General > Frauds
"Redman" Wellness & Pamela Nine/Pamela Martinez
educatedindian:
These are my responses to her.
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Hello,
It is unclear what, exactly, you are alleging is defamatory. Some of the comments are critical, but that is certainly not the same.
Could you be more specific about your claims? We frequently receive empty threats of legal action from those unhappy about being criticized. In its more than ten years of existence, not once have any of those threats ever been carried out. Not once has anyone ever shown us to have defamed a person or their character.
Before we could remove any allegedly defamatory material, we would need to know more specifics than simply someone not liking what was said about them. Can you point to anything on the thread that is false?
Can you also provide proof of the claims you make on your own website?:
If you wish for us to post a statement from you giving your side of the story, we are more than happy to do so.
You are also welcome to join and post such a message yourself. We welcome all efforts to provide more information to the public and enable them to make up their own minds about the persons, groups, and institutions we post about.
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Ms Nine or Ms. Martinez,
You might have a better chance of making your case if you did not repeatedly spam my email.
Once again, let me ask you, since you ignored it previously:
>>>What exactly are you alleging is "libelous"?
Kindly point to specfic statements, and explain how they are so. It does not help matters when you ignore the previous request, already sent to you, and instead spam my email.
As I explained in my previous email, under the law criticism is not the same as libel. You have been criticized, but you have yet to state why you feel the criticisms are libelous.
Once again, I repeat my previous offers: We would gladly post any statement from you, unedited in its entirety, where you may refute what has been said.
I see that you have already joined NAFPS. You may post such a statement yourself, as well as discuss with other members why you believe the criticism is wrong.
Also, any lawyer would tell you that under the Fair Use Doctrine, a site may be quoted for purposes of identification and/or critique. That is what has happened.
However, should you wish us to remove the copyrighted material, we will do so. All that will accomplish is that we will describe your site by paraphrasing what is on it.
Nowhere have I said anything about doubting that you are sincere in your beliefs. However it is quite obvious that much of what you present as Cherokee tradition is not.
I would be happy to discuss this with you at the forum. I feel the public would be best served by such a discussion being out in the open.
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This [last]message went to my spam folder, so I did not see it before writing my previous email.
Again, it would be helpful if you did not repeatedly spam this email address.
It would also be helpful, as I have stated before, if you state exactly what you feel is "libelous" and why.
You may also wish to have your facts straight before making false accusations yourself. Your address is not anywhere in the thread and never has been.
I request that further discussion between us be in public at the forum.
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My answers are within the text to be clearer what I'm responding to.
They are marked with>>>
-On Sat, 9/26/09, Pamela Nine [address deleted] wrote:
From: Pamela Nine [address deleted]
Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 9:48 AM
Mr. Carroll,
Thank you for responding to the emails I have sent you. My intention was was not to "spam" your email as you have said, but merely to send you notifications which were clearly stated and contained information I felt were pertinent to this matter.
>>>False. You sent multiple identical messages.
Again, for your records, my name is Pamela Nine not Pamela Martinez. Please address me as such, in the future.
>>>In some places you are listed as Pamela Nine Martinez. Is Martinez your legal and/or married name?
My statement regarding the fact that my address is clearly shown for the world to see, is related to the fact that 1. your forum lists my web site which also lists my address and personal contact information, unlike you and your forum, which works under the guise of 2. usernames instead of revealing your true identity.
>>>1. In that case you are listing your address, not us.
>>>2. We have many survivors of abuse by imposters posing as Native medicine people. Many contributors to the forum are quite open about their identity, including me. There is a whole thread talking about who I am in some detail, which is no doubt where you "discovered" me.
I do not criticize others in order to make myself or my beliefs appear superior. My way, is on the opposite end of that spectrum.
>>>No one ever said you did. But you keep avoiding the questions.
My professional background of more than two decades speaks for itself.
>>>Your background says you are qualified to do cosmetic treatments. There is nothing in your stated background which shows you know anything about Cherokee traditions. Quite the opposite.
I will not debate this issue with you, nor will I defend myself, my work and or my personal practices and beliefs to you or your forum. My time is better spent helping others to be positive, kind and loving.
>>>If you won't even say what is allegedly libelous or why, how could I possibly be expected to guess it? Unlike you, I don't claim to be psychic.
You have violated the Terms and Conditions clearly stated on my web site and have been given notice as such.
>>>That's meaningless. We are not on your website.
Please remove the forum titled, "Redman Wellness" from your site immediately and this matter will be resolved.
>>>There is no "forum" with that title. And how can we be expected to respond when you won't even answer the simplest questions?
------------------------
Oh please, I have seen many others like you before. Our website is filled with threads debunking them
What you are doing is called a cold reading. Basically it's incredibly broad claims that could be applied to anyone, from Walt Disney to Jeffrey Dahmer. As an alleged "psychic" you are very unimpressive and I don't see any sign you have ever done anything to help someone.
If you have any evidence you have ever successfuly helped with a missing child, let's see it.
May I suggest one thing? If you wish to prove your ability to be psychic, it's simple:
Go to James Randi, a leading skeptic, and prove yourself to be psychic under his testing conditions.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
I would gladly repost the results, be they positive or negative.
Since you asked to keep this email in confidence, I will do so. But the others will be posted online.
It's best if everyone knows just how bizarre and unreasonable your demands are. Truly spiritual leaders would not throw about empty threats that only show they don't know the law.
pamelanine:
TO ALL THE READERS OF THIS "SO-CALLED" FORUM:
The Owner of this "Forum" Mr. Al Carroll (also known as, "educatedindian") has made a number of what I feel to be malicious statements regarding myself and my business. I contacted Mr. Carroll (also known as, "educatedindian") regarding the fact that he has VIOLATED THE TERMS AND AGREEMENTS OF MY WEB SITE and as you can see from his earlier post, he obviously misconstrued the message I sent him. I have no intention of defending myself or my business on this forum, however, I did want the readers to see verbatim what I actually sent to Mr. Carroll and I most certainly DID NOT ASK HIM FOR MONEY! Also, for your information, the "Gospel of the Redman" book I have quoted from was actually purchased at the Cherokee Museum in Cherokee, N.C.
I have copied two of the emails I sent to him, as well as his reply below.
The only thing I would like to say to Mr. Carroll now is...."I HOPE YOU ARE PROUD OF YOURSELF!!!!!"
Respectfully submitted by,
Pamela Nine
EMAIL 1:
From: Pamela Nine
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 12:48 PM
To: naf ps
Subject: Re: Ms Nine or Ms Martinez...Please Read This
Mr. Carroll,
Thank you for responding to the emails I have sent you. My intention was was not to "spam" your email as you have said, but merely to send you notifications which were clearly stated and contained information I felt were pertinent to this matter.
Again, for your records, my name is Pamela Nine not Pamela Martinez. Please address me as such, in the future.
My statement regarding the fact that my address is clearly shown for the world to see, is related to the fact that your forum lists my web site which also lists my address and personal contact information, unlike you and your forum, which works under the guise of usernames instead of revealing your true identity.
I do not criticize others in order to make myself or my beliefs appear superior. My way, is on the opposite end of that spectrum. My professional background of more than two decades speaks for itself. I will not debate this issue with you, nor will I defend myself, my work and or my personal practices and beliefs to you or your forum. My time is better spent helping others to be positive, kind and loving.
You have violated the Terms and Conditions clearly stated on my web site and have been given notice as such. Please remove the forum titled, "Redman Wellness" from your site immediately and this matter will be resolved.
With kindest regards,
Pamela Nine, Ph.D.
EMAIL2:
From: Pamela Nine
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 4:16 PM
To: naf ps
Subject: For Mr. Carroll
Mr. Carroll,
I would like to say a few things to you, personally. These statements are not meant to be published, but merely to give you an insight into my way of thinking.
First and foremost, I would never purposely cause anyone any grief, especially in regard to any Native American Traditions, Cherokee or otherwise. It was never my intent to use the term "Redman" out of disrespect. It was quite the opposite. In light of the obvious offense I have caused, I am in the process of revising a similar page which will be on my new site. This is not being done for you. It is done out of respect for everyone who bears that name and who would ever conceive it in offense. The page will also be shown as a reflection of my personal beliefs and practices. Criticize if you must, but they are, and they serve God and others with pure intentions. I assure you.
You have been on my mind today. I'm not like anyone you have ever met. I tell people I'm a little different..."in a good way"....and I am. My purpose in this life is simply to help others discover a path home, however best and out of love and light they can get there. Am I perfect? Heavens, no. Do I have all the answers? Again, no. However, I do know that through my gifts I have helped many and will continue on this path until I leave this world and go on to the next.
The missing children cases I have and will continue to work on is something very precious to me. There have been numerous times I have had to deliver a message from the other side to a mother who believes her child is still living here and cannot be found. I do not take this lightly, nor should anyone. I'm very good at what I do, and I am perhaps the hardest on myself, but rightly so where my type of work/service is concerned.
And while your comments were offensive to me regarding my background and experience. Here's how I see it....for many years I helped others with their "outer" beauty and then I was guided to also help others with their "inner" beauty. I'm very proud of who I am and what I have accomplished on my own as a single mother for many years. Believe me, God has guided me every step of the way.
I am what I am. I could reveal many things to you about yourself and your life. This truly is my gift. Many years ago, I wanted to take it back and exchange it for one that others would find more...I'll say..."conventional" for a lack of finding a better word at this moment, but time has helped me embrace my gifts and be thankful for them, and I am very much so.
I feel you have a tremendous sense of power within and you enjoy it and it drives you. I hope that you choose to use it well. You can, you know. I know you worked very hard writing your book and it meant a great deal to you. And even though it too has received some harsh criticism. Your writing and work from what I've read and can feel is very good. Your heart meant well. I also believe you are a good man, strong in your beliefs, and very devoted to those you trust, which are few.
Why am I writing all this? Beats me! (ha ha) I guess you saw the determined side of me that will always stand up for what I believe in, but I always wanted you to see the side of me that reflects my true nature.
So again, I won't defend myself on your forum. I know in my heart what I do is good and guided by Spirit. Do I want to pursue this with my attorney? I'm really not sure yet. We all are given test to endure. I see this as one too.
I wish you well in all that you do. I would also be more than happy to help you in anyway that I can. All you have to do is ask.
With blessings,
Pamela
MR CARROLL'S REPLY TO EMAIL 2:
From: naf ps
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 3:37 PM
To: Pamela Nine
Subject: Re: For Mr. Carroll
Oh please, I have seen many others like you before. Our website is filled with threads debunking them
What you are doing is called a cold reading. Basically it's incredibly broad claims that could be applied to anyone, from Walt Disney to Jeffrey Dahmer. As an alleged "psychic" you are very unimpressive and I don't see any sign you have ever done anything to help someone.
If you have any evidence you have ever successfuly helped with a missing child, let's see it.
May I suggest one thing? If you wish to prove your ability to be psychic, it's simple:
Go to James Randi, a leading skeptic, and prove yourself to be psychic under his testing conditions.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
I would gladly repost the results, be they positive or negative.
Since you asked to keep this email in confidence, I will do so. But the others will be posted online.
It's best if everyone knows just how bizarre and unreasonable your demands are. Truly spiritual leaders would not throw about empty threats that only show they don't know the law..
educatedindian:
Gospel of the Redman, the book that she admires so much, is online here.
http://www.religionen.at/irgospelredman.htm
Ernest Seton was one of the founders of the Boy Scouts.
Some of it is collections of sayings from the old leaders. At other points it's gibberish about whites reincarnated as NDNs and praising a fraud, "Buffalo Child Long Lance" AKA Sylvester Long, a light skinned Black who passed as NDN for money and fame back in the 20s and 30s.
There's also a series of Indian "commandments" that've been greatly distorted to imitate the Christian commandments and lots of hokey OldChiefSpeak mixed in with genuine sayings and stories. Typical early Boy Scout fakelore.
If this is what Ms Nine/Martinez thinks is a good source...
pamelanine:
MR. CARROLL,
DO YOU REALIZE YOU HAVE JUST SENT NUMEROUS EMAILS TO ME IN JUST THE PAST FEW MINUTES. I FEEL I AM BEING "SPAMMED" BY YOU AND YOUR FORUM AND IT VERY WELL MAY BE IN MY BEST INTEREST TO CONTACT MY EMAIL PROVIDER TO BLOCK YOU FROM EMAILING/SPAMMING ME IN THE FUTURE.
DO NOT CONTACT ME AGAIN BY EMAIL OR OTHERWISE!
educatedindian:
--- Quote from: pamelanine on September 27, 2009, 08:34:15 pm ---TO ALL THE READERS OF THIS "SO-CALLED" FORUM:
The Owner of this "Forum" Mr. Al Carroll (also known as, "educatedindian") has made a number of what I feel to be malicious statements regarding myself and my business. I contacted Mr. Carroll (also known as, "educatedindian") regarding the fact that he has VIOLATED THE TERMS AND AGREEMENTS OF MY WEB SITE and as you can see from his earlier post, he obviously misconstrued the message I sent him. I have no intention of defending myself or my business on this forum, however, I did want the readers to see vertabim what I actually sent to Mr. Carroll and I most certainly DID NOT ASK HIM FOR MONEY! I have copied two of the emails I sent to him, as well as his reply below.
The only thing I would like to say to Mr. Carroll now is...."I HOPE YOU ARE PROUD OF YOURSELF!!!!!"
Respectfully submitted by,
Pamela Nine
--- End quote ---
Thank you for releasing me from any need to keep in confidence the email that you previously asked me to.
As anyone can see, you were attempting to solicit me for your business, where you routinely charge. If I was being "favored" by no direct request for money yet, it's pretty obvious you hoped to get in my good graces by your silly attempt to play psychic.
I think everyone is as unimpressed by your alleged psychic abilities as ever.
BTW, in case you hadn't noticed, we are not on your website.
And once again, you avoid answering the questions I put to you several times before:
1. Are you an enrolled member of one of the recognized Cherokee bands, or member of a Cherokee community?
2. What evidence is there of psychics being part of Cherokee traditions?
3. Auras and chakras are part of traditions from India. Why do you present them as Cherokee?
4. You presents New Age versions of beliefs on totems as parts of Cherokee tradition. You use cheetahs and rhinoceros as spirit guides when there were no such animals in the Cherokee homeland.
5. You include New Age versions of Anishnaabe,Cheyenne, and Lakota traditions like the dream catcher, medicine wheel, and sacred pipes, and presents them as Cherokee.
6. I'd also like to see proof of your claim to have helped find missing children. I don't know of any verifiable cases where any alleged psychic has ever done that.
And yes, we at NAFPS are very proud of the work we do exposing imposters and exploiters.
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