NAFPS Forum
General => Frauds => Topic started by: Ingeborg on December 18, 2009, 10:33:32 pm
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Devalon Small Legs Long Time Traveling (sometimes the first names are mentioned as 'Devalon James') is a member of the Blackfoot Pikuni nation and apparently has been selling seminars and ceremonies like sweatlodges and vision quests in different European countries for a number of years now. Small Legs also organizes annual Sun Dances in Germany and/or Hungary. He does not have his own website, but the ceremonies get published on websites maintained by his students/customers, in nuage forums etc. Here is some of what I found during my research:
http://www.wege-zur-mitte.net/index.php?devalon
Vision quest and sweatlodge rituals with the Indian medicine man Devalon Small Legs:
Short info regarding procedings:
May 15 start: 4 p.m. With a sweatlodge ceremony
May 16 teachings all day, another sweatlodge ceremony in the evening
May 17 participants will be accompanied to a place in the mountains
May 17-21 vision quest – accompanied by Devalon
May 21 in the morning: final sweatlodge with common meal.
Long Time Travelling (Devalon Small Legs) is a medicine man of the Blackfoot-Piikuni from Alberta/Canada. He has experienced the vision quest on his path many times himself. It is a basis of ancient shamanic rites.
On his path, Long Time Travelling brought this ceremony with him to Europe and passes it on as a part of creator's teachings. Through his work he found many hidden places also here in Europe which are suited for vision quests.
Leader of the seminar: Devalon Small Legs – medicine man of the Blackfoot Indians
Date: The date planned for May 2009 had to be postponed as Devalon had to return to Canada urgently, as the government there threathens to take the land away from Indians in the reservation.
Place: in the Allgaeu mountains
Fee: Euro 495.00 – price may vary according to number of participants
http://www.wege-zur-mitte.net/index.php?schwitzhuettenrituale_mit_devalon
Devalon Small Legs is leading sweatlodges for more than 30 years. His songs and actions during the ceremony are very powerful and touch deeply.
Personal conversation prior to sweatlodge.
Every person may have a private conversation with the medicine man prior to the sweatlodge to speak about their issue.
[...]
Seminar leader:
Devalon Small Legs, medicine man of the Blackfoot Indians, Canada
Both from his maternal and from his paternal side, his ancestors were great medicine men and women.
Date: Friday, December 04, 2009 from 2 p.m.
Sunday, December 6, 2009 from 11 a.m.
Place: Sulzberg-Ried
Fee: Euro 80.00 per day, including tea and a soup after the ceremony
http://www.paulshof.de/txt-galerie-index.html
EARTH DANCE 2001 – Berlin/Brandenburg
The Earth Dance is a ceremonial space for meeting, self-experience, and healing. One annually, men, women, and children meet within nature to enter a five-day process with male and female teachers of different spiritual tendencies.
Rituals, ceremonies, teachings, the possibilities for singing, dancing, and getting creative will form the frame for meetings within the earth dance community. Here it is possible to share one's experience with the other persons and to develop one's own creative forms of expression.
To be in nature – with the elements – a mirror to the inner elements.
Water – earth – wind – fire
Water: what is the wish of our heart?
Earth: for what do use our energy?
Wind: What reality do we create?
Fire: What attracts our attention?
The answer of the heart we carry within us leads us in responsibility for the community and therefore also with grandmother earth.
The teachers:
Inti Cesar Melasquez
is a Peruvian shaman and the friend of wind and eagle. Inti is a healer, musician, teacher and leader to the chakras of mother earth. He passes his spiritual knowledge in stories, ceremonies (e.g. sweatlodge), meditation, prayers, and songs. He has spent many years of learning in India. He connects the experience made there with his spiritual teachings.
Devalon Small Legs Long Time Travelling
is a native of the tribe of Peigan-Blackfoot from Southern Alberta in Canada. He sees himself as a mediator between Indian culture [sic] which in his tribe is strongly connected to the buffalo. He is a medicine man and works with traditional ceremonies like the sweatlodge, the healing and the night ceremony.
http://www.angelos-zentrum.de/2012.html
The Year 2012
Lecture by Devalon Small Legs
Devalon Small legs is a Blackfoot Indian and a traditional medicine man.
In this lecture, he will talk about the changes of earth until the year 2012.
In many cultures, the year 2012 is seen as the start of a new era, and the phase of preparation for this era is seen as a challenge for people to return into unity with the powers of nature.
The lecture will take place Thursday, Novemer 9, 2006 at 7 p.m. at the Angelos Centre.
Prior notification compulsory, pls phone 030/6914...
Fee: Euro 30.00
The following weekend, Devalon Small Legs will lead sweatlodges in the vicinity of Berlin.
This is an ad for an esoteric congress organized in 2006. There are two photos, the first one showing J. Reuben Silverbird and Katchinas Kutenai sitting next to each other. The second photo shows Devalon Small Legs and John Colbert aka Lightning Bear aka Pushican (sentenced by a German court in 2001 for torturing a minor).
http://www.eso-garden.com/index.php?/weblog/C4/P15/
„The next Congress of World Peace: Spirituality and World Peace – Indians, Shamans, spiritual teachers and scientists give impulses
April 29 to May 2, 2006
at the Park Inn (formerly Holiday Inn) in the town of Kaarst near Duesseldorf.
Among the speakers are Katchinas Kutenai (medicine woman of the Apache), Lightning Bear (medicine man of the Comanche), Devalon Small Legs (medicine man of the Blackfeet [sic] Indians), Standing Eagle J. Reuben Silverbird, Bruno Würtenberger, and Dr. Eduardo Vasquez-Dalenz.“
More ads for ceremonies from 2008:
http://www.red-eagle.at/Red-Eagle-Events_pid,534,type,aktuelles.html
Aug 15-17, 2008 Traditional Indian sweatlodge
Aug 5 – 17 2008 at Red Eagle Camp Schwarzsee
… with Devalon Small Legs „Long Time Travelling“
Medicine man "Péjuta Wicasha"
Blackfoot - Pikunni from Alberta/Canada
Fort McCloud Reservation
Devalon Small Legs
"Long Time Travelling"
is a medicine man of the tribe of Blackfoot-Pikunni from Alberta/Canada. Since 1999, he travels Europe (especially Germany, Italy, and Hungary) to bring the sweatlodge and other ceremonies to the people. He will lead our lodge and, as a „spiritual advisor“, has an open heart for the issues of participants.
Energy exchange
In the „old days“, payment of the sweatlopdge leader was given in naturals like e.g. food, blankets, or horses. Under „modern“ circumstances, money is prefered for practical reasons.
Please note that the above text uses a Lakota term for healer ( Péjuta Wicasha) instead of a Blackfoot word.
This is a Hungarian site:
http://devalon.atw.hu/kep.htm
An entry from an esoteric forum from earlier this year:
http://www.heiler-forum.net/thread_8420_Sonnentanz.html
„June 12, 2009 21:28
„The sundance will be lead by Devalon James Small Legs, „Long Time Travelling“, medicine man of the Piegan-Blackfoot. Is that „native“ enough for you? BTW, the sundance took place in Hungary last year.“
Apparently, Small Legs has also trained students to be medicine persons selling ceremonies themselves. This is the site of one of them:
http://www.wacha-nabi.de/html/uber_mich.html
This site intends to introduce the person Wacha Nabi Arrow to you.
Of course, I wasn't born an „Indian“ when I entered this world in winter 1969. Well, at that time I didn't know that my grandfather, whom I never met, was a Chickasaw Indian. My real life name is Manfred Jobst.
One day, I met the person who became my most important teacher and mentor. Devalon Small Legs „Long Time Travelling“.
A medicine man of the Blackfoot Indians from Canada. He taught me what I had to know about sweatlodges and other things. Apart from that, he also gave me much strength and courage to follow my path and to help other people through the gifts of the spirits.
This is Jobst's photo gallery:
http://www.wacha-nabi.de/html/bilder_sw.html
There are several photos taken during the building of a sweatlodge. From what the photos show, the lodge is covered at least partly by plastic sheets.
Small Legs and Jobst also offer vision quests:
http://www.wacha-nabi.de/html/visionssuche.html
Upon inquiry, I will be glad to provide a contact to Long Time Travelling who does wonderful vision quests in the Thuringian Wood Mountains.
From Spring 2009, I will also offer vision quests in individual form after inquiries.
http://www.wacha-nabi.de/html/termine.html
June 13-21, 200912.06.2009
Sundance ceremony in Thuringia
leader: Devalon James Small Legs,
„Long Time Travelling“, medicine man of the Piegan-Blackfoot
http://www.kdfnet.de/sweatlodge/sweatlodge.htm
Sweatlodge leader
Our sweatlodge is in the vicinity of the town of Dorfen in the county of Erding, at a wonderful place which has been prepared by two dear persons in unity with nature.
Several persons have led sweatlodge ceremonies there already:
Devalon Small Legs „Long Time Traveling“ is a medicine man from the tribe of Blackfoot from the state Alberta in Canada. The ceremonies which he applies or leads were given to him by the elders of the tribe.
„Thokeya“ has received her knowledge about spiritual ceremonies from medicine men and male and femals shamans from many cultures. Besides spiritual counceling, the building of medicine wheels, she does earth healing and cleansing ceremonies and also sweatlodge ceremonies, mainly for women.
„Wacha Nabi Arrow“ has been working shamanically since many years. At his website, he gives much information about this.
„Wandering Star“ I was lead to do sweatlodges over several years by Long Time Traveling, my friend and one of my spiritual mentors. Even though he encouraged me to introduce my own elements coming from our culture, I cannot deny my indigenous teachers. But I try to be open, in the sense of the „wandering shaman“, for ceremonies from all spiritual teachers whih cross my path. I also am inspired by ancestors from the spiritual world to bring ancient ceremonies from our cultural region into our times.
{As the main topic of this has become Manfred Yobst, edited to change name. - k}
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Is it possible that the earlier (and apparently mistaken) report of Murray Small Legs (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2496.0) was due to a confusion of names with Devalon Small Legs?
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Is it possible that the earlier (and apparently mistaken) report of Murray Small Legs (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2496.0) was due to a confusion of names with Devalon Small Legs?
(As an aside, Devalon and Murray S.L. are brothers.)
One could assume this was just due to confusion. However, since the poster also accused an association which is far from being frauds, exploiters, and students of shame-ons, I suspect the poster has a different agenda. From what I see in German language forums, the association lost members active in the hobbyist resp powwow dancers' scene, and some of them have taken up slandering the association and the chairperson who did not want to continue doing powwows.
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In a couple of cases ("MEDIANA Institut*" (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2493.0) and "www.ravens-spirit.de sure is fraud" (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2492.0)), that poster was rebuked because others couldn't find any "sweat lodge" references — but the references actually were there, though not on the main pages. So I think some good faith assumption is merited.
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It sounds like he is who he says he is.
http://www.ammsa.com/buffalospirit/February-2000/devalonsmalllegs.html
:'(
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here i`m. you posted here my page.
let me tell you. devalon small legs ist one honorest people i ever have meet.
here in germany we almost lost our spirituel roots.
he gives us a chance to get in contact with the spirits,
so we are able to find them again.
he is who he says. for real
he don`t takes much money from the people. he is not rich.
what he doe`s he do in a very deep respect to the creator.
ho
wacha nabi
excuse me for my english please
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hello from germany,
my name ist wacha nabi.
excuse me for my english. i growed up here near munich.
i think some of you will call me a fraud.
it`s ok for me. the creator and me, we know my heart.
and thats enough for me.
i`m here cause somebody posted here my homepage.
best wishes to all
wacha nabi
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here i`m. you posted here my page.
http://www.prismamagazin.de/www/index.php?seite=10&einzel=true&kat_id=9&fileid=461
Shamanism
Name: Wacha Nabi
Contact: Manfred Jobst
Shamanic Help
Flat clearing (fumigation), sweat lodges, Vision Quests, shamanic energy work, drum journey Evenings
and much more.
(Original: Schamanische Hilfe
Wohnungsclearings(Räucherungen), Schwitzhütten, Visionssuchen, schamanische Energiearbeit, Trommelreiseabende
und vieles mehr.)
Hello Mr Jobst. How much do you and Mr. Small Legs charge for the Sweat Lodges (Schwitzhütten) and Vision Quests (Visionssuchen) you lead for Germans and other Europeans? What tradition were you trained in, and who authorized you to lead these ceremonies? Thank you.
Are you aware that legitimate Native American spiritual leaders lead ceremonies for their own people, in their own lands; they do not travel to Europe to lead these ceremonies for people who are not Native American.
Google Translation, English -> German (http://translate.google.com/)
Dies ist eine Google-Übersetzung (http://translate.google.com/), verzeihen Sie mir, wenn es nicht ganz richtig: Hallo Herr Jobst. Wie viel wissen Sie und Herr Small Legs Gebühr für die Schwitzhütten (Sweat Lodges) und Visionssuchen (Vision Quests) Sie führen für Deutsche und andere Europäer? Was hast du in der Tradition ausgebildet, und die Sie berechtigt, diese Zeremonien führen? Danke.
Ist Ihnen bekannt, dass die legitimen Native American geistigen Führer Zeremonien führen für ihre eigenen Leute in ihrem eigenen Land, sie nicht nach Europa reisen, um diese Zeremonien für Menschen, die nicht amerikanischen Ureinwohnern sind führen.
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hello together,
i try it in english again.
you asked me about the charge for the sweat lodges.
i speak for mine sl. first please tink about the costs we have here in germany.
we have to buy the wood, sometimes even the stones, pay for the place, for the food we serve at the end.
normaly the charge is 50.- Euro. if somebody have not much money and i know this, he don`t hast to pay anything.
sometimes i get some appels or a handmade picture. thats all ok. i don`t want to get rich.
i only want to follow my way the spirits gave to me. and no one will send away if he has no money!!!
and yes i know taht some spirituell leaders don`t want to share. they have their reasons. thats ok for me.
but there are many who understand that we europeans need their help to learn.
sure there a many "frauds" wich only wants to make money.
but here are also a few people who works with respect.
i was trained in a blackfoot tradition. and a blackfootmedicinman (a elder) allowed me to do run sweat lodges.
i do this in my way.
ho
wacha nabi
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i was trained in a blackfoot tradition. and a blackfootmedicinman (a elder) allowed me to do run sweat lodges.
and this elder blackfootmedicineman was devalon small legs?
und dieser blachfootmedizinmann war devalon small legs?
and now you work under the label "shaman"?
und jetzt arbeitest du als "schamane"?
is that the tradition of blackfoot?to cover sweatlodge with plastic, as you do..
ist dies die tradition der blackfoot, die schwitzhütte, mit PLASTIKPLANEN zu bedecken???
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yes it was devalon.
i work in a shaman way. yes
the way the spirits showed me.
traditon of mankind is to take what you have.
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yes it was devalon.
i work in a shaman way. yes
the way the spirits showed me.
traditon of mankind is to take what you have.
on your website there are several photos taken during the building of a sweatlodge. From what the photos show, the lodge is covered at least partly by "PLASTIC" ???sheets. Isn´t that dangerous???
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i work in a shaman way. yes
http://www.wacha-nabi.de/html/bilder_sw.html
sorry, maybe i must ask a stupid question, but i must ask you, WHY do you use plastic sheets for the sweatlodge??
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because i have no plastic allergy or fear about.
i allready sleeped in the logde after a sweat and i`m still alive.
in former day they native would have used ist also if they had things like that.
here in germany rains very often, so it`s a good solutin i think.
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because i have no plastic allergy or fear about.
in former day they native would have used ist also if they had things like that.
in former day the native would have used "PLASTIC SHEETS" for sweatlogde, if they had things like that???
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yes i think so.
especelly the amercin native have been very clever.
they used evrything.
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yes i think so.
especelly the amercin native have been very clever.
they used evrything.
i would never go in a plastic sweat...
a lot of people died in plastic sweats...done by plastic shame ons
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2380.0
i ask now the members here: "would you go in a plastic sweat"???
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i know no accident here in germany,
maybe we are here a bit more carefully?
you are invited. smile
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i know no accident here in germany,
maybe we are here a bit more carefully?
you are invited. smile
i am ivited, thank you very much :) :) :)
but before i come, i make my "testament" ???
the german word:"Testament"
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why are so scared?
they came all healthy out of the swaet lodge.
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here in germany we almost lost our spirituel roots.
deleted
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why are so scared?
they came all healthy out of the swaet lodge.
i am not scared :)
ich hab keine angst.
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no if never been in amercia.
i never said this.
and if you would read carefully, i worte that i never have meet my grandfahther.
we is we all europeans, the church took us all spirituell.
how do you want to know that i only had some weekendseminars?
you don`t know much about me an you start to judge.
is this the right way?
that is the funny thing.
and if somebody calls me shaman, why not?
its not on my homepage, please resach a bit better.
and now????
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you don`t know much about me an you start to judge.
is this the right way?
that is the funny thing.
you are right, i judge :)
to judge about sombody is not the right way..
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okay, i deleted my judging statement above.
however i have said what i wanted.
and i have nothing more to say.
you are selling visionquest and sweatlodge and more...in germany and you say it is okay for you.
when it is okay for you to sell in germany sacred ceremonies then do it.
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it has to be ok for the spirits and the people who comes.
not for you or me.
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yes i think so.
especelly the amercin native have been very clever.
they used evrything.
i would never go in a plastic sweat...
a lot of people died in plastic sweats...done by plastic shame ons
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2380.0
i ask now the members here: "would you go in a plastic sweat"???
No. If I knew there was plastic lining on a 'sweat lodge' I wouldn't go in. Not because of fear. Although death is probably likely with that. Here it is, even if I had never ever done a sweat and never knew or heard of ndn culture or whatnot, I would not go into a dome structure covered with plastic and have a hot steam in there.
Mr. Wacha.. You state "the amercin native have been very clever. they used evrything."
I don't know how you would know this, or why this would even be said. I don't know if they did or didn't. I"m not NA, so I don't know. But seems a rather .. I dunno.. thing to say.. ?
For me, I use everything in my life for my own spiritual beliefs. When I say that, I am speaking of Life. (I don't run sweats, so this is totally hypothetical) If I were to run a sweat and had only plastic, then I would not run one, and use the experience of NOT running one..
I wouldn't go into a lodge with plastic. Not for fear of death, but because what I have experienced of life .. Plastic is dead. Why would I want something dead and of no life in my ceremony (if I were to have one again, I don't )
To me, what I understand, and what are my reasons most likely are not the Native American reasons, or understanding.. I do not know what they reason or understand. I can only speak of my own standing in life, and of my own experience. I wouldn't put something 'dead' and of no natural affiliation with/of LIFE in ceremony.
Take the plastic off the lodge and find something else, and if nothing else can be found.. then go without. It's not the end of the world to not be able to do sweat lodge. Spirit has other ways. If this is not a way given and trained to you and done in right accordance of Native Tradition, then don't do it. There will be another way for you. Find that.
"IT" isn't about having sweats..
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hello together,
i try it in english again.
you asked me about the charge for the sweat lodges.
i speak for mine sl. first please tink about the costs we have here in germany.
we have to buy the wood, sometimes even the stones, pay for the place, for the food we serve at the end.
normaly the charge is 50.- Euro. if somebody have not much money and i know this, he don`t hast to pay anything.
sometimes i get some appels or a handmade picture. thats all ok. i don`t want to get rich.
i only want to follow my way the spirits gave to me. and no one will send away if he has no money!!!
and yes i know taht some spirituell leaders don`t want to share. they have their reasons. thats ok for me.
but there are many who understand that we europeans need their help to learn.
sure there a many "frauds" wich only wants to make money.
but here are also a few people who works with respect.
i was trained in a blackfoot tradition. and a blackfootmedicinman (a elder) allowed me to do run sweat lodges.
i do this in my way.
ho
wacha nabi
Hello and welcome. You're English is fine, no need to apologize.
As far as wanting to learn about spirituality. I have something you might want to consider.
When running sweat lodges or other types of events one thing you must consider is that you have not gained any permission from a Blackfoot community to do what you do. Just because one man who claimed to be medicine man told you it was ok doesn't mean that it's truly ok. You're not a member of any Blackfoot community and you truly have no idea how these things are run amongst Blackfoot people. You only have the impression of one man...not an entire community. The claim that you have permission seems to give the impression that it's ok with Blackfoot people for you to take something that's theirs, something that you're just learning about, and TEACHING about it. If you really wanted to have that, then you must humble yourself before the community you're claiming to represent and ask the permission of ALL of them. One man does NOT have the right to let you represent all his people.
The reality is this person WOULD NOT do and say the things he's said to you in front of his community and no matter how much you like him or how sincere you think he is, the fact that he's doin' something that's NOT ACCEPTED in his community and he's letting you think that it's perfectly alright let's me know that there's some lying going on there. He's telling you what you want to hear and you're buying it.
My suggestion would be to stop practicing something you're just barely learning about...stop attempting to teach it and visit where you're teacher says he comes from. It takes a lifetime to become a person that can lead these types of things and if you're gonna use the Blackfoot name in order to promote it, then you MUST gain their (not his) permission.
You'll find that things are done much differently there and you would learn why there is never a charge. The idea that the expenses of running a ceremony should fall upon the attendees is false. This burden is carried by many people involved and the person running it would normally take a lot of that work upon themselves. Being a spiritual leader means being a servant to your community. If things can't come together for you to have these things more naturally without a price tag...then I'd take it as a sign that it wasn't meant to be.
Life's a journey and making mistakes is part of learning and I hope you take my words with an open heart and realize that you've been lied to. At the very least, some things that are very important to your endeavors have not been told to you and that's the same thing as lying. Never ever ever pay to pray and never require a price from others in order to pray with you.
Superdog
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because i have no plastic allergy or fear about.
i allready sleeped in the logde after a sweat and i`m still alive.
in former day they native would have used ist also if they had things like that.
here in germany rains very often, so it`s a good solutin i think.
You're belief here is false. A sweat lodge HAS to breathe. Plastic prevents that....it is in fact very dangerous to use plastic and if you've followed some of the news here in the US you'd learn that 3 people recently died tragically by being involved in a sweatlodge built with plastic tarps and run for non-Indians by non-Indians. It's a terrible solution...just because you've been ok previously doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. In the 3 deaths that occurred in Arizona, the vast majority of the people involved ended up ok....but it was still a very dangerous situation and the fact that those people are ok doesn't make it any better for the 3 people that lost their lives.
You truly have a LOT to learn and you're in no position to be teaching ANY of this just based on the things you've written here. If you want to learn about Blackfoot traditions....Go to a Blackfoot community and humble yourself and LEARN....
Take yourself outside your situation for a moment and consider this hypothetical......let's say I liked the yearly festival of one German village. This festival is part of the village there and they've been doing it for hundreds of years and it's only done in that village. Let's say the festival is also done every year as a measure of good luck for the people there...they truly believe that they must conduct this festival in order to preserve the good fortunes they've had in life. I've watched it on video, read about it and thought it was the best thing in the world. I liked it so much that I wanted to run the same festival here in the US. So one day I run across someone from that village with the festival I love and they agree to teach me. I just have to give them a place to live, feed them and pay their expenses (not big money...just enough) and they teach me about what elements are involved with that festival. That same year I put on my festival and I claim that it's a true German festival and that I've been given permission by this one person who came from the village so that makes it a complete German experience.....EVEN THOUGH the festival I put on is all in English, the costumes are bought from a costume store, the food is all bought in American grocery stores etc etc.
Would Germans, or more specifically the people from the village that originated my festival, have a problem with me claiming that it's a German festival (considering I'm not German and none of the participants are German and none of it uses German language). What if I also charged admission to my festival (where the festival is free and put on the by the village it comes from) and sold tickets claiming that "It's like going to Germany!!"
I'd think that if I ran into any Germans...or even German-Americans and tried to sell them my tickets, they'd crack up laughing at me....
So to stop them from laughing I say "The tickets are very cheap....we don't make any money off of it we just like this festival...."
I'd imagine them saying "This is nothing like what's done in Germany and you shouldn't claim that it is..."
This whole little situation...if you can imagine it, is exactly how you're looked at by individuals over here. Plastic is DANGEROUS and you OBVIOUSLY don't know what you're doing. The things you don't know you fill in with your own imagination (in your own words) and again...that just shows you shouldn't be in the position of teaching any of it. Open your heart and your mind to that.
Superdog
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here in germany we almost lost our spirituel roots.
I have to speak to this. Because I have no spiritual roots. My family did not have any spiritual/religious traditions or beliefs. Oh, sure, my mom's dad apparently he was Lutheran or something, my mom didn't believe in that. My dad's side, I have no idea if they had any religion/spiritual thoughts or beliefs.
Point is, my parents raised us without spiritual beliefs of any kind.
My belief is that for every heart that beats, there is a way/path to Spirit. There is no need to appropriate another's way. Find your own. It might take you 50+ plus years to do so. But that's what it is. There are no short cuts.
The simple fact that what you are doing is upsetting to the people who's way you are confiscating is enough to say it is wrong to do it. These ways were given to these people. They are the only ones who know how it is done, and are the only people who can give permission for a person to do.
When I was 20 years younger, I had difficulty in 'understanding' the 'idea' of 'stolen' spiritual ways. I understand something different now.
There is plenty of Spirit to go around for all, what is given to one people is their way .. it is sacred in that. In that it was given to them.. they are the holders of such way. Respect that. Without communal consent to you, or permission, you are stealing.
People seem to not recognize and respect a block on the path. What I mean is, ok, so you walking along, and come across a block.. in this case, the block is that the spiritual way you wish to use is not yours, not given to you to use. Instead of respecting that and moving on, they use it anyway. Blocks are put on the path for reason.
Let's say you walking and come to a 20 foot hedge. Instead of finding another way through to where you are wanting to be, you just cut down the hedge. You think you are there now, you're not. You may be arrived to the other side of the hedge, but you are not there. Turn around and look at how you arrived. Behind you is destruction of the very thing you were seeking. You tore it down to get to where you wanted to be. It is selfish. And of no respect. People want want want.. but never take the path to it.. they mow it down in their false feeling of needing 'now'.
Find another way. Recognize and respect the blocks in your path and walk accordingly.
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i know no accident here in germany,
maybe we are here a bit more carefully?
you are invited. smile
Just because you don't know of them does not mean they don't happen. There are many instances of Germans involved in dangerous versions of sweatlodges.
The so called Deer Tribe run by Harley Reagan does quite a lot of harm, and there are many chapters in Germany. The Deer Tribe has injured their members in badly run sweatlodges before. They also sexually abuse their members and pretend it's a ceremony.
If you search our site you will find that there is a German or Dutch woman who is trying to make money off the deaths of people in sweatlodges in Sedona.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2380.msg20093#msg20093
There is another German who came to our site and said he knew people were injured in badly done sweatlodges, but he didn't care and was going to do them anyway. He was even going to keep teaching people how to do sweats by themselves, which is incredibly dangerous.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=796.0
And there is even a German who does sweatlodges with small children, even babies.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2369.msg19218#msg19218
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and yes i know taht some spirituell leaders don`t want to share. they have their reasons. thats ok for me.
but there are many who understand that we europeans need their help to learn.
i was trained in a blackfoot tradition. and a blackfootmedicinman (a elder) allowed me to do run sweat lodges.
i do this in my way.
ho
wacha nabi
Just like you I´m European.
I don´t feel the need to repeat what Natives in here have already said about Nons running Native ceremonies.
They say it so much better than I could.
What bothers me, and saddens me actually, is that you say that we Europeans need help to learn because we have lost so much. So why do you ask a Native American to teach you – a completely different culture – instead of being proud of who YOU are, what your ancestors fought for and the traces they left behind. What we had is NOT gone. There are sacred places all over, places we could visit to connect to our roots.
The way I see it is that the more you incorporate another tradition in your life, the further away you will get from who you are. And from the kind of spirituality that can make you stronger. Most Native Americans will tell you how important it is to connect to our roots, our past and our ancestors.
Obviously you think they are wrong?
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So why do you ask a Native American to teach you – a completely different culture – ---
maybe because his grandfather is a Chickasaw.
maybe he want to learn more about his culture---
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wacha nabi
reply #7
and yes i know taht some spirituell leaders don`t want to share.
When you are talking about using something that is deeply important to someone else, in a way that damages and distorts the meaning of this for the person or people it is important to, describing this as "some people don't want to share" seems to be an overly nice way of describing what you are doing.
I understand it's confusing when some Native people say it's OK to charge a bit of money to cover costs, and it's OK for non native people to lead traditional ceremonies.
But the fact remains most Spiritual leaders within Native communities are very strongly opposed to any commercialization of traditional ways of prayer. Even if people mean well, and this can sometimes be justified as a way of covering costs, once this is done , it is way too easy for the profit motive to begin to influence how and why things are done.
Also, from what I have heard most Spiritual leaders within Native communities are strongly opposed to non native people leading indigenous ceremonies or performing sensitive key roles in these ceremonies. As I understand it, this isn't because these knowledgeable people "don't want to share", but because it takes an entire deeply rooted community to insure these ways are maintained properly and that the people involved get the many sided balanced life long support they will need.
When a few native people say something is Ok but so many other Native people say it isn't, to make an analogy, it is kind of like if you wanted to use someones wedding pictures as a part of a movie you were making, and the husband said it was OK and the wife said NO it is not OK. Even though the husband said it is OK , it seems to me the right thing to do would be to listen to the wife who says no.
In the case of something that is needed by a whole community this principle is very important because if there is 100 people you can always find one person who will say yes to whatever is being asked. If one persons yes is all it takes, no community would have control over any of it's resources. I bet there would be a few Germans who would say yes to allowing the park lands in Germany to be logged and the wood sold to China. So if all it takes is a few people who say yes and it's OK to ignore the people saying NO Germany would have no protected ares like parks. That is why it's important to listen to the representives of the entire community not just a few people.
And it sounds like the Native people in Southren Alberta say NO to advertising and charging for ceremonies or removing these ceremonies from being a part of of the whole experience of living in a Native community.
I think ? this first quote is from the same website that featured the article on Devalon Small Legs.
http://www.buffalospirit.org/honoring-relationships/advice-from-the-powwow-trial
Many times I have seen individuals "showing off" their sundance scars, tobacco ties or amulets hanging around their necks - exposed. When a person carries protection and/or medicine, it should always be hidden and never be spoken about.
Spiritual leaders and medicine men should be considered in the same light. For the true and sincere, their reverence is based on humbleness, dedication and sacrifice. Anytime someone stands before you and claims to be a medicine man, do not believe him or anything he says, because he or she has desecrated their oath of humbleness. You will not find a true and sincere spiritual leader or medicine man teaching in a school or university, or seeking public attention.
It was said in the beginning that the Creator gave a certain uniqueness, power and protector of a certain medicine to each nation and tribe. Certain individuals, clans and societies were gifted with this special knowledge and, most importantly, given the right to use the medicine.
Be careful of false leaders and pseudo-medicine men that charge money for their services, especially of those that take money before the ceremony even starts. To all faiths throughout the world, including those that are Native, consider money as the 'root of all evil.'
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.multilingual-matters.net/jost/012/0029/jost0120029.pdf (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.multilingual-matters.net/jost/012/0029/jost0120029.pdf)
For example, the question of the appropriateness of including tourists in sweat lodge ceremonies remains a contentious issue in many circles. Grossly oversimplified, a ‘sweat’ constitutes spiritual as well as physical cleansing, but its religious significance, spirituality and social aspects vary widely from tribe to tribe, from community to community and from spiritual practitioner to practitioner.
In 1998 this author was invited to a gathering of aboriginal Elders and
tourism representatives from Alberta which was convened at the Nakoda Lodge on the Stoney Reserve to discuss this very issue. The message received from the Elders was unequivocal: aboriginal spirituality is not for sale, and there is no place for spiritual ceremonies in tourism products.
My bold
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who is Chickasaw? if it is this man wacha nabi why is he doing thing the Blackfoot way?
Seem really strange to me. Is he enrolled and who is he related to? That is the question
we ask all native people.
We do not charge for wood, rocks ect.... and never the lodge.
If you don't have these things maybe you should be doing these things
There are reason why people are not to do these things it takes a life time
to learn.
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Thank you mama, for those words, as a native person I find that these kind of people
like wacha nabi are abuser because they think they know more than the creator then
they make decision to hurt people. native people do not use plastic as it was said if the
lodge don't breath it is not a lodge. Why do these people keep abuse cultures? I never
understand these people it is like they have no heart. they steal everything that is good
and make it evil like charging money. If you don't have the supplies don't do the ceremony
Duh!
Wacha you do not have the Nations approval you don't have the right one man can't give
you the right.
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especelly the amercin native have been very clever.
they used evrything.
Manfred, you speak of Native Americans as if they only exist in the past. This is wrong. Native people are still with us, and they are reading your words and talking to you here on this forum. I hope you are listening.
You met one man who told you what you wanted to hear. He does not speak for anyone but himself.
You have finally gotten the attention of some traditional Native people, from the living communities that maintain these ceremonies and live this way of life. You are perhaps for the first time in the (virtual) presence of those who are the true descendants of those ancestors you think you are honoring. I realize that what they have to say is different from the fantasies you have learned. I hope you can hear their words.
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i hear it very well,
i hear and feel here fear, ego`s are speaking. and so on. not from all
not one man gave me the right to run ceremonies. the grandfathers gave it to me.
one question? how many of you speaks with the grandfathers?
listen to them. what does they tell you about this?
best wishes to all of you
wacha nabi
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my grandfather was chickasaw,
i`m not enrolled.
i have never been in america.
i never saw my grandfather.
if this is importent to you, ok.
but not for me and my work.
it comes from the grandfathers.
and in germany we have to pay for wood, the place,...
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please ask the grandfathers before you judge me and what i do.
you don`t know much about me.
and i don`know about you all.
but i would`t say that you have to stop what you are doing, it`s not good.
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I wonder what the people in Brocket, Stand Off and Moses Lake think of Small Leg's adventures over seas. Perhaps if Wacha Nabi knew the Bloods and Piegan people better and understood their history he would respect these people more by putting away his new found NDN spirituality. Generations of good people have suffered to hold on to their spirituality. I would like to see a dialogue between Small Legs and his own people on this board. Small Legs no longer sees Chief Mountain.
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i have to say that devalon was not my only teacher.
and i have my own style of spirtuell work.
from my teachers i got the basics but i had to learn walk on my own.
find my way to help others.
let me say, i have many respect for the blackfoot nation and all other nations.
what i do ist not blackfoot style or chickasaw or others.
its my own.
so now call me fraud please !!!
i had many years to learn, not even a weekend.
i talk to the spirits and i get answers.
call me fraud !!!
i have respect for the creator and mother earth.
i have respect for all souls.
i teach this respect to others.
so call me fraud !!!
i believe people has to work together if they want to survive.
i think spirituell things comes from the spirits, not from people.
call me fraud please !!!
if i hurt anyone in his opion and feeling for his culture, please excuse.
but its to important to stop.
call me fraud !!!
yes i take money for my help from people who has money.
germany is expensive and i have to live.
but evryone can come and get help, also without money if he has none.
one more reason to call me fraud !!!
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i hear it very well,
i hear and feel here fear, ego`s are speaking. and so on. not from all
not one man gave me the right to run ceremonies. the grandfathers gave it to me.
one question? how many of you speaks with the grandfathers?
listen to them. what does they tell you about this?
best wishes to all of you
wacha nabi
At one time early in my life, very early.. I was given vision and told of a promise of a future. That future came to pass, and what I was told was real, but also very false. I had lived my entire life based on that. Seriously, my Life. I stayed alive for it. I lived every day for it. And it was false.
How this left me and everything I've gone through to have come out this side, and be where I am now.. is too long a story to tell here. But I can say without any doubt whatsoever, that it is not enough for what grandfathers or any of any has to say.
I learned the hardest way there is, and I can tell you it doesn't matter what you perceive as being grandfathers, or what it is you perceive they have said.
The only thing that matters is the world you are finding yourself within and what you do there. Not from self.. from what you want it to be, or what you wish to believe..
Belief is as fleeting as life.. It comes and goes with.. and as.. birth and death.
So, what you are believing in regards to who you perceive as grandfathers, and what you perceive of them relaying to you.. is what you believe.. but it doesn't make it truth, and could very well be false.
I have learned in the hardest way, that the vision, or message relayed is best not to be interpreted by the one receiving. The self is in the way there.
To me, to ask what the grandfathers say, is asking me to ask what is the opinions of who knows... and how many... One may say this, another may say that. It still leaves all in the same situation. The decisions of what we do must come from ourselves. It is we who are alive now. Therefore, what we choose is on us, not on ancestors.
You decide on what to do here. It is on you, and only you. People on this board have given you their views, explained what their tradition is in these matters. If you decide to ignore the voices of the traditions you are using.. that is on you, and you alone. To lift it up to say the 'grandfathers' said so, or told you so.. that is not real. There is no ancestor or spirit or whatever that is going to tell you to do this or that. The action of your life, is yours, and yours alone.
Having said this, and pretty much thinking that you will continue in your way, I can only then ask that you please punch a lot of holes in that plastic you are using. Thank you.
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let me say, i have many respect for the blackfoot nation and all other nations.
what i do ist not blackfoot style or chickasaw or others.
its my own.
i believe people has to work together if they want to survive.
i think spirituell things comes from the spirits, not from people.
if i hurt anyone in his opion and feeling for his culture, please excuse.
but its to important to stop.
First, I am not NA and I apologize to any if I am stepping on toes or anything, but I have my own opinions on these matters .. and am going to say it ..
The sweat lodge is not your own. You are not working together with people if you are creating disharmony by confiscating a tradition that is not yours to run. Running the lodge and any other traditional ceremony that you have not been given in traditional way the rights to run, is not too important to continue. It isn't. The world will not end if you stop.
I help many people too. But I have my own way. And it doesn't involve NA traditions. And I know it's only important in my own mind. If Spirit deemed my life over, then another will step into place. I am not so important, and neither is my work here. Not so important to be irreplaceable. And certainly not important enough to confiscate ritual from others. They are the holders of that, not I. I have my own things, and I work with what I'm given, I do not take it from others, or take and change to my own thought of it.
I'm not writing this to convince you of otherwise, I'm writing this to give you a view point. I've met too many people who get too .. how should say.. self involved in/with spirits. Sometimes, the spirits are wrong. There are no beings in creation that are infallible.. but for Creator.. and Creator Spirit if given you a gift .. then use that, and not the gifts that have been given to others. I don't think you see this. But I could be wrong.
*edit.. I came back to add that what I've been given, I do not teach to others. I protect it. It's not mine to give. And with that, I can very well relate to how any people, such as NA's, strive to protect what they were given. It's a matter of not just respect, but honor. I wouldn't sell it, and I would be angry if someone abused or misused it. To me, I feel fortunate in that I am unable to teach. It lessens the chance of someone confiscating and imitating. A person has to not just respect what is given to their self and to others, but honor it as well, honor the place to which it is held and the people who hold it.
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you say it right evrybody has to make it on his own. but with help of the grandfathers.
what you do is your thing. they only help you.
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Not Always. I am not one who relies on them. If they choose to, great, if not, also great. It took me a long time to respect that they can come as well as leave. They are not obligated. Some can use you in the same way a person can... and then up and leave when they've gotten what they wanted or needed.
If a person is 'in service' they are no longer alive for their self. And nothing in life is about them, or about what they believe, or want, or think.
But the topic of this thread is in regards to you operating ceremony that is taken from another culture and tradition. I am of the view that it is not yours to use. Honor what was given to another, and Find a different way for your self.
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this way found me. what should i do?
its the way i have to go.
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i have to say that devalon was not my only teacher.
let me say, i have many respect for the blackfoot nation and all other nations.
what i do ist not blackfoot style or chickasaw or others.
its my own.
Disregarding the ranting "call me a fraud" part I gotta say if this is true you don't give that impression at all on your commercial spirituality website.
Several times on there you give kudos to Devalon as your teacher and several times you mention that the sweat lodge you conduct is Blackfoot style.
That's where the issue is. If you're doing something completely different, then you fail to give that impression with the wording you use and with the graphic detail including drawings of a sweat lodge, detailed instructions on what each round is a about, how to conduct it, etc etc...all of which you attribute to Devalon and also flat out call "Blackfoot style".
Your own words call issue to what you're saying. Not mine or anyone elses here and as I stated, you might wanna take a step back from yourself and look at what you're doing from someone else's shoes. You might also want to realize that you're talking to Natives here...we are people brought up in our cultures and we are not for sale no matter how you justify it...and we are also extremely diverse in the languages and cultures from one end of North America to the other and certainly not to be lumped incorrectly in one catch-all self made guru's commercial self help website. What you perceive as helping others actually causes a lot of damage to the people you're claiming to honor. There's a balance in everything and you're taking from one group so that you can help others...along the way misguiding those you would help with your own misguided vision and in the end making yourself and others more lost then you left them.
I'll say it one more time.....you have A LOT to learn.
Superdog
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dear superdog,
we bove have much to learn.
you see what ist done to your culture. thats realy a pitty.
and i see what gift the spirits gave me to help others.
how get togehter?
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this way found me. what should i do?
its the way i have to go.
I personally don't believe in statements like this. To me, this is what a person says who doesn't know they are responsible for their life. It's the words of a criminal or an addict. Saying it is someone else who chose for them. You're the only person who chooses where your feet go in life.
You said you had your own thing, go that way. It isn't hard to walk away from what is not yours when you understand the concept, and understand the harm.
If you wish to insist your path is not your doing, then perhaps you could consider Spirit put you there so you could learn what not to do. Which is take from another culture and sell as your own.
I'm done now, there isn't anything more I have to say on this. And not going to go in circles with words. Be well.
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dear superdog,
we bove have much to learn.
you see what ist done to your culture. thats realy a pitty.
and i see what gift the spirits gave me to help others.
how get togehter?
Don't pity me. I'm a very happy person with a very happy family. The intent behind my words is nothing more than injecting some of the few things I've learned from life into the conversation. I realize that I'm in no control over anybody else other than myself. If what I say makes sense and you can use it then that's good...if not...it wasn't meant to be. I find happiness regardless....and since you don't know what tribe I come from, you also must understand that you really don't know what's "been done" to my culture. I've just been blessed enough to get around a little in life and people have trusted me enough to tell me lots of things in every community I've come in contact with, but I would never claim to speak for them.
The issue people have here is that you're using Devalon Small Legs and the name of the Blackfoot Nation to legitimize yourself as a teacher, when in reality.....you're very much a beginner. I can't say it any more plainly and you would have to have some trust in me to truly believe that, but I'm only words on a screen to you and that's ok. My hope is that enough knowledgeable people will cross your path and repeat the same sentiment and rather than seeing it as an attack worthy of defense, you'd see it as knowledge coming your way.
I'm not saying to not try and find your path in life through whatever way fits you. I'm saying stop selling it on the internet. Once you put the price tag on it, then it becomes commercial. It's not whether you're making a profit or just covering your expenses...once you get people to pay for it...they take on the idea that they've bought it...and it's theirs. When you take that and put labels such as "having permission from a Blackfoot medicine man", "Blackfoot style", etc etc then people think they're buying Blackfoot culture and spirituality...when they think they own it, they go and sell it to others, regardless if what they've learned is true or not. If you're a true admirer of Devalon, visit his community. Get to know his family, friends and others and see what they do there. I'm sure you'll find things much different than what you have going on at your home. Spiritual leaders do work, have jobs, pay expenses honestly and ALSO take the time to help others when asked. They don't do it for the promise of a gift and they balance their lives between helping others and also taking care of their home. You've tipped the balance and made helping others your full time job. Help is something that is offered without the promise of anything in return. When you pay someone for "help" you're in reality "hiring" someone and that's NOT the same thing.
What's more troubling is that you've taken the dangerous practice of using plastic tarps for your sweat lodge...a practice that has killed people in the past and recently...and justify it in your mind by convincing yourself that it's "the Indian way"....."using everything available" or whatever way you to explain it. The real sentiment behind that is using everything available FROM NATURE...plastic is unnatural and man-made...they don't go together. It's dangerous and you must, for your safety and others, stop using it. When you or another ends up hurt in some way because you've convinced them that plastic is "the Indian way" because Germany is very rainy...then the blame goes here...not to you and that's how you'll end up hurting Native peoples.
Humble yourself to the fact that you are just a human being, like me and like everyone else. True wisdom is gained over time and involves learning the same thing in many different ways. Some people never figure that out. In my community there are people who are considered "elders" and then there are those just got old and made it without learning anything. Elders are considered so by the entire community, not just because of age, but because the things they say make sense. They are very humble individuals and never give themselves titles in order to impress others and are also very happy and fun to be around. If you've closed your mind to learning things and consider yourself "the teacher" at this very young stage of your life then you'll really miss out on a lifetime of knowledge that could really be used to help people you know and trust.
I'm not your teacher or any teacher so getting together isn't something I'm offering. I've got a full life of family and community that uses my time so if my words make sense to you...that's all I got. If not....I'm not gonna be upset with you for it, but I certainly would feel disappointed for you if you choose not to understand anything that's written by knowlegeable individuals on this board....many much more knowledgeable than myself.
Superdog
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There are a lot of people who claim to communicate with spirits but in reality there are very very few who are gifted with this. Most people hear the echo of their own desires. The mind is very powerful and can fool people and make them into fools. Also power is very seductive and would be "shamans" can be pulled into a whirlpool of their own ego. Perhaps you are not a fraud but you are simply misguided. Either way the out come is the same.
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There are a lot of people who claim to communicate with spirits but in reality there are very very few who are gifted with this. Most people hear the echo of their own desires. The mind is very powerful and can fool people and make them into fools. Also power is very seductive and would be "shamans" can be pulled into a whirlpool of their own ego. Perhaps you are not a fraud but you are simply misguided. Either way the out come is the same.
I agree. And it's almost always the ones who go on in public about their great psychic gifts, and how the spirits are speaking to (or through) them, who are the most deluded.
I've also seen some people with the potential to hear the spirits, or who have heard them a little bit, get seduced by their own ambition and ego and lose that ability. But by then they've built their sense of self (and sometimes, source of income) around their miniscule abilities. When even that little bit of talent leaves them, they get more deluded and learn to act, exaggerate, confabulate and lie. By that point they're usually so messed-up they don't even realize the extent to which they are lying.
A healthy spiritual/religious community has checks and balances: physical, physically present, elders and peers who will tell a would-be spiritual leader if they are misinterpreting or misrepresenting, or in other ways getting out of line. I wonder what language Jobst's alleged "grandfathers" speak to him? Somehow I doubt it's Blackfoot. And if it's German, somehow I doubt they're asking for plastic sweat lodges and fantasies of Plains Medicine Men.
It's common knowledge that if "the voices" are telling you to do something harmful, there's a problem. Either it's a brain malfunction, an over-active imagination, or you've hooked up with spirits who are malicious (or whom you've pissed off). Manfred, you seem to believe the spirits are telling you to do things that harm Native Americans (by harming their cultures), and that risk the lives and spiritual well-being of the ignorant people who trust you to lead ceremony. What does that say about the voices in your head?
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I am Lakota/Dakota i live among my people
I watch as you non-natives do these things
If your grandfather was Chickasaw what was his name?
In Indian country we can find out who your family
was. We as native people must ask these questions
I also know you don't have these rights to do this
No man can give you that right and you can not charge
for the lodge, if you must buy rocks and wood then you
must pay for them yourself not the people.
No one taught you the right way, the way you do things
is corrupted
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I don't believe he is going to listen to us because
he has the mentality of most frauds who believe they
are right.
They sell ceremonies which only brings harm
to those they claim to help.
These kind of people do so much harm to the people
that they claim to help and to the native people
they stole the ceremonies from the people.
A thief in the night who thinks that they have the
right to take what is not theirs to take.
He is a fraud
1. he sells ceremonies online
2. claims to hold Blackfeet ceremonies
3. he does not have the right to do this from the nation
4. He used the blackfeet's people name which is fraud
5. he refuse to listen when native people say it is wrong
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sorry i have to laugh.
all i haer here is judging me.
people who don`t know me are judge me.
the creator is my judge, not you.
these people think they know all about life and spirituality.
please make my day and put me on the fraud list.
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Wacha Nabi - I have seen this happen so many times here in Europe. A Native person comes over and tells you everything you want to hear to boost your ego. (And quite often you´d have to pay for it) I don´t blame you for believing it to be true. It is extremely easy to go wrong if you haven´t visited traditional people in Native communities and actually stayed with them for a while.
I´ve been there, too, believing the misinformation I got from an exploiter before I had a chance to travel to the US and Canada. I´ve never participated in a faked ceremony, though (since some kind of intuition - call it spirits, if you like - told me it was wrong). So again, I would never blame people getting caught in the trap since exploiters are experts at manipulating.
What I do NOT understand, though, is that when you have a chance to listen to Native people, especially people living on the rez and practicing their traditions, you disregard their concern completely. Many reputed Lakota leaders have told me that when you do not follow the protocol conducting a sweat (like being Native, speaking the language, having the right training and being accepted by the community) the spirits do not come in and the ceremony could even become dangerous. I have been told that when/if I visit a faked ceremony in Europe I have to protect myself. And that is not even participating in it, just being close to it is enough.
And yes, I have also had the honour of visiting the Blackfoot in Canada and talked to medicinpeople there. They told me exactly the same thing.
Sooo, do you think these spiritual leaders are lying?
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No one knows all about life and spirituality. But the NA's here know about their own cultures and what is permissible and what is not.
I think if you feel judged it is yourself. I don't see judging here. I see people telling you *why* it is not OK from their culture for you to take of it and use it.
One could say you are judging as well.. and then the circle of words goes 'round and 'round..
oh well.
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Wacha Nabi: Young man hear this old man's words. You have heard from true native Americans from several Plains Tribes. These people were born and raised within their tradition. They attend and take part in ceremony. Creator gave the ceremony to them not to the Germans. Creator gave to the Germans their own ceremony. Stay in the tradition that was given to your own people. A true Medicine person lives and breathes his Spirituality every second of the day. He is humble and caring. He is wise in that he knows when to use Creators power and just as much when not to. He understands that if he uses the gift in a bad way that it will come back on him. Read the White Buffalo Calf Woman's story. What happen to the warrior who sought after the woman in an incorrect way. It is not only that it is wrong to take what is not yous it is also dangerous. Creator is not some figment of your mind but a living Entity who does not like what he has set up to be corrupted. Young man heed my words I have been on this earth a long time and have seen much. With respect I am called "Little Old Man"
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i`m glad that there other people who understands that we don`t have much more time
to find back to a life in respect for mother earth and the creation.
it`s time fight againt ignoranz, jealousy, fear and see thats more then evrybodys small world.
ho
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do you think the spirits a lying????
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ho
Merry Christmas to you too!
;)
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merry christmas to all here.
;D
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do you think the spirits a lying????
I had hoped you would answer my question - but ok, I will answer yours.
All the Native cultures I have visited have told me that there are good and bad spirits. Actually, when thinking of it, the people who told me repeatedly to be careful with bad spirits since those will lead you astray and lie to you, were the Blackfoot on the reserve in Alberta.
But since you are doing your ceremonies "The Blackfoot way" and have, according to yourself, a great teacher, I am sure you know that the answer to your question would be: Yes, it is quite possible.
However, I would rather not discuss spirits (especially spritis that "belong" to Native cultures) here on the Internet.
So back to my question:
Do you think Native spiritual leaders and Elders are wrong when they say non-Native "European" ceremonies could be very dangerous?
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Good and bad.. and sometimes the good do what needs to be done.
I don't know about spirits "belonging" to one or another, it's something I am completely ignorant on and would need to be educated.. gives something to ponder though. How could it be? Time, space, dimension.. is it forever or just for the life time.. interesting, and I know it does not belong here, the discussion of. But, wanted to acknowledge. Thank you.
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As Jobst has become the main topic here, I've changed the title to reflect this and have merged in the other thread from member intros. I personally think Devalon, if he is or was authorized as a ceremonial leader by the Blackfoot, has sold out by going to Europe to sell ceremonies to non-Blackfoot and non-NDNS, spawning frauds like Jobst.
But unless and until we hear more about Devalon, preferably from the Blackfoots, I'm going to leave him in Research needed, at least for now.
Further discussion on Devalon can go here: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2515.0
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Good move. Small Legs is another matter and his response has been very lacking. Manfred will keep blissfully dancing to the music of his own making. I hope he doesn't hurt himself or anyone else. He, like a lot of others, is oblivious to the very real pain and suffering NDN people have endured for generations and the impact on NDNs when our spirituality is appropriated. It's all too easy to become frustrated and monotonous with these people but then again it's hard to reason with people who have no ears.
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it could be evrytime doangerous to run ceremonies.
no matter of native or not.
it depands of the person and the spirits.
thank you for listing me as a fraud.
you made my day.
smile
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thank you for listing me as a fraud.
now you have your own discussion in esotericforum, enjoy it... ???
http://www.esoterikforum.de/schamanismus/36601-fraud-betrueger-scharlatan.html
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now you have your own discussion in esotericforum, enjoy it... ???
http://www.esoterikforum.de/schamanismus/36601-fraud-betrueger-scharlatan.html
http://www.esoterikforum.de/schamanismus/34223-kulturraub.html
now his discussion...sundance....
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„Wandering Star“ I was lead to do sweatlodges over several years by Long Time Traveling, my friend and one of my spiritual mentors. Even though he encouraged me to introduce my own elements coming from our culture, I cannot deny my indigenous teachers. But I try to be open, in the sense of the „wandering shaman“, for ceremonies from all spiritual teachers whih cross my path. I also am inspired by ancestors from the spiritual world to bring ancient ceremonies from our cultural region into our times.
"Wandering star"
http://www.kdfnet.de/index.html
http://www.kdfnet.de/medizinrad/medrad.htm
medicine w. sun bear
http://www.kdfnet.de/termine/termine.html
sweatlodge events
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renee,
i`m sorry that this hurts youall so much.
but it`s not a good way to write me messages and call me prostitute.
i hope you will see sometimes clearer and i wish you the best my friend.
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Mr Jobst has started quite an interesting discussion in a German language esoteric forum in which he whines about having been treated inappropriately by members of NAFPS, although he didn't listen to advice given by ndn members here and instead was quite rude.
Below, I translated a part of the posts in that thread. I apologize for the continuous lack of respect and rudeness expressed by posters in that forum – they only respect their own wishes, and plastics and sellouts who confirm these wishes. What they don't like gets comfortably brushed off with comments like „the Lakota aren't all shamans“, that ndn nations/ persons hold different views re allowing Euros to native ceremonies, and that one doesn't need to be liked by all ndns, just by the spirits.
Jobst uses the nick of „thunderbird“ in this forum.
http://www.esoterikforum.de/schamanismus/36601-fraud-betrueger-scharlatan.html
Thread: FRAUD / conman / charlatan
„23/12/2009, 09:02
User: Thunderbird
age: 40
posts: 419
Hello my dears,
once again a new old topic.
In the USA, there are tendencies of natives (Indians) and also white persons who believe that ceremonies like the sweatlodge and other things belong to these tribal cultures and may not be passed on to white persons.
Natives passing them on, i.e. teaching, are seen as a fraud there.
White persons working with this and selling this are also a fraud.
There is a forum there warning against such frauds.
They are looking in the internet for websites e.g. selling sweatlodges. This will be checked in that forum and one is added to this negative list or not.
There are also stooges in Germany who report peculiarities back to America.
So don't be surprised when – if you run a website – you perhaps read something negative about you on the internet.
23/12/2009, 09:36
user: FayInanna
Hi Wacha Nabi,
I know what set them off in your case.
There is an article somewhere on your site which describes a sweatlodge which is covered with plastic tarps, with the comment this was traditional.
This is what set off the abettors from the German speaking forum now – they pass on this info to the Nafps site.
Don't let it bother you, they're just bonkers. However, I also think sweatlodges covered with plastic tarps are dangerous.
Greetz,
Nana
23/12/2009, 11:47
user: Animalspirit
Hi Wacha Nabi!
I don't know what was the cause, but I assume your issue points at the Declaration of War of the Lakota. It says there that the seven sacred rituals may only be practiced by Indians or tribal members and not by Wannabees (plastic Indians or shamans). And I think this is okay, after all if one is interested in such a ritual, one can turn to the Lakota directly, or to one of their representatives, or simply think about what may have a similar or the same effect and to get this effect with means from one's own country.
BTW I also have to add that I believe it is not only dangerous but also expresses a lack of respect to build a sweatlodge with a plastic tarp.
In criticism by others we may also find things we should take with us on our path and often something will annoy us because it wants to be worked out in us or was mirrored for us...
I think a sweatlodge and a sauna are certainly not the same, but a sauna can be an alternative when one is interested in a modification of the sweatlodge and does not have money and time, or does not see a necessity to fly to the Lakotas. I respect the wish of the Lakota and gladly help them to keep their rituals sacred by not practicing them.
However, this concerns the issue of spirituality or cultural theft [added link to http://www.esoterikforum.de/schamanismus/34223-kulturraub.html ] and I would like to repeat the wonderful words of another forum member:
[quote = Snake] I mentioned before that one must differentiate between technique and culture.
We can be taught the technique, we got culture of our own.Especially here in Germany and Europe we have got deep spiritual roots we can claim. Shamanic knowledge is even hidden in christianity, one just has to take a look.
I recommend to go back to one's own roots.[/quote]
On my site, I only give information about the rituals, which is okay, but I don't practice them and also do not participate in them with non-Indians – as wonderful as these rituals may be. This is my contribution which I gladly give. If it is meant to be, there will be a way, be it in everyday reality or a non-everyday reality.
If that thread has in fact been started for the reason mentioned by FayInanna, you know my opinion on this, and besides, if someone has something against you, there are still other ways and means to block your path. It is important not to give up when you found your path (but this does not mean one stubbornly avoids all criticism), and what do they say so aptly: envy is the highest form of appreciation!
Believe me, there will always be people who like to stir things up and keep themselves busy with this for their lifetime – there are all kinds. Take them as they are or ignore them.
Mitakuye Oyasin,
Animalspirit
23/12/2009, 11:58
user: Thunderbird
Of course one must be careful when working with tarps. It is important not to cover the door, too.
I have slept in a hut covered like that after the sweatlodge.
The ground breathes, the door will let in air. Has been tried and tested since long and also gets checked whether everything's alright. It's just that it rains a lot here and blankets will get soaked.
I put up fotos at my site which show one covered by a tarp. I never claimed this was traditional.
On the other hand I dare to bet that natives wouldn't have done it differently in earlier times if they had tarps.
Especially the tribes in the old days were very resourceful and used everything they could lay their hands on. Which is correct. But they were perfect in integrating things.
23/12/2009, 13:51
user: Thunderbird
I mainly wanted to say that those persons maintaining a website and selling something shamanic there will sooner or later be added to this bad, bad list.
What I think about „cultural theft“ I have made clear in that thread.
23/12/2009, 14:15
user: Animalspirit
Hi Wacha Nabi!
Oh, I understand … nothing any longer … I think Kondor's site got listed by New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans (NAFPS) a short time ago, because of his condor dance.
Provided it's that group of people you mean.
Cf Declaration of War ... and Interview (in Englisch) ...
[translator's note: link to the site of Hey... magazine]
There was a site that used to go by the name of Wall of Shame but it doesn't exist any longer. But Hanksville is still around.
And here's the current denunciation site and the List of 2005 ...
I mean, your registration with that forum [translator's note: i.e. NAFPS] seems to have been a shot in your own foot, Wacha Nabi, don't you agree?
Although you say on the one hand it is okay for you to get labeled there, only to deny this later....
Here is the current Deathlist...
shocked greetings,
Animalspirit
23.12.2009, 14:54
user: Sharii
Hallo Wacha Nabi!
On the other hand I dare to bet that natives wouldn't have done it differently in earlier times if they had tarps.
Especially the tribes in the old days were very resourceful and used everything they could lay their hands on. Which is correct. But they were perfect in integrating things.
Exactly!!! Interestingly, our TV even shows reports like the one about a few young natives at their first powwow trail who were accompanied by a camera. And they showed this old medicine chief who does a sweat ceremony on his own. No, the camera and its operator were not inside with him. But there was a huge tarp on the lodge (ugh! Eek!) and the man didn't make any fuss at all!!! He just lifted his feathered fan in greeting and went into the lodge. Now really! That doesn't go at all! He should stick to his traditions!
Things are never as bad as they seem. People who prefer to have a look at other plates instead of eating what's on theirs can be found everywhere... You don't have to be friends will ALL natives to be accepted by the spirits!
23/12/2009, 15:04
user: Animalspirit
Hi!
Wacha Nabi certainly didn't do everything wrong as these FRAUD fanatics say, but since it caused such a commotion in the forum and in him, we should think about what one can do to keep things „authentic“. I don't assume such commotion will be done about nothing. Something must be to it. Okay, it is wrong to over-simplify, but not to differentiate! I just had an intense look at your homepage, Wacha Nabi, and I think it questionable to go multi-pronged. One cannot unite shamanism and Reiki (there is no shamanic Reiki! Shamanism is no Reiki method or magic...!!! - these are two different ways of life and philosophies! Otherwise it is just an eso hodgepodge for me, and this makes the FRAUDS fanatics (?) simply right and I can understand them and agree to them.
Shamanism and Reiki is likewise absurd as shamanism and angels... or Turkish fried sausages...
But sometimes one has to gather experience first to realize that one cannot walk several spiritual paths at the same time and that shamanism is no disguise for miscellaneous incompatible practices.
No offence, just my opinion.
Greetz,
Animalspirit
23/12/2009, 15:15
user: Rotmilan [i.e. Red kite]
AUTHENTIC – is everything which I back from deep conviction and with all my soul.
Especially shamanic work is extremely individual.
I cannot do anything with plastics, with the wanabis, those from whom you see much „want to“ but very little ability, those who indiscriminately gather and use, partly because it fits nicely into the Esoteric business.
THAT is what I reject, I denounce this and I will act and speak against it even more intensely in future.
I have met lots of people whose way of practicing I cannot share, but who do this out of conviction and whose path I fully respect and appreciate. They are authentic.
We live in modern times and I, for one, use everything I can get. Going into nature fully from time to time (if this is still possible today) helps not to lose connection to the traditions and to earth. To shut off modern times means to close one's eyes to reality, to the spirits of our time and the problems of our time.
I daresay that you, Wacha Nabi, do the sweatlodge ceremony more authentic as perhaps Lakota who don't really have a connection to their own culture. Surprise: even Lakota aren't ALL shamans rooted deeply in their culture.
Just stand above the internal dispute of the natives which is carried to the outside this way, stay with yourself and in yourself and those who are able to see will realize. The others.... well, so be it.
23/12/2009, 15:31
user: Thunderbird
[…]
Quite frankly, I purposely got into this business in that fraud-forum because I believe the ceremonies come from the spirits and no person has intellectual property rights. Everything has just to be done with the proper respect.
I also don't say my sweatlodges are originally Blackfoot, but in the style of.
Of course it is important to hear other people's opinion. Am not infallible.
23/12/2009, 17:37
user: Rotmilan
Hey,
I don't read your posts as being AGAINST me or us...
That's all okay the way it is. Sometimes, a tempest just has to come and one should stand to it, or even kindle it, because a tempest can have a cleansing effect.
I don't shy away from fire or storm nor abyss, if something is really important to me and if it is really meaningful.
Concerning respect. There is respect of tradition by continuing it. To simply take something of course shows no respect. But this is about traditions which were even released by groups of Natives. They happen to be at strife.“
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These people seem to have missed the boat..
I've been on forums where there's been a 'real' dispute.. I did not see that here. I saw people giving their views, but wasn't fanatic or a tempest or uproar or anything.. wasn't even a fight. LOL
Well, it is not possible for a person to learn what they cannot grasp. <shrug>
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Jobst has so much invested in his ceremony selling and fraud, he can't give it up. Even though he couldn't (or wouldn't) answer the questions we put to him, he still couldn't face uyp to how he is doing wrong. And like so many in Nuage he is so used to thinking in very western terms, that individual wishes (or even selfishness) outweighs what a community needs and has long insisted are the right way to do things. Look at how many times he said "I, I, I" and so on, saying how proud he was to be called a fraud (even though I think I am the first one to do this with this post), and even not caring if people may die because he doesn't know enough to be able to do a sweatlodge.
It may be posing as shaman with his fake Lakota name is all he has in life. I ran into a few white "chiefs" in Sweden when I gave talks on the tour in Europe in 2004. (Annika remembers this.) Even when told directly they were doing wrong, they couldn't stop. Without their ceremony selling and naive people looking to them for guidance, they'd just be elderly men no one paid attention to.
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oh you know soooo much.
i can`t stop till the grandfathers tell me to stop.
it`s my way and i really invested much. not even money much more sweat, pain and blood.
the only one who thinks in former western terms is you.
i live now not yesterday. and now is time for toleranz not to stay in past.
in this way its ok for me if yxou call me fraud. because i know what i am, not you !!!
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oh you know soooo much.
i can`t stop till the grandfathers tell me to stop.
Have you ever wondered why these grandfathers are telling you to hurt and disrespect thousands of Native Americans?
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i hurt nobody.
i do all with respect.
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oh you know soooo much.
i can`t stop till the grandfathers tell me to stop.
it`s my way and i really invested much. not even money much more sweat, pain and blood.
the only one who thinks in former western terms is you.
i live now not yesterday. and now is time for toleranz not to stay in past.
in this way its ok for me if yxou call me fraud. because i know what i am, not you !!!
You just proved my point. You used the word "I" and "me" so much, more than half a dozen times. You don't care about Natives.
You only care about yourself and don't care who you harm, or what lies you tell, even to yourself.
"Grandfathers" are not speaking to you. You are hearing the echoes of your own wishes, which you imagine are something else.
And yes, you do nothing but harm. You harm the tribe you falsely claim to be doing the ways of. You harm all Natives by your falsehoods. And you harm those you do ceremony for, by giving them a false version.
I also think that sooner or later you will physically or mentally harm someone with your very dangerous false version of a sweatlodge. You don't know what you are doing.
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i hurt nobody.
i do all with respect.
You are hurting people, they have spoken and stated so, yet you do not hear their voices. You are dis respecting those same people, and the generations that came before them.. yet, you do not hear their voices.
You hear your own voice saying it's ok because of 'you'. Because 'you' think, 'you' feel, 'you' believe. It's all about you, and no one else.
I am not NA but my eyes are opening to what community means. Community is not I, Me or Mine. It matters not what 'you' are wanting.. if the community is in opposition. In this case, the *real* native community is in opposition.. if you respected the beliefs you are tampering with you would honor that opposition, and not continue on because of 'me, my, mine' attitude.
I seriously doubt any NA grandfathers would be telling you to carry forward and ignore the voices of the community to which they belong, and .. of which you are taking..
You do not see or hear the harm/hurt you are creating.. you are deaf and blind.
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The pathology is interesting.
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Where is Manfred's mentor Small Legs in all of this? He certainly hasn't rushed to Manfred's defense. Perhaps he is laying low until all this passes over. I wonder what Small Leg's people would think of him passing Manfred Piegan/ Blackfoot Confederacy ceremony. Manfred was your pipe passed to you by Small Legs? Was the sweat lodge also passed to you by him? Who else has ceremony been passed to over there? Do you pass pipes to others. You say you work with spirit. It is one thing to believe and quite another to know.
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Jobst is a prime example of why so many peaople are against allowing any nons to attend any ceremony. However he will not listen and seems to enjoy the attention so I think the warning has been made about him, now just ignore him.
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you always show with you fingers against others. look 3 fingers look back to you.
maybe i wirte often i or me. please think about, i`m no native english speaker.
and i give hear my opion, i don`t speak for others like you. let them speak for them self.
you always judges, only what you says is right.
in germany we say " kehre erst vor deiner tür" that means before you start to judge look at your own things.
you tell me that i lies. look in your own heart.
the creator will read mine. and not you.
thats enough for me.
i show him my respect and every person on this earth. but i don`t show respect for intoleranz and judging in your way (not all of you here).
wish you the best.
ho
wacha nabi
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Here on the reservation were life is hard for the people
Our lives are even harder when people like this continue
to abuse our culture. He hurts all of us and just like a
Euro-german-man he believes he is right no matter
what, he claims he is following the creator just like
hilter. He can not see his hand in front of him killing
the people.
wacha nabi you are doing wrong
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just like who? hilter? who is this?
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Manfred was your pipe passed to you by Small Legs? Was the sweat lodge also passed to you by him? Who else has ceremony been passed to over there? Do you pass pipes to others. [/quote]
Could you please answer these questions
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if i tell you from whom i got all this gifts what will you do?
call him fraud?
indictly this was given from the grandfathers.
directly you don`t have to know because
i see what witch hunt you do here.
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This is not a witch hunt it started as
question and you did not answer and
yes we have the right to question you.
The native ways is if we ask how and why
you have to tell us, if you do not then
you do not have the right to these things
and we can take them from you.
Each man must tell the people which ceremony
was performed to obtain the gifts and how many times
and who taught him, who gave him the pipe, who did
the ceremony to get these rights and how many times.
The problem with all of this is there is a way to do these things
and this way is a thousand years old.
When we ask and you will not tell us
that means you don't have the right and that you are
a fraud.
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I also just seen a picture of you on the web
you are just a young man how can you do
this??
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Doesn't this man claim to have a Native American grandfather, has anyone asked about his genealogy. To me he sounds like a fraud and if he does have any Indian ancestry that just compounds the crime with the insult. When ever anyone who is not Native performs ceremonies an charges for those ceremonies its wrong, unethical and an insult to the people to whom the ceremonies belong...
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OK then lets simply ask if you pass pipes to others and if you also pass on sweat lodge ceremonies.
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just like who? hilter? who is this?
Just like Hitler, Manfred.
Hitler used a made up religion which promoted Aryan supremacy. He too thought he was doing the right thing in his heart, and he ended up killing millions.
You're making up your own religion, Manfred, for your own ends, and selling it under false pretenses. For that matter, no spiritual guide actually has to put an advertisement on the internet for the general public, ever, period, or would ever consider doing so.
That's what the people here are trying to tell you.
Open your ears.
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Hi everybody,
I've just read through this whole thread.
It's unbelievable in what an offending way this guy acts and writes ... that's only embarrassing :-[
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Edited to add: Herr Jobst meanwhile assured us he is not the author of the post written by 'guest X'.
Fyi a translation of an anonymous contribution in a German language forum; however, I have reason to believe that this 'guest X' might be Manfred Jobst:
…...................
guest X
title: INGEBORG (German HEAD-Indian)
date: Jan 18, 2010 – 03:10
Thank you!
After 9 years, my website experiences an appreciation in which I almost had ceased to believe – with the support of your abysmal stupidity!!
And.. R**** = caution = the oh-so-educated 'educatedindian' apparently is dyslexic – at least, despite all education, cannot read properly!
Doesn't matter …. this **newagefraud** (sorry, it's from December already) 'thingy' was absolute laughing material this weekend.... Thanks, Thanks, Thanks !!
But allow me (after all) a question:
How sick do you happen to be ??
Do you have an orgasm
(or if male: do you jerk off)
when posting at NEF [sic] ??
YOU NEED – professional – HELP...
really !!
**Note = “Ingeborg“** posts almost daily at US forum „newagefraud.org“ in a nauseating way against everything and everybody which/who comes from Europe … in an undifferentiated way, ignorant and – I'll say – slimy (brown-nosing) … combined with remarkable characteristics: the name implies „female“ … **her** profile in this forum says (said?) = „male“ ! So = this poor creature REALLY needs help !!!!**
FUNNY... and „thanks“ because there is, by God, more important things in this – our – life !!
But it is fun... somehow.
...................
Well, a certain website might experience somewhat more traffic, but that doesn't equate with more appreciation.
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Fyi a translation of an anonymous contribution in a German language forum; however, I have reason to believe that this 'guest X' might be Manfred Jobst:
…...............
or???????????? maybe a student of kohfink????????? ???
oder vielleicht ist dieser gast x ein student von kohfink???(tacansina)
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'siyo wacha nabi
Maybe I can give you an example that will illustrate why the people object to what you were taught and what you are doing.
Imagine a Catholic priest deciding that he was going to start training anyone who is interested about how to conduct a catholic mass. He is a priest, after all, and he knows exactly how everything should be done right down to the prayers that are to be said for every season of the year and for every ceremony and sacrament the RCC has ever had as a part of their dogma. Once the "students" are trained he sends them out to both conduct masses and to teach others to do the same. Is this right? The answer should be simple - no it is not.
You see, in this example the priest, even though he is a part of the RCC and consecrated to conduct a mass and all ceremonies and sacraments, is not authorized to independently decide to train others as priests. He does not have the authority to train others or to give them the right to conduct masses, ceremonies and sacraments. Most surely those whom he trained are not real priests and are in violation of the very traditions and standards of the church they are supposed to represent through their spiritual work.
The same applies to those native peoples, including those who are enrolled members of a federally recognized tribe, who go anywhere and start conducting ceremonies for the purpose of training others to do likewise. They have no authority from their councils or elders to do anything like that. Indeed, the opposite is true - their councils and elders state plainly that they are not to do this.
This is why so many native people are telling you that regardless what is in your heart that what you were taught to do was not authorized and is considered wrong by the very tribes from whom the ceremonies and rituals derived. In the example of the priest - those whom he trained are likely of a good and spiritual heart but they are still not right to conduct ceremonies by the originating source - the RCC in this example.
nvwatohiyadv
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hallo ingeborg,
jetzt wende ich mich mal direkt an dich?
was soll ich gemacht haben?
ich habe mich hier nicht als gast angemeldert.
damit hab ich nichts zu tun.
wenn dann schreib ich es auch offen mit meinem namen.
das gehört sich auch so.
wahrscheinlich ist der beitrag gelöscht worden.
aber ich versichere dir dass ich sowas nicht gemacht habe.
alles liebe
wacha nabi
-
d.
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kann nur eines sagen, das ist nicht von mir.
meine seite gibt es auch noch nicht seit 9 jahren.
wenn dann sage ich es direkt mit meinem namen
und auch nicht auf einem solchen niveau.
ho
wacha nabi (manfred jobst)
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Mr Jobst,
Since the majority of the people on this forum speak english, please refrain from posting in german.
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ok i`ll try.
i never posted as a guest x
not in this forum or in some one else.
this is not the way i talk to other people.
if two people have different sights of things, they can argue in a friendly way and not like this.
and if if have to tell something, i tell it with my name.
thats they way i think.
ho
wacha nabi
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i would like to ask you a few questions
do you call your self a lodge leader
do you call your self a shaman
do you call your self a pipe carrier
if you do this then you can call you self a False Prophet
because you have a flock of souls following your teachings
you have to be asked to do a lodge, each lodge has one reason to be done
each lodge has different teachings that come from that lodge
when you accept doing a lodge then you accept the responsibility for every one and every thing that happens, before, during, and after each lodge
and if you are teaching false truths, then you are a true false prophet
and for every soul you miss lead then you and only you will held accountable
do you want that responably
think of your future, in the spirit world, what will they call you there
what kind of judgment will you get
and do you have insurance, because when people find out you are a false prophet you may be sued
people are very vindictive, petty, and self serving
i hope you stop and ask if this is real or false, and that you harm no one, or miss lead any one
may you path be straight and you circle of friends be strong
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have you ever been at one of the lodges i did?
no?
so you can`t feel if i would tell you the thruth here.
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I wonder if this is how some german get the ideal that they can steal,
incorporate, others cultures and claim them as their own and still think
that they are right. A wrong is a wrong no matter how you look at it
the only thing that can happen is he hurts those who follow him. For that
matter what is wrong with these people they have no feeling or guilts as
they comittment genocide against a people.
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It's the petty ego. "I want to" "I am" "I must" "I need" "I have to" "They need me" "They told me" "They ask me" Any way you look at the frauds words, they are speaking always of their own self. It is ego, no matter what line you draw from their words, it always leads back to their very own self.
It is unfortunate at best.
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have you ever been at one of the lodges i did?
no?
so you can`t feel if i would tell you the thruth here.
No one "feels" the truth. Something simply is true or not. What we have seen on this board many times is that you usually lie, often even to yourself.
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Ceremony not done by the original people that owns it is worthless. It does not have the power that it is supposed to have. Any power it may have is corrupted and not to be trusted. Please forgive the Tonto speak but it is to be considered "BAD MEDICINE". No knowledgeable person would go anywhere near it. "LittleOldMan"
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Fyi a translation of an anonymous contribution in a German language forum; however, I have reason to believe that this 'guest X' might be Manfred Jobst:
…...................
guest X
hello ingeborg,
please tell me your reasons why i schould be guest x?
i wrote you two messages but no answers came back.
please tell me about this reasons.
i only can tell you, i`m not guest x
best wishes
wacha nabi
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@Herr Jobst,
sorry for not having addressed this sooner. On the other hand, I've got a real
life which does not always permit my checking forums on a daily basis.
The reason I was under the impression that the ominous 'guest X' happened to
be you was the fact that guest X mentioned I was responsible for an increased
traffic at his website, and that the cause of his hilarity happened in
December already. So I added one and one and, as it turns out, I came to a
wrong result. I have meanwhile adjusted my earlier post.
I would also like to ask you to continue discussing the issue in this thread
instead of taking it to other forums. I did notice the private messages you
sent, but I'd prefer to have this out in the open here.
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hello ingeborg,
it was importent for me to make it clear that i don`t do things like that.
i don`t write things under a wrong name or unkown.
best wishes
manfred
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'siyo wacha nabi
Maybe I can give you an example that will illustrate why the people object to what you were taught and what you are doing.
Imagine a Catholic priest deciding that he was going to start training anyone who is interested about how to conduct a catholic mass. He is a priest, after all, and he knows exactly how everything should be done right down to the prayers that are to be said for every season of the year and for every ceremony and sacrament the RCC has ever had as a part of their dogma. Once the "students" are trained he sends them out to both conduct masses and to teach others to do the same. Is this right? The answer should be simple - no it is not.
You see, in this example the priest, even though he is a part of the RCC and consecrated to conduct a mass and all ceremonies and sacraments, is not authorized to independently decide to train others as priests. He does not have the authority to train others or to give them the right to conduct masses, ceremonies and sacraments. Most surely those whom he trained are not real priests and are in violation of the very traditions and standards of the church they are supposed to represent through their spiritual work.
The same applies to those native peoples, including those who are enrolled members of a federally recognized tribe, who go anywhere and start conducting ceremonies for the purpose of training others to do likewise. They have no authority from their councils or elders to do anything like that. Indeed, the opposite is true - their councils and elders state plainly that they are not to do this.
This is why so many native people are telling you that regardless what is in your heart that what you were taught to do was not authorized and is considered wrong by the very tribes from whom the ceremonies and rituals derived. In the example of the priest - those whom he trained are likely of a good and spiritual heart but they are still not right to conduct ceremonies by the originating source - the RCC in this example.
nvwatohiyadv
I didn't see a reply to my explanation, Wacha Nabi. Does this explain at all why the people are upset about the whole issue?
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i never judged you i only warned you
you telling your version of a truth in your mind, is that the real truth
if i was presented with the opportunity to attend your lodge i would ask you these four questions first
1 what is your real name, so it can be checked out
2 what native nation do you represent, not a club, not a business
3 who from that native nation will represent you, someone alive to ask
4 what path was given to you by your nation, and are you still on this path
many natives never need a healing lodge, many natives do not have a "Indian names"
and the idea of charging even a penny is like charging to go to a church
making excuses for the money for supply's for the lodge, not valid, the people requesting the lodge supply these things
and in doing that lodge you now have to follow up with the souls that went to your lodge, do you, its you responsibility
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He has some guts and at the very least does not run and hide like his mentor Small Legs. He needs to understand that generations of NDNs have suffered to keep these ways alive. This is about a people's survival not some individuals bloated ego. The pretension of pretend NDNs and their misguided sense of entitlement to NDN ceremony is very offensive to true traditionals. Try to understand the sacrifice and pain NDN people have experienced. It's very real and it hurts like hell.
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I was thinking about sacrifice last night. When you've given your life for something, to have that 'something' taken away really creates a deep and painful hole in a person. It leads or can lead to a drop in faith that is near impossible to ever truly heal. It is a pain that turns many away from the very path they sacrificed to save. It is not a good thing. These people, even the ones who mean well, just don't realize what "sacrifice" means.
What have they had to sacrifice? Some dollars. It's repugnant. I despise spiritual 'capitalism'. It breeds phony cheap shallow egos that mask as 'spiritual people'. Puke. Hate it.
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wacha wannabe, I think you been told to quit what your doing because it's not right. It's not right with the community of people on this forum who represent many different Indigenous American peoples. But if you insist on carrying on the sweats, at least take our advice: DON'T USE PLASTIC COVERINGS. Your putting yourself and everyone else who enters it in danger. Take from the pros...we know what were're talking about.
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I've twice posted an example for wacha nabi that outlines an example of why native people do not agree with what he is doing but I've yet to see a reply. Maybe his English is too weak to follow my words. Perhaps I should state it in Tsalagi?
NDN Outlaw says it best - too many ancestors were tortured and killed for merely speaking their language let alone practicing their culture and traditions. It took quite a bit of courage to keep these things alive. To use these things without proper training (over the course of years) or authorization is seen as an insult to their memory, efforts and sacrifice.
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It will not come as a surprise that Herr Jobst did not give up selling ceremony and presenting himself as a shame-on after all the elusiveness, self-centeredness, and entitlement he showed in this thread.
Jobst joined a hobbyist club in Bavaria, the Southernstars, using his fake ndn name. The club organise an annual Powwow in the vicinity of Munich. The Powwow is combined with a general Western and Trapper Festival and goes by the name of „Indian and Trapper Festival“ resp ITF, so there is alcohol sold on the premises. Another part of the show is a presentation of various birds of prey, among them owls. They publish photo series of the events, so e.g. the 2013 one here: http://www.southernstars.de/neu/itf-2013-fotos/ (these include photos of owls).
The Southernstars also participated in the fake documentary on Cynthia Ann Parker which was mentioned in this thread: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4245.0
Jobst was one of their members appearing in this docu and played the part of Parker's Comanche adoptive father, in the very outfit you can see in his photo at the Southerstars' site:
http://www.southernstars.de/neu/portfolio-view/wacha-nabi-manfred-jobst/
This site shows all their 'Indian' members:
http://www.southernstars.de/neu/mitglieder/indianer/
Additionally, Jobst also continues to sell his services as a shame-on, e.g. at the premises of a Nuage shop in the town of Freising. The shop seems to cover more or less the entire range of Nuage and altmed, with events/lectures/seminars offered on aura reading, chakra reading, family constellation, vedic astrology, energy medicine, and they also advertise lectures by anti-vaxxers. The shop is also used as a meeting point for a group of „Friends of Bruno Gröning“ (see here: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4229.0 ).
From May 16-18, 2014, Jobst presented himself during an event organised by the shop, the so-called „Experience and Light Days“:
http://www.atlantis-freising.de/erlebnis--u.-lichttage.html
Experience and Light Days
Friday May 16/ Saturday, May 17/ Sunday, May 18, 2014
Lectures, Workshops, Chanting, Film , Exhibition
Entrance ticket one day € 12 / three days € 30 [...]
All three days:
Our shaman Wacha Nabi
aka Manfred Jobst will set up his „Indian Tppi“ [sic[ in front of our shop all three days and offer „shamanic individual counseling“ which will be attuned to the situation of the participants, smudging and cleansing ceremonies, shamanic healing rituals, and spiritual life counseling.
The services offered during the event will not be for free:
Aura photo with Aura-Chakra Reading with Marius, 30 minutes incl. Photo € 52
Card Reading with Angelita (Friday afternoon and Saturday), 30 minutes € 37.50
Energy Medicine „Essences and Elixir Reading“ with Dr. Doris Hauk, 30 minutes € 30
Vedic Astrology (please submit DOB, place of birth and exact time per e-mail in advance), starting from € 46
Shamanic Healing Work with Wacha Nabi, 30 minutes € 30 / 60 minutes € 50
Emphasis mine
The shop also organises further regular events with Jobst – so-called „shamanic evenings“, e.g. on Tuesday March 4, 2014 and Tuesday March 25, 2014; further events took place in 2013 (see http://www.atlantis-freising.de/dezember-2013.html ). Participants pay € 12 for each „shamanic evening“.
On his website, Jobst still claims Devalon Small Legs as his teacher:
http://www.ganz-sein-muenchen.de/vorstellung/
Wacha Nabi – translated this means sacred life/teacher and means the task which has been given by the grandfathers.
In his person, the medicine man and shaman unites the Western world as well as the world of his grandfather, a Chickasaw Indian. [...]
The biggest influence was Devalon Small Legs, also known as „Long Time Traveling“. The Blackfoot medicine man taught Wacha Nabi, along with many other things, the sacred sweatlodge ceremony with the task of introducing it to the people in Europe.
He made Wacha Nabi a pipe carrier and a sun dancer. [...]
Jobst sells a variant of Nuage practices: http://www.ganz-sein-muenchen.de/zusammenfassung-angebote/
Among these are shamanic work, massages, and energetic work. Shamanic work consists of shamanic counseling at € 50 an hour, and 'clearings' at € 100. Jobst also sells sweatlodges and vision quest but does not publish price tags; clients have to inquire the respective rates.
With Jobst's description of a sweatlodge, it is quite interesting what gets mentioned and what doesn't: http://ganz-sein-muenchen.de/schwitzh%C3%BCtte/
Please bring along:
We all enter the sweatlodge lightly clothed, if possible natural fabrics, in a T-shirt, shorts, or a light dress
Since the ground often is cold and wet, please wear sandals
One towel to put on the ground to sit on and another towel for protection against the hot steam
One towel to use afterwards
One pack of tobacco
Various small fabric remnants (cotton, linen) in different colours [...]
Conditions for participation:
Everyone is responsible for themselves
No drugs
No alcohol
If there are any problems (of physical or mental nature), please talk to the sweatlodge leader before.
Apparently, Jobst sells mixed lodges and he also seems to accept women any time.
His advice that participants were responsible for themselves in the lodge is also not in accordance with traditions.