Quinnipiac Renapi

[woodowl]

The following edited post is currently making the rounds on Indian mailing lists, supposedly written by Tom "Big Warrior" Watts, but otherwise without attribution.  It describes the shabby treatment of an elderly man in prison, and sounds reprehensible, and the story is certainly plausible for prisons.  However, having never heard of the referenced tribe "Quinnipiac Renapi" which is supposedly from Connecticut, I did a websearch and could come up with only this website:  http://www.acqtc.com/tamanend04.php.
Check out the "membership" tab.  Anyone ever heard of these people?
PS: The purpose of this post is not to condone the torturing of prisoners, but its difficult to give credibility to the author when the facts about this tribe and its "early Connecticut" reservation seem to be so muddled.


*********
Please take action for this brother:

THE TORTURE OF CHIEF IRON THUNDERHORSE
by Tom Big Warrior

On June 7th, 2005, ranking officers of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice (TDCJ), at the Polunsky Unit in Livingston, Texas, attacked an elderly and legally blind inmate, Iron Thunderhorse,
while he was attempting to go to the chowhall. They knocked the glasses and UV shields from his face and sprayed chemical pepper spray directly in his eyes. They proceeded to spray him all over
with the chemical irritant, kicking him and wrenching his crippled arm behind his back.
(snipped)

Iron is the hereditary chief of the Quinnipiac Renapi, a branch of the greater Lenape Nation, whose homeland runs along the Quinnipiac
River in Connecticut. His people have the dubious distinction of being the first North American tribe to be placed on a reservation by the English settlers at New Haven, in the early 1600s.

(remainder snipped)

[AlaskaGrl]

http://www.acqtc.com/councils.php#section03

""ACQTC’s strongest Allies are the Lenni Lenape Nation known today as the Delaware. The TUELN (Traditionalist United Eastern Lenape Nation) and UELN (United Eastern Lenape Nation) both part of the Lenni Lenape Restoration Movement live, work, and celebrate with us as they have been doing for hundreds of years.

The Lenni Lenape and the Quinnipiac were part of a vast Confederacy known in the historical times as the Esopus / Siwanoag… which covered a region from the Quinnipiac Sachemdoms to the Catskill Mountains of New York and down the coast to the island known today as Manhattan.

The Lenape and Quinnipiac co-sponsor RHWS (Red Heart Warrior Society), which teaches the values of our culture to young people. The TUELN, UELN and RHWS can all be reached at:

TUELN / RHWS Home Office
PO Box 4362
Allentown, PA ? 18105""

"ACQTC is organized exclusively for charitable, educational, religious, and cultural purposes within the meanings of Section 501 (C)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, with Group or Subgroup status identification to include all programs, memberships and institutions under the purview of ACQTC"

-------------------------

The Texas Polunsky Unit is known for atrocities ? http://www.deathrow.at/welcometohell/

Linda.

[AlaskaGrl]

Taken from the below news group c2004
http://tinyurl.com/9ecj6

It is the second Appeal.

"Appeal to Assist in the Parole of Iron Thunderhorse "

Linda.

[woodowl]

Thanks, Linda.  I read the entire website, and the BSQ there seems very high to me.

Again, this query is NOT about what's happening to the elderly man in the Texas prison; that is totally plausible, as I said, and terrible.  

The query is about the legitimacy of a "tribe" that opens its membership to anyone, and holds regular "adoption" ceremonies.  So, does anyone have personal knowledge of anyone in this group?

[educatedindian]

Here's what a longtime AIM member told me about the rpoblems with many of the would be Lenape groups out there:


This post of Al's to me is more about these so called historical
society tribes that buy land make a sort of village have a powwow or
Intertribal Gathering and sell memberships in their own little
groups. They have no approval from the parent Nation or knowledge
unless it is out of a book or movie. The group is made up of various
tribal ancestry thus "intertribal" but these people join this
historical society or private group that bought land and now have
membership to their so called new tribe.They make up an Indian
sounding name and mix traditions big time. While they may have
Native american ancestry they follow the teachings of a so called
now Elder or Medicine person and the elected chief or clan mother.
These so called or self appointed leaders are pulling stuff out
their butts, not lifeways of a parent Nation but a mix and match
envious of any newager of their own creation and calling it customs.
They read out of anthro books ceremonies and have love offerings,
auctions and private gatherings for their faithful. There is alcohol
and drugs present around children. They convort among themselves
like they were single. Kinda sounds like a cult. And while there is
also out there tribal groups that have contact with parent Nations
and visit Oklahoma and Canada and learn the old lifeways, share in
ceremony with that Nation, connect by genealogy to that Nation these
groups have to compete for recognition with these self made new
tribes.

My understanding of recognition is, "a long standing of inherited
cultural involvement of continuing lifeways". These money groups so
called thenselves new tribes of various lineages blending what they
think is Native, but is in reality pan-Indian and no different than
an hobbist. They want to appear to be real except money is the
real deal and what they can get from and out of their members. The
menbership is made up of people seeking a connection to their past
Native lineage, but instead the members are fodder for a bunch of
greedy, leaving heartache when the faithful and trusting members
open their eyes to the fraud.

The way it was explained to me by a member of one of these groups is
that land is purchased privately or the historial group purchases
land then holds powwows this way gathering in members of long ago
ancestry. The goal is state recognition and the membership takes
themselves seriously that they belong or have a card in a Native
band of a Nation. The downside is that they self elect the owners as
chiefs/leaders and some of the powwows have a inside group of
dubious intent. Eyewitnesses have seen drugs and alcohol used when
the rules say none allowed. They call it "smoking the peace pipe"
which takes place privately among the adults and the drug used has
been around for a long time, though natural this country prohibits
it. But when a gathering says NO Drugs or Alcohol that is what it
should mean for All. This way when people that pay to attend and
bring children will have a safe visit and see a respected meeting of
people. Also an eyewitness at a PA. powwow silenced a fraud drum
group by placing an eagle feather on their drum, the drum was
covered in bird droppings it was disrespectly stored in a shed
without cover and tending. This makes the drum have no heartbeat for
the people to dance to. Such disrespect to a living drum! Again this
was at a historical society tribe's intertribal powwow.

[educatedindian]

Pt 2
Most intertribal vendors want to sell their crafts and they flaunt the wording Native American made. It would be hard pressed to find a vendor at these intertribal powwows that sat at an elders knee and
learned a handwork of generations ago. Dreamcatchers, those wool things that hang on walls, T shirts of prostrate scant clad maidens
and necklaces make use of plastic and shiny stuff galore. So the Native American Craft and Art law is there to protect Native Craft People and being ignored. Yet they would argue with you for they
have their non-recogized tribal card. Now that alone this need of
proof or a card or proof number is a very argued thing. And the idea
that Native People have to have cards like a pedigree on a
domesticated animal to prove who they are. Yet the Native American
Crafts and Art law was created to keep the fake and fraud out of the
market and the money to go back into the tribal community and for
the artists to live on. Yet years ago you bought things for the
beauty and craftmanship. No one signed their work or showed a card,
that is a modern thing. Artwork/craftmanship is a personal thing.
Each artist has their own style and puts into the piece their inner
talent. I can't argue that. But I can ? what is Native American made
traditional style and is it being made the same way the ancestors
would make it.

The powwows, and not all, but most of these powows are really a
private circus or fair and should be called such in my opinion, are
also disrespecting. What depresses me is hearing the complaints of
the attendees in emails. Some of the disrespect is laughable and
slight to downright dangerous by disrespect to the sacred. These
groups or bands and new tribes which they call themselves
intertribal tribes are not recogized by the Nations and the Nations
have complained and come down on them but to no effect. Below in
this post is a case- FLORIDA AIM FILES FRAUD COMPLAINT AGAINST BOGUS
TRIBE.
I would say I have mixed messages on these situations, one some of
these groups try to find the history, customs and ways by contacting
and visiting the recognized Nation of their ancestral lineage.
Others which are bogus and in reality are tied into a adult fun and
game role playing group take a book read out of it pretending to do
ceremony, hold raffles to make money, hawk pay memberships for money
and hold powwows for money. The money and where it goes only these
so called leaders know. The in-fighting is displayed at these so
called ceremonies and again they are disrespectful. An example is
one I heard about called "calling back the dead" reading a supposed
ceremony from a historical book by a Anglo author and passing this
off as the real thing for of course a love offering. I was stunned
by this rightly complaining email I received and complained loudly
back. Then was spammed by someone who thought I should say nothing.
Another email questioned a Sun Dance that was to take place in an
eastern state this summer and I told them who to contact.

Some groups while trying to bring together a heritage that has been
vaguely pasted down or has even been hidden, I feel for, but it
seems more of the take advantage of people's lineage is out there.
These groups that take advantage anyone would say stop them, but
clever they are and how do you? If the Nations can't stop them and
the law can't stop them. The word is beware and to get the message
out there. So people that are heartfelt about learning their
ancestors ways won't be taken advantage of or worse. And there is
worse. The people looking and searching grab hold and love it when
accepted and called brother or sister and feel part of the so called
society's new tribe. Give me a hug thing. Yet they are being fleeced
for as I hear the groups leaders who call themselves teachers and
elders are in it for the money, the self power and ego. How do you
spot when the gathering is bogus? A few of the emails I received
when the person said something or questioned an activity was then
soon kicked out or harrassed.

[educatedindian]

More from the same source:

I have seen their website and mulling over the ? you asked. They started out as one of those Historical Societies and have slowly over the last few years claimed a name of an area and give the impression they are a tribe and decended from. I do not know of their genealogy so if there is linage there it maybe from long ago and lack the teachings and ways. They of course can claim they have embraced them now and want to be recognized as Native Indian but to make a tribe up
of people and charge for membership in the historical society in Pa. is questionable. I will do some research for you. You know how I feel,
there are historical Nations that deserve recognition and don't have it given to them. Nations and tribes of long standing that have had
their ancestors that have taken that long long walk or have been assulted by colonialsm for over hundreds of years. These Nations and Tribes have suffered long to keep their lifeways. It seems anyone can make up a group of people and call it a tribe nowadays. There is nothing wrong with finding you ancestry and going about at any stage
in life to find the customs and ways, but embrace the father Nation of your lineage not make up your own tribe. With that in mind they are just historical socities dishonoring the ancestors who stayed together and paid a long hard price. They usually mix and match customs, they take their ways out of books written by Anglo missionaries and anthros.
They do not show honor or obey the old laws. And they do not act or think like the elders or leaders of past generations. These things are taught from little and it is what they lack the most.

[educatedindian]

Some more discussions and opinions on the would be tribes in Pennsylvania, the QR and other would be Lenape groups, and Doris Riverbird Woman, all of it passed onto me. I've added numbering to make it clear when another person is speaking.

-----

1. Below in this post has over 20 people and their
opinions. This information was gathered as an exchange of emails and phone calls discussing valid questions of why these things are going on and allowed to continue. The question remains Why? Excuses we have heard. The statements without names and name withheld were included as more information pertaining to this post. The reasons are they did not want backlash from these people or their followers nor threats.Though their information shows more of what is going on, the reasons that they are afraid to say anything or have said something and were told to leave or watch out to
silence them.

2. There is an old woman conducting ceremonies in English so people assume it is a legit ceremony done by ndns, it was not touted as newage, it was not advertised as newage but as a Native American Indian ceremony done by her people.

3. A big drum is being disrespected in many ways it is not taken care of, protected or honored.
This is what a respected drum is thought of-
The respected drum brings the heartbeat of our Mother Earth to the People for all to feel and hear. Drumming brings everyone back into balance. Whether dancing, singing, or just listening, the drum connects with good feelings.

The loud beats during the songs, sometimes called
"Honor Beats" are a time for dancers to honor the
drum. We have a lot of respect and we take care of the drum. We honor the big drum by covering it when not in use and feeding the voice. The drumkeeper is a drummer that knows the big drum is not to be dishonored. The drum to us is not a symbol but a living voice. It means a lot to our people. The drum beat is the heartbeat of our people. When a dancer raises a feather or fan during a dance, it is to honor the drum. If you listen carefully, you'll note the change in tempo and beat during the "honor" beats of a song. There are other drums but the big drum carries our voice to the sky, it is the connection of Mother Earth, us and the Sky. The big drum is male and is our connection to the sacred power, women have their own strong power by nurturing, giving birth and monthly. Men have very little power but by drumming and dancing. The drum has power respect that. Rex

4. The right way-
From a PA. state tribe-
We gathered the stories and started language courses. In the meantime the members  were researching their genealogy, history, traditional dress, dances, games, crafts, and language.  A dance team was formed and practiced seriously.

This I can respect, not all eastern tribes are
historical societies that should stay that way.  Bee

5. Thoughts from other ndn people on the web-

Pennsylvania seems to be one of the states that is a hotbed of "wannabe" activity with leaders who take up some parts of American Indian ceremonies and add bits and pieces from other religions and then teach this as tradtional from a parent Nation that has nothing to do with them since 11 generations ago. In 1792 Pennsylvania declared it's self free of the Indian problem.

Leaders and Elders should be able to speak their
tribe's language they should be able to communicate in their Native tongue.

Assimilation is losing more than cultural identity it
is losing lifeways.

Naming ceremonies for a fee and joining a ndn Nation for a fee sounds like a club.

"On one level," says acclaimed Poet and former AIM
Activist, John Trudell, "you've got all these people
running around trying to be somebody they're not, and they're making a fast buck at it. Anyone who goes around claiming to be the spiritual master, the
spiritual teacher, the spiritual anything, anyone who
goes around waving the banner about how spiritual they are, see how responsibly they behave."

Selling ceremony should get you in the Hall of Shame and listed as a fraud of ndn culture, ceremonies are naming and adoptiion, there not to be sold.

The real traditional people and elders of many Native American tribes never, and again we repeat never, sell their culture and traditions for monetary gain.    
http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/frauds/index.htm

See  how responsibly they behave and respect
traditional ways passed down by their ancestors are they respecting their ways or guessing no one will know the difference. We know the difference and it runs from laughable to highly disrespectful. Shame.

[educatedindian]

Cont'

6. David Gurule wrote-"Do we allow it to be filled with more fake spirituality, more bogus "traditions" of the People, or do we take back what is rightfully ours?"

David-"I have also researched this Grandmother Doris, her websites, and it appears to me that she is also defrauding our people.  I say it appears to me  that is what is going on. Maybe I do not understand the overall ways of the People here in the east.  But from what I have learned from my elders back west, this type of thing is not done.  Elders don't have websites, mix traditions, have naming ceremonies and adoptions (for a small fee) it seems to me not of a nation but a plastic one.   I know by asking these last few statements and stating of what I have learned I may ruffle some feathers. Out west where I come from adoption and naming ceremonies are not taken lightly,
are not public, and there is no charge nor are they
advertised on a websites. The elders take up to a year or more to get to know the person before there is an adoption or naming ceremony, even at that it a very solemn occasion, again not advertised on a websites.

Before anyone here tells me to go back out west, that is not the point, the point is our traditions and
culture are under attack everywhere.  I speak as a
traditional Apache man. And weather I live here or out west it makes no difference.  I am speaking as I see things.  I have experienced several new age powwow's here... I have also met several people that seemly can change their Nation at will, either you are or your not of a nation. Grandmother's I know are treated with respect, but they have earned that respect and not everyone can call them "grandmother".  I realize culture and traditions  in the east are different than the west but basic traditions are the same and we do
not sell those."

7. Bee wrote- "Anyway maybe they haven't seen the side of Doris that does English only ceremonies and dishonors the big drum of the community. But if they were adopted by her then maybe they have to defend that."
-------------------------
Red lights are flashing warnings stop before you go
and waste money on bogus ndn groups, do not pay to pray.

8. Ray wrote
"Doris RiverBird Woman is the Turtle Clan Mother of
the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania, the Eastern Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania, the Traditional United Eastern Lenape Nation "

Red light here, aren't these the same nations
Littlesoldier claimed to be chief of.
http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=664

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005
Oh? Please explain this quotation from Sir Little
Soldier's website, speaking of the passing of Bill
Thompson:  

"He was only one of two that I left  the tribe in the
care while I was away on other projects and to handle projects in the Western Division of the tribe. We learned of the passing while at his peoples Pow Wow in eastern Pa. I was there on a meeting with other Lenape leaders there and to visit GRANDMOTHER of the Susquehanna, DORIS RIVER BIRD WOMAN."

Nothing to do with him? Now, you can tell me LS was an uninvited guest, but I KNOW he was a major figure in these Pennsylvania groups at one time, despite the fact that they're trying to distance themselves from him, now.

As for Doris: She might be the nicest, kindest, most
wonderful woman in the world; but, she is NOT a
traditional Lenape. A person who teaches clockwise
dancing, Father Sun, Grandmother Moon, singing the Walam Olum at solstice celebrations, and countenancing dances like the "Turtle Island Chautauqua Two-Step," is NOT--I repeat--NOT a traditional Lenape!
It's that simple.

Ray Whritenour
http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=664&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=1c0ea42a6c08e283b4665de8555bf834

In any case, Witapanoxwe, in the 1920's, and Nora
Dean, in the 1970's, told us that the Moon is regarded by Lenapes as an "elder brother." Doris RiverBird Woman tells us that the Moon is a "Grandmother." Which one of these statements is a "fact"? And if, as you say, there is a difference, then which statement represents the "truth"?

I know who I believe.
http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=664&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
----------------------
One who knows
Wed May 18, 2005 -
SOME people did not intentionally try to discredit
things. I belong to a lot of the lenape groups you
belong to too. FYI when I posted that Littlesoldier
said he was coming to one of the ELN meetings I was told they would have nothing to do with him. Then when I found out he was there I had no further contact, their choice not mine. Not one email returned.

1. It is never wrong to question or investigate if you
doubt something or feel uneasy.
2. If I am one of the ones that spend their time
discrediting people, you have no clue sir what I am
about or what I've been through!
3. We asked questions. Plain and simple.
4. LITTLESOLDIER does have dealings with Pennsylvania Lenape.
http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=664&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=1c0ea42a6c08e283b4665de8555bf834

[educatedindian]

DRW's words. The song you gotta see to believe:

Doris RiverBird Woman writes:

"With all the versatility of religions 2,000 years ago
- some Europeans and Asians must have had a similarity of religion which was prevalent in the North American Continent at that time. After all, most of the First Peoples of this continent believed in One God and so did a few diverse people in Europe and Asia."

"The First Peoples of this continent believed that all
things came from this one supreme being as did some of the Europeans and Asians at that time."
http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=664&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

I'm still sitting here trying to get over reading the
Turtle Island Chautauqua Two-Step this morning.
_________________

Guest
Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 12:46 pm      

Ah, yes! "The TIC 2-step," by Paul Tobacco "Jim
Morrison" Cashman!

===============
The song below sounds like a 49 song that should be done after at night around adults only, not during a powwow.
======================
The song-
Website
http://www.turtleislandchautauqua.org/index.html

Turtle Island Chautauqua Two-Step
Turtle Island Chautauqua Women

WOMEN:
Come on Baby light my fire
Fill my heart with much desire
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

MEN:
Even on the darkest night,
Your love is like a shining light
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

WOMEN:
Give me kisses sweet galore
Make me want them more and more
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

MEN:
Honey, I love kissing you
Your lips are like the morning dew.
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

WOMEN:
Hug me like a big black bear,
Make me lose all my cares.
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

MEN:
Honey, I will take all your cares
And we will become a pair
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

WOMEN:
You make my heart go all aflame,
Why don’t you give me your name?
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

MEN:
Baby since I love you so
Down the aisle we will go
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

WOMEN:
Make my heart go ding-a-ling
Third left fingers for a ring
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

MEN:
You make my life complete you see
Honey, will you marry me
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

WOMEN:
The drumbeat makes my heart go wild
I would love to have your child
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

MEN:
Yes, Sweetheart since your the one.
I will give you a son
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

WOMEN:
Once you said grown old with me
Now it has come to be
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

MEN:
Now the kids have grown away
We can watch grandchildren play
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O

ALL:
Come on Baby light my fire
Fill my heart with much desire
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
Way Ah Hi Way Ah Hi O
http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=664&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

[educatedindian]

More debate about DRW:

For years now the Eastern Lenape Nation (Doris, Tom Big Warrior and others are part of that group) people left because of all the adoptions and strange things that were going on.
About Doris it's hard to make excuses on her.
Adoptions here in the east seem to run rampant at
times, what with every one adopting their friends into nations that many times aren't legitimate in anyone's eyes.  The same with names, if you don't have one, make it up for yourself.
------------------------------------
Selling culture: A question for Doris.

http://www.yogaville.org/Programs/Workshops/Coming_Together.php

Coming Together on Turtle Island
A Weekend Celebrating Native American Culture, Stories and Traditions
with Grandmother Doris and Others
July 15 - 17, 2005
Come, bring just yourself or bring your entire family,
and experience this special weekend celebrating Native American culture, stories, myths, wisdom, recipes and much more. Let Native American Clan Mother Grandmother Doris guide you.

On Friday night we will get to know each other by
coming together around a bonfire. After introductions, Grandmother will begin the program by telling us stories of the Native Americans, reflecting the philosophy of her people.

Throughout the weekend we will enjoy the taste of
Native foods, learn a few Native American crafts,
participate in a special sunrise ceremony and listen
to the heartbeat of the Earth Mother incorporated into the music of the Native American through the drum, flute and other instruments. We will all join with our Native American hosts in beating their clan's "Big Drum" and learn some of their songs and chants.

The ancient Native Americans believed that the world as we know it is nothing but a small island carried on the back of a large turtle. Grandmother Doris will bring several representatives from different Native American tribes: Lenape, MicMac, and Cherokee, who will be available to discuss the culture of their people personally or in groups.

Cost: includes tuition, accommodations and all
vegetarian meals.
Dormitory: $275
Private Room Shared Bath: $330
Private Room Private Bath: $370
Tentsite: $220
Price per child: $95
Note: Children must stay with their parent(s) either
in a private room or a tentsite/cabin.

Program Registration: ONLINE
By phone in USA call: 1.800.858.YOGA (9642)
By phone International call: 1.434.969.2048
For More Information:
USA call: 1.800.858.YOGA (9642)
International call: 1.434.969.2048
eMail: ARC@Yogaville.ORG

Doris RiverBird Woman is the Turtle Clan Mother of
the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania, the Eastern Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania, the Traditional United Eastern Lenape Nation and the Turtle Island Chautauqua. She was raised in her early years by her grandmother, Anna Clark, who was born on the Cornplanter Reservation in northern Pennsylvania. Her grandmother left the reservation at an early age and married a Lenape man and followed the ways of the Lenape people. Doris attended Monmouth College in Long Branch, New Jersey
majoring in Chemistry and English, and then taught
Comparative Religion for the Lutheran School system.
===========================

"We will all join with our Native American hosts in
beating their clan's "Big Drum" and learn some of
their songs and chants."
They are making their big drum into a whore.
===============
David- "I realize culture and traditions  in the east
are different than the west but basic
traditions are the same and we do not sell those."
" Doris, I hope you have seen those websites I put
links too .  Can you explain how the Yoga master and Native American ways and spirituality go
together?  Even if it is a teaching of our ways, when put together with the prices that he was offering for the event it sure sounds to me like
selling our culture.  Even if that was not your intent
it come across on that website as such."

"Should not all ceremony be done in the language of the ceremony, as in your case Lenape? Elders I know can speak thier nations language fluently."
---------------------------------------------------
Bee-
" If Doris wanted to be positive she would not conduct a ceremony in only English and have a auction afterwards. She would not conduct any ceremony it is not her place to do so, for she does not know what she is doing when she uses English and reads from a book.
The good she does in schools or at the teaching table they have at the website, is good only as long as it is general historic knowledge. The things she does at her made up ceremonies are beyond that border and who knows what is being unleashed. "

David-
"Those are her words, not mine.  However I have to
have the same misgivings.  Have you heard of Arvol
LookingHorses's and the Lakota's declaration of
ceremony?  Yes, I know you are not Lakota and have your Lenape ways, however all elders should go by this to stop the corruption of native ways.  I have heard the same spoken of other Elders in other nations saying the same thing. "

[educatedindian]

More debate:

Doris's reply-
From: Susqueh@aol.com
Date: 05/23/05 10:57:50
Selling culture: A question for Doris.

I will be glad to answer those questions!!!

Firstly, I do NOT do ceremonies!!!  Never said I
did!!!!   But, isn't it  true that the prayers that are in your heart are the ones that  count.  Not the
prayers that come from your mouth???

The spirituality of all peoples are pretty much the
same.  The  religions (or how one practices his or her spirituality) may differ. I have found that
the spirituality of the Lakota and the Lenape and the Cherokee  are all tied  together in the belief of the Creator.  Even though they speak different
languages.
Doris

=================
David's reply-
"Well Doris,  You did not answer all my questions,
just the one with doing ceremony. Well I have from a very good source and I will keep her/his name
confidential for now, unless he/she wants me to
release it.  It seems that you have done naming
ceremonies, a wedding, and a Feast of the Dead?
Adoptions..   I suspect these were all done in
English?    Just because you may state you don't do
ceremony, That in of itself may be true ,  was it
because they were all fake?  Just using double speak huh?

You also did not address the websites I placed here, especially the one dealing with
Satchidananda Ashram.   I noted the prices to come to this night with you as the key speaker.  Prices from $95.00 for a child, then going up to $370 dollars for a private room and private bath.   Per person !! It crosses my mind that you will be paid for this."

--------------------------
David- "As long as our culture is under attack, they
should care.  Because white people come to powwows and see this stuff and think it's all part of our culture. So they go away from a public powwow not really knowing what we as a people are. Others say just stay away, from all these powwow's and I accept that reasoning, but does staying away just say to these frauds, moneymakers, etc that they can continue to
debase our culture?  That they have nothing to fear
from those that object to what they are doing?  If
there are so called elders, leaders in central
Pennsylvania, then where are they in this fight
against the debasement of our culture?  If people
really interested in teaching non-Indians about our
culture and ways would get together, meet at these so called events and show those attending that we object against what is happening, write letters to local papers about these events and saying they are shams and not to attend , then maybe they can make an inroads to slowing down these events."  
"Since you state you do not do ceremony Doris, then who if not you is conducting the special sunrise ceremony?   It sure sounds like you are leading this Native American "experience".     Again your words and what I have as fact are two different things. Who is telling the truth?  This website that has your bio and facts on you, and what you are doing at this yoga thing or your words earlier to me that you have not done ceremony.

Who is teaching these people to drum and on their
"clans" big drum and learn some songs and chants? I was taught that the drum is sacred.  Heartbeat of Mother Earth, yet you or whoever is leading this fiasco is allowing let just anybody beat on the "clan" drum? Are these chants in Lenape? Cherokee? or English yet again? Drum groups I know of do not let just anybody touch their drum, much less drum on it.  I find this abhorrent.

All I want is the truth.  Believe me I can handle it.
It is the untruth that makes me see red flags
concerning you or anything you are connected with."

[educatedindian]

More debate:

reply from Doris-
Susqueh@aol.com
Date: 05/25/05 17:14:13

Some rebuttal to Doris and her answer to my questions.

"The "Feast of the Dead Ceremony" was conducted by Chief Chuck Demond of the  Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.  

I have notified the Ashram that I am NOT going to be in attendance. Because when I saw their website this was not the intention of what we were supposed to be doing there.

I feel that any ceremony, whether in language or NOT in the language of the originators of the ceremony, should NEVER be done for the PUBLIC.  Ceremony is to me a private and personal thing, and in should only be done in conjunction  with others. Ceremony, to me, is the religious aspect of  spirituality. And I do NOT preach or even discuss religion with others."
=====================
A call to the Yogaville at  1.800.858.YOGA (9642)
representitive Robert confirmed that Doris Riverbird
Woman Pieschel did in fact show up with the big drum and conduct the Sunrise Ceremony. So well received that they hope to have her come back again.
-----------------------------
Doris's reply again-

"This is the final word I shall say!!!!

First of all: I have never called myself a clan
mother. I have been made a clan mother by others. But I do not go around beating my chest and saying "Look, here I am."

I have NEVER told anyone they must do or feel the same way I do or feel. If someone asks me something, I just tell them what I would do and  usually say that is good for me, but may not be good for you.

With regard to mixing cultures!!!!  The people of the
Turtle Island Chautauqua is proud to say they are the People of Many Nations!!! It shows how we
all can work together. The Turtle Island Chautauqua
does NOT claim to be Lenape, or Cherokee, or Lakota. But there are many who come to  our gatherings (for which there is NO CHARGE) who are Lenape, Cherokee and Lakota.

I honestly don't know what questions I haven't
answered with regard to myself. I don't even know how I got into this conversation to begin with. It is
MY belief (and I emphasize MY) that the only entity I
have to please is the Creator; not a Chief, not any individual. I try to answer in the fairest manner that which I truly believe, but it is MY belief, not necessarily yours. I am not a missionary of the 1600's and later who believes you must do it MY
way.  

With so many problems that our people have, it is
truly a shame that all this rhetoric must be wasted on me."
----------------------------
David-
"It is my opinion you and others probably do not even know the orgins of pan-Indianism. Respected Elder? who? Doris? When I just out of curiousity looked up what  was going on around here and all this comes up with what she was connected with.  All I put out was facts.  Facts from websites that anyone can lookup. I was asked where I got my information. I put it on here.  Then other people have contacted me and They tell me things, some of them horrid that again happened at the TIC, and other places associated with Doris. Wouldn't that make you think twice about the so-called respected elder status? We saw things in our first trip to one
of her gatherings at Ephrata. It was those things that gave us second thought to never come back. Disrespect of the drum, disrespect of the circle
whether it was blessed or not.  One of which will
forever stay etched in my mind."

[educatedindian]

More debate"

When people ask valid questions-
THE THREAT-
From: Paul Talbot
Date: 05/25/05 22:40:31
Some rebuttal to Doris and her answer to my
questions.

David!! Kris!! I'm curious...

What happens to people "out west" when they attack a recognized and respected elder with the kind of vitriol and sarcasm you are currently
spewing?

Walk gently friends; you are getting way out of your
league here.
----------------
Kris's reply-
"well paul...since we have moved here from that
dreaded "out west", we have heard much about doris and her followers..some good, some not so good..and since we have been finding out more and more about her that seems to point to her not being so respected , i will answer your question this way...
our elders "out west" do not hunger for power..(someone said doris is very powerful and influential in this area of Pa..) they do not seek recognition.
they do not go on the internet and align themselves
with Yogi's and other cultures and ways...they do not mix and match Nations' culture and traditions so they can call themselves "clan mother" and elder...they do not seek publicity on tv or in the public...they dont seek the limelight AT ALL!
they know who they are, and dont switch Nations at will or to suit their own personal purpose...i am used to being around REAL ndn people..traditional
indian people..this area is sadly deficient of both...
our Elders are humble..they work behind the lines for their people..they dont teach perfect strangers and non indian people, our traditions and ways,
much less in public!! at a Museum, Art Center, or
powwow...they dont do naming ceremony, adoptions, or marriages or Feasts of the Dead? unless they know you very well..and than only after MUCH thought and consideration..and
they NEVER, EVER, charge for thier healing, help or
advice...NEVER. they also dont lie.
so..to answer your question? we dont disrespect our elders when we know who they are..when their families fought with Sitting Bull, Geronimo, and Crazy Horse...when the whole indian community knows them and their families. I would assume it is the same with the Longhouse Peoples here..with the Cherokee..with the true Lenape peoples...
Doris is NOT an elder to me...she is not someone i
either respect or care to know after we have gotten many emails telling us their experiences with her and her "Clan"....
as for attacking her? i believe david sent you the
links he found that she associated herself with...her denials mean nothing when those websites are up and running and her name is on them..
can you not read? or are you blinded by this faux
indian movement and business..for profit. she never did answer davids questions..and i really
dont care anymore... i am feeling very uncomfortable here, being with folks who defend such a person... to me you have alligned yourself with what you long for..a place in the ndn community and an indian identity..so you will grasp at any straw.
i feel sorry for you. and dont you dare threaten me, or tell me to walk "gently"...i will walk on the path i have been born to, and have chosen to walk..as MY elders have taught me."

[educatedindian]

Evidence about the TIC/ELN, faux Lenapes:

http://www.turtleislandchautauqua.org/index.html
Members of the Turtle Island Chautauqua and The
Eastern Lenape Nation Family are of many different
philosophies, cultures, and religions. We live in
cities, among the trees, on farms, near the water and in the suburbs. Our community stretches across several States. We work in factories, schools, at home, in stores, outdoors and in offices. We are artists, writers, musicians, teachers, conservationists and Earthkeepers. We are grandmothers, grandfathers, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, teenagers and children. Each of us is unique and special in our own right.

Collectively, known as Turtle Island Chautauqua and the Eastern Lenape Nation, we have a common focus. Through teaching, art, music, storytelling, dance, singing, and drumming, we encourage respect for the Earth and the “People??? through dialogue among all peoples.

http://www.turtleislandchautauqua.org/links.html
Links
Earth Vision Weavers
Environmental issues, Native American concerns, and world peace are their musical themes. An enchanting blend of Native American flutes, world drums and percussion, smooth guitars, and beautiful female vocals invite listeners on a mystical journey.The unique sound of the band weaves their Native roots with classic rock, world music, and an indigenous cultural perspective.
Band Bios

Nadine, Beautiful Shining Woman - Nadine Bergeron is the singer for EVW, and she also plays Native American flutes, keyboards, and percussion....She grew up in Dallas and New Orleans, a "Cajun girl" with Mi'kmac Indian roots....Nadine became fascinated by world cultures, mythology, and religions in college, and continued her search through reading and joining goddess circles and medicine wheel ceremonies in California. It was at an amazing harvest moon medicine wheel in Pleasanton, CA near the San
Francisco Bay, where during a shamanic journey she had a vision of an Indian man in a cave, "Shining Stick", who told her she was "Beautiful Shining Woman"! She learned drumming and goddess chants with the "Sisters
of the Moon" lodge there as well. In 1994, she moved to southeast Pennsylvania, and formed her own womyn's ecstatic moon circle in West Chester. Now she leads WOMYN DRUM monthly, singing, drumming, dancing, and bringing healing energy for our mother, the earth!
Nadine was in a tribal belly-dancing troupe for 5
years at Heart of the Goddess. She is also a healer,
using Reiki, herbal wisdom, shamanic drumming, and other sound therapies for individuals, and she
provides music therapy at Elwyn, Inc. for disabled
seniors every week in Media, PA.

Adani Quiet Thunderwolf, named by Chief Carl
Nighteagle of the Lenape Nation, was born as Charles Todd and grew up in the woodlands of Chester County.... After an illness that claimed most of his hearing in one ear, he was drawn to a Medicine Wheel book by Kenneth Meadows that sparked a life change. He stopped living a toxic party life and began his spiritual path, the path of his ancestors. (Adani had been told in his early teens that he had Indian blood of both Cheyenne and Ojibwa, along with a Celtic background of Scottish and Irish.) In 1988, Adani co-founded the heavy metal band Faithful Servant...Adani decided it
was time for a big musical change. He placed an ad to find musicians for a new band at Chester County Books & Records, where Nadine saw it and responded! Together they developed a new sound: Earth Vision Weavers!
http://www.turtleislandchautauqua.org/holocaust.html