Author Topic: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY  (Read 72591 times)

Offline VHawkins

  • Posts: 74
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« on: February 24, 2005, 10:15:52 am »
The website below states --

http://www.easterndoor.com/11-13/11-13-3.htm

. . .

The speakers will be introduced by Cherokee David Michael Wolfe, chairman of the Nuyagi Keetowah Society Council of Pomona, N.Y.

. . .

http://www.sandhillindians.net/info.htm

At the above link the same organization is mentioned --

The word Keetoowah refers to the Mother Mound of
the Cherokee culture. Tradition tells the Cherokee that Keetoowah Mound is the
navel of the earth from which the Cherokee people originated. Spiritually,
traditional Cherokee people refer to themselves as Keetoowah. Not all Cherokee
people are traditional, and therefore are not known as Keetoowah. All Keetoowah
are Cherokee however.

There are four officially recognized Keetoowah

Original Keetoowah Society, Nighthawk Keetoowah Society, Nuyagi Keetoowah Society, United Keetoowah Band

end of quote from that website

This website also speaks of . . . "These New Jersey Cherokee communities" . . .

United Keetoowah Band is a Federally recognized tribe whereas the others are something altogether different, and to lump them all together simply because they have the word "Keetoowah" in them is a bit odd -- like saying there are 2 official types of Orangemen, one Scots-Irish, the other an edible fruit. This was brought up in "Cherokee Culturalist" below on "more research needed". In looking into the man this "Nuyagi Keetoowah Society" was found online, and it seems a bit fishy.

Barnaby, please correct me if I have misstated my limited knowledge of your history over there.

I also sent this to a friend who knows more than I do about Stomps, and here is his reply --

Thanks for the info Vance.  I've never heard of these folks before.  To say you/ve been officially recognized by the "revered Keetoowah Society of the Cherokee Nation" is a bit of a stretch.  I'm not really up on Delaware or Lenapi history, migrations or the sort.  Mostly folks moved when they had to in order to provide for their families.  Back then, folks in the pioneering areas, white, black or red, were getting shoved farther west to maintain their lifestyle.  The idea of migrating east, all the way to New Jersey, well......., talk about a lifestyle change.  He talks about the whole thing kinda beginning with a funeral delegation for a Delaware Chief White Eyes,  bunch of folks went to a funeral, probably weren't taking their wives or children, and liked New Jersey so much (back then), that they just stayed, forgetting their wives and children back home, and just fit right into the New Jersey cultural and economic community!!!!!!  Hereeee Fishee Fishee.

end of direct quote

I really think there are no New Jesey or New York Cherokee or New Jersey (where ever these people are) Keetoowah and think this organizaion is not a "real" Keetoowah Society" at all, but rather a made up one.

I think it is a fraud, but wonder if anyone has ever heard of them?

vance

Offline JosephSWM

  • Posts: 174
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2005, 11:06:56 am »
Yes I have heard of them and I know the man, David Michael Wolfe, that claims to be their council chair. ince his name is now been brought up in tow others posts here - 'Native American Culturalist' and 'David Micheal Wolfe' - I will try to stick to the Keetowah topic.

About two years ago, maybe a little more, I met David Wolfe. He told me that he was the council chair of the Nuyagi Keetowah. He told me that there was another faction that lay claim to the same grounds and another man that lay claim to that title. He said that it was going to come to blows between the two.

Wolfe also informed me that the land their ground was on was given to them by a Mohawk family. I do not know if this is true so I will not post their names. Wolfe has a tendency for lying.

When I told him I had never heard of Keetowah in New York he told me about a larger Confederacy that exsisted with the Iroquois, the Cherokee, the Hopi, and another tribe I do not remember. He said these Cherokee (Nuyagi Keetowah) were the Guardians of some gate.

I asked him about the blood quantum required (I thought this to be true, and it may. Vance might know) and mentioned o him that he is only 1/4 Cherokee from what he told me. He said the blood quantum is wrong.

I asked him about having to be a Veteran to be a Keetowah and he said this was wrong.

He did tell me of one ceremony that they held there and a stomp and also a sweat lodge.

I am trying to remember other little details he shared. One is that the entrance to these grounds is gated and padlocked and that he and his faction wanted to post arm guards at the gate to keep the other group out.

I am going to try to find the names of the other faction now.

Vance, if there is other information that we have shared privately that you think I should post or forgot to post let me know.

Joseph

Offline VHawkins

  • Posts: 74
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2005, 08:41:51 pm »
If anyone is interested in Stomps go up to Tahlequah (NE Ok) on Labor Day (about 1Sep every year) and there are demonstration Stomps. At least there noone will steer you wrong.

Joe said --

He did tell me of one ceremony that they held there and a stomp and also a sweat lodge.

response --

If you read what Dr Allen said, Sweats are not Cherokee, and no Cherokee would ever think of mixing traditions with another Tribe.

vance

Offline JosephSWM

  • Posts: 174
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2005, 02:39:24 am »
I found another name in reference to this group. Whether he is on Wolfe's side of the fence or the other I do not. Not sure it matters at this point.

Ray 'Star Singer' Harrell. He is supposed to be thier 'fire keeper' and 'medicine priest'. Found this reference in the SECCI newsletter from 2003. Went to thier site and did a search on Nuyagi Keetowah.

Joseph

Offline VHawkins

  • Posts: 74
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2005, 03:16:02 pm »
http://www.secci.com/TL/2003/December.htm

Thanks Joe. I "googled up" that site.

Intereating they speak so much of the "drum", at a Stomp . . . not my experience . . .

Is that fella you mention, Ray 'Star Singer' Harrell, also  "Medicine Spirit Walker" who apparently wrote this material about Stomps?

I didn't want to write this group off as a "fraud" because there are still Cherokee in NC, and I don't know anything about them. I thought maybe this group might have some affiliation with them. I doubt it, but i would rather be cautious and ask for research than post this on the "fraud" board. I'd rather err on the side of caution. Maybe its wrong to do that, I don't know.

But after reading this use of the drum at Stomps, I am more inclined to think they have arbitrarily changed things maybe too much . . .

. . . seems fishier and fishier . . . hmmmm . . .

vance

Frederica Bickle

  • Guest
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2005, 07:27:00 pm »
Well, from what I remember Koguethagechton (Chief White Eyes) was principal Chief of the Lenape' in 1776. He was one of the ones that moved to Ohio before the Revolutionary War. To make a long story short he was probably assassinated in 1778 in Ohio. There are some that say he died of SmallPox, but it was still in Ohio. That's a long wander from Ohio to NJ. frederica

Offline JosephSWM

  • Posts: 174
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2005, 02:29:10 am »
Vance,

I don't know if Star Singer Harrell and Medicine Spirit Walker are the same. This drum stuuf and Stomps, is that at SECCI? I will have to go back and look. Maybe they just need lessons in make gourd rattles and turtle shell rattles.

At our next MD commission on Indian Affiars meeting I will ask about these two. Most all know (and don't care for) David Wolfe.

Joe

Offline VHawkins

  • Posts: 74
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2005, 11:48:12 am »
Thanks Frederica.

If White Eyes died in Ohio well that whole webpage is "busted!"

This is what I like to research, websites that give of a fake made up history to justify someone's fake made up tribe or genealogy. I am more comfortable researching and discussing history than religious beliefs.

Those fake histories have to be gotten rid of to see the truth. Unfortunately people associated with these groups might get stigmatized by association, and in reality they just didn't know any better. That's why these groups are so dangerous -- they do hurt innocent people.

Well Joe I meant to send to you and you alone that email that went to my Chickamauga history research group :) talk about humiliation . . . that's why i started that group, so as long as i knew what I meant I'd HAVE to continue, not be too embarrrased & just run off. :)

Well I deleted that post, but prob'ly too late. Anyhow, it confirmed one person who was once a friend of DMW (David Michael Wolfe) said he wished he'd never met him.

Another person I talked to on the phone said DMW really offended some people and by her association with the 2 of them  (the one who said they'd wished they'd never met DMW) she had been shunned by some because of her association with them . . . and she barely knew either of them. So apparently David has offended many people.

We all offend people once in a while, can't be helped unfortunately. But every person DMW has met that I know about, he has offended and turned them off . . . so him claiming to be a leader of this Nuyagi Keetoowah group doesn't look good for them.

But still if they are associated with the Georgia group, that Georgia group might still be legit, and it is the NY/NJ group that is full of it. I can't see Cherokee families living up there, and I if White Eyes died in Ohio . . . well that is all a made up history.

Same person above spoke of Six Nation people -- and she was sure of it -- had been coming to Georgia since the 30s to learn the songs they'd forgotten -- ya know Six Naitons have their version of stomps too. I will try and find out more about this, but I might not be able to. Joe, you might be able to find out more than I will, by being in Maryand and your better knowledge of groups back near the East Coast.

Joe, what do you know of this group in NJ or NY splitting away from the Georgia group?

vance


Offline VHawkins

  • Posts: 74
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2005, 12:17:21 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Eyes

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
White Eyes (c.1730–November 1778), was a leader of the Delaware (Lenape) people in the Ohio Country during the era of the American Revolution. Sometimes known as George White Eyes, his given name was something like Koquethagechton, which was rendered in many spelling variations. White Eyes was a tireless mediator in turbulent times, negotiating the first Indian treaties with the fledgling United States, always working towards his ultimate of goal of establishing a secure Indian territory. His death under mysterious circumstances during the American Revolutionary War may have been an act of murder covered up by United States officials.

Before the Revolution

Nothing is known about White Eyes's early life. He first enters the historical record near the end of the French and Indian War as a messenger during treaty negotiations. By 1766, he was apparently a tavern keeper and trader in a Delaware town on the Beaver River, a tributary of the Ohio River in present-day western Pennsylvania. This occupation suggests he may have been well suited for interaction between Indians and whites, though he could not read or write, and probably did not speak English—at least not well.

After the French and Indian War, white colonists began settling near the Delaware villages around Fort Pitt in western Pennsylvania, and so the Delawares removed to the Muskingum River valley in present-day eastern Ohio. By this time, many Delawares had converted to Christianity and were living in villages run by Moravian missionaries. The missionary towns also moved to the Muskingum, so that the Delaware people, both Christian and non-Christian, could stay together. Though not a Christian himself, White Eyes made certain that the Christian Delawares remained members of the Delaware nation.

White Eyes established his own town, White Eyes's Town, near the Delaware capital of Coshocton. In 1774, White Eyes was named principal chief of the nation by the Delaware Grand Council.

In the early 1770s, violence on the frontier between whites and Indians threatened to escalate into open warfare. White Eyes unsuccessfully attempted to prevent what would become Lord Dunmore's War in 1774, fought primarily between Shawnee Indians and Virginia. White Eyes served as a peace emissary between the two armies, helping to arrange the treaty that ended the war.

Revolution and death

When the American Revolutionary War erupted soon after Dunmore's War had ended, White Eyes was in the midst of negotiating a royal grant with Lord Dunmore that was intended to secure the Delaware territory in the Ohio Country. Dunmore was forced out of Virginia by American revolutionaries, and so White Eyes had to begin anew with the Americans. In April of 1776, he addressed the Continental Congress in Philadelphia on behalf of the Delawares, and eventually negotiated an alliance with the United States in 1778 at Fort Pitt. This treaty called for the establishment of a Delaware Indian state, with representation in the American Congress, provided that the Congress approved. As it turned out, White Eyes would be dead before the matter proceeded further, and the possibility of a Delaware Indian state died with him.

An article of the treaty called for Delawares to serve as guides for the Americans when they moved through the Ohio Country to strike at their British and Indian enemies to the north (in and around Detroit). Accordingly, in early November of 1778, White Eyes joined an American expedition as a guide and negotiator. Soon after, the Americans reported to the shocked Delawares of Coshocton that White Eyes had contracted smallpox and died during the expedition. After the death of White Eyes, the Delaware alliance with the Americans eventually collapsed.

Years later, George Morgan, Congressional agent and close associate of White Eyes, revealed in a letter to Congress that White Eyes had been "treacherously put to death" by American militiamen, and his murder had been covered up in order to prevent the Delawares from immediately abandoning the United States. No other details of what happened have survived; historians generally accept Morgan's claim that White Eyes had been murdered, though the reasons remain obscure. White Eyes had placed himself in harm's way during Dunmore's War to prevent bloodshed; a similar effort during the Revolution may have cost him his life.

White Eyes was married; his wife was reportedly murdered by white men in 1788. White Eyes's son, George Morgan White Eyes (1770?–1798) was educated at the College of New Jersey (later Princeton University) at the expense of the American government. [1] (http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/naind/html/na_010704_princetonuni.htm)

end of direct quote from website
=============================


Offline VHawkins

  • Posts: 74
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2005, 12:19:32 pm »
http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/ohc/history/h_indian/tribes/delaware.shtml

The Delaware Indians, also called the Lenape, originally lived along the Delaware River in New Jersey. They speak a form of the Algonquian Indian language and are thus related to the Miami, Ottawa, and Shawnee Indians. The Delawares are called "Grandfathers" by the other Algonquian tribes because they believe them to be the oldest and original Algonquian nation.

As British colonists came to North America, the Delawares fled westward from the land-hungry Europeans. While trying to escape the British colonists, the Delawares encountered the Iroquois Indians, who proceeded to conquer the Delawares and drive them further west. Some Delaware Indians came to live in eastern Ohio along the Muskingum River, while others settled in northwestern Ohio along the Auglaize River. Once in Ohio, the Delawares grew into a powerful tribe that could resist the further advances of the Iroquois.

Upon arriving in the Ohio Country, the Delawares formed alliances with Frenchmen engaged in the fur trade. The French provided the natives with European cookware and guns, as well as alcohol, in return for furs. This alliance would prove to be tenuous at best, as French and English colonists struggled for control of the Ohio Country beginning in the 1740s. As one European power gained control of the area the Delawares chose to ally themselves with the stronger party. This held true until the Treaty of Paris ended the French and Indian War. As a result of this war, the French abandoned all of their North American colonies to England. The Delawares henceforth remained loyal to the British and the American colonists until the American Revolution.

During the Revolution, the Delawares became a divided people. Many, especially those who had adopted Christianity and lived in the Moravian Church missions at Schoenbrunn and Gnadenhutten, attempted to remain neutral in the conflict. Other Delawares supported the English, who had assumed the role of the French traders at the end of the French and Indian War. These natives thanked England for the Proclamation of 1763, which prohibited colonists from settling any further west than the Appalachian Mountains, and feared that, if the Americans were victorious, the Delawares would be driven from their lands. Despite the Delawares' fears, many Americans hoped that they could count on the tribe as allies. As the war progressed, however, not all Americans trusted them. In 1782, a group of Pennsylvania militiamen, falsely believing the natives were responsible for several raids, killed almost one hundred Christian Delawares in what became known as the Gnadenhutten Massacre. Although these Delawares were friendly to the Americans, they suffered due to the fears of their white neighbors.

Following the American victory in the Revolution, the Delawares struggled against whites as they moved onto the natives' territory. In 1794, General Anthony Wayne defeated the Delawares and other Ohio Indians at the Battle of Fallen Timbers. The natives surrendered most of their Ohio lands with the signing of the Treaty of Greenville in 1795.

In 1829, the United States forced the Delawares to relinquish their remaining land in Ohio. They were sent to live in Kansas.

Famous Delaware Indians:

White Eyes
Netawatwees (Newcomer)
Events:
Pontiac's Rebellion (1763)
Lord Dunmore's War (1774)
Battle of Point Pleasant (1774)
American Revolution
Gnadenhutten Massacre (1782)
Harmar's Defeat (1790)
St. Clair's Defeat (1791)
Battle of Fallen Timbers (1794)
Places:
Big Bottom
Coshocton
Fallen Timbers
Fort Jefferson
Fort Laurens
Fort Meigs
Fort Recovery
Gnaddenhutten
Schoenbrunn
Treaties:
Treaty of Fort McIntosh (1785)
Treaty of Greenville (1795)
Treaty of Fort Industry (1805)
Treaty of Maumee Rapids (1817)
For Further Reading:

Kraft, Herbert C.
1987 The Lenape Indians of New Jersey. Seton Hall University Museum, South Orange, New Jersey.

Links:

Delaware Tribe: http://www.delawaretribeofindians.nsn.us/


=========================

By 1778 the Chickamauga Cherokee were fighting agains the US government again. If Cherokee attended his funeral, it would not have been from this faction of the Cherokee Nation, but rather those from the "Upper Towns".

Still why would his funeral have been in ew Jersey?? I suspect the ceators of this "myth" saw that his son attended Princton,Univercity and "assumed" the father, White Eyes, had died in New Jersey.

Looks like that Lenape/Cherokee New Jersey website is more "revisionist" history all the time . . .

It clearly lists his home as Coshocton. Well there is a Coshonton, Ohio, county seat of Coshonton County. From the above link the Lenape lived in Coshocton in Ohio.

Offline JosephSWM

  • Posts: 174
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2005, 03:20:52 pm »
Vance,

DMW has a way of putting off everyone he meets, and like your friend, I too was shunned by a few because of my knowing him.

Our commission meeting is on 3/7 next week. There will be a few people there that know DMW, of the nuyagi Keeowah, and also the Cherokee in Georgia. I will try to get more names and info. I will also take along a print out of the Sand Hill website to show them and get feedback. Many of the people in attendance at these meetings are 60 and above and know a lot of people and things.

Oh yeah, I was wondering why you sent that e-mail through the group and not privately LOL. But soemone else wrote to you about DMW and maybe others will too.

Also, thanks for the history you posted here. It seems that some do revise history to fit thier needs.

Joseph

Offline VHawkins

  • Posts: 74
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2005, 07:14:18 pm »
Joe said --

Oh yeah, I was wondering why you sent that e-mail through the group and not privately LOL

reply --

pure unadulterated ignorance. I hit "reply" to the wrong message.

Joe said --

But someone else wrote to you about DMW and maybe others will too.  

reply --

If it was Paige, she's my favorite cousin, Uncle Cecil's granddaughter . . .

Joe, there are many websites online that have "revised" history. Unfortunately, the worse of them seem to be about the Chickamauga Cherokee. so I suppose it is a little refreshing to see another tribe mentioned with faked history . . .

vance

Offline JosephSWM

  • Posts: 174
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2005, 03:14:56 am »
Here is some more info about the Nuyagi Keetowah Society

http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/articles/harrell.html

Again, as far as I know Harrell is in the opposite camp of David Wolfe.

Here is brief quote from the site. He says they are a scholars service organization. Well maybe they should have picked another name other than Keetowah. That is fraudulent right there. Al, I'm a bit angry and I think we should moive these folks up the ladder to frauds. Of course I need a few more cups of coffee to read all of this.


"Ray Evans Harrell is librarian of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society (Cherokee Scholars Society) in New York City.

STATEMENT:
As a member of the Keetoowahs (traditional Cherokees) I am bound by our covenant not to be political on Native Issues, however, as the librarian of our Society I am forced to challenge inaccuracies about us when they occur. This is in no way advocating any political program or agenda other than the true telling of the story about our people. We are not connected to any Government or Native American political organization. We are solely a scholar's service organization serving the traditional Cherokee people in the New York City Metropolitan area. We exist as guests of the Iroquois people and as a 501c-3 not for profit religious organization are pledged, as an organization, not to support any candidates or group for office in any government. "

Joseph

Offline JosephSWM

  • Posts: 174
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2005, 03:23:45 am »

Here is a listing and a name for a member who is thier "scribe"

http://cherokee.meetup.com/31/members/

Check this one out

http://www.templeofunderstanding.org/newSite/calendarOfEvents/default.php

"June 2005
June 25 Spiritual Journeys: Visit to the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society Stomp Ground
Click here for more information on this program."

I think it might be worth the ride to visit these so called stomp grounds. Vance, wanna fly in and carpool up there with me? Its only a 3 hour ride from my house. The click here for more information came up with an error.

Here they are listed as one of many charities that accept car donations

http://car-donation.eguidepro.com/new_york_car_donation_50.html


Joseph

Offline VHawkins

  • Posts: 74
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2005, 08:41:16 am »
Temple of understanding? Cheroke meetup group? car donations? And I just started looking into the first emanil you sent . . .

Joe I have been "timid" here for a couple of months -- well that is over, for now anyhow. I've been tip-toeing around not wanting to accuse the wrong people, making sure there is proof -- but . . .

I have other plans on the weekend of the 25th of June-- will tell ya about it in a private email -- but that is very interesting . . . I can't afford too many trips a year, but I really would like to see their version of a stomp . . . But maybe in the future -- if they still have meetings adn I know about them early enough.

It was interestng he said they were invited up there by the Iriquois.

People I know have said "they never heard of these people" and I am pretty sure no known North Carolina group wold act like this, also this group "likes to" claim as much credibility as they can. So if they were sanctioned by the NC Cherokee these NY/NJ  so-called Cherokee would mention it in a heartbeat.

They're fake & made up, pure and simple.

vance