Author Topic: Pipestone on eBay  (Read 25710 times)

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Pipestone on eBay
« on: September 12, 2007, 04:11:07 am »
Looking through that old post on the guy who was selling "Cherokee Names" on eBay, I decided to search the site some.  Looks like they're still selling pipestone: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=pipestone 

Is there anything we can do to stop this? 

ETA: Oh geez... looked around the site more.  It's not only pipestone, it's all kinds of stuff... this is worse than I knew.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 03:43:00 am by Kathryn »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2007, 11:11:54 am »
The Catholics already addressed a similar situation , and it it looks like they got EBay to agree not to sell their Sacred items.

http://www.petitiononline.com/bbsdofj/petition.html

Quote
To:  EBay

Add the Eucharist to the List of Items Prohibited for Sale on EBay

On April 11, 2005 EBay auction #6169851381 closed at $2,000. A transaction was arranged between a seller from Sloan Iowa and a buyer from California--like the many exchanges that occur on EBay every second of the day. However, this was no ordinary transaction. The seller had on the auction block a Host that was consecrated by His Holiness John Paul II.

We as Catholics firmly believe Jesus’ words in John 6. We believe that in that $2,000 auction is the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ truly present in every Holy Eucharist. We are not impressed by the seller’s description of the Bread of Life as a “COLLECTIBLE??? or “momento from that great afternoon with Pope John Paul II??? (poor spelling was the seller’s). We are disgusted with EBay’s Pontius Pilate response: “However, even though these auctions may be offensive to some, please remember that most of the time the law does not prohibit the items.??? EBay continues by putting the Holy Eucharist in the same category as “Catholic relics of saints, LDS garments, certain Buddhist tablets, etc. However, eBay has made the decision not to prohibit any item only the basis of the item being endowed with sacred properties by certain religious groups.??? This is a further outrage considering that certain Nazi items are not allowed. Jesus’ Body can hit the auction block in EBay’s worldview, but Nazis—that’s offensive!

EBay must act now to halt future sales of Holy Communion on its auction site.

Sincerely,

( this update is actually at the top of the page of the link above )
Quote
Update from a letter from eBay to an author of a similar petition: "We understand that the listing of the Eucharist was highly upsetting to Catholic members of the eBay community and Catholics globally. Once this completed sale was brought to our attention, we consulted with a number of our users, including members of the Catholic Church, concerning what course we  should take in the future should a similar listing appear on our site. We also consulted with members of other religions about items that might also be highly sacred and inappropriate for sale. As a result of this dialogue, we have concluded that sales of the Eucharist, and similar highly sacred items, are not appropriate on eBay. We have, therefore, broadened our policies and will remove those types of listings should they appear on the site in the future." This petition will not close, though, until eBay actually puts the Eucharist on the list of prohibited items for sale.

When it comes to stopping the sale of Sacred items from Native cultures , one problem is getting a clear consensus . Even if the people who disagree with these sales are the large majority , the people who will loose an opprotunity to make money tend to make a lot of noise .
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 02:47:46 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline ironbuffalo

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2007, 12:44:32 pm »
{snip}
Is there anything we can do to stop this? 

{snip}

.

  I don't know. It might be difficult since to most folks pipestone is just a "rock". It isn't an "Official Religious Item" to the mainstream white culture. Perhaps if enough people protest.....
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 03:31:51 am by Kathryn »

frederica

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2007, 02:09:54 pm »
I been told they sell different things at the quarry itself, would make it harder to deal with if that is true.

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2007, 04:38:12 pm »
Having been to the quarry I can say that they (used to anyway) sell pipestone, pipes, fetishes and more there in the gift shop. On talking with the people there, the quarriers and the pipemakers, I found that many were CXhippewa who believe that the pipes etc are only sacred when made sacred. Recently, in an Indian paper, I saw an ad for the {i[estone Quarry Pow Wow. It stated that  all host drums would be given a pipe. Or was it all drums that attended? It was maybe a month ago.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2007, 08:14:48 pm »
Well ...
I know someone who had a piece of uncarved Pipestone come to them which they passed on , and they had an experience just with passing it on in a respectful way, that really helped them .
 
IMO Pipestone IS Sacred , and needs to be treated with the upmost respect, even if it hasn't been carved into a Pipe. 

I don't agree with commercializing and selling the Sacred , or using this as a way to make money . In my opinion it is always degrading , and not being able to sell something Sacred will always potentially put someone out of a job.

Once you start using things to make money they generally stop being Sacred . Sure i guess people can decide something is just the "outer edge " and trim that away to sell , rationalizing that it is "not really Sacred ". But I think these traditions work more like a cars engine , and there isn't much there that really is " non essential ". Even if there is , once you begin selling off bits an pieces , it just makes it more acceptable for the next person to come along and sell off whatever a few people declare is the new so called nonessential "not really Sacred" part.

So , people need to decide , what is more important , protecting traditions that are Sacred from becoming cheapened through commercialization,  or people having jobs selling the Sacred . A choice has to be made , and in my opinion ,it isn't possible to have both . Because you can only sell off the so called "outer edges" for so long before there is nothing left .

I know many Elders are really saddened to see Pipes and Pipestone being sold .

I know a person of Native descent who found a sense of direction that lasted them for decades from just witnessing a Pipe ceremony from a distance . I have no idea why so many people think they need to personally posses a Pipe , when they can never know how to properly maintain the traditions that go with them , and respect for these traditions are absolutely necessary to keep this Sacred .   

Unfortunately , as with everything else where money comes into the picture , traditions get warped and this then becomes " controversial ".

http://www.pluralism.org/research/profiles/display.php?profile=74330

"In 1986 the National Congress of American Indians voted to prohibit the sale of any type of finished pipestone object, whether intended for ceremonial uses or no. "

"In 1996 the Keepers of the Sacred Tradition of Pipemakers was formed by a group of quarrying artists dedicated to a liberal  reading of pipestone tradition, one of inclusiveness. They offer pipes for sale to anyone, provided that their "heart is into it."
( Does this mean they refuse to sell to anyone who doesn't seem like they will be responsible ? ) 

"He ( Arvol Looking Horse ) acknowledges that pipestone and pipes have always been traded, but that the pipe tradition needs to be strengthened internally before it can survive in a cultural and economic free-market."

So , it seems thee is lots of different opinions . Which makes agreeing on any type of protection really difficult .
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 08:17:51 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Laurel

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2007, 09:32:12 pm »
I collect Zuni animal carvings (sometimes called "fetishes").  I consider this an art collection.  I have never intended to buy sacred things; these carvings are not presented as sacred, as they're made by individual artists specifically for sale. 

However, two of mine are made of pipestone.  If someone would be willing to advise me on the ethics of their having been sold and my having bought them, I'd be grateful.  I don't want to contribute to the sort of thing I joined the forum to help stop.

Laurel

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 05:08:06 pm »
It looks like the roots of this disagreement, may be that the Plains Indians have different traditions around the Pipe than the Eastern Woodlands .

Early descriptions of tobacco use by woodlands tribes , sound like ( maybe ? ) smoking was not always strictly ceremonial .

http://www.tobacco.org/History/Tobacco_History.html

470-630 CE: Between 470 and 630 A.D. the Mayas began to scatter, some moving as far as the Mississippi Valley. The Toltecs, who created the mighty Aztec Empire, borrowed the smoking custom from the Mayas who remained behind. Two castes of smokers emerged among them. Those in the Court of Montezuma, who mingled tobacco with the resin of other leaves and smoked pipes with great ceremony after their evening meal; and the lesser Indians, who rolled tobacco leaves together to form a crude cigar. The Mayas who settled in the Mississippi
Valley spread their custom to the neighboring tribes. The latter adapted tobacco smoking to their own religion, believing that their god, the almighty Manitou, revealed himself in the rising smoke. And, as in Central America, a complex system of religious and political rites was developed around tobacco


1492-11: Jerez and Torres Discover Smoking; Jerez Becomes First European Smoker

 Rodrigo de Jerez and Luis de Torres, in Cuba searching for the Khan of Cathay (China),  are credited with first observing smoking. They reported that the natives wrapped dried tobacco leaves in palm or maize "in the manner of a musket formed of paper." After lighting one end, they commenced "drinking" the smoke through the other. Jerez became a confirmed smoker, and is thought to be the first outside of the Americas.

1493: Ramon Pane, a monk who accompanied Columbus on his second voyage, gave lengthy descriptions about the custom of taking snuff. He also described how the Indians inhaled smoke through a Y-shaped tube.


http://www.tobacco.org/resources/history/Tobacco_History16.html

1535: CANADA: Jacques Cartier encounters natives on the island of Montreal who use tobacco.

"In Hochelaga, at the head of the river in Canada, grows a certain herb which is stocked in large quantities by the natives during the summer season, and on which they set great value. Men alone use it, and after drying it in the sun they carry it around their neck wrapped up in the skin of a small animal, like a sac, with a hollow piece of stone or wood. When the spirit moves them, they pulverize this herb and place it at one end, lighting it with a fire brand, and draw on the other end so long that they fill their bodies with smoke until it comes out of their mouth and nostrils as from a chimney. They claim it keeps them warm and in good health. They never travel without this herb." ---


http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-4364584/Effigy-pipes-diplomacy-and-myth.html
The dominant pipe form throughout the Iroquoian world of this time was a small (typically about 15 cm long), single-piece object of fired clay.....

Documentary and archaeological evidence indicate that men were the primary owners and users  of smoking pipes (Kuhn 1985:58-67). Typically, a man passed the time puffing away "through pleasure and habit" (Fenton and Moore 1977:86), the leisure use of pipes so pervasive that reference to it served as a metaphor for the good life: "We should have nothing to do," as one Oneida said, "but sit in our doors and smoke our pipes in peace" (Cantine and DeWitt ca. 1793:123-124). Iroquois pipe smoking was a solitary activity engaged in by the individual puffing away on his own pipe, even in such group settings as council (Fenton 1991:111; Fenton and Moore 1974: plate XVIII, lower panel).

Here is some links to collections of ancient pipes . The use of red catlinite was relatively rare . 

http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2002januaryhopewellpipespage1.htm

http://bsc.rlch.com/pipeshtm/bodypipes.htm

http://www.mississippian-artifacts.com/html/pipes.html

http://www.wcedar.com/fin1.html
The pipes of the Eastern Woodlands ceremonial complex represent several different art forms.The oldest pipes are primitive in style, and are located within one regional area. The materials for making pipes is normally dictated by the availability of the stone, or the trade system the particular nation uses. The materials include limestone, sandstone, pottery, antler, wood, steatite, slate, catlinite, bauxite, and a combination of clay and bauxite, which is fired.

The list describes 60 Pipes only but only 3 are listed as catlinite .

From what I can understand , not all red pipestone is the Sacred Pipestone from Minnisota. 

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=2750
Until recently, it was thought the pipestone used to make the Tremper pipes had been quarried from Ohio pipestone outcrops across the Scioto River from Tremper Mound. Scientific tests now have established that most of the pipes are made from Sterling
pipestone from northwestern Illinois.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3904/is_200304/ai_n9189139/pg_1
X-ray powder diffraction analysis of six red Adena/Hopewell pipes from Wisconsin correlated five to catlinite from southwestern Minnesota and one to Kansas pipestone.

From what I can tell the Sacred Pipestone from Minnisota was one of the least common materials used by the Woodland peoples in the crafting of their traditional Pipes , and as there is red pipestone that comes from other places, I'm not sure how many of the minority of Woodlands Pipes that were made from red pipestone were actually made from Minnisota Pipestone.

The Pipestone from Minnisota appears to have a different history and use than the materials most commonly used in Woodlands Pipes . 
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:0fEtQaw00CkJ:home.nps.gov/oia/topics/worldheritage/Addendums/PIPE%2520addendum.
pdf+archaeology+catlinite+distribution+%22Pipestone+National+Monument%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca

Pipestone has been quarried at the site of the current National Monument since 1100 or 1400 AD, with evidence that limited quarrying began much earlier, possibly as early as 200 BC during the Woodland Period......

During that time, the stone has been carved into beautiful and detailed pipes for religious or ceremonial purposes. Fetishes, objects believed to have supernatural powers or representations, were also created from the stone.
While American Indians used many types of stone throughout the Americas for utilitarian purposes, very few stone types or minerals were used exclusively for decorative, ceremonial or religious purposes. Even fewer had or maintain the level of cultural significance as the pipestone.


--------------
A similar red clay stone is found in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, South Dakota and Arizona and is also found in glacial till in the Plains as far west as Kansas, but are viewed as distinctly separate and inferior stones.

The main people behind the "Keepers of the Sacred Tradition  of Pipemakers." ,  seem to be from the Eastren Woodland traditions and their people originated at least 600 miles East of the Pipestone quarry in Minnisota .

Bud Johnston, the President of the "Keepers of the Sacred Tradition  of Pipemakers."is Anishanabe. ( Ojibway / Chippewa ) would be of the Eastern Wooldlands traditions .

The Spiritual advisors named are mostly Cherokee , and I don't see any Lakota .

http://wayofthepipe.com/Jim-Tree-Author-Writer.htm

Jim Tree sits as a spiritual advisor on the council for the "Keepers of the Sacred Tradition of Pipemakers."

http://www.theriverwindfoundation.org/AWSG.htm

JAMES MEDICINE TREE , of Cherokee/Irish descent, is a ceremonialist and author of, "The Way of the Sacred Pipe." He is a voting Council member of the "Keepers of the Sacred Tradition of Pipe Makers" and serves on the advisory board for the E.T. Seton Institute (Black Wolf). Jim is a respected spiritual adviser, a well known stone sculptor, and Pipe carver. He is responsible for the care of the United Nations Turtle Pipe, created and presented to the UN in 1978 by Adam Fortunate Eagle.

Although these people are from the Woodlands culture , I see many or most of the Pipes they are selling do not resemble the ancient Pipes from their own culture , but instead are styled after the Plains Indian's Sacred Pipes .

I also see the Spiritual Advisor of "The Keepers of the Sacred Tradition of Pipemakers" doesn't mind selling questionable out of context "teachings" at gatherings alongside of people such as;

8:30 am: Teachings from the Buffalo Lodge with James Medicine Tree
2:00 pm: Finding & Working With Animal Spirit Guides with David Bearclaw Abrams
2 pm: Teachings of the Purification Lodge with James Medicine Tree

2:30 pm: Purification Lodge Ceremony* or Free Time
2 pm: Spirit Naming Ceremony  with David Bearclaw Abrams
6:30 pm: Journey with the Spirits of the East led by Teresa Jackson

REGISTRATION FEE: $795 if paid in full and postmarked by March 17, 2006. $855 if postmarked after March 17, 2006.


I can see why there is strong objections to what these folks are doing . 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 01:44:38 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 05:24:16 pm »
Interesting. I think Jim used to be a member of this forum. If he's the same one I am thinking of. And I believe you are correct about the roots of the disagreement.

frederica

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 06:01:42 pm »
Another objection I have heard is the selling of "Pipes" at Powwows.  Some vendors I know said they will not sell any pipes, any shape or form, as they suspect when purchased by non-ndns they are used to smoke marijuana. The problem is the source. There was a petition-on-line some years ago may 4, and I believe it died a natural death, as there was a outcry about putting people out of work. My guess is even if your could control the source, it would still be available.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 06:23:12 pm »
Laurel, I think the kind of pipestone yours are likely to be carved of are slightly different from that used at the Pipestone Quarry. If you look carefully at the material Moma P found, it mentions "a similar but inferior material." Fetish carvings are extremely common at just about every powwow I've ever been to. I don't think your buying them is wrong either. Seemingly every NDN has bought a fetish bracelet for a small child, for example. Probably half the crafts tables have them. But then again, I'm not a carver or an artist. Somebody correct me if I'm mistaken.

Laurel

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 08:07:19 pm »
Laurel, I think the kind of pipestone yours are likely to be carved of are slightly different from that used at the Pipestone Quarry. If you look carefully at the material Moma P found, it mentions "a similar but inferior material." Fetish carvings are extremely common at just about every powwow I've ever been to. I don't think your buying them is wrong either. Seemingly every NDN has bought a fetish bracelet for a small child, for example. Probably half the crafts tables have them. But then again, I'm not a carver or an artist. Somebody correct me if I'm mistaken.

Educated Indian,

Thanks so much for your feedback.  I'd read the thread, but failed to absorb the info you reminded me of (Ph.D. work and teaching takes up most of my brain).  If the material for my two pipestone carvings was obtained improperly, I accept responsibility for rectifying the situation and for educating others.

Sorry I didn't read as closely as I should have.  (I teach English comp for cryin' out loud!!)

Laurel

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2007, 02:40:32 pm »
http://www.tolatsga.org/ojib.html

"In a tradition shared with the Ottawa and Potawatomi, the Ojibwe remember a time when they lived near an ocean. This may  have been the Atlantic near the gulf of the St. Lawrence, but more likely it was Hudson Bay. Sometime around 1400, the North America climate became colder, and the first Ojibwe, Ottawa and Potawatomi bands started to arrive on the east side of Lake Huron. "

"When the French had their first meeting the Saulteur in 1623, the Ojibwe were concentrated in the eastern half of upper Michigan."

"During their wars with the Iroquois, the Ojibwe pushed down both sides of Lake Huron and by 1701 controlled most of lower Michigan and southern Ontario. Following the French fur trade west during the 1720s, they moved beyond Lake Superior and into a war with the Dakota (Sioux) in 1737. During the next century, the Ojibwe forced the Dakota out of northern Minnesota and Wisconsin."

http://faculty.normandale.edu/~physics/Hollabaugh/Lakota/BriefHistory.htm
 "The term Sioux is itself derived from an Ojibwe term, nadouessioux , which means “little snakes??? or “enemies.???   This usage reflects the often hostile relationship between the Ojibwe (Anishinaabe, also known as Chippewa) and Sioux.   It is thought the Sioux people originally inhabited the Minnesota area, living a farming, hunting life, and were displaced  southward by the Ojibwe when the Ojibwe migrated west into Minnesota following the westward progression of the fur trade. "

http://www.marcinequenzer.com/white_buffalo_woman_story.htm
1 Red Stone is known as Calanite. It is found in only one place in the world, in Pipestone Minn. This valley has been a valley of peace where even bitter enemies called a truce in order to obtain the sacred stone. The stone is said to be made of the blood of the people. when the stone is worked the stone is said to smell of blood. At the quarry, the stone is covered with earth after some has been removed. They say that when they go back to get more stone that the stone taken before has been replaced. Because the stone IS the blood of the people, Traditionalists are adamant against selling it.

Reply #4 debbieredbear
Quote
On talking with the people there, the quarriers and the pipemakers, I found that many were CXhippewa who believe that the pipes etc are only sacred when made sacred.

If the Chippeway have a tradition of using Pipestone , it would be a more recent tradition than the tribes who originally occupied the area . Just the fact they were allowed to peacefully access an area in the territory of another tribe they called "enemies" or "little snakes", in order to share the gift of Pipestone , would seem to prove this Pipestone was not "just a rock". That the Chippewa were allowed peaceful access,  also proves this particular areas Pipestone was and is considered Sacred , even before anyone makes something and has a ceremony to make it Sacred.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 02:42:21 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2007, 02:01:12 am »
This first link gives some of the early history of colonization of the Pipestone area and quarry .
------
(edited to fix dead links and add additional info )

Pipestone Administrative History
CHAPTER II:
CLEARING FEDERAL TITLE 1858-1928
http://web.archive.org/web/20040905041939/www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/pipe/adhi2.htm

In the next link below , there is a history of how several Native families in the area of Pipestone MN , turned to selling souveniers and trinkets to tourists to make a living , and how this economic activity has been encouraged by the largely non native values of the National Parks Service . It also gives a detailed explanation of the conflicts that have come up , as this has grown into a cultural industry that desecrates the values of many traditionalists . 

CHAPTER VI:
"AN INDIAN-ORIENTED PARK": NATIVE AMERICANS AND THE MONUMENT
http://web.archive.org/web/20050906051350/www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/pipe/adhi6.htm

As this was written by the National Parks Service which controls the quarry ,  I think in some areas , the article might be a bit biased , but for the most part I found it really informative .

NPS article chap. 6
Quote
In 1986, the first inkling of a movement to restore the quarries to Native American hands surfaced. The National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) passed a resolution to prohibit the sale of objects and pipes made of pipestone. Their complaint was that the material from the quarries was sacred, and treating pipestone as a commodity instead of religious material was sacrilegious. The following year the Yankton Sioux took this concept further. Victor Provost, vice-chairman of the tribe, filed a petition with Senator Daniel K. Inouye of Hawaii, the chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs, that cited the American Indian Religious Freedom Act in an effort to wrest the monument from NPS control.

NPS article
Quote
The position of the Park Service differed from that of the Yankton Sioux. The organic legislation that established the monument preserved the right to quarry for all Indians, not just the Yankton.

NPS article
Quote
The legal settlement in 1928 extinguished Yankton claims to the land. As a result, religious traditions other than the Yankton were represented among quarriers at Pipestone. Some of these had no problem with the marketing of artifacts.

NPS article
Quote
The Yankton perspective dated from the end of the eighteenth century, when they established hegemony over the quarry and prevented others from using the stone.
 

NPS article
Quote
From the Park Service perspective, the agency served as a guardian of the place, preventing internecine cultural conflict from affecting its use. With the NPS at Pipestone, all Native Americans had equal access to the quarry.

NPS article
Quote
The Park Service had successfully maintained a neutral position in what had become an inter-Indian cultural dispute

I noticed this article repeatedly alleges that the Yankton Sioux , who were objecting to the commercial use of the Stone , had prevented other tribes from using the Stone .

This allegation seems to conflict with other information . For example ;

http://www.utulsa.edu/law/classes/rice/USSCT_Cases/Yankton_Sioux_v_US_272_351.htm

Yankton Sioux Tribe of Indians v.United States.No. 250.Argued Oct. 7, 1926. Decided Nov. 22, 1926

“The pipestone quarries are of great antiquity. There the tribes, from time immemorial, have been wont to gather, under solemn truce, to quarry the stone, which is of a quality and texture not found else *357 where, and mold it into pipes – the Indian symbols of peace. A great store of Indian myth and legend is associated with the spot, and it always has been regarded by the tribesmen with sentiments bordering upon religious reverence. “


http://www.pipestoneminnesota.com/museum/history2.htm

Another account was recorded by author George Catlin during his visit to the quarry in 1836:“At an ancient time the Great Spirit, in the form of a large bird, stood upon the wall of rock and called all the tribes around him, and breaking out a piece of the red stone formed it into a pipe and smoked it. He then told his red children that this stone was their flesh, that they were made from it, that they must all smoke to him through it, that they must use it for nothing but pipes; and as it belonged alike to all the tribes, the ground was sacred and no weapons must be used or brought upon it.???

It seems other tribes were always allowed to access this stone for religious purposes, and I am not sure why the NPS is alleging the Yankton prevented other tribes from doing this . The dispute mainly seems to be around using this Stone commercially . As the NPS has actively promoted this commercialization for decades , I don't think it is accurate for it to try and claim it is in a "neutral position" .

There is also quite a few people in the area , who descended from a Dakota family,  that made their living quarrying Pipestone and selling this and Pipes .

http://www.littlefeathercenter.com/

Unlike the "Keeper" group, these folks don't try and say the stone itself isn't Sacred , and instead they use this as a part of their sales pitch.

What they are doing is obviously controversial , as most of the website is dedicated to trying to defend selling Pipestone and Pipes . As Debbie mentioned , it must be really difficult for the current generation to understand , why people feel this is wrong , when their families have been doing this for generations .

I'm not sure when these sales became openly contentious , or what was thought of this when it first began .
--------
(edited to reduce rambling and include additional information )
I guess in any society there is different types of people , and some groups of people tend to be more Spiritually inclined than others so , I'm not sure it is right to try and say that the actions of a few impoverished people , who lived in a mostly non native community, and who went through the cultural disruption of being put through boarding schools , can rightly pointed to as an example of what Elders generally saw as the respectful way to distribute and use this stone .

Prior to the 1960's , most of the strangers who bought these items , would never have used them in an imitation of a Sacred Ceremony. Probably no one at the time could have imagined these commercially produced Pipes , being used in inappropriate ceremonies ,  would ever seriously intrude on the basic value structure of the culture .

There is also the fact that up until 1978 , it was illegal to Pray in traditional ways , so whatever people who retained their traditional values felt about commercialization , it is doubtful they would have felt safe to express those feelings .

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:kPyblWijxYMJ:www.sacredland.org/resources/bibliography/
Irwin.pdf+before%22Indian+Religious+Freedom+Act%22+Pipe&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=ca


“Perhaps the most suppressive laws regarding religious freedom were those promulgated by the Bureau of IndianAffairs for the Indian Courts, known as the Indian Religious Crimes Code. These laws were first developed in 1883 by Secretary of the Interior Henry Teller as a means to prohibit Native American ceremonial activity under pain of imprisonment.??? (con..)

“Medicine men—
Any Indian who shall engage in the practices of so-called medicine men, or who shall
resort to any artifice or device to keep the Indians of the reservation from adopting and following civilized habits and pursuits, or shall use any arts of conjurer to prevent Indians from abandoning their barbarous rites and customs, shall be deemed guilty of an offense, and upon conviction thereof, for the first offense shall be imprisoned for not less than ten days and not more than thirty days: Provided that, for subsequent conviction for such offense the maximum term or imprisonment shall not exceed six months.???


27
"Missionary zeal specifically targeted Native religions as the bane of all civilized Christian ideology. Subsequent missionary activities caused “fractions, feuds and schisms, discredited popular leaders and imposed new ones on the Indians and in scores of ways undermined and weakened the unity of the tribes.???
28
"Indian ceremonies were banned, religious practices disrupted, and sacred objects destroyed or confiscated "
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These people who are selling this stone say that their skills are needed to quarry the stone . The say because of the large amount of time and commitment to a particular quarry , the people who do this work , need monetary compensation to pay their living expenses for the time they spend working. If this is true , and these people who work in the quarries on a regular basis are the only people who have the necessary skills to access this stone , needing enough money to cover living expenses , when their time is taken up working at this , seems to be a very reasonable requirement . But this still doesn't explain why they are creating work for themselves that doesn't need to be done , by actively encouraging people who have no cultural need for a Pipe or Pipestone , to buy this anyways.

It sounds like this Dakota group might have more of a connection with the local traditional people, than the group which calls itself "The Keepers of the Sacred Tradition of Pipe Makers ". The descendants of the Dakota in the area , are at least attending council circles with recognized community Elders who have concerns about the commercialization that is happening .

http://littlefeathercenter.50megs.com/councilcircle.html

I think it is most important to support the traditional people who wish to see the protocols around the use of this Sacred Stone respected , but reading through all this , I can see it is a complicated situation , which gradually evolved over time , and there seems to be a lot of confusing gray areas .

The "Keepers" group is discussed in more detail in the link below ;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=332.0
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 02:14:58 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1415
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: Pipestone on eBay
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2007, 07:56:44 pm »
I have been out of town for a couple of weeks. All I know is the pipestone is sacred to us. I can not talk for other tribes. The pipestone is the blood of our people. We are taught not to abuse the stone. We don't use it is a bad way. We don't make earrings ect... out of it.
I can't talk for people who do these things. We had heard that people believe that it is ok to use the pipestone because it has not been blessed but we prefer not to use it other than prayer.
In Spirit