MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians

[Darby Weaver]

tuschkahouma said

Have you read They Say The Wind is Red?

Can you give us some examples from the book that make the case for the MOWAs?

tuschkahouma said

You all have been going off of a BIA determination that was a by  product of pure laziness on the BIA's part and yet you all recited it like it was the truth,which it is not.

What exactly don’t you agree with in the Proposed Findings Against Acknowledgment of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians?  Can you give some specific examples of what you don’t agree with and why, backed up by evidence?

Jackie Mattie has some 12 boxes of her research that is the evidence that you are asking for that lives today at University of South Alabama.

Everything is there - birth and death certificates, land ownership, letters, pictures, oral accounts, etc.

Starting to see the picture my friend?

Darby Weaver

[Darby Weaver]

I’ve read ALL of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians counter arguments that were recorded in the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs Hearings on June 26th, 1991 in regards to their Federal Recognition, and I’ve also read Jacqueline A. Matte’s testimony.  That was her opportunity to make her case.  She states that Indians were counted as black or white after the Civil War “because Indians were not supposed to be there”.   There is no evidence to support that the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indian’s ancestors were Indians neither after the Civil War, before the Civil War, nor at any other point in time. 

As I pointed out before, the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians ancestors, and Authentic Choctaw descendants that aren’t necessarily enrolled in one of the Federally Recognized Choctaw Tribes can document their Choctaw ancestry back for generations on many other documents besides censuses.  Even if this happened to be the case with the MOWAs, this does not explain why no evidence whatsoever going back over 200 years can substantiate any of their claims to being a Choctaw Tribe, an Indian Tribe or to being Indians.  The evidence clearly shows who their ancestors were, and they were not Indians.   Many of them believe they are of Indian heritage because of the oral story that was passed on to them in their family.

With that said, their BIA Denial was not based on one single factor such as a census, but based on a combination of many, many factors, all of which suggest that the overwhelming majority (or 98%) of the members of the Mowa Band of Choctaw Indians are neither Indians nor of Indian descent.  All of the evidence clearly shows these people are descended from whites, blacks, and Mulattos: Descended from people who in some cases were described as Cajans, Cajuns, Creoles, or Creoles of Color in some of the historical literature.  Some of their ancestors may have  claimed Indian, Choctaw, or Cherokee because of various Anti Miscegenation laws and other laws in place in Alabama and the Southeast at the time, and claiming Indian worked to their advantage, or as educatedindian pointed out,

for most white southerners, it was a way for the family to hide that they likely had Black ancestors, something most regarded with shame and was usually illegal at the time

.

I also suggest you read Origins of the MOWA Band of Choctaws: A Critique by Jonnie Andrews Jr.

As far as Richard Shelby, the US Senator from Alabama goes, he is a Senator from Alabama, and will do what he can to help and support his constituents.  He also testified at that hearing.   He cited the fact that they (the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians) got funding from Federal and State sources, and that that was some sort of proof that they are recognized as Indians.  Just because a Tribe is State Recognized and gets some sort of funding from the Federal or State Government is meaningless.  Just because a Governor signs a piece of paper recognizing a club as an Indian Tribe to bring in Federal dollars is also meaningless. 



tuschkahouma said

Geronimo's people spent seven years here and I've met Apache descendants in the Mowa community. A child of Geronimo’s attended Carlisle Indian School and died there. He is buried in Mobile

.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that supports the claims that any of the MOWAs are descended neither from Apaches nor from Geronimo.  What evidence do you have of this?

This theory was investigated in depth and can be found in the BIA document.

MOWA claims that-Lizzie Sullivan's father was an Apache that was imprisoned at Mt. Vernon Barracks in Washington County during their stay prior to removal to Oklahoma. The Apaches were at Mt. Vernon Barracks from 1887 until 1894. Evidence for this is -a statement of Lizzie's sister, as recorded in an -extract of an oral interview

.

Though the Apaches had interacted with the local population, there is no documentation to support the theory that any child was born of Apache parentage other than between the Apaches themselves. The interpreter, who married an Apache woman and removed to Oklahoma, had the only recorded Apache birth. The oral interview extract cited stated that the person had heard from Lizzie's sister that Lizzie’s father was an Apache named "Rye", but that he didn't know for sure. This was hearsay and not supported by any documentation. Several in-depth studies of this theory all have concluded that no Apache offspring could be found remaining in the Washington County, AL. Thus, it is highly improbable that Indian ancestry could be claimed through any of the Apache who had been at Mt. Vernon

.

educatedindian said

About the claims of Apache/Choctaw babies at Mt Vernon barracks, this was among the most heavily documented groups, ever. There was quite a media circus surrounding their imprisonment and every single Apache in the group was under heavy guard. The chances of a child being born with no one knowing about it are pretty slim

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educatedindian,

I beg to be forgiven for what I am going to say...

Do you think a man could have impregnated a woman at the Mt. Vernon Barracks (over some 600+ acres of land) whose brick walls were made by those same Apache and local Indians... while working together?

I guess you have never been to our neck of the woods - cause that's where we still reside today.

Hell, we barely have roads over the last 30-40 years or so...

50 plus years ago we barely had 5-6 house on the main highway through our community here in Mobile County.

Today people are inter-married and worse children are born out of wedlock and even worse from someone outside the marriage.... as it is. 

I guess it would not be unreasonable to suggest that this behavior originated somewhere...  in the family tree...

Darby Weaver

[Darby Weaver]

At the MOWA Choctaw hearing for Federal Recognition, the alleged Apache/MOWA Choctaw connection was also brought up in testimony.   According to the story of Geronimo’s Last Raid,  as was told by a MOWA Supporter and retired Anthropologist, the Apaches who were at MT. Vernon, allegedly raided a MOWA Choctaw funeral, stole their Sofki, threw a party for themselves, and then stole a MOWA Choctaw Baby.  Sofki is a fermented corn liquor.  The Apache ancestry story appears to be fairly prevalent with many MOWAS.


Here is the recorded testimony of Margaret Z. Searcy, a retired University of Alabama Anthropologist.  The story appears to have come from the MOWA Choctaw Chairman at the time, Framon Weaver.

One of the things I learned in talking to Mr. Weaver, was the story of Geronimo’s Last Raid.  I asked him to tell me about some of the things that happened in the past.  I was thinking in terms of old Searcy Hospital that at one time was a Federal Fort.  I asked him to tell me about that.
He said, “Well, Mrs. Searcy, I can tell you about Geronimo when Geronimo was there.”  I encouraged him to do so because after Geronimo and the Apaches were captured they were taken and kept at Searcy Hospital.  Federal soldiers allowed the Indians to go out and farm during the daytime.  I think Geronimo had to stay locked up, but the Apaches reported back to the fort every night.
When they went out, the MOWA were about to have a funeral.  They have distinct individual funeral customs.  For each funeral they prepared 10 gallons of sofki.  What is sofki?  It is fermented corn liquor.  So here were the MOWA with 10 gallons of fermented corn liquor for the wake.  While the Apaches were out, they stole the Mowa’s sofki, they had their own party, and then they stole the baby.
I asked what happened.  It seems that the Federal Government recognized that the Mowa had been deprived of their liquor and they replaced it.  I asked about the baby.  He told me that the baby was returned to the Mowa.

It is also interesting that at the Mowa Choctaw Cultural Center, besides having a Choctaw room, also has a Geronimo Room, and a Cherokee Room.   

http://www.alabama.travel/alabama-attractions/mowa_choctaw_cultural_center.html

The MOWA band has not denied that some members originate from other tribes my friend.

You suggest that this has been suggested.  I suggest not.

Darby Weaver

[Darby Weaver]

We have many reservations that have many tribes within them.
That is with many nations.
My concern is

Did you have a traditional Government that continued to today?
I am not talking about IRA Governments.

Do the relative/closly relatived tribes accept you as their people?

Do you have written documents from the tribes saying you are related?

Does the Apache nations accept your group and have they wrote support
letters to that fact?

Do you know how many Apache had children in your area do you have a count?

Do you have the Apache names of the decsendant because that can be traced.

Do you think our people (Indians) could even write to begin with... Many documents are signed with a simple "X".

We got some people who are 70-80 years old who got to the 6th grade so far and that was 100 years after the Indian Removal Act.

Starting to get the picture.

On one of our webistes - You will find a letter from Ed Tullis of the Poarch Creek asking for the MOWA to help his tribe obtain Federal Recognition - they later did achieve such recognition.  They forgot this request later.  We have the signed document to the fact.

There are pictures of Mississippi Choctaw that look like our family and some look like twins to some MOWA youth.

Hmm... not related?

Work it out for me why people who are white or black resemble folks from a recognized Indian Tribe 60-100+ miles to the West of us.

?

Coincidence, I suppose.

Darby Weaver

[Darby Weaver]

and personally...I'd like to hear about the Calcedeaver School.  It's history, when it started, how it started etc.  That's very interesting to me.  Can  you tell us some more?

Superdog

Easy.

Calcedeaver - The Indian School in Mount Vernon.  It is the modern day remnant of the older Weaver School previously. 

We recently received an award of some millions to purchase a new school for the aging Calcedeaver School for the Indians.

That's our school.  It is on Patillo Road in Mount Vernon.

Darby Weaver

[Darby Weaver]

About five months ago I contacted Mrs. Matte about a small cluster of Choctaw Indians still in Perry County, MS listed on the 1900 US Census with Choctaw names

Show us specific examples of these names from the Proposed Findings, and  if these are the same people, show us where and when they claimed to be Indians.  Many of the Mowa’s ancestors claimed Indian (as I pointed out before) because Race laws in Alabama started to become more strictly construed in Alabama.  Show us specific names and match them up with the Proposed Findings. 

As I previously stated about three pages ago in posting the Poarch Creeks also enrolled on the Eastern Cherokee rolls because all they heard was the words Indian rolls. It was acknowledged by the BIA for them but not for the Mowas in their application.

tuschkahouma, the Poarch Band of Creek Indians can easily prove who they are as Creek Indians, and of having a continuous political connection to the Creek Nation.  Here is the Proposed Finding in favor of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.  They should in no way be compared to the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians.

http://www.poarchcreekindians.org/xhtml/index.htm

http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001321.pdf

The contemporary Poarch Band of Creeks is a successor of the Creek Nation of Alabama prior to its removal to Indian Territory. The Creek Nation has a documented history back to 1540. Ancestors of the Poarch Band of Creeks began as an autonomous town of half-bloods in the late 1700's with a continuing political connection to the Creek Nation. The Poarch Band remained in Alabama after the Creek Removal of the 1830's, and shifted within a small geographic area until it settled permanently near present day Atmore, Alabama.

Hah!

We should only compare the Poarch to the MOWA when it is convenient to do so.

When the Poarch needed help they came to their brother tribe... the MOWA Choctaw...

Now things have turned after they received recognition.

Go figure...

Darby Weaver

[Darby Weaver]

bbreed said

I am confused about one thing though. Maybe some of you more learned people can answer though. Is everyone arguing that there are no choctaws in Alabama? Did they all except the Mississippi Choctaws just leave and go to Oklahoma?

I think most people who have contributed to this thread wouldn’t deny that there are bona fide descendants in Alabama of Choctaws that stayed behind after the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek.  Probably most of these descendants are just average people who don’t claim to be part of some bogus Tribe. 

But because this may be true, (that some Choctaws stayed behind), that does not necessarily mean  that the Mowa’s descend from these Choctaws.  In fact, other than that small percent who descend from Alexander Brashears, etc., all the evidence shows otherwise. 

Also, we are talking about these specific families such as the descendants of Daniel and Rose Reed, and the Weavers, etc. Also as Diana pointed out, virtually all of the Mowa’s ancestors who were supposedly Indians were actually immigrants from other places.  One of the core MBC families actually came in from Georgia.

Nevertheless that's our families in those graves in the Byrd Cemetery...  I guess people have "facts" denying that too... as far back as at least 1800.

Before that I suppose poor Indians were just buried where they lay.

Darby Weaver

[Epiphany]

(deleted by Piff, responding to spammer not helpful)

[Epiphany]

(deleted by Piff)

[RedRightHand]

Some of our folks are Choctaw (the current Mississippi Choctaw Princess seems to bear an uncanny to at least one MOWA squaw that lives on the Red Fox Road and a couple of others too).

(bolding added)

WHAT?!  22 spammy, self-aggrandizing posts in a row? Misogynist and racist epithets?

I don't think Mr. Weaver belongs here, except maybe as a topic in Frauds.

I'm told others, Natives, are also complaining about this guy. He's already demonstrated quite well what the problem is with fake tribes like the MOWA. If they'll enroll this racist white man they definitely belong in frauds. May I suggest that the spammer be banned? If he wants to email the names of his only NDN ancestors, which I'm sure he won't be able to find, he could do that. But I don't think the board should be subjected to his self-promotion. There's already plenty of it online, all you have to do is google and you'll learn far more about Mr. Weaver the fake Choctaw (or rather what he thinks about himself) than you ever wanted to know.

[Epiphany]

Some of our folks are Choctaw (the current Mississippi Choctaw Princess seems to bear an uncanny to at least one MOWA squaw that lives on the Red Fox Road and a couple of others too).

(bolding added)

WHAT?!  22 spammy, self-aggrandizing posts in a row? Misogynist and racist epithets?

I don't think Mr. Weaver belongs here, except maybe as a topic in Frauds.

I'm told others, Natives, are also complaining about this guy. He's already demonstrated quite well what the problem is with fake tribes like the MOWA. If they'll enroll this racist white man they definitely belong in frauds. May I suggest that the spammer be banned? If he wants to email the names of his only NDN ancestors, which I'm sure he won't be able to find, he could do that. But I don't think the board should be subjected to his self-promotion. There's already plenty of it online, all you have to do is google and you'll learn far more about Mr. Weaver the fake Choctaw (or rather what he thinks about himself) than you ever wanted to know.

Thanks, and I agree. I'm deleting my own posts in this thread cause it isn't helpful for me to respond to a misogynistic racist spammer as if any sort of rational discussion can be had.

[educatedindian]

For anyone wondering, he was banned for spamming and racism. Anyone imagining he's credible, google the guy and you'll see he also claims to work with both a CIA and FBI agent and to have women worldwide falling all over him.

One of the deleted posts claimed that there is a graveyard near Mt Vernon supposedly with 200 Apache dead from Geronimo's band. The band only had about 20 warriors. Any claim of his should be verified elsewhere.

Again, the number of MOWA with NDN ancestry is apparently not even 1/20 of them. How much of any NDN culture survived among them is debatable since they turned to enrolled Choctaw for help.

[Defend the Sacred]

Does anyone have a more specific reference to which Byrd and Weaver lines they are claiming are NDN? I've been looking into some of the claims about those, and related lines, but so far everyone looks to me to be white. Like, well-documented white. Privileged white. Slave-owning white.

ETA: I'm going back through the names that have been posted in this thread. Amazing the lack of identifying information given for these ancestors. Without birth and death dates, and birth and death locations, and sourcing for these facts, these names are just too common to prove a thing.  It sounds like the unsourced genealogies you find on ancestry.com where people are just changing names and dates with no sourcing whatsoever, to try and fit their personal theories.

The men are easier to find, but in some cases I think people have been swapping in the wrong spouses for these white men, in order to try to bring an NDN into a line of well-sourced, well-known white people.

[LittleOldMan]

Kathryn:  google this name Gallasneed Weaver.  I have friends and family from this area.  My Aunt worked with him in education she was with the state dept of education in charge of title one and title two.  She supervised all Native american Education including scholarships to University.  I believe he was a school principle.  She wanted to pursue scholarships for my children but backed off when I explained to her that my BQ was not high enough and neither was I enrolled in a tribe.  I new them for several years both he and Laretta were fine people very low key and not the type to claim something that they were not.  Do not know nor have I heard of a Darby weaver.  "Little Old Man"        

[Diana]

Another problem with that fake group. This is proof that these fake groups are not in it because they feel that they are actual Indians and deserve to be recognized for that. They are harmful greedy frauds that deserve to go to jail.
 
By  Michael Finch II | mfinch@al.com   

Fate of MOWA Choctaw gaming machines pushed back into state court

MOBILE, Alabama -- A federal judge pushed the court case involving the seizure of gambling machines owned by the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians back into Mobile County Circuit Court after challenges to the state's authority faltered. 

The tribe argued against the state's ability to seize and destroy 50 gaming machines that were carted away from the MOWA Choctaw Entertainment Center in November 2013 by the Mobile County Sheriff's Office.

Deputies raided their facility in Mount Vernon, hauling away the gambling machines, three computers and about $10,000 in cash.

During a forfeiture hearing, attorneys for the tribe invoked sovereign immunity, arguing the case could not be heard in state court because the judge lacked jurisdiction, forcing the legal proceedings into federal court. 

U.S. Magistrate Judge Sonia F. Bivins disagreed. Her report and recommendation, dated July 3, will be reviewed by a federal court judge, who will decide how much of her reasoning will be made law.

Each party has up to 14 days to file objections.

Mobile District Attorney Ashley Rich said her office is working with the state Attorney General's Office on any legal proceedings going forward.

Sam Hill, attorney for both defendants, said the tribe and JLM Games Inc. plan to file objections, adding that the decision lacked an "overlay" of American Indian law.

Hill, who is also the tribal judge for the MOWA Choctaws, said certain "assumptions in Indian law" were not fully addressed.

"Was this order surprising? No. Was it disappointing? Yes," Hill said.

In her ruling, a 27-page analysis of the case, Bivins explained that the tribe could not challenge the state's authority on the basis of tribal immunity, one of the tribe's key claims.

The tribe also sought to dismiss the suit on the grounds that the Indian Gaming Regulation Act, the federal law that governs the three classes of gaming federally recognized tribes are allowed to provide, preempted the state's authority.

"Because IGRA's text unambiguously limits its scope to gaming by tribes that have obtained federal recognition," Bivins wrote, "the statute does not apply to tribal groups such as the MOWA Tribe who have not obtained such recognition from the Secretary of Interior."

Bivins also ruled against a claim made by the tribe that their civil rights were violated.

group.http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf/2014/07/fate_of_mowa_choctaw_gaming_ma.html