Author Topic: Ayahuasca in Canada?  (Read 2069 times)

Offline Mr.Michif

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Re: Ayahuasca in Canada?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2021, 07:33:13 pm »
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some fraud who set up a drug church somewhere and claims to be an Elder

What is your definition of fraud? So you are saying Religions in Brazil based on the use of Ayahuasca are fraudulent? Even if many of the people involved in these religions have ancestors that stems from ancestors that used this brew thousands of years ago?....

These religions do not call their knowledge keepers Elders.

Please clarify to me who owns the rights to say who gets to use Ayahuasca. Like the article I posted asks, is it the multiple indigenous groups that use it, is it the religious groups that use it, is it people from Brazil, South America, those who have received spiritual guidance from the creator?

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Elders who are begging outsiders to leave their ways alone.

Are their ways, the way they work with the medicine, and the language they use surrounding it, or is it the plants themselves? Can people use the plants not appropriate the culture?

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It all goes against what the traditional people are saying

What are these groups saying? which Elders do you talk to in this area? Are they saying they want the plants to be left alone or their way of life? are you saying these are inseparable even if the plant and vine are grown and ethically harvest far from these traditional communities?

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The Elders we've heard from are not running "churches" in cities. They're the people struggling to protect their forests, lands, and people from genocide.

Again, if the people, land, and forests are left alone, would the Elders still be upset if spiritual communities elsewhere that grow and make the brew themselves use it for their own spiritual reasons?

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And everyone who acts as a spiritual or drug tourist is participating in that genocide, no matter how they dress it up.

So if I: Grew the plants myself in a remote greenhouse on a farm and I practiced with it in my own way to further my own spiritual development, who exactly am I genociding?


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who have no right to take this medicine out of its culture and context?

So no one has the right to use this medicine out of its original context? Good and the bad literally everything around us has over thousands of years been shifting its use from its original context. Coffee and tea are so widely used now, sometimes spiritually, sometimes not. Even much of the food we eat, eating in itself is a ceremony. Many of the groups now that work with Ayahuasca, appropriated it from other groups over the thousands of years. It is the same with the Sundance and many other ceremonies, that started with one group and spread from there. Even horses were appropriated when they were introduced to North America. You subscribe and promote the shifting of culture and context the same as everyone else on earth.

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We stand with the Elders who protect their sacred plants and traditions, not those who are pillaging the plants and selling out the Indigenous people to make a buck.

So if the plants are not being pillaged, no one is making a buck, no culture is being appropriated and the Elder's ways are protected, your only issue is whether someone else is using the medicine with pure intentions which you will never be able to prove definitively.

This is not a black and white issue, it's an ongoing dialogue. The reality is, Ayahuasca is becoming globalized for better or worst. I came here to seek moral guidance as someone who used and may use again this medicine. Not to have my spiritual intentions judged by the spiritual police, no one owns spirituality and to pretend you are is a crime of its own. Stop pretending to know anyone but yourself, and remember when you point your finger at someone, three fingers point back at you. I believe from a moral standpoint it is possible for Ayahuasca to be both globalized and respected just as the horse had been by First Nations.
Admittedly, globalization of anything has a pretty brutal track record, but there have been good things that have come from it. I understand this is sensitive because it has and continues to cause genocide.

I see the possibility for this medicine to shift the way humans abuse the earth and each other, if done correctly.  and that is a powerful enough reason to persuade me that maybe this spread can be a good this, again, it needs to be done respectfully. That's where I choose to stand, I obviously have my opinion and you have yours, I came here for more information to shift the way I see things, I never came here with the intent to see things your way, as your way might not be the right way and mine not either.

This discourse helped me see more clearly what information needs to be shared about the risks of the globalization of Ayahuasca, a conversation too many people would rather ignore. I see the concern for the medicine being abused and becoming a commodity and it concerns me as well, but to stop the spread in my eyes is futile and a century too late.  Our best bet is to educate people so that it can spread ethically and it stays out of the hands of plastic shamans in it for the money and notoriety.

Nobody owns what comes from the earth, and it is everyone's job to protect it and treat it with respect. At the end of the day, those who abuse these gifts answer to the creator. The Earth will be here long after humans have gone extinct, I see Ayahuasca as a catalyst for change, to reconnect people to the single source of life which may help us survive in equilibrium a little longer, you see it as another form of exploitation of humanities struggle with greed which is how we've ended up in our current situation. I respect your view, I know it has merit, and I take it to heart when I weigh the pros and cons. Just differing opinions anyway, I know this forum gets heated. I respect what this forum does and I do think there is a need for a place like this to provide information. Thank you.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Ayahuasca in Canada?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2021, 07:47:12 pm »
Some of the most respected Elders in Indian Country went to the Amazon and met with the tradition-keepers there. That is who we spoke with about this. That is who made these requests.

The "globalization", "everyone else is stealing it so why not me" and "no one owns spirituality" excuses are the same crap we hear every day from exploiters who put self, colonialism, and individual desires over the good of the people, their traditional ways, the spirits, and the vine itself.

It's ugly, and it's the exact, colonial, exploitative attitude that is endangering the vine and harming the very people and spirits charged with guarding it. 

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Ayahuasca in Canada?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2021, 07:53:14 pm »
Also, as an outsider to the culture the vine is from, it's not your place to decree if this appropriation is being done "correctly" or "respectfully". The tradition-keepers of those cultures have already said the appropriation is disrespectful, incorrect, and very, very harmful. You refuse to listen. Take your colonialism elsewhere.

Online Laurel

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Re: Ayahuasca in Canada?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2021, 10:58:14 am »
Mr. M., I told you you wouldn't like what you read here. I told you you were seeking permission you would not get to do something that is wrong. Now you presume to invent rules for making the wrong thing right and to lecture the people you said you came here to learn from. And you're going to leave with the same wrong mindset you had when you got here: "I can do anything I want as long as I don't pay for it."

You weren't the first person to come to this message board and attempt to get Native permission for your appropriation. I very much wish you could be the last, but that won't be the case either.

Offline milehighsalute

  • Posts: 351
Re: Ayahuasca in Canada?
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2021, 10:57:36 pm »
Hey everyone, I am new to this website so please forgive me if I posted this in the wrong area.

I recently went to a medicine ceremony for Ayahuasca near my home. It was run by two European men that had studied in a place called Flor Astral in Costa Rica. Apparently, this place was based on the Santo Diame tradition? I did some brief research on Santo Diame, and from what I gathered it is a religion based on the combination of several different religions as well as the Shapibo indigenous spirituality.

They were welcoming, and although inexperienced, they were very transparent about the extent of training they had been through. Because it was just a small group of us, most were close friends, I did feel as though they were trying to run a business or be something they are not.

They charged what they had said the medicine cost them to bring up which was 30, and then everyone chipped in evenly to rent the space we were in. Everyone brought food to share.

I am still unsure how I feel about this. In the way I am learning now, medicine and ceremonies should not be paid for. But I also understand that this medicine is not native to North America and that by themselves they are not able to afford to pay for everyone to sit.

As a side note, I have seen social work organizations paying Elders' salaries to share teachings and hold Sweat Lodges, which I think is a great idea, but still, runs contrary to the idea that ceremonies should not be paid for.

I offered tobacco before I drank, and I asked one of the hosts to use sage that I had picked to smudge the medicine which they did respectfully.

Please let me know your opinions on how you feel about this, I really appreciate the guidance.

when a peckerwood says they "studied" somewhere that is hard to verify in the western hemisphere....

that means that they participated in some workshop ran by some bullshit artist on some spiritual tourism vacation

when ayahusca is involved that means they are very intrigued not by spiritual side of it but by GETTING HIGH and having an excuse

when they put on their own spirchul events it is because they want to fleece you for you money and/or act all knowledgeable to impress the chicks for a lil jiggy jiggy....oh...and GET HIGH......getting high is always more important than praying to these cons