What about to do with Frauds and Plastics?

[Greenwood]

I have a rather important question hanging around my thoughts recently. Let's face the fact - when we have marked one Fraud or Plastic-Shaman, what now?

In germany for example there are not many around fluently in english and many less who actually read this board. What can be done when there is an obvious faker around or a plastic? It is definitely not enough to kick their a... in the WWW because they can simply ban or do something else which can be accomplished with few mouse-clicks.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

[earthw7]

It would be a good ideal to inform people that they
are not relatived in anyway to Tribal people. Spread
the word. Confront them

[Greenwood]

I am thinking about a kind of "hall of shame"-html where I am listing various notorious Frauds here in germany - there are plenty of them listed already here in NAFPS but here in germany not many know this forum or are fluent in english. As I have written my Website is quite frequently visited (20.000 Clicks at 900 sessions per day). Since three or so months I am restructuring and rewriting many sections there and a new section dealing with NewAgeFrauds is a possible way I think: Most users (more then 60 Percent) finding me use Searchengines like Google. I would refer to this Forum in an introductory text with a link.

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

 

[educatedindian]

Something like that is a good idea, and badly needed. But as we see in the thread, there's still a lot for you to learn about what sources to trust. Don't be afraid to ask questions.

Perhaps you should look for others you can work with?

A couple Wall of Shame pages out there.

http://shameons.bravepages.com/
http://www.hanksville.org/sand/intellect/newage.html
http://ca.geocities.com/dont_pay_to_pray/links.html

Here's one in Australia I hadn't seen before.
http://dumbartung.org.au/freedom.html

[Greenwood]

Guess why I am still here *g*. It is a fruitful discussion we do, as long as we remain in respect of each other. My reputation as beig uncomfortable to those Wannabes is already established: I was kicked out of most of their forums and I myself banned all of these plastics when they tried to register in my german forum. They really have a problem with me, and I do not want to disappoint them *evilgrin*

Yours,

Neil Greenwood

[Skully]

When in doubt, knock 'em out.

[earthw7]

I don't think that is the answer, we have to be able to handle this in a cultural ways which is shaming and confront them with the truth

[LittleOldMan]

Eventhough one would like to sometimes introduce them to a slap up agin the haid that might just bring on more trouble.  I tend to more agree with Earth7 shaming or even shunning can be more effective.  However one must be sure of your knowledge before you start to correct them.  It therefore becomes necessary that you yourself are speaking from a  rock solid cultural position.  The people that you are speaking to must recognize that you do know what you are talking about.  It also helps if you are  an Elder or at least have one nearby.  Just my two cents.  :LittleOldMan"

[earthw7]

I agree
and to do nothing is wrong too

[Moma_porcupine]

One problem is that exploiters often do what they do, far away from the people who would know what they are doing is wrong, and far away from Elders who have enough authority to say this.

Trisha's webpage go-hi-yu-hi had a large collection of articles and statements by Elders and Native rights activists speaking out on how to identify cultural abuse that was really helpful.

She was harassed into shutting this down, but the page of articles can still be found in the web archives below, and is a really valuable resource when there is no Elders around to speak for themselves.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm

What might be a really helpful project would be if the NAFPS members who live in Native communities could go to the Elders in their own community and ask if these Elders would be willing to make a public statement with their name attached to it on things like the traditions around charging for ceremony or healing, advertising, mixing ceremonies, conducting traditional ceremonies outside of the context of the Native community, or whatever else they see going on that is disintegrating the culture.

If these statements were then transcribed and put on a webpage like the go-hi-yu-hi list of articles,  that would be really helpful as an authorative point of referrence for people who live outside of a Native community but who are struggling to protect people from exploiters and/or traditional cultural norms.     

Outspoken people like Richard Allen of the CNO are really helpful in dealing with Cherokee Shameons and I really appreciate the tribes that actually post this information on their webpage, like the CNO. Information like this on a tribal website is really helpful.

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/CulInfo/FAQ/83/Default.aspx

How do I find a Cherokee Medicine Man?
Although there are many practicing medicine men and women today, they do not advertise, nor do they solicit clients. In addition, they do not charge set fees for their services.

If you are a traditional Cherokee, who believes and lives the Cherokee way, you will be familiar with who these people are, or will know others who will lead you to one. Also, Cherokee acquaintances (aunts, uncles, neighbors) may refer you if they are aware of your need.

We are not at liberty to suggest such an individual.

[frederica]

"One problem is that exploiters often do what they do, far away from the people who would know what they are doing is wrong, and far away from Elders who have enough authority to say this".[/quote]

I think that is very true, may be why people go to Europe and other places. Mostly what I see recently is that they do not even speak for themselves. Others speak for them. This makes you think they have no real ties to any Nation. At least to be influenced by Elders.  And some of the Elders these people speak of have no ties to a Nation. They are just old. What Earth and LOM say is what needs to be done. That is why here I think problems Nation specific are dealt with by people from that Nation. But statements by Nation's elders would always be helpful. Just not sure how many Traditional Elders you will find on the internet.

[LittleOldMan]

Frederica:  I read this site at least twice a day in order to keep up with what is out there.   I post very  little and only when I think that what I have to say may be helpful.  For many years I have attended local powwows and festivals, there I have encountered much that is incorrect in regards to tradition and culture.  Very rarely have I encountered the shame/on down here in the Southeast.  I know that they are out there but I just do not encounter them in my regular habitat.  That is why this site is so valuable as a resource. It is a good place to go and inquire.  Though I do not encounter then directly I do see their scat and can trail them by that.  What I do encounter a lot though, are the thin bloods who for what ever their reasons are attempting to "reconnect" with the Native Culture.  Sometimes their reasons are pure and honest a quest for knowledge to complete their family history.  Other times some just want to see what they can get "fat takers".  It is among both of these where I find the Frauds spoor.  I guess I am lucky I have two Northern Cheyenne(Sp) Elders to whom I can turn as well as several Cherokee Elders all who are more than able and ready to aid me in gently guiding the miss informed toward the correct path.  The fact that I am sixty one also helps some.  There is one fact that should shout loudly to any one with any sense though.  Any ceremony weather it is The Lords Supper at a Baptist Church, a Cherokee Stomp, or a Lakota Sweat if it is not done within it's cultural setting and done by their qualified leaders the ceremony is not worth two cents and under some conditions can even be harmful.  Sorry that this is so long they tell me I sometimes ramble.  Again thank you for listening.  I am "LittleOldMan"   

[frederica]

Nicely daid, and I agree.

[Leonard]

Is there any way to 'flag' or 'tag' any of the documented and verified 'fraud' from threads on this web-site ?

What I had in mind is there any way to make it so that when ever a person does a 'google' on a fraudulent site that the search-engine would also bring up threads here such that the seeker would have additional information from here to make an informed decision ?

Leonard.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Yes, they're in the 'Frauds' section.