NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: TooManyBooks on March 15, 2006, 07:55:32 pm

Title: David Hobgood AKA David Spellsinger AKA Sifu David
Post by: TooManyBooks on March 15, 2006, 07:55:32 pm
I looked through prior posts in this forum, but didn't see this man's name anywhere.  This is my first post, so I hope I'm doing this right.

Located in Whiting, Indiana, the man's name is David Spellsinger and he claims to be the 'Grandson of Irish-Cherokee medicine woman Maggie Running-Fox and Cherokee Shaman Frank Fishing Bear. I was initated as a Cherokee Shaman at age 7. I have been a professional reader of rare Cherokee spirit stones for 34 years'. 
 
Contact information:
 
Location:  Temple for the Arts of Wisdom
Street:  2026 Davidson Place
City/State/Zip: Whiting, IN 46394
Phone:  219-659-0639

He also claims to be a Druid and a Daoist initiate.  More information can be found here:

http://www.witchvox.com/vn/vn_detail/dt_cl.html?a=usin&id=5679

http://profiles.yahoo.com/dspellsinger


According to the link here: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/7351/pie/

--he has been active in the general area since 1994 ("Pagan Unity Night: Held on the Full Moon of March 24th, 1994. Led by David Spellsinger, with participants from six separate groups who actively showcased there own personal rituals for the whole of the community, was considered inspirational in bringing an environment that would lead to many more public rituals in the years to come.")

And according to this: (http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian/1998/July/0798-08b.htm), he does indeed charge for 'readings':

PSYCHIC FAIR - FREE ADMISSION- Saturday & Sunday 10AM-6PM
Free crystal with reading
Free hourly lectures
Free door prize entry

Featuring:

David Spellsinger - Cherokee Spirit Reading, Runes & Tarot

Readings are $20 for 15 minutes and $35 for a half hour.

--------------------------------------

I have no way of knowing if the people he claims to be his grandparents/teachers are authentic or can be verified, but I thought at least you might want the information.  I have seen the man at numerous local pagan gatherings and while appearances can certainly be deceiving, he doesn't appear to have any legitimate Native American or Cherokee connections (forgive me if that line sounds racist; I can't think of a more tactful way to phrase the fact that he is a tall, skinny, middle-aged white man milking naive local people out of their money with supposed 'Cherokee wisdom').

I should state that I understand there are pagans on this forum; I'm one myself, so I'm not anti-pagan.  But I think pagans in general can do just fine spiritually with the beliefs of their own ancestors rather than stealing the beliefs, faith, and practices of another set of cultures that they have no authentic or legitimate link to.


Finally...as I said, I'm new to this.  If it turns out this man is legitimate and does indeed have the connections he claims to, and they're valid, I apologize in advance.  It simply sounds very fishy to me.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: raven on March 15, 2006, 08:37:13 pm
Hi Too Many,

I crossed paths with David several years back. I was with a young friend that wanted to go to a new age shop near her home in the Chicago suburbs. When we walked into the shop there appeared to be some activities going on. I did not know at the time what a psychic fair was.
David Spellsinger was there with a group of other people doing readings.
When I saw the poster stating he was Cherokee I had to sit for a reading. But when I refused to pay for it, the people running the fair insisted I couldn't have a reading until I paid the 35.00 So the young friend paid for it.
When I sat across the table from him, he pulled out a bag of multi colored stones.  He asked me to take each stone and place them on the table wherever I wanted to. I placed all them together in a pile on the table. He looked at me funny, and then began to pick each one up from the pile and explain to me what each one meant, he asked me frequently if we had ever met, I replied no, I had never layed eyes on him until that moment. But he insisted that we had met before.
I did ask him where he learned his trade, he did tell me through his grandparents. I did ask him if they were witches. Then he wanted to know why I would ask him that. I explained I had never seen what he was doing, I had only seen 2 stones used but I did not tell him why or by who.
He was very nervous while I sat there, and the reading was very short. When I stood up he asked me why I placed the stones all together in a pile. I told him because it was my way of telling him his readings were no more than a pile of sh*t.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: raven on March 15, 2006, 08:55:08 pm
P.S I don't know of any self-respecting Cherokees that would be working the psychic fairs passing off "Cherokee Wisdom"
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: TooManyBooks on March 15, 2006, 09:03:30 pm
I should also mention that at the last local Pagan Pride Day, he gave a long lecture which included the information that supposedly he is an authentic Pipe Carrier.

Yeah, well...maybe PVC plumbing pipe.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: educatedindian on March 16, 2006, 04:46:13 pm
We have a write up on supposed "pipe carriers", also a warning from Dr Richard Allen of the CNO about frauds, that you should look at. They can both be passed along, resposted, quote from, turned into flyers which you could hand out, etc.

You mentioned his appearance. It's possible that he could actually have some Cherokee. Many who don't "look NDN" are, whether they're fair skinned or look more like Jimi Hendrix (whose mother was). But if he does, he either doesn't know or doesn't care about actual Cherokee traditions, or is willing to present a bastardized version of them to make money and boost his standing among local pagans.

For instance, that "became a shaman at seven". One, that's an outsider's term. Two, medicine people or healers are expected to endure quite a lot of emotional hardship, much like doctors are affected by their patients' suffering. I can't imagine any Native healer expecting their seven year old grandson to go through that. Medicine people under 40 or even 50 are not that common.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: TooManyBooks on March 16, 2006, 08:54:38 pm
>>Medicine people under 40 or even 50 are not that common.

According to his profile (I posted the link), he's 48.  And I do know that looks are no real sign as to whether he's actually NDN or not.  More telling, at least in my opinion, is the other stuff he mixes in with his 'Cherokee wisdom'--rune readings, Daoism, Druidry, etc.  In other words, typical Nuage stuff for someone trying to make a buck.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Pulchara on April 07, 2006, 08:47:53 pm
First off, to judge or call a person a Fraud simply because they do not look the way you expect them to is VERY wrong.  Did you consider that he looks like the Celtic side of his family?  His father has celtic blood and so does his grandmother and mother.   I have seen picture of him with his grandparents, guess he should carry that because he doesn't look like them.

Yes, he is 49 and yes it takes a tramatic experience or hardship to become a "Shaman" (and the word is used because it is less arrogant than using Cheorkee word that no one else would know and is close in meaning).  Does being declared legally dead qualify for you?  That happened when he was 7.  That was why his grandmother started his training.  He states that is when he was initated.  Not a full shaman.  Sorry his grandmother intensified his training when his grandfather died and she knew she was going soon.

I have particiaped in pipe cermonies with this man and know other medicine men and pipe "carriers" as you called them.  Sorry every little bit of information cannot be given in a short lecture.

And as far as making a buck.  This is a man who does cermonies for FREE, has dones reading, regressions, and healing work all for free or trade.  And as far as when he does charge, please, so does a doctor, lawyer, nurse, heck your garbage man charges.  He has spent his life learning and teaching.  Sorry he has to make a living.

I sorry this has come across so cruel, but the original post is from someone who has spent what one hour listening to a lecture.  And I have watched this man be attacked by an ex-girlfriend to the point of getting him fired from the place he worked.  That was after a 9 month relationship almost 3 years ago.  And she is still at it.  This feels like another attack.  Especially in the first post you never mentioned meeting him, then you attened one lecture at one PPD, and are going off appearance as your reason he must be a fraud!  Sorry, but it does.  

This man has been working and teaching in the pagan community almost his entire life.  Have any of you been to his rituals, actually sat him down and spoken to him.  Looked through the years of notes, pictures, etc?  Yes, he makes the majority of his living doing readings and classes, but so do ALOT of pagans.  Sorry, but you are wrong to have him listed as a fraud.  
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Le_Weaponnier on April 07, 2006, 09:14:38 pm
Hmmm
I do begin to wonder why so many of these people are Irish-Cherokee? ? Why Irish?

I'd love to see his Cherokee Tarot . ?  Especially since there is no such thing.

Claims to be a Druid? ? Good claim, the Druids were wiped out to the last man by the Romans. so there are no Druids left to contadict him. ? (Insert sarcasm here)

My garbage man does charge, but he doesn't charge ME. The city pays for him because like a Doctors, lawyer, nurse he is a respected (well, maybe not the lawyer) member of the workforce , and trained by an accredited institution.

Quote:"Yes, he makes the majority of his living doing readings and classes, but so do ALOT of pagans. ? Sorry, but you are wrong to have him listed as a fraud. "

So you are saying that he can't be a fraud because so many others are doing it? Flawed argument at best.
Silly at worst.


Quote:" His father has celtic blood and so does his grandmother and mother"

Quote:"That was why his grandmother started his training. ? He states that is when he was initated. ? Not a full shaman. ? Sorry his grandmother intensified his training when his grandfather died and she knew she was going soon. "
 

So his Celtic grandmoter trained him in Cherokee traditions? Or Celtic Traditions?
You didn't specify.
(Sorry, forgot, Druids were wiped out - So all Druid traditions were lost)
What is a Shaman? Is that a Cherokee or an Irish word?

From Wilkipedia:
Quote:"Shamanism and New Age
The New Age movement imported some ideas from shamanism as well as Eastern religions. As in other such imports, the original users of these ideas frequently condemn New Age use as misunderstood and superficial.

At the same time, there is an endeavor in occult and esoteric circles to reinvent shamanism in a modern form, drawing from core shamanism, a set of beliefs and practices synthesized by Michael Harner and often revolving around the use of ritual drumming and dance; various indigenous forms of shamanism, often focusing on the ritual use of entheogens; as well as chaos magic. "

QUOTE:"Sometimes, however, people from Western cultures claim to be shamans, often associated with either the New Age or Neopaganism movements. This is considered offensive by many indigenous practitioners, who view these New Age, Western "shamans" as hucksters out for money or affirmation of self. Many shamanistic cultures feel there is a danger that their voices will be drowned out by self-styled "shamans," citing, for example, the fact that Lynn Andrews has sold more books than all Native American authors put together. Often too, these New Age Shamans (sometimes called Plastic shamans), make up elaborate ceremonies that are often completely fraudulent (such as Sweat lodge ceremonies, or Chuluaqui-Quodoushka). Others may be based on real traditional ceremonies but reproduced in a way that distorts, or commercializes, their meaning."


Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Pulchara on April 07, 2006, 09:39:49 pm
I do begin to wonder why so many of these people are Irish-Cherokee?  Why Irish?

****Can’t tell you, maybe because there are many people of Irish decent here?  Maybe the Irish like the look of “Native American??? women?  How many people do you know with Celtic blood?  I know a ton, including myself (yes, my grandfather’s family is from County Kerry,  my mom was part Irish so if I want it, it’s mine too!).
 
I'd love to see his Cherokee Tarot .   Especially since there is no such thing.

****Never said Cherokee Tarot.  The literature clearly states that it is a hand painted tarot.  The Spirit Stones are Cherokee.  Moreover, before you jump on those, I have seen similar stones used on the reservation in Colorado.
  
Claims to be a Druid?  Good claim, the Druids were wiped out to the last man by the Romans. so there are no Druids left to contadict him.  (Insert sarcasm here)

****They are plenty of people trying to reclaim the Druid traditions.  Go to England, you cannot swing a cat without hitting one.  They learn and follow to the best the knowledge still exist.  He has studied both out of respect to both sets of heritage.  In addition, no one practices any of the true “old religions??? unless of course you are sacrificing animals and people.

Quote:"Yes, he makes the majority of his living doing readings and classes, but so do ALOT of pagans.  Sorry, but you are wrong to have him listed as a fraud. "
 
So you are saying that he can't be a fraud because so many others are doing it? Flawed argument at best.  Silly at worst.

****That argument was made because (I believe it was “raven???) who said he was wrong for doing readings and classes.  No, that does not make it true but nor does that automatically make it wrong/fraud.
 
 
Quote:" His father has celtic blood and so does his grandmother and mother"
 
Quote:"That was why his grandmother started his training.  He states that is when he was initiated.  Not a full shaman.  Sorry his grandmother intensified his training when his grandfather died and she knew she was going soon. "
  
 
So his Celtic grandmoter trained him in Cherokee traditions? Or Celtic Traditions?
You didn't specify.
(Sorry, forgot, Druids were wiped out - So all Druid traditions were lost)
What is a Shaman? Is that a Cherokee or an Irish word?

****Did you read the original posts?  You will see his grandmother was Irish-Cherokee (trying to explain appearance).  Thus, he does have more “Celtic??? DNA than NA so he doesn’t exactly LOOK NA.  That was the entire original argument.  That he LOOKS white.  So do a lot of Cherokee.  I don’t look Russian, but my grandfather was off the boat and until his dying day spoke broken English.

****And as I tried to state, the word “Shaman??? is a word we understand.  I could use Russian to sound like I know more than I do or to sound more authentic.  But that is arrogance and deceit.  Sometimes I will use a term that is not exactly correct but the closest that I can come in English to what I am trying to express.  That is why the word was used.  Unless you speak Cherokee (which I don’t), you would not understand the expression.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: debbieredbear on April 07, 2006, 10:05:10 pm
The Cherokee people DO NOT have pipe carriers. Once again, I will repeat that. Read it s l o w l y: THe Cherokee People DO NOT have pipe carriers. That is a plains tradition. Sort of. A Cherokee person claiming to be a pipe carrier is most likely a fraud.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Pulchara on April 07, 2006, 10:14:54 pm
I cannot tell you where the pipe came from, but he does not claim it is Cherokee nor that he received it in his original training.  Just that he is and it was given to him at a gathering in WI.  

I used "pipe carrier" because that is what wsa used in the orginial post.  I know he does do pipe cermonies and treats it with great reverance.  As to the tradition it came from or who taught it to him, I suggest you ask him.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: debbieredbear on April 07, 2006, 10:31:44 pm
CHerokees DO NOT have pipe carriers. And the sort of pipe that he most likely uses is not the kind that Cherokees used. or use. Does the pipe have a place for one, single stem? Then it is not Cherokee. I have had several traditional Cherokees describe a REAL Cherokee pipe. I have not seen one and will not say what was told to me here. But if it is one stem and one bowl, then it ain't Cherokee. And, where did it come from? Hell, you can purchase pipes off the net, at many nuage stores, or from the gift shop at Pipestone Monument in Minnesota. Traditonal Cherokee people would have no need to use someone else's traditions. Theirs are plenty ok as it is. The Cherokees on this board will tell you the same. Red flags go up in Indian Country when someone claims one tribe but uses to traditions of another.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: JosephSWM on April 07, 2006, 11:54:07 pm
As for us Cherokees and pipes, there are pipes for personal use and community pipes. Thats all I will share about pipes.

As for the Irish, don't forget that there were many American settlers from all over Europe. Unlike Indian people out west, we have had contact for 500 and some years. That includes intermarrying and rape, both of which produce mixed blood children. Also, many missionaries (have not read about Irish ones though) were allowed by some Cherokee leaders to settle on our land and open up shop.

Joseph
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: TrishaRoseJacobs on April 08, 2006, 06:32:58 am
Quote

****Never said Cherokee Tarot. ? The literature clearly states that it is a hand painted tarot. ? The Spirit Stones are Cherokee. ? Moreover, before you jump on those, I have seen similar stones used on the reservation in Colorado.
 ?

Uh, yeah. You saw Cherokee "Spirit Stones" being used on a Cherokee reservation in Colorado? Don't think so, sorry.

Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: piya on April 08, 2006, 07:02:08 am
Quote
I do begin to wonder why so many of these people are Irish-Cherokee? ? Why Irish?

****Can’t tell you, maybe because there are many people of Irish decent here? ? Maybe the Irish like the look of “Native American??? women? ? How many people do you know with Celtic blood? ? I know a ton, including myself (yes, my grandfather’s family is from County Kerry, ? my mom was part Irish so if I want it, it’s mine too!).

"Your mom was part Irish" ? which part, left leg, right foot

 "so if I want it, its mine too.". ? So you can qualify for a CDIB card. Certified Degree of Irish Blood.

Just thought I would add a bit of sillyness, like your post, pipe carrier, tarot readings lol.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: isabellarose66 on April 08, 2006, 12:42:35 pm
This is unreal. ? This is a way for David Spellsingers EX (not even girlfriend) :P toget back at him because she was pissed to learn about his wedding plans. ? I know this. I was there. ? She is the fake here. ? We went to one of her "Classes", supposed to be on runes, she seen me and some others, and then all of a sudden her class turned into some kind of crystal sh_t. ? She is the fraud. She and her "followers" are just a bunch of hateful people. She and her "followers" do this kind of thing to people who "tick them off". ? I dont know how you can allow these kind of things to be written about such a wonderful gentle man. ?  I know this man and he has done many readings for me and they all ? came true WORD FOR WORD. ?  And as far as this Native Amercian /Irish crap .....I am Half Irish and half Italian. ? Some say I look Irish ...others say Italian. ? Gee, I must be lying......maybe I am neither. ?  Maybe I made it up. Maybe the people who wrote this Bull sh_t should try to bash this man face to face. ? But ya see, that will never happen. ? You all have the info on finding him. ? The reason they wont do it, is they are afraid to face him and the lie. ? What goes around, WILL come around. ? Wait and see. ? HHmmm. maybe I will chat with others that have gotten readings from the ex and her "followers" , and see if they are true or not. ? They cant do their own kind of readings, they steal from others. ? Even family tradtions. ? All this proves is that these people are the weakest kind of waste or human flesh there is. ? Also, the pipe thing? ? So this is what you are going to rip on huh? ?  I have seen his cards, they are amazing hand made cards and NO ONE can steal those. ? So maybe that is a reason these people are ticked off......nothing else to steal from him? ? WE all know who this person is, I will be getting readings from some of these "followers" and I will send friends and family to his ex. See she knows me, so I cant go...but she dont know my family and friends. ? I will be back here to let you know what happens. ? Well, got to go and made some calls. ? And of course, to hit some places where these people are reading at. ? All of what these hateful people did is called slander......and guess what, it is against ? the law. ?  So, we will be talking to a lawyer and we WILL press charges. ? So , have a great day!! TTFN ;D
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: 180IQ on April 08, 2006, 01:14:52 pm
Please note, there is no reason for anyone to be emailing me personally about this man or this thread.

Thank you.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: piya on April 08, 2006, 02:47:03 pm
isabellarose66,

Good old rant and rave.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No matter how much you think this guy is a messiah of some sort don't work.

What you have to realise when you come on here, you are dealing with genuine indian people and those that support  them.

Now as far as I see it, this guy uses a tribal name to justify everything he does.

So, if his readings are true, as you say, why doesn't he say he is from the " New Age Rainbow People " or some other crap.

Reason is, people will pay more bucks, if they think they have a connection to us, NATIVE PEOPLE,

Tell you what, send me some $'s,  and I can pick some stones from the street, send you to the nearest Sweat (sauna) at the local pool, and you will still believe.

Wake up to the real world
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on April 08, 2006, 03:37:41 pm
Quote
This is unreal.  This is a way for David Spellsingers EX (not even girlfriend) :P toget back at him because she was pissed to learn about his wedding plans.
As if we care about some hippie's wedding plans: if he didn't sell fake "Cherokee Wisdom", ripping off his punters and insulting Indians, no one here would have heard of him.

Quote
I know this. I was there.  She is the fake here.  We went to one of her "Classes", supposed to be on runes, she seen me and some others, and then all of a sudden her class turned into some kind of crystal sh_t...[snip]
Begone, annoying mall-Wiccan.

Quote
All of what these hateful people did is called slander......and guess what, it is against  the law.   So, we will be talking to a lawyer and we WILL press charges.
i love it when someone making a legal threat doesn't know the difference between slander and libel.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: LisaBowe on April 08, 2006, 04:31:04 pm
This is my 1st post.  I'm amazed at the level of unresearched opinions that are flowing on this site.  If you plan to post on these websites, it is important to have an informed opinion.

For example, in this post.  Where is the "evidence" that this individual is fake?  I haven't seen one shred of "evidence" just conjuncture and innuendo, which can be taken as slanderous, as one of the previous posts indicated.  You cannot simply attack people on the Internet and hide behind screen names and expect not to be accountable.  The legal system doesn't work that way.  To bring out these types of charges then wishy-washy state,  “Finally...as I said, I'm new to this. ? If it turns out this man is legitimate and does indeed have the connections he claims to, and they're valid, I apologize in advance. ? It simply sounds very fishy to me.??? This is a cop-out and does not lend any validity to the prior statements.

In educated circles, this is a complete and total fabrication based on obviously uninformed and unintelligent conjuncture, which should not be allowed to be posted.  Basically, this site is nothing more than a place to post animosity and bare false witness against those that someone may wish to hurt without fear of reprisal.  I find this completely disturbing that anyone can post anything about anyone and get away with it.  What kind of sight is this that doesn't check anything.  Please don't tell me that this is only a forum for discussion, the primary post clearly states FRAUD in no uncertain terms.

I noticed some snide commentary, from one of the administrators no less, about “Cherokee Spirit Stones??? not being in Colorado.  Ha ha joke joke.  Being an administrator you should have correctly read the previous post, which stated, and I quote (and so did you), “The Spirit Stones are Cherokee.  Moreover, before you jump on those, I have seen similar stones used on the reservation in Colorado.???

Note: The intelligent person would have noticed that nowhere does it state “Cherokee??? when referring to “the reservation???.  The statement indicates that there are similar stones in Colorado, not, that they are Cherokee stones.  There are sites in Colorado that deal with crystal and stone totems and invoke the name spirit.  Here are a couple of examples:
http://www.quantumalchemy.com/crystals.htm
The ISIS Metaphysical Center in Denver, CO has Spirit Stones.  You can call them at 706-561-7844.

Now, let's explore how Cherokee and Colorado are related.  Below are a couple of official reservations in Colorado:
Southern Ute Indian Tribe of the Southern Ute Reservation
Ute Mountain Tribe of the Ute Mountain Reservation

According to factually documented history.  The Cherokee Indians in 1849-50 trailed through these areas giving birth to what is called today the, “Cherokee Trail??? in Colorado.  Use the links below for more information..
http://www.geocities.com/peaker59/history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee
Now, why is this important?  Because the Cherokee Indians trekked right through the Ute territory.  Thus, it is not improbable that they would have traded secrets and possibly relations.

Not everything is published or public knowledge.  It is arrogant of us to assume that everything should be found in the yellow pages or on a website.  Most Indian traditions are passed word of mouth only.  Furthermore, there are other documented methods of using stones and/or pebbles for divination purposes such as:
Lithomancy: Which is divination by means of stones, either precious stones or gems, pebbles, or a load-stone.
Pessomancy: Which is divination from pebbles.
Psephomancy: Which is specifically, divination by drawing pebbles from a pile.
There are over 140 various types of documented divination, it is arrogant to assume that there are no undocumented variations, family traditions or such.

Raven stated that he/she don't know of any self-respecting Cherokees that would be working the psychic fairs passing off "Cherokee Wisdom".  What does that statement mean?  What basis in fact do you have to state that at all? Therefore, Ted Silverhand (Pawnee) is more credible because he's not Cherokee and attends Psychic Fairs and... oh yah... the Cherokee Indian Festival this year May 27th to 29th.  Also, I suppose that when Jacqueline Glen and Lori-Ann Locke, a Reiki practitioner and a medium, respectively, partnered up to launch “SOULutions Psychic and Healing Fairs??? in the New Haven area has now made them not self-respecting in your eyes since, they are both of Cherokee ancestry.  In other words, what type of racist drivel are you driving at?

EducatedIndian made a notation about supposed pipe carriers.  But failed to illustrate that they do exist.  Even the american government has information about pipe carries.  For example, a Native American man known as "Shields." has his picture on the U.S. Geological Survey website.  He served as the pipe carrier, healer, or medicine man for the Crow Creek Reservation.  There are also links to other Cherokee's such as Mahir Abdal-Razzaaq El who is a Cherokee Blackfoot American Indian who is Muslim. He is known as Eagle Sun Walker and he serves as a Pipe Carrier Warrior for the Northeastern Band of Cherokee Indians in New York City.
 
Now onto the issue of Celtic and Native American lineage.
The link below is to the Avalon College in Minnesota.  While they are not accredited (which pagan school will ever be accredited) they teach Druidry and in particular, this course below:
Crystal Divination taught by:
Tsis’detsi Tsigoti. Born of Native American and Celtic blood, Tsis’detsi Tsigoti has studied esoteric arts with both Cherokee and Druid medicine people and elders.? ?  Her life experience has given her extensive knowledge of the healing arts including aroma crystal massage, spiritual nutrition, meditation as medicine, crystal divination, and earth astrology.?  A natural stone talker, Tsis’detsi Tsigoti has nearly two decades experience with psychic clubs and mind body spirit festivals working as a medium, spiritual advisory, and crystal counselor. Tsis’detsi Tsigoti currently lives in the United States, where she works as an intuitive healer and astrologer, and teaches crystal divination and meditation.

I suppose she is fake also since apparently, according to some people, Druids are dead and exterminated by those pesky Romans.  Click on the link below for more on this college and class.
http://www.avaloncollege.org/

Finally, you should state an informed opinion, not uninformed drivel and racsist garbage.  If anyone has an informed opinion you are welcome to reply.  Thank you.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: LisaBowe on April 08, 2006, 05:03:15 pm
Quote
Quote

****Never said Cherokee Tarot. ? The literature clearly states that it is a hand painted tarot. ? The Spirit Stones are Cherokee. ? Moreover, before you jump on those, I have seen similar stones used on the reservation in Colorado.
 ?

Uh, yeah. You saw Cherokee "Spirit Stones" being used on a Cherokee reservation in Colorado? Don't think so, sorry.


****Never said "Cherokee Spirit Stones". ? I said similar stones used for divination. ? Not exactly the same but obviously using stones in divination is not without p residence. ?  ?

(Editor's note: It  was Puchara who said "Cherokee spirit stone". Raven also witnessed DSS using these stones, labeled as Cherokee, in one of his phony readings where she challenged him.)

quote author=piya link=1142452532/0#14 date=1144479728]
Quote
I do begin to wonder why so many of these people are Irish-Cherokee? ? Why Irish?

****Can’t tell you, maybe because there are many people of Irish decent here? ? Maybe the Irish like the look of “Native American??? women? ? How many people do you know with Celtic blood? ? I know a ton, including myself (yes, my grandfather’s family is from County Kerry, ? my mom was part Irish so if I want it, it’s mine too!).

"Your mom was part Irish" ? which part, left leg, right foot

 "so if I want it, its mine too.". ? So you can qualify for a CDIB card. Certified Degree of Irish Blood.

/quote]

****If you looked at the original post, which no one here seem to care about, the sole reason for questioning this man originally was his appearance. ? Does no one care that this was the original accusation? ?

(Editor's note: Actually that was only one of the questions originally brought up, which the members of NAFPS dismissed as not decisive proof either way.  It was DSS's claims which are obviously false which most NAFPS members focused on. Apparently Miss Bowe needs to work on her reading skills.)
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: educatedindian on April 08, 2006, 05:33:49 pm
Puchara,

"yes it takes a tramatic experience or hardship to become a "Shaman"

In Cherokee tradition? Hardly. And at 7 years old? Nonsense.

"Does being declared legally dead qualify for you?"

Nope, sorry, it does not. Only in Nuage fantasies, or perhaps in this case, in the fantasies of pagans who are falling for Nuage ideas.

"I have particiaped in pipe cermonies with this man and know other medicine men and pipe "carriers" as you called them."

Then you've been taken in by frauds. NDNs don't have "pipe carriers." That's a Nuage term used by frauds.
 
"And as far as making a buck....Sorry he has to make a living."

Then let him get a real job. Making a buck off of a bastardized obviously false version of Cherokee beliefs is incredibly offensive and unspiritual.
 
"I have watched this man be attacked by an ex-girlfriend to the point of getting him fired from the place he worked.  That was after a 9 month relationship almost 3 years ago.  And she is still at it."

That woman is not here as far as I know, so it's irrelevant.

"This feels like another attack."

Learn the difference between attack and criticism. Attacking is what you are doing, getting angry indiscriminately, without knowing what you are talking about.

But we know what we are talking about, so kindly quit lecturing us with your words which essentially say, "You dumb NDNs! Let us explain what your beliefs TRULY are!"
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: educatedindian on April 08, 2006, 05:46:23 pm
Isabella,
It took about three reads of your post to understand what the heck you were talking about. And much of it still makes no sense. Try using full sentences and punctuation correctly. Better yet, try simply being coherent.

Once again, it seems that "Spellsinger" (someone find out his actual name so we can quit using his twinkie fraud name) and his followers are in the middle of some kind of witchwar that they falsely assume we have a part in.

Let me make it clear, yet again: As far as I know his girlfriend is not here. And the previous follower of DSS said that the original questioner was not her.
 
"All of what these hateful people did is called slander......and guess what, it is against  the law.   So, we will be talking to a lawyer and we WILL press charges."

Like Barnaby pointed out, you might want to get a lawyer who knows the law better than any of you. Nothing on here is remotely close to either libel or slander.

We get empty threats of lawsuits constantly. They've all turned out to be feeble attempts to intimidate or silence, and they've never worked.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Brighidsjustice on April 08, 2006, 06:12:29 pm
Quote
Please note, there is no reason for anyone to be emailing me personally about this man or this thread.

Thank you.
Hmmm...So you're positive his ex-girlfriend was the original poster. ? Or one of her "minions"? No offense dear, but the dear boy has other enemies. ? You might want to look elsewhere. ? And her talk was supposed to be on runes, but wound up being on crystals? ? Well...she must be a very talented psychic to have known that you and her ex's current "lady" would be in attendance. ? Or how else would she have known to have brought all of those crystals for everyone? ? Or could
it be that there was a mix-up on what the topic was supposed to have been? ? I hear those kinds of things happen...

Now I'm not saying David isn't talented. ? There has been no proof given that David isn't everything he says he is. ? But your attacks actually hurt your cause. ? Blindly lashing out in anger makes your defense  weak and ineffective. ? The best defense are the facts. ? I loved Lisa Bowe's post. ? That rocked. ? But Isabellarose? ? The origianal post naming David as a fraud seemed very knowledgeable, but very unemotional. ? Like I said before, I'm not saying David isn't talented, but he does have other people who don't really care for him out there other than ex-girlfriends. ? He knows who I'm talking about. ? It's just a thought. ?

But people with talent always have enemies. ? It's how you deal with it that tells what kind of character you have.   So, tell me...why were were you at David's ex's class, anyway?  hmmmm?
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: educatedindian on April 08, 2006, 06:20:49 pm
Miss Bowe,

"I'm amazed at the level of unresearched opinions that are flowing on this site. If you plan to post on these websites, it is important to have an informed opinion."

Are you talking about yourself? Because this forum is largely made up of Native people, and includes Native traditional storytellers, scholars, and members of band government.

We know our history and our traditions, and it is ignorant, offensive, arrogant, downright racist, and just plain rude of you and the other followers of so called "Spellsinger" to, esentially, barge in here and shout:
"Hey you dumb Indians, we Super Wise White Pagans will tell the Real Truth about what your traditions actually are!"

"I haven't seen one shred of "evidence"

Then you need help with your reading skills. Cherokees and other Natives have repeatedly told you that none of what DSS falsely claims as Cherokee traditions actually are.

"You cannot simply attack people on the Internet and hide behind screen names and expect not to be accountable."

Once again, are you talking about yourself and the other followers of DSS? Kindly look up "projection" in a book on psychology.

"Basically, this site is nothing more than a place to post animosity and bare false witness"

Once again, you need help with your reading skills.

Try reading any of the more than HALF DOZEN informational posts such as Our Purpose, Who We Are, All New People Must Read, etc, before you make a fool of yourself, yet again.

"I noticed some snide commentary, from one of the administrators no less, about “Cherokee Spirit Stones??? not being in Colorado....The intelligent person would have noticed that nowhere does it state “Cherokee??? when referring to “the reservation???.

Actually an intelligent person would have known better than to falsely imply very strongly, as Puchara did, that there was a Cherokee reservation in Colorado, or that Cherokee elders would have used their stones on a Colorado reservation.
 
"According to factually documented history. The Cherokee Indians in 1849-50 trailed through these areas giving birth to what is called today the, “Cherokee Trail??? in Colorado."

Irrelevant. That has nothing to do with whether any Cherokee elders are on Ute rezzes using stones.

"the Cherokee Indians trekked right through the Ute territory. Thus, it is not improbable that they would have traded secrets and possibly relations."

"Traded secrets"? You've been reading too many Nuage books, ones with patently racist premises.
 
"Most Indian traditions are passed word of mouth only."

Gee, thank you, Oh Great White Father/Mother/etc. None of us Dumb Indians have ever heard a thing about oral tradition. I'm sure we scratched our heads when we heard you say the phrase.
(Sarcasm dripping, gotta point it out for the denser people such as yourself.)

How utterly condescending and racist you are to lecture Native people about their own traditions.

"Ted Silverhand (Pawnee) is more credible because he's not Cherokee and attends Psychic Fairs"

Silverhand is Tuscarora. And he's widely regarded as a Nuage fraud.

"Also, I suppose that when Jacqueline Glen and Lori-Ann Locke, a Reiki practitioner and a medium, respectively, partnered up to launch “SOULutions Psychic and Healing Fairs??? in the New Haven area has now made them not self-respecting in your eyes since, they are both of Cherokee ancestry."

Absolutely they are frauds. Having distant (and in most cases, inventing, imagining, or falsely claiming) Cherokee ancestry does make them any less of a fraud.

"In other words, what type of racist drivel are you driving at?"

Actually you yourself are making a racist argument, ironically against whites. You're claiming that having any Indian ancestry makes it impossible for someone to be a fraud.
You've been racist in your posts before a number of times, so it's no surprise.

"There are also links to other Cherokee's such as Mahir Abdal-Razzaaq El who is a Cherokee Blackfoot American Indian who is Muslim. He is known as Eagle Sun Walker and he serves as a Pipe Carrier Warrior for the Northeastern Band of Cherokee Indians in New York City."

Oh boy, have you ever fallen for one fraud after another.

No such thing as "Cherokee Blackfoot".
Mahir is an extremely obvious fraud, and so is his "band" of wannabees. One of our members who is both Native and Muslim wrote up this warning on him. Not only is what he's claiming false and offensive to Natives, it's false and offensive to Muslims as well.
http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/articles/art32.htm
 
"Tsis’detsi Tsigoti. Born of Native American and Celtic blood, Tsis’detsi Tsigoti has studied esoteric arts with both Cherokee and Druid medicine people and elders."

Cherokees don't call their traditions "esoteric arts". That's from Europe.

"A natural stone talker, Tsis’detsi Tsigoti has nearly two decades experience with psychic clubs and mind body spirit festivals working as a medium, spiritual advisory, and crystal counselor. Tsis’detsi Tsigoti currently lives in the United States, where she works as an intuitive healer and astrologer, and teaches crystal divination and meditation.
I suppose she is fake also"

As a three dollar bill, which, no doubt, she would jump at the chance to buy and sell if she could, or con people into accepting as real along with nonsense like astrology.
Deal with it.
Accept it.
The Native people here know our own traditions.
All you know is the lies you've been fed by people out for your money.
For you and all the other followers of DSS, please take the time to read the warnings we've researched put out before you get taken advatange of, yet again.

So He Claims to Be a "Pipe Carrier"
http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/articles/art23.htm

Ten Signs They Are Nuage Frauds and NOT Real Native Medicine People
http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/articles/art23.htm

Do You Think You Are "Indian At Heart"?
http://www.newagefraud.org
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: child of sekh on April 08, 2006, 06:22:14 pm
Ok, I will openly admit as to why I am here.  I am here to forward a reply from the actual man being accused.  See, nothing that has ever been posted about David Spellsinger on the Internet is actually from David Spellsinger.  The man himself does not have Internet access.  Yes, he has asked others to put his name on witchvox so those who are looking for him can more easily find him.  That required a free email address, also set up by another person, and check by myself, where I simply instruct people to contact him directly via phone.  Without the network of friends he has, this on line degradation of his character would continue unchecked.  I hope that this list does hold itself to some sort of standard of proof.  That they care at all about facts and research and not just bias opinion stated behind a hidden veil of a on line name.   After reading the original posts, this is the response of David:

I am what I am, nothing more, nothing less.  I am not a “Cherokee???, I am an Irish-Cherokee.  A man of mixed blood, of that I am guilty.  Do I mix traditions . . . yes.  My blood is mixed, would you have me drain the Irish Blood from veins to leave only the pure Cherokee Blood?  I have never claim to be a representative of a specific tribe or clan.  I have simply claimed my linage and the blood of my grandparents in relation to the traditions they taught me.

I am 49 years of age and I have walked the very painful path of healer and seer since that is what Spirit would have of me.  As far as I know, Spirit does not care if I am called a shaman or just a man as long as I do what I can to walk my path.

I have suffered numerous diseases to the brink of death.  I have wandered the country homeless and penniless for seasons at a time. Now you can add this gossip and slander to the list of my many initiations.  But to tell the truth I donor really mind being examined.  There are far too many frauds out there and if we don't investigate them, no one will be safe from them.  However, if you are going to investigate, then INVESTIGATE.  Do not just snip and clip unrelated posts and advertisements then present them out of context.

No one even seems to know my given legal name, which proves no one has bothered to actually question me or truly research my background.

My Grandmother (on my mother's side) was Maggie Running Fox Shoptaugh.  She felt that Spirit had chosen to initiate me when I was pronounced legally dead of scarlet fever at age 7.  It was at that age that she chose to initiate me into “her??? tradition.  I merely started my training at 7.  I didn't become anything, much less a “Shaman???.

Over the years people have insisted on calling me a Shaman.  (My Grandfather called me Adawehiyu which my Grandmother said it meant magician.)  After researching the meaning of the word “Shaman??? I found that is described what my Grandmother did for her 99 years and what I myself do today.  So I eventually gave in and accepted the term.

Maggie Running Fox Shoptaugh was know in the Ozark Mountains as a seer and a healer.  Her mother was of the Ani-Waya clan of the Cherokee out of North Carolina.  Her father was an ex- Priest of the Culdee Sect in Ireland (inserted reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culdee).   Grandmother told me that it was her mother and father that first had the idea to combine not only their Irish and Cherokee blood through her, but the two traditions as well.  So my Grandmother called herself “Irish-Cherokee??? and taught me the sacred ways of both people side by side.

I know some Black-Cherokee, Scott-Cherokee, and not to mention a few Irish-Cherokee people that are probably very insulted by the half-breed bashing that I feel has been going on here.  Not to mention the witch bashing and psychic reader bashing.

It is nothing new though.  When my Great-Grandparents tried to establish an integrated Irish and Cherokee Church back around 1921, the local KKK burned it to the ground.

My Grandfather also on my mother's side, Frank Fishing Bear Shoptaugh, was a full blood Cherokee Uku of the Ani-Wodi Clan raised on a “rez??? in Muskogee, Oklahoma.  He not only loved my Grandmother but he greatly respected her integrated traditions.  He especially praised her as a seer and told me himself that it was a rare and dying tradition of reading the stones that she carried on.

The 49 stones that she passed on to me were simple tumbled gemstones like the kind used in jewelery making.  She explained that any kind of stone at all could be used as long as you named them properly.  One lady who lived on a “rez??? in Oklahoma used river rocks, my Grandmother just preferred more colorful stones.  They aren't actually called “Cherokee Spirit Stones???, they are properly know as “Tsalagi Ulunsu Nunahe???.  As with the Shaman title, people kept calling them spirit stones.  Since I am not anal retentive about what you call something it just sortive stuck.  I would rather refer to the stones in terms people can understand than to be so arrogant as to correct them constantly requiring them to use a term they can not even pronounce.

I never claimed to be a pipe bearer of the Cherokee people.  I was give a sacred pipe while I was in O'Claire, WI visiting with an Ojibwa friend, Earl Larousse.  The pipe I was given is the sacred red pipe stone with a single stem.  I studied pipe ceremony with Gun Hollingsworth, who is the pipe bearer of the Mohegan tribe.  Also, I have shared my pipe with elders such as Jim Gillahan, Buster Yellow-Kidneys, and Henry Smoke.  I am humbled by these men and honored to have sat in circle with them but I do not claim to be anything near what whey are.  But, neither have they denounced me or called me a fraud.

I do not milk people out of their money.  I have done far more readings and healings for free than I have ever charged for and I NEVER charge for ceremony or prayers.  When I work at stores and events such as the 1998 event listed in the Monthly Aspectarian I am subject to the policies and rules of the facilitators.  And my rates have always been bellow or comparable to most readers and healers.  I have also willingly accepted trade in forms other than money.  But let's face it people, money is the new barter.  No medicine man ever turned down a chicken in a stew pot or a little manual labor such as a patched roof in trade for his services.  In today's world money is easier and I have never been anything but poor.  I cannot afford health insurance, I've often gone hungry, I've worn the same pair of shoes for  three years now, and my average monthly income is less than $500.  I am hardly a swindler or a profiteer.


No one has ever said what I do is fraudulent or a pile of sh**t to my face.  Only in a cowardly way behind my back.  If anyone has any accusations to make, make them in an honorable way . . . face to face.  I promise to be fair, reasonable, and extremely peaceful, that has always been my way.  I am sure a forum can be arranged.  As you know, I am not on line so ripping apart this post here only further hides you from me.  My phone number was posted, if you have a response please contact me.

Sincerely,
David
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: TrishaRoseJacobs on April 08, 2006, 06:36:41 pm
Quote
This is
I noticed some snide commentary, from one of the administrators no less, about “Cherokee Spirit Stones??? not being in Colorado. ? Ha ha joke joke. ? Being an administrator you should have correctly read the previous post, which stated, and I quote (and so did you), “The Spirit Stones are Cherokee. ? Moreover, before you jump on those, I have seen similar stones used on the reservation in Colorado.???

Note: The intelligent person would have noticed that nowhere does it state “Cherokee??? when referring to “the reservation???. ? The statement indicates that there are similar stones in Colorado, not, that they are Cherokee stones. ? There are sites in Colorado that deal with crystal and stone totems and invoke the name spirit. ? Here are a couple of examples:
http://www.quantumalchemy.com/crystals.htm
The ISIS Metaphysical Center in Denver, CO has Spirit Stones. ? You can call them at 706-561-7844.

Now, let's explore how Cherokee and Colorado are related. ? Below are a couple of official reservations in Colorado:
Southern Ute Indian Tribe of the Southern Ute Reservation
Ute Mountain Tribe of the Ute Mountain Reservation

According to factually documented history. ? The Cherokee Indians in 1849-50 trailed through these areas giving birth to what is called today the, “Cherokee Trail??? in Colorado. ? Use the links below for more information..
http://www.geocities.com/peaker59/history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee
Now, why is this important? ? Because the Cherokee Indians trekked right through the Ute territory. ? Thus, it is not improbable that they would have traded secrets and possibly relations.

..............

Finally, you should state an informed opinion, not uninformed drivel and racsist garbage. ? If anyone has an informed opinion you are welcome to reply. ? Thank you.

Well, here is my informed opinion which I'm sorry wasn't clear enough for you or the other "lady" the first time around:

It doesn't matter in the least what she *thinks* she saw on a reservation in Colorado (note: a careful reading of what I wrote would have clued into the fact that I wasn't disputing that there *are* reservations) - that she thinks she saw something someplace else doesn't mean that it has anything to do with Cherokee people. If it wasn't something she saw Cherokee people doing in a Cherokee community (and not one that some *may* have passed through at some point in the distant past) - then it's not support for her argument.

While you're at it, show me some factually documented history that the Cherokee who passed through there were still culturaly Cherokee in the sense that they would have used adawahi or gone to water - and not Christians who had accepted and adapted to most of the things that were introduced by Europeans.

 So next time you post - please, don't bother to do so either in defense of drivel or with your own brand of drivel in return.

 ;)
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: educatedindian on April 08, 2006, 07:04:07 pm
"Do I mix traditions . . . yes. ? My blood is mixed, would you have me drain the Irish Blood from veins to leave only the pure Cherokee Blood?"

Nonsense. I'm mixedblood, and so are many others here. We know better than to mix traditions which our elders say should not be, and esp not to falsely claim things as Native which are not.

"I have never claim to be a representative of a specific tribe or clan."

And yet he uses his claimed Cherokee ancestry as a drawing point, including a ludicrous claim of "initiation" at age 7.

 "I have suffered numerous diseases to the brink of death. ? I have wandered the country homeless and penniless for seasons at a time."

Anyone else hear violins? Usually when they try to run a tearjerking story past you, it's because they want you to shut off your brain.

"Now you can add this gossip and slander to the list of my many initiations."

Poor you, all you have is cash and devoted followers who will do the attacking for you to comfort you.
 
"I know some Black-Cherokee, Scott-Cherokee, and not to mention a few Irish-Cherokee people that are probably very insulted by the half-breed bashing that I feel has been going on here."

Wait a minute, I thought you had no net access. Either you're lying, or your followers are lying about what they saw.

"Not to mention the witch bashing"

Yep, more lying.

"and psychic reader bashing."

Change that to "con artist bashing." ?
 
"I never claimed to be a pipe bearer of the Cherokee people."

Your followers claim differently.

"I studied pipe ceremony with Gun Hollingsworth, who is the pipe bearer of the Mohegan tribe."

A Cherokee Druid being taught by a Mohegan? Sure....

 "Also, I have shared my pipe with elders such as Jim Gillahan, Buster Yellow-Kidneys, and Henry Smoke. ? I am humbled by these men and honored to have sat in circle with them but I do not claim to be anything near what whey are. ? But, neither have they denounced me or called me a fraud."

Do they know you have "Druid" followers who try to shout down any critics and spout racism? Do they know you mix and match traditions, or that you use their names to appear more legit?
 
"When I work at stores and events such as the 1998 event listed in the Monthly Aspectarian I am subject to the policies and rules of the facilitators. ? And my rates have always been bellow or comparable to most readers and healers."

In other words, your defense is you make a buck, but not a lot.

 "If anyone has any accusations to make, make them in an honorable way . . . face to face."

You'rew welcome to come here. Let's clear this up.

"I am sure a forum can be arranged."

Once again, come on here.
 ?
"I am not on line so ripping apart this post here only further hides you from me."

More of the "I'm too spirchul for this" defense.

"My phone number was posted"

I don't think it was, we tend to try and avoid people posting numbers.

Ironic thing is, without his blind followers coming in here we would not have devoted more time to this and found out the bizarre information in the next post.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: educatedindian on April 08, 2006, 07:41:24 pm
Almost forgot this: Seems his legal name is David Hobgood (unless there is someone else out there using the name David Spellsinger. That, I doubt, since his yahoo profile says he is a martial arts master AND psychic reader and both lived in Whiting IN).  
 
Here he is folks, the Kung Fu Fighting Cherokee Druid Psychic Healer!
 
http://shaolinartsofwisdom.com/
"After coming to America, Master Li joined forces with Sifu David (Spellsinger) Hobgood, and in 1978 the two men opened a new school based on the original School - Temple of the Ultimate Dragon.  Master  
Hobgood carries on as the successor to that tradition today as our Chief Instructor.  
In our School we have a motto: "Three Schools, One Fist".  The saying refers to the fact that we  
train in all three categories of Kung Fu of Chinese boxing: Temple Boxing, External boxing and  
Internal Boxing.  
Master David Spellsinger Hobgood is a living example of what he teaches.  He is skillful,  
knowledgeable and with over 36 years of experience"
 
So how would that 36 years of martial arts training fit with the claim of wandering the country as a healer since age 7?
 
Seems he likes to make unlikely claims.
http://shaolinartsofwisdom.com/About_us.html
"Master Hobgood’s first Kwoon (martial arts school) “Tai Lung Gung Fu Institute???, was established in Evansville  Indiana in 1973.  The original goal of our American Kung Fu school was to offer reality based self-defense. Inspired by Bruce Lee's J.K.D. (Jeet Kuen Do) concept, Sifu Hobgood tested every technique and training method through real life combat situations. He accomplished this through his sideline as a Personal Bodyguard and as Chief of Security at one of Indiana's largest nightclubs. He also engaged in countless hours of no holds barred and or full contact fighting. Add to this over thirteen experiences in actual street self-defense situations (attempted muggings etc.) and you can understand why Sifu Hobgood is so confident that he knows what really works."
 
Could we have another Harley Reagan in the making? His claims are all over the place. He's claiming to be suffering from illness, homeless, training in martial arts, working as a bodyguard, surviving 13 muggings, and giving pyschic readings all at the same time.
So his claim of poverty strikes me as nonsense too. Apparently he has enough money to run a martial arts school.

And I'm not sure what to make of it, but there's at least half a dozen messages from one or more people on martial arts boards looking for Hobgood.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Pulchara on April 08, 2006, 07:51:26 pm
Brighidsjustice
So, lets see, you were there huh?  Geeze, learn to use your actual name......Lisa Helmuth is mine?  And your is????  I never said anything about who I was with........or that she passed out crystals, see you were there but you are so afraid to face me or David with all of this.  Everyone here can rip us to shreds......I dont really care.  I have a great life, somthing you apparently dont.  YOur so smart....?? Yes, everyone does have enemies, but I am willing to face mine face to face.  But the funny part about that, is that I dont know them lol....they have to hide behind words on a computer.  You know where I am ,  lets chat..........lol.  
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: educatedindian on April 08, 2006, 10:27:20 pm
Interesting. Isabella and Pulchara have the same identical writing styles (or lack of). Pulchara also mimics DSS's use of phrases, though I suppose that could just be hero worship talking.

To Pulchara/Isabella and Brighid: Any personal disputes you have, kindly handle them by personal emails. Don't drag your "witchwars" or other pettiness in here. Ironically the only thing you've done is revealed just how deeply disfunctional David Hobgood's following is. Anyone who creates that many enemies among what must be a fairly tiny pagan community in Whiting Indiana is someone you all should think long and hard about avoiding.

And that's not even taking into account all the many lies we've caught him in, simultaneously claiming to be a poverty stricken Cherokee-Druid healer on the edge of dying from disease and a karate master/bodyguard/death defying fighter with a successful school.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: weheli on April 08, 2006, 10:46:40 pm
 :)Thank you Joesph for clearing up the pipe. Raven is Cherokee and did come face to face with the man and she called him on his BS. Read her posting. Cherokees do have stones NEVER used as he does. Thats all I'll say on that.

It seems he wants to be a a little of everything to pull in the people. He one site sounds like an advertising/commercial "come one come all". To many incongruency in what you have posted. I am Cherokee and would love to hear the word you say would be "shaman" in our language.

My 2 cents worth.  Wado  Weheli
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Brighidsjustice on April 09, 2006, 02:27:56 am
sigh.  this is what i was trying to avoid.  i am not engaged in a "witch war".  i have not heard or seen evidence that david isn't  what he claims to be.  if anyone can show me where there is proof of fraud, please.  show me, and then this will all be over.

all i said, was that there were other people you should be looking at who might have wanted to cause david trouble other than the ex-girlfriend.  and why would i "face you"?  there was nothing to face you about!  i was there for a talk.  and it wasn't a talk from you.  no offense, but i was there to learn.  i'm not really sure how i'm attacking you, but i'm sure you'll enlighten me.  this list was forwarded to me yesterday.  i am here to get the truth.  but i will not blindly defend the man, nor will i sit back and let you attack an innocent person because of your anger.

i know your e-mail, so we can take this to a more private forum in the future.  but i did want to ask everyone who is posting on the subject, to try getting some facts.  just saying the guy is a fraud isn't really enough for me.  why do you think he is a fraud?  i've had readings from him.  the thing that raven said about the stones?  that isn't what he asks you to do.  has she really had a reading from him?  facts, people.  i want the real facts.  not just some crap because someone wants to start something.  this is why i remain a solitary pagan, and shy away from groups.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Tobetrue on April 09, 2006, 05:12:29 am
:( This whole thing upsets me! This is no longer a case of people discussing whether or not this person is a fraud. This has become what was called a “witch-war??? and when this occurs the pagan community as a whole looks very, very bad.  I have read these posts and seen many cases of people assuming its one person or another who posted the original claim. This is a bad idea in any case. As a person who is out of the loop so to speak I wonder why the people “defending??? David Spellsinger (Hobgood) are focusing on another person rather than letting him tell his side of the story and leave it as that. To these people I say Grow up and let the adults handle it.  The problem with this whole thing is that people are getting blinded by emotions. We should take a look at the facts and research.  Remember that the internet is public and we all know the saying “when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.??? Also if these people are trying so hard to “defend??? DSS why are they hurting his reputation even more by treating this as a “with hunt???.
Just my two cents take it or leave it that is up to you.
 :(
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: weheli on April 09, 2006, 05:57:33 am
In reply to "why didn't Raven do what he wanted her to do" very simple, he was calling it a Cherokee stone reading, Raven is Cherokee, raised with strong Cherokee traditions and knows the right ways of Cherokee things, FACT! She did not do what he said BECAUSE it IS NOT Cherokee ways. I am Cherokee and I would refuse to do something someone told me was Cherokee when I knew it to be a lie. Thats a Fact.

Real Tsalagi People Know the Way of things esp. being taught them from childhood up. No Shaman, no selling of teachings, no selling of ceramonies.Nothing is ever done for profit. Thats a Fact.

Having said that, it seems your ears are closed to the true way of things and your mind is set. I have nothing more to say.

                                                                    Wado  Weheli :)
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: LisaBowe on April 09, 2006, 03:41:45 pm
DSS: "I never claimed to be a pipe bearer of the Cherokee people."
 
ADMIN: Your followers claim differently.

Reply: Apparently you cannot read that was not one of his followers. ? He also denies it.

 
DSS "If anyone has any accusations to make, make them in an honorable way . . . face to face."
 
ADMIN: You're welcome to come here. Let's clear this up.

Reply: That's good to know, for DSS.


ADMIN: Ironic thing is, without his blind followers coming in here we would not have devoted more time to this and found out the bizarre information in the next post.

Reply: I am a against these types of websites that persuade themselves uncovering frauds. ? Yes, you posted some website information . ?  your site is now diminished and it has become, your guilty now prove your innocence. ?
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: piya on April 09, 2006, 03:53:09 pm
lol, this just gets like a cartoon..........................

I will look back and if the number is there, I will phone............

Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: piya on April 09, 2006, 04:07:24 pm
Yup, I phoned the number, 214 6590639, and guess what, I got a answer machine with I think an Italian or Spanish reply on it.

Now that sure is not Cherokee or Irish.

Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: isabellarose66 on April 09, 2006, 04:41:55 pm
To Piya,
If you would re read the phone number on the first post, it was 219-659-0639, not 214, but I could see how it could happen. ? Also, ? I have to say that I am sorry, there was a mistake, ?  pulchara and I are friends, ? this is known. ? She also lives really close to me and she used my computer because I have a DSL. ?  So, she didnt log out and I posted something that I thought was under my Screen name Isabellarose66. ? But it was actually hers. ? so the post #29 was from me and not her.

 David has a lot of friends , and I am sure he has enemies also. but understand that friends will defend friends no matter what. ?  He welcomed all who question him to call him. ? His number and info are posted on the first post. ? Feel free to call. ? I also think maybe toomanybooks should give him a call. ? You have such anger for this man, then please, call him. ?  Tell him all the things you say here. ? As far as BrighidsJustice, I am still waiting for your email. ? I will be happy to talk off this list, ? I have no problems with it. ? Yes, I was angry , because people are ripping apart someone I care deeply for. ? He is family, and I hope people here would defend their family as I am. ? I suppose I could have calmed down before writing it, that I will admit, but either way, somone has it out for him. ? And that is something that should be taken care of between them. ? YOu say you dont post phone numbers? ? All of his info was plastered on the first post. ?  So anyone here who wants to confront him, even if you dont live nearby, he has a phone, he will be more than happy to talk to you. ? I urge you to call. ? ? I am not going to post any more ? .. ? But I will say it again, call him directly. ? Thank you. Isabellarose
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: debbieredbear on April 09, 2006, 05:51:59 pm
Brighidsjustice, people have given you facts. Read what the Cherokee people on this thread had to say. They tried to tell you he is not a Cherokee shaman like it was claimed. Does he give you good readings? Fine, but that does not make him a Cherokee.Those readings are not Cherokee. And they do not make him a Cherokee shaman. Or medicine man or any other thing. If he was all that, he wouldn't tell people. They would know. As for being a druid? There are only neo-druids now. Most of the self-proclaimed druids I have met are really just wiccans dressed up funny. A dead giveaway is calling the quarters. The Celts believed in threes. Sky. Sea. Land.  I have done my historical readings.  The 4 quarters is a greek concept. All I see with druids and wiccans is a mish mash of beliefs pulled out of context and thrown together. If that is what your Spellsinger dude is doing, then he is just another wiccan. But if that turns you on, so be it. However, the reason DSS was posted was because of his claims to be a Cherokee Shaman. So again, read what the Cherokee people have said.

Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Reality on April 10, 2006, 02:13:08 pm
Lisa Bowe Here!

Apparently EducatedIndian has felt it necessary to block my IP address from the system and edit my post. ? You can delete my post, but do it with the knowledge that I have cut and pasted this entire exchange to be sent elsewhere on the Internet  ? You may delete and try to hide. ? Your fraud section is geared for guilty until proven innocent. ? How many people named fraud have you personally contacted? ? Have you ever conducted research? ? I find this disturbing.

This entire exchange has been documented and copied to avoid your ability to edit my reply.

Once again, this is Lisa Bowe.

(Al's note: We don't allow spamming, nor do we allow people to be insulting or childish. If Miss Bowe wants to show the whole world how she likes to spam and be childish in order to avoid the very serious questions of deception, fraud, abuse, and profiteering that Hobgood does, or the attempts to intimidate and silence critics that she and his other followers do, that only reflects badly on her and Hobgood.

Please also note Miss Bowe still needs help with her reading skills. Hoobgood has been heavily researched. We found a long history of deception on his part.)
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Barnaby_McEwan on April 10, 2006, 02:29:20 pm
Quote
Without the network of friends he has, this on line degradation of his character would continue unchecked.
LOL! You can tell a lot about a person by observing their friends. With friends like the ones who've appeared here, you don't need enemies, Hobgood!

Quote
My Grandmother (on my mother's side) was Maggie Running Fox Shoptaugh. [...] Her father was an ex- Priest of the Culdee Sect in Ireland (inserted reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culdee).
I'm quite sure you really are legally dead and talking from beyond the grave, since the Culdees disappeared, according to the page cited, in the 17th century! What a ludicrous fantasist!

Quote
I never claimed to be a pipe bearer of the Cherokee people.
But gosh, all sorts of people seem to have got the idea that you are. How did that happen? Why does it keep happening? How are you going to put a stop to it?

Quote
No one has ever said what I do is fraudulent or a pile of sh**t to my face.
Except Raven!

Quote
As you know, I am not on line...
You can get internet access for free or cheaply in any public library. Or perhaps one of your many friends, like the one who posted that message, would set up an account for you on their computer.

Quote
http://shaolinartsofwisdom.com/About_us.html
"Master Hobgood’s first Kwoon (martial arts school) “Tai Lung Gung Fu Institute???, was established in Evansville  Indiana in 1973.  The original goal of our American Kung Fu school was to offer reality based self-defense. Inspired by Bruce Lee's J.K.D. (Jeet Kuen Do) concept, Sifu Hobgood tested every technique and training method through real life combat situations. He accomplished this through his sideline as a Personal Bodyguard and as Chief of Security at one of Indiana's largest nightclubs. He also engaged in countless hours of no holds barred and or full contact fighting. Add to this over thirteen experiences in actual street self-defense situations (attempted muggings etc.) and you can understand why Sifu Hobgood is so confident that he knows what really works."

Doesn't sound very spiritual to me. Any martial arts instructor who is or appears to be continually involved in violence must, must, must be avoided. Someone like that has not learned how to avoid or defuse trouble but on the contrary seems to look for it, and will with his bragging set a dangerous example to his students, who might end up getting killed in some pointless brawl.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: piya on April 10, 2006, 07:13:36 pm
Raven,

I had to read ya last post a few times, then I cottened on. I thought it was a speach from King Richard the 1st or whoever.

lol.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: JosephSWM on April 11, 2006, 10:31:24 am
It must be my age but I get confused reading all the posts, keeping track of the good guys and the bad guys. The following suggestion is partly in jest and partly serious; perhaps there could be two additional icons besides the smiley faces - a black cowboy hat and a white cowboy hat, and when someone makes a post they would have to 'stamp' it with one or the other.

Joseph
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: kwa-kwen on April 11, 2006, 12:46:12 pm
You are right Joseph, after reading my post I see that I need to rewrite it so it doesn't sound so jumbled. I will mofify it so it makes more sense. Sorry for the confusion. I can see if someone reads it they are going to think what the heck was that about, I know I did. LOL Will be back in little while to modify what I wrote. Thanks
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: kwa-kwen on April 11, 2006, 01:48:33 pm
To all Mr Spellsingers followers and to Mr. Spellsinger himself.

As I stated in the beginning I did meet you many years ago by chance. Until that time I had never been to a new age store, or physic faire. I had never even heard the word new age until then.
You may pretend that you do not remember that day, I believe you do.

I have read your post and in your own words you speak of sitting "in circle with some honorable men, and you were humbled to be in their presence", please correct me if this is not what you have said.
I would like to address one of these honorable men that you sat with. His name was Jim Gillahan. Now I will give you a history on Mr. Gillahan of who he was.

Jim Gillihan was a white man that was dying of cancer, he was in a hospital and he asked if a medicine man could be sent for to preform a healing. Mr. Gillahan at that time was dying and there was nothing more the doctors were able to do for him.   I will not name the medicine man however I will say he is a relation.
There was a healing ceremony preformed, and yes Mr. Gillahan went into remission. However the path Mr. Gillahan took after that was exploiting our people.
He began to give lectures about his near death experience and went into details of what went on during the healing ceremony . He charged people to come and hear his story. The man traveled all over the states making money off of a sacred ceremony that saved his life.
As time went on, this relation was at my home and word got out about what Mr. Gillahan was doing. This relation called him from my phone and told him to never use his name in his lectures. He was very angry Mr. Gillahan was making monies from what he had done for him.

Some time had passed and then Mr. Gillahan "had a vision"  to begin a sun dance in southern Ind. He called his group the spotted bead clan.
I had received a call from a shirt tail cousin that told me she was part of Mr. Gillahan's group. I myself drove down there to confront him, however he was not at his sun dance at that time.. What I did see was a man boiling water and putting something in it, I asked him what it was. He told me it was medicine for their sweat lodge, I asked him what kind of medicine it was. He replied it was cocoa leaves.  I know that is the plant that cocaine is made from. I told the man he wasn't suppose to put anything in the water. However that fell on deaf ears.

I did finally have a very brief conversation on the phone with Mr. Gillahan and as soon as I mentioned who my relation was he cut our conversation off.

Another note here:
Mr Gillihan in his lecture travels, carried a pipe that he stated had once belonged to Sitting Bull. Now I ask you do you really think the Lakota Nation would allow a white man to have the pipe that belonged to one of their greatest leaders? I don't think so.

I witnessed many things there that not only was not tradtional but also illegal . It took myself and my grandfather to get through to this relation that what she was involved in was wrong. But before that happened her youngest daughter was sexual abused by one of Mr. Gillahan's head sun dancers.
So with that I ask you. You were humbled to sit with a man that not only exploited our people, but allowed sexual abuse to go on in his group and the use of an illegal drug?
That tells me you are no better than he is.

This is not about a man that had faults, this was a man that was an exploiter and was nothing more than a scam artist.
What I have said here is not heresay, but the truth and can prove it.
Exploiters and frauds seem to always travel in the same circle, Mr Spellsinger.  And what you say and what you do, don't go together at all.

As I stated in my former post, if you would like to have an open discussion in public on what you believe is cherokee tradtions. I would be more than willing to discuss it. Not in this room or through emails. I can come to you or vise versa, we can arrange to have a open forum for all to come and listen, however no admission costs, free to the public. I can and will prove what you lead people to believe is cherokee tradtions, is not. Get back with me on this an let me know.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: debbieredbear on November 02, 2007, 05:57:59 pm
An update sent to me by one of this guy's EX-followers:

MONTHLY CHEROKEE SPIRIT STONES CLASS- Sunday Nov. 11th---This class has been so popular that David Spellsinger will now encompass not only the Cherokee Spirit Stones but broaden the class into Native American Shamanism


Boy, he is really coming up with stuff for the gullible.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: earthw7 on November 02, 2007, 07:41:33 pm
I have to report that No one has Sitting Bull's pipe!
We know where it is.

What is a supposed Native (cherokee) doing at
a pagan fair??

We are taught that those who follow
this belief of pagan do not relate in anyway
to native people. they need to stay away from
our Native beliefs. The mixing of belief has been
taught to us as wrong. it cause people to lose
their mind as you can see.

Why do these people have to be Pipe carries?
We are now asking all white people to return the
pipes back the tribal nations.
Cherokee did not have that traditions.

Then on top of it another it is a ex-girlfriend faults.

How many of these fakes use the ex-girlfriend
buff to defend themsleves.
We have no ideal who this so called woman is
but she sounds like she is in good company
with all of these people.

My belief is to put a stop to these people
who damage Native beliefs.

They should be ashamed of what they do
as you can see they don't help[
Native people only the ones who
have money or lost white women.

This site has been used by our REAL spiritual
leaders to find out what is happening out in the
world.

Oh I have friends at Eastern Band Cherokee
will they acknowledge this guy???
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: debbieredbear on November 02, 2007, 10:43:44 pm
From whatv I understand, this guy is also wiccan. He has been charging and pulling this BS for awhile. I doubt your Eastern Band friends will know him. But you can ask.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: frederica on November 03, 2007, 06:09:02 pm
Makes you wonder if not already delusional. http://www.witchvox.com/vn/vn_detail/dt_cl.html?a=usin&id=5679              Talk about mix and match. I notice the site does not recommend or validate anyone. If I was ECBI I wouldn't claim him.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: educatedindian on January 06, 2010, 09:10:22 pm
Received this account. What's in it is so far unverified.

---------------------

Hi,

I thought you might like to know some real facts about David Spellsinger as I know them.

I have no stake in this, I make no claim to native American ancestry and do not engage in any of their traditions.  I simply happened across your web-site when doing some research, and was surprised to see the controversy regarding David.

I went to elementary and high school with David in Evansville , IN in the 60’s and 70’s.

His name is David Leo Hobgood.  He went to Cedar Hall Elementary and Central High School in Evansville .

His mother was of Cherokee ancestry.  He never described his father as being Irish, rather he said his farther was of mostly French ancestry.  David used to speak proudly of his French heritage when talking with me.   

David was raised by his mother in the Jehovah’s Witnesses.  I remember him telling me that there were no ministers per se in this sect, and that the responsibility for ‘giving talks’ at their meetings rotated among the members, and that he himself had done this.  Once we were in high school he seemed to grow away from this faith, but he never mentioned any other spiritual leanings.

David lived in Evansville until the mid-80’s, owning and operating a Kung Fu school at a number of locations.

I don’t want to get involved in the on-line debate and would prefer to remain anonymous in this matter.  Feel free to do what you can with this information. 

Thank you
Title: Who is this...David Spellsinger?
Post by: Ikooko Okurin on August 11, 2015, 06:49:21 pm
So a good friend of mine makes her living selling herbs, herbal mixtures and natural soaps all made by herself. She's a certified botanist/herbologist etc. She works really hard on her stuff. Anyway to be more relevant-- she was selling at a "New age pagan psychic fair" this passed Sunday. She says the whole scene irritates the hell out of her, but they buy her stuff like crack lol.

I went there to keep her company and while I was there I saw this David "Spellsinger" person-- an incredibly fat, old, obviously white man with a homely looking grey ponytail. I over hear people saying he's part Cherokee and giving "Cherokee Spirit Stone" readings, as well as being a master of Tai Chi and other Kung Fu. Now, I happen to be a kung fu martial artist...no "master" would ever let their bodies reach such a condition. Kung Fu is a life long hard work practice, you never stop training.

Needless to say this talk of "Cherokee Spirit Stones" raised my brow, it sounds incredibly fluffy and fake, but I don't presume to know that much about Cherokee divination practices, if there are any. I continued to listen and heard a woman talking about how she almost cried during her reading because Daivd went on about how she was really a powerful healer and needed to release her power. The woman was so tiny, thin, and sickly looking...It was sad and couldn't help but feel he'd just given this woman false hope.

Who is David Spellsinger(doubt that's his real name)? Is he a fraud? I only just discovered him this passed Sunday.
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Defend the Sacred on August 11, 2015, 07:55:26 pm
Seeker's Eye, we have this thread on him in Frauds. I've added your post here.

Again, the search function usually only works if you're on the index page of the forum, here: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php
Title: Re: David Spellsinger
Post by: Ikooko Okurin on August 11, 2015, 08:01:16 pm
Seeker's Eye, we have this thread on him in Frauds. I've added your post here.

Again, the search function usually only works if you're on the index page of the forum, here: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php

Ah thank you ^^. I searched typing "David Spellsinger" in the box but was only getting the "Sundance at Nashville,Indiana" thread where his name is only briefly mentioned. This thread wasn't showing in the results for some reason.
Title: Re: David Hobgood AKA David Spellsinger AKA Sifu David
Post by: Epiphany on August 11, 2015, 11:10:16 pm
Obit for David Hobgood's mother

http://www.boonefuneralhome.net/fh/obituaries/obituary.cfm?o_id=1588081
Title: Re: David Hobgood AKA David Spellsinger AKA Sifu David
Post by: Sparks on July 23, 2021, 04:57:17 am
Facebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/david.spellsinger [David L. Hobgood]

Numerous references to him at this Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/snowflakehealing/ [Often "Moon Rituals"]

Check: https://www.facebook.com/page/236535753178248/search/?q=spellsinger

Example: https://www.facebook.com/snowflakehealing/posts/1626239027541240 [My boldings]:
Quote
Snowflake Healing — July 27, 2020  ·
David Spellsinger is a spiritual teacher, Shaman, Seer, Reader, Master of Qi Gong and Tai Chi, Founder of Daoshadru.

David is the grandson of Cherokee Medicine Man Frank Fishing Bear and Irish Cherokee Medicine Woman Maggie Running Fox.

In his psychic readings David uses the Runes of the Elder Futhark, Cherokee Spirit Stones that were passed down from his grandmother and Tarot Cards that David himself hand illustrated in 1975.

A reading with David is healing and nurturing. Let David guide you on your path and open possibilities you never even thought of.

I could have added much about the New Age Divination con artists and their use of Runes. Maybe another day.