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Odyssey of the 8th Fire

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debbieredbear:
http://www.8thfire.net/

educatedindian:
This is Steve McFadden's account of a walk supposedly done on behalf of William Commanda and other traditional elders. On the plus side, I don't see McFadden claiming to be something he's not, just an observer who wanted to help, which he sincerely believed he was doing and is doing. Commanda is also certainly a respected elder.

But McFadden has fallen for and promoted frauds before, like Benny LeBeau. Commanda's words have been misused by frauds before. The other people involved need to be looked at more.

Tom Dostou has alternately claimed to be Algonquin, Chipewayan, and Ananaki (sp?).

Questions raised about him using legit issues for his own ends before.
http://www.native-net.org/archive/nl/9507/0022.html
"Comments from NativeNet listowner, Gary Trujillo (gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us):
Like Lyn Dearborn, who recently posted an article asking some basic questions about just who these people represent and who endorses them and their walk, I'd be curious to know, as I'm sure would many of you, more of the details of what this walk is all about. The one thing I do know is that Tom Dostou was involved in a situation in April/May of last year when I got a call from him from Quebec, where he was taking part in a protest concerning Hydro Quebec's "SM-3" project on the Sainte-Marguerite River located on the Quebec North shore. Tom claimed to be working with and/or
representing the interests of Chief Gilbert Pilot of the community of Mani-Utenam, some of whose members were involved in a dispute with the Sept-Iles Band Council, who were apparently supporting the project.
I personally spent a great deal of energy trying to understand what was really going on there. Tom was claiming that the RCMP was poised to descend on the community for reasons that never were made entirely clear to me. Some people I spoke with in an attempt to investigate the matter claimed that Tom Dostou was an "outside agitator" and did not really represent anyone besides himself. The politics of that whole situation were too difficult to figure out, but it was clear that there was a lot more going on there than I ever was able to learn from Tom, and it began to feel as if there may have been an attempt being made to manipulate the opinion of people who were being called on to join in the protest on the grounds of a threat from a police force which it was being claimed had actual plans to use physical violence which were about to be carried out.
Since I never did get a satisfactory answer to some basic questions aimed at understanding what the real issues were, and I heard things to suggest that the issue may have had as much to do with local politics as it did with any real imminent threat from a national or provincial police force, and I was unable to get a definitive answer concerning just who Tom Dostou really represented, these questions remain open for me. If anyone can say anything more about Tom and/or about this present enterprise and who has come out in support of it that might give it some real legitimacy (or who has said anything against either one, for that matter), and doesn't mind going on record as saying so, please let us know. If anyone would like to report anything in confidence that can be independently verified, feel free to send information to me. I don't have the time and resources to do an actual investigation, but I would be glad to pass on the information anonymously to someone who could and would. Also, if anyone who is taking part in this event or who becomes involved in one of the ways mentioned in this article cares to tell us something about who all has organized and/or sponsored it, please do so as soon as possible (you can send a reply to this message to post a followup article).
Anyone interested in learning more about the situation to which I have just referred can retrieve articles from the NATIVE-L archives for the indicated time period. In doing a quick scan, I didn't find Tom Dostou's name in any of these articles, but I know that I exchanged numerous personal e-mail messages on the whole subject with others during this time period which document my attempts to learn more in this matter (these messages are in my personal archives). To get a selection of
articles which appeared in the public view, you might try:
// job echo=no
get nn-intro archives native-l
database search dd=rules outlim=4000
//rules dd *
select * in native-l from april 1994 to june 1994 where subject contains innu
print all
/*
(send to "listserv@tamvm1.tamu.edu" - that's the numeral "1" in "tamvm1" and the letter "l" in "native-l"). You'll also be sent a copy of an article ("NN-INTRO ARCHIVES") explaining how to do other retrievals; omit the "get" line if you already have the article or know how to use the facility.
I sincerely hope that this walk is what its organizers claim it to be. Surely the earth needs healing, but we might all want to be somewhat careful and discerning in how we approach the problem and circumspect in choosing our travelling companions along the way.
Gary
P.S. I have looked at the Web site referred to in the article Roxanne has copied, and find it to be yet another of the many commercial sites rapidly springing up all over, selling art and books. It is not clear to what (if any) extent the artists/authors are Native people and where the proceeds of sales go, other than to profit the owners of the businesses involved. Caveat emptor.

More
http://www.native-net.org/archive/nl/9507/0021.html
"The questions Lyn asks below are all good ones, and I think they deserve
some answers. I'll post my own comments in a followup article --Gary ]

Are there any "new age" connections with this group? ... Is it mostly Native American or mostly "anglo"?
My other question is if anyone knows about the elder leading this "trek" ... William Commanda, "holder of the Seven Fires Prophesy 'wampum belt'." What tribe is he?
A 3700-mile "walk" is one heck of a distance to travel with such little publicity, and perhaps related planning ... especially with a group that hasn't been together very long.
My other reason for concern about the Earth Spirit "group" is the fact that they chose the "HIDDEN" option, rather than showing up in listings .... though that could go either way, I guess ... certainly
if I were "starting" up a Native Spirituality "list", I wouldn't want it listed at all, believing that unlisted is safer for screening out the "insincere element".
.... just some thoughts ...
Niin sa,
lyn"

educatedindian:
Origins of the walk, which was mostly pagan people, at least originally, back in 99. Started out on an Eco Feminist board.
http://www.native-net.org/archive/nl/9507/0029.html
"[This thread is beginning to threaten becoming a discussion, meaning that it risks becoming inappropriate for the NATIVE-L list, which is reserved for passing on information and asking questions. I will continue to relay information passed on on this subject, but if any-one wants to talk about the subject, please use the NATCHAT list for that purpose. --Gary (gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us) ]

In response to some of the questions that have been posted regarding the Earth-Spirit list, first, I need to say that I am NOT an organizer of the list, merely a subscriber. I joined because of the general aims of the list, in my interpretation, an opportunity to foster discussion on the spiritual aspects of environmental activism. I joined for personal and "academic" reasons. After being on the list for a week or so, I discovered that most of the active participants are pagans/wiccans. There are a few of us who are part of more "orthodox" religious organizations, and probably several who don't subscribe to any particular belief system.
My reason for wanting to let Native-L subscribers know about the list was to broaden the diversity of the participants. I am getting a bit tired of being flooded with the jargon of the pagans and wiccas on a list that professes to cater to people of diverse spiritual/religious worldviews.
I've attempted, with little success, to broaden the discussion to encourage others to participate. The list is rather inactive at the moment and I will not again expend energy to revive a discussion that only one other person participates in; however, I will remain subscribed for the time being in hopes that there can be fostered a more diverse group. So, in answer to Lyn's very valid questions:

> Are there any "new age" connections with this group?
If pagan/wicca are "new age," the answer is yes, if only on an individual basis. As far as I can tell from what E-S participants say, these groups aren't organized on more than a local basis. They are trying to get a more national network going, but like many anarchic organizations (if that isn't an oxymoron), they've had little success.

> ... Is it mostly Native American or mostly "anglo"?
Since it's a brand new list (began May 1, 1995), I guess that depends on the diversity of the subscribers. At this point, it is probably better characterized as a diverse group that is currently overpopulated by
subscribers to a particular belief system. Apparently (I found this out when I did an archive search for my research), the list was created from a situation on ECOFEM in which those wishing to discuss matters spiritual were "silenced" by those on ECOFEM not wanting to have that kind of discussion on that list. Joy somebody took the initiative to start her own list and Earth-Spirit was born.

> My other question is if anyone knows about the elder > leading this "trek" ... William Commanda, "holder of the > Seven Fires Prophesy 'wampum belt'." What tribe is he?

This is one reason I forwarded the post. I figured if anyone can verify if
this organization is legit, NativeNetters can.

> My other reason for concern about the Earth Spirit "group" is the fact > that they chose the "HIDDEN" option, rather than showing up in > listings .... though that could go either way, I guess ... certainly
> if I were "starting" up a Native Spirituality "list", I wouldn't > want it listed at all, believing that unlisted is safer for> screening out the "insincere element".

Well, since it isn't a "native spirituality" list in an exclusive sense, I think any "hiddenness" in its presentation is merely due to the fact that it is only one month old. They are posting to usenet groups and I have encouraged them to try to attract as broad a diversity of participants as possible. I think the list is in desperate need of some "enlightenment."
If it doesn't start reflecting the vision of its stated mandate soon, I'll be bowing out. As I said, I'm getting a little tired of the jargon.
Thank you to Lyn for asking these questions and giving me an opportunity to explain this matter a little more fully. Even if you don't choose to subscribe, you can certainly browse the archives to get a sense of the conversations to date. If nothing else, you'll see why I'm trying to broaden the discussion to be more inclusive.
Peace and love to all,
Roxanne
[ I received a personal message from Jennifer Norris on this subject this morning which sheds a bit more light on the matter. In that message, Jennifer said that I have her permission to pass on all or part of the message, which I plan to do later today. I hope to be able to announce the availability of a file containing the information from the Sunbow 5 Web site which I mentioned in my article earlier today. --Gary ]"

http://www.native-net.org/archive/nl/9507/0035.html
[ This article consists of a portion of a message originally sent by Jennifer as personal e-mail to me. Since she suggested the idea of passing on the information it contains about the origins and direction
of the "Eco-Spirit" mailing list, which has been the subject of recent articles on NATIVE-L, and gives a bit more detail along the lines of what Roxanne said in her article, I am passing it on. Again, if any-
one wants to discuss this subject, as opposed to simply offering more information about the "Eco-Spirit" list (there's probably not a lot more to be said on that subject, though) or (more importantly, I think)
on the "'Sunbow 5' Walk for the Earth," please do so via the NATCHAT mailing list ("natchat@gnosys.svle.ma.us"). Thanks. --Gary ]

...I am watching the postings on Native-L re EARTH_SPIRIT with interest. I have not actually joined the newsgroup yet ... I am concerned about a potential for "New Age-ism" on that list but at the same time I think it is important to clarify to some of those who may be ignorant that those who started the list do not intend it as a New Age - stealing-Native-culture list. It grew from eco-feminist list (ecofeminism is a philosophy which seeks to connect feminist views with a concern for the earth, seeing a natural connection between them). Many of us on that list were getting into a dilemma. For many, our primary sustaining and inspiring force in working to heal the Earth is our spirituality--however we personally define that.
We would discuss this in the list, and others would be annoyed and feel that we were bringing in spirituality/religon where it wasn't relevant or important. Or worse, we were saying you couldn't be an ecofeminist without having a non-patriarchal religious base and that we were preaching. They
wanted to talk about eco-feminism as a political and cultural philosophy, not about spirit. To others, this split was unnatural and counter to our own understanding of the connections between politics-sexism-racism-healing, etc. So the suggestion came up to start a new list that was explicitly open to discussing spirituality as it impacts our work to heal society's and the Earth's woes. The owner of the list is someone who is a member of the Church of All Worlds (CAW), which is one of the largest and most well-known Pagan churches in the world. It is an international organization. The listowner is a strong voice in that community, a contributer to _GreenEgg_, which is the CAW magazine that comes out quarterly and is pretty much *the* Pagan publication to read."

educatedindian:
Pt 2 of that letter, where that member defends mixing Native ceremonies and European paganism.

"Sometimes I get frustrated with Native people who tell those of European descent to "go look into your own Earth-based traditions". It seems when those of us who do look into them, and become members of Wiccan organiza-tions or the Church of All Worlds or other Pagan groups, there is a judgment upon us. As if we are trying to be New Age or copycats or are not legiti- mate. Paganism is the fastest-growing religion in the U.S. right now. It is the descendant of Earth-based spiritual traditions of Europe, which were largely descimated in the 16th century. We are trying to repair and recapture these traditions. There are many branches of Paganism---people who follow Celtic tradition, or Teutonic, or druidic, or have different interpretations of the above, etc. They are legitimate, beautiful traditions which are very much alive and are a source of integrity and strength to those who practice their rituals. Not surprisingly, the basis of many rituals are honoring the four directions and the four elements and creating a sacred circle in which to pray or make magic. This practice is found in many spritual schemas, largely (I think) because they are basic to the working of the world.
Yes, there are those out there who mix Pagan and Native American practices, without proper training in the latter (or former) and who have little respect for the powers that they are trying to summon. But for most of us Pagans, we see our path as our path, our way of connecting both to the Earth and to our ancestors. It is in this spirit that Earth-Spirit was created. Again, I do not know who belongs to the list and what the tenor of the dialogue is. Certainly, there are many Pagans who could use educating in
the politics of adopting others' spiritual practices. Perhaps there are many Native people who can learn to keep an open heart and suspend judgment for a moment on those who are "white" but who also practice Earth-based spirituality. It would seem that we are natural allies.
Peace,
Jennifer
{feel free to re-post any of this ... if it seems relevant to the Earth- Spirit strain on native-l. I do feel it is important that more people understand what Paganism is, as distinct from people practicing "workshop"
or "new age" spirituality ... The list is one thing, that walk is another.}"

The symbol of the Sunbow 5 group, rainbows around trees.
http://www.8thfire.net/Day_0.html

At one point Dostou IDd as "Tom Dostou, Bear Chief, Midewewin Society, Wabanaki
Nation of Massachusetts,NAC"
http://community-2.webtv.net/twomoro/THELIGHTBRIDGE/page7.html

He also claimed to be the "War Chief of the Algonkian Nation."
http://www.oha.org/pdf/kwo05/0508/8.pdf

And "Abenaki/Quiquichan"
http://www.sacredearthnetwork.org/ewip/2001.cfm

My own thoughts on this group is that it's well intentioned but naive pagans, working with some people who are good and some who are less than honest. Even Dostou doesn't seem to be doing this for money, perhaps for ego, which he's been accused of before. Maybe more like an Arthur Sonier? And the motive for the participants, at least on an unconscious level, strikes me as farily Nuagey. "I get to be a white guy fulfilling an Indian prophecy!"  

The acknowledgements has a long list of people involved, both Helpers and Walkers. Anyone recognize the names?
http://www.8thfire.net/acknowledgements.html
"Johnie (Standing Woman) and Bob Leverett, Delphine Redshirt, Jose Lucereo, Martin Gashweseoma, Betsy Stang, Robert Stang, Karen Fletcher Elizabeth Volpicelli, Bud Tackett, Kim Benedict, Wayquay, Rosemary Richmond, Ota Hora, Elsa Stamatopoulou, Lisa Gibson-McMahon, Deborah Muldow, Michael Zwiker, Kim Hazard, Frank Carpenter, Bob Staffordson, Evan Pritchard, Ms. Scott Morrison, Frank James, Jose Lucero, Ernest Benedict, Elaine Hopson, Ed Begley, Jr. Gary Trujillo, Beth Sampson, Tek and Arlene Nickerson, Jennifer Byington, Mary Ellen Wickum, Tonya Frichner, Bill Van Eron, Tom Benson, Phil Gonsalves, and Larry Garnia, Cynthia Walker, Tomela Luise, Cindy Kent, Joe Parker, Mark Anderson, Odette Wright, Blair Gilbert, Mary Kearns-Lawson, J.C. Lawson, Pat Freeman, Rev. Sam Wynn, Bob Mangem, Lotte Abraham, Sharon Bach, Johnie Leverett, Alvainia Bridges, Phil Kratzer, Shane Carraveo, Mary Lou Awiakta, Rodrigo Fuentes"

Delphine Redshirt writes on education. Trujillo runs NativeNet, and was initially skeptical. Gashweseoma is a Hopi IDing as a "Caretaker." And then there's Ed Begley Jr, actor.

PATRICK LAVALLEY:
O.M.G. People, get a grip. William Commanda is from KitiganZibi (near Maniwaki). He is the real deal. He holds the true Wampum Belts. What other people do in his name is their fault or failing, but this man is the real deal. I would stand in front of him if need be to protect him from ignorant fools.

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