NAFPS Forum

General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Spaewife on March 16, 2008, 06:38:57 pm

Title: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on March 16, 2008, 06:38:57 pm
maybe there is another thread and I mis searched, but..

Who is this dude?

http://www.torah-voice.org/Utah%20meetings%20release.htm

http://www.torah-voice.org/Native%20Joes%20and%20LDS%20Church.htm

Not sure if this is the same group or not.   http://www.turtletribe.org/
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: frederica on March 16, 2008, 08:11:42 pm
Well I see William Scott Anderson aka Blue Otter. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=137.msg466#466
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on March 16, 2008, 08:56:56 pm
ok that explains one of them..

This link puts someone else into the mix with the aztlan and otter and etc. I don't know if these are all seperate or part of the same under aliases


http://www.rootsvt.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=88&Itemid=78
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: frederica on March 16, 2008, 10:08:31 pm
Here is the SunDance site. http://www.turtletribe.org/Aztlan%20sundance.htm  TenRivers if you look at his site, it look like that Lost Tribe group, and Lost Book of Mormons. I see the Mormons have donated money for the SunDance. Now the Aztlan Native American Cultural Art Center is another thing. Thomas Eagle Bear Shash and some from the Center tour as performers doing "Fire Dances".  I believe I've seen them at a Pow Wow a few years ago. Some of them claim to be decendents of the Mimbreno Apache which I doubt are still around, but their performances look very Aztec. I don't know how they are mixed up with the other two. The ones I met seem like decent people, so I hope they don't get burned.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on March 17, 2008, 12:04:02 am
ok see this is where I am confused too.  the torah site has the Aztlan site to be donated to, and the 'blue otter' person is connected some how through it all.
I'm trying to figure out if they are legit or frauds. 

something just isn't  making sense to me. 
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: educatedindian on March 17, 2008, 12:07:54 am
As tempting as it might be to endorse a page saying George Bush is the Devil, or at least a demon from the Book of Revelations....

This Torah Voice page is so bizarre, a mix of End Times and Mormonism and Christian Zionism and...plus Wm Anderson and his fake claims about Hopis.

The real Mimbrenos were forced onto Ft Sill rez. Some also went to the Mescalero rez. This "Membreno Apache of Southern Colorado" are pretty out there.

http://63.247.196.50/Aztlan%20the%20Homeland.htm
"AZTLAN:
Homeland of the Chicano (Red People)"

Most Chicano activists use the term Brown People.

"The plane circling the mass rally in support of immigration reform near Fort Worth, Texas, clearly had the word "AZTLAN" painted on the wings.  That night I tuned in the Spanish TV stations here in Southern Colorado. I understood very little, but noted the word "AZTLAN," was quoted by several of the
Chicano who were interviewed. Curiously, just a few weeks earlier, Ten Rivers had named me to the board of directors of Iglesia de Aztlan (the assembling of Aztlan) as an ex-officio advisor.

Chartered 10 years earlier by Ten Rivers and his small band of Membreno Apache, Iglesia de Aztlan already had repurchased about 80 acres of ceremonial lands in the mountains near Gardner, Colorado. Here they have resumed their sweats and sundances which have accommodated the spiritual vortex for this return of the Chicano."

Yeah, but...Sundances aren't Apache. And Apache sweats are a bit different.

"As the last stewards -- or as Ten Rivers puts it, "the last to surrender," the sacred Four Corners region of southern Colorado and Utah and northern New Mexico and Arizona, the Membreno Apache were the logical choice to steward the vision of the return to Aztlan."

The Four Corners are Dine territory.

"Ten Rivers' ancestors have lived continuously in this region since it was encountered by Ponce de Leon, the Spanish explorer, who his own ancestors served."

Uh, de Leon was way over in Florida and the southeast.

"But there was something familiar about Ten Rivers' description of the lands stewarded by this once fiercest of Apache tribes who were punished by being given no reservation lands and insulted because they have had to buy back the ceremonial and burial grounds that were stolen after their buffalo were decimated with no regard for their souls or their importance.   The "Four Corners" he described as Aztlan also figured in the past and future prophecies of the Hopi and in the beliefs of the Aztecs."

Yeah, well, lots of evidence say Aztlan was more likely in Sinaloa or Sonora in Mexico.

"The Hopi prophesies and migrations establish ownership ... but only in the Last Days ... for the descendants of the returning Hopi clans. Those clans are today united by the label Chicano, the Red People, whose return to Aztlan has been awaited longer than the U.S. has existed."

Hopi prophecies being united by Chicanos?

"Consequently America's leaders now have a dilemma not unlike the scenario they have provoked in Judea-Samaria. Chicano nationalism now shows every sign of becoming an independent entity in America's West Bank.  Connect this very real demographic foretold by Hopi sages with other Hopi prophecy and it would appear that the days of Anglo-America are numbered.
Maggid ben Yoseif"

Not really. Aztlanistas are a tiny tiny bunch. I doubt if they number more than hundreds out of over 30 million Latinos.

And I have no idea why a group of Latino activists saying they are Mimbeno Apache are using lots of Lakota greetings and ceremonies.

----------

http://www.turtletribe.org/about_turtletribe.htm
Members of the Council of the Tribe of Turtle Island, Inc.:

Abe Walkingbear Sanchez, Bear clan Zuni, president and executive director.
Maggid ben Yoseif Tohokwahu, mixed Hebrew-Cherokee, kiva leader, webmaster and story-teller
Ten Rivers, Membreno Apache, spiritual leader, speaker and founder of Iglesia de Aztlan
Ms. Rickie Hall, an experienced speaking coach who books seminars and international speakers.

Elderquest advisory council members:
Walkingbear, Tohokwahu, Ten Rivers and Hall plus fellow seekers:
Peter Howe of Ireland
Max Gail of Wojohowitz fame on Barney Miller (?!?!)
Carlos Hunt
Jerry Pearson
Tom Fitzgerald

--------------

Abe Walkingbear Sanchez
http://www.armg-usa.com/2.htm
International Business Speaker and Trainer,  
Abe WalkingBear Sanchez
has worked with many hundreds of CEO and Top Business Managers
Groups...Including at the Shakespeare Globe Theater in London.

Read Letters and Comments:

University of Industrial Distribution

Atradius -  London

The Irish Institute of Credit Management

Atradius - Czech Republic

Western Suppliers Association  

Powder Coating Institute

Meet the Worldwide
      -Profit Leaders

  Profit Centered
       Credit
    Grows Worldwide
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on March 17, 2008, 12:40:52 am
Soo probably bogus then? 
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: frederica on March 17, 2008, 01:07:34 am
Confusing, but it looks like it, know for sure most anything Scott Anderson (Blue otter) has to do with, is a scam. I have to check with someone I know in Colorado, the SunDance website is old and only had one hit.  That area has a pretty large Hispanic population. I can't see them doing a Lakota SunDance either.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on March 17, 2008, 12:25:03 pm
I'll wait to see what you hear about them all. 

And I'll note to self, anything associated with the blue otter person is a scam of some sort or another.

Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: frederica on March 17, 2008, 04:48:03 pm
Okay, from what I can tell after talking with someone. They remember it was a while back, and she can't remember who, but someone was brought in to do a SunDance. The Culture Center Land was used but they did not actually do the SunDance. She never had any information on it, as did not know anyone that went to it. Says the area is hard to get to and  like Al said not many people involved in this. Most are preformers. I know the woman I spoke with was a paralegal, said she danced in the summer, and they toured the U.S. and Canada.  So, like Al says, it's still a mystery how this group became involved with Anderson and TenRivers. It would be hard to think of any kind words to say about either.  It would be interesting to know how these two found each other, as they were seperate not to long ago.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 17, 2008, 10:01:05 pm
The information Al gave seems to be enough to show a lot of what is being claimed doesn't fit with reality but here is some more ;   

http://www.torah-voice.org/Native%20Joes%20and%20LDS%20Church.htm  (http://www.torah-voice.org/Native%20Joes%20and%20LDS%20Church.htm)

 
Quote
Membreno Apache  spiritual leader Jimmy Tenrivers, co-founder of Iglesia de Aztlan (assembling of the Homeland) today received a $3,000 check from the LDS Church Foundation to help fund the Sun Dance.

Quote
note:  Maggid ben Yoseif is asking for donations of used Torahs  and Haftorah's for a Torah study at the Eastern Gate of the Sacred Four Corners.  Native Apache and Indio-Chicano who he has come to know in sweat lodges and at other Apache community functions are eager to learn again of the "forgotten covenant" of the Lamanites.

The whole idea of the Laminities comes out of the belief in the lost tribes of Israel. This started back in the early 1600's because people who believed everyone descended from Adam and Eve had to find a way to explain how people ended up in the Americas if this was true.

http://www.kmatthews.org.uk/cult_archaeology/lost_tribes.html (http://www.kmatthews.org.uk/cult_archaeology/lost_tribes.html)
Quote
After the discovery of the New World late in the fifteenth century, Europeans tried to account for how the native peoples who inhabited the land had arrived there. The Bible explained how the peoples of the Old World had spread from the Garden of Eden and medieval writers developed hypotheses about how the three sons of Noah were the ancestors of the populations of the three known continents of Asia, Africa and Europe. These unexpected American Indians had to be explained somehow, as it was unthinkable that they had been overlooked by the divinely inspired Bible
(continues )

Probably that is where the early Mormans got these ideas;   

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon34.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon34.html)

Quote
Is The Mormon Church stuck with an embarrassing book it cannot historically support?
May 16, 2002
By Rick Ross

Mormons grow up with the belief that Native Americans are somehow related to a lost tribe from Israel. That tribe, they are told, came across the ocean about 600 B.C. to America, led by an otherwise unknown Jewish prophet named "Lehi."

To a Mormon this story is history, but to historians it is simply a fiction, concocted by Joseph Smith within his "Book of Mormon." The complete lack of any objective archaeological or historical proof to support such a story is explained away by Mormon apologists to the faithful. (con...)

Science and faith have increasingly collided as the Mormon religion continues on from its early beginnings. Confronted by historical evidence that repeatedly disproves their holy book, Mormons have long hoped for some artifact or research that would support their faith. Some felt that day might have indeed come through research at The Mormon Church-owned Brigham Young University in Provo, where genetic tests were being done during 2000.

Mormon doctrine claims that Lehi's children eventually became two warring factions, which included the good, white Nephites and the bad, brown Lamanites. The Lamanites, eventually killed all the Nephites by 500 A.D. But the bad, brown Laminates continued to live on and are now called Native Americans.

The Book of Mormon originally stated that when Lamanites converted they would then become "white and delightsome." In 1981 the church decided to replace the word "white" with "pure." It has been said that such Mormon beliefs reflect racism. And though every faithful male Mormon may enter its priesthood, blacks were excluded until 1978. Based upon such stories about the Lamanites, modern Mormon missionaries today often feel called to proselytize amongst aboriginal cultures in South America and the Pacific Islands.
It sounds like the Mormons are being quite aggressive about promoting this idea.

http://www.native-languages.org/iaq9.htm (http://www.native-languages.org/iaq9.htm)

Quote
Setting the Record Straight About Native Peoples: Lost Tribes of Israel

Q: Are Native Americans a lost tribe of Israel, Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, or any other people mentioned in the Bible?
A: No. These Biblical events happened only a few thousand years ago. Native Americans were already here.

(con...)

Quote
I have been receiving quite a bit of profanity laced email from Mormons ...

It looks like the Mormons, in their need to confirm their beliefs are willing to support anyone calling themselves Native who will agree with them.

I see all this Mormon stuff about Laminities and lost Israelis is getting mixed with Hopi prophesies. But when you track it back, it leads to stories told by Dorthy Daigle who is reportedly an affiliate of Blue Otter and the Maggid ben Yoseif and claims to have been taught by a Cherokee elder .

http://ezinearticles.com/?Hopi-Prophecy,-Exciting-Fulfillment-Happening!&id=459208  (http://ezinearticles.com/?Hopi-Prophecy,-Exciting-Fulfillment-Happening!&id=459208)

Quote
Hopi Prophecy, Exciting Fulfillment Happening
By Dorothy K Daigle Platinum Quality Author

Dottie has received some revelation regarding the Hopi since Elder Red Hat's passing in December of 2003. She was told by Creator that the prophecy in Ezekiel 37 stating that He would unite the House of Judah and the House of Joseph as one, is the same event as the completion of the Hopi migration back to Jerusalem. She understands from Maggid ben Yoseif that this event must take place before the end of 2008 or else another judgment would be put on the House of Israel, the Ten Northern Tribes of which The House of Joseph is apparently the leader. Apparently, if this union does not occur, Israel will be in for much destruction and chaos! It is also likely that what happens to Israel will happen to the rest of the world so we are all affected!

http://ezinearticles.com/?expert_bio=Dorothy_K_Daigle (http://ezinearticles.com/?expert_bio=Dorothy_K_Daigle)

interesting I see this website says ;
   
Quote
Report this author if you suspect they are involved in any fraudulent practices.

Quote
Dorothy was taught by Cherokee elder and wisdom keeper, John Red Hat Duke, for over ten years in the Keetoowah Cherokee spiritual ways, in Eastern philosophy, and in Judaism. She was raised Christian so she has a good working knowledge of Christianity. She does not claim any religion now, but strives to walk the Red Road spiritual path. She received her call from Creator in the fall of '92, and was then taught by the great prophet Elijah for four years, at which time she received the directive, "Always wear white!" She was given four assurances by Creator when He called her. She was told that she was annointed by the Holy One of Israel, that she would be protected until this work was done, that Creator would go before her whenever He sent her somewhere, and that she did not have to prove herself to anyone. Her calling is to be Creator's witness. She carries wisdom of many years of living under Creator's guidance and direction.
Dorthy Daigle is mentioned in the thread below as an affiliate of Blue Otter. Blue otter 's parents are reported in this thread to have been Mormons.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=137.msg6481#msg6481 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=137.msg6481#msg6481)

looks like a bunch of people with beliefs that don't fit with reality using each other to prop themselves up.

Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: frederica on March 17, 2008, 10:25:05 pm
The information Al gave seems to be enough to show a lot of what is being claimed doesn't fit with reality but here is some moretopic=137.msg6481#msg6481[/url]
looks like a bunch of people with beliefs that don't fit with reality using each other to prop themselves up.
        I think that about sums it up.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on March 18, 2008, 12:23:48 am
Gods that sight is a pain to navigate and read.. laugh..

Basically they are all fraudulent as a 3 dollar bill I take it?

found this one though.. 

http://www.torah-voice.org/Utah%20meetings%20release.htm

enrivers together with Tomas Oso Itsa of the Shash (Bear) Clan, founded Iglesia de Aztlan, (the assembling of the Homeland) in 1998 as a spiritual vessel to accommodate a growing Apache and Chicano-Indio population in southern Colorado.

Tenrivers was one of the first to dance at the annual Sun Dance held at Aztlan's ceremonial grounds near Gardner, CO.  The dance comes from the tradition of Eagle-Feather, who mentored Tomas Oso for 20 years. Eagle-Feather restored the dance -- banned by the U.S. Government for more than 100 years -- in 1976.

http://www.takompark.info/library/mt/archives/2004_10.html

'Eaglebear'

Aztlan: Native American Storytelling, Song, and Dance

The Thanksgiving season is now traditionally celebrated at the Takoma Park Maryland Library with a visit from Tomas Shash, spokesperson and elder of the Atzlan Native American Cultural Arts Center in Gardner, Colorado. This year’s visit from Tomas and the Aztlan dance theatre group will take place in the Children’s Room on Monday, November 8 at 7 p.m.
http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t19048.html

Tomas “Eagle Bear??? Shash of Aztlan Native American Cultural Arts Center of Gardner, Colo., pauses during a traditional Native American performance Saturday morning at Stone Fence Gardens. etc.. 

http://www.stonefencegardens.com/

has a photo  dunno who is who in it though..
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 18, 2008, 02:13:12 am
I'm not sure if all the people involved are phoney. I know good people can sometimes have unusual personal interests and can get involved in some fringe groups.

One thing I overlooked in my post above is that there is a Hopi Elder mentioned as recognizing these people, and this Elder is a real person . Though from what I can see it seems very doubtful the claims the Hopi's recognize these people are true.  From another part of the ezinearticle quoted from above ;

 http://ezinearticles.com/?Hopi-Prophecy,-Exciting-Fulfillment-Happening!&id=459208  (http://ezinearticles.com/?Hopi-Prophecy,-Exciting-Fulfillment-Happening!&id=459208)
Quote
Cherokee elder and wisdom keeper, John Red Hat Duke, met many times with Hopi Chiefs and elders. He was a close personal friend of John Lansa, who Dottie understands was Hopi Chief of Oraibi over 25 years ago. Elder Red Hat was very good friends with the last Chief of Oraibi and consulted with him on some very important timely issues. John Red Hat's group of himself, Dottie, and Dr. Robertson was accepted as the Pahana group that the Hopi have been waiting for for centuries.

The Hopi Chief John Lansa  appears to be a real person and he is mentioned in the website below , though that doesn't mean he actually had a relationship with these people as is being claimed.
 
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:PqTdnjJ8zf0J:www.religionandnature.com/ern/sample/Loeffler--Black
Mesa.pdf+%22John+Lansa%22+Hopi+Oraibi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:PqTdnjJ8zf0J:www.religionandnature.com/ern/sample/Loeffler--Black
Mesa.pdf+%22John+Lansa%22+Hopi+Oraibi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca)
Quote
In early 1971, my wife Katherine and I were invited by traditional Hopis into the kiva, or subterranean sacred ceremonial chamber at Hotevilla on Third Mesa. Present were twenty or so male elders including David Menongye, Thomas Banyacya and John Lansa, husband of Mina Lansa, then the kikmongwi or traditional leader of Old Oraibi.

Was this John Red Hat Duke a real person? He is mentioned in Wikipedia, not that that proves anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Keetoowah_Society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Keetoowah_Society)

Quote
John Red Hat Duke

The late elder John Red Hat Duke (1930-2002), was old enough to be a well known enrollee in both the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and in the United Keetoowah Band. He remembered that his full-blood grandmothers who raised him spoke a now considered-to-be-dead Southern Keetoowah dialect, and that they pronounced Keetoowah as kee-too'-rah, with a trilled "R" sound. Elder Red Hat was born into the Anigilohi (Long Hair) Clan and raised in the Old Cherokee Religion, and later converted to Judaism and became a Rabbi listed in the American Jewish Archives.

Elder Red Hat caught the attention of the Hopi Elders at Oraibi back in the 1960s because of his seeming (at least) partial fulfillment of the Hopi Prophecy, in which one the Hopi called Banaha (True White Brother) would:

1. Appear with two helpers, one male and one female.

2. Would be identified with the color red,

3. Would come from the "largest nation" (Cherokee is the largest Indian Nation),

4. Would wear a red hat or cloak,

5. Would come from the east of Hopi,

6. Would have his own distinctive religion.

7. Would be fair skinned.

John Red Hat Duke was a Cherokee Indian and member of the Keetoowah Nighthawk Society. In the eyes of the Oraibi Kykmongwes (Chiefs), John Red Hat fulfilled all their prophecies but one. After many years of association of John Red Hat with the late Oraibi chiefs John and Mina Lansa, their son, the late Kykmongwe (chief) Mike of Oraibi declared the Hopi Prophecy to be fulfilled, leaving only the future return of the corner of the Sun Clan tablet. Chief Mike was the last Oraibi Kykmongwe, due to the fact that there is no one with the correct clan lineage.

According to Dr. Tim Jones of the University of Arizona, in ancient times, both the Hopi and Cherokee were known as "The Twin Fires", and in Grand Council when a member of either tribe spoke up, everyone stopped speaking and listened.

I doubt that the Hopi really declared these people fulfill the Hopi prophecy, as is being claimed. If this was so, and it was to be announced publicly, I would have thought it would have been announced by the Hopi in a more official way than in an Ezinearticle. and on Wikipedia . Seems pretty unlikely.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: frederica on March 18, 2008, 02:52:10 am
John Red Hat Duke was a real person, who died several years ago. He was Keetoowah. Last I heard Hopi Prophecy only applies to the Hopi. No. I don't think the dancers are fake, The ones we saw were in Aztec regalia. They are preformers.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: educatedindian on March 18, 2008, 02:58:42 am
Something interesting about Tomas Shash and his church. He had a group of whites teaching wildnerness skills to them.

----------

http://www.rootsvt.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=88&Itemid=78

"In the late spring of 2007 a man named Tomas Eaglebear came to central Vermont to visit with friends within the community and share native stories, songs, and dance. While here, Sarah and I had the opportunity to meet him and his son, Bear, at a small gathering and sweat lodge ceremony. Tomas is the elder of the Aztlan Native American Cultural Arts Center in Gardner, Colorado. Here he shares traditional wisdom and imparts the core values of his people. During this meeting he came to find out about our school, Roots. He asked us to meet with him to talk about our school and show him and Bear some of our projects and skills. As dinner progressed, Thomas addressed me with a question that cut straight to the heart of things. It was a moment I will not forget, because of the weight and meaning, and of the growing and wonderful relationship that has formed because of it.

Tomas was raised in a Warm Springs Apache family in New Mexico. In his community it was only a generation in the past that the remaining free groups of his people were forced into reservations after a long and brutal war campaign....

Thomas’s request, his question, was: Will Roots come to Colorado, to his community, to teach Apache people what was stolen from them?
 
Mount Blanca, a holy place for the ApacheI knew immediately that this was something I must do. As a long time student of Tom Brown Jr.’s, a large part of my lineage as a student of these skills is through Stalking Wolf, a Lipan Apache....

Now I was being presented with the opportunity to give something back to the grandchildren of some of the last free native people in this country, and I knew that I must. Sarah was in immediate agreement.

And so it was that in mid August, Sarah, our friend Ed Low, and I began the 2400 mile drive west to Gardner, Colorado, to Aztlan. Aztlan is a community of people that Thomas inspired over twenty years ago and in many ways leads, living the traditions and ways their people have held onto. The members of the community are mainly descendants of the Mimbreno Apache and the Mexican Indian people....

To the south is Mount Blanca, an impressive and forceful presence that Thomas informed us is a sacred place for his people, and one to which many still make pilgrimages. He told us the story of the last time he climbed to the tree line lakes with a seventy eight year old man for just such a reason.

We were greeted as if members of the family. Introductions melted quickly into comfortable conversations. As we met members of Aztlan, I was struck by their openness, generosity, and sense of community, as well as by the fact that each of the members is wholly individual, and genuine. That night, we joined in a sweat lodge, the first of three in the short time that we were there....

We moved quickly using demonstration, explanation, and coaching to pass on bow drill, hand drill, dead fall traps and snares, throwing sticks, slings, flint knapping, atl-atl, sensory awareness, stealth movement, bone work and harpoon heads, tracking, cordage, and a variety of odds and ends from the world of traditional skills....

We found that although most of the people in the community are native people, there are also people of all backgrounds held equally by the community, because, as Thomas explains, what makes one a member of Aztlan is not blood, but intention and lifestyle. To choose fully to follow the old ways and to make community and prayer at the forefront of life is the core of what one needs to become a member.

---------

Yeah, a couple problem with these stories, even beyond something as disturbing as going to white followers of a fraud like Tom Brown.

Mount Blanca was not and is not a sacred site for the Mimbrenos as far as I know. The Chiricahua sacred sites are, naturally, where the Chiricahua homeland was, in the area roughly between Tucson and Nogales.

Mount Blanca is a sacred site for the Dineh, one of their four sacred mountains.

Possibly it may also be a sacred site for the Jicarilla. They're not too far away, and I honestly don't know enough about the sites they held sacred. Maybe also for the Naishan, or Kiowa Apache as most people know them.

I suppose it's possible that Mimbreno or Chiricahua living on Ft Sill might hold Mt Blanca sacred because it's closer than sites in the old homeland.

Most of what I found on Shash shows him giving talks to kids at libraries, plus a few cultural events. I don't think he's a bad person. The ones he's gathered around him seem mostly a bit out of touch. It's the ones he's associated with, Anderson and Yoissef, that are clear frauds and are trying to use him and his church for their own purposes.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on March 25, 2008, 12:44:58 pm
dunno something is just off with it all. But I'll wait, truth does what truth wants when it wants to. 

Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: tachia on April 23, 2008, 09:14:16 am
*snipped for brevity*

Most of what I found on Shash shows him giving talks to kids at libraries, plus a few cultural events. I don't think he's a bad person. The ones he's gathered around him seem mostly a bit out of touch. It's the ones he's associated with, Anderson and Yoissef, that are clear frauds and are trying to use him and his church for their own purposes.

i was going to stay out of this one thinking that someone would come up with the truth on this guy tomas and his "crew" .. .. since no one has .. well .. .. at the very least i do think that this needs MUCH more research .. a lot of questions have need of being asked .. shrug .. the info on the internet is scarce .. yet "stories" of this shash abound .. ..

first let me say that i have met tomas shash and know even more OF him from people that were involved with him and his group .. .. he lives and "operates" in the same area of colorado that i live in ..

 
this guy is NOT merely being "used" by others .. he is really bad news .. he does the whole mix and match thing, a little of this nation, a little of that one, and toss in some new age .. .. in my opinion, he IS a fraud and an exploiter .. .. what i do know of him is my own impression of him when i met him and the stories from the locals around here .. personal experiences are often considered no more than "hearsay" .. and for that reason i will say no more, unless asked to .. suffice it to say that tomas is far better at using others than at being used by them .. just the fact that he associates with known frauds should be a clue as to his own integrity .. ..

al .. i seriously doubt that this guy is Apache, much less anything else he claims, and that list is a bit long as well ..  .. just as an example: he teaches his followers many Apache words etc .. NONE of which are Apache, but rather mostly Lakota and Dine' .. he teaches that the Apache word for Apache is the word Dine' ..  for those of you who do not know, Dine' is the navajo word for themselves in their own language .. .. .. he has also recently attempted to name himself as Sundance Chief, even though he never even bothered to complete his own commitment much less earn that right .. on this he was called out, by a legitimate Sundance Chief, and tomas dropped it as far as i know ..

there are, of course, many more such "pieces" that should raise red flags .. yet as i have spoken .. i cannot back up any of my knowledge of tomas with published information .. any and all information/knowledge that i have of him (and ten rivers) is from my own and others personal experiences .. if it is acceptable in this forum to state personal  experiences of myself and others, i will be glad to do so .. .. .. .. ..
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on August 02, 2008, 07:20:39 pm
Ok found this.

http://aztlan.us/ 

And a article written on the dance they just had.

http://huerfanojournal.com/extra.php

Sun Dance of the Aztlan
01 - August – 2008
by Clint Boehler

GARDNER- It could have been 1708 or 1808, but from July 13-20 of 2008, the ancient custom of the Native American Sun Dance was held in Huerfano County.  Several miles east of Gardner is a wilderness place called Aztlan.  Aztlan can have many meanings, but one popular definition is a place of new beginnings.  At Aztlan, Indian religious ceremonies are practiced and the old ways are not forgotten.  The Sun Dance is conducted annually here but with one big difference this time.  This ceremony has traditionally excluded non-Indians.  This time a sign along Highway 69 said “Locals welcome, but No Tourists.??? Over 200 people were in attendance.
    As you enter the sacred grounds, you can hear the traditional drum with its ancient beat.  Vehicles are parked a few hundred yards from the ceremonial ring.  Looking at the beauty of the mountains, you feel as if you have been transported back to a very old time.  You enter by a pathway where you are met by a tribal member with a pot of burning embers.  The smoke will purify your spirit before you enter.  You must be humble.  All jewelry, big belt buckles and flashy sunglasses must be concealed.  It is important to show great respect on these grounds.
    The ceremonial ring is about 75 feet in diameter with a twenty-foot pole in the center.  The pole has buffalo hides and symbolic items around the bottom.  Several men, stripped to the waist and wearing red pantaloons dance around the pole.  Soon, one of the men comes closer and the others attach ropes or sinews to his chest with skewers, just above the pectoral muscles.  The dance continues with the central drum picking up a frenzied beat.  Soon the tension on the tether is too great and the bone skewers  pull from the flesh on the man’s chest.  Great celebration is shouted and sung.  This man has showed his great sincerity and spirit.  There are many other meanings to this event as well.  The men with him show scars of a previous Sun Dance, and some of them choose to show their spirit again, this time attaching the lines to their backs, just above the shoulder blades.  All this is done with sincere faith.
    Following this Sun Dance, young women with newborns gather at the pole and priests or shamans come forward and bless the children.  All are in traditional clothing, many wearing garments that are hundreds of years old.
    The basic choreography of the ceremony is based on Lakota style, but Apache, Ute and Diné are the primary tribes represented here. Diné is a term given to those of Apache/Navajo bloodline.  Traditionally, there are at least 25 tribes that have practiced the Sun Dance.
    These ancient rites are conducted for a full week each year and allowing the local public to attend is a huge step in communication.  Being able to witness these great spiritual events is a privilege very few in our urban world get to experience.  In fact, until the early 1900’s the government banned the dance; then non-Indians were excluded if the dance occurred.
    If you want to take a walk to a time transport, watch for notices of the Sun Dance for next year.  It is a religious, educational and spiritual event that should be included in everyone’s life.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: shoshone1 on October 03, 2008, 01:30:47 am
that sure doesnt sound like a Lakota ceremony to me ,I have been to alot of Lakota ceremonys ,but never have seen it like its describe in this thread .... Something wrong here ....
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on January 09, 2009, 04:29:20 am
http://www.originalghostdance.com/


and tomas

http://directory.ic.org/21936/Aztlan_earthwalk
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: frederica on January 09, 2009, 05:10:34 am
Well, that's the Prophecykeepers (Will Scott Anderson) aka "BlueOtter".  Any body that would donate to that group for them to raise $500,000, would need a head examination.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on January 09, 2009, 06:38:43 pm
Oh ots gets better.....

on  the ghost dance page..  go to home then down the right side to the archive area til you find ten river's picture.. and click it..    there is a 'interview radio of otter and etc..


I like the ten rivers is spose to be a elder.. and he's maybe i his fourties..?????

(gods I couldn't type OR spell this morning rofl..  sigh)
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: educatedindian on January 10, 2009, 02:56:21 am
any and all information/knowledge that i have of him (and ten rivers) is from my own and others personal experiences .. if it is acceptable in this forum to state personal  experiences of myself and others, i will be glad to do so .. .. .. .. ..


Of course it's acceptable. Firsthand accounts are very valualbe. And please ask anyone you know who has knowledge of Shash and co to come here and tell us what they know.

Everything that you describe sounds like good reason for caution to me as well. What I'd said before was based on what I'd been able to find so far.

The link originalghostdance...it's hard to know where to begin with his mangling of history. But at least now Anderson is admitting he's basically a Mormon trying to use what he claims are NDN prophecies. This is the first I've seen him claiming to be Powhattan or Shawnee, though he did use to run a fake tribe claiming Pocahontas was Cherokee. First time I've seen him claiming to have a "Viking mother" too. :)

And the conspiracy theories get more and more ridiculous...
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: wolfhawaii on January 10, 2009, 06:04:15 am
Scotty is spouting some crazy sheeeit these days......God himself  named him BlueOtter.....Indians are jews......God wants him to be broke so he will fulfill his role as a prophet, but he wants YOU to send him money so his truck don't get repo'd.....sad thing is, there are at least a million wannabe "cherokees" who will fall for this crap.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on January 13, 2009, 11:51:32 pm
ya know.. somewhere in that gobbidly goop they have up.  It says they were told to get a 500k grant.. made me want to ask them.. and so why are you asking others for funds if  you are spose to go get a grant???   

Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: frederica on January 14, 2009, 12:20:18 am
Would you give that group a grant?
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Spaewife on January 14, 2009, 12:55:23 am
Oh Hell NO.  But figure if they want to say that is what they were told to do, perhaps it should be tossed back in their faces that perhaps they should do what they were told. rofl
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: tachia on February 21, 2009, 10:24:37 pm
spaewife ..
anything new on tomas, atzlan etc? .. perhaps the carnes could shed some much needed light on tomas and this "atzlan group" since they were associated with the "group" for quite some time? .. since you are a friend of theirs, perhaps you could ask them if they would share the information they have on all this with the people in here? .. does ben know who tomas has as a "sundance chief" now that he is not there? .. i know that tomas attempted to declare himself as the "sundance chief" after ben was no longer in that position for tomas .. we were wondering who is doing that for the "group" now ..  .. i think it would be good for the people in here who are questioning all this to hear from someone who had been IN the "atzlan group" for a number of years, firsthand knowledge you know :) ..
 
 i only know of tomas because he lives and operates  in the southern colorado area ..  they had a "group" in the trinidad, co. area about 12 years ago .. i met a  few of those people then, including tomas, nothing about them "set right" with me and i walked away ..  .. since tomas moved his "group" up to the gardner, co. area i have not seen much of him .. i do not go to gardner much, it is a long standing hippie town that has twinkie people that just irritate me, most of them are harmless but they still irritate me, lol .. .. .. .. .. .. every once in a while i run into a young person that has been "taught" by tomas and try to set them straight .. seems to me that they "prey" on young people who are naive and gullible .. this is a tough one because there is not much more to go on but peoples "personal experiences" with that "group" .. last summer they actually placed a sign on the highway "advertising" their "sundance" .. they plastered the surrounding towns with flyers for the “sundance” as well .. geeeesh .. people like this need to be stopped .. we should not let this go .. what can we do? .. i brought this up because last week we ran into yet another young man who had been misled by the "teachings" of tomas .. .. .. .. ..
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: tachia on February 22, 2009, 09:36:10 pm
if spaewife is reluctant to ask the carnes to reply to this with their firsthand knowledge of it all .. .. perhaps some of the carnes "other friends" could speak with them and see if we could get  some information on all this?? ..
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: tachia on March 05, 2009, 12:26:04 am
guess neither the carnes themselves, spaewife, nor any of their other friends in  here are going to touch this subject eh? ..
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: 918ndnOkie on March 10, 2009, 07:32:17 pm
***O~Si~Yo~***

lol he's not even Jewish! But us true Metis Cherokees know what the end will be like. My spiritual Advisor Cheryl "Blue Bear Medicine Woman" Hall told me that the world will begin again in 2012 lol

***Wa~Do***
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: tachia on March 31, 2009, 08:48:08 pm
??
in re-reading this thread along with the carnes/EMC thread .. and knowing that these two subjects go hand in hand since carnes "sundance" group was/is affiliated with many of the people in the atzlan "sundance" group and that all are also affiliated with the tayac "sundance" group .. perhaps a new thread should be started where people can discuss all these issues? .. .. including the affiliation with "treaty house/zoi" .. ?? .. idk .. all of these are intertwined together, connected, and trying to discuss this whole thing in so many different threads is difficult ..
opinions?
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: tachia on May 28, 2009, 08:05:53 pm
southern colorados "hippie, nuage sundance season" is nearing!!! .. these two "sundances" are less than 20 minutes from each other, held at the same time, and held in one of the most well known nuage hippie enclaves in colorado ..

both ben carnes and tomas shash are soon to hold their "sundance's" .. both of these "sundances" are held for non-ndns, mostly nuage hippies .. ok maybe once in a while they actually have a token ndn or two .. .. in bens case the people that attend are mostly white nuage hippies .. i will give tomas a bit of credit in that the people who attend his are mostly Hispanic and at least they are indigenous even though lost .. ..

point is that more and more people are being misled by these "chiefs", last year over 200 people were at tomas's "sundance", he even had a sign out on the highway inviting anyone but tourists to attend .. and both of these "chiefs" send out flyers .. is it appropriate to advertise a sundance??? .. tomas's group plasters the nearby towns with his flyers, ben is a bit more careful but not by much, flyers of his still go up around the towns as well .. ..

people are being misled and harmed .. and NONE of the questions about the validity of either of these "chiefs" and their "sundance's" has been answered .. ..

Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Rattlebone on May 29, 2009, 12:27:02 am
southern colorados "hippie, nuage sundance season" is nearing!!! .. these two "sundances" are less than 20 minutes from each other, held at the same time, and held in one of the most well known nuage hippie enclaves in colorado ..

both ben carnes and tomas shash are soon to hold their "sundance's" .. both of these "sundances" are held for non-ndns, mostly nuage hippies .. ok maybe once in a while they actually have a token ndn or two .. .. in bens case the people that attend are mostly white nuage hippies .. i will give tomas a bit of credit in that the people who attend his are mostly Hispanic and at least they are indigenous even though lost .. ..

point is that more and more people are being misled by these "chiefs", last year over 200 people were at tomas's "sundance", he even had a sign out on the highway inviting anyone but tourists to attend .. and both of these "chiefs" send out flyers .. is it appropriate to advertise a sundance??? .. tomas's group plasters the nearby towns with his flyers, ben is a bit more careful but not by much, flyers of his still go up around the towns as well .. ..

people are being misled and harmed .. and NONE of the questions about the validity of either of these "chiefs" and their "sundance's" has been answered .. ..


Have you ever personally attended any Sundances at the Carnes residence to be making these statements?
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: educatedindian on February 26, 2015, 05:19:04 pm
Got a request about them, but much of the information is sketchy and they seem secretive. They are led by a man named Thomas or Tomas (Spanish pronunciation) and "Mama Cindy." The male leader has a daughter named Saba. They hold their own Sun Dance and claim to be Lakota, but train outsiders to be "shamans."

ETA: Merged threads, retitled to include Shash's name.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: a robinson on February 26, 2015, 09:50:11 pm
Is that not the same group that had Sundance run by Jimmy Tenrivers?  The same person associated with William Scot Anderson Blue Otter. Also had a white man who taught Torah, Maggid ben Yoseif. Supposedly Apaches doing Lakota Ceremonies claiming to be Jews. Or something of that imagination.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: maggidbenyoseif on September 06, 2015, 01:48:27 pm
'siyo,

I would like to clarify a few things.  The Lakota sundance was brought to southern Colorado by Titus Eaglefeather in the late 1990s.  Clusters of untribed Apache (who had intermarried with mountain people instead of going to reservations) began attending the dance and reuniting. Ben Ledeux, a relative of Crazy Horse brought his medicine bundle to start the purification lodge.   Jimmy Tenrivers Atencio is a Mimbreno who is also severely handicapped, a near paraplegic,  from a motorcycle accident followed by a car accident.  Yet he was one of the first dancers to be pierced.  All of his sons have since been sundancers.  So the dance at Iglesia de Aztlan IS based on a Lakota dance introduced by Titus.  Tomas Shash also has connections with Aztec who have influenced the dance as well, so that it is no longer completely recognizable as Lakota.  The lodges also sing Lakota songs, although Don Cryingeagle Tenorio and Jimmy Tenrivers have been introducing Apache lodge songs.

In your posts you refer to me as a "white man" who teaches Torah.  I do teach Torah but I am mixed Cherokee.  My g-grandmother was full blood and a wampum keeper and my ggggg grandfather was the right hand of Chief Ross who cared for his family during the chief's imprisonment with John Howard Payne.

NO ONE at Iglesia de Aztlan has any association with Scott Anderson (who goes by Blueotter).   He had interviewed Jimmy for one of his radio programs and invited Jimmy and I to visit Utah.  We met with the LDS historian after the president/prophet had a stroke and died while we were waiting downstairs in the lobby to visit with him and the Council of 12.  I led the delegation meeting with the LDS leadership because we were protesting that our sundancers were being proselytized by Mormon missionaries and wanted it to stop.  The historian arranged for us to receive $3,000 for the sundance as a donation after I explained that Native Americans were never severed from their covenant with Creator and therefore did not need "missonizing."  (See my research titled, "Native American spiritual sovereignty restored:  End-times 'balm of Gilead' heals land for all relations at www.torah-voice.org/Geronimoreturns.htm.  The $3,000 was not solicited and was used to purchase outhouses among other things for the dance.

There are problems at Iglesia de Aztlan, which I won't go into other than to say that profit is derived from the dance, which in my mind defiles it so I do not attend it.  Tomas and I had a big falling out over some of this.  Ben Carnes has already described it accurately enough.  But I would like to redeem the good name of Jimmy Tenrivers Atencio and my name, Maggid ben Yoseif, from the fraud, Anderson.  We were simply used by him until we learned better.  I had to ask him to leave my house in Walsenburg after his ex-wife kicked him out and he was homeless and I took him in, after he mimicked and insulted a grandmother and mooched pot from medical users.  Anderson moved to Central Band Cherokee in Tennessee and sabotaged my work with Chief Joe Sittingowl White.  I was his ambassador at large and was promoting an "intertribal treaty" based on a more humane and abbreviated version of the Cherokee Removals as a biblical solution to the Israeli-Palestinian quagmire.  He spread vicious rumors about me and my son.  That I was a child molester and my son was a meth addict.  I told Chief Joe -- who wanted me to work with Anderson -- that if I ever saw him again, I would happily go to jail for punching his lights out.  This man is evil through and through.  The entire untribed Apache community is sorry we ever involved ourselves with him.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: educatedindian on September 11, 2015, 11:55:32 pm
Hello,
We always welcome more information that could shed some light. Hopefully you won't post just once and will answer some questions.

I included numbering below to make it clearer what I'm asking.

'siyo,

1. Clusters of untribed Apache (who had intermarried with mountain people instead of going to reservations) began attending the dance and reuniting.

2. In your posts you refer to me as a "white man" who teaches Torah.  I do teach Torah but I am mixed Cherokee. 

3. My g-grandmother was full blood and a wampum keeper and my ggggg grandfather was the right hand of Chief Ross who cared for his family during the chief's imprisonment with John Howard Payne.

4. NO ONE at Iglesia de Aztlan has any association with Scott Anderson (who goes by Blueotter)....But I would like to redeem the good name of Jimmy Tenrivers Atencio and my name, Maggid ben Yoseif, from the fraud, Anderson.  We were simply used by him until we learned better....

5. Anderson moved to Central Band Cherokee in Tennessee and sabotaged my work with Chief Joe Sittingowl White.  I was his ambassador at large and was promoting an "intertribal treaty" based on a more humane and abbreviated version of the Cherokee Removals as a biblical solution to the Israeli-Palestinian quagmire. 

1. That's quite a claim. What are you basing it on?

2. What is on your site is some of the most mangled versions of Native history, US history, and Biblical history, or history period I've ever seen. Do any Jewish organizations claim you, or trained you?

3. We have Cherokee members and others who do genealogy who would be interested in that claim, esp. since you claim a famous ancestor. What was originally your legal name? The names of those alleged ancestors?

4. That would not surprise us, given Anderson's long history of abuse and falsehoods. We appreciate your accounts, and I'm glad you got away from him and ended any association.

5. The "Central Band" is a fairly delusional group, almost entirely whites with imagined or false claims of Cherokee ancestry. We have a thread on them that may interest you. They also make incredibly ludicrous claims that Jews are Cherokee and vice versa, notions without the tiniest bit of proof and in contradiction of all of Cherokee history and culture. You understand that hearing you were their "ambassador" undercuts your credibility.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Epiphany on September 12, 2015, 03:25:30 pm
Maggid ben Yosief's original birth name is Dell Griffin http://www.apfn.net/Messageboard/6-23-03/discussion.cgi.97.html

His father apparently is Dell Griffin Sr. http://www.britam.org/dell.html

His own bio here http://www.torah-voice.org/briefbio.htm He claims a Griffin ancestor was Cherokee - his gr gr gr gr grandfather William Griffin.

I believe this is his father's obituary here  http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20061014/OBITUARIES/610140306

Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Epiphany on September 12, 2015, 03:46:35 pm
He also claims Cherokee on his mother's side, through his grandmother Maude Etta Westmoreland http://www.torah-voice.org/Pedigree.htm
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Epiphany on September 12, 2015, 07:23:39 pm
He also claims Cherokee on his mother's side, through his grandmother Maude Etta Westmoreland http://www.torah-voice.org/Pedigree.htm

Correction: Maude Etta Westmoreland is his paternal grandmother.

His genealogy is documented online http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=21832135 - I'll look over census records tomorrow.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Epiphany on September 13, 2015, 06:13:20 pm
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggidbenyoseif (https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggidbenyoseif)

---

Quote
My dear mother z''l, Sybil bat Sadie, Cherokee beauty.

http://www.torah-voice.org/briefbiomby.htm (http://www.torah-voice.org/briefbiomby.htm)

His mother is indeed Sybil of Sadie, both women are listed white in census.

Quote
Today, Maggid ben Yoseif, mixed Cherokee and a great-great-great-great grandson of William Griffin, a member of the Cherokee National Council at Red Clay, TN., before the 1830s Removal,

His ancestor William Griffin 1806 - 1872 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81928782&ref=acom (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81928782&ref=acom) - William's son James Washington Griffin was in the Confederate Army, listed white in all census, photo of him on this memorial:  http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81901989 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81901989) William Griffin is a relatively common name, so we can't assume this is the same man.

Other researchers on ancestry.com working on these various families, do not have posted any records of Cherokee heritage.

I don't think MbY has yet had a professional do his genealogy.  He needs to have his genealogy done correctly, also he needs to be clear about what communities and nations claim him.

Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Diana on September 14, 2015, 03:07:21 am
I'm a little confused....I read this guys bio and did he convert to Judaism?? Or just studied it in theology classes and took it upon himself to teach the Torah? And I also looked him up on Ancestry.com and found the same family genealogy as you did Piff. From what I can see the Griffin name dead ends at 1801 with Oren Griffin from Brooklyn New York. Hardly Cherokee territory Lol. I also looked up his grandmother Maude Etta Westmoreland and her line goes all the way back to 1740, very impressive, but no Cherokee. I think this Dell Griffin person deserves his own thread. He certainly doesn't pass the smell test


https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggidbenyoseif (https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggidbenyoseif)

---

Quote
My dear mother z''l, Sybil bat Sadie, Cherokee beauty.

http://www.torah-voice.org/briefbiomby.htm (http://www.torah-voice.org/briefbiomby.htm)

His mother is indeed Sybil of Sadie, both women are listed white in census.

Quote
Today, Maggid ben Yoseif, mixed Cherokee and a great-great-great-great grandson of William Griffin, a member of the Cherokee National Council at Red Clay, TN., before the 1830s Removal,

His ancestor William Griffin 1806 - 1872 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81928782&ref=acom (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81928782&ref=acom) - William's son James Washington Griffin was in the Confederate Army, listed white in all census, photo of him on this memorial:  http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81901989 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81901989) William Griffin is a relatively common name, so we can't assume this is the same man.

Other researchers on ancestry.com working on these various families, do not have posted any records of Cherokee heritage.

I don't think MbY has yet had a professional do his genealogy.  He needs to have his genealogy done correctly, also he needs to be clear about what communities and nations claim him.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Clanfather on August 27, 2016, 01:07:54 pm
I am interested In any folks who have personal knowledge or contact with this Atzlan group.
Thank you
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: educatedindian on August 29, 2016, 12:42:56 pm
Merged the question with this topic. There's a search function, and questions should be asked in Research Needed.

CF, I don't see any signs of this group claiming to be Aztlanistas. Just faux Cherokee and faux Jewish. Where did you hear the Aztlan claim?
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Whoiam on December 15, 2016, 03:12:23 am
I have known Tomas Shash since he was a teenager. He is in his 60s. He is Chicano. He was born in El Paso, Texas & raised in East LA. His real name is Tomas Ramirez, although he probably changed it. He went to Garfield High School in East LA & later to Friends World College. Most people of Mexican heritage are certainly native, but his family has never claimed that as far as I know. He was never raised in a warm springs Apache Tribe; not at all. He was raised in East LA. His 5 siblings would agree. His first language is Spanish. He gets the Atzlan from a term going around in the 70s where people, justifiably proud of their Aztec roots used it as a word to express the pride. Tomas is Chicano. Period. He lived at 4102 Zola Avenue, Pico Rivera, California after his Latina mom remarried after the death of his Latino dad. If he has proof of an Apache connection, he should prove it. His paternal grandmother never left Mexico; his paternal grandfather was Spanish-speaking & his maternal grandmother only spoke Spanish. They all came from Mexico or the border. It's a fabrication. He lived at "The Farm" where Steven Gaskin was the head of a commune of hippies & a church. Seems like a replication.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Piff on December 15, 2016, 03:49:47 pm
Whoiam, thank you so much for your information.

Do you know about how long Shash was at The Farm? Do you know if he rose in the ranks? Can you tell us more about how Shash is duplicating The Farm?

Along with helping research frauds, I have a special interest in cultic high demand groups, so your mention of The Farm got my attention especially.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Piff on December 15, 2016, 04:01:41 pm
The address Whoiam listed does show up in public records as owned by a Rameriz family.

Article on Stephen Gaskin / The Farm https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8048-is-stephen-gaskin-a-second-christ-some-still-say-yes-some-disagree.html "If you disagree with Stephen's philosophies, it's like slapping God in the face.".
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Whoiam on December 18, 2016, 09:24:38 pm
He wasn't at The Farm long, maybe 6 months. He didn't rise in the ranks, as far as I know. My mention of " replication" of The Farm simply arises from the fact that he has developed a "community" & is the head of a self-developed " church." That's what Steven Gaskin did. He was definitely a cult leader with so many followers & Gaskin had a "four marriage." Some people seem to crave followers. Tomas isn't a bad guy. He has made himself a life not having to do much. He is simply not a member of a warm springs Apache Tribe. He was born & raised in a Chicano family. Check Garfield High School records in East LA. He would have graduated in 70 or 71. His grandparents were never separated from their parents & placed in boarding schools for native children as he has said. Complete fabrication. Ask him to prove it. He can't. Still, as I said, most Chicanos are natives, albeit largely from Mexican origins.  Something to be very proud of.

Btw, The Farm eventually abandoned Gaskin as its leader.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Whoiam on December 20, 2016, 05:03:43 am
Btw, there was a post that the Zola Street address showed a Ramirez owner. That's probably not related to his family. His mom married young and became Delia Ramirez. After her husband Roberto Ramirez died when the first 4 kids (Roberto Jr, Luz, Tomas & Rebecca) were born & they were living in East LA, she married Guillermo (Willie) Chavez & became Delia Chavez & they moved to Zola Street in Pico Rivera. They had a son, Willie Jr, who became a gang member & is in prison in CA for murder. Delia had another son between marriages. The other 5 kids were never criminals. She raised all those kids as the Spanish-speaking Chicanos they are.
Tomas married a woman whose dad is Filipino & mom white. They had kids & divorced. He married a Palestinian woman, had a kid & divorced.
Title: Re: Jimmy Tenrivers, Tomas Shash
Post by: Piff on December 20, 2016, 01:33:10 pm
Thank you Whoiam.