NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: redhawk45 on July 17, 2008, 05:40:27 pm
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After reading so many posts upon this site, I have so many questions to ask each and every one of you all. They're unbiased, meaning I'm not bashing any one person in particular. I'm just very curious on what all of you think.
Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes, how can you tell which one is legitiment or not? Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real? Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member (even I don't believe in charging a fee).
Also, it brings me to the next question: Who all on here are Federally Recognized? State Recognized, or not even recognized at all? Who are just plain 'white men'? (note: I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)
If you're unrecognized, how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band? Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing. As to State Recognized tribes, unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them. It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.
Which here's the follow up question: Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership? For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition. The Shawnee URB didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat). If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.
I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized. Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here. I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage. But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes. I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer. They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland. If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up. So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition.
Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized. If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few. For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.
I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them. It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.
Eric
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After reading so many posts upon this site, I have so many questions to ask each and every one of you all. They're unbiased, meaning I'm not bashing any one person in particular. I'm just very curious on what all of you think.
Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes, how can you tell which one is legitiment or not? Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real? Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member (even I don't believe in charging a fee).
Also, it brings me to the next question: Who all on here are Federally Recognized? State Recognized, or not even recognized at all? Who are just plain 'white men'? (note: I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)
If you're unrecognized, how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band? Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing. As to State Recognized tribes, unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them. It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.
Which here's the follow up question: Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership? For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition. The Shawnee URB didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat). If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.
I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized. Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here. I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage. But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes. I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer. They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland. If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up. So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition.
Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized. If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few. For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.
I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them. It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.
Eric
Wrong forum Eric, but I'll try and tell you what I think on this subject. You seem to be focused on the governmental definitions of Indians. The more you learn about these definitions the more you'll learn that State Recognition is absolutely worthless. States come up with their own criteria for why they recognized an entity. On your group...the Allegheny Lenape, I've found no reference anywhere to them being state recognized. The only state recognized group I've found in Ohio is the URB of Shawnee. Pope Hawk would like people to believe that the tribe he's created is the exact same as any federally recognized tribe. What the URB is defined as in their state recognition, they are "descendants" of the Shawnee that existed in Ohio, but there's never been a governmentally recognized Shawnee tribe in Ohio. Just individuals identified and confirmed as Shawnee and the URB are individuals (not all of them because of their dubious membership) who descend from these people. That's the true nature of State Recognition for Pope Hawk's group.
He's very detailed and has a lot of references in letters and other things about the URB saved in files, but the existing Shawnee bands do not consider Pope Hawk as a leader and do not recognize the URB as a tribal entity. In short....they are not a tribe. If you look further into their legal existence you'll see this is in reality a non-profit organization who uses the words "nation" and "tribe" to define itself...nothing more. Pope Hawk himself is a character who's been on many people's watch list for a long time. The URB has been a revolving door of membership for a long time....some of the former members completely unhappy with members being asked to participate in ceremonies in the nude and other questionable practices. Pope Hawk also tends to stretch the truth. One of his latest claims is that the URB has never been given any grant money. A simple google search will turn up $60,000 donated to them in grant money in 2003.
Well enough rambling.
Forget governmental definitions. For me, being Indian starts with community and culture. Our language still exists and the language is the blueprint of anything I see as Indian. To speak the language means to think like the members of your community. Everything else falls from there.
I don't live in my community these days, but I'm tied to that land and the people. I'll always consider it home and I want to be buried there. I'm not descended from people that were Indian....I'm part of them....I don't shop for membership with tribes....I've never had a choice. Many people wanna glorify the existence of Indian people in this country, but the reality is...it's a tough existence. I'm treated like a foreigner in my own country. When I meet non-Indian people and they discover where I'm from they will tend to look at me and treat me like I grew up on a deserted island with a soccer ball for a pet. But no matter what the treatment is like....no matter how bad it can get....that's who I am and so I spend my life searching on ways to make things better for my community.
I think you really need to stop trying to find loopholes for a government definition of the Allegheny Lenape as a tribe. Your focus should be on your community. It should be on learning your language. It shouldn't be on trying to prove to anybody that you're Indian....you should just be Indian. I think you still have a lot to learn. I know several Lenape....they speak their language...they come from their communities. There's a cultural link between them and my tribe, but you exhibit none of the attributes I've learned to attribute to Lenape people. Your regalia is seriously flawed in that regard. Research the Lenape a little bit and you may learn some things. Learn the Gluskabe stories, learn your language. If you spend your life yelling to the world "I'm Indian", but you live your life as a non-Indian....you'll see that this is easily seen through.
Superdog
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I totally agree with you, but not being recognized even by Federal you have no access to no funds for helping to buy a home, helping me with college, nor can I even 'own' any bird of prey feathers and wear them proudly like any other NDN at powwows and gatherings - if ya do, you'll get busted by a ranger and be in jail.
It irritates me that I cannot wear something like feathers that are sacred to me, nor be able to get that bit of extra grants for college to help me graduate faster.
You are so true, State Recognition is pretty much a glorified way of holding a tribe together, or help the state with their tourism. But many non-recognized people (those who can prove their geneology and DNA together and have it match, like my mother and I) look towards State or Federal Recognition - and the latter I know we'll never get in because our ancestors never made it west to the reservations.
As to my regalia, I know...that was worse than one previously. Currently I'm working on a better looking regalia: a floral beaded vest, apron (and biker shorts to wear underneath), buckskin leggings and soon will buy puckered toe moccasins to make. Trust me, I'd never wear that wolfhide of mine in this 90 degree heat! lol. But, I'm pretty much doing research. Going to get a traditional bustle and roach for Men's Northern Traditional dancing next year at powwow, along with a breastplate (even though as far as I know the Lenape never wore breastplates like what we see). I'm still unclear, though, on what is traditional for an eastern woodland headdress, for Shawnee or Lenape (remember, i'm a mixture of Alaskan Athabaskan, Shawnee and Cree - and adopted by the Lenape). If you have some links to pictures and/or how to make them, please let me know. Oh, most of my regalia is cloth (green apron and vest), the only thing leather would be my leggings.
Getting back to the task at hand...I have tried to learn Lenape (a hard language to learn), learn customs and religion (this latter is REALLY hard, since there isn't any elders I know living around here but my own mother, and she wouldn't know), and I've got skills for traditional crafts - especially beadwork. Beading my vest in a floral pattern was something new to me, but it worked wonders.
Thank you for posting...you're the only one out of 58 people who seen my post and cared enough to answer.
Eric
After reading so many posts upon this site, I have so many questions to ask each and every one of you all. They're unbiased, meaning I'm not bashing any one person in particular. I'm just very curious on what all of you think.
Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes, how can you tell which one is legitiment or not? Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real? Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member (even I don't believe in charging a fee).
Also, it brings me to the next question: Who all on here are Federally Recognized? State Recognized, or not even recognized at all? Who are just plain 'white men'? (note: I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)
If you're unrecognized, how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band? Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing. As to State Recognized tribes, unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them. It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.
Which here's the follow up question: Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership? For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition. The Shawnee URB didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat). If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.
I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized. Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here. I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage. But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes. I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer. They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland. If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up. So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition.
Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized. If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few. For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.
I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them. It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.
Eric
Wrong forum Eric, but I'll try and tell you what I think on this subject. You seem to be focused on the governmental definitions of Indians. The more you learn about these definitions the more you'll learn that State Recognition is absolutely worthless. States come up with their own criteria for why they recognized an entity. On your group...the Allegheny Lenape, I've found no reference anywhere to them being state recognized. The only state recognized group I've found in Ohio is the URB of Shawnee. Pope Hawk would like people to believe that the tribe he's created is the exact same as any federally recognized tribe. What the URB is defined as in their state recognition, they are "descendants" of the Shawnee that existed in Ohio, but there's never been a governmentally recognized Shawnee tribe in Ohio. Just individuals identified and confirmed as Shawnee and the URB are individuals (not all of them because of their dubious membership) who descend from these people. That's the true nature of State Recognition for Pope Hawk's group.
He's very detailed and has a lot of references in letters and other things about the URB saved in files, but the existing Shawnee bands do not consider Pope Hawk as a leader and do not recognize the URB as a tribal entity. In short....they are not a tribe. If you look further into their legal existence you'll see this is in reality a non-profit organization who uses the words "nation" and "tribe" to define itself...nothing more. Pope Hawk himself is a character who's been on many people's watch list for a long time. The URB has been a revolving door of membership for a long time....some of the former members completely unhappy with members being asked to participate in ceremonies in the nude and other questionable practices. Pope Hawk also tends to stretch the truth. One of his latest claims is that the URB has never been given any grant money. A simple google search will turn up $60,000 donated to them in grant money in 2003.
Well enough rambling.
Forget governmental definitions. For me, being Indian starts with community and culture. Our language still exists and the language is the blueprint of anything I see as Indian. To speak the language means to think like the members of your community. Everything else falls from there.
I don't live in my community these days, but I'm tied to that land and the people. I'll always consider it home and I want to be buried there. I'm not descended from people that were Indian....I'm part of them....I don't shop for membership with tribes....I've never had a choice. Many people wanna glorify the existence of Indian people in this country, but the reality is...it's a tough existence. I'm treated like a foreigner in my own country. When I meet non-Indian people and they discover where I'm from they will tend to look at me and treat me like I grew up on a deserted island with a soccer ball for a pet. But no matter what the treatment is like....no matter how bad it can get....that's who I am and so I spend my life searching on ways to make things better for my community.
I think you really need to stop trying to find loopholes for a government definition of the Allegheny Lenape as a tribe. Your focus should be on your community. It should be on learning your language. It shouldn't be on trying to prove to anybody that you're Indian....you should just be Indian. I think you still have a lot to learn. I know several Lenape....they speak their language...they come from their communities. There's a cultural link between them and my tribe, but you exhibit none of the attributes I've learned to attribute to Lenape people. Your regalia is seriously flawed in that regard. Research the Lenape a little bit and you may learn some things. Learn the Gluskabe stories, learn your language. If you spend your life yelling to the world "I'm Indian", but you live your life as a non-Indian....you'll see that this is easily seen through.
Superdog
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1. Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes, how can you tell which one is legitiment or not? Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real? Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member (even I don't believe in charging a fee).
2. Also, it brings me to the next question: Who all on here are Federally Recognized? State Recognized, or not even recognized at all? Who are just plain 'white men'? (note: I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)
3. If you're unrecognized, how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band? Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing. As to State Recognized tribes, unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them. It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.
4. Which here's the follow up question: Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership?.....
5. Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized. If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few.....
Eric
I hope you don't mind, but I added numbers to make it clearer what I was answering to.
1. I would say the standard is a pretty simple one. Vine Deloria defined being Indian as knowing who your relatives are. If the fed recognized tribes in turn recognize an unrecognized tribe or band, that should be the ultimate standard. If the fed recognized tribes don't recognize them, at best they are descandants, at worst frauds or even in a few cases cults or militias. (Do a search for the threads on the Pembinas if you doubt me.)
2. I don't think anyone has ever done a survey or gone through all the profiles to see the numbers of enrolled vs non. I don't think any of us has ever felt that was important. If you read our Welcome message and Who We Are, we clearly say that BQ and enrollment doesn't matter to us.
I'd guess the number of whites in here is probably around 15-20%, made up mostly of people who came here to ask questions. But that's just my own guess.
3. I don't know of any "bashing" done in here by longtime NAFPS members. None. We ask questions, and we criticize. Sometimes people let off steam about the frustrations dealing with the worser frauds we encounter, such as Rachel Holzwarth.
But everything I've seen in here that I'd call a rant has come from our critics who came here.
4. I have no idea where you get this. First, those unrecognized (and even some state "recognized") groups rarely turn down anybody. Some do quite a bit of recruiting for marks/members.
And second, I don't know of anyone in here who fits this particular bizarre question you're asking.
5. There's certainly a lot of problems with the recognition process, though most of that is the fault of the BIA and to a lesser extent anti Indian groups near the tribes in question.
Some of the tribes who were cut off during Termination have been re-recognized, esp some of the California rancherias. Some have had to go through the process several times, like the Miami of Indiana.
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Thank you Nighthawk.
That had to be the most honest, heart-felt answer so far.
I do feel for those Indigenous people up there in Canada. I followed along when it came to the Haudenosaunee with their battle in Ontario, crossing my fingers that they would push the government away. I even remember a few posts elsewhere on the net that was requesting all Indigenous people to help by coming up there.
Though my ancestry is distant for my Cree blood (very distant), I do consider the tribes up there relatives. My mother even tried to reconnect up there with a band...but was redirected to the main govt. (the same you are talking about), and learned you had to be a Canadian citizen in order to be a member of a tribe in Canada. Oh, you could be registered with Canada as being Indigenous, but you cannot be a true member of a band/tribe unless you became a Canadian citizen. I don't know if that sounds backwards to you, but it does to me, especially if what you said is true about them creating tribal rolls. If they keep doing things that way, allowing one thing such as being recognized in Canada as Indigenous, and then allowing a person to be a member of a tribe if you become a citizen of Canada...these rolls are going to be all messed up!
Thank you for your answer...that last two paragraphs actually makes sense, even though clans and tribes in my family disappeared in my great-great-grandfather's time when people decided to keep things quiet and the family bible out of reach from people (which we know the truth is in that bible)...until my mother done the geneology and DNA to bring that secret back out in the open again about being Indigenous (even though it still lacks clans and bands). LOL...if I could storm my relatives house to get that family bible, I would. That thing holds every single record about the family back beyond my grandfather; was going to be given to my mother at the time of her aunt's death, but was immediately taken by a cousin, then another cousin after that died. The excuse: "it's somewhere in the attic packed away...I'm too tired to look for it..", etc.:P
Eric
This is a little bit off topic but I want to say that a lot of what is in here is helpful to me in understanding what may happen in the future in "Canada". It's estimated that something like 80 percent of Indigenous people here live off reserve, and many people are Non-status, much more than those who are Status. There aren't rolls here like there are in the USA and (obviously) nothing like termination has happened. Much of the land has never been ceded and is not under treaty other than "peace and friendship" treaties, though the government (a constitutional monarchy) has been behaving as if it were "theirs". That's why what's going on in Ontario with the Nogonquins is happening, they want a group of people to sign over the land to "Canada" and from what I've been able to learn so far (and there's millions of acres involved) those Nogonquins have also agreed that they will just go back to being "Canadians" once they get a cash settlement and sign away the land belonging to the Anishnabek and Haudenosaunee, in other words they are Indians with a time-lapse built in, a past-due date (I think three years) after which they will no longer be Indians.
Up until this year Indigenous people in Canada were not protected under Human Rights legislation (in the USA I think this would be civil rights, about equivalent) and barely considered to be persons. Even though Human Rights have now been extended to those on reserves, for some things there's still three years to go before they have the same recognised rights as everyone else in North America.
All that I read here, or a lot of it, seems to have to do with those who are enrolled or not-enrolled, or who descend from people who were enrolled, well "Canada" doesn't yet have any rolls per se, but it appears they are trying to get people to self-declare so they can compile the rolls, that's the stage it seems to be at up here, I am guessing they are about 100 years or so behind the USA in a lot of things, but trying to catch up fast. In 1924 (maybe 1923) the government "conferred" Canadian citizenship on the Indigenous people unilaterally, and established band councils and reserves. But it seems a lot of people did not go on reserves and do not consider themselves to be citizens. I've heard of people who don't have birth certificates because they were born in the bush.
So the issues are pretty different, I've had to do a lot of reading to catch up and try to understand what's going on, and what might happen. I'd say north of the 49th a lot of it is still a struggle for the land, and trying to get the government to respect the people (and stop pointing guns at them!) and honour the treaties.
There are wannabes here and there, but the problems are so many and benefits pretty much non-existent, so those are very few. Though that might change as the situation changes.
As to the question "what makes an NDN an NDN"? Well I don't like and won't use the term "Indian" to describe myself, I'm not alone in this. But for now the stage that "Canada" seems to be at is asking Indigenous people to declare who they are, they want to know so they can give us all numbers and then who knows... maybe repeat the US pattern of abuse (as I see it) including forcing people off their own land, onto "reservations" (not the same thing at all as "reserves") and then terminating their communities? That's not a good thing, maybe it can be stopped before it even starts.
What makes an Indigenous person Indigenous? Well my people are matrilineal/matrifocal, so if you have an Indigenous mother (and thus a clan), you're Indigenous by birthright. I don't think there's one set answer, it depends on the people and the nation and even the community, their stories about themselves and where they are from, their cultural beliefs.
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Redhawk
There has already been lots of discussions on this so I am just posting some links to what has already been written ...
The thread on Ward Churchill starting reply # 19
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1632.0;all
People Of Distant Indian Ancestry
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0
questionable ndn idenities & tribes
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0
DNA tests 4 Ndn ancestry & some statistics
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1375.0
There's also this article from the CNO ... Although this is about Cherokee
tribes the issues are probably similar for similar groups in simillar circumstances .
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1011.0
I really disagree with the attitude of entitlement expressed below.
Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008,
Redhawk
I totally agree with you, but not being recognized even by Federal you have no access to no funds for helping to buy a home, helping me with college, nor can I even 'own' any bird of prey feathers and wear them proudly like any other NDN at powwows and gatherings - if ya do, you'll get busted by a ranger and be in jail.
If you are 15/16 of colonial descent why would you imagine you can just ignore the debts of the vast majority of you ancestors who arrived as colonists ? How is it that the debts of 15 out of 16 of your ancestors are outwieghed by what one of your 16 ancestors might be owed?
IMO if your small bit of Native blood entitles you to anything, all it would be is a bit of sensitivity which would motivate you stick up for the recognition and rights of existing communities of Native people.
From what you have said about yourself you are not " a community of Native people " . If you are anything you would be a distant descendant who's Mom had an interest in learning about a small part of her heritage. And your Mom didn't even know enough to avoid getting involved with a mostly non native exploiter.
As Superdog says, you sound like you have a lot to learn and the only place you can learn this is in a Native community that had enough members to survive and maintain the culture. While I agree recognition which comes from any group of mostly non native people - such as the federal government - is not a good point of reference , federally recognized tribes are a good refference point , because they were strong enough in numbers to remain viable and retain their culture.
In reply # 8 in the link below is an explaination why I think Native traditions need to be retained within th ontext provided by a strong and viable Native community.( see Reply #8 )
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=998.0
Nighthawk...
I want to say that I really appreciate what you contribute here. I find you intellegent, a good researcher, and even when people disagree with you , I have never seen you resort to personal attacks, which is something I really respect .
However , I think we probably disagree on how to define who is Ndn and who isn't. Hopefully this might be an opprotunity to explore our different values and assumptions and I really hope you won't be offended by what I am going to say.. .
I am noticing you mention your partner Simons descent from the Cote family quite often and that you believe this family and the family of his wife Ann Martin were Native .
http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=168&start=10
Nighthawk
All people with that name in North America who've been here longer than a couple of centuries are related, and all are descendant of one Indigenous person named Jehan/Jean Cote' dit Coste'. If the date of his birth (1604) is correctly given within about a decade, he would be Mi'kmaq and probably from Anticosti Island (kidnapped or a survivor of the "clearance" of the Island which is known as Natigostec to the Mi'kmaq). His wife was Anne Martin/Matchonon, known to be Huron. Those two are the ancestors of pretty much all the Cote'/Cota/Coty/Cody.
Anyway there are about 50,000 to 100,000 of his living descendants on Turtle Island
http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 Re: "Dit" Names - FN family, the Conspiracy against My People
SimonRaven
as one of those people, one of my ancestors was one of those kidnapped children,
some of the traditions may have disappeared in some cases, but not all of them. some were indeed kept underground, and will be kept underground, until the genocide stops
Posted: Mon Jun 16, Re: "Dit" Names - FN family, the Conspiracy against My People
Nighthawk
More than one... people have all heard of the "Plains of Abraham", right?
Well the full name of the person that plain is named for is "Abraham Martin" in french.
According to the Jesuit Relations, the name Martin replaced the Huron name Matchonon: "On the 3rd of November of the same year [1635-36?], Father Charles l'Allemant baptized a young Savage about twenty-five years old, called by the people of his nation Matchonon, surnamed by the French, Martin; at baptism he received the name of Joseph." (Reference, the Jesuit Relations)
Simon is a descendant of Anne Martin/Matchonon who was the sister of Abraham, and Huron-Wyandot.
So ... I am seeing the Cote and Martin families repeatedly brought up as being Simon's Native lines and I have not seen any other Native ancestors mentioned. I also see Simon say's he's descended from ONE of these children he believes were taken and educated by missionaries and you say there was 2 of these children. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but I get the impression from these various comments, that it is on the basis of one or two ancestors who lived back in the 1600's that your partner Simon claims to be Mi'kmaq . Is this correct?
When your partner Simon Raven says he is Mi'kmaq , is he saying this based only on his descent from Jean Cote, or does he also have some much more recent Mi'kmaq descent?
I guess I also have to say that in my only partially informed opinion , I think the genealogical information you have provided on these families is probaby incorrect .
I believe the links below give much more accurate information on the origins of this family;
http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/the_french.html
http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/quebec_realfirst.html
http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/Kebec/anne_martin.html
I understand some of the conclusions in the links above are just guesses based on the available evidence, and what you are claiming is possible -
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Edited to add the Y DNA results showing 3 French Canadians descended from Cote have European patrilineal DNA. Assuming these people descend from Jean Cote - and Nighthawk has claimed he is the patrilineal ancestor of all or most Cotes in North America , this probably proves beyond all doubt that Jean Cote was a European.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/index.aspx?fixed_columns=on
Cote J2
Cote J2
Cote J2
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Doing accurate research on a family from that long ago is a huge undertaking and I don't think this is the place to get into debating this particular genealogy , except to say there is some different opinions on what the existing records might mean, and you own opinion seems to be quite different than the opinion of most mainstream genealogists ... It's certainly possible you are guessing right about this family being Mi'kmaq and Huron, and pretty much everyone else is guessing wrong that it is French , but I have to say some key points of what you are guessing about this family is based on evidence that doesn't appear to actually exist.
But if all that is being claimed is one or two native ancestors who lived back in the 1600's , assuming a substantial part of Simon's family has been in Quebec since 1621, like anyone who's family lived on this continent close to 400 years, he probably has a small percentage of Native descent from very distant indigenous ancestors.
In the link below is the mtDNA results of people with French Canadian ancestry ;
http://www.frenchdna.org/FCmtDNAResults.htm
As you can see about one in 20 of the people who paid to get tested has an indigenous mtDNA.
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Edited to correct bad math. I originally said 1/20 - below and then realized as mtDNA only represents matrilineal lines , the 1 in 20 mtDNA lines thas show a indigenous origin only represent 1/2 of the general populations heritage and Y DNA would represent the other 1/2 . So I changed this to 1/40
How i would intepret this is that AT MOST the average French Canadian is about 1/40 of Native descent.
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It is probably substantially less than that though, as i suspect the people who pay to get tested are more often people who were adopted or who have some reason to think they are of Native descent . So probably people who pay to get an mtDNA test are more likely to have a native background than the averge person in the general population .
But even if the true general percentage of indigenous mtDNA in the average French Canadian population was much less - like only one in 100 - if you count back to the 1600's most people have about 4000 ancestors , so even if it was on average only one in 500 that would still work out be that an average person with only one parent who was French Canadian would have about 4 Native ancestors way way back there.
So debating complex historical and genealogical facts and whether or not Jean Cote was Mi'kmaq isn't really necesary to guess that Simon, like most French Canadians, almost certainly has at least one or two distant Native ancstors back there somewhere .
Which leads to the next question ;
Do you really believe that someone who descends from one or two Native ancestors who lived 300- 400 years ago or even 200 years ago is a Native person and should have the right to claim and control resources which belong to federally recognized Native communities?
Which leads to the next question.
Are you then saying that all French Canadians should be recognized as Ndn peoples?
And
If you don't believe this, at what point would you decide a person was too distantly descended to be considered an Ndn?
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Maybe we should have a separate area on this board for genealogy and MomaPorcupine could check us all out....I know i don't have much time to research anymore since I have to pay the rent etc......great way to find those pesky furtive ancestors' existence on paper!
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When I pointed out some of what has been said about Simons background in relation to his claims that he is Mi'kmaq I wasn't trying to make any personal comment about Simon , I was simply showing my sources and explaining what made me wonder how you define who is Ndn. I do this in pretty much every topic so people can see what I am refering to . I wasn't trying to get personal.
Me
When your partner Simon Raven says he is Mi'kmaq , is he saying this based only on his descent from Jean Cote, or does he also have some much more recent Mi'kmaq descent?
So as I understand it Simon is claiming to be Mi'kmaq on the basis of many more ancestors , than just Jean Cote and Ann Martin. That was all I was wondering.
Me
Do you really believe that someone who descends from one or two Native ancestors who lived 300- 400 years ago or even 200 years ago is a Native person and should have the right to claim and control resources which belong to federally recognized Native communities?
So apparently you believe if people have any Native blood at all and proclaim themself Native people and can get enough of their relatives to do the same , they can claim to be a Native community , and in your opinion they are whatever they claim.
Me
Are you then saying that all French Canadians should be recognized as Ndn peoples?
So if I am understanding you correctly you are saying yes to this as well , and you think that the French canadain people should be considered to be metis because many of them are people of very distant descent and they already are a distinct society .
Me
If you don't believe this, at what point would you decide a person was too distantly descended to be considered an Ndn?
So , you are sayng thats someone who is 1/1024 should be considered to be an NDn , if a comunity of people who are on average between 1/250 - 1/4000 get together and say they are ?
We don't agree on this ...
Nighthawk
If you are going to copy my licensed work for anything other than your own personal use, I'd appreciate if you'd ask me first in future and obtain my permission. You also could have addressed a lot of this over there, for that matter, since it was published there and not here. Almost none of it has to do with the topic here ("What makes an NDN an NDN") or even the forum ("New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans") I don't think.
i'm sorry i had no idea what that licence meant ... I wouldn't use your genealogy for anything - i've already said i don't think it is correct.
I just try to quote people and provide a concrete reference to what I am talking about, as I would think it would help people not to feel their words were being distorted or misrepresented . It is posted on another public message board , so I can't see how that would violate your privacy or the ownership of your work and i did provide links and attribute it to you.
We do disagree on how to define who is an NDn - and I strongly disagree, but I feel it's best if we stay with the issue .
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Apparently there is a bit of confusion as to fractions here. the last 1/2 breed (as some may call him) was in my great grandfather, due to a half-breed and a full NDN marrying and having a child, which would still be 1/2, since there is no 3/4ths in blood quantum. Fractions shown are of Native ancestry.
Maybe this will help: 1/16th, 1/8th, 1/4th, 1/2, 1/2 + 1 full
me, mom, grandfather, grt grandfather, grt gfather + grt gmother
Cont.: Great Grandfather's side - father was 1/16, mother 1 full
The last full blood is only 4 generations back, the last 1/2 blood 3 generations back.
So, pretty much, I don't fall short as you clearly say I do, saying 15/16, which pretty much would only give me 1/32 or possibly 1/64, only 1%, when I have more than that. Not even I understand how tribes can take in people of 1/32, when to me the stop point is 1/16th, and after that it's washed out.
My mother and I will always be members of the Alleghenny Lenape, for they are still around. Sammy was NDN, yet was also a crook (not all NDN's are nice and friendly and honest).
A Federally Recognized tribe might be good to get information from for politics and culture, I know many Federally Recognized tribes would push away someone who can prove the geneology due to the idiotic rolls set up by the BIA, because our ancestors never went out to live on a rez. You cannot say that my ancestors were less honorable because they decided to inter-marry and stay on their homeland. True, I feel for those people who went westward, of what they endured, but it doesn't give no Federally Recognized NDN any right to dictate who is and who isn't just from 'ancient' rolls. Even today, those rolls are added to, but the problem is the old rolls needs to just be a reference, not demand that an ancestor has to be on it.
I agree with you on the one part that we must ensure that cultures are saved, and that we should learn from those on the rez., for the cultures are more preserved than the Alleghenny Lenape. I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.
Thank you for your links, though, and some advice.
Eric
Redhawk
There has already been lots of discussions on this so I am just posting some links to what has already been written ...
The thread on Ward Churchill starting reply # 19
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1632.0;all
People Of Distant Indian Ancestry
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0
questionable ndn idenities & tribes
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0
DNA tests 4 Ndn ancestry & some statistics
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1375.0
There's also this article from the CNO ... Although this is about Cherokee
tribes the issues are probably similar for similar groups in simillar circumstances .
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1011.0
I really disagree with the attitude of entitlement expressed below.
Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008,
Redhawk
I totally agree with you, but not being recognized even by Federal you have no access to no funds for helping to buy a home, helping me with college, nor can I even 'own' any bird of prey feathers and wear them proudly like any other NDN at powwows and gatherings - if ya do, you'll get busted by a ranger and be in jail.
If you are 15/16 of colonial descent why would you imagine you can just ignore the debts of the vast majority of you ancestors who arrived as colonists ? How is it that the debts of 15 out of 16 of your ancestors are outwieghed by what one of your 16 ancestors might be owed?
IMO if your small bit of Native blood entitles you to anything, all it would be is a bit of sensitivity which would motivate you stick up for the recognition and rights of existing communities of Native people.
From what you have said about yourself you are not " a community of Native people " . If you are anything you would be a distant descendant who's Mom had an interest in learning about a small part of her heritage. And your Mom didn't even know enough to avoid getting involved with a mostly non native exploiter.
As Superdog says, you sound like you have a lot to learn and the only place you can learn this is in a Native community that had enough members to survive and maintain the culture. While I agree recognition which comes from any group of mostly non native people - such as the federal government - is not a good point of reference , federally recognized tribes are a good refference point , because they were strong enough in numbers to remain viable and retain their culture.
In reply # 8 in the link below is an explaination why I think Native traditions need to be retained within th ontext provided by a strong and viable Native community.( see Reply #8 )
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=998.0
Nighthawk...
I want to say that I really appreciate what you contribute here. I find you intellegent, a good researcher, and even when people disagree with you , I have never seen you resort to personal attacks, which is something I really respect .
However , I think we probably disagree on how to define who is Ndn and who isn't. Hopefully this might be an opprotunity to explore our different values and assumptions and I really hope you won't be offended by what I am going to say.. .
I am noticing you mention your partner Simons descent from the Cote family quite often and that you believe this family and the family of his wife Ann Martin were Native .
http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=168&start=10
Nighthawk
All people with that name in North America who've been here longer than a couple of centuries are related, and all are descendant of one Indigenous person named Jehan/Jean Cote' dit Coste'. If the date of his birth (1604) is correctly given within about a decade, he would be Mi'kmaq and probably from Anticosti Island (kidnapped or a survivor of the "clearance" of the Island which is known as Natigostec to the Mi'kmaq). His wife was Anne Martin/Matchonon, known to be Huron. Those two are the ancestors of pretty much all the Cote'/Cota/Coty/Cody.
Anyway there are about 50,000 to 100,000 of his living descendants on Turtle Island
http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 Re: "Dit" Names - FN family, the Conspiracy against My People
SimonRaven
as one of those people, one of my ancestors was one of those kidnapped children,
some of the traditions may have disappeared in some cases, but not all of them. some were indeed kept underground, and will be kept underground, until the genocide stops
Posted: Mon Jun 16, Re: "Dit" Names - FN family, the Conspiracy against My People
Nighthawk
More than one... people have all heard of the "Plains of Abraham", right?
Well the full name of the person that plain is named for is "Abraham Martin" in french.
According to the Jesuit Relations, the name Martin replaced the Huron name Matchonon: "On the 3rd of November of the same year [1635-36?], Father Charles l'Allemant baptized a young Savage about twenty-five years old, called by the people of his nation Matchonon, surnamed by the French, Martin; at baptism he received the name of Joseph." (Reference, the Jesuit Relations)
Simon is a descendant of Anne Martin/Matchonon who was the sister of Abraham, and Huron-Wyandot.
So ... I am seeing the Cote and Martin families repeatedly brought up as being Simon's Native lines and I have not seen any other Native ancestors mentioned. I also see Simon say's he's descended from ONE of these children he believes were taken and educated by missionaries and you say there was 2 of these children. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but I get the impression from these various comments, that it is on the basis of one or two ancestors who lived back in the 1600's that your partner Simon claims to be Mi'kmaq . Is this correct?
When your partner Simon Raven says he is Mi'kmaq , is he saying this based only on his descent from Jean Cote, or does he also have some much more recent Mi'kmaq descent?
I guess I also have to say that in my only partially informed opinion , I think the genealogical information you have provided on these families is probaby incorrect .
I believe the links below give much more accurate information on the origins of this family;
http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/the_french.html
http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/quebec_realfirst.html
http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/Kebec/anne_martin.html
I understand some of the conclusions in the links above are just guesses based on the available evidence, and what you are claiming is possible -
Doing accurate research on a family from that long ago is a huge undertaking and I don't think this is the place to get into debating this particular genealogy , except to say there is some different opinions on what the existing records might mean, and you own opinion seems to be quite different than the opinion of most mainstream genealogists ... It's certainly possible you are guessing right about this family being Mi'kmaq and Huron, and pretty much everyone else is guessing wrong that it is French , but I have to say some key points of what you are guessing about this family is based on evidence that doesn't appear to actually exist.
But if all that is being claimed is one or two native ancestors who lived back in the 1600's , assuming a substantial part of Simon's family has been in Quebec since 1621, like anyone who's family lived on this continent close to 400 years, he probably has a small percentage of Native descent from very distant indigenous ancestors.
In the link below is the mtDNA results of people with French Canadian ancestry ;
http://www.frenchdna.org/FCmtDNAResults.htm
As you can see about one in 20 of the people who paid to get tested has an indigenous mtDNA.
How i would intepret this is that AT MOST the average French Canadian is about 1/20 of Native descent.
It is probably substantially less than that though, as i suspect the people who pay to get tested are more often people who were adopted or who have some reason to think they are of Native descent . So probably people who pay to get an mtDNA test are more likely to have a native background than the averge person in the general population .
But even if the true general percentage of indigenous mtDNA in the average French Canadian population was much less - like only one in 100 - if you count back to the 1600's most people have about 4000 ancestors , so even if it was on average only one in 500 that would still work out be that an average person with only one parent who was French Canadian would have about 4 Native ancestors way way back there.
So debating complex historical and genealogical facts and whether or not Jean Cote was Mi'kmaq isn't really necesary to guess that Simon, like most French Canadians, almost certainly has at least one or two distant Native ancstors back there somewhere .
Which leads to the next question ;
Do you really believe that someone who descends from one or two Native ancestors who lived 300- 400 years ago or even 200 years ago is a Native person and should have the right to claim and control resources which belong to federally recognized Native communities?
Which leads to the next question.
Are you then saying that all French Canadians should be recognized as Ndn peoples?
And
If you don't believe this, at what point would you decide a person was too distantly descended to be considered an Ndn?
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apparently there is a bit of confusion as to fractions here. the last 1/2 breed (as some may call him) was in my great grandfather, due to a half-breed and a full NDN marrying and having a child, which would still be 1/2, since there is no 3/4ths in blood quantum. Fractions shown are of Native ancestry.
Maybe this will help: 1/16th, 1/8th, 1/4th, 1/2, 1/2 + 1 full
me, mom, grandfather, grt grandfather, grt gfather + grt gmother
Cont.: Great Grandfather's side - father was 1/16, mother 1 full
The last full blood is only 4 generations back, the last 1/2 blood 3 generations back.
So, pretty much, I don't fall short as you clearly say I do, saying 15/16, which pretty much would only give me 1/32 or possibly 1/64, only 1%, when I have more than that. Not even I understand how tribes can take in people of 1/32, when to me the stop point is 1/16th, and after that it's washed out.
My mother and I will always be members of the Alleghenny Lenape, for they are still around. Sammy was NDN, yet was also a crook (not all NDN's are nice and friendly and honest).
A Federally Recognized tribe might be good to get information from for politics and culture, I know many Federally Recognized tribes would push away someone who can prove the geneology due to the idiotic rolls set up by the BIA, because our ancestors never went out to live on a rez. You cannot say that my ancestors were less honorable because they decided to inter-marry and stay on their homeland. True, I feel for those people who went westward, of what they endured, but it doesn't give no Federally Recognized NDN any right to dictate who is and who isn't just from 'ancient' rolls. Even today, those rolls are added to, but the problem is the old rolls needs to just be a reference, not demand that an ancestor has to be on it.
I agree with you on the one part that we must ensure that cultures are saved, and that we should learn from those on the rez., for the cultures are more preserved than the Alleghenny Lenape. I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.
Thank you for your links, though, and some advice.
Eric
Eric i find many of your statement offensive and that you have very little knowledge of tribal people. We decide who belong to our nation. You have to be born on the reservation or one of your parents and grandparents. We never moved westward but stayed on our homelands. The problem come when people who live in the white culture for so long forget how to act and are rude and offensive to Native People.
I am a federally enrolled member of my tribe, my tribe has my enrollment down as 7/8 but due to our enrollment changing to include all Lakota, Dakota and Nakota blood I can now claim my 1/8 Oglala blood.
I truly believe in order to belong to a tribal nation you must be known by them, you must know your relatives, you must be a part of the nation. I was born here on the reservation where I live today. I was born into my nation because my parent, grandparents, great grandparents ect.. were all from my nation. It has nothing to do with rolls because we all know our families going back nine generations and further. It is about family.
When a tribal person meet you we all ask who are you related to what clan/band/or family do you come from, because it is the way to establish a relationship with each other.
So if you came to my home we would ask you your family name, your grandparents name and great grandparents name. Indian country is small so it is easy for us to find out about each other.
I never heard of state recognized until i got on line. I do know about the unrecoginzed tribes but they know who they are just ask and they can tell you who they are along with the families they are related too.
As we say we were Native when it was uncool to be Native today we are still native fighting for our rights to live.
check out some of the fraud people on this site they all claim to be adopted or from some fake tribe they abuse our belief, mix them up or just plains make them up.
what is with this statement?????????
I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.
I have now seen nine different people make that claim that they are the only ones! Don't that tribe talk to each other???
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What makes an Native an Native
It is simple! Their people and their land
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(me)
We do disagree on how to define who is an NDn - and I strongly disagree, but I feel it's best if we stay with the issue .
nighthawk Quote
I can only surmise from what you falsely ascribe to me what your position is.
So I will take a guess, you endorse the colonial government's ability to decide who is and who isn't,
I have no idea where you got that idea. I have repeatedly stated I DON'T endorse non native people defining who is Native.
Where we seem to be getting stuck is this;
If people with some distant Native descent who are mostly non native get together and decide they are Native and most the people in the federally recognized communities who have strongly retained their idenities say they are not Native and they see them as non native people with only a bit of distant heritage , who gets to decide how to define this. The federally recognized Native people who have strongly maintained their culture and heritage , or the people who are mostly non native?
How would you answer this?
Because if you answer one way First Nations retain their soverienty and if you answer another way people who are mostly non native get used as tools to remove this soverinty.
Nighthawk
I am not sure where you got the impression I actually agree with the government on their position that self-declaration, some fake or "creative" genealogy and a rewriting of history, and no real aboriginal blood/ancestry or culture makes an Indian, but I don't agree with it and never have.
It may be I misunderstood you, but it also may be you aren't aware of how you come across, and this might be something you want to consider.
I guess what gave me this impression was that you have written many posts in topics such as Ward Churchill ( who probably had no ancestry but claimed a full identity as a native person based on a very distant ancestor), and the then in the thin blood theard , and all these posts talk about non status ndns and how these people still have a native identitiy which has no been recognized and which the government has worked to obscure. ( i'm sorry i don't have time right now to look up and find exact quotes - this is just the impression I got reading your posts )
I also saw where you repeatedly mentioned Simons very distant Cote ancestors , and your concern has seemed to be that they were being made into the wrong tribe. Not once do i recall you saying your concern was that the government was recognizing such distant descedants as Native peoples.
The article on Dit names that you posted also gives the impression you agree with the slant of the article, which if it was correct would meant most people in Quebec were at least 1/2 of Native descent. However unless there is some impossibly massive conspiracy to cover this up and change Y DNA results, it can be easily proven that almost all the men with Dit names have Y DNA that originated in Europe . Which means the "conspiracy against my people" mentioned in the article is nothing more than a non native or mostly non native person imagining they have a surpress indegenosous identity they don't have.
The fact you are publishing stuff like that does give the impression you support people who may be PODIAs imagining they are surpressed indigenous people .
I did see you do not agree with CAP , but I have often noticed people come here and sound very opposed to some group of PODIAs calling themself a tribe , and then a while later they start sticking up for another group of PODIAs calling themself a tribe, and it becomes apparent that it is really just two groups of PODIAs calling themselves a tribe who have had a falling out, and not tht anyone was actually thinking it was wrong for PODIAS to act like this.
So I have been a bit puzzled about where you stood on this. It wasn't clear if you just didn't like CAP , or if you also don't like PODIAS claiming an indigenous identity when this is not suported by the federally recognized tribes or the majority of traditional leaders / Elders who live in federlly recoginized tribe.
And I say majority because if you shop around there wil always be someone who will agree to anything.
And I'm still not entirely clear on where your loyalties lie ...
Nighthawk
"Canada" is in a state of flux for a number of reasons, lengthy to detail. I doubt many are interested anyway on this list. I can barely keep up with my study on "Canada". But I really don't like the idea that a Euro-Canadian settler with friends in the government can wake up one morning, decide they had an NDN grandmother, and declare themselves to be of whatever Nation, and then gather together with their probably wealthy Euro-Canadian settler neighbours in Ontario "cottage country" and call themselves a First Nation and on top of that get government funding, while real Indigeneous people don't have clean drinking water, live in mouldy houses, and have no access to decent health care, and if they protest these things peacefully have guns pointed at the heads of their women and children. I don't like Indigenous grandmothers being brutalised when they try to visit their children and grandchildren. It sickens and disgusts me.
Yes we agree on that.
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This is all not for me to decide, but the questions are there, and I would like to share just a few thoughts about thin bloods from a first hand perspective.
In the struggle ahead, the peoples are going to need as broad and unified a base of political support as possible.
In the east, there is constant tensions between those who went west voluntarily, those who were forced west, and those who hid out or "passed". Then there are also tensions between those in Canada, those in the US. My opinion, these bad feelings are not good, and reduce the peoples' strength.
Thinbloods? In the east, aside from the inadeqaucies which some feel with some of forms of European religions which have been presented to them, others deal with more severe consequences from Native Ancestry - among those are psychological, health, and financial. These go from generation to generation. Me, I picked up enough blood for diabetes and stroke, but not enough for the casino. My mother's shame at her ancestry has had psychological consequences for her children.
So the descendants try to fill the holes, and then there's always con-men and con-women or confused individuals who will either exploit them or share their confusion. There's got to be what, about 500-700 of these people operating in this industry now here in the US? And how many more in Canada?
As intermarriage occurs what has happened in the east will happen in the west as well, unless measures are taken now to assure that they do not. My suggestion would be for recognized nations to set up what legally would be known as affiliated and/or civic organizations recognized by them, so that there is a mechanism to see that these problems are dealt with, tradition and language are preserved, pride is held, and political strength preserved.
As I said up front, these are clearly not my decisions to make, but just some thoughts from experience. There's going to be a lot of work ahead, and good luck with it.
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I'm sorry you feel that I offended you, but I do have some animosity towards Federally Recognized tribes who use those rolls. MY ancestors never made it west to get recognized on them rolls the BIA set up, and just as you pointed out, you never knew there were even State Recognized tribes out there until you got a computer and internet. I think it offensive when these Federally Recognized tribes push their brother's and sisters away who HAVE done their geneology and DNA (which matches up perfectly) yet these individuals aren't on these rolls, because those who decided to inter-marry made that decision to stay on their tribe's homeland. If you had two choices, either to stay and inter-marry and stay on your ancestors homeland, or go off to no where and possibly die, which would you take?
I know how it is, even before we had done the DNA test. My mother and I tried to apply to some Federally Recognized tribes, yet we were pushed away like scum. I know how the minds of many Fed. Tribes think, in the offices and out.
And you made a contradiction yourself. You say your tribe decides who belongs to your nation...yet you say you have to be born on the rez or have been on the rolls of that tribe. I even was told by a Winnebago Elder that some Sioux people adopt - when I called a few bands, they didn't.
Congrats you were born on a rez, that you were raised in your culture and religion, but it appears to me that many who live on a rez has no sympathy for anyone who were scattered in the past, and those individuals just found out the hard way of who they are. Us back east cannot help that our culture is scattered and much of it is lost. When I mentioned that I'm the only one in the Alleghenny Lenape to speak Lenape, it was made in a broad aspect. There could be a few out there teaching themselves like I am, but I don't know. That's what happens when members are not grouped onto just one land, you don't get to know every single member.
My animosity towards Federally Recognized tribes grows for many are even more rude to those who knows their geneology, is WILLING to be a part of a tribe to help out, but these people who live on rez's are narrow-minded in my view for they DON'T want to unite, they DON'T want to have their tribe grow. I'll always have animosity when Federally Recognized tribes think they are superior to any one else. Sure, even I hate wannabes, but a person isn't a wannabe when they know who they are descended from, and are willing to learn and become a part of a community.
Being NDN isn't glamourous, I know that. It's a poor life - but it can't be any worse than what my mother and I have already been through. We would give up what we have now for even a poorer situation just to reunite my family back with the tribe they belong to, to get to learn what was lost within my family.
No, Federally Recognized tribes needs to drop the old rolls from the rules of membership. They can demand a full geneology and DNA, which would have to match perfectly. They can still do blood quantum if they want. Just keep the old rolls as a documentation for those who are doing their geneology, not make it madatory that their ancestor HAS to be on it.
I swear, Alaskan Natives are more lenient than people on Rez's. Did you know that you can be adopted in a Alaskan tribe, as long as you have Native American blood and live in their village and they'd adopt you? It's not because they're desperate, it's because they believe that we're all related in some way or form. But my mother isn't willing to pack up and go up to Alaska, too cold as she told me.
The only thing that is needed is for the Federally Recognized tribes to stop turning away those who knows their family (geneology), even if they're not on a roll. As my mother says, it's the ONLY way to unite in some way or form, so the culture CAN live on.
Eric
apparently there is a bit of confusion as to fractions here. the last 1/2 breed (as some may call him) was in my great grandfather, due to a half-breed and a full NDN marrying and having a child, which would still be 1/2, since there is no 3/4ths in blood quantum. Fractions shown are of Native ancestry.
Maybe this will help: 1/16th, 1/8th, 1/4th, 1/2, 1/2 + 1 full
me, mom, grandfather, grt grandfather, grt gfather + grt gmother
Cont.: Great Grandfather's side - father was 1/16, mother 1 full
The last full blood is only 4 generations back, the last 1/2 blood 3 generations back.
So, pretty much, I don't fall short as you clearly say I do, saying 15/16, which pretty much would only give me 1/32 or possibly 1/64, only 1%, when I have more than that. Not even I understand how tribes can take in people of 1/32, when to me the stop point is 1/16th, and after that it's washed out.
My mother and I will always be members of the Alleghenny Lenape, for they are still around. Sammy was NDN, yet was also a crook (not all NDN's are nice and friendly and honest).
A Federally Recognized tribe might be good to get information from for politics and culture, I know many Federally Recognized tribes would push away someone who can prove the geneology due to the idiotic rolls set up by the BIA, because our ancestors never went out to live on a rez. You cannot say that my ancestors were less honorable because they decided to inter-marry and stay on their homeland. True, I feel for those people who went westward, of what they endured, but it doesn't give no Federally Recognized NDN any right to dictate who is and who isn't just from 'ancient' rolls. Even today, those rolls are added to, but the problem is the old rolls needs to just be a reference, not demand that an ancestor has to be on it.
I agree with you on the one part that we must ensure that cultures are saved, and that we should learn from those on the rez., for the cultures are more preserved than the Alleghenny Lenape. I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.
Thank you for your links, though, and some advice.
Eric
Eric i find many of your statement offensive and that you have very little knowledge of tribal people. We decide who belong to our nation. You have to be born on the reservation or one of your parents and grandparents. We never moved westward but stayed on our homelands. The problem come when people who live in the white culture for so long forget how to act and are rude and offensive to Native People.
I am a federally enrolled member of my tribe, my tribe has my enrollment down as 7/8 but due to our enrollment changing to include all Lakota, Dakota and Nakota blood I can now claim my 1/8 Oglala blood.
I truly believe in order to belong to a tribal nation you must be known by them, you must know your relatives, you must be a part of the nation. I was born here on the reservation where I live today. I was born into my nation because my parent, grandparents, great grandparents ect.. were all from my nation. It has nothing to do with rolls because we all know our families going back nine generations and further. It is about family.
When a tribal person meet you we all ask who are you related to what clan/band/or family do you come from, because it is the way to establish a relationship with each other.
So if you came to my home we would ask you your family name, your grandparents name and great grandparents name. Indian country is small so it is easy for us to find out about each other.
I never heard of state recognized until i got on line. I do know about the unrecoginzed tribes but they know who they are just ask and they can tell you who they are along with the families they are related too.
As we say we were Native when it was uncool to be Native today we are still native fighting for our rights to live.
check out some of the fraud people on this site they all claim to be adopted or from some fake tribe they abuse our belief, mix them up or just plains make them up.
what is with this statement?????????
I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.
I have now seen nine different people make that claim that they are the only ones! Don't that tribe talk to each other???
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Eric, I think you are missing the entire point. First, a Nation has the right to choose how it enrolls it members. Some use BQ, some do not. most all use the Final Rolls. Second, adoption when it occurs is to a family. Your obligation then is to that family. Rarely, do the Nations adopt, but it has occurred. So in general, being adopted does not necessarily make you a member of that Nation. Recuriting members off the Internet doesn't make a "Tribe". States that have a recognition process usually date it to the 1700's. Some because of Removal date it to the late 1800 or even 1900. It takes generations living in the same community with a ongoing political and cultural structure to constitute a "Tribe". There are many now that meet the requirements but do not have recognition, as it takes 20 or 30 years to even get recognized. Plus, they are all the SAME heritage, not a mixture of several different heritages. I cannot find that Ohio has any criteria for State Recognition. They have a Resolution that means little more than being Ceremonial. There are already many fake Lenape', Shawnee, Cherokee groups out there. Al gave you some advice, why don't you follow that?
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First, thank you for that bit of information. I will admit that I shouldn't judge all Federally Recognized tribes just because of a few bad times I had with them, and you pointed that out clearly.
But most NDN's today are of mixed blood, including on the rez's. So, what makes those people so important and not my mother and I? Because they married into the tribe? Because they were on the rolls? I still say that those tribes shouldn't go by Final Rolls as a part of membership, but as a reference for geneology. It's still a slap to those who actually did their geneology, tracing it to a certain tribe, and those people not being able to get in. I could see it in my head that some 1/8th guy who is federally recognized who might be doing membership laughing at someone of equal BQ and tossing those papers away because his/her ancestors aren't on the Final Rolls. It's rules like that that frustrates and eventually forces those east here to go with some unrecognized tribe or State Recognized tribe. Those who have no tribe (community) in their area are even more forced to form one of their own. That's where people like on here wants to put down this tribe and that tribe, saying they're fake and fraud, when in truth that tribe/community was formed due to being forced together for a common goal.
BTW...who's AL? I only know people by their SN on here.
But, as I pretty much said, but will clarify, you cannot say these federally recognized people on the rez are of the same heritage, for they're mixed. If they were of the same heritage, then they all would be full blooded and nothing else (or inbred). On top of that, you have those of OTHER tribal blood being adopted by a nation and/or family, in the past to now. So, technically, they are NOT of the same heritage.
For example, my mother and I were adopted into the Alleghenny Lenape 5 years ago, not because of any Lenape we would have in us (because we have no Lenape), but because of our Shawnee ancestry, for the Lenape are the Grandfather tribe to the Shawnee. That makes us Lenape by adoption, though Caucasian/Athabaskan/Shawnee/Cree by blood. I also know that when you ARE adopted by a tribe, you must drop any affiliation with any other tribe/nation.
Eric
Eric, I think you are missing the entire point. First, a Nation has the right to choose how it enrolls it members. Some use BQ, some do not. most all use the Final Rolls. Second, adoption when it occurs is to a family. Your obligation then is to that family. Rarely, do the Nations adopt, but it has occurred. So in general, being adopted does not necessarily make you a member of that Nation. Recuriting members off the Internet doesn't make a "Tribe". States that have a recognition process usually date it to the 1700's. Some because of Removal date it to the late 1800 or even 1900. It takes generations living in the same community with a ongoing political and cultural structure to constitute a "Tribe". There are many now that meet the requirements but do not have recognition, as it takes 20 or 30 years to even get recognized. Plus, they are all the SAME heritage, not a mixture of several different heritages. I cannot find that Ohio has any criteria for State Recognition. They have a Resolution that means little more than being Ceremonial. There are already many fake Lenape', Shawnee, Cherokee groups out there. Al gave you some advice, why don't you follow that?
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Al is EducateIndian. Sorry you are stuck in a rut. But you need to face the facts. An Indian Center is not a "Tribe". And that is how they applied for Federal Recognition. So that's about all I have to say.
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Please read the update in the appropriate post. I told everyone that the state recognition was only for the year 1999-2000, and on top of that after Sammy disappeared in 2007, so technically there is no Alleghenny Indian Center anymore. There is only the Alleghenny Lenape. When there are enough members, and the criteria fulfilled, the Alleghenny Lenape will be putting in as the Alleghenny Lenape, not no Indian center.
I also posted a link to the new website that I posted so former members and those who were dumped by Sammy would come back, knowing that the Alleghenny Lenape are still around. The website isn't put up for people half way across Turtle Island can come and join (unless they WANT to move to Ohio). I'm not sure if you were the one who visited there close to 3p or not this afternoon, spending approx. 1m 50 sec's there. If it was you, thanks for visiting - gave me a chance to check on all who comes to the website.
Eric
Al is EducateIndian. Sorry you are stuck in a rut. But you need to face the facts. An Indian Center is not a "Tribe". And that is how they applied for Federal Recognition. So that's about all I have to say.
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First, thank you for that bit of information. I will admit that I shouldn't judge all Federally Recognized tribes just because of a few bad times I had with them, and you pointed that out clearly.
But most NDN's today are of mixed blood, including on the rez's. So, what makes those people so important and not my mother and I? Because they married into the tribe? Because they were on the rolls? I still say that those tribes shouldn't go by Final Rolls as a part of membership, but as a reference for geneology. It's still a slap to those who actually did their geneology, tracing it to a certain tribe, and those people not being able to get in. I could see it in my head that some 1/8th guy who is federally recognized who might be doing membership laughing at someone of equal BQ and tossing those papers away because his/her ancestors aren't on the Final Rolls. It's rules like that that frustrates and eventually forces those east here to go with some unrecognized tribe or State Recognized tribe. Those who have no tribe (community) in their area are even more forced to form one of their own. That's where people like on here wants to put down this tribe and that tribe, saying they're fake and fraud, when in truth that tribe/community was formed due to being forced together for a common goal.
BTW...who's AL? I only know people by their SN on here.
But, as I pretty much said, but will clarify, you cannot say these federally recognized people on the rez are of the same heritage, for they're mixed. If they were of the same heritage, then they all would be full blooded and nothing else (or inbred). On top of that, you have those of OTHER tribal blood being adopted by a nation and/or family, in the past to now. So, technically, they are NOT of the same heritage.
For example, my mother and I were adopted into the Alleghenny Lenape 5 years ago, not because of any Lenape we would have in us (because we have no Lenape), but because of our Shawnee ancestry, for the Lenape are the Grandfather tribe to the Shawnee. That makes us Lenape by adoption, though Caucasian/Athabaskan/Shawnee/Cree by blood. I also know that when you ARE adopted by a tribe, you must drop any affiliation with any other tribe/nation.
Eric
Eric, I think you are missing the entire point. First, a Nation has the right to choose how it enrolls it members. Some use BQ, some do not. most all use the Final Rolls. Second, adoption when it occurs is to a family. Your obligation then is to that family. Rarely, do the Nations adopt, but it has occurred. So in general, being adopted does not necessarily make you a member of that Nation. Recuriting members off the Internet doesn't make a "Tribe". States that have a recognition process usually date it to the 1700's. Some because of Removal date it to the late 1800 or even 1900. It takes generations living in the same community with a ongoing political and cultural structure to constitute a "Tribe". There are many now that meet the requirements but do not have recognition, as it takes 20 or 30 years to even get recognized. Plus, they are all the SAME heritage, not a mixture of several different heritages. I cannot find that Ohio has any criteria for State Recognition. They have a Resolution that means little more than being Ceremonial. There are already many fake Lenape', Shawnee, Cherokee groups out there. Al gave you some advice, why don't you follow that?
I guess for i have problems with your issues because it sounds like your talking about those cherokees or the Oklahoma tribes?? I think that there is only a couple of reservation in Oklahoma but many nations.
I still don't understand why you are talikng about genealogy???
My people have had contact since 1870s so that is about 138 years. We know our families and we are all mixed bloods.
There are no state recoginzed tribes in my area and no tribes that have been removed from their homelands. We are the largest land bases tribes in america under the Dine who own the most land. i can show where my great great great great great grandfather is buried. My family have lived on this land for thousands of years.
My point is each tribe is different, each tribe has different rule for their nations, each tribe enrolls their members a different way, My tribe we have to 1/4, some tribe you have to be from the mother side or other from the father's side, some use linearl descendant, some use blood of other tribes, some do not, some use a thing called the Dawes rolls, some use the census records. the whole point is each nation has a right to determine who belongs to their nation.
If the nation does not accept you! you don't belong nothing you do will change that including creating your own nation.
as we ask people
what nation claims you
what are your elders name
who are you relatived to
for a native person whose question are easy.
Being native is not hobby by our lives
If a person believe he or she is native then just give up everything move to the rez find an elder to teach you and learn about who you are. You can learn nothing from book or learn from an adopted tribes which is not your own.
The problem we see is this pan indianism where people mix up the beliefs and people just get confused.
It is funny to watch a person from the east used lakota word to be indian.
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But most NDN's today are of mixed blood, including on the rez's. So, what makes those people so important and not my mother and I? Because they married into the tribe? Because they were on the rolls? I still say that those tribes shouldn't go by Final Rolls as a part of membership, but as a reference for geneology. It's still a slap to those who actually did their geneology, tracing it to a certain tribe, and those people not being able to get in. I could see it in my head that some 1/8th guy who is federally recognized who might be doing membership laughing at someone of equal BQ and tossing those papers away because his/her ancestors aren't on the Final Rolls. It's rules like that that frustrates and eventually forces those east here to go with some unrecognized tribe or State Recognized tribe. Those who have no tribe (community) in their area are even more forced to form one of their own. That's where people like on here wants to put down this tribe and that tribe, saying they're fake and fraud, when in truth that tribe/community was formed due to being forced together for a common goal.
Eric
I guess I'm a little curious... why is it SO important for you to be "recognized"? What are you hoping to gain by becoming "enrolled"? I'm not asking this to be rude, I sincerely want to know what the motivation is. There are many NDNs that for whatever reason are unable to enroll (as Earth said, the criteria is different for different tribes... it could be that they are NDN from their mom's side, but that particular tribe bases enrollment by the Father's side). It may be frustrating or disappointing to them, but it doesn't "force" them to go out and create a new tribe. If they know their family, and their family's family, that is usually enough. Please don't view this as an attack of any kind, it's just that the level of insistance is puzzling.
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Well, this has gone from simple questions, to people doubting who I am, to geneology, to just being frustrated.
I'm not seeing this as an attack, since apparently my mother and I's intentions of why we want to be recognized as who we are: NDN, was overlooked in several other posts.
My own family has kept the secret of being NDN for a long time...3 generations back from my mom, 4 from me. It took 5 years ago for us to actually find out, even though we are still unclear as to clans, etc. If there is any record of this, it's in the famly bible, hidden away from everyone by a cousin of my mother's, trying to keep the secret still.
My mother and I would see it as an accomplishment to our ancestors for reuniting our famliy with the tribe they belonged to. It would ease my mother's nerves - she doesn't even have much time to live anyway - 2 years max due to cancer. This has been a battle for us all this time, trying to be recognized, by the tribe our blood is of. Sure, we might be a bit ridiculed because of the white in us, but at least we (my mother and I) would have closed the circle that has been left open for so long. So, you see, knowing is one thing, but re-establishing our family link with the tribe is a whole other story.
And when I marry (and I have my own eyes on the look out), and have children, I want my children to know their heritage, like what my mother and I would learn when we become enrolled. If my mother and I was enrolled, for example, right now, and one of the requirements was to move to the rez or town, we would move. I'd drop what college I have been doing here and move with my mother westward.
That's my answer to your questions. And what irks me so much is people like Barnaby and Mama-Porcupine who swears I am just white, and doesn't want to recognize the NDN part of me. I was taught that you had to either be white, or be NDN...even told this by an elder I spoke to down in Cherokee, NC (and to me, any grayhair is an elder). So I chose to be NDN.
Eric
But most NDN's today are of mixed blood, including on the rez's. So, what makes those people so important and not my mother and I? Because they married into the tribe? Because they were on the rolls? I still say that those tribes shouldn't go by Final Rolls as a part of membership, but as a reference for geneology. It's still a slap to those who actually did their geneology, tracing it to a certain tribe, and those people not being able to get in. I could see it in my head that some 1/8th guy who is federally recognized who might be doing membership laughing at someone of equal BQ and tossing those papers away because his/her ancestors aren't on the Final Rolls. It's rules like that that frustrates and eventually forces those east here to go with some unrecognized tribe or State Recognized tribe. Those who have no tribe (community) in their area are even more forced to form one of their own. That's where people like on here wants to put down this tribe and that tribe, saying they're fake and fraud, when in truth that tribe/community was formed due to being forced together for a common goal.
Eric
I guess I'm a little curious... why is it SO important for you to be "recognized"? What are you hoping to gain by becoming "enrolled"? I'm not asking this to be rude, I sincerely want to know what the motivation is. There are many NDNs that for whatever reason are unable to enroll (as Earth said, the criteria is different for different tribes... it could be that they are NDN from their mom's side, but that particular tribe bases enrollment by the Father's side). It may be frustrating or disappointing to them, but it doesn't "force" them to go out and create a new tribe. If they know their family, and their family's family, that is usually enough. Please don't view this as an attack of any kind, it's just that the level of insistance is puzzling.
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SO HERE ARE YOUR QUESTION.
Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, WHY WOULD YOU EXCLUDING US?
which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes,
how can you tell which one is legitiment or not?
WE CAN TELL BY THEIR HISTORY, CULTURE, LANGUAGE AND THEIR RELATIVES
Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real?
YES I CAN!
Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member
NO TRIBES CHARGE A FEE ONLY FAKES OR CLUBS
(even I don't believe in charging a fee).
Also, it brings me to the next question:
Who all on here are Federally Recognized?
ME! ME! ME!
State Recognized, or not even recognized at all?
DON'T KNOW ANY STATE RECOGINZED NATIVE
I DO KNOW UNRECOGNIZED WHO ARE NATIVE BY THEIR CULTURE/LANGUAGE AND LAND.
Who are just plain 'white men'?
(note: I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)
If you're unrecognized,
NOT ME I KNOW WHO IAM
how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band?
WHO ARE YOU TALKING TOO?
Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing.
AS LONG AS THEY KNOW THEIR/HISTORY/CULTURE/LANGUAGE AND LAND NOT SOMETHING THE READ IN A BOOK
As to State Recognized tribes,
unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them.
It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "CASH" YOU HAVE PAY THAT SOUND CROOKED
Which here's the follow up question:
Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership?
WHAT? I WAS BORN A MEMBER OF MY TRIBE!!!! WHY WOULD I BE TURNED DOWN?
MY FAMILY HAS ALWAYS BEEN HERE.
For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - BUT THIS IS A FAKE TRIBE
Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition.
The Shawnee URB ANOTHER FAKE TRIBE OL POPE AND DARK RAIN
didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat).
WHAT?? KIND OF GROUP ASK THAT? ANOTHER FAKE TRIBE
If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.
I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized.
Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here.
UNLESS YOU ARE LAKOTA AND HAVE 1/4 BLOOD AND PARENT OR GRANDPARENT WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE TRIBE THE ANSER IS NO YOU CAN'T BE A MEMBER
I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage.
WHAT!! WHY DO A TEST JUST ASK YOUR GRANDPARENTS, WE DON'T DO TEST WE ARE JUST WHO WE ARE YOU CAN TELL BY OUR SKIN COLOR.
But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes.
EACH TRIBE HAS THEIR OWN RULES FOR MEMBERSHIP
I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer.
mY FAMILY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN THE WEST AND NEVER SUFFERED WE SURVIVE
They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland. If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up. WHAT THERE IS NO WHITE BLOOD HERE
So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition. WHY IF THE TRIBE DON'T RECOGIZE YOU YOU ARE NOT NATIVE.
Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized.
WE NEVER APPLIED FOR RECOGNIATION OUR CAME FROM THE TREATY
If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few.
For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.
I SERIOUS DOUBT THAT, THESE ARE FRAUDS
I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them. It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.
Eric
SO ERIC I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION
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Well, good for you that you're Dine of the Southwest, that your tribe suffers little and that every day isn't a struggle to learn your heritage, your language, your ceremonies, and that you can still talk to your grandparents and possibly great grandparents, that you know where your great great great grandparents are buried, and is very successful with selling crafts that are way out of price range of a normal working person to buy.
I wasn't directing my latest comment to you, I was gonna pretty much accept what you typed and let it go, to be respectful although every single comment you made to me was inflamed with anger and most likely the word 'wannabe' going through your head.
I cannot talk to my grandparents, they all are dead...unless you are stating that you can speak to the dead and are offering your services? I'd love to speak with my great great grandparents and on back, to find out first hand my family, language and culture. Don't be so hyped up that YOU think you know everything. I even know a Cheyenne living in Lame Deer, Montana, who has to learn his Cheyenne culture, language, etc, out of a book, and from what he told me there's plenty of elders around to ask first hand.
I'm SURE there's some white blood there somewhere, especially if my mother's cousin did marry a Dine woman before I was born, but they couldn't have any children. So, don't say your tribe has no white blood, it's there.
But, I did get you to admit your discrimination towards anyone who isn't recognized federally. There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized. It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there). There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in. That's one point I've been trying to make. If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.
To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered, and I won't judge you by your tribe/nation. I still have deep respect for your tribe/nation, for I know people are different all over...but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from...and that goes for anyone that has some sense.
Eric
SO HERE ARE YOUR QUESTION.
Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, WHY WOULD YOU EXCLUDING US?
which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes,
how can you tell which one is legitiment or not?
WE CAN TELL BY THEIR HISTORY, CULTURE, LANGUAGE AND THEIR RELATIVES
Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real?
YES I CAN!
Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member
NO TRIBES CHARGE A FEE ONLY FAKES OR CLUBS
(even I don't believe in charging a fee).
Also, it brings me to the next question:
Who all on here are Federally Recognized?
ME! ME! ME!
State Recognized, or not even recognized at all?
DON'T KNOW ANY STATE RECOGINZED NATIVE
I DO KNOW UNRECOGNIZED WHO ARE NATIVE BY THEIR CULTURE/LANGUAGE AND LAND.
Who are just plain 'white men'?
(note: I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)
If you're unrecognized,
NOT ME I KNOW WHO IAM
how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band?
WHO ARE YOU TALKING TOO?
Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing.
AS LONG AS THEY KNOW THEIR/HISTORY/CULTURE/LANGUAGE AND LAND NOT SOMETHING THE READ IN A BOOK
As to State Recognized tribes,
unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them.
It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "CASH" YOU HAVE PAY THAT SOUND CROOKED
Which here's the follow up question:
Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership?
WHAT? I WAS BORN A MEMBER OF MY TRIBE!!!! WHY WOULD I BE TURNED DOWN?
MY FAMILY HAS ALWAYS BEEN HERE.
For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - BUT THIS IS A FAKE TRIBE
Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition.
The Shawnee URB ANOTHER FAKE TRIBE OL POPE AND DARK RAIN
didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat).
WHAT?? KIND OF GROUP ASK THAT? ANOTHER FAKE TRIBE
If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.
I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized.
Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here.
UNLESS YOU ARE LAKOTA AND HAVE 1/4 BLOOD AND PARENT OR GRANDPARENT WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE TRIBE THE ANSER IS NO YOU CAN'T BE A MEMBER
I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage.
WHAT!! WHY DO A TEST JUST ASK YOUR GRANDPARENTS, WE DON'T DO TEST WE ARE JUST WHO WE ARE YOU CAN TELL BY OUR SKIN COLOR.
But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes.
EACH TRIBE HAS THEIR OWN RULES FOR MEMBERSHIP
I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer.
mY FAMILY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN THE WEST AND NEVER SUFFERED WE SURVIVE
They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland. If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up. WHAT THERE IS NO WHITE BLOOD HERE
So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition. WHY IF THE TRIBE DON'T RECOGIZE YOU YOU ARE NOT NATIVE.
Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized.
WE NEVER APPLIED FOR RECOGNIATION OUR CAME FROM THE TREATY
If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few.
For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.
I SERIOUS DOUBT THAT, THESE ARE FRAUDS
I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them. It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.
Eric
SO ERIC I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION
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Well, good for you that you're Dine of the Southwest, that your tribe suffers little and that every day isn't a struggle to learn your heritage, your language, your ceremonies, and that you can still talk to your grandparents and possibly great grandparents, that you know where your great great great grandparents are buried, and is very successful with selling crafts that are way out of price range of a normal working person to buy.
I wasn't directing my latest comment to you, I was gonna pretty much accept what you typed and let it go, to be respectful although every single comment you made to me was inflamed with anger and most likely the word 'wannabe' going through your head.
I cannot talk to my grandparents, they all are dead...unless you are stating that you can speak to the dead and are offering your services? I'd love to speak with my great great grandparents and on back, to find out first hand my family, language and culture. Don't be so hyped up that YOU think you know everything. I even know a Cheyenne living in Lame Deer, Montana, who has to learn his Cheyenne culture, language, etc, out of a book, and from what he told me there's plenty of elders around to ask first hand.
I'm SURE there's some white blood there somewhere, especially if my mother's cousin did marry a Dine woman before I was born, but they couldn't have any children. So, don't say your tribe has no white blood, it's there.
But, I did get you to admit your discrimination towards anyone who isn't recognized federally. There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized. It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there). There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in. That's one point I've been trying to make. If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.
To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered, and I won't judge you by your tribe/nation. I still have deep respect for your tribe/nation, for I know people are different all over...but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from...and that goes for anyone that has some sense.
Eric
Who are you talking Too????
I am not Dine!!!
I am Lakota from the northern Plain in fact North Dakota.
I am sorry the Cheyenne must learn from a book who wrote the book?
I don't know everything but i know my people and my culture
I don't have no Dine in my family at all
I don't have white blood either, I am 7/8 Hunkpapa/Blackfeet and 1/8 oglala
If you can read I said i have friend who are unrecogized but they know their culture/language and land.
They are native.
your statement:
It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there).
confusing statement what does the Dine have to do with the Lakota?? I know know their history only my people.
your statement
There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in
which tribes? What does genealogy have to do with enrollment of a nation?
your statement
If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.
what are you talking about my nation is the fastest growing population in our state. over 50% of our people are under the age of 18 years old and all members of the tribe.
what trouble has i caused i answered your question like you asked
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Eric
Well, this has gone from simple questions, to people doubting who I am, to geneology, to just being frustrated
Eric, these aren't simple questions and they aren't all about you and your Mother. Look At the title of this thread . Whatever the answers are, they have to be practical to fairly apply to everyone, such as all your cousins and everyone of the same description.
Eric
It would ease my mother's nerves - she doesn't even have much time to live anyway - 2 years max due to cancer. This has been a battle for us all this time, trying to be recognized, by the tribe our blood is of.
The way you are going about it is most likely to alienate you completely. Why - because you come across like you think that however this is defined it should be all about you and what you want, not the bigger picture, or what is needed to retain the long term health of tribe and culture.
Eric
And when I marry (and I have my own eyes on the look out), and have children, I want my children to know their heritage, like what my mother and I would learn when we become enrolled
I think MatoSiWin asked you a really good question. Why do you feel you need to be enrolled in a tribe?
You already are a citizen of a Nation which has many members with similar blood lines to yourself - and with each generation of more intermarriages there will be more. It's caled the tribe of the USA.
If you don't like how your tribe is conducting itself , do something about it from within. Looking to be enrolled in tribe that pretends your prominantely non native heritage doesn't exist just seems you are searching for other people who will support you in your denial. You don't need t be enrolled in any tribe to practice and encourage traditional morals and values and an indigenous sense of responsibility .
Those specific protected sensitve cultral traditions you say you want to practice almost always loose their meaning outside the context of a deeply rooted contiunously existing tradition which is practiced and known by the whole community . Why not find strength and joy from leaving them where they belong , and knowing they are still being practiced in a good way? It seems non native people with their strong emphasis on the importance of the individual always think what is most important is that they personally have the opprotunity to be in whatever role they choose, but if you were more in touch with real Native cultures and not just your fantasy of it, you would know there is many roles within a native society which are only performed by selected people within that society, and not everyone who is enrolled in a nation can do whatever they like with that Nations culture and ceremonies.
But you mentioned wanting government funding- and I suppose these suggestions would not satisfy that .
IMO Your children would have a lot better chance of knowing a bit of their REAL heritage if you could be more realistic and respectful of the limitations that come with having a mostly non native background.
The way you talk you sound like that nightmare house guest that was welcome to stay 3 days and stays 3 months and you have to get the police to evict them. You sure wouldn't get invited to visit again ...
If you discovered you had a gr gr grandmother who came from Africa would you be obbessing about how you had wrongly been denied the right to be a citizen of a country in Africa?
For that matter a lot of your European ancestors were wrongly forced out of their homelands. Why don't you feel ripped off that you aren't eligible for English socal programs ? Your way of selecting just what you want from your own background and stringing it together into a story of entitlements seems really dishonest.
Eric
And what irks me so much is people like Barnaby and Mama-Porcupine who swears I am just white, and doesn't want to recognize the NDN part of me.
I never said that. I said you are 15/16 non native - and your family also has had a long immersion in a non native cultural background. I just pointed out you seem to be desparate to deny the vaste majority of your heritage
Eric
I was taught that you had to either be white, or be NDN...even told this by an elder I spoke to down in Cherokee, NC
I think thats true in a way. Kind of like that bible parable about a rich man not being able to enter the kingdom of heaven any easier than a camel can pass through the eye of a needle.
Native ways of thinking tend to be about the community and past and future generations, and are therefore too big to fit into non native ways of thinking which tends to be more about acheiving short term individual satisfaction. So people can't hold both world views at once.
But in another way I don't think it's true that people are either native or nonnative . For example the Metis people are truely a mix of both. There are many people who have real influences from both cultures and world veiws and are niether purely European or purely Ndn - and I think you are one of them . Some of these people manage to integrate this and do something with it to make the world a better place. You could be one of those , but you need to start putting the long term health and survival of the culture and true cultural values ahead of your individual fanatsies and desires.
Why not work to reform the colonial European culture from within, into a culture that is more respectful of indigenous values? Why not adopt a long term goal to preserve these basic traditional values , morals and responsibilities , so that in over the next 400 years the influence of increasing mixing might lead to an improved American society ? Why not work to protect indigenous communities so they continue to have enough control of theior own cultures and resources to maintain a strong and vibrant culture.
I don't mean I think the best way to do this is by everyone wanting to directly paticipate in indigenous cultures. Or worse do shallow imitations of ceremonies - Sometimes the best support is just by learning and teaching others to stay out of the way.
We all benifit from making sure indigenous peoples have what they need to maintain their cultures, and the knowledge and values of these cultures does have extremely positive influences on everyone it touches - often in very ordinary day to day transactions.
Eric
There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized
.
It's a bit creepy the way you keep thinking it is all about blood even a very tiny amount of it- and you put so little importance on people living in a community which has retained it's family relationships , Native identity and culture.
When you repeatedly put so much emphasis on blood , it's like you are turning being an Ndn into a commodity like having a bottle of fine wine, or a gold ring.
Eric
To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered
No Eric, it is you who is sounding very self centered.
Eric
but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from
I know you don't see this , but what you are saying is that Native people who have strongly retained theur culture and identity are trouble makers because they interfer with you redefining what an Ndn is to include predominantely non native people such as yourself. Your lack of respect for Native peoples authority to define themselves and their own people and communities , once again sounds like the way nonnative people think about things. You sound like yo are dismissing Ndns as non people or incompetant to control their own resources - which you have decided you want.
Your world veiw has repeatedly come across sounds as very self centered and non native to me.
This being the case, I really think you should look into some of the wrongs done to your European ancestors and see what sort of reimbursments or repatriations you might be entitled to on the basis of that part of your families heritage. Such claims would be a lot more realistic .
About the only thing I agree with you on is that many families who moved to a distant place don't recall much about grandparents and greatgrandparents, and unless everybody has stayed in the same community it can take an effort to learn about your family background. It's true some families hid their Native ancestry - but I honestly think that for every family that did this all the nieghbors gossiped and the nieghborhood children who heard bits of hushed stories often mistakenly passed these on as stories, but telling them as if the Ndn grandma was their own.
What Earth is saying is real. If you don't know your Ndn relatives and grandparents you aren't Ndn . You may have some mixed blood and even some sensitivity so some parts of Native ways , but this just makes you a non native person with some Native influences. Who we are is much more about the communities we live in and the relationships we have, than being an individual in possesion of something- whether that is fine wine, gold or a tiny bit of ndn blood .
Just my opinion , but I hope this helps you get a bit of perspective and to understand what is being said here.
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Ok..I think I see what your going for Eric. However, you do seem to miss the point of people's posts. There's really good info in there, but you're not seeing it. This post is written with the idea of respect towards you Eric, but there's some things you're gonna read here you probably won't like....the words aren't meant to attack you....i'm just being brutally honest so there's no confusion. The major points will be written in all caps so if you miss anything in the post you can go back and check the parts written in all CAPS so that you can see the major points easily.
I'll just say this. The route your choosing to be recognized as NDN is wrong. You'll NEVER get what you want out of it. You're trying to be "recognized" as "NDN" by sidestepping government laws and regulations, but the point your missing is THERE'S NO LAW THAT CAN "MAKE" YOU NDN.
It all starts with family, then community, then tribe/nation. I hate to burst your bubble, but in your particular situation you're not gonna get any piece of paper that's gonna be your "proof of authenticity." It's just not gonna happen.
In your situation with the Alleghenny Lenape...the tribe you joined is not a tribe. It's a fraudulent organization run formerly by a fraudulent chief. Your weren't adopted...you paid your way in...in short.....YOU AND YOUR MOM GOT SCAMMED BY THE KINDS OF FRAUDS THIS BOARD FIGHTS TO STOP.
I feel for you....I can imagine it's a terrible feeling to be sucked in by these types...they tell you everything you want to hear to make you feel like you belong...then they take your money and time and leave you with nothing. You said yourself that your mom was desperate to belong and be recognized by a tribe and that's why you became part of them. THAT DESPERATION IS JUST WHAT THESE FRAUDULENT TRIBES PREY UPON.
I don't doubt that the Alleghenny Lenape existed in Ohio...I don't doubt that the descendants still exist there. I believe you ....but somewhere along the line they gave up their community, their land, and their self-governance. What's left are remnants.
When it comes to Federal Recognition some of the MAJOR criteria that has to be met before they even CONSIDER the application are: 1) The existence of a continuous community considered to be Allegheny Lenape from the time Ohio came into existence, 2) A land base occupied by the Allegheny Lenape through that time, and 3) A form of goverment practiced by the Allegeny Lenape in continuity.
All 3 of these major criteria simply disappeared for the Allegheny Lenape somewhere along the line. For whatever reasons they gave up their community and their right to govern themselves and once that's gone....there's no possible way for them to EVER get Federal Recognition.
It seems you've been taught that the road to Federal Recognition lies in State Recognition. That's completely false. YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE STATE RECOGNITION FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION. That fantasy was most likely fed to you by the fraudulent chief who ran off with all the money or people that were taught by him. That's what fraudulent tribes do. They prey on your desperation and the LACK OF COMMON KNOWLEDGE about Federal Indian laws. They keep their money making machine going off the backs of people like you and your mom and just before the money dries up....they take off....
In fact, I'd make a strong guess that your fraudulent chief KNEW that he was never gonna be considered a real tribe......but he had to give you something to work for....a mission in your life so that you'd keep following him and give up your time and money working for him.
So....with all honesty.....for your own sake and sanity as well as your sick mother....quit following the fantasy given to you by a fraud. You're a victim of a scam....don't become the perpetrator of that same scam.
I'm not saying all this to destroy your spirit or your pride in your heritage. I'm only being honest with you. If you really want to honor your heritage then it goes just like I said before.....through family, then community, then tribe/nation. Enrollment doesn't make you Indian...how you live your life does. But as we've all been saying...you've got a lot to learn....you've not really pinned down for yourself where your heritage really comes from. Start there....when that's figured out go and visit the existing communities that exist. You may have relatives there....be honest about your story....let people know that your family has denied your heritage through several generations and when you and your mom learned of it you wanted to reconnect. It may even mean moving closer or into that community (and i'm talking a community that has existed in continuity....not one that just popped up like the URB). Learn the language....that's probably the most important. If you work hard enough with a good spirit, community members will recognize that and help you....they may take you into their extended family to ensure you stay on a good path.....just realize.....just about every Indian community has been burned by taking in outsiders who stick around...learn a few things and take it and leave and begin their own fraudulent tribe/shamanism practice....so it's gonna take A LOOOOONNNNNG time to truly gain people's trust. Just stay honest....don't try too hard or try to prove yourself too much and go into it WILLING TO COMMIT TO THAT COMMUNITY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE if you find your place there. When I say commit...I don't mean give money or work...you gotta give your heart.
One more thing I'll address before I'm done is the idea you have about tribes east/west of the Mississippi. Don't get caught up in that. Even full-blood Indians get that wrong. My tribe is well east of the Mississippi...we are federally recognized, our community has never been moved, our language exists and is spoken fluently by well over half the community with efforts to fully immerse our schools in it to try and keep it that way or improve it. I have two very close friends who are not enrolled with federally recognized tribes, but they've never been questioned about their heritage. They live it every day as well as their families. For one friend his father is full-blooded, but his tribe is matrilineal...they trace their descendants through the women so if you're mom is not part of that tribe...regardless of your dad's blood quantum....you can't be enrolled. So he's never gonna be enrolled there...but it's simply not an issue for him....he was raised with his culture....he knows his community and they accept him. For the other....her father had disagreements with the tribe's government long before they were born so he chose not to enroll his children....she was still brought up inside her culture and community....she's still considered part of them. Neither one of them has the paperwork, but they are both considered NDN.
Your heritage is a part of you.....it can't be proven, it can't be bought. You can only live it and accept it. If you choose to honor it just remember....it's not easy.
Superdog
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Correction...ok, I mis-read an earlier post of yours about the Dine, with you stating your tribe is the largest just UNDER the Dine...that's my error. Don't get your self worked up over that.
But I won't retract what I said. If you cannot figure it out, then tough. As to the questions...it's HOW you proceeded to answer them, AFTER your rude comments to me earlier on. If you seen, I thanked those in the very beginning BECAUSE they answered those questions, which were unbiased, BEFORE they asked their own questions.
I asked these questions to get a better understanding of those who are on this site. I see some good people, some bad, and some that are self-centered.
Eric
Well, good for you that you're Dine of the Southwest, that your tribe suffers little and that every day isn't a struggle to learn your heritage, your language, your ceremonies, and that you can still talk to your grandparents and possibly great grandparents, that you know where your great great great grandparents are buried, and is very successful with selling crafts that are way out of price range of a normal working person to buy.
I wasn't directing my latest comment to you, I was gonna pretty much accept what you typed and let it go, to be respectful although every single comment you made to me was inflamed with anger and most likely the word 'wannabe' going through your head.
I cannot talk to my grandparents, they all are dead...unless you are stating that you can speak to the dead and are offering your services? I'd love to speak with my great great grandparents and on back, to find out first hand my family, language and culture. Don't be so hyped up that YOU think you know everything. I even know a Cheyenne living in Lame Deer, Montana, who has to learn his Cheyenne culture, language, etc, out of a book, and from what he told me there's plenty of elders around to ask first hand.
I'm SURE there's some white blood there somewhere, especially if my mother's cousin did marry a Dine woman before I was born, but they couldn't have any children. So, don't say your tribe has no white blood, it's there.
But, I did get you to admit your discrimination towards anyone who isn't recognized federally. There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized. It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there). There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in. That's one point I've been trying to make. If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.
To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered, and I won't judge you by your tribe/nation. I still have deep respect for your tribe/nation, for I know people are different all over...but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from...and that goes for anyone that has some sense.
Eric
Who are you talking Too????
I am not Dine!!!
I am Lakota from the northern Plain in fact North Dakota.
I am sorry the Cheyenne must learn from a book who wrote the book?
I don't know everything but i know my people and my culture
I don't have no Dine in my family at all
I don't have white blood either, I am 7/8 Hunkpapa/Blackfeet and 1/8 oglala
If you can read I said i have friend who are unrecogized but they know their culture/language and land.
They are native.
your statement:
It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there).
confusing statement what does the Dine have to do with the Lakota?? I know know their history only my people.
your statement
There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in
which tribes? What does genealogy have to do with enrollment of a nation?
your statement
If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.
what are you talking about my nation is the fastest growing population in our state. over 50% of our people are under the age of 18 years old and all members of the tribe.
what trouble has i caused i answered your question like you asked
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All I can say is that I know you and a selected few doesn't want to accept those who have NDN within them, doesn't want to have nothing to do with them. Superdog says to forget about the west/east thing, but that's going to be hard when it comes to you and the few others I know.
I have read many requirements for enrollment out there (and more to read), and MANY includes blood, so you cannot disregard that aspect. If you wanna know why I keep mentioning blood, that's why.
I'm not self-centered...I'm just trying to find out how each and every person thinks out there, so that "I" can learn something. If you don't like how I go about learning, going about in a circle....
Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white. That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition. You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.
If I had African blood in me, I'd be proud of that, but I don't have African in me. I have NDN, and I AM proud of that fact, and I am TRYING to get my family back with their people...been trying inbetween everything else that's been going on.
I even put on the census I'm NDN this last time, and I will always put it on each and every census because that is who I am. Sure, I have more to learn about my culture, my language, but I know who I am.
As to me thinking my blood is like fine wine or a gold ring...no. It is pride that I have. Pride enough to HELP the Alleghenny Lenape out by getting them back together (do you think I'll be taking over after my mother would die? heck no!). Sure, too much pride is boastful, but I got enough that it shows...and I'll be showing it at powwow this September, then next year when I 'pay my way in' to do my first dance in the arena (and no, it's not that crappy regalia you all seen).
LOL...a citizen of the USA? Tell me...what GOOD has the U.S. did to your family? My famliy has never been in politics, but inter-married with the tribes who lived here, so pretty much I have as much antagonism towards the USA as you and every other NDN out there has. The only prob I have with you (and people like you) is your single-mindedness, where you close your doors to those who are your brothers and sisters and cousins, all because they never was on your grandfather's enrollment list. Why don't you kill every single one of us, then, since you think we plague 'your land'. It's better than being like an outcast by your own tribe (broad termed), due to what 'mistakes' our ancestors did to yours (broad termed).
Eric
Eric
Well, this has gone from simple questions, to people doubting who I am, to geneology, to just being frustrated
Eric, these aren't simple questions and they aren't all about you and your Mother. Look At the title of this thread . Whatever the answers are, they have to be practical to fairly apply to everyone, such as all your cousins and everyone of the same description.
Eric
It would ease my mother's nerves - she doesn't even have much time to live anyway - 2 years max due to cancer. This has been a battle for us all this time, trying to be recognized, by the tribe our blood is of.
The way you are going about it is most likely to alienate you completely. Why - because you come across like you think that however this is defined it should be all about you and what you want, not the bigger picture, or what is needed to retain the long term health of tribe and culture.
Eric
And when I marry (and I have my own eyes on the look out), and have children, I want my children to know their heritage, like what my mother and I would learn when we become enrolled
I think MatoSiWin asked you a really good question. Why do you feel you need to be enrolled in a tribe?
You already are a citizen of a Nation which has many members with similar blood lines to yourself - and with each generation of more intermarriages there will be more. It's caled the tribe of the USA.
If you don't like how your tribe is conducting itself , do something about it from within. Looking to be enrolled in tribe that pretends your prominantely non native heritage doesn't exist just seems you are searching for other people who will support you in your denial. You don't need t be enrolled in any tribe to practice and encourage traditional morals and values and an indigenous sense of responsibility .
Those specific protected sensitve cultral traditions you say you want to practice almost always loose their meaning outside the context of a deeply rooted contiunously existing tradition which is practiced and known by the whole community . Why not find strength and joy from leaving them where they belong , and knowing they are still being practiced in a good way? It seems non native people with their strong emphasis on the importance of the individual always think what is most important is that they personally have the opprotunity to be in whatever role they choose, but if you were more in touch with real Native cultures and not just your fantasy of it, you would know there is many roles within a native society which are only performed by selected people within that society, and not everyone who is enrolled in a nation can do whatever they like with that Nations culture and ceremonies.
But you mentioned wanting government funding- and I suppose these suggestions would not satisfy that .
IMO Your children would have a lot better chance of knowing a bit of their REAL heritage if you could be more realistic and respectful of the limitations that come with having a mostly non native background.
The way you talk you sound like that nightmare house guest that was welcome to stay 3 days and stays 3 months and you have to get the police to evict them. You sure wouldn't get invited to visit again ...
If you discovered you had a gr gr grandmother who came from Africa would you be obbessing about how you had wrongly been denied the right to be a citizen of a country in Africa?
For that matter a lot of your European ancestors were wrongly forced out of their homelands. Why don't you feel ripped off that you aren't eligible for English socal programs ? Your way of selecting just what you want from your own background and stringing it together into a story of entitlements seems really dishonest.
Eric
And what irks me so much is people like Barnaby and Mama-Porcupine who swears I am just white, and doesn't want to recognize the NDN part of me.
I never said that. I said you are 15/16 non native - and your family also has had a long immersion in a non native cultural background. I just pointed out you seem to be desparate to deny the vaste majority of your heritage
Eric
I was taught that you had to either be white, or be NDN...even told this by an elder I spoke to down in Cherokee, NC
I think thats true in a way. Kind of like that bible parable about a rich man not being able to enter the kingdom of heaven any easier than a camel can pass through the eye of a needle.
Native ways of thinking tend to be about the community and past and future generations, and are therefore too big to fit into non native ways of thinking which tends to be more about acheiving short term individual satisfaction. So people can't hold both world views at once.
But in another way I don't think it's true that people are either native or nonnative . For example the Metis people are truely a mix of both. There are many people who have real influences from both cultures and world veiws and are niether purely European or purely Ndn - and I think you are one of them . Some of these people manage to integrate this and do something with it to make the world a better place. You could be one of those , but you need to start putting the long term health and survival of the culture and true cultural values ahead of your individual fanatsies and desires.
Why not work to reform the colonial European culture from within, into a culture that is more respectful of indigenous values? Why not adopt a long term goal to preserve these basic traditional values , morals and responsibilities , so that in over the next 400 years the influence of increasing mixing might lead to an improved American society ? Why not work to protect indigenous communities so they continue to have enough control of theior own cultures and resources to maintain a strong and vibrant culture.
I don't mean I think the best way to do this is by everyone wanting to directly paticipate in indigenous cultures. Or worse do shallow imitations of ceremonies - Sometimes the best support is just by learning and teaching others to stay out of the way.
We all benifit from making sure indigenous peoples have what they need to maintain their cultures, and the knowledge and values of these cultures does have extremely positive influences on everyone it touches - often in very ordinary day to day transactions.
Eric
There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized
.
It's a bit creepy the way you keep thinking it is all about blood even a very tiny amount of it- and you put so little importance on people living in a community which has retained it's family relationships , Native identity and culture.
When you repeatedly put so much emphasis on blood , it's like you are turning being an Ndn into a commodity like having a bottle of fine wine, or a gold ring.
Eric
To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered
No Eric, it is you who is sounding very self centered.
Eric
but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from
I know you don't see this , but what you are saying is that Native people who have strongly retained theur culture and identity are trouble makers because they interfer with you redefining what an Ndn is to include predominantely non native people such as yourself. Your lack of respect for Native peoples authority to define themselves and their own people and communities , once again sounds like the way nonnative people think about things. You sound like yo are dismissing Ndns as non people or incompetant to control their own resources - which you have decided you want.
Your world veiw has repeatedly come across sounds as very self centered and non native to me.
This being the case, I really think you should look into some of the wrongs done to your European ancestors and see what sort of reimbursments or repatriations you might be entitled to on the basis of that part of your families heritage. Such claims would be a lot more realistic .
About the only thing I agree with you on is that many families who moved to a distant place don't recall much about grandparents and greatgrandparents, and unless everybody has stayed in the same community it can take an effort to learn about your family background. It's true some families hid their Native ancestry - but I honestly think that for every family that did this all the nieghbors gossiped and the nieghborhood children who heard bits of hushed stories often mistakenly passed these on as stories, but telling them as if the Ndn grandma was their own.
What Earth is saying is real. If you don't know your Ndn relatives and grandparents you aren't Ndn . You may have some mixed blood and even some sensitivity so some parts of Native ways , but this just makes you a non native person with some Native influences. Who we are is much more about the communities we live in and the relationships we have, than being an individual in possesion of something- whether that is fine wine, gold or a tiny bit of ndn blood .
Just my opinion , but I hope this helps you get a bit of perspective and to understand what is being said here.
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Your comment is the most down to earth comment, other than Nighthawk's.
You are right...but my mother and I does have to put a bee in the bonnet of those Alleghenny Lenape still hanging around - it's the least we can do.
But I do know what you're saying...and my mother and I will do anything we can so at least one tribe of our heritage does recognize us as relatives, and if not enroll us, at least bring them into their family and teach us.
Eric
Ok..I think I see what your going for Eric. However, you do seem to miss the point of people's posts. There's really good info in there, but you're not seeing it. This post is written with the idea of respect towards you Eric, but there's some things you're gonna read here you probably won't like....the words aren't meant to attack you....i'm just being brutally honest so there's no confusion. The major points will be written in all caps so if you miss anything in the post you can go back and check the parts written in all CAPS so that you can see the major points easily.
I'll just say this. The route your choosing to be recognized as NDN is wrong. You'll NEVER get what you want out of it. You're trying to be "recognized" as "NDN" by sidestepping government laws and regulations, but the point your missing is THERE'S NO LAW THAT CAN "MAKE" YOU NDN.
It all starts with family, then community, then tribe/nation. I hate to burst your bubble, but in your particular situation you're not gonna get any piece of paper that's gonna be your "proof of authenticity." It's just not gonna happen.
In your situation with the Alleghenny Lenape...the tribe you joined is not a tribe. It's a fraudulent organization run formerly by a fraudulent chief. Your weren't adopted...you paid your way in...in short.....YOU AND YOUR MOM GOT SCAMMED BY THE KINDS OF FRAUDS THIS BOARD FIGHTS TO STOP.
I feel for you....I can imagine it's a terrible feeling to be sucked in by these types...they tell you everything you want to hear to make you feel like you belong...then they take your money and time and leave you with nothing. You said yourself that your mom was desperate to belong and be recognized by a tribe and that's why you became part of them. THAT DESPERATION IS JUST WHAT THESE FRAUDULENT TRIBES PREY UPON.
I don't doubt that the Alleghenny Lenape existed in Ohio...I don't doubt that the descendants still exist there. I believe you ....but somewhere along the line they gave up their community, their land, and their self-governance. What's left are remnants.
When it comes to Federal Recognition some of the MAJOR criteria that has to be met before they even CONSIDER the application are: 1) The existence of a continuous community considered to be Allegheny Lenape from the time Ohio came into existence, 2) A land base occupied by the Allegheny Lenape through that time, and 3) A form of goverment practiced by the Allegeny Lenape in continuity.
All 3 of these major criteria simply disappeared for the Allegheny Lenape somewhere along the line. For whatever reasons they gave up their community and their right to govern themselves and once that's gone....there's no possible way for them to EVER get Federal Recognition.
It seems you've been taught that the road to Federal Recognition lies in State Recognition. That's completely false. YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE STATE RECOGNITION FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION. That fantasy was most likely fed to you by the fraudulent chief who ran off with all the money or people that were taught by him. That's what fraudulent tribes do. They prey on your desperation and the LACK OF COMMON KNOWLEDGE about Federal Indian laws. They keep their money making machine going off the backs of people like you and your mom and just before the money dries up....they take off....
In fact, I'd make a strong guess that your fraudulent chief KNEW that he was never gonna be considered a real tribe......but he had to give you something to work for....a mission in your life so that you'd keep following him and give up your time and money working for him.
So....with all honesty.....for your own sake and sanity as well as your sick mother....quit following the fantasy given to you by a fraud. You're a victim of a scam....don't become the perpetrator of that same scam.
I'm not saying all this to destroy your spirit or your pride in your heritage. I'm only being honest with you. If you really want to honor your heritage then it goes just like I said before.....through family, then community, then tribe/nation. Enrollment doesn't make you Indian...how you live your life does. But as we've all been saying...you've got a lot to learn....you've not really pinned down for yourself where your heritage really comes from. Start there....when that's figured out go and visit the existing communities that exist. You may have relatives there....be honest about your story....let people know that your family has denied your heritage through several generations and when you and your mom learned of it you wanted to reconnect. It may even mean moving closer or into that community (and i'm talking a community that has existed in continuity....not one that just popped up like the URB). Learn the language....that's probably the most important. If you work hard enough with a good spirit, community members will recognize that and help you....they may take you into their extended family to ensure you stay on a good path.....just realize.....just about every Indian community has been burned by taking in outsiders who stick around...learn a few things and take it and leave and begin their own fraudulent tribe/shamanism practice....so it's gonna take A LOOOOONNNNNG time to truly gain people's trust. Just stay honest....don't try too hard or try to prove yourself too much and go into it WILLING TO COMMIT TO THAT COMMUNITY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE if you find your place there. When I say commit...I don't mean give money or work...you gotta give your heart.
One more thing I'll address before I'm done is the idea you have about tribes east/west of the Mississippi. Don't get caught up in that. Even full-blood Indians get that wrong. My tribe is well east of the Mississippi...we are federally recognized, our community has never been moved, our language exists and is spoken fluently by well over half the community with efforts to fully immerse our schools in it to try and keep it that way or improve it. I have two very close friends who are not enrolled with federally recognized tribes, but they've never been questioned about their heritage. They live it every day as well as their families. For one friend his father is full-blooded, but his tribe is matrilineal...they trace their descendants through the women so if you're mom is not part of that tribe...regardless of your dad's blood quantum....you can't be enrolled. So he's never gonna be enrolled there...but it's simply not an issue for him....he was raised with his culture....he knows his community and they accept him. For the other....her father had disagreements with the tribe's government long before they were born so he chose not to enroll his children....she was still brought up inside her culture and community....she's still considered part of them. Neither one of them has the paperwork, but they are both considered NDN.
Your heritage is a part of you.....it can't be proven, it can't be bought. You can only live it and accept it. If you choose to honor it just remember....it's not easy.
Superdog
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Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white. That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition. You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.
Actually you kind of missed the parts where he said he has family that's not enrolled, but they're still Native. But on to the real part.
I'm pulling this quote out as an example of why your arguments tend to not hold water. What you have written here is a generalization (like the East/West thing...another generalization). If you want this quote to be considered seriously as part of this conversation you'll really have to back it up with a clear example of what you mean. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's hard to pin down exactly what you're talking about in this quote and what it has to do with you.
And continuing on with what I was talking about earlier.....never forget honesty. You're saying I AM NDN AND I'M PROUD OF THAT AND THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME. But pride is not knowledge or wisdom. You've got to completely honest to yourself about the stage you're at when it comes to these things. You've admitted that you're just learning, but when someone disagrees with you.....you correct them. To me, that says that you're fooling yourself.....I think it says the same to others. The honest thing is to let the world know that you're just beginning and then behave like a beginner would. Someone willing to learn doesn't argue that's he's right....he sits and listens. So people disagree with you...sometimes they're rough with you about it....but can you blame them when they come across you....saying you want to learn, but only responding to negativity so you can prove your right. You're preaching to people who've known all their lives where their heritage and culture lies, but you're preaching to them as if you know more. That's pride messin' with ya. Your first lesson in your culture should be to humble yourself before all the creation that's around....including living beings. Toss the pride....it only hurts YOU in the end.
As for the pow-wow you're gonna dance in....again....not Lenape culture....paying your way into the dances....still not Lenape. They're real traditions for sure....but not Lenape traditions. Once again you've been taught badly and then preach to those who know better like THEY'RE wrong for saying something. Definitely not the attitude of someone willing to learn.
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If I had African blood in me, I'd be proud of that, but I don't have African in me.
Actually, all humans have African blood in us. You quite possibly have more African blood than NDN.
However, the point that people have made over and over, and I don't see why you find it so odd, is that this is about culture, language, tradition, way of life. If you weren't raised in the culture, or weren't taken in by traditional people and assimilated into the culture in a traditional and good way, over the long haul, you're not of that culture. I don't see why that is so difficult to grasp.
I know you don't want to hear this, but I see a big sense of entitlement in your long and demanding posts here. What's wrong with being who you are? Why come to a board that is dedicated to protecting people from fraud and argue that distant ancestry means you're the same as those who grew up in a particular culture that you are not part of? I think you have a romanticized idea of what it means to be NDN. You don't come off as NDN, you come off as a white person who wants the exotic, romanticized parts of the culture without the day to day realities. You probably are unaware of the day to day realities of life as an actual NDN person - what it's like to be a person without white skin privilege living in a racist country; what it's like to grow up in essentially another country even though on "American" soil; what it's like to live in a culture that is very different from that of mainstream Amerika.
You are acting very odd, and not like a traditional person at all. If you do not understand what I mean by this, well, that again reinforces the point that you seem to be very unclear on what the NDN folks here are saying. People here don't have to "research" their origins or culture; they already know who they are because it's how they were raised. If you want to be an ally or new participant in NDN cultures... well, I'd respectfully suggest calming down and listening rather than demanding.
I think people have tried to be polite to you, but you have been very pushy and strange and disrespectful. Your behaviour is showing you don't belong to the very communities to which you seem so desperately to want to belong. And by acting this way, you are probably pushing away the very people who could have been your allies and teachers in this matter.
Just my three cents.
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Redhawk
All I can say is that I know you and a selected few doesn't want to accept those who have NDN within them, doesn't want to have nothing to do with them.
redhawk45
Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white. That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition. You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.
As you have quoted me and seem to be replying to what I said , I am assuming you are responding to something you imagine i said, except I never said anything like that and I don't think that at all.
I said that in my opinion, people who have a small amount of Native blood who's families have lived outside of a Native community for more than 2 generations are predominantly non native with some Native influence, and that these people have responsibilities that come from both sides of their heritage.
If such a person reconnected and participated in the day to day life of a culturally strong Native community it's possible that influence would get stronger.
Superdog
Actually you kind of missed the parts where he said he has family that's not enrolled, but they're still Native.
Superdog, I think you are thinking of Nighthawk , and what you quoted was what Redhawk said in response to me .
It seems the perspective I'm speaking from is creating some confusion. I've never claimed to be Ndn. As I am posting anonymously I am not comfortable to give much information about myself , and i can see that might be a bit confusing as to what my position is.
I've previously explained that I'm familiar with the territory on both sides of the fence and I see people getting hurt on both sides and I hope communication can help improve things.
I want to say I don't mean to be harsh, and i actually have a lot of sympathy for people who fall through the cracks .
But there is unrealistic assumptions of entitlement that lead to behavior which from what I have seen , only widens these cracks and makes them deeper, and it often isn't even the person who did the deeds that suffers the consquences of the resentment and mistrust they created. It is all too often the next person who comes along wanting or maybe really needing to reconnect with this part of their background.
When I point out what this behavior is, I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, and I don't think anyone else here does either, but after you talk to 20 or 120 people with attitudes of entitlement, who just don't hear what is being said, some of the sympathy starts to get worn a bit thin. I imagine many Native people like Earth have had to talk to hundreds of people like this, and notalways because they decide to join some on line discussion, but because these people are constantly intruding into sensitive areas of their lives.
These attitudes and behaviors not only hurt the Nations people are wanting / needing to connect with , but they also set up mistrust which will hurt other less presumptuous PODIAs who are needing this connection to feel whole.
And what I am saying here is not just directed at Eric, but at the many other people in similar situations.
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So, you're pretty much saying that us who does have NDN ancestry should just go off to a corner and be forgotten? Gee, if I took those ideals, I would get no where in life. Life is a battle, I have learned, having to battle for every single thing that means something to me, to my mother, to my family. You say we're non-native because we're not enrolled with a federally recognized tribe (generally). As you pointed out, there are loads of others just like my mother and I who are doing as much battling, maybe more. The most satisfaction I would get is some one on a rez would point to me and say "he is my relative"...that'd be the MOST recognition I would love to have. If someone said that, I'd give up fighting for enrollment, for that guy or girl on the rez recognized me, respects me for who I am, and is willing to share what they know with me (that is, a tribe/nation I have a blood connection with).
Anyhow, I'm pretty much done discussing things with you. If anything, I know who on this site I can listen to.
Eric
Redhawk
All I can say is that I know you and a selected few doesn't want to accept those who have NDN within them, doesn't want to have nothing to do with them.
redhawk45
Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white. That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition. You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.
As you have quoted me and seem to be replying to what I said , I am assuming you are responding to something you imagine i said, except I never said anything like that and I don't think that at all.
I said that in my opinion, people who have a small amount of Native blood who's families have lived outside of a Native community for more than 2 generations are predominantly non native with some Native influence, and that these people have responsibilities that come from both sides of their heritage.
If such a person reconnected and participated in the day to day life of a culturally strong Native community it's possible that influence would get stronger.
Superdog
Actually you kind of missed the parts where he said he has family that's not enrolled, but they're still Native.
Superdog, I think you are thinking of Nighthawk , and what you quoted was what Redhawk said in response to me .
It seems the perspective I'm speaking from is creating some confusion. I've never claimed to be Ndn. As I am posting anonymously I am not comfortable to give much information about myself , and i can see that might be a bit confusing as to what my position is.
I've previously explained that I'm familiar with the territory on both sides of the fence and I see people getting hurt on both sides and I hope communication can help improve things.
I want to say I don't mean to be harsh, and i actually have a lot of sympathy for people who fall through the cracks .
But there is unrealistic assumptions of entitlement that lead to behavior which from what I have seen , only widens these cracks and makes them deeper, and it often isn't even the person who did the deeds that suffers the consquences of the resentment and mistrust they created. It is all too often the next person who comes along wanting or maybe really needing to reconnect with this part of their background.
When I point out what this behavior is, I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, and I don't think anyone else here does either, but after you talk to 20 or 120 people with attitudes of entitlement, who just don't hear what is being said, some of the sympathy starts to get worn a bit thin. I imagine many Native people like Earth have had to talk to hundreds of people like this, and notalways because they decide to join some on line discussion, but because these people are constantly intruding into sensitive areas of their lives.
These attitudes and behaviors not only hurt the Nations people are wanting / needing to connect with , but they also set up mistrust which will hurt other less presumptuous PODIAs who are needing this connection to feel whole.
And what I am saying here is not just directed at Eric, but at the many other people in similar situations.
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I'm not saying I'm wrong about a lot of things you're saying, but I don't like where Mama-Porcupine is going. She is disrespecting all people who does know their family (even through geneology) (and I am not just focusing on me) by calling them non-native.
I AM willing to learn, and for all that's worth, the only two people I can talk to on this thing that I can learn from is nighthawk and you! I don't like other's opinions, nor do they like mine, so it's a stand-off.
If you want to discuss more, PM me. Perhaps you can help me more in PM than getting other people more angered, and me more frustrated.
Eric
Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white. That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition. You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.
Actually you kind of missed the parts where he said he has family that's not enrolled, but they're still Native. But on to the real part.
I'm pulling this quote out as an example of why your arguments tend to not hold water. What you have written here is a generalization (like the East/West thing...another generalization). If you want this quote to be considered seriously as part of this conversation you'll really have to back it up with a clear example of what you mean. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's hard to pin down exactly what you're talking about in this quote and what it has to do with you.
And continuing on with what I was talking about earlier.....never forget honesty. You're saying I AM NDN AND I'M PROUD OF THAT AND THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME. But pride is not knowledge or wisdom. You've got to completely honest to yourself about the stage you're at when it comes to these things. You've admitted that you're just learning, but when someone disagrees with you.....you correct them. To me, that says that you're fooling yourself.....I think it says the same to others. The honest thing is to let the world know that you're just beginning and then behave like a beginner would. Someone willing to learn doesn't argue that's he's right....he sits and listens. So people disagree with you...sometimes they're rough with you about it....but can you blame them when they come across you....saying you want to learn, but only responding to negativity so you can prove your right. You're preaching to people who've known all their lives where their heritage and culture lies, but you're preaching to them as if you know more. That's pride messin' with ya. Your first lesson in your culture should be to humble yourself before all the creation that's around....including living beings. Toss the pride....it only hurts YOU in the end.
As for the pow-wow you're gonna dance in....again....not Lenape culture....paying your way into the dances....still not Lenape. They're real traditions for sure....but not Lenape traditions. Once again you've been taught badly and then preach to those who know better like THEY'RE wrong for saying something. Definitely not the attitude of someone willing to learn.
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Boy!
All I can say is if you live among your people, know your culture, language, land and way of life then you are Native.
If your relatives acknowledge you that is what makes you native.
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Eric, if in fact there are still Alleghany Lenape around, why would they need an upstart lad like you to organize them? Wouldn't they do that on their own? Or are you their ndn messiah? I was going to advise you but others here have given you good advise and you don't listen too good....you are fortunate that they are trying to help you in spite of your attitude. Maybe you should explore some of your feelings with a professional listener.
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*sigh* this is what I get for not reading every thread here. For those who want some background on Eric, see this thread: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1576.0
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Yes, that's the bottom line.
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Who says that I am the one who is going to re-organize them? Who says I am claiming to be a messiah? Don't put words I never said into my mouth, and don't say I'm freakin crazy, as you point blank said in the last sentence.
I have been listening to TWO people on here, Superdog and Nighthawk. Why should I listen to someone who doesn't want to acknowledge non-recognized NDN's, calling them all non-native (pretty much calling every single one a wannabe)? Why should I listen to someone who's head is up his own butt? Why should I take advice from someone from Ireland, who has no right to say she knows more about the Indigenous people of this land than the NDN's do, and claims to be a priestess? PLEASE, if you have a dang good explanation for WHY I should listen to these people, then speak up. If not, keep silent.
The Alleghenny Lenape needs to be regrouped after what Samuel Kennedy did to them (and to us). Shane Norris of Newark is Lenape, and with more talking to him probably will TAKE OVER after my mother dies. I don't give a crap if you and every single one here wants to call the Alleghenny Lenape fake...but I guess you'd be calling the Lenape in Cambridge, OH, fake, who has actual history, and actually acknowledges there was an extra band of Lenape called the Raven, which was pretty much the Alleghenny Lenape. Sure, Sammy was a fraud himself, but he did organize the tribe, and after he disappeared someone has to take a stand to regroup them to get them on their feet. Or, is what I just read in earlier posts about supporting the native communites wrong? They may not be MY BLOOD (or my mother's), but my mother is going to support them any way possible, and I support my mother.
As I said, give me a good reason why I should listen to those others who wants to put my family down, wants to put my mother's GOOD INTENTIONS down. I have an attitude BECAUSE of that, and your wicked little comment doesn't help.
Here's a note to all...if you don't have something GOOD to say, to help me or my mother out, WITHOUT putting down my blood, family, and the Alleghenny Lenape whom we are trying to help, then keep quiet (or haven't you learned your lesson already? Fire only fuels fire.).
Eric
Eric, if in fact there are still Alleghany Lenape around, why would they need an upstart lad like you to organize them? Wouldn't they do that on their own? Or are you their ndn messiah? I was going to advise you but others here have given you good advise and you don't listen too good....you are fortunate that they are trying to help you in spite of your attitude. Maybe you should explore some of your feelings with a professional listener.
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Two things...one, I don't believe at all that I am from Africa...like the evolution thing. That's not in my belief.
Two, every single person already knows about that thread, and if you have noticed, it's pretty much stopped. I ask a few questions in here, and get fire. Superdog may say that the east/west thing with the tribes is ficticious, but from most responses to this thread, I see it VERY clearly.
If there was advice given, it should have been given NICELY, not bashing what I know to be true, of my values and beliefs, and what I learned in the past. If those answers were given without disrespect, as they WERE in the very beginning, there wouldn't be no arguing of views. But, they were, with people doubting my mother and I's ancestry. It's almost like saying that you don't have Irish, that you have none of that blood, but from China or Japan. If you notice, I didn't say Africa, since you believe that humans came from apes. But, I'm not going to argue with you, for it's your belief...just not mine.
Eric
*sigh* this is what I get for not reading every thread here. For those who want some background on Eric, see this thread: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1576.0
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Macuski, if you weren't so self involved, you'd realize two very obvious things:
No one has insulted you or done any wrong to you in here. Just the opposite, people have been amazingly patient and helpful with lots of good advice.
This is in spite of you repeatedly lashing at others in here for "wrongs" and "insults" that largely don't exist outside your imagination. The most obvious was the long harangue you directed at earthw7 for no reason, over things she never said, which you quietly said no more about once you realized she was right, that you'd exploded at her for something nonexistent.
It's pretty obvious you're not really arguing with us. You're arguing (and sometimes getting angry at us) for things you imagine others have done to you. "Oh those darn enrolled Indians are out to get us unenrolled ones!"
In most Indian forums, people would either have ignored you once they realized you weren't about to listen anyway, or they would have gotten fed up and simply driven you out.
But we haven't, largely because we take into account your youth and even more so, your lack of experience around Indian people.
Before you explode, realize that you and your mother are both of distant ancestry to most Indians. You were not raised within Indian cultures.
(And please, spare us any more explosions about "not your fault" or "blame the govt". We already know this. Can you imagine someone who was 1/8 Black showing up at a Black activist forum to lecture the people there about slavery and segregation? These are old facts we already know very well.)
If you had been, no one would even need to explain basic Indian ideas of politeness and patience, which you keep violating left and right. Understand that if you try the same behavior you've shown in here on other Indian forums, or esp in real life, again, you'll either be ignored or shown the door. If you were this rude at some powwows, security would already have hauled you out the gate by your shirt collar.
We here at NAFPS are far more used to people with distant ancestry, so that's why we've up to now cut you so much slack. But if you can't learn to first of all only hold people responsible for things they actually say and not what you repeatedly imagine they say, most of us will probably conclude we should not continue trying to get through to you. It's your choice.
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I have been following the remarks that has been said to Eric Redhawk and up until now I had just thought I would let the majority of you speak your minds, but unfortunately you seem to get things wrong. As I have been doing so should you all should have been doing with Eric Redhawk, he too be able to speak his mind. Since I am replying to you, you also have rudely missed the whole point of an OPEN DISCUSSION form.
Some not all had insulted Eirc Redhawk. He is a young man of 29 years of age, who has every right to feel the way he does, and for those who disagree with his feelings should have said it politely, not say "should explore some of your feelings with a professional listener", call him a non-native american, and treating him like he shouldn't be proud of his native american part. He's lived with the european part, which most of you have not. From what I read, he wants to live among his native american relatives and become a part of that nation that he is proud in.
If you think Eric has problems, noooo...there are many who live on the reservations have more of a problem with their heritage. If you take this as an offense, I'm sorry, but I am your elder, and you will respect me as your elder, as all native americans respect their elders.
Starwolf45
Macuski, if you weren't so self involved, you'd realize two very obvious things:
No one has insulted you or done any wrong to you in here. Just the opposite, people have been amazingly patient and helpful with lots of good advice.
This is in spite of you repeatedly lashing at others in here for "wrongs" and "insults" that largely don't exist outside your imagination. The most obvious was the long harangue you directed at earthw7 for no reason, over things she never said, which you quietly said no more about once you realized she was right, that you'd exploded at her for something nonexistent.
It's pretty obvious you're not really arguing with us. You're arguing (and sometimes getting angry at us) for things you imagine others have done to you. "Oh those darn enrolled Indians are out to get us unenrolled ones!"
In most Indian forums, people would either have ignored you once they realized you weren't about to listen anyway, or they would have gotten fed up and simply driven you out.
But we haven't, largely because we take into account your youth and even more so, your lack of experience around Indian people.
Before you explode, realize that you and your mother are both of distant ancestry to most Indians. You were not raised within Indian cultures.
(And please, spare us any more explosions about "not your fault" or "blame the govt". We already know this. Can you imagine someone who was 1/8 Black showing up at a Black activist forum to lecture the people there about slavery and segregation? These are old facts we already know very well.)
If you had been, no one would even need to explain basic Indian ideas of politeness and patience, which you keep violating left and right. Understand that if you try the same behavior you've shown in here on other Indian forums, or esp in real life, again, you'll either be ignored or shown the door. If you were this rude at some powwows, security would already have hauled you out the gate by your shirt collar.
We here at NAFPS are far more used to people with distant ancestry, so that's why we've up to now cut you so much slack. But if you can't learn to first of all only hold people responsible for things they actually say and not what you repeatedly imagine they say, most of us will probably conclude we should not continue trying to get through to you. It's your choice.
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Let me guess, you're his mother, right? ::)
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Aloha
Let me guess, you're his mother, right? ::)
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Let me guess, you're his mother, right? ::)
Yeah, and I'm from India. ::) ::)
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What? Are you being disrepectful? Because if you are, the person I replied to is the only one I want to talk to. I don't want to talk to you.
Starwolf45
Let me guess, you're his mother, right? ::)
Yeah, and I'm from India. ::) ::)
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Aloha Starwolf, so may I ask, are you his mother? I notice you have not introduced yourself on the new member page, that would be helpful. I found it interesting that you are demanding respect as an elder in your first post without benefit of an introduction. It is nice of you to intercede on Eric's behalf but he seems to be plenty able to see only the viewpoints he chooses to and thus is ably defending himself. As you say, he has the right to have the feelings he has, but he does not have the right to expect that others will agree with them. In fact, others here have given him some very good advice but he does not receive it in the way it was given. A more humble approach here on his part and perhaps yours would yield greater benefits in my own humble opinion. Trying to reaffiliate with one's distant tribal ancestry is a worthy task but not an easy one, and the wrong attitude will make it impossible....we ARE trying to help.
PS My comment about him perhaps exploring his feelings with a professional listener was said with good intentions....if I was just dissing him I would have called him a nutjob....BUT I DIDN'T. Obviously these issues are affecting his life in a major way and it could be helpful to him to find out why it is so important to him, with added perspective from a professional.
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Mrs Macuski, Don't come in here and present youself as an Elder. You may be Eric's elder. But being an Elder entails more than just age. It's already been adknowledged he may have heritage. But I don't think anyone will validate the "Tribe". No one is going to do his research. It has been explained to him by several people. He doesn't listen and it has gone to mostly smoke and mirrors on his part. So it is pretty well a closed subject. And it is not disrespectful, there is nothing more that can be said about the subject that hasn't been said.
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Apparently it is time for ME to give an answer as to what I think being NDN is, since all I keep getting on here are bits and pieces, including BASHING of those who can prove their native ancestry, and many other derrogatory comments without getting a full answer.
NO..I do not believe someone of 1/64 or even smaller, can claim to be Native. If they are smaller, and still inter-marries with others that are similar, then they are Metis. If the amount of blood quantum is 10% or higher in an individual, then they are NDN and have the same rights, responsibilities and priveleges as to any other NDN, federal and non-recognized.
Sure, culture, language, land is important, but so is family, and that includes geneology (which is the study of your famliy lineage), and DNA. When DNA matches perfectly with someone's geneology, and can even pinpoint which tribes, that's proof on paper. I learned myself of a deceased friend's adopted parents who did do a DNA, went west to a Federally Recognized tribe, and actually became enrolled because of DNA. DNA is what is distinctive in your blood. Sure, some nutjob labs can only say european or whatever...DNAtribes and one other can literally state, with accuracy (and because they are linked with the Federal govt.) which tribe you are from, and how much percentage you have of whatever genetic code from all over the world.
In the U.S., it is demanded of a person to say what he/she is, whether it is white, black, asian, latino, native american, etc. One cannot pick several, as evident on many forms of documentation, local, state and federal. When I was taught you had to be one or the other, I picked myself to be NDN, because I BELIEVE I am the last one in my family to hold any NDN blood, and that's why I will marry a woman with NDN blood.
And when someone of NDN blood tries to learn everything he can, EVEN when it is out of books because he/she might not be able to go to the village where his/her tribe is, it still makes him NDN. You can't tell Sonny Bearing who lives in Lame Deer, MT, that he's not NDN because he is learning his Cheyenne culture out of a book. He'd protest, show his card, etc, and even someone here said that proof of NDN isn't in a piece of paper. So, even if a person learns out of a book (and I hope it's a book written by an NDN or someone who lived with them), and knows their family heritage, that still makes them NDN.
Pretty much my answer is the same as nighthawk's, and NO, I don't expect for people to twist my words around and start arguing all over. I already heard your answers. If you want, you can either say "I agree" or "I disagree", without giving a lengthy explanation.
Eric
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All I can think of is Alexander the Great
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Macuski and the brand new member Starwolf have identical ISPs. It's possible he could still be living with his mother at age 29, and there are perfectly valid reasons for that. But "both of them" avoiding answering the questions about whether SW is his mother seems strange.
SW or Mrs Macuski or Eric Macuski, whichever you are, I'm apparently the "only one you will talk to."
Like others have already pointed out...
You don't just declare yourself an elder. No actual elder would do that.
There are also differences between an elder as Natives call them and what whites call an elder. Age by itself is not enough.
Especially since your ID suggests you may be only 45.
And while you may be an elder to Eric Macuski, or to others in your little community, you are not my elder, and would not be considered an elder by most Indians.
An elder would also not insist everyone shut up and accept what they say, as you come very close to saying.
That any of us in here even have to explain any of this to the two of you only says, once again, that you were both not raised among Indians.
And all of this little bit (like Eric's little sidetrack because he was naive enough to believe Nuage exploiters' libel) only gets us off the subject again.
My original post to Eric was not answered by Eric. I hope you, Eric, (and possibly you, Ms Macuski), understand basic points about politeness and patience in Indian cultures. There is much you (both?) have yet to learn.
And Eric, as for your last post, once again...
You imagine bashing where there is none, getting angry at us for things which others outside of here have done.
The points I said in my original post to you remain.
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Ah, yea, I live with my mother...that's why the same ISP. I would have replied to your post sooner if it wasn't for her wanting to post.
There's something called 'reading between the lines'...it's not imagining anything. There is such a thing as subtle comments. It's something that is learned in college, as you should know since you wrote a dissertation (which is a college thing).
Ah, we live in a mixed culture...white, black, AND NDN. You cannot just say that I don't live in just an NDN culture, when that culture is still around where I live. Perhaps, instead of researching NDN's in the military, you should start researching on the fact of why there is a struggle between east and west tribes/nations. Make a dissertation, and supply me when it gets published so I can read it and understand, if it is fictacious or not.
Oh, I would have been polite and patient with you all if the very FIRST topic about the Alleghenny Lenape, and me and my mother, weren't defamatory in nature. In fact, I wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for me doing another search on the Alleghenny Lenape and your site came up. Every single one questioned the Alleghenny Lenape, questioned me and my mother's ancestry, and now wolfhawaii calling me crazy. Of course I'd be angered...wouldn't you in my position? Oh, yea, you HAVE been in my position already, and according to you, many times.
Now, my mother would like to answer in a bit...after I read this PM.
Eric
Macuski, if you weren't so self involved, you'd realize two very obvious things:
No one has insulted you or done any wrong to you in here. Just the opposite, people have been amazingly patient and helpful with lots of good advice.
This is in spite of you repeatedly lashing at others in here for "wrongs" and "insults" that largely don't exist outside your imagination. The most obvious was the long harangue you directed at earthw7 for no reason, over things she never said, which you quietly said no more about once you realized she was right, that you'd exploded at her for something nonexistent.
It's pretty obvious you're not really arguing with us. You're arguing (and sometimes getting angry at us) for things you imagine others have done to you. "Oh those darn enrolled Indians are out to get us unenrolled ones!"
In most Indian forums, people would either have ignored you once they realized you weren't about to listen anyway, or they would have gotten fed up and simply driven you out.
But we haven't, largely because we take into account your youth and even more so, your lack of experience around Indian people.
Before you explode, realize that you and your mother are both of distant ancestry to most Indians. You were not raised within Indian cultures.
(And please, spare us any more explosions about "not your fault" or "blame the govt". We already know this. Can you imagine someone who was 1/8 Black showing up at a Black activist forum to lecture the people there about slavery and segregation? These are old facts we already know very well.)
If you had been, no one would even need to explain basic Indian ideas of politeness and patience, which you keep violating left and right. Understand that if you try the same behavior you've shown in here on other Indian forums, or esp in real life, again, you'll either be ignored or shown the door. If you were this rude at some powwows, security would already have hauled you out the gate by your shirt collar.
We here at NAFPS are far more used to people with distant ancestry, so that's why we've up to now cut you so much slack. But if you can't learn to first of all only hold people responsible for things they actually say and not what you repeatedly imagine they say, most of us will probably conclude we should not continue trying to get through to you. It's your choice.
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eric said:
If they are smaller, and still inter-marries with others that are similar, then they are Metis.
Uh, no. A Metis is a specific mix of heritage. A legal definition. Not mearly someone who is mixed blood. Most Metis people live in Canada. In the US, it has become fashionable for mixed bloods and thin bloods to call themselves Metis, but saying it does not make it true. There are some Metis people in this country. Mostly at Turtle Mountain in North Dakota but also some in Montana at Rocky Boy and also the Little Shell people. Get your facts straight.
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The metis are a nation in Canada, they are Cree, Chippewa, french not just any mixed blood.
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Alexander the Great
remember his mother convinced him he was a son of a god
damaged his brain
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1. Ah, we live in a mixed culture...white, black, AND NDN. You cannot just say that I don't live in just an NDN culture, when that culture is still around where I live.
2. Perhaps, instead of researching NDN's in the military, you should start researching on the fact of why there is a struggle between east and west tribes/nations.
3. Make a dissertation, and supply me when it gets published so I can read it and understand, if it is fictacious or not.
4. Of course I'd be angered...wouldn't you in my position?
5. Oh, yea, you HAVE been in my position already, and according to you, many times.
1. Living in an area that's less than a tenth of a percent Native doesn't make it an Indian culture.
I'm sure our Black members are thrilled that you now claim to have grown up in the Black culture also...
2. That doesn't exist. Obviously you've never been around many Indians. Mohawk and Lumbee routinely are side by side with Lakota and Apache. Such as in this very forum.
3. Why would I do a second dissertation and hand it over to you when you know so little about Indians?
4. I don't think I'd have ever been foolish enough to try and join a fake tribe, post photos of myself in poor regalia, etc. And I especially would not get angry and insult repeatedly people who took so much time to offer good advice.
5. No, I never have been, as I just said. And you've never been defamed for work as an activist, had your parents' lives threatened by the same libellers, faced numerous lawsuit threats, etc. So you have no understanding of my experiences. And worse, you often make little effort to understand before you go into your rants of misdirected anger.
Others may continue to try if they wish. I see no further point in trying to get through to you until you control your temper and knock off the insults. The next set of insults of yours get deleted. Any second set will get you sent to the corner to cool off. "Time out" as teachers do to elementary school kids.
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Yeah, he was weird, but he functioned at a much higher level, ended up being a extraordinary meglamaniac, not a co-dependent.
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OMG this thread gives me a headache.
I wonder how people can beleive the things they do, and join fake tribes.
Made me feel like pounding my head on the desk reading this thread!!!
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Tansi;
I agree that this has long since become absurd! As so often happens, when someone does not get recognition in a recognized Aboriginal community, this individual is now claiming to be Metis.
There are links to information about the Metis people, on this forum. I would suggest that this individual (and his mother) look at these.
I have just returned from Batoche, where we had the 38th annual "Back to Batoche" gathering, with fiddles, dancing and many opportunities to see thousands of Metis people getting together to share our vibrant Culture. For me, it was most uplifting when there were four generations of our family, on the dance floor. Seeing our Great Grandchildren learning about who we are, is wonderful.
At this gathering, there was also a book released, entitled "Medicines that Help Us" in which the Traditional Metis uses of plant Medicine is written about, from a Metis perspective, by Metis authors.
I don't think that I saw the people, in this thread there, although there were Metis people from both Canada and the USA, there. Some of the folks from Turtle Mountain, ND and Browning Montana always come to share with the rest of our families.
Ekosi
Ric
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First I have watched this thread as well as the other on the Allegheny Lenape. Over the many years that I have been associated with Native Americans two traits that I have observed to be the most important to their culture are patience and courtesy. I have yet to see an Elder speak harshly or cruelly to any one, period. It is a fact that we do have Elders who are members of this forum. They have addressed this subject appropriately. I regret that the message that was received was not the answer that was desired. I have been told that a young man , to the Cherokee , was not considered to have any weight in council till he was thirty. Or would not have been considered to be able to even qualify for Elder status until after fifty. Demands do not go over very well with in the Native community nor does anger or disrespect does it. Second, A card does not an IDN make it takes much, much more. After all there have only been cards for less than a century. We have gotten along very well without them for thousands of years have we not? Some amount of BQ of course but this is variable factor, there have been adoptions. Much more important is how does one relate to one's culture (Tribe) does one live it? Does one know their language? Does one give of his time and treasure for the welfare of the Tribe? Most important do the other members of the Native Community accept them as one of their own. Culture ,Community, and Family are the deciding factors would you not agree? I offer this opinion with kindness and respect to you all. I am as always "LittleOldMan"
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I don't doubt that the Alleghenny Lenape existed in Ohio...I don't doubt that the descendants still exist there. I believe you ....but somewhere along the line they gave up their community, their land, and their self-governance. What's left are remnants.
Sad, but true.
I grew up in PA, with the Lenape groups. Before the internet, they were the closet connection i had. Most of them probly meant well, but it turned out to be lies, half truths, hollywood stereotypes and this romantic idea of a simpler way of life..... it messed me up.
Took a long time to unlearn the crap and i had to have my *** handed to me a few times before i realized how much i had to learn. humiliating but necessary.
But I also learned that it doesn't have to be the "haves" vs. the "have nots".
Redhawk and those like him can learn to accept their situation and that it can be a positive supporting force. I would say: Enjoy the learning process and try to point others in the direction of authentic sources. Don't rush to be accepted or to lead anything . And actually give support to authentic causes when you can.
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Here's what I have to say ,What makes an NDN, it comes from the heart and knowing who ur Family lineiage is. Reconized or not if your Native ,aint noboby can change what you are . Im a first Nations humane being and proud of it ,
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- my .02 worth as a non-Indian: someone who can speak their language or knows some of it, who believes in their ceremony, who is connected to their land and has some people still on the land.
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I totally agree with you, but not being recognized even by Federal you have no access to no funds for helping to buy a home, helping me with college, nor can I even 'own' any bird of prey feathers and wear them proudly like any other NDN at powwows and gatherings - if ya do, you'll get busted by a ranger and be in jail.
It irritates me that I cannot wear something like feathers that are sacred to me, nor be able to get that bit of extra grants for college to help me graduate faster.
You are so true, State Recognition is pretty much a glorified way of holding a tribe together, or help the state with their tourism. But many non-recognized people (those who can prove their geneology and DNA together and have it match, like my mother and I) look towards State or Federal Recognition - and the latter I know we'll never get in because our ancestors never made it west to the reservations.
As to my regalia, I know...that was worse than one previously. Currently I'm working on a better looking regalia: a floral beaded vest, apron (and biker shorts to wear underneath), buckskin leggings and soon will buy puckered toe moccasins to make. Trust me, I'd never wear that wolfhide of mine in this 90 degree heat! lol. But, I'm pretty much doing research. Going to get a traditional bustle and roach for Men's Northern Traditional dancing next year at powwow, along with a breastplate (even though as far as I know the Lenape never wore breastplates like what we see). I'm still unclear, though, on what is traditional for an eastern woodland headdress, for Shawnee or Lenape (remember, i'm a mixture of Alaskan Athabaskan, Shawnee and Cree - and adopted by the Lenape). If you have some links to pictures and/or how to make them, please let me know. Oh, most of my regalia is cloth (green apron and vest), the only thing leather would be my leggings.
Getting back to the task at hand...I have tried to learn Lenape (a hard language to learn), learn customs and religion (this latter is REALLY hard, since there isn't any elders I know living around here but my own mother, and she wouldn't know), and I've got skills for traditional crafts - especially beadwork. Beading my vest in a floral pattern was something new to me, but it worked wonders.
Thank you for posting...you're the only one out of 58 people who seen my post and cared enough to answer.
Eric
After reading so many posts upon this site, I have so many questions to ask each and every one of you all. They're unbiased, meaning I'm not bashing any one person in particular. I'm just very curious on what all of you think.
Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes, how can you tell which one is legitiment or not? Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real? Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member (even I don't believe in charging a fee).
Also, it brings me to the next question: Who all on here are Federally Recognized? State Recognized, or not even recognized at all? Who are just plain 'white men'? (note: I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)
If you're unrecognized, how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band? Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing. As to State Recognized tribes, unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them. It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.
Which here's the follow up question: Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership? For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition. The Shawnee URB didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat). If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.
I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized. Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here. I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage. But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes. I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer. They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland. If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up. So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition.
Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized. If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few. For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.
I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them. It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.
Eric
Wrong forum Eric, but I'll try and tell you what I think on this subject. You seem to be focused on the governmental definitions of Indians. The more you learn about these definitions the more you'll learn that State Recognition is absolutely worthless. States come up with their own criteria for why they recognized an entity. On your group...the Allegheny Lenape, I've found no reference anywhere to them being state recognized. The only state recognized group I've found in Ohio is the URB of Shawnee. Pope Hawk would like people to believe that the tribe he's created is the exact same as any federally recognized tribe. What the URB is defined as in their state recognition, they are "descendants" of the Shawnee that existed in Ohio, but there's never been a governmentally recognized Shawnee tribe in Ohio. Just individuals identified and confirmed as Shawnee and the URB are individuals (not all of them because of their dubious membership) who descend from these people. That's the true nature of State Recognition for Pope Hawk's group.
He's very detailed and has a lot of references in letters and other things about the URB saved in files, but the existing Shawnee bands do not consider Pope Hawk as a leader and do not recognize the URB as a tribal entity. In short....they are not a tribe. If you look further into their legal existence you'll see this is in reality a non-profit organization who uses the words "nation" and "tribe" to define itself...nothing more. Pope Hawk himself is a character who's been on many people's watch list for a long time. The URB has been a revolving door of membership for a long time....some of the former members completely unhappy with members being asked to participate in ceremonies in the nude and other questionable practices. Pope Hawk also tends to stretch the truth. One of his latest claims is that the URB has never been given any grant money. A simple google search will turn up $60,000 donated to them in grant money in 2003.
Well enough rambling.
Forget governmental definitions. For me, being Indian starts with community and culture. Our language still exists and the language is the blueprint of anything I see as Indian. To speak the language means to think like the members of your community. Everything else falls from there.
I don't live in my community these days, but I'm tied to that land and the people. I'll always consider it home and I want to be buried there. I'm not descended from people that were Indian....I'm part of them....I don't shop for membership with tribes....I've never had a choice. Many people wanna glorify the existence of Indian people in this country, but the reality is...it's a tough existence. I'm treated like a foreigner in my own country. When I meet non-Indian people and they discover where I'm from they will tend to look at me and treat me like I grew up on a deserted island with a soccer ball for a pet. But no matter what the treatment is like....no matter how bad it can get....that's who I am and so I spend my life searching on ways to make things better for my community.
I think you really need to stop trying to find loopholes for a government definition of the Allegheny Lenape as a tribe. Your focus should be on your community. It should be on learning your language. It shouldn't be on trying to prove to anybody that you're Indian....you should just be Indian. I think you still have a lot to learn. I know several Lenape....they speak their language...they come from their communities. There's a cultural link between them and my tribe, but you exhibit none of the attributes I've learned to attribute to Lenape people. Your regalia is seriously flawed in that regard. Research the Lenape a little bit and you may learn some things. Learn the Gluskabe stories, learn your language. If you spend your life yelling to the world "I'm Indian", but you live your life as a non-Indian....you'll see that this is easily seen through.
Superdog
I know this thread is old, but I joined this group just because of what this person has said.
First, thanks for the kind comments people have left for me, and a big wave to those I know!
My real name is Keely, I use it all the time because it is who I am, and I would feel pretty silly going by a madeup name... guess I could go by "Gronk" since it was my nicname since I was very little. I am Shawnee, I am enrolled in a federally recognized nation.
Now for the reason I am posting here...
The top ten excuses people when they wannabe Indian...
10) Indians get free money every month
9) Indian dudes are so sexy with that long flowing black hair
8) Indian women are most curvy in their tight fringed buckskin dresses, and their long flowing black hair
7) All Indian men get to wear leggings
6) Get to wear cool feathers at your local ceremonial powwow
5) No taxes!
4) Get free health care
3) Get a free house from the government
2) Get to wear those real cool feathers at the local ceremonial powwow!
And the # 1 reason people wannabe Indian.... FREE EDUCATION!!
My son owes over 30k for his college education, I have health insurance, I have purchased my home, I pay taxes, we work for a living, we women are sexy and curvy, some of us have more curves than others, and in more places, not all of us carry feathers that are illegal for others..
I just wish, for once, one of these people will tell me why they think Indians get all these freebies, and if we are getting them, the gov is 50 years behind on my pay outs! Mostly, if people are getting these items free, tell me where to sign up... because someone forgot to tell me all about it..
Keely