work directly with the women title holders of the Mohawk Nation Scarlett,so lets have that womans name, vague posturing doesn't work with me.
Title: Re: Scarlet Kinney & The Standing Bear Center For Shamanic Studies
Post by: frederica on April 16, 2008, 04:14:11 pm
Look like this a different bunch. Scarlet was in Maine, this group seems based in Maryland, then holds Ceremonies in West Virginia, and Pennsylvania. An offshoot perhaps. No memtion of Miss Scarlett. Couldn't find her on the internet either. But didn't look very hard.