NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: VHawkins on February 24, 2005, 10:15:52 am
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The website below states --
http://www.easterndoor.com/11-13/11-13-3.htm
. . .
The speakers will be introduced by Cherokee David Michael Wolfe, chairman of the Nuyagi Keetowah Society Council of Pomona, N.Y.
. . .
http://www.sandhillindians.net/info.htm
At the above link the same organization is mentioned --
The word Keetoowah refers to the Mother Mound of
the Cherokee culture. Tradition tells the Cherokee that Keetoowah Mound is the
navel of the earth from which the Cherokee people originated. Spiritually,
traditional Cherokee people refer to themselves as Keetoowah. Not all Cherokee
people are traditional, and therefore are not known as Keetoowah. All Keetoowah
are Cherokee however.
There are four officially recognized Keetoowah
Original Keetoowah Society, Nighthawk Keetoowah Society, Nuyagi Keetoowah Society, United Keetoowah Band
end of quote from that website
This website also speaks of . . . "These New Jersey Cherokee communities" . . .
United Keetoowah Band is a Federally recognized tribe whereas the others are something altogether different, and to lump them all together simply because they have the word "Keetoowah" in them is a bit odd -- like saying there are 2 official types of Orangemen, one Scots-Irish, the other an edible fruit. This was brought up in "Cherokee Culturalist" below on "more research needed". In looking into the man this "Nuyagi Keetoowah Society" was found online, and it seems a bit fishy.
Barnaby, please correct me if I have misstated my limited knowledge of your history over there.
I also sent this to a friend who knows more than I do about Stomps, and here is his reply --
Thanks for the info Vance. I've never heard of these folks before. To say you/ve been officially recognized by the "revered Keetoowah Society of the Cherokee Nation" is a bit of a stretch. I'm not really up on Delaware or Lenapi history, migrations or the sort. Mostly folks moved when they had to in order to provide for their families. Back then, folks in the pioneering areas, white, black or red, were getting shoved farther west to maintain their lifestyle. The idea of migrating east, all the way to New Jersey, well......., talk about a lifestyle change. He talks about the whole thing kinda beginning with a funeral delegation for a Delaware Chief White Eyes, bunch of folks went to a funeral, probably weren't taking their wives or children, and liked New Jersey so much (back then), that they just stayed, forgetting their wives and children back home, and just fit right into the New Jersey cultural and economic community!!!!!! Hereeee Fishee Fishee.
end of direct quote
I really think there are no New Jesey or New York Cherokee or New Jersey (where ever these people are) Keetoowah and think this organizaion is not a "real" Keetoowah Society" at all, but rather a made up one.
I think it is a fraud, but wonder if anyone has ever heard of them?
vance
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Yes I have heard of them and I know the man, David Michael Wolfe, that claims to be their council chair. ince his name is now been brought up in tow others posts here - 'Native American Culturalist' and 'David Micheal Wolfe' - I will try to stick to the Keetowah topic.
About two years ago, maybe a little more, I met David Wolfe. He told me that he was the council chair of the Nuyagi Keetowah. He told me that there was another faction that lay claim to the same grounds and another man that lay claim to that title. He said that it was going to come to blows between the two.
Wolfe also informed me that the land their ground was on was given to them by a Mohawk family. I do not know if this is true so I will not post their names. Wolfe has a tendency for lying.
When I told him I had never heard of Keetowah in New York he told me about a larger Confederacy that exsisted with the Iroquois, the Cherokee, the Hopi, and another tribe I do not remember. He said these Cherokee (Nuyagi Keetowah) were the Guardians of some gate.
I asked him about the blood quantum required (I thought this to be true, and it may. Vance might know) and mentioned o him that he is only 1/4 Cherokee from what he told me. He said the blood quantum is wrong.
I asked him about having to be a Veteran to be a Keetowah and he said this was wrong.
He did tell me of one ceremony that they held there and a stomp and also a sweat lodge.
I am trying to remember other little details he shared. One is that the entrance to these grounds is gated and padlocked and that he and his faction wanted to post arm guards at the gate to keep the other group out.
I am going to try to find the names of the other faction now.
Vance, if there is other information that we have shared privately that you think I should post or forgot to post let me know.
Joseph
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If anyone is interested in Stomps go up to Tahlequah (NE Ok) on Labor Day (about 1Sep every year) and there are demonstration Stomps. At least there noone will steer you wrong.
Joe said --
He did tell me of one ceremony that they held there and a stomp and also a sweat lodge.
response --
If you read what Dr Allen said, Sweats are not Cherokee, and no Cherokee would ever think of mixing traditions with another Tribe.
vance
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I found another name in reference to this group. Whether he is on Wolfe's side of the fence or the other I do not. Not sure it matters at this point.
Ray 'Star Singer' Harrell. He is supposed to be thier 'fire keeper' and 'medicine priest'. Found this reference in the SECCI newsletter from 2003. Went to thier site and did a search on Nuyagi Keetowah.
Joseph
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http://www.secci.com/TL/2003/December.htm
Thanks Joe. I "googled up" that site.
Intereating they speak so much of the "drum", at a Stomp . . . not my experience . . .
Is that fella you mention, Ray 'Star Singer' Harrell, also "Medicine Spirit Walker" who apparently wrote this material about Stomps?
I didn't want to write this group off as a "fraud" because there are still Cherokee in NC, and I don't know anything about them. I thought maybe this group might have some affiliation with them. I doubt it, but i would rather be cautious and ask for research than post this on the "fraud" board. I'd rather err on the side of caution. Maybe its wrong to do that, I don't know.
But after reading this use of the drum at Stomps, I am more inclined to think they have arbitrarily changed things maybe too much . . .
. . . seems fishier and fishier . . . hmmmm . . .
vance
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Well, from what I remember Koguethagechton (Chief White Eyes) was principal Chief of the Lenape' in 1776. He was one of the ones that moved to Ohio before the Revolutionary War. To make a long story short he was probably assassinated in 1778 in Ohio. There are some that say he died of SmallPox, but it was still in Ohio. That's a long wander from Ohio to NJ. frederica
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Vance,
I don't know if Star Singer Harrell and Medicine Spirit Walker are the same. This drum stuuf and Stomps, is that at SECCI? I will have to go back and look. Maybe they just need lessons in make gourd rattles and turtle shell rattles.
At our next MD commission on Indian Affiars meeting I will ask about these two. Most all know (and don't care for) David Wolfe.
Joe
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Thanks Frederica.
If White Eyes died in Ohio well that whole webpage is "busted!"
This is what I like to research, websites that give of a fake made up history to justify someone's fake made up tribe or genealogy. I am more comfortable researching and discussing history than religious beliefs.
Those fake histories have to be gotten rid of to see the truth. Unfortunately people associated with these groups might get stigmatized by association, and in reality they just didn't know any better. That's why these groups are so dangerous -- they do hurt innocent people.
Well Joe I meant to send to you and you alone that email that went to my Chickamauga history research group :) talk about humiliation . . . that's why i started that group, so as long as i knew what I meant I'd HAVE to continue, not be too embarrrased & just run off. :)
Well I deleted that post, but prob'ly too late. Anyhow, it confirmed one person who was once a friend of DMW (David Michael Wolfe) said he wished he'd never met him.
Another person I talked to on the phone said DMW really offended some people and by her association with the 2 of them (the one who said they'd wished they'd never met DMW) she had been shunned by some because of her association with them . . . and she barely knew either of them. So apparently David has offended many people.
We all offend people once in a while, can't be helped unfortunately. But every person DMW has met that I know about, he has offended and turned them off . . . so him claiming to be a leader of this Nuyagi Keetoowah group doesn't look good for them.
But still if they are associated with the Georgia group, that Georgia group might still be legit, and it is the NY/NJ group that is full of it. I can't see Cherokee families living up there, and I if White Eyes died in Ohio . . . well that is all a made up history.
Same person above spoke of Six Nation people -- and she was sure of it -- had been coming to Georgia since the 30s to learn the songs they'd forgotten -- ya know Six Naitons have their version of stomps too. I will try and find out more about this, but I might not be able to. Joe, you might be able to find out more than I will, by being in Maryand and your better knowledge of groups back near the East Coast.
Joe, what do you know of this group in NJ or NY splitting away from the Georgia group?
vance
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Eyes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
White Eyes (c.1730–November 1778), was a leader of the Delaware (Lenape) people in the Ohio Country during the era of the American Revolution. Sometimes known as George White Eyes, his given name was something like Koquethagechton, which was rendered in many spelling variations. White Eyes was a tireless mediator in turbulent times, negotiating the first Indian treaties with the fledgling United States, always working towards his ultimate of goal of establishing a secure Indian territory. His death under mysterious circumstances during the American Revolutionary War may have been an act of murder covered up by United States officials.
Before the Revolution
Nothing is known about White Eyes's early life. He first enters the historical record near the end of the French and Indian War as a messenger during treaty negotiations. By 1766, he was apparently a tavern keeper and trader in a Delaware town on the Beaver River, a tributary of the Ohio River in present-day western Pennsylvania. This occupation suggests he may have been well suited for interaction between Indians and whites, though he could not read or write, and probably did not speak English—at least not well.
After the French and Indian War, white colonists began settling near the Delaware villages around Fort Pitt in western Pennsylvania, and so the Delawares removed to the Muskingum River valley in present-day eastern Ohio. By this time, many Delawares had converted to Christianity and were living in villages run by Moravian missionaries. The missionary towns also moved to the Muskingum, so that the Delaware people, both Christian and non-Christian, could stay together. Though not a Christian himself, White Eyes made certain that the Christian Delawares remained members of the Delaware nation.
White Eyes established his own town, White Eyes's Town, near the Delaware capital of Coshocton. In 1774, White Eyes was named principal chief of the nation by the Delaware Grand Council.
In the early 1770s, violence on the frontier between whites and Indians threatened to escalate into open warfare. White Eyes unsuccessfully attempted to prevent what would become Lord Dunmore's War in 1774, fought primarily between Shawnee Indians and Virginia. White Eyes served as a peace emissary between the two armies, helping to arrange the treaty that ended the war.
Revolution and death
When the American Revolutionary War erupted soon after Dunmore's War had ended, White Eyes was in the midst of negotiating a royal grant with Lord Dunmore that was intended to secure the Delaware territory in the Ohio Country. Dunmore was forced out of Virginia by American revolutionaries, and so White Eyes had to begin anew with the Americans. In April of 1776, he addressed the Continental Congress in Philadelphia on behalf of the Delawares, and eventually negotiated an alliance with the United States in 1778 at Fort Pitt. This treaty called for the establishment of a Delaware Indian state, with representation in the American Congress, provided that the Congress approved. As it turned out, White Eyes would be dead before the matter proceeded further, and the possibility of a Delaware Indian state died with him.
An article of the treaty called for Delawares to serve as guides for the Americans when they moved through the Ohio Country to strike at their British and Indian enemies to the north (in and around Detroit). Accordingly, in early November of 1778, White Eyes joined an American expedition as a guide and negotiator. Soon after, the Americans reported to the shocked Delawares of Coshocton that White Eyes had contracted smallpox and died during the expedition. After the death of White Eyes, the Delaware alliance with the Americans eventually collapsed.
Years later, George Morgan, Congressional agent and close associate of White Eyes, revealed in a letter to Congress that White Eyes had been "treacherously put to death" by American militiamen, and his murder had been covered up in order to prevent the Delawares from immediately abandoning the United States. No other details of what happened have survived; historians generally accept Morgan's claim that White Eyes had been murdered, though the reasons remain obscure. White Eyes had placed himself in harm's way during Dunmore's War to prevent bloodshed; a similar effort during the Revolution may have cost him his life.
White Eyes was married; his wife was reportedly murdered by white men in 1788. White Eyes's son, George Morgan White Eyes (1770?–1798) was educated at the College of New Jersey (later Princeton University) at the expense of the American government. [1] (http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/naind/html/na_010704_princetonuni.htm)
end of direct quote from website
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http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/ohc/history/h_indian/tribes/delaware.shtml
The Delaware Indians, also called the Lenape, originally lived along the Delaware River in New Jersey. They speak a form of the Algonquian Indian language and are thus related to the Miami, Ottawa, and Shawnee Indians. The Delawares are called "Grandfathers" by the other Algonquian tribes because they believe them to be the oldest and original Algonquian nation.
As British colonists came to North America, the Delawares fled westward from the land-hungry Europeans. While trying to escape the British colonists, the Delawares encountered the Iroquois Indians, who proceeded to conquer the Delawares and drive them further west. Some Delaware Indians came to live in eastern Ohio along the Muskingum River, while others settled in northwestern Ohio along the Auglaize River. Once in Ohio, the Delawares grew into a powerful tribe that could resist the further advances of the Iroquois.
Upon arriving in the Ohio Country, the Delawares formed alliances with Frenchmen engaged in the fur trade. The French provided the natives with European cookware and guns, as well as alcohol, in return for furs. This alliance would prove to be tenuous at best, as French and English colonists struggled for control of the Ohio Country beginning in the 1740s. As one European power gained control of the area the Delawares chose to ally themselves with the stronger party. This held true until the Treaty of Paris ended the French and Indian War. As a result of this war, the French abandoned all of their North American colonies to England. The Delawares henceforth remained loyal to the British and the American colonists until the American Revolution.
During the Revolution, the Delawares became a divided people. Many, especially those who had adopted Christianity and lived in the Moravian Church missions at Schoenbrunn and Gnadenhutten, attempted to remain neutral in the conflict. Other Delawares supported the English, who had assumed the role of the French traders at the end of the French and Indian War. These natives thanked England for the Proclamation of 1763, which prohibited colonists from settling any further west than the Appalachian Mountains, and feared that, if the Americans were victorious, the Delawares would be driven from their lands. Despite the Delawares' fears, many Americans hoped that they could count on the tribe as allies. As the war progressed, however, not all Americans trusted them. In 1782, a group of Pennsylvania militiamen, falsely believing the natives were responsible for several raids, killed almost one hundred Christian Delawares in what became known as the Gnadenhutten Massacre. Although these Delawares were friendly to the Americans, they suffered due to the fears of their white neighbors.
Following the American victory in the Revolution, the Delawares struggled against whites as they moved onto the natives' territory. In 1794, General Anthony Wayne defeated the Delawares and other Ohio Indians at the Battle of Fallen Timbers. The natives surrendered most of their Ohio lands with the signing of the Treaty of Greenville in 1795.
In 1829, the United States forced the Delawares to relinquish their remaining land in Ohio. They were sent to live in Kansas.
Famous Delaware Indians:
White Eyes
Netawatwees (Newcomer)
Events:
Pontiac's Rebellion (1763)
Lord Dunmore's War (1774)
Battle of Point Pleasant (1774)
American Revolution
Gnadenhutten Massacre (1782)
Harmar's Defeat (1790)
St. Clair's Defeat (1791)
Battle of Fallen Timbers (1794)
Places:
Big Bottom
Coshocton
Fallen Timbers
Fort Jefferson
Fort Laurens
Fort Meigs
Fort Recovery
Gnaddenhutten
Schoenbrunn
Treaties:
Treaty of Fort McIntosh (1785)
Treaty of Greenville (1795)
Treaty of Fort Industry (1805)
Treaty of Maumee Rapids (1817)
For Further Reading:
Kraft, Herbert C.
1987 The Lenape Indians of New Jersey. Seton Hall University Museum, South Orange, New Jersey.
Links:
Delaware Tribe: http://www.delawaretribeofindians.nsn.us/
=========================
By 1778 the Chickamauga Cherokee were fighting agains the US government again. If Cherokee attended his funeral, it would not have been from this faction of the Cherokee Nation, but rather those from the "Upper Towns".
Still why would his funeral have been in ew Jersey?? I suspect the ceators of this "myth" saw that his son attended Princton,Univercity and "assumed" the father, White Eyes, had died in New Jersey.
Looks like that Lenape/Cherokee New Jersey website is more "revisionist" history all the time . . .
It clearly lists his home as Coshocton. Well there is a Coshonton, Ohio, county seat of Coshonton County. From the above link the Lenape lived in Coshocton in Ohio.
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Vance,
DMW has a way of putting off everyone he meets, and like your friend, I too was shunned by a few because of my knowing him.
Our commission meeting is on 3/7 next week. There will be a few people there that know DMW, of the nuyagi Keeowah, and also the Cherokee in Georgia. I will try to get more names and info. I will also take along a print out of the Sand Hill website to show them and get feedback. Many of the people in attendance at these meetings are 60 and above and know a lot of people and things.
Oh yeah, I was wondering why you sent that e-mail through the group and not privately LOL. But soemone else wrote to you about DMW and maybe others will too.
Also, thanks for the history you posted here. It seems that some do revise history to fit thier needs.
Joseph
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Joe said --
Oh yeah, I was wondering why you sent that e-mail through the group and not privately LOL
reply --
pure unadulterated ignorance. I hit "reply" to the wrong message.
Joe said --
But someone else wrote to you about DMW and maybe others will too.
reply --
If it was Paige, she's my favorite cousin, Uncle Cecil's granddaughter . . .
Joe, there are many websites online that have "revised" history. Unfortunately, the worse of them seem to be about the Chickamauga Cherokee. so I suppose it is a little refreshing to see another tribe mentioned with faked history . . .
vance
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Here is some more info about the Nuyagi Keetowah Society
http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/articles/harrell.html
Again, as far as I know Harrell is in the opposite camp of David Wolfe.
Here is brief quote from the site. He says they are a scholars service organization. Well maybe they should have picked another name other than Keetowah. That is fraudulent right there. Al, I'm a bit angry and I think we should moive these folks up the ladder to frauds. Of course I need a few more cups of coffee to read all of this.
"Ray Evans Harrell is librarian of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society (Cherokee Scholars Society) in New York City.
STATEMENT:
As a member of the Keetoowahs (traditional Cherokees) I am bound by our covenant not to be political on Native Issues, however, as the librarian of our Society I am forced to challenge inaccuracies about us when they occur. This is in no way advocating any political program or agenda other than the true telling of the story about our people. We are not connected to any Government or Native American political organization. We are solely a scholar's service organization serving the traditional Cherokee people in the New York City Metropolitan area. We exist as guests of the Iroquois people and as a 501c-3 not for profit religious organization are pledged, as an organization, not to support any candidates or group for office in any government. "
Joseph
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Here is a listing and a name for a member who is thier "scribe"
http://cherokee.meetup.com/31/members/
Check this one out
http://www.templeofunderstanding.org/newSite/calendarOfEvents/default.php
"June 2005
June 25 Spiritual Journeys: Visit to the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society Stomp Ground
Click here for more information on this program."
I think it might be worth the ride to visit these so called stomp grounds. Vance, wanna fly in and carpool up there with me? Its only a 3 hour ride from my house. The click here for more information came up with an error.
Here they are listed as one of many charities that accept car donations
http://car-donation.eguidepro.com/new_york_car_donation_50.html
Joseph
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Temple of understanding? Cheroke meetup group? car donations? And I just started looking into the first emanil you sent . . .
Joe I have been "timid" here for a couple of months -- well that is over, for now anyhow. I've been tip-toeing around not wanting to accuse the wrong people, making sure there is proof -- but . . .
I have other plans on the weekend of the 25th of June-- will tell ya about it in a private email -- but that is very interesting . . . I can't afford too many trips a year, but I really would like to see their version of a stomp . . . But maybe in the future -- if they still have meetings adn I know about them early enough.
It was interestng he said they were invited up there by the Iriquois.
People I know have said "they never heard of these people" and I am pretty sure no known North Carolina group wold act like this, also this group "likes to" claim as much credibility as they can. So if they were sanctioned by the NC Cherokee these NY/NJ so-called Cherokee would mention it in a heartbeat.
They're fake & made up, pure and simple.
vance
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Here is the address of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society.
http://www.nonprofitdata.com/organization-details.phtml?cmd=133569930
I tried clicking on the link for more information about the June 25th event at thier stomp grounds. I guess I will write or call the Temple of Understanding to get the adress of the grounds. Might be worth the trek beforehand to see what is there.
As I was browsing through the many names listed in the Temple of Understanding's Council of Trustees I came across this one - Chief Jake Swamp. Found the following at speakoutnow.org
"Chief Jake Swamp (Wolf Clan of the Mohawk Nation, Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy) is a respected spiritual leader who has participated in crucial Native American struggles including the 1970 takeover of the Bureau of Indian Affairs office in Washington DC, settlement talks after the Wounded Knee occupation and the 1978 Longest Walk. He has represented Indian peoples in international forums including the United Nations. In addition to sitting on the grand council of the Iroquois Confederacy, Swamp served as Director of the Akwesasne Freedom School. For the past two decades, he has traveled extensively, planting trees for peace and spreading a powerful message of peace and environmental education. "
I do know that these stomp grounds were given to this group by a Mohawk family but I doubt the connection. I don't know a thing about Jake Swamp or speakoutnow.org maybe someone else does. I just was looking at the trustee names for anything familiar or "Indian" like.
Joseph
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Found this interesting post about the history of the Keetoowah
http://www.mail-archive.com/futurework@scribe.uwaterloo.ca/msg03427.html
Here are som quotes from it pertaining to the Nuyagi Keetoowah.
* 1928: NUYAGI KEETOOWAH BEGINNINGS; Sacred Fire secretly brought East to NJ. 6 year old future Nuyagi Keetoowah Founder designated future Keeper of Fire.
* 1972: TEMPLE ADANELO ADANUTO IS FOUNDED by future Nuyagi Keetoowah Founder as an umbrella "Temple" for traditional religion without police harassment.
* 1983: FIRST OPEN NUYAGI KEETOOWAH SOCIETY (NKS) unity meeting held in NYCity under Adanelo Adanuto
* 1984: FIRST NKS COUNCIL determines the public climate now right for acceptance of NKS open incorporation.
* 1990: STOMP GROUND FUND BEGUN & FIRST NOT-FOR-PROFIT STRUCTURE for NKS recognized by NYState.
* 2000: COMMUNITY, BRIGHT FUTURE WITH NEW KEETOOWAH RELIGIOUS SITE.
I may have posted this one already.
http://cherokee.meetup.com/31/members/
Here is one of the names listed.
"Yansv Gvnage (Black Buffalo) - writer, filmmaker and Scribe of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society."
Googled his name and came up with nothing else.
Joseph
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Joe, it's my understanding (I could be wrong) that Six Nations also have stomps, but they are not the same as Cherokee, but similar. But the word "Keetoowah" clearly implies Cherokee. But when you mention "Mohawk" it's out of my area of limited farmiliarity.
So I am stumped . . . They seem to be documented back many decades. A better person than I will have to figure it out. :)
You just put this squarely in the "more research needed" category, more than ever, for me anyhow.
"Temple of Understanding" sounds very "new age-ish", tho. Nothin' "Keetoowah-ish" 'bout that term. But when you are talking about Eastern Band Cherokee, or Mohawk -- well that's a style of baseball I never played. I never got outa little league.
vance
Vance
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Hoepfully within the next week I will have some first hand knowledge of this history which I don't think is real, just my gut feeling. Iroquois stomps are very different than ours.
I think Pat holley may also know a bit about this group and the Mohawk connection.
You know this quote reminds me of that movie about how they picked the Dalai Lama ( I think thats who it was)
* 1928: NUYAGI KEETOOWAH BEGINNINGS; Sacred Fire secretly brought East to NJ. 6 year old future Nuyagi Keetoowah Founder designated future Keeper of Fire.
When I am done with this post I am going to write to someone or maybe many someones down in NC and see what they know. Of course if this fire was a secret than maybe no one will know. Its just this is kinda like a thorn in my side that needs to be taken care of, one way or the other.
Joseph
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Vance,
I started e-maiing to various people in NC and OK in the tribal governments asking for help in clarifying whether or not any of this is real. I decided that since Chief Smith's e-mail address was there that it coudn't hurt to e-mail him to so I did.
I never did hear back from the Delaware in OK about the Sandhill Indians.
Of course I will let you know what responses, if any, I get.
Joseph
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Joe, way to go! :)
Chad'd be interested as I believe it was his family that brought the Sacred Fire to Oklahoma from back East . . . I might be wrong about that tho. He'd definitely be interested in someone claiming they'd "stolen" it.
Did you try Mike Miller? He "might" respond, sure hope he will . . . It's part of his job to look into things like this I believe. But when he is busy he might not say anything. He's at MMiller@cherokee.org. . . show him everything you found. I suspect he'll look into it, or get it to folks that will.
As for Pat Holley. He has always been a good to me. I am not comfortable in bringing up his name without a link leading directly to him.
There is a link to DMW as plain as day, and I personally know DMW visited Six Nations where he might have met these Mohawk himself -- no need to go through Pat who is Tuscarora, not Mohawk.
Or maybe he realized too late DMW was using him . . . We all learn. I personally am gonna give Pat the benefit of the doubt. I think his heart's in the right place . . .
vance
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Sorry Joe,
I reread your post. All you said was Pat might know something about it, not that he was responsible for it.
My mistake.
Vance
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I received one reply so far from all my e-mails. It was from the Cherokee Genealogical society in OK. They said they have never heard from my group.
My friend I talked with yesterday, I gave hi the Sandhill Indian info and the info that contains the "history" of the Nuyagi Keetoowah. I am waiting to hear what he thinks.
I can telkl you this though. He too does not like DMW. He knows that DMW not only has two different state enrollment cards, but has heard that somehow he got a "Mohawk" card. Yes, a fraudulent card.
This Keetoowah in NY really bothers him. He does not believe it to be real. He may go up with me on 6/25 if he can to see what we can see. He also said that Hranell claims to be their leader and so does DMW and the two are at odds with eah other.
Vance, I thought Pat may have some insight about DMW. I hold nothing against Pat since you shared with me things that cleared a lot up.
Joseph
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I received this reply from Wyman Kirk from the Cherokee Nation in OK to my inquire about the Nuyagi Keetoowah. I asked his permission to post it here and he most graciously said yes. A follow up letter from him follows this one.
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Hi Joseph,
Your inquiry came to me, and I'll respond as best I can. I believe another colleague of mine will be writing you as well (he has more detailed information, I believe, so I asked him to write you).
As to the specifics of your inquiry, I can answer some parts of it, but others will need to address what I am unable to provide info on myself (which is where my colleague, Richard Allen, will probably fill in the blanks for you). We do have several valid "Keetoowah Society" groups within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation. The most notable, and historic, of these is the Keetoowah Society connected to the Stokes Smith Ceremonial Grounds near Vian, Oklahoma. While the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society website I saw last year is no longer in operation, I do not think that they have desisted in their claims of being "acknowledged" or somehow validated by the Stokes Grounds Keetoowahs. On that specific point, I can completely and wholeheartedly state that they have no authorized, valid, or legitimate association, connection, or affiliation to the Keetoowah Society. From my research I found that the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society (Nuyagi, as an FYI, means "New York") calls their grounds "Stokes" as well.
The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society, in my opinion, practices cultural appropriation at its worst; it is cultural theft, cultural abuse, and highly offensive to those who had to fight to preserve the traditional religion, traditional medicine, and traditional ways of life.
I have also seen mention of a "Dr" Sam Beeler who is a prominent member of the Sand Hill Band of Cherokee and Lenape (also known as the Sandhill Band of Indians of New Jersey), a group who had crossover members (including Beeler) with the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society. Beeler makes claims that he is a "traditional" Keetoowah, and he was listed at one time as the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society medicine man (or great elder or something of the like). Beeler makes claims to some sort of connection to the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society and the grounds at Stokes Smith near Vian, Oklahoma. This is patently false, and Beeler has no status as a member of any kind to Stokes Ceremonial Grounds (my uncle, Snow Fields, was the Secretary of the Stokes Grounds Keetoowahs until his passing last year, and one of his job duties was to keep the member roles). I can assure you that Sam Beeler was not now, or ever, a member of Stokes Grounds; nor did he ever apply for membership (to obtain membership, you must speak Cherokee fluently, have an unbroken matrilineal line/have a clan, and agree to the basic tenets of the religion). I can also say that he was not now, or ever, a member of the other Keetoowah grounds in Oklahoma. (Here's a link to info on Beeler: http://sussex.edu/newsandevents/2003/11/200311073.htm). One final note on Beeler, he is apparently an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation and claims he is a fluent speaker of Cherokee (this information does nothing to counter the arguments against his claims, though I have my doubts as to his degree of fluency in the Cherokee language).
(continued)
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I'll state once again, for the record: The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society is not recognized in any way, shape, or form as a legitimate Cherokee organization in terms of a connection to the Oklahoma-based Keetoowah Society. Any claims that the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society makes about being "recognized" (or any language to the similar) by the Cherokee Nation, by any of the "real" Keetoowah Society fires in Oklahoma, is blatantly false and wholly untrue. It is entirely possible that Sam Beeler and/or other members of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society have been to Stokes Grounds or Redbird Smith Grounds, but in no case would they have been granted membership or acknowledged as belonging to a "sister" or "joint" fire or grounds. This is, quite simply, not possible or plausible.
If the members of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society form an organization using the name Keetoowah, wanting to learn about Cherokee history, and culture . . . to that I would say no one would probably object (well, there will always be those who object, but in general, most would not make an issue of it all). The particular problem with the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society is threefold: (1) Claims to some link between them and the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society, (2) Claims to "traditional" medicine knowledge, and (3) Claims to "cultural" Cherokee knowledge in terms of religion, beliefs, etc. Again, there is no objection to people wanting to find out about their past, their genealogy, the culture and history of their ancestors. In fact, I think such actions and self-seeking is a good thing, a valued thing, and I certainly encourage any such actions on behalf of individuals or groups devoted to this nature of activity. The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society, however, clearly crosses the line in terms of "appropriate" action by making false claims to legitimate themselves and their practices.
If this has answered your question, then I'm glad. If not, please feel free to contact me at this email address or the other contact info below. Thanks,
Wyman Kirk
As an FYI, it's only in English translation that we use the word "Keetoowah." The actual term in Cherokee is "Anigiduwagi" which in rough translation means "People of Keetoowah." One of the principle tenets of the original Keetoowah Society (as evidenced by the Redbird Smith and Stokes Smith Grounds) is the use of the Cherokee language as THE language of ceremonial grounds. It is even written in the by-laws of the society that English is prohibited at the grounds (though this is an informal rule, and people who speak English aren't thrown out or anything). My point here is just to say that any group making claims to the "Keetoowah Society" (at least in terms of the ceremonial grounds Keetoowahs) that does NOT use Cherokee as their language cannot, by this simple definition, be valid.
Finally, I think researching and documenting valid groups, shamsters, good people, fakes, and what-not is a very good thing. I applaud you and your associates' thoughtful, deliberate, and research based approach to this important topic.
Wyman Kirk
Cherokee Nation
Phone: 918.456.0671 xt: 2645
wkirk@cherokee.org
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Sam Beeler is on the David Michael Wolfe side of this issue. He is listed in an e-mail from Wolfe as one of the council members.
Joseph
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This is the second letter that Wyman sent to me. I edited out a few things in the first few sentences but the rest is in its entirety.
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Hi Joseph,
No, I wouldn't mind if you posted part or all of the email. I will also note that I am not an expert of any kind, and that while I stand by what I said, I am certainly willing to listen to others much wiser than me on this (or any other topic). All of which is to say that if my friend and colleague Richard, or someone who does have recognized/valid authority on the matter (someone like Crosslin Smith for example, an Oklahoma Cherokee medicine man connected to the ceremonial grounds), has something different to say, then I would defer to their expertise. I feel pretty "confident," though in regard to the statements I made, at least in regard to the Stokes Grounds and Redbird Grounds.
Anyway, let me thank you and your colleagues again for the work you're doing. At Cherokee Nation, there are three of us who sort of monitor for Cherokee groups and individuals, and there always seem to be new ones popping up here and there. Most of them are valid, good, groups with good people, and if possible, we direct them to the Cherokee National Historical Society for information. However, there are a small number out there that tend to jump on our radar, and we sometimes feel compelled to address them in some form or fashion. This is not something we do well, however, because I do not feel that it is really the "business" of the Cherokee Nation, as a government, to either recognize or repudiate Cherokee "groups" or "individuals." CN only steps in (usually) when there are legal matters at stake (for instance, we had a situation where an unrecognized and sketchy Cherokee group wanted to take over all Trail of Tears historic sites in their state, and they wanted to offer their OWN interpretation of Cherokee history and culture as part of the site; while we did not object to them having their own version of their history and culture, we did object to them trying to take over federal and state historic sites to do it). My point is only to say that while the Cherokee Nation is often limited in addressing some of these groups, that is a tremendous source of power for those Cherokees who monitor this area like you and your friends. You can do what we really cannot, which is to provide information about those who abuse our history, our culture, and our way of life. Again, I thank you for this contribution you provide. If we, or I, can be of assistance, please feel free to let us know.
Wyman Kirk
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Joe, you struck oil! a gusher . . .
These people are definitely FRAUDs pure and simple. I'm done with wavering on that issue.
David Michael Wolfe ought to go on the fraud list too.
What I don't understand the Mohawk connection --I was thinking 100 percent "fraud" and then that connection threw me for a loop.
I wonder if they knew what DMW was up to -- prob'ly not, just him seekin' recognition from as many peope as he could con into recognizing him. They were probably deceived, too.
I sure wish I could go up there with you to confront them.
Ya did good, Joe. :)
vance
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Vance,
Thanks. I am so glad that Wyman allowed be to post his letters. It is inportant for those Cherokee people trying to find there way and for those that want our ways to stay true and intact. I am looking forward to his collegues response to my inquiry (he said he would know more details.)
DMW connections to the Mohawk are that he makes a claim that a distant relative might have been Mohawk. Also, he is friends with a Mohawk who lives here in Baltimore.
I know DMW is enrolled with the Echota Cherokee of Alabama and the Southeastern Cherokee Council of Georgia. I think (just my opinion) that he was using this person (the Mohawk) to try and get some kind of federal recognition for himself.
Vance, thanks for your caution in all of this, you helped me to be a bit more methodical than I normally might have been. Being patient ain't easy.
Joe
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Well that explains the Mohawk connection. I wonder if he knows DMW and his pals are making all this stuff up . . . you'd think he'd know tho that there are no New York Cherokees.
Joe, you might as well put a lot of this information we have uncovered under "known frauds" if you have time. Unfortunately I don't have the time. Either under DMW or Nuyagi Keetoowah Society or both.
Vance
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I'll tell Pat to post Wyman Kirk's entire first letter as a warning under Known Frauds. Then the link can be posted anywhere useful, or cited to anyone you think needs to see it. You might want to pass it along to papers or groups in and arund Pomona.
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I just received a most detailed letter from Dr. Richard Allen concerning the Nuyagi Keetoowah and the Sand Hill Indian webiste. I asked his permission to post it here and he said yes. Much of what was in the first paragraphs was already stated by Mr. Kirk but I did include Dr. Allen’s first paragraph about the NKS. The rest of what is posted here concerns the Cherokee in New Jersey. In the second paragraph here he is referring to this website I sent him.
www.sandhillindians.net/info.htm
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Hello Joseph:
We are familiar with this fraudulent group—one of more than 200 with which we are familiar through our own research, the research of certain colleagues regarding these fraudulent groups or through inquiries such as yours. The so-called Nuyagi Keetoowah Society has no relationship with any of the legitimate Cherokee entities as they suggest. There is no relationship between this group and the Original Keetoowah Society and the Nighthawk Keetoowah Society who exist only within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. It would be unthinkable for these spiritual entities to be removed from their original grounds. Anyone associated with the Original Keetoowah Society and the Nighthawk Keetoowah Society would find it unreasonable to consider diluting the Cherokee culture and spiritual essence of their religion by establishing a branch of their society so far away from Cherokee country.
I note that the web site claims: “The Indian community in Monmouth county New Jersey pre-dates the revolutionary war…The Cherokee community of New Jersey has always, and continues today, to be indicative of transplanted Cherokee people…In 1841, Principal Chief John Ross established a clear presence of substantial Cherokee community in New Jersey through his correspondence and other documentation.???
In actuality, members of the Ross family (John Ross’ nieces and nephews and his son) attended school at the Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey in the latter 1830s and early 1840s. Many of whom, Principal Chief Ross communicated with through personal correspondence and visits.
Daniel Ross Hicks (son of John Golden and Elizabeth Ross—John Ross’ sister and brother-in-law) attended Lawrenceville from 1840-42 and delivered valedictory address at Lawrenceville, 1842. Eliza Jane Ross (daughter of John Golden and Elizabeth Ross) attended Moravian Female Academy, Bethleham, Pennsylvania, in 1840s. George Washington Ross (son of John Ross and Elizabeth [Quatie] Brown Henley Ross) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1840-42;
(continued)
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John Ross, Jr. (son of Ross and Mary Brian Stapler Ross) attended an academy at Nazareth, Pennsylvania, and Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1862-64; John McDonald Ross (son of Lewis and Fannie Holt Ross) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1837-38 and was valedictorian in 1838 and may have attended Princeton University; Robert Daniel Ross (son of Lewis and Fannie Holt Ross) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1838-40; Silas Dinsmore Ross (son of John Ross and Mary Brian Stapler Ross) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1840-42; William Potter Ross (son of John Golden and Elizabeth Ross—John Ross’ sister and brother-in-law) attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey, 1838-39.
So, several younger members of the Ross family attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey in the latter 1830s and early 1840s. Attendance at a school does not constitute “a clear presence of substantial Cherokee community in New Jersey??? as claimed by the so-called Nuyagi group.
This group also suggests that visits by representatives of the Cherokee people constitute migrations. Cherokees and other tribal leaders were likely to call on one another to visit or to pay respects to those who have passed on as they do now. This does not constitute a migration. The group uses whatever it can to try to validate itself as a Cherokee tribal community—it is not.
I believe that both the Cherokee and Muscogee (Creek) people “Indianized??? New York as Nuyagi—it does not mean “place of rocks.??? There is only one recognized Delaware Tribe in Oklahoma and they reside at Anadarko, Oklahoma among several plains tribes. There was a contingent of Delaware who came into the Cherokee Nation in 1867 and agreed to become Cherokee tribal members.
I believe that Wyman Kirk has already addressed the Keetoowah issue completely and with more information and comprehension than I could provide.
Dr. Richard L. Allen
Policy Analyst
Cherokee Nation
http://www.nj.com/newhomes/communities/index.ssf?/realestate/newhomes/lawrencetownship.html
The school was founded in 1810 as the Maidenhead Academy and run under such names as Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School for some 70 years. It wasn't until 1883 that it was "refounded" and became known as The Lawrenceville School. Today, the school is a national historic landmark.
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In a follow up letter in which Dr. Allen said I could post the letter he wrote:
You may post but I neglected to indicate that my source for determining that the younger Ross students attending Lawrenceville came from The Papers of Chief John Ross, Vol. I, G. E. Moulton, Editor, University of Oklahoma Press, 1985. So, I would ask that you include that as my source. Also provide me a link to your site or to the site to which you are posting.
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Thanks Joe.
vance
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Vance,
I heard back from Cherokee friend who go up with me on 6/25. He wishes to remain anonymous. It is his understanding that there are now two real factions of the Nuyagi Keetoowah. Ray Harnell being the head of the one in NY city and DMW along with Sam Beeler head up the other faction in Pomona, NY.
Joe
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Osiyo,
My name is Ray Evans Harrell and I am from the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society, Inc. I have posted on the Introductions part of this web site and if you have other questions I would suggest that you ask them of me and not of people who I know and don't respect or who have never met me but make judgements based upon mirrors of their own minds. The simplest act of respect is to talk to a person rather than about that person.
I called the High School Counselor Dr. Richard Allen and he did not convince me that he was equipped to make the judgements he made. There are many Cherokee communities in Oklahoma and they are varied. Sterotypical statements are what drive the children away since they don't care to live "out of time."
We suggest an alternative that allows people who leave home to still practice their faith. People are in all levels of self-understanding and many who went to schools on Indian land had all languages deemed :"foreign" forbidden to them. That tendency is still being driven by a Cherokee member of the Oklahoma legislature from Comanche with her "English only" bills. Some, including Dr. Allen, did not have the advantage of having their language and some were not in jail or collaborating with the government and taking roll numbers.
This complex situation demands that you understand completely since you have appointed yourselves judges. Does that not mean that you should at least conduct a "discovery phase" including witnesses before you hold a trial?
I am very busy as I am not a professional Indian but earn my living in the world and practice my religion privately. It is not only a faith but a religion because it brings people like myself, who are away from home and family, together to worship in the present in the traditions of our Cherokee families. That has nothing to do with casinos or government land or funds. We made another choice four generations ago and we still are.
Thank you for your attention and I am at your service,
Ray Evans Harrell
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Howdy Ray,
Thank you for your reply. I agree to a degree -- people ought to hash out their differences in person. But with so many people making wild claims on the internet, this is hard to do. I alternately say yall had ought to have talked to Oklahoma Keetoowah before claiming that yall had their support. It is obvious to anyone that you don't have their support and I suggest yall quit advertisin that you do.
You say you -- "called the High School Counselor Dr. Richard Allen . . ." son, that is a childish attitude. Can you just address the issues? Thanks. I'll listen to your answers.
i.] Yalls website mentions a funeral for a Delaware Chief and say many Cherokee came up there for the funeral and stayes. Can you provide documentation for this claim? If you'll read the posts here, you'll see that Delaware Chief died in Ohio and was buried there. Can you show equally valid proof that Delaware chief died in New Jersey? Can you provide evidence any Cherokee moved up there at that time?
ii.] Why haven't yall ever contacted the Oklahoma Cherokee letting them know yall are in New Jersey with your "proof"?
As for the comment about "mirrors in their own minds" I'll assure you I am objective and in making that comment, am I seein' just the shinin' glimmer of a mirror? Well, I can understand yuo bein defensive . . .
iii.] you said -- There are many Cherokee communities in Oklahoma and they are varied. Sterotypical statements are what drive the children away since they don't care to live "out of time."
Well I live in Oklahoma as have my ancestors since about 1828 (I have proof, with a coupe of periods missing, one in Ark and another in Tx). In the physical universe where we live -- it is physically impossible to live "outside of time". Can you elaborate?
iv.] you said -- We suggest an alternative that allows people who leave home to still practice their faith.
reply -- no one opposes that. Your website claimed yall had the blessings so to speak of the "revered" Keetoowah Society (as yall put it) of Oklahoma (paraphrasing) and yall obviously don't. Can you explain?
v.] you said -- That tendency is still being driven by a Cherokee member of the Oklahoma legislature from Comanche with her "English only" bills.
Ray, the last time my direct ancestors came back to Indian Territory in the late 1880s they lived near what became Duncan (Duncan was just an empty spot on the map when they moved there) in the Chickasaw Nation. My grandparents were married at Loco, Chickasaw Nation in 1904, 3 years before sattehood. It wasn't 10 miles from the little town of Comanche, which was on the border of the Chickasaw Nation and the Comanche Tribe. I can drive there in maybe 75 or 90 minutes -- I have been there and know the little town. Who are you talking about that is in the Ok Legislature? Can you give me some details.
vi.] you said -- Some, including Dr. Allen, did not have the advantage of having their language and some were not in jail or collaborating with the government and taking roll numbers.
reply -- I can't get a handle on what you are trying to say. Which language? what jail? You are talking about something that you have obviously left out. Please elaborate.
vii.] you said --This complex situation demands that you understand completely since you have appointed yourselves judges. Does that not mean that you should at least conduct a "discovery phase" including witnesses before you hold a trial?
reply -- someone placed faulty information online, ie -- yall are accepted by the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society (paraphrasing) and that is why yall came up here, I am pretty sure. When you make claims online you might not realize that some people who know of the REAL Keetoowah might be lisnin . . . :) In teh big city, in NY and NJ where there are no or few Cherokee, you are far removed and think it is save to talk about a few thousand people isolated in small towns and farms of rural NE Oklahoma, and you can claim to be some of them. Who will ever know?
I too am worried about accusing innoscent people, and this was put here is "research needed" and not immediately on the "fraud" site.
viii.] You say you are Cherokee. Who are your Cherokee ancestors? Can you prove it or are you claiming it? I trace my ancestors to Brown and Guess (great great grandparents were David B Brown 1822-1865 and Hariet Guess 1818-1886) and no we are not enrolled either, and no, we can not prove they are Cherokee, but he have collected a lot of evidence. Also have evidence of Monacan/Saponi. I'd like to know somehting about the person I am talking to.
vance
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howdy Ray,
I just read your introduction, and that brought up a couple of more questions.
viii.] Are you saying that those stomp grounds were given to the Cheroke people for the use of Indian people in the New York area? Whose name is on the title for the the land? Who ever's name is on it, that's who owns it. How is the U. N. involved in this and why doesn't the Cherokee Nation know that this has been given to them, if indeed it has?
viii.] From reading the websites it seems DMW is claiming he is in control of your group. Are yall jointly in control?
ix.] Also in your introduction it said you were from Oklahoma. What part? I was born in Okmulgee, have cousins in McAlister (not the prison!), Lone Wolf, Lawton, Frederick, a sister in Tulsa, Ft Smith, and I could go on and on -- name a town and I have probably had a relative that lived close by at one time.
x.] Lastly, If you have been to Stomps in Oklahoma, why don't the stomp grounds in Oklahoma recognize you? It bothers me that you called yourself a "high priest" was it? I find it hard to believeyou are properly trained without having been properly trained, in the manner Dr Allen suggested. You say you took over that role in 1988? Have these grounds been in existence since before that time?
I believe your organization is not recognized by anyone in Oklahoma and that yall should not attempt to gain credibility in New York by claiming you had the blessings of Oklahoma Keetoowah. That and you claimin to be a "high priest" -- those are my main gripes with yall.
This is America and anyone is free to be a self-appointed "guru" I suppose, if they are of that mindset, but you shouldn't claim any affiliation with any well known Keetoowah Society if you don't have any affiliation with them.
I don't think that's ethical. Wha-d'ya think?
vance
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Mr. Harrell,
I'm Al Carroll, one of the co founders of NAFPS. I'll try to address some things you raised both here and when you introduced yourself. First, I'm glad you came here so we can (hopefully) clear this up if possible. And for the most part you are being more polite than some we've had come here in the past.
I've known Vance and Joseph online for some time, and I don't see any sign they are being malicious or careless. On the contrary, they posted the inquiry about your group under Research Needed for good reason. Notice that it is one of the longer threads. They discussed back and forth for quite some time, nearly a month, before drawing any conclusions. And that was only after a series of emails with the CNO and others.
There's a lot of things the CNO govt can rightfully be criticized for, but having people who don't know anything about the traditions isn't one of them. Neither is having bad intentions when it comes to protecting those traditions. Dr. Richard Allen has been incredibly helpful to both us at NAFPS and many others concerned about spiritual exploitation and misrepresentation.
The Cherokee are afflicted with more shame-on imposters posing as medicine people as well as more people with distant or lost connections to their traditions than perhaps any other nation. Wanting to be part of those traditions is not surprising and is certainly commendable. But that desire should not excuse ethical breaches. And it should not excuse Nuage ideas leaching into traditional beliefs, ie goofy Nuage phrases like "living out of time" or "mirrors of their own minds".
And on a side note, do you realize most of your opera co website is down?
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Osiyo Vance,
I'm going to leave this on the list in the service of transperancy. Normally I would answer personal questions personally. I'm aware of the problem of the internet because the quotes of my posts to the economist's Futurework List are now a part of the internet search engine mythology.
I went to bed last night and surprisingly when I got up this morning it had snowed and I can't get that white out of my hair. I have to go the VA and see if they can do anything about it but I suspect it's just there and I will have to accept it.
I appreciate your letter and spirit and will answer it in parts as I must teach, rehearse students for auditions and (seriously) go to the VA today.
Just read your more aggressive second letter and the webmaster's as well. If you google my name you will see a lot of what I do. Yes the website is incomplete because we are opening a new Blog that will be interactive in American Arts and are slowly reconsidering our considerable monthly expense for this one.
You would also find an entry on google for my late father who was the first Doctor's degree counselor at College High in Bartlesville and facilitated that work with minorities and upgraded the program in the 1960s and 70s. So calling Allen a High School counselor is what he said to me and a degree in psychometrics or counseling is not a bad thing but a good thing. I could not, however, imagine the attitude of “judgment of people you don't know??? as being a scholarly one. Chief Ross of the UKB called here years ago and questioned us and we were open and told him who we were and there was no issue. There is a difference in Indian Country between a question and a challenge. We also sent our scholar's newsletter several year's ago to the CNO and Charlie Soap and had several conversations with him as a friendly hello but Oklahoma's business is their own as is ours. They don't need us mucking around in it and having "opinions" about them. I got that in Oklahoma myself.
You may even know my Creek relatives from Okmulgee and I know that the CNO has had dealings with my relatives in Muskogee. I tried in the Bird administration to make peace with them but that administration was too uppity to consider doing such a thing. Now the average Cherokee is paying for it. I will check with the relatives and connect you off list if they agree but let me just say that the politics of government involvement is not unfamiliar to me. I was born in Ada and grew up in Picher and my father was the School Superintendent who had to deal with the government for the schools and Johnson O'Malley.
As for nuage. I would suggest that speaking metaphorically is not the sole property of the children of Fritz Perls. They learned it from Indian people and traditional Ojibwa people in Canada at that.
Must go now but will answer all of the questions as my time permits.
oneh dodada gohv'i
Ray Evans Harrell
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Hello Ray,
I to am busy but for now have only one question for you, a simple one, I think. Where does David Michael Wolfe fit into all of this?
Joseph
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Osiyo Joseph,
He doesn't.
We don't mention his name because he was disgraced in his relationship with our Founder and my adopted Father who took him into his home as an apprentice. Whatever he did, it was bad enough to be shunned and considered dead by my Father. That was all before 1983.
We abide by that ceremonial that was done long ago. As far as we are concerned, that's all there is.
The person you asked about doesn't exist as far as the Nuyagi Keetoowah Societies and Grand Council is concerned. Maybe he's a ghost.
Our council has written a letter stating that we are the only Nuyagi Keetoowah Societies, Inc and we have the Stomp Ground passed to us by the Indian League of the Americas when they disbanded. (That is probably the root of the "Mohawk" story since their President was Mohawk, but the Indian League was started by a Cherokee and had every tribe represented. Our Founder was once a member of the Indian League as well.)
We mean no ill will and everyone has to listen to their own vision given by the Creator and walk their path but this is ours and we keep a very close watch on it both spiritually and legally.
Donada Gohv'i
Ray Evans Harrell
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Osiyo,
Here is the second installment for Vance. REH
Vance:
Thank you for your reply. I agree to a degree—people ought to hash out their differences in person. But with so many people making wild claims on the internet, this is hard to do.
REH
I have never made claims nor has the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society or their brother Societies as incorporated as a traditional religious community in NYState and as certified by the IRS as same. That means we are afforded the same rights as any religious institution in America, no more nor less.
Vance
I alternately say yall had ought to have talked to Oklahoma Keetoowah before claiming that yall had their support. It is obvious to anyone that you don’t have their support and I suggest yall quit advertisin that you do.
REH
See above. We don’t convert, proscelytize or advertise anything except notifying people who are our community and our neighbors about our schedule. We consider that the Creator sends to us who is supposed to be there and accept that as a rule. To change, convert or persuade is to interfere with the Creator’s path for each person. We share but we do not interfere. If it is not right for a person to be with us, they are usually too uncomfortable to stay. If it is then we are doing what we are told to do. No more, no less.
Vance:
You say you—“called the High School Counselor Dr. Richard Allen . . .??? son, that is a childish attitude. Can you just address the issues? Thanks. I’ll listen to your answers.
REH:
I did mention my biological father and that snow in the hair in my earlier post. I will just refer to that.
Vance:
i.] Yalls website mentions a funeral for a Delaware Chief and say many Cherokee came up there for the funeral and stayes. Can you provide documentation for this claim? If you’ll read the posts here, you’ll see that Delaware Chief died in Ohio and was buried there. Can you show equally valid proof that Delaware chief died in New Jersey? Can you provide evidence any Cherokee moved up there at that time?
REH:
As I said, that is not on our website nor in our history presented to the IRS for approval. It's my understanding you didn't get onto our website since it is for our members only. We have taken it down to make that even more secure and to make sure that it doesn't end up in anyone's search engine. Today we send our material out by personal e-mail that is not searchable. I don’t have a copy of what you are speaking of. We are the only recognized, state approved and IRS registered Nuyagi Keetoowah Societies, Inc. Anyone else is wishing.
Vance:
ii.] Why haven’t yall ever contacted the Oklahoma Cherokee letting them know yall are in New Jersey with your “proof????
REH:
Just because someone in the CNO government doesn’t know us doesn’t mean that someone else there doesn’t. This is the fourth Cherokee government I have known and each time, like the US government, they have to be retaught. We did send our NKS Scholar’s Journal to the Mankiller government and as I said we had a friendly relationship with them.
However, when Cherokee government officials and arts groups came to (and come to New York), they never bother to let us know they are coming nor to acknowledge our presence in any way. I accept that they don't know anyone exists who isn't a part of the Dawes "collaborator's and criminal's" rolls but there are about 8 million Indian people in America who are culturally NOT European and who don't care now to have anything to do with governments. People to people is different but governments just take up time and eat up resources. They also aren't very good at connectivity and their influence on Indian Arts has been disastrous. That does not help us in dealing with the little piles of baby doo that is often left when someone comes to our hometown here and makes a "splash" and leaves. I’m constantly bothered with writing to editors, etc. (like this site) and correcting mis-steps and mis-statements that have been made about native children and our worship here. We too have families and have elected to give up the government relationship in favor of traditional government amongst ourselves. We don't authenticate them nor do they us. A little Atahuna would be good here.
To be continued for lack of space.
Ray Evans Harrell
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Hello again Ray,
I like to do the one question at a time. But before I get to my question I must preface it with a few personal comments.
I was taught, by mother, gandmother, grandfather, real and extended aunts and uncles and elders within my Clan that there is only one Sacred Fire. That this fire of my people has burned since the beginning and will continue forever. Part of this fire burns in North Carolina and part of it burns in Oklahoma now. This fire is the heart of my people, not to be hidden but shared by all Cherokee.
Then why did I find this site with your post? The most baffling of quotes is the date quote below.
http://www.mail-archive.com/futurework@scribe.uwaterloo.ca/msg03427.html
"* 1928: NUYAGI KEETOOWAH BEGINNINGS; Sacred Fire secretly brought East to NJ. 6 year old future Nuyagi Keetoowah Founder designated future Keeper of Fire."
Why would part of the Sacred Fire be brought in secret? Why doesn't anyone else, meaning other Cherokee, know about this except your group? Logically speaking, if part of this fire was brought there (and there is no indication if it came from NC or OK) it seems like it was stolen. Thats just logic, why the secrecy.
Joseph
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Osiyo Joseph,
I will answer your question with a question. Why did all of those ceremonials that were meant for the day, have to be moved to the night? Both the Stompdances and the Sundance in the Northern Plains?
You asked:
" Why would part of the Sacred Fire be brought in secret? Why doesn't anyone else, meaning other Cherokee, know about this except your group? Logically speaking, if part of this fire was brought there (and there is no indication if it came from NC or OK) it seems like it was stolen. Thats just logic, why the secrecy."
Are you aware of the "American Indian Religious Crimes Codes of 1883." What was the purpose of those codes and how long were they in existence? Religion connected to the ownership of the land and native prosperity. I would recommend reading the Lake Mohunk reports of Henry Dawes. Angie Debo's "And Still the Waters Run" has a cogent quote from the report that sets the context for the anti-religion laws that were in existence until 1978. And of course Ward Churchill the harassed one has written about it as well.
But my father taught me about it. Our history is very important and it was suppressed in the schools and still is. That is a lot of what the Ward Churchill stuff is about. The issue should be what he says and not who he is. The diversion is meant to diffuse the history but my father taught me to see past that. My father was a graduate history student of Edward Everett Dale at OU in the same class as Angie Debo. I believe my Uncle Clay from Muskogee was as well. I know the history was suppressed because I was taught in government programs. Both the history and non-English languages were forbidden. My family taught me the history.
Essentially Redbird Smith was harassed and thrown in jail for praying although they used other excuses. That is why the current chief is a Cherokee. Smith had the roll number forced on him in jail as with the common criminals as well. Religious oppression in this area in the East was tremendous and so bad that my adopted Father created a "Temple of the Great Spirit" Church incorporated in Ohio, New Jersey, New York, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Tennessee where native people could have their ceremonials traditionally and without police harassment. He also started a Cherokee/Choctaw School for traditionals in Southern Ohio with the Overhill Band.
Word back here has it that traditional religion is under great pressure today in Oklahoma from the Christian churches. Our people who have gone to Oklahoma have enjoyed the Cherokee Festival but we are not Christian here. We are Keetoowah and it feels a little strange to hear all of those hymns. This is our faith and religion. We find the mix of European religion with Cherokee language and culture to be confused. However, we do not judge since we cannot know the mind of the Creator on these issues. We do not argue religion and we believe everyone is given a personal path and it is a part of their destiny that they discover what that is. But we have heard that the traditional Priests themselves have been under pressure to convert. I would point out that we out here in Delaware and Iroquois country have just as many myths about Oklahoma as you do about us. I would also add that the Cherokee presence here is documented through the state of New Jersey and the New Jersey museums where the records go back beyond the last century. It was interesting the comments about John Ross that one of the CNO people made. John Ross was well known in Trenton during the Civil War and his relatives wrote music for concerts performed before the New Jersey Attorney General. I believe that is in the Ross papers that we have here in our library. I'm an artist not a historian as my father was and Dr. Sam Beeler is. He told me that the material about the Sand Hill was well documented and is available on their web site with ties to the Smithsonian as well.
But if you just listen to me, this is all hearsay. Why not do a little personal research for yourselves and stop talking to people so far away. I am not Sand Hill although it is my understanding that the migration is mentioned in the local papers from that time. Personally I trust the oral tradition around here much more than the papers which are often compromised by an agenda. But it is not proper for me to speak for them so don't take my word for it.
Actually there are many manifestations of that original fire. There is a fire in Southern Ohio, one here in the NY Metropolitan area, one in Georgia, and I understand there are grounds in Alabama and elsewhere as well. I would like to believe that there is still a fire in the area around that lake that covers Chota.
You know all grounds are individual and yet one. The people who need to know, know us. Those who don't, talk about it.
I mentioned the oppression on that Futurework economics list to prove to them that we have always been here and still are. It seems that our own people need to learn that lesson as well. I was on that list to teach people about Art and maybe a little about our people. A lot of good has come from that list for people both here and in Canada.
I hope this program will not cut this off. I will continue with Vance's questions.
Ray Evans Harrell
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CONTINUED:
Vance continued:
As for the comment about “mirrors in their own minds??? I’ll assure you I am objective and in making that comment, am I seein’ just the shinin’ glimmer of a mirror? Well, I can understand yuo bein defensive . . .
REH:
As has been said so often "One may think they understand what they heard or read but if they are to know what was meant they have to ask the author." Or just poke a hole in the mirror.
Vance:
iii.] you said—There are many Cherokee communities in Oklahoma and they are varied. Sterotypical statements are what drive the children away since they don’t care to live “out of time.???
Well I live in Oklahoma as have my ancestors since about 1828 (I have proof, with a coupe of periods missing, one in Ark and another in Tx). In the physical universe where we live—it is physically impossible to live “outside of time???. Can you elaborate?
REH:
"outside of time" refers to the serious expression of a people in the world, i.e. its culture and art. All culture and art is site/time specific. Old art teaches us about our ancestors and other cultures. Contemporary Art is a pursuit of the values of the artist and culture in the present. Being "outside of time" means that someone does not know themselves but is just imitating. The first rule is "know yourself."
Vance:
iv.] you said—We suggest an alternative that allows people who leave home to still practice their faith.
reply—no one opposes that. Your website claimed yall had the blessings so to speak of the “revered??? Keetoowah Society (as yall put it) of Oklahoma (paraphrasing) and yall obviously don’t. Can you explain?
REH:
You are confused. Our website is closed. Some of our members dance in Oklahoma and elsewhere and have friends there. You may believe you know what they meant but you should ask them if that was what they said. Being from Oklahoma I know better than to use someone else to validate myself. They don't do that and neither do we. Each ground is separate and we are not the only stompground to have the relationship with both State and IRS. I know of at least one other.
Vance:
v.] you said—That tendency is still being driven by a Cherokee member of the Oklahoma legislature from Comanche with her “English only??? bills.
Ray, the last time my direct ancestors came back to Indian Territory in the late 1880s they lived near what became Duncan (Duncan was just an empty spot on the map when they moved there) in the Chickasaw Nation. My grandparents were married at Loco, Chickasaw Nation in 1904, 3 years before sattehood. It wasn’t 10 miles from the little town of Comanche, which was on the border of the Chickasaw Nation and the Comanche Tribe. I can drive there in maybe 75 or 90 minutes—I have been there and know the little town. Who are you talking about that is in the Ok Legislature? Can you give me some details.
REH: Last year I spoke with an Oklahoma Senator who was from Comanche who had proposed an English only statute in the State legislature. Because I am in the Arts and encourage people to know many languages for living in the modern world, I called her and questioned her. I mentioned Indian languages and she said that she was Cherokee and she still though English should be the official language. Since you are from there. Look her up. I don't remember her name.
Vance:
vi.] you said—Some, including Dr. Allen, did not have the advantage of having their language and some were not in jail or collaborating with the government and taking roll numbers.
reply—I can’t get a handle on what you are trying to say. Which language? what jail? You are talking about something that you have obviously left out. Please elaborate.
REH:
Study the history of the Keetoowahs or just study the great Willard Stone family. They were not government collaborators in the death of the nation and they were not in jail to be given roll numbers. Now that is harsh but no more harsh that the "official" government's harassment of Cherokee groups around the country through their officers like Kirk and Allen. There are many serious traditional and learning Cherokee people out here beyond the limits of government connections. It may very well be time for a new Four Mother's Society that goes to the Four Directions and gathers the dis-enfranchised Indian People into some sort of entity not unlike what Smith and others had at the turn of the last century. It's a great history filled with genuine heroes. It doesn't only belong to the authorized but to all Cherokee people.
Continue for one more: REH
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Vance said:
vii.] you said—This complex situation demands that you understand completely since you have appointed yourselves judges. Does that not mean that you should at least conduct a “discovery phase??? including witnesses before you hold a trial?
reply—someone placed faulty information online, ie—yall are accepted by the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society (paraphrasing) and that is why yall came up here, I am pretty sure. When you make claims online you might not realize that some people who know of the REAL Keetoowah might be lisnin . . . In teh big city, in NY and NJ where there are no or few Cherokee, you are far removed and think it is save to talk about a few thousand people isolated in small towns and farms of rural NE Oklahoma, and you can claim to be some of them. Who will ever know?
REH:
Vance that is insulting. Are you challenging me?
As for the big city. There are more Indian people in the New York Metropolitan area than in any area of comparable size and population in the country. And a very large percentage of them are Tsalagi from Oklahoma, North Carolina and Tennessee. There are so many Cherokee here that a Cherokee desk was proposed in the state capital.
If they are traditional then they are Keetoowah because that is the name of the religion in English. I don't know why its OK for people to be Christian and still Tsalagi but urban Keetoowahs can't speak English. If the folks at home in those little towns give up their Baptist relatives and challenge the culture of those relatives, then I will quit speaking English. Of course I mean this with a light touch. Baptists should be Baptist if that is what they have been given and they are family. The world is multi-lingual and we should be at least as smart as the French who seem to be able to speak other languages and still keep their French culture, religion and art.
Vance:
I too am worried about accusing innoscent people, and this was put here is “research needed??? and not immediately on the “fraud??? site.
REH:
I would suggest that you remember the old adage about the snake biting his tail.
Vance:
viii.] You say you are Cherokee. Who are your Cherokee ancestors? Can you prove it or are you claiming it? I trace my ancestors to Brown and Guess (great great grandparents were David B Brown 1822-1865 and Hariet Guess 1818-1886) and no we are not enrolled either, and no, we can not prove they are Cherokee, but he have collected a lot of evidence. Also have evidence of Monacan/Saponi. I’d like to know somehting about the person I am talking to.
REH: OK, if your family is the reason that you are Cherokee then you are only half way there. Most of our peoples make a distinction between "two leggeds" and "real people" or principle people. I was always taught that you have to earn your significance by becoming a member of the principle people. Coming of Age. The first stone is blood but that is only a beginning and sometimes people jump over that stone. There have been some notable exceptions to blood amongst great Indian people. Many were of other nations that were adopted and some were even European. Especially women. By the way I am related by marriage to the Gists. Maybe we are cousins in-law. My other cousins are Reynolds, Sullivans, Corn and Rogers by marriage. I have relatives all over Oklahoma and all over the nation both by blood and marriage. That is by my natural parents. My adopted Father and last teacher was a Webber and that is not an unknown name down around Gore. His wife was Ani-Awi York from Tennessee. As in Sargeant York who was Tsalagi although like Will Rogers they rarely mention it. But I know the family.
Continue to conclusion:
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I hate this geneology thing. It is one of the things that made me leave home. My faith is my own and my community is also made up of diaspora Tsalagi and other Indian people who wish to sing, dance, study and grow together. It is our faith and religion and community. We do not authenticate people, take money from the government, or claim an inheritance. We simply love our families, are artists, scholars, teachers, and growers of every ilk as well as ex military people who take the care for our families very seriously. We have given hundreds of thousands of dollars in American Indian Scholarships in honor of my late Elder in Tulsa. She too was a scholar who accomplished great things without beating people about the head with her pedigree. Our Founder was at one time a Wolf Clan Chief and a decorated World War II veteran in three different services, and later was the High Medicine (Peace) Priest. I am a simple Priest who does his job as I am given to do. We are artists and other professional people who live in the world as it is but do not give up our faith or culture. We also practice the traditional crafts but do so as meditation and do not mix that up with Art. Art is something more important. It is that great mirror with a hole in it that tell us who we are and looks through to the Creator as to who we might become.
Most of our community really doesn't want to have anything to do with the internet but I believe that it is a possibility for communication and connection. I hope this will facilitate that but if it doesn't we are still who we are and will continue on the path given by the Creator of All.
oneh dodada gohv'i
Ray Evans Harrell
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Since you asked: REH
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With Rev. Dr. James A. Forbes, Jr.
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The ongoing Who Is My Neighbor lecture series addresses interreligious co-existence on a global level. Religious leaders and scholars are invited to discuss the issues facing their religion and how the teachings of their tradition can foster peaceful co-existence and community across cultures. Other lecturers include Dr. Danielle Celermajer representing Judaism, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf representing Islam, and Rev. Dr. Chung Ok Lee representing Buddhism.
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Normally, I do not post on web sites unless invited to provide information as was the case on this site. However, I am posting to address comments made by Mr. Ray Harrell.
I post this in response to the statements made by Mr. Harrell as indicated on April 18. Today is April 19, 2005.
This posted by Mr. Harrell on April 18, 2005: I called the High School Counselor Dr. Richard Allen and he did not convince me that he was equipped to make the judgements he made.
Contrary to what Mr. Harrell has posted on this site, he sent me an email this morning dated: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:12 AM. About an hour or two later, he called me. I emphatically state that this is the first contact that I have had with Mr. Harrell by email or by land line.
Mr. Harrell called to ask whether I had received his email and I responded I had and that "He was still a wannabe" to which he responded that I was a "sh*thead" and hung up the phone. That is the extent of any conversation that he and I have ever had.
I reiterate that Mr. Harrell has never contacted me at any time prior to today's date, so his earlier posts dated April 18 in which he claimed to correspond with me is a lie. What else can I say.
I am a policy analyst employed by the Cherokee Nation not a high school counselor as was stated by Mr. Harrell.
I often respond to correspondence addressed to Chief Smith from individuals who are inquiring about their heritage, looking for a shaman or want dream analysis or who are misguided about their heritage.
I have the advantage of knowing the traditions, the culture and history of the Cherokee people having been reared in a traditional manner in a Cherokee community and accepted as the full blood that I am. I am also a Marine Vietnam veteran so I don't mind a little verbal conflict every now and then.
Dr. Richard L. Allen
Policy Analyst
Cherokee Nation
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I realize that Mr. Allen doesn't remember that he told me his PhD was in education and counseling. If he will remember I mentioned my father as well. Maybe he has lead damage like those of us from Picher. The VA has some good drugs for memory and as a Marine he is eligible. I don't really care what his job is at present. We all do different things. I did call him at his home about six months ago on a holiday and he was surprised that I had his home phone number. I looked it up. I questioned him about his derogatory Shamanism article which didn't seem to know anything about the seminal work of the Kirkpatricks/Gritts on "Cherokee Shamanism." We had a conversation in which I found him rigid, authoritarian and limited in his experience.
I wasn't in the Marines I was in the Army for six years and I live in New York where conflict is a way of life. So I too am happy to converse. Nothing like a couple of old farts trying to remember when their testaterone meant something.
I tried to call and make it private but he chose this venue. I'm happy to oblige. Perhaps we should include our Council and Chief Smith in this as well. How about the High Priest?
People whose bottoms are bare should not be so aggressive. We don't Wannabe anything. We are who we are. Wannabe is a vulgar derogatory term that shouldn't be aimed at anyone. One who does that has a head full of old waste that didn't work then and still doesn't. I believe it is called a "Trusel". Sounds good but doesn't work.
Both Allen and Kirk felt no shame at maligning not only a young organization like ourselves, in existence since the 1978 law made it legal, but an old community resource of Cherokees and Lenape (the Sand Hill People) that Touching Leaves the great Lenape Linguist scholar paid homage to when she came to New York before she died. The community historian, who happens to be a member of the CNO, has carefully documented the history of the community and been peer reviewed and is exhibited in two Museums in New Jersey as a cultural resource. The community is dispersed with only a few residents now but to deny their existence is criminal. Where is your head Allen and Kirk. What tunes are you singing?
Ultimately It all comes down to government collaborator's descendants being recognized and Oklahoma traditionals being dis-enfranchised. Ask him why they don't include the traditional Keetoowahs who refused and still refuse numbers in the nation? What can't the Stone family exhibit their work as Indian or Cherokee? Why are imitations of old pieces more relevant to life today than work that represents Cherokees today? That is what we call "trinkets and trash" here in the Art world and what we call "looney tunes" at the American Indian Community House. I have fought not to allow prejudice in the opera business against Indians, when essentially we are "invading" European cultural territory. No one says that a painter who paints on canvas rather than wood planks, berry dyes and bird yokes is not a real Indian Artist and that those sacred belts with wire in them are really European. Suprise! all of those special symbols that everybody was stealing from you is found almost everywhere but as long as you didn't know different, you could believe what was in their minds. This is not the way it was when I grew up in Oklahoma. We had Moscelyn Larkin, Yvonne Chouteau, Louis Ballard, the Hightowers, Maria Tall Chief. All from Indian families and Northeastern Oklahoma.
As for Mr. Allen and his complaints. He is still rude presumptious and ignorant and that is all there is to that.
Ray Evans Harrell
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Mr. Harrell and everyone else, a couple of points I should touch on.
A lot of what the Society in NY is doing reminds me a lot of what I've seen from other Cherokee groups that are outside the three fed-recognized groups. A lot of defensiveness, insinuation of deep elaborate dark conspiracies that sound very paranoid, and a hostility towards their recognized cousins. Plus a tendency to use language that is drawn from Nuage more than traditional beliefs.
"They don't know anyone [who] exists who isn't a part of the Dawes "collaborator's and criminal's" rolls."
That is downright abusive towards people you are related to by blood and culture. Not to mention paranoid and just plain untrue. Very FEW enrolled Cherokees were "collaborators". The Watie/Boudinot faction was just a tiny fragment of the Cherokee nation, less than 10%. And, playing devil's advocate here, many of them felt they had reason for what they did, that they would be removed anyway from the homeland and so they should get the best deal they can. IMO that does not excuse what they did by signing a fraudulent treaty. But they (and their descendants) mostly did not see what they did as traitorous.
"There are about 8 million Indian people in America who are culturally NOT European and who don't care now to have anything to do with governments."
There about 7 million with NDN ancestry total in the US, and perhaps half of them say they are "part Indian." They know they have ancestry in a vague way, but they were not raised as such, they aren't treated as NDN by others or think of themselves as NDN other than having a little vague interest in the culture.
About half the self IDd or otherwise IDd as NDNs in the US aren't enrolled, including me and probably half the NDNs on this board too. So we understand your position, but wish you'd cease your largely groundless hostility towards your recognized cousins. They didn't invent blood quantum, the feds did.
And no, Nuage aren't the only ones to use metaphors. But they certainly overuse bad metaphors, and they do it hide their lack of clear thinking. "Mirrors of your mind" is an awful Nuage derived mixed metaphor, a really bad bit of overwriting. That, plus the hostility towards enrolled Cherokee, make me wonder if you have Nuage members that are influencing you.
One fascinating bit you mention is a personal interest of mine: That Sgt. York was Cherokee. I'd never heard this before, and I just finished writing a history book on Native veterans. I searched quite a bit for this, and the only thing I found anywhere close to your claim was this:
Cached at
http://www.doles.org/DelkNews6/DELKNEWS6.htm
"Many of our subscribers wanted to know how they were related to Alvin York. To answer this we need to know that Alvin was a great-great-grandson of Conrood Pile who is buried in the same cemetery him in Wolf River Cemetery, Pall Mall, Fentress Co. Tennessee....
Also, he made profitable deals with the Indians. For Fentress County was a part of the great hunting grounds of the Shawnee, Cherokee and Chickasaw; and one of their trails passed near Coonrod's home....
According to Pile Genealogy by Ferne Sepp, Coonrod Pile was a "long hunter"....
Coonrod Pile and his wife now lie side by side in the Wolf River Cemetery at Pall Mall, with a large slab of limestone covering each grave. While in another grave, only a few yards away, lies the remains of their famous and heroic great-great-grandson -- Sergeant Alvin Cullom York."
Much of the rest of this geneology site talks about Cherokee relatives, but not for York. If you know of any different sources, I'd sure like to see them.
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Mr. Harrell and everyone else, a couple of points I should touch on.
A lot of what the Society in NY is doing reminds me a lot of what I've seen from other Cherokee groups that are outside the three fed-recognized groups. A lot of defensiveness, insinuation of deep elaborate dark conspiracies that sound very paranoid, and a hostility towards their recognized cousins. Plus a tendency to use language that is drawn from Nuage more than traditional beliefs.
REH
I would remind you that I AM on the defense here. You are the ones that accused us. This is no level playing field and it is most definitely a game. We are a very small group that has our first group of graduates doing well in the nation's universities, including my daughter, and we have given our blood, sweat and tears to maintain the traditions that we were passed at great sacrifice. I have 80 volumes of personal traditional Keetoowah material that was passed to me from my father, that does not exist in museums and that I am supposed to burn if I don't have an apprentice to pass it on to. That is the traditional way. You don't just put things out, they have a life and affect. If Croslynn Smith or Walker Calhoun converts to Christianity and they have no apprentice, the tradition is dead. They are both a living legacy, a national treasure. If they do not have responsible students then the material is gone. In the case of these materials, if there is no student, they must be destroyed lest they cause harm. That includes not only the Keetoowah but the Big House and the Apache traditions that were passed to him to me. There are plenty of Mede and Sundance people. That material is covered. I don't have to be responsible for that even though his teachers were the most well known of the day. Still, there are practitioners of those traditions. But when the way is lost so are the spirits.
This is not up for discussion.
Such non-sense as I have been exposed to by Allen and Kirk on this list is both demeaning of that task and is not good for my name as a serious artist in the Performing Arts. I have worked hard on the internet for ten years building a good reputation but all it takes is one negative to destroy that. Ask Ward Churchill. How do we feed our children given such negative "official" statements? We have taken guff for thirty years for insisting that Indians CAN do complex music and dance. Now the "Indians" say we aren't and they don't. Bad scene.
We have several good Cherokee Opera Singers and one great composer. They have not been treated well in either community and modern Indian art is non-existent in the performing arts. Everything is commercial. That is bad ulanigvgv.
I do not take money from the community and I have given around 26,000 dollars a year in free scholarships to Indian students over 27 of the 35 years I've been in New York. Many of these have gone on to do leads in Broadway, Lincoln Center, movies, opera, directing and choreography winning many awards and honors. Black Elk Speaks, Powwow Highway, Lonesome Dove, etc. Their training here didn't cost them a cent but it was not free for us. Until now, I never charged them. Because of distractions like this, and this paranoid external environment, we have suffered this year we are unable to help Indian children who come here for the arts as a result.
It is not only Indian people who are in love with the past. When we honored Ned Rorem, we went $40,000 in debt because America does not really know the purpose of serious Art and want only to hear old traditional music. I learned that as a child in Picher but they haven't learned it yet. What is truly depressing is that Oklahoma seems to have forgotten it.
I must go teach now but will come back to your other statements. Ask yourself why we should respect our relatives who do not return that respect and who have jobs and salaries. We made our choice but we do not have to take abuse from those who don't live in two rooms with a piano and six thousand books.
Ray Evans Harrell
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back for a moment:
AC quotes me:
They don't know anyone [who] exists who isn't a part of the Dawes "collaborator's and criminal's" rolls."
That is downright abusive towards people you are related to by blood and culture. Not to mention paranoid and just plain untrue. Very FEW enrolled Cherokees were "collaborators". The Watie/Boudinot faction was just a tiny fragment of the Cherokee nation, less than 10%. And, playing devil's advocate here, many of them felt they had reason for what they did, that they would be removed anyway from the homeland and so they should get the best deal they can. IMO that does not excuse what they did by signing a fraudulent treaty. But they (and their descendants) mostly did not see what they did as traitorous.
REH:
Al, I believe you don't know Keetoowah history here. In 1883 through the turn of the century it was the traditional people, not the Boudinot faction, that resisted enrollment. In fact Redbird Smith had to be caught, thrown in jail and given a roll number or he would have been in the same boat as over 6,000 traditional people who didn't and don't have roll numbers. At the time of the Trail of Tears Christians were only about 10% and it had little to do with "blood". In fact I was taught that a person who was culturally Tsalagi was a full blood and a Christian was mixed. That is of course lost with the exception of some very conservative communities. Traditional Keetoowahs cannot be Christian, it is a different religion and the Keetoowah faith is the original faith of the Cherokee i.e. Anikituwagi. If Smith had not been jailed, along with the criminals, he would not have had a roll number. Since it is required that the descendant be direct, I suspect that the current Chief would not have been "Cherokee" had not his ancestor been jailed. There is plenty of data about this available in the Cherokee Histories. But remember, because of the "Religious Crimes Codes of 1883" that banned all native religions in America, Keetoowahs basically went underground when confronted by the authorities. For the government the issue was land, especially for the Sundance peoples and their religious land coops (Tiospayes). But as the Dawes commission report makes clear, and I quote:
[In 1883 a small group of Eastern humanitarians began to meet annually at Lake Mohonk, where with an agreeable background of natural beauty, congenial companionship, and crusading motive, they discussed the Indian problem. At their third meeting Senator Henry L. Dawes of Massachusetts, a distinguished Indian theorist, gave a glowing description of a visit of inspection he had recently made to the Indian Territory. The most partisan Indian would hardly have painted such an idealized picture of his people’s happiness and prosperity and culture, but, illogically, the senator advocated a change in this perfect society because it held the wrong principles of property ownership. Speaking apparently of the Cherokees, he said: “The head chief told us that there was not a family in that whole nation that had not a home of its own. There was not a pauper in that nation, and the nation did not owe a dollar. It built its own capitol, in which we had this examination, and it built its schools and its hospitals. Yet the defect of the system was apparent. They have got as far as they can go, because they own their land in common. It is Henry George’s system, and under that there is no enterprise to make your home any better than that of your neighbors. There is no selfishness, which is at the bottom of civilization. Till this people will consent to give up their lands, and divide them among their citizens so that each can own the land he cultivates, they will not make much more progress.??? (36)]
(36) 1900, pp. 25-32; Lake Mohonk Conference, Report, 1904, pp 5-6; Department of the Interior, Annual Report, 1900, pp. 655-735.
That was the myth told by the Americans but it was really about closing the Nation down and getting the excess land for settlers. Redbird Smith and the Keetoowahs as well as the Four Mothers and other traditional societies were dead against that. I do realize that some traditional families accepted and even pushed roll numbers. I was told that by an artist descendant, but by and large the "mixed" cultural Cherokees were NOT the ones resisting enrollment, and I'm not talking blood here.
I know a man who lost a huge ranch and was required to take 160 acres, so he shot the Marshalls and spent the rest of his life on the run. He went from Prince to pauper. The ranch was three Oklahoma counties. The argument that it was going to happen anyway is the same argument made by the treaty party in Tenn. I don't accept it and neither did my Grandparents. They just stayed in Arkansas amongst our people there until it was all over. They resolved to keep their community and family as well as the traditions but elected not to get involved in the fights. The Civil War had nearly destroyed the family and they weren't going to do that again.
Ray Evans Harrell
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AC quotes me
"There are about 8 million Indian people in America who are culturally NOT European and who don't care now to have anything to do with governments."
There about 7 million with NDN ancestry total in the US, and perhaps half of them say they are "part Indian." They know they have ancestry in a vague way, but they were not raised as such, they aren't treated as NDN by others or think of themselves as NDN other than having a little vague interest in the culture.
REH:
Actually, what Garcia Lorca called the "deep springs" are not all that hard to find. They are vague feelings only if your feelings are vague. Native studies begins with the clarity of the senses and proceeds to programming and archiving those senses in a systems way that is imprinted on the child very early. Over forty eight years of teaching in the Arts private performance market, I've found that a serious cleansing of one's perceptual skills and exploration of how one thinks adds up every time to a cultural and linguistic style. You can see it in the way Indian people use English for example. Even if they never knew their own language they absorbed the verb process and use that instead of the "object relations" of European noun oriented English. A serious study of one's expressive modes shows by style where things came from. I remember a Long Island woman who was doing an exercise in class that included improvisational singing. She imagined she was her ancestor and began to sing in that spot. What came out was an incredible middle-eastern mix that made absolutely no sense with who she was in the world. Then we realized it was Armenian which was her mother's people. But to her it was unconscious. I've seen Medicine People recognize "skins" over distances that were far too great for mere recognition.
My point is that claiming on the census that you are native doesn't necessarily mean that, as we know. But what does is family style and the systems that are deep within the person. We say the first bible or "sacred library" is yourself and you must know how that works and where it comes from. The second is the world that is our teacher and mother.
There are 30 million descendants of 52 survivors of the Mayflower. There are more descendants of Jamestown then that. I suspect that there are more than eight million descendants of those millions of native people but that is at least a little less than there are Moslems in America. I'm using logic here.
AC:
About half the self IDd or otherwise IDd as NDNs in the US aren't enrolled, including me and probably half the NDNs on this board too. So we understand your position, but wish you'd cease your largely groundless hostility towards your recognized cousins. They didn't invent blood quantum, the feds did.
REH
True but the CNO is not blood quantum but direct lineage. It has nothing to do with blood. As for hostility. I would appreciate it if you realize that I didn't start this, you did.
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Ray,
I have been thinking about many of the things you have written here, much of which has nothing to do with questions posed to you. I asked you about the Sacred Fire and I took insult with your answer.
So you know, I am the first mixed blood on my mother's side of the family. They were traditional people from Texas and Mississippi and only my mother and grandparents converted to catholism so she could attend school, not being allowed in public school cause she was an Indian.
That said, why didn't they know of any Sacred Fire brought to Texas or Miss. or all the other Cherokee in these states, why don't they know?
You mention the Sacred Fire in Georgia. It is your sacred fire that you brought to the Southeast Cherokee Council. I read it in their newsletter and posted it here somewhere in all these posts. Also I would assume that the one in Alabama is one you brought to them, and most likely the Echota Cherokee there.
Also, you keep mentioning over and over again that the IRS recognizes your group. So what. Anyone can form a group and incorporate. You know, I have seen nuagers use that same line "the IRS recognizes us".
And for this Blood Quantum thing, to me it is important. I don't care who calls me a bigot. If you have 1/32 or 1/64 blood you are not an Indian in my opinion. I have know idea what you look like or what your blood is. You have danced around that issue quite well. I do know what David Michael Wolfe looks like though. He's the other head of the Nuyagi Keetoowah. He's a fat, pink skinned, balding, white man claiming to be Cherokee. Maybe we'll all be lucky here and he'll start to post too.
That's all I have to say for right now.
Joseph
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AC:
Plus a tendency to use language that is drawn from Nuage more than traditional beliefs.
REH:
Interesting. How old are you?
AC:
And no, Nuage aren't the only ones to use metaphors. But they certainly overuse bad metaphors, and they do it hide their lack of clear thinking. "Mirrors of your mind" is an awful Nuage derived mixed metaphor, a really bad bit of overwriting.
REH:
Actually it comes from Quetzalcoatl and his journey. The four directions carry different mirrors. The Nahua were great pedagogists and I did a production of a new work twenty years ago at the American Indian Community House written by poet Rafel Jesus Gonzalez and translated from the Nahuatl. That was when I built my Meso-American Library. It was good because when my father apprenticed me I already knew the elements of that in the ceremonials. Since both of my fathers were teachers as well as my mother, and since I was trained as a pedagogist in undergraduate and did four years of educational research, it is now my language. It is funny that you call it nuage. Life cannot be expressed directly. Especially in teaching. You mustn't steal the learning by being obvious. In music that is the difference between a teacher and a coach. Remember the first fallacy of teaching is "I tell you therefore you know."
AC:
That, plus the hostility towards enrolled Cherokee, makes me wonder if you have Nuage members that are influencing you.
REH:
No I did a search and came across reference to myself and our community in a Cherokee talk group that used you as the authority for slandering us. We have enough problems in the city as it is. This is a city filled with groups that enjoy poking. We work to be peaceful but we do not let anything get by lest it fester.
That is the source of my hostility. Wouldn't you be PO d if you and your close friends found your name in the fraud column of someone you never knew or heard of? As for the "official" group, I don't like the way they have handled a lot of things including the Churchill issue as well as Red Lake. I had a student who is Sac & Fox go to Germany and talk about blood quantum and racial purity. They told her she was a Nazi. That is too uncomfortably close to Red Lake for my taste. We do not live as private islands in the world. That was never and still isn't an option. The only option is to have the skills to survive and maintain our traditions in the world. Imagine a canoe. Which will you use for the rapids, a lake canoe?
First I don't understand how you could list as nuage TSALAGI the Cherokee language phonetic of Cherokee which is an old idiom no longer spoken. Everyone in North Carolina, here and elsewhere says chalagi or t-s-a-la-gi depending upon their dialect. But New Age? Makes no sense. It's like Nuyagi which we take from Nee yacki, an Algonquin word for the great rock Manhattan is built on i.e. "Place of Rocks." The city of Nyack, New York is a derivative of the word. We are Tsalagi so we say Nuyagi but that is where we get the word. Perhaps they got it elsewhere from the Japanese. Where do you think they got the word Dick-tu-lane-uh?
Secondly: New Age is a type of Commercial Art. It flows from World Music to Steven Spielburg. In therapy it comes from Fritz Perls who founded Gestalt therapy with Laura Perls. Both studied with an Ojibwa in Canada and the mix was Jewish and Canadian Ojibwa. If you want to feel it purely "Canada" read some of the legal works of Rupert Ross or the Indigenous Science books by Physicist David Bohm and F. David Peat. There has been a good dialogue between Indigenous Science and Physics through these European Quantum pioneers. The language is what you call nuage but with an Irish accent since the Ojibwa love to clog.
What was radical in the sixties and seventies is now mainstream both commercially and psychoanalytically. I studied with Ilana Rubenfeld for six years and she was a student of Perls, Feldenkrais and an expert in Alexander as well as being one of the great choral conductors and head of a major music school in New York (92nd street Y). I also worked with the Minimalist Artists in Soho (Experimental Intermedia Foundation) in the seventies and pop culture has absorbed much of our language from that time, including rap. I've also taught many different cultures to sing and relate to their physical instrument in their music. These "nuage" terms may seem to the layman not to be specific in meaning but that is not true in my business. I also worked with Robert Lewis one of the two founders of the Method Acting school and head of Yale Drama. He was Brando's teacher. The people you speak of have absorbed the language of Art, the Theater and physical and psychological therapies. That is not the problem of the language but of capitalism and commerce. I was a part of the people who invented the stuff years ago when I first came to New York. Later the commercial souls took it over to sell it. But they often missed the point. Don't blame the serious artist for the foibles of capitalism.
Ray Evans Harrell
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AC:
One fascinating bit you mention is a personal interest of mine: That Sgt. York was Cherokee. I'd never heard this before, and I just finished writing a history book on Native veterans. I searched quite a bit for this, and the only thing I found anywhere close to your claim was this:
Cached at
http://www.doles.org/DelkNews6/DELKNEWS6.htm
"Many of our subscribers wanted to know how they were related to Alvin York. To answer this we need to know that Alvin was a great-great-grandson of Conrood Pile who is buried in the same cemetery him in Wolf River Cemetery, Pall Mall, Fentress Co. Tennessee....
Also, he made profitable deals with the Indians. For Fentress County was a part of the great hunting grounds of the Shawnee, Cherokee and Chickasaw; and one of their trails passed near Coonrod's home.... ?
According to Pile Genealogy by Ferne Sepp, Coonrod Pile was a "long hunter".... ?
Coonrod Pile and his wife now lie side by side in the Wolf River Cemetery at Pall Mall, with a large slab of limestone covering each grave. While in another grave, only a few yards away, lies the remains of their famous and heroic great-great-grandson -- Sergeant Alvin Cullom York."
Much of the rest of this geneology site talks about Cherokee relatives, but not for York. If you know of any different sources, I'd sure like to see them.
REH:
The only source I have is the family and that is the branch in Deer Lodge, Tenn.
Ray Evans Harrell
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Rereading all of this work, I missed something that Richard Allen posted. Since he did not equivocate but called me a liar, then it is possible that there is another Richard Allen who claimed to work for the CNO and who wrote a scurrulous article on the religion of 123 million Indigeneous people.....
I keep thinking of those Medicine people who were surprised that their Medicine Wheel was found in Africa as well. We all have to get out a bit.
Richard finished by saying:
I have the advantage of knowing the traditions, the culture and history of the Cherokee people having been reared in a traditional manner in a Cherokee community and accepted as the full blood that I am.
REH:
OK, maybe you weren't the one because that one told me as I remember, that he was not a native speaker of Cherokee but that it was a second language. Obviously I am mistaken about the Baptist. As for blood. That is the first stone, the second is love. As a specialist you know there are seven.
I too have been cared for by the Cherokee people in my most difficult times. When I couldn't relate to Tulsa because of the culture shock, Dr. Gene Curlin and Marvin Curlin practically took me into their home and helped me through. She was an artist who knew the berry dyes and egg yoke on board ancient traditions. Each time I was in need there was a teacher there from the people. That is why I have given the scholarships as my give-back to those who gave to me.
I am culturally 100% Nuyagi Keetoowah. That was one of many horses in my corral. That was the one that the Creator led me to and that is what I do. I certainly don't do it because its fun or financially profitable.
Richard:
I am also a Marine Vietnam veteran so I don't mind a little verbal conflict every now and then.
REH:
You should feel right at home on our Council we have two Special Ops folks from that era. One the Council President and the other retired and you insulted him recently.
Ray Evans Harrell
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Ray,
I have a BS in mathematics with a physics minor. To me "living outside of time" is a bit more complex adn precise than your hazy description of it, and it is meaningless unless you are speaking of something that is "imaginary" in a mathematical since.
You donated $26,000 to something -- that's a year and a half salary for me. You must be rich.
You are longwinded and talk too much, and never answered many questions. I won't ask 'em again -- no point.
I have noticed a tendacy in groups that try to organize into "Cherokee Tribes" or bands to put down enrolled Cherokee and I hate that. I think they do this to explain to their "converts" (whom they call tribal members) why they are not accepted by federally recognized tribes. Some of these groups act like cults and I steer clear of them (learned that by bad experiences). Some seem to be run by little cult leaders who make up history and tradition to fit their personal spin on things.
Also the first Keetoowah were about the time of the Civil War and they opposed slavery (so Al, you were right about that dispite what Ray says) -- if I remember my history -- they were called "Pin Indians" and opposed th Ridge/Waite faction -- these "Pin Indians" aka Keetoowah were aided greatly by Christian preachers in those days and this is documented in history. So Ray you are twistin' history just a tiny little bit there in your portrayal of Christianity . . .
There are websites that mention the things I said, just look to the links at the beginning of this lengthy thread. They DO say your Nayugi Keetoowah Society is recognized by what is called the "revered" Keetoowah Society of Oklahoma. If you don't like it go to those websites and tell them to take that down as it is misleading. It might be a site that mentions David Michael Wolfe as head of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society, tho, and not you -- I am not sure. So when you say you are head while he is saying he is the head of it -- well who is the head, you or him?
Also I don't think anybody would call themselves a "high priest" of a Stomp grounds . . . for someone that opposes "European" Christian religion, that's a very "European" term if ever I heard one . . .
Vance
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Ray, for someone who claims to be so traditional and to be a guardian of culture and knowledgable about not just Cherokee history but also alleged "hidden history," you don't seem to know the most basic facts about Cherokees.
I talked about Watie and Boudinot and you started discussing history that happened forty years after them. The Trail of Tears and the Dawes Act happened half a century apart, but you didn't seem to realize that. And you seem to be confusing Allotment (the dividing up of land) with enrollment (being listed on the federal rolls).
And for someone claiming to be a Priest, or High Priest, or Peace Priest as you've claimed to be at different times, you can be awfully childish. Not only in your shrill denunciations of the CNO based on a dubious understanding of history, but also in your attacks. Insinuating Dr. Allen has brain damage from lead poisoning? That alone tells us that Allen is likely truthful when he describes the conversation between the two of you as being all of three sentences with you ending it by cursing at him.
"I hate this geneology thing. It is one of the things that made me leave home."
Not sure what to make of that. Were you kicked out of the CNO?
(Discussing those with distant Native ancestry)- "They are vague feelings only if your feelings are vague. Native studies begins with the clarity of the senses and proceeds to programming and archiving those senses in a systems way that is imprinted on the child very early."
That's about the most Nuage thing you've said yet. It could've come straight out of a Waldorf School manual. And you keep on coming on with one bit after another.
"...derogatory comments on a seminal work on Cherokee shamanism."
Shamanism is an outsider's term. I realize anthros use it all the time, but for an alleged traditionalist like yourself to hold it so dearly, and to seemingly rely so much on ethnography for your knowledge of tradition?
"Wannabe is a vulgar derogatory term that shouldn't be aimed at anyone."
Oh please. I've never met an NDN yet who didn't use the term, and every alleged NDN I've ever met who hated the term turned out to be a wannabe.
It's a lightly teasing term at worst, humorous, mild, dead on target, and objected to the most by people who've never known *real* racism or prejudice in their life. Try going to Montana and getting called a prairie nigger, as happened to me one summer I worked there. Or being in Arizona when the front page of the local paper defends calling a local landmark Squaw Peak. *That* is what is truly derogaory.
"New Age is a type of Commercial Art. It flows from World Music to Steven Spielburg. "
LOL! Well, you certainly have the commerical part right...
Seriously, Wendy Rose makes a very good argument that Nuage is primarily consumerism and not spirituality. I realize some good Native artists like Nakai peddle to the Nuage market, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about in here. And your defense of Nuage certainly confirms your being influenced by them.
So much for you claiming to be so traditional...I agree with Allen much more than I did before you came here, and it's your own words that are hanging you.
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Wow,
What a nasty post. You were the one who put Boudinot together with enrollment. I just jumped it to the impulse for the Curtis Act which is when the whole Dawes Rolls that determine CNO membership were taken.
Do you know who Boudinot was? He was the founder of Patterson, N.J. Watie took the name. Seems maybe there was a connection between Patterson where the Sand Hills are and John Ross. Otherwise how would Watie know to take the name? I would recommend that you read all of the Cherokee Phoenix translations that are available on the Internet. That gives you a good feel for the history from the Christian Cherokee perspective.
You all continue to confuse the Priesthood. I would recommend that you read "Tribes that Slumber" so you can get it straight. Our Founder. my father, was one of the resources for the book put out by the Univ. of Tenn.
The Nuyagi Keetoowah has only one site and you have never seen it. The Sand Hill site is a historian site by a member of the Cherokee Nation with BIA card. A man who is a national resource for Indian rights organizations, has an Indian Foundation and has had breakfast with the President. He grew up in Sand Hill and his family has been there over the period of its development. No one knows more about that then he. When he says Keetoowah he means religion and when he says Nuyagi he means here in the "place of rocks". He means the group that came here and has a history with a Stompground that was noted in the newspapers of the day even though it was illegal. The whites thought it was novel and so didn't bother them. He has notes of it in the 1928 newspapers. His work is in the Museums. He is a member of our Stomp Ground and former Council Member but IT IS NOT A NUYAGI KEETOOWAH SOCIETY, INC. website or has anything to do with our official duties, etc. He dances also in Oklahoma where he says and their approval is between him and them. You should read the site carefully so you understand Stokes State Forest where they met in 1928 for the fire with our Founder. He passed that fire to me in 1984 and I have been the keeper of it down to the present. That is not all that I keep. But the Sand Hill site is a historian site and is subject to the same rigors as all history. We are proud of him but you have to take his context for his paper, not what you believe in your minds or what anyone else says.
If you want to understand the quote on the Futurework site then read the whole thread. It is much too complicated for you to judge simply by extracting that information. Intent is always a part of the message and you miss that by not reading the thread. The Futurework site is also NOT A NUYAGI KEETOOWAH SOCIETY, INC. website. It is however a very good international discussion of the problems of work that we face in our pursuit of employment for our people. Not a bad thing to know.
That being said. You know only what I have written about us and you have to read it all to get the point. My writing is Cherokee English. It doesn't scan and it is often in the passive voice with a stress on the processes rather than the nouns and objects. That is the way my family taught me English.
As for judging my tradition. Who made you the authority on tradition? It is not traditional to be disrespectful to a man with "gray hair." I said all of the right things, the cues and the cliches and you didn't know them. An Indian child would understand about snow in the hair.
I'm going to leave it at that. You may read for a while and then I will delete the posts as I don't want to leave this around. You have already stirred up enough mischief and taken time away from my family. You have also started a connection with Tahlequah that I have deliberately avoided because of growing up on Indian land and having to deal with governments. I don't do that and that is why I am here and in the private sector.
Finally, if you don't know the power of naming then you should go ask your parents because they messed up. Wannabe is common but so was the N word when I was growing up and they said Segregation was OK. Accusing someone of lacking authenticity is to judge their soul. That is the real curse not saying that someone is a shit head. The next time someone comes to audition for me from Oklahoma and is a member of the CNO I will remember to ask them if they wannabe an opera singer or are they just faking it. (just joking)
Goodby
REH
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"You were the one who put Boudinot together with enrollment."
No, not even close. I was talking about Removal. You are the one who doesn't seem to know Removal and the Dawes Act are separated by half a century.
Not to mention being very confused about Boudinot. He couldn't have founded a town in NJ because he was executed by Ross's followers for signing the fraudulent treaty.
"My writing is Cherokee English. It doesn't scan and it is often in the passive voice with a stress on the processes rather than the nouns and objects."
Oh please. I've read more than my share of Cherokee authors, and none of them speak in such a dense and obtuse way as you, or deliberately go off on tangents and avoid the subject as much as you.
"As for judging my tradition. Who made you the authority on tradition?"
Gotta love the Nuage way you use the word "judge," as in "only mean people use the brains God gave them."
So now you claim it is solely your invented tradition? Not Allen's, not Vance's or Joseph's as well?
"It is not traditional to be disrespectful to a man with "gray hair.""
No one has been disrespectful to you. We've asked you simple questions, and you did everything you could to avoid straight answers.
*You* have been abusive to Dr. Allen, and that tells me you are no elder and no real priest.
"You may read for a while and then I will delete the posts as I don't want to leave this around."
No you aren't. I'm reposting these to the archive for anyone who wants to see the true you, the one who curses and throws tantrums like a child and hides from the truth.
"...you should go ask your parents because they messed up."
And now you get even more childish by insulting everyone's parents.
"Wannabe is common but so was the N word when I was growing up."
LOL! Oh please. Spoken like a true wannabe whose never faced real pejudice in their life.
"Accusing someone of lacking authenticity is to judge their soul."
Spoken like a true Nuager who is fearful they've been found out.
"That is the real curse not saying that someone is a s**t head."
At least you finally admit to being childish and cursing at him.
The saddest thing in all of this is the way you mislead so many Cherokee in your area searching for a connection to tradition.
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Maybe Joseph or Vance can answer this for me. But it seemed to me that I read that the Cherokees killed all the priests. In fact, I read a novel by Robert J Conley, Cherokee author, that described the killing of the priests.
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I had read about the killing off of priests and I have been looking through my library. The only reference I can find is in Thomas Mails "Cherokee People" and since this book is just a rewriting of everything else that has been written, and I don't particularly care for or believe everything he writes, my annswer is I am not sure. To me Mails is an "armchair historian", just reads other's works and then rewrites it and flavors it with christianity.
I enjoy Conley's books but as a writer he takes liberties with the facts (and he says this in his books). He wrote one book called "Ned Christie's War" which is closer to the truth than other novels about Christie but still it deviates from the facts.
I will look some more but perhaps Vance has an answer to this question.
Joseph
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108. THE MASSACRE OF THE ANI’ KUTA’NI
Among…perishing traditions is that relating to the Ani’Kuta’ni or Ani-Kwata’ni concerning whom the modern Cherokee know so little that their very identity is now a matter of dispute, a few hold that they were ancient people who preceded the Cherokee and built mounds, while others, with more authority, claim that they were a clan or society in the tribe and were destroyed long ago…From various statements it would seem that the Ani-Kutani were a priestly clan, having hereditary supervision of all religious ceremonies among the Cherokee, until in consequence of having abused their sacred privileges, they were attacked and completely exterminated by the rest of the tribe, leaving the priestly functions to be assumed thereafter by individual doctors and conjurers…Tradition states that such persons lived among their ancestors and were deemed superior to others, and were extirpated long ago, in consequence of the misconduct of one of the priests, who attempted to take the wife of a man who was the brother of the leading chief of the nation…A…more detailed statement, on the authority of John Ross and Dr. J. B. Evans, is given in 1866 by a writer who speaks of the massacre as having occurred about a century before, although from the dimness of the tradition it is evident that it must have been much earlier:
“The facts, though few, are interesting. The order was hereditary; in this respect peculiar, for among Indians seldom, and among the Cherokee never, does power pertain to any family as a matter of right. Yet the family of the Nicotani—for it seems to have been a family or clan—enjoyed this privilege. The power they exercised was not, however, political, nor does it appear that chiefs were elected among them.
“The Nicotani were a mystical, religious body of whom the people stood in great awe, and seem to have been somewhat like the Brahmins of India. By what means they attained their ascendancy, or how long it was maintained, can never be ascertained. Their extinction by massacre is nearly all that can be discovered concerning them. They became haughty, insolent, overbearing, and licentious to an intolerable degree. Relying on their hereditary privileges and the strange awe which they inspired, they did not hesitate by fraud, or violence to rend asunder the tender relations of husband and wife when a beautiful woman excited their passions. The people long brooded in silence over the oppressions and outrages of this high caste, whom they deeply hated but greatly feared. At length a daring young man, a member of an influential family, organized a conspiracy among the people for the massacre of the priesthood. The immediate provocation was the abduction of the wife of the young leader of the conspiracy. His wife was remarkable for her beauty, and was forcibly abducted and violated by one of the Nicotani while he was absent on the chase. On his return he found no difficulty in exciting in others the resentment which he himself experienced. So many had suffered in the same way, so many feared that they might be made to suffer, that nothing was wanted but a leader. A leader appearing in the person of the young brave whom we have named, the people rose under his direction and killed every Nicotani, young and old. Thus perished a hereditary secret society, since which time no hereditary secret society, since which time no hereditary privileges have been tolerated among the Cherokees (Mooney, J. Myths of the Cherokee).
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I note that my post includes a typo. The last sentence should read:
Thus perished a hereditary secret society, since which time no hereditary privileges have been tolerated among the Cherokees.
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Dr. Allen,
I was just reading that in my copy of Mooney. Thanks for posting it and thanks for saving me the time from typing it all in. It would have taken me a long time. Also, thanks for all your help in general.
Joseph
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Thank you Dr. Allen.
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From her website. Note what she calls the keeper of the wampum in Oklahoma. i.e. apprentice and adopted father. Family membership is required of an apprentice to the Medicine Priest. Her resources at Qualla are pretty good too don't you think? REH
Dr. Noé practices traditional Cherokee medicine as taught by her Cherokee elders. This is a practice that encompasses mind, body, and spirit. She was accepted as an official apprentice in 1987 by Crosslin F. Smith, high medicine priest of the Keetoowah, cherokees of the western band of Cherokees in Tahlequah, OK. She was adopted into the Smith family shortly after starting her apprenticeship. This is a unique honor reserved for few. Prior to this she was taught by the elders of the eastern Cherokees, Mary U. Chiltoskey, "Mama" Geneva Jackson, and Amy Walker. Dr. Noé continues to study with her elders and practices traditional Cherokee ways with patients when appropriate.
http://www.drjodyenoe.com/WebPages/cherokee.html
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Actually, since you brought out Crosslin's name, I did check with him a couple of weeks ago to verify this claim by Dr. Noe and he validates her claim. Some time ago, Crosslin shared with me a document--a speech--that he had written and I quote: "In the Indian world, there are three ways to become an Indian doctor. You can be born to it. That is, one would then have a particular traditional heritage inherited from his parents; a skill handed down from father to son. The second way is through traditional education and instruction by another doctor. The third way would be by utilizing instinct involving a deliberate search through spiritual meditation, which could lead to becoming a positive receptor of the elusive holy spirits, and the knowledge of how to apply information received through spiritual means. These means can be intermingled, and one does not necessarily exclude the other."
So according to this speech written by Crosslin, there is more than one way to acquire the knowledge to become an Indian doctor. I note he did not refer to this as becoming a high priest.
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I accept that.
That is the same as I was taught. When my father died he had written for four years knowing that he would not finish my study. When he died he left almost eighty volumes of typewritten material as my "study course." The things he couldn't live long enough to teach me. The courses are basically processes and besides the Tsalagi, there are all of the other that he was accredited by their peoples to teach.
I understood you to imply that there were no Priests today and aligned them with the "Nicotani" of the White Man who believed there were never more than one million Indians in America. He was so prejudiced that you have to know how to read it and he was also given information that was incomplete since reading is not for information but for remembering.
Fundamentalism is always a problem in literacy. That is why the oral is so important.
I have not and do not represent myself as an "Indian Doctor" although my father was. If you check with your office you will see what I mean. The definition I know of Priest is there. Its always good to talk to one's Priest before they talk to them at the end. Priests have a responsibility for the community and its well being.
A community without one has no one to care for the souls. That community "runs scared rather than running free."
I am and always have been a teacher both by training and by generations of family. I have also been in positions of spiritual leadership since childhood both before and after 1978. I am a musician and have worked with sacred music in many traditions beyond simply our own. I suppose that is why I was selected for my job.
I didn't ask and I didn't seek. Anyone who wants to go do this for the fun of it is an idiot and a fool. Just to start, my old friend and Ojibwa mentor the painter Joe Geschick used to say that "it is not easy being Indian!" He would say this after a four day no food or water fast and then ask us to pray and refuse to drink. I was one of Joe's sponsors at the Greengrass Sundance in 1980. That is not an easy way and it certainly wasn't fun. But it was right to do at the time and I learned important things that would help me with my final teacher who was a High Priest. I had called and asked him to help me with the birth of my daughter.
Up until that time both Louis Ballard and I thought I would do a Doctor's degree at Juilliard. I also figured that Louis would be my final teacher since he was from home and is the Hunka as well as being the grandson of a Cherokee Medicine Priest. He is also America's greatest living native composer. I was surprised and not all that pleased at the time, that my path was driven another way.
I have terrible short term memory caused by lead poisoning at Picher and that has plagued me all my life at being able to learn languages. Music was and is the language of my soul. I did not want to be a Priest and was assured that I was not the one to be the Priest that I was merely a student. Boy was I surprised when I found out my father, who was dying at the time, tricked me. Four and 1/2 years with him were difficult and wonderful. They were also not nearly enough for what I have had to learn over the last 17 years since his death. He apologized to me for leaving me mid-stream and I didn't at the time realize what that meant. But now I do since my time is also limited. Before he died he called my birth father and sent his regards. At the end he turned to me and said, "he doesn't know" (that he's dying). Within a year, both of my Fathers had left this world.
(continued)
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One thing you are right about. "Doctoring" doesn't travel but one shouldn't confuse that with being the only element of spirituality. It is only one of the elements. And because the Oklahoma bodies were shaped by Oklahoma weather, Oklahoma plants are better for you. When I was taught I was told to study the plants and time of this place. We are to the North of you. So I have used my work here and the Iroquois and Delaware as my guides in much of this doctoring. I also have one whale of french homeopathist who knows all of the herbs and is the only one to catch my lead poisoning and Lyme disease. The VA works with him he cleansed me of what was left and prescribed a native herb for the Lyme disease. Life has traveled on from the 1700s and we are all from many places today. The herb worked but its a rough one.
I don't know why I was selected but I only do what I was taught and is my role in life. I have defended the ceremonials and the ways with my life and prosperity. That was what my father taught me when we sacrificed all to develop the schools in Picher.
Ceremonials help you relate to where you are. Like language, they vary slightly from place to place amongst the same people. I don't authenticate or judge Oklahoma because I haven't been back there in years and I do my meditations now with my Cherokee wife at her home in Tennessee and in the Mountains of Sullivan County New York on the Delaware River. I am a Northern Cherokee now and Keetoowah is my path as well as anyone in Oklahoma but we do things our way here.
One last thought:
There are many great Cherokee teachers both known and unknown. Some of the most powerful that I have known said that "you could get a lot more done if no one knew you." They always insisted I NOT give their pedigree.
I've tried to walk a path between the two, given my business, and the need to support Indian people in the Arts with a positive example. I've not only studied under great Cherokee school teachers but privately with many such as the Texas Cherokee master voice teacher Frederick Wilkerson. "Wilkie" was so irritated by the Cherokee prejudice against his black father that it took four years for him to admit to me that his mother was full blood and where he was from. Her name was Ella. When he died it was the black community, with Roberta Flack and Maya Angelou who gave the big funeral since he was their teacher as well. Later I did a ceremonial at the cemetary for the Cherokee side. That and some personal things went with him so that he would have some peace with it. He gave me a gift as I left the Cemetery in Harlem.
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Ray,
Are you related to Louis Ballard? I have a good friend who's dad is first cousin to Louis Ballard. Just curious that's all.
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No, Louis and I are from the same "res". He's from Quapaw and I am from Picher, one mile apart. We both went to the University of Tulsa and studied with the same teachers there but he was a grad student when I was a freshman with Barbara McAllister the Cherokee opera singer from Muskogee. Burl Lane also from Picher was a part of that group and is now a section leader in the Chicago Symphony and Jazz great. Of course there was Mickey Mantle, who is a relative. He was from Commerce. Moscelyn Larkin the great Indian Ballerina (Miami) was from Miami, Okla. the county seat, ten miles down the road.
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Osiyo,
This is very flattering, my very own thread in the archive section and in so short of a time. I would suggest that the name of that be changed to the community that I belong to which is:
The Nuyagi Keetoowah Societies, Inc.
There are four designated in our Bylaws.
The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society: A Society of illustrious Tsalagi Elder Men above 50 years old.
The Clan Mothers Society: A society of illustrious Tsalagi Elder Women above 50 years of age.
The Seven Clans Scribe Society: A mixed society of Indian People and others who come to worship or study the structures of personality that contains the lessons learned in our traditions.
The Youth Council: A society of young people for the purpose of learning the lessons of our traditions both in the Eastern and Western and in the Cherokee presence in the Northeast.
All are represented on the Grand Council of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Community.
If you wish I will consult the Council as to what we can share on the internet with people outside the community. I tend to be transparent but the old privacies are deep as our leaders have been jailed only 23 years ago for practicing them. That is not my decision but theirs. We are not afraid of theft, for ideas cannot be stolen, only practiced. If you practice it, it is not the same, but yours. We can't make people Tsalagi and we do not proselytize or seek converts. The only way a person can become a member of the community from outside is through service or adoption by a community family who takes responsibility for that person and their actions.
As for authenticity? Well, if we are not authentic, it shouldn't bother anyone, everyone will know. But if we are and we shouldn't have told it, then it is on their shoulders for giving us the need to defend ourselves publicly in this forum.
For every question there is a counter question and for every challenge there is the same. The people cannot be reconciled unless there is equality. Just as people ask us what are we, we must return the question and point out that the issue of "blood" was confused by more than one child recently who drew the same conclusions as Germans have drawn when listening to Indian people traveling to Germany. They had heard that language before and it cost dearly. We reject that as not practicle in this time and in our situation. We made the decision to keep the culture no matter what the blood. That the culture was valuable and worth continuing for the sake of our children knowing and be proud of who they are.
oneh dodada gohv'i
Ray Evans Harrell
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Oh brother.
"This is very flattering, my very own thread in the archive section and in so short of a time."
This was done to prevent you from deleting the evidence of your inconsistencies, refusals to answer questions, and childish behavior. It's not "flattering", it's done to expose you.
"I would suggest that the name of that be changed to the community that I belong to."
No, the name stays.
"If you wish I will consult the Council as to what we can share on the internet with people outside the community."
You just don't get it, do you? It's the opinion of all the Cherokees on this board, and myself as well, that there are some serious problems with what your group does. All the Cherokees on here believe your group to be disrespectful wannabes.
And one of the central beliefs of this group is that there are some things which are not right to talk about on the net. Esp when we have doubts about the value of what your group claims to teach and who you in particular claim to be. Joseph called you a white posing as Cherokee. I don't go that far, but I do think you're someone who both does not know what is right and traditional and often does not care.
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Al,
This is what I said concerning the blood quantum. Its kinda funny to be quoting myself;
"And for this Blood Quantum thing, to me it is important. I don't care who calls me a bigot. If you have 1/32 or 1/64 blood you are not an Indian in my opinion. I have know idea what you look like or what your blood is. You have danced around that issue quite well. I do know what David Michael Wolfe looks like though. He's the other head of the Nuyagi Keetoowah. He's a fat, pink skinned, balding, white man claiming to be Cherokee. Maybe we'll all be lucky here and he'll start to post too. "
Joseph
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Oh Man, are you a drudge. I just come home from doing a ceremonial out on the Island with the Montauks for their children and Elders. Was on my feet with the spirits giving names for five hours and came home happy and positive and I run into someone that sounds like a preacher demeaning Secular Humanists. Lighten up. Also talk to Joseph. He said no such thing to either me or my wife in private. He was quite human.
As for your board, I did the same. I copied the whole thread and e-mailed it to several chiefs and councils around the country. They weren't all that impressed with you or your site. In fact they suggested that I was idiotic not to know whether you were a teenager or not.
You really should read that Warfield book. It would explain what I have not been able to get across to you. Also they didn't have a problem with what I said because they are artistically motivated while you seem more regular school. You can't learn to sing from a book.
Well that's enough tit for tat. Can't we just get over this head butting? You don't know me and my writings are only clear to those who do. The same is true for us about you and your group here.
It's embarrassing to wear a tuxedo and have no pants.
Don't take yourself so seriously. The world gets along just fine and you shouldn't be so manipulatable by people who do not have your best interests in mind or care one whit about you.
Sorry, I tend to be overbearing at advice. Just forget that. But do tell us something about your life just as I have done with mine. Consistency is the land of bores. Don't be consistent. The doorway to real learning is often found in the mistake and not the consistent.
Ray Evans Harrell
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"You don't know me and my writings are only clear to those who do."
That'd be sad if true, because then no one could ever possibly understand anything you've written here. Which is true about half the time...
For all your repeated claims to not care about what we think, you're going to a lot of trouble trying to convince us you're legit. Even trying to get alleged others across the country to wade through this thread of over 70 posts. And most of them were written by you and very long winded. I wonder if that could be called cruel and unusual punishment.
Who I am is all over this board, and I've said as much during replies to you. I suppose if you really wanted I could send you my CV and list of publications...
"they didn't have a problem with what I said because they are artistically motivated while you seem more regular school."
Oh those poor misunderstood artistes! Always spelled with an e in it of course...
"It's embarrassing to wear a tuxedo and have no pants."
Insert Mel Brooks routine here...
"Sorry, I tend to be overbearing at advice."
You tend to be overbearing, period, esp since no one asked for your advice.
"Consistency is the land of bores."
Bad metaphors are sure boring...
"Can't we just get over this head butting?"
Sure, just don't be so demanding. We've been pretty gracious to you in here, considering.
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Still not specific Al,
Still quoting people instead of letting them speak for themselves. That is not traditional or Indian. It is without honor.
Just put a Bio on the list. Put your bio on the list and encourage the others to do the same. That is what any professional list does and builds trust.
As for "insecurity". Being transparent is not being insecure. You be transparent and not off list but on. That would show your security and honesty.
CVs are much too long. I haven't been able to get my documented CV down below fifty pages and six CD recordings. I do send one out to universities and business people with the recordings. The board of Advisors to MCORE, my company, would knock your eyes out. All of these things are available and corroboration is on the internet as I said.
Allen at least stuck his name and title on his letter. He took the heat. You are just a gossip.
One of the ways in which people like you are so destructive can be illustrated with Disney's current Carib cannibal reprise of their Pirates of the Caribbean movie. It goes back to Pocahontas which was going to be a movie in that spirit. The production team called the American Indian Community House and my old student Jane Lind to recommend Indian people who were professional singers to come down and read a new script and make a first take recording of the music.
The words were by Steven Schwartz, a sweetheart of a guy and a first class lyricist. ("Godspell", "Moses, Prince of Egypt" etc.) The music was by Allen Menken the award winning writer of projects going back to "Little Shop of Horrors" and forward to Beauty and Beast and the Little Mermaid. David Friedman was the third member of the team. Friedman is one of the most respected composers on Broadway and wrote the music for "King Island Christmas" the story about the Inuit on King Island.
Enter the Indians. We walked into that project and it was filled with stereotypes although the team was very open to trying to do away with them. They were talking to Indian composers Dennis Yerry (Black Elk Speaks) and Joan Henry about these issues and eventually to me and Russell Means. They moved from a typical horror stereotype show to a children's show that I was proud to have my daughter see.
Disney was the most sensitive of corporations that I had ever worked with and the production team was not only open to Indian opinion but when I discovered they were doing "Hunchback of Notre Dame" I gave Steven Schwartz all of my Gypsy research that I had gotten from Ian Hancock the Romany rep from the UN and the Holocaust Museum. (Hancock had worked with us to remove the historical stereotypes from Carmen, a production we did at La Mama E.TC. in New York.)
continued
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The Pocahontas team moved almost 180 degrees from their original stereotypes. The story by Schwartz was not historical, it was an animated movie for kids. A fantasy on a historical theme for children. If it had been historical Pocahontas would have been topless and a nubile 13 years of age. Also the name Pocahontas would have been translated and you know the translation as well as I. Not for children in the Bible Belt.
The English were portrayed, for the first time, as the goons that they were and the Indians even had a provincial idiot in the boyfriend. He was the typical character that we used to call a "looney tune." In this production he died.
Pocahontas also had her "medicine" in the animals and the trees. The production team was introduced to and consulted with a Powhattan family of Elders from down South and the Disney team studied hard and listened to what we had to say. I believe Joan Henry set that up but I could be wrong. They still missed the oratorical style of the Southern tribes and went for Northern Plains as more commercial and recognizable as "Indian". They also gave Pocahontas a Hopi top to cover what would have scandalized the movie. In the end, instead of "Sioux Me" we got a sympathetic but stylistically flawed, movie that did not hurt Indian people and set a tone for reconciliation in the children. Even Russell was proud, and he had given them dung from the beginning about his quarters. We were happy just not to have payed for the tickets. The room was fine. Russell was the prettiest NDN I had ever seen.
Well the movie was released and all of a sudden everything went wrong. Even on our Nuyagi Keetoowah Council we had a writer writing a book about stereotypes (that I didn't know of) who was collaborating with academics from Oklahoma to tear the movie down. People who hadn't seen and refused to see it, wrote the most awful things. One of my board members is a Wall Street Entertainment Guru who was familiar with the stats on the Disney "hit" on Pocahontas and he said they "took a bath." The sequel was made and they refused to have anything to do with Indians and now we have cannibal Caribs. Pocahontas was the last straw for these folks on the Council who moved their office to a members house in Pomona. The traditional wing that built on the Founder's library and oral teachings stayed in New York City with the community, the charters and the Stompground. The story is much more complicated than that but Council business is private by law and I won't discuss that here.
We thought we had built a relationship with Disney that would bring more sensitive movies for our children and supply jobs for Indian people in the future. Jim Fall, Joan Henry, Russell Means and myself, wrote extensively to Indian groups on the internet but the negative far outweighed the positive and we just could not fight it and live our lives. We don't make a living being Indian. We are Indian. We live where our communities are. We have daily connections with them and we provide services without government help or request.
Life is like with Pocahontas where they initially heard many Indian people, it all came down to people who were trained and could do the job, no matter what their ethnic background. The Indians in the cast ended up singing British parts as well. We liked that.
It was not art but commerce and that is what they are. Those writing half-baked books on stereotypes were also about commerce. They had their opinions and their salaried jobs for publish or perish and they were not going to talk to anyone else.
People in New York art circles know my reputation on stereotypes. I've fought them for 48 years working on projects about many peoples. In each case we have gone for truth and beauty. The beginning is to tell the deeper truths that make us all who we are. I took the heat on Carmen because I said the Gypsies had a culture and fifteen years later everyone agrees, but I got hit by the Times for such an absurd proposition. The same was true of the Spanish life of Garcia-Lorca that we did and the Aztec Quetzalcoatl Lord of Dawn that we did as well. People came into the projects with stereotypes and we replaced those stereotypes with research and the development of a performance skill. I am proud of the members of those companies now developing other projects with the same aesthetic and sense of balance.
Ray Evans Harrell
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Ray,
It doesn't matter what anyone's intent was or was Disney's intent was with the movie Pocohantas. It was the end result. My son was was in preschool when that movie came out. All the children were 'playing' the movie. And they designated him to play the 'savage', a term used in the movie. And of course the teachers thought this okay, since they were children. The teachers even went as far as having a project where the kids gave themselves Indian names. Didn't matter that I complained to them, they were the teahers they knew more than me.
I am a storyteller, I do many programs thorughout the school year in schools, mainly K-6. After that movie came out I would have kids argue with me that I was not an Indian because I did not look like one in the movie. Where was my bow and arrows and knife. Why did I have a shirt on. The list goes on.
What that movie did was re-enforce stereotypes for yet another generation of children. Forget all the adults, the movie was for children. And I truly believe that Disney's intent was one thing and one thing only - $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Joseph
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Joseph,
Did you see the movie?
The Savages were the colonists.
It was about stereotypes. Was the audience so dumb that that obvious point went over their heads or did they have a conflict of interest?
My problem with the use of the word "savage" is that its actual meaning is the opposite of city dweller. Farmers are the original European savages. But Disney was not interested in that but the common meaning with Americans. The greatest Savage of all according to them was the fat Englishman with the little cute dog.
I certainly used the movie in my community to remove stereo-types. By the way, convention is the term we use in opera and it means tradition and stereotype comes from typesetting and means the type that stays in place each time the newspaper is printed. The header.
We need to diminish the complexity around this word and return it to its meaning. The word conservative comes from the same meaning.
Good to hear from you,
Ray
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Ray,
I saw the movie. I think the target audience were children and so many things go over thier heads.
I think that since none of this has much to do with the original topic, and if you want to keep the thread about the movie going, maybe move it over to Etectera. Can't think of where else. Just an idea.
Joseph
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Well this thread has grown, and I think it has outgrown me. :(
I don't know or care much about dancing or singing in operas & such, and I don't hold Hollwood or Broadway as any better than any place else. And Ray, I doubt you know or care much about partial differential equations or fourier transforms . . . so there, we're even.
You never made any effort to answer my questions, so there was never an need to respond -- still isn't.
however . . .
When you put Waite and Ross both as part of your NJ group founders I'm perplexed as they fought on opposite sides in the Civil War. I find it hard to believe they'd have been "buddy-buddy" in NJ -- oops --Elias Boudenot didn't live that long, did he? Ya think his ghost mighta' "spirit travelled" up to NJ?
And I suspect others here might have some gray hair, too -- for the last 3 or 4 years my temples seem to be spreadng grayness to the rest of my head almost daily it seems worse -- not that I'm lookin' that close.
Vance
ps -- Ray, if you were more respectful to Dr. Allen or were humble enough to make an attempt to communicate your group to better known Keetowah in Ok or NC or if they'd talk to yall, I'd be more willin' to give yall the benefit of the doubt, but right now your refusal to answer simple questions makes that not very likely.
I'm nobody special, and I make big blunders that I'll always regret -- I'm not like you, perfect & all -- I guess that's another reason you irritate me just a little bit . . .
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I meant to say it is not likely I'll believe you at the end of that comment, not the Keetooway Society. I am not qualified to know what they'll do or think.
Alos I noticed you mention that you speek "Cherokee English". Does that mean you go around sayin' " Osiyo yall" and "howdy u-na-li-i" a lot? Just curious . . .
vance
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Got a new report on Harrell.
"My friend was talked into going to one of his teaching workshops held annually. She was told he was fluent in Cherokee, was a great teacher and that he was traditional. She is Cherokee and wanted to learn.
Well, nothing was as it was supposed to be. The places to stay were not ready and she had to find someone to stay with as she doesn't have lots of money. An elder lady offered to let her stay with her in exchange for help getting around. My friend said that was a saving grace as she got to leave early when this lady tired.
Ray is not fluent in Cherokee. His "ceremonies" are written down and he reads from them as he does the ceremony! And he sings the ceremonial songs in OPERA.
She said that was rather comical, actually. She said he asked on the first day, what people knew and then incorporated their answers in his handouts!
She came home in disgust at their "medicine chief" as he called himself. She said what little she knows, it is still more than what Ray knows. She also said he is a white man.
She was told not to say anything bad about him or his teachings when she got home. And has since
received emails with glowing reports about how wonderful it all was."
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As all of you can see, Vance and I got this thread started quite a while back. At the time I wanted to expose David Michael Wolfe for the fraud that he is, still is. But during our postings Ray Harrell replied.
Last year I was invited by the Nuyagi Keetowah to come to their week long workshop to judge for myself. I did this. I had a great time and was satisfied with how everything went including ceremony. I went again this year. I know for a fact that the only expenses anyone had to put out was for their travel.
And so I was livid, to say the least, when I read the second hand (not directly from the accuser) comments in Reply #86. I know who this woman is. She informed us all that she is Mohawk not Cherokee. But before I go on I want to make it clear that I will not go tit for tat with replies about this. This woman is a liar and I want to set the record straight.
The fact that she makes a judgment on anyone ethnicity is amazing, considering she looks as white as snow. Good thing the Cherokee Nation did not use this basis to judge Will Rogers.
As for a place to stay, the cabins were ready when they arrived. The Clan Mothers, at their own expense, bought mattresses, feather beds, pillows, throw rugs, etc. For this woman to say there was no place to stay is an insult to the Clan Mothers. Not very Indian-like.
This woman, along with two others (there were 15 people in all) never attend the morning ritual of going to water. Yet another insult.
They never shared any meals with us except the one when we all went out to eat. The communal evening meal, they were never there. Yet another insult.
As for Ray singing opera, well this woman needs to check the definition of opera. Perhaps cultural events are at a minimum in her part of the country and she has no clue as to what opera is. Or perhaps like a lot of newly-discovered-that-they-were-Indians, she expects Indian singing to sound like a powwow.
I get the feeling that this woman is gunning for her own tribe and is taking target practice here. She has a bone to pick with her tribal leadership and she should do that privately. As for the glowing reports, I was the only one that had a positive report to send to her Chief.
Before hearsay is put on the internet you should check your facts. And maybe this woman should have the guts to post her own ramblings, or better yet face the person she is belittling and make her accusations. But alas, like so many on the internet it is easier to hide behind the keyboard. By the way, that’s why I went up, to stop hiding and see for myself.
Joseph
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I am confused . I know next to nothing about Cherokee culture , and I have no idea who any of these people are , but reading through this thread I see ;
Reply 23 , from a letter from Wyman Kirk Cherokee Nation Oklahoma
"While the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society website I saw last year is no longer in operation, I do not think that they have desisted in their claims of being "acknowledged" or somehow validated by the Stokes Grounds Keetoowahs. On that specific point, I can completely and wholeheartedly state that they have no authorized, valid, or legitimate association, connection, or affiliation to the Keetoowah Society. From my research I found that the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society (Nuyagi, as an FYI, means "New York") calls their grounds "Stokes" as well." ( continued ... )
"The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society, in my opinion, practices cultural appropriation at its worst; it is cultural theft, cultural abuse, and highly offensive to those who had to fight to preserve the traditional religion, traditional medicine, and traditional ways of life." ( continued....)
reply 24 , more from the letter from Wyman Kirk
"I'll state once again, for the record: The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society is not recognized in any way, shape, or form as a legitimate Cherokee organization in terms of a connection to the Oklahoma-based Keetoowah Society. Any claims that the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society makes about being "recognized" (or any language to the similar) by the Cherokee Nation, by any of the "real" Keetoowah Society fires in Oklahoma, is blatantly false and wholly untrue. " ( continued ...)
Reply 25 another letter from Wyman Kirk .
"I will also note that I am not an expert of any kind, and that while I stand by what I said, I am certainly willing to listen to others much wiser than me on this (or any other topic). All of which is to say that if my friend and colleague Richard, or someone who does have recognized/valid authority on the matter (someone like Crosslin Smith for example, an Oklahoma Cherokee medicine man connected to the ceremonial grounds), has something different to say, then I would defer to their expertise." (continued ... )
Reply 30 , from a letter from Richard Allen of the Cherokee Nation Oklahoma
Hello Joseph
We are familiar with this fraudulent group ,one of more than 200 with which we are familiar through our own research, the research of certain colleagues regarding these fraudulent groups or through inquiries such as yours. The so-called Nuyagi Keetoowah Society has no relationship with any of the legitimate Cherokee entities as they suggest." ( continued... )
Contiued into reply 31, the letter from Richard Allen
"I believe that Wyman Kirk has already addressed the Keetoowah issue completely and with more information and comprehension than I could provide.
Dr. Richard L. Allen
Policy Analyst
Cherokee Nation "
So coming back to the more recent posts concerning this group and someones reports of what their friend says happened ; Maybe what this person is saying their friend experienced is incorrect , and I can't comment on that either way, but what I am confused by , is what Joseph is saying .
Joseph , when you say ;
Last year I was invited by the Nuyagi Keetowah to come to their week long workshop to judge for myself. I did this. I had a great time and was satisfied with how everything went including ceremony. I went again this year. I know for a fact that the only expenses anyone had to put out was for their travel.
Am I understanding this to mean that now you ( Joseph ) feel there is no problem with this group , as "the only expenses anyone had to put out was for their travel "?
I agree charging money is one of the most degrading types of cultural exploitation , and it shows at least some respect , if nothing like that is happening here , but claiming to be someone you are not , or to know something you do not , and then to become an important part of peoples lives , on the basis of this , is also wrong .
Are you satisfied that this group is who they say they are , and they do know what they claim to know , even though the policy analyst of the Cherokee in Oklahoma wrote you and said , "We are familiar with this fraudulent group ..." ?
As I say I am confused ... Is the Nuyagi Keetowah Society that David Michael Wolf is involved in , a false one , but the one that Ray Harrel is involved in for real ? I had not seen anything in this discussion that gave me that impression .
Have I missed something ????
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I am also confused.
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I guess I must have confused more than just the two of you. The Nuyagi Keetowah Society which is incorporated in the state of New York, is not run by Ray Harrell but it is this group (the one with Ray) that legally is the Nuyagi Keetowah Society. The other group, headed by David Michael Wolfe is legally non existent.
There are probably many here on this website from all across the country that have had some negative encounter with DMW.
And yes, what goes on at the Nuyagi Stomp Grounds is real. Being sanctioned by the CNO, well, hmmm, does it matter? Not to me.
I have found NAFPS a valuable website in exposing frauds such Harley Regan, Mary Thunder and on and on. These are people who not only take people's money but break many written laws along the way. The Nuyagi Keetowah never have and never will fall into this classification.
Anyway, if anyone wants to write to me privately about this with questions I will answer what I can.
Joseph
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This discussion troubles me . I only know these people through what they have posted about themselves , so it a bit awkward to respond to this specific situation in a fair way , but some of the underlying principals are bothering me ....
I feel sympathy for people of Native descent who end up living away from their tribe in an urban area .
The problem is , urban areas often don't have the natural checks and balances that are found in a continuously existing Native community . It is a lot easier for imposters to worm their way into an urban community without being noticed. People do get hurt by frauds .
Questions like ; "Who is your family , what are their names , what tribe are you from , who in your tribe knows you , who taught you , and who in your tribe would recognize this person as a qualified teacher ?" are all necessary questions to ask in urban areas . One thing about this conversation that bothers me is I don't see these questions being answered .
From DIGOWELI's introduction posted in the welcome section ;
Harrell is the Traditional Cherokee Priest (Didahnvwisgi) in the Nuyagi Keetoowah Community, (.. )Harrell has been with the community since its founding and was the legally adopted son of the Founder and High Medicine Priest until his death in 1988. As his last apprentice and son he has served the community as Priest since that time.
reply 24 Wyman Kirk
The particular problem with the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society is threefold: (1) Claims to some link between them and the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society, (2) Claims to "traditional" medicine knowledge, and (3) Claims to "cultural" Cherokee knowledge in terms of religion, beliefs, etc.
Reply 41 Digoweli
Just because someone in the CNO government doesn’t know us doesn’t mean that someone else there doesnt.
If there is someone in the CNO, who knows this group is real , why not just name who this is , and how to contact them ?
Reply 45 to Vance from Digoweli , when Vance asks who his Cherokee ancestors were .
OK, if your family is the reason that you are Cherokee then you are only half way there. ( ... ) The first stone is blood but that is only a beginning and sometimes people jump over that stone.
I have relatives all over Oklahoma and all over the nation both by blood and marriage. That is by my natural parents. My adopted Father and last teacher was a Webber and that is not an unknown name down around Gore. His wife was Ani-Awi York from Tennessee.
May be I missed something , but I can't find where any Cherokee ancestors are identified.
In my opinion , if a person holds a public position of trust in the community, because of some sort of connection to a Native community, the basis of this connection should easily verifiable to the public . If a person in such a position publicly states they are Cherokee or some other type of "Native" , then they also have a responsibility to explain their relationship and exact name and birth place of who it was in their family who was "Native" . If someone is not Native by blood , but was adopted and taught by someone who was , and someone holds a public position because of this , I believe there is a responsibility to clearly explain this , and give first and last names , tribe , and name people who know them there , so people have the information they need to verify this .
People with any real connection with Native communities and culture are aware of the problems created by frauds .
It seems to me , if people are who they say they are , and they are real Spiritual leaders , these people would understand the reason people need to be sure who they are . As a general rule of thumb , I think people need to be really cautious of anyone claiming to be a Native Spiritual leader , who gets defensive or evasive when asked about these things .
There is another aspect to this interaction which also causes me to feel concern ;
Reply 34 Digoweli
I called the High School Counselor Dr. Richard Allen and he did not convince me that he was equipped to make the judgements he made.
Richard Allen reply 48
Contrary to what Mr. Harrell has posted on this site, he sent me an email this morning dated: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:12 AM. About an hour or two later, he called me. I emphatically state that this is the first contact that I have had with Mr. Harrell by email or by land line.
Mr. Harrell called to ask whether I had received his email and I responded I had and that "He was still a wannabe" to which he responded that I was a "sh*thead" and hung up the phone. That is the extent of any conversation that he and I have ever had.(.. )
I am a policy analyst employed by the Cherokee Nation not a high school counselor as was stated by Mr. Harrell.
reply 49 Digoweli
I realize that Mr. Allen doesn't remember that he told me his PhD was in education and counseling. (...) Maybe he has lead damage like those of us from Picher. The VA has some good drugs for memory and as a Marine he is eligible. I don't really care what his job is at present. We all do different things. I did call him at his home about six months ago(..)
Reply 60 Digoweli
Accusing someone of lacking authenticity is to judge their soul. That is the real curse not saying that someone is a nuts head .
I don't agree with name calling . As a strategy it communicates a lack of self control , empathy , and possibly a lack of awareness of what the issues actually are . Name calling only lowers the credibility of whoever uses this tactic , and , it does nothing to increase understanding , or cooperation .
Personally , I would not be comfortable to attend a ceremony which was being led by someone , who , when feeling irritated , would make suggestions that in my opinion , seem to be aimed at unfairly undermining a persons character and credibilty . In relationships of equal power this behavior is just rude . In relationships of unequal power this tactic could be devastating .
I don't know anything about Cherokee ways , but Wyman Kirk and Richard Allen do .
There is probably good reasons for wanting to keep these traditions within the balance provided by a Native community . For one thing , in community with deeply rooted traditions there are many people who know enough about their culture , to notice when an individual should not be taken seriously .
So in this way , being sanctioned by the CNO does matter, and I doubt this lack of support from recognized CNO spokespeople is just CNO has an unfriendly attitude towards their unenrolled cousins in New York .
As I understand it , this website is here to teach people some general guidelines how to recognize frauds . In this discussion ,I see a number of what are usually obvious warning signs . There may be some things I am not understanding in this particular situation, but I am feeling concerned when a long time member of this group , who is Cherokee , seems to be suggesting , these warning signs are something it is OK to disregard , but no public explanation is offered explaining why .
This becomes even more confusing , if people believe Joseph's opinion , that maybe it doesn't matter , if a group claiming to be Cherokee , ( or some other Native group ) is not sanctioned by the tribe they claim affiliation with .
I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone , but, Jopseph , generally speaking , what exactly are you suggesting people use as a point of reference ? I hope you will clarify this .
I don't like to see people get hurt
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Who is Cherokee, who is not? Good question. Politically, the only real Cherokees are those that have their cards to prove it. Cards issued by the government or a government sanctioned Cherokee government. I will not go into a long dissertation on the problems inherent in this.
So leaving aside the government whether the US, or the CNO, or the UKB, or the eastern band, we still have the question, who is a Cherokee. Each of us must answer that for his or herself.
As I have stated, I have had experience for many years with David Michael Wolfe and his cohorts. Before I could condemn Ray and everyone else in New York I had to have 'real time', first hand, in the flesh, experience. Not from what two 'officially sanctioned' Cherokees have said. I do not mean to critisize them, its just that we all must be careful when doing research who we claim as authorities. Will Dr. Allen have his job if Cheif Smith loses the next election? Will he still be an authority to quote.
As I stated before, if anyone has any questions, please email me.
Joseph
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Just some thoughts,
The standard on this board for being allowed to give one's opinion has never been, do you have a federal card. Nor do I think that just because someone has a federal card, that makes them right in all aspects of the culture.
And, personally, I don't think any Cherokee group should have to claim authority or acquaintence with a federally recognized one as the only way to claim legitimacy.
If they haven't obviously lied, (claiming, for example that their NY group is in a traditional Cherokee territory, like a couple of groups in California have, for example) obviously claimed something false (selling tipis and plains sweats as traditional to Cherokee, again as some have) then why are we worried? We've got a respected member on the board who has personally checked them out, and from what I've seen he knows what he's talking about and has nothing to gain, either monetarily or through ego by lying about it.
just my two cents
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Some of this I already said to Joseph in an IM. Naturally I defer to our Cherokee members in the end. But plenty of things about Harrell concern me. His ignorance of some of the most basic Cherokee history, such as claiming Boudinot was founding a town in New England when he'd already been executed. His complete lack of maturity and inability to say two sentences without insulting someone made him seem very unlikely to have ever been entrusted with teachings about ceremonies. And not the least, his constantly dodging the question of whether he was Cherokee or not.
The opinion of the CNO does count for quite a lot. Dr Allen's opinion counts for quite a lot, and still would whether he ever worked for the CNO or not. I'd hate to see us start dismissing what rez govts have to say. Too many of the wannabes do that as though it supposedly makes them more pure.
Still, Harrell is still listed under Research Needed for a reason. At worst he's either misguided, or has some knowledge but still does some wrongs things. At best he knows his ceremony but is a complete jerk to people.
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I aint saying Harrel isn't off, nor am I saying that Dr. Allen (I do have respect for his opinion) should be dismissed out of hand - but what I am saying is that non-recognized groups can still be legitimate even if the federal ones haven't heard of them/don't know about them/don't approve of them. That's all.
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Off topic replies have been moved to [link=http://www.newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1156923827]This Thread[/link]
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where did all the post go
i know some where moved but several are missing is there 3 threads of this now or did several post get deleted
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Some of this I already said to Joseph in an IM. Naturally I defer to our Cherokee members in the end. But plenty of things about Harrell concern me. His ignorance of some of the most basic Cherokee history, such as claiming Boudinot was founding a town in New England when he'd already been executed.
I see that this thread was recently inquired about.....just in the interest of historical clarity on this one point, i beleive the reference to Boudinot was actually regarding the original Elias Boudinot, the white benefactor of Gallegina Oowatie who attended school in the east and took his name in honor of him.
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My post above is not edited properly; Al's comment was above, and my comment is below the first 2 sentences. I'm not very computer savvy, sorry.
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I did some research on some of what REH mentioned about his family a while back. I have been refraining from posting it as I'm not sure his family background is relevent to this discussion.
But I get tired of hearing people repeatedly trying to brush off the opinion of Wyman Kirk and Richard Allen of the CNO , and I am feeling a need to point out the fallacy of these agruments.
This has come up in another thread on Sam Beeler who seems to be using the Nuyagi Keetoowah to validate his own ideas about the history and culture of the Sand Hill's band . A supporter of Beeler's dismisses the opinions of the CNO on the Nuyagi keetoowah and the problems i see in using this group as a part of the cultural history of another group wanting to claim legitimacy . These opinions which are critical of the Nuyagi Keetoowah are being discredited by saying the people in the CNO who don't support the Nuyagi Keetoowah are irrelevent because they are "Christians"
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2215.15
Here is another example of the kind of statements I am reffering to
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=157.45
Reply #49
DIGOWELI
( REH )
Both Allen and Kirk felt no shame at maligning not only a young organization like ourselves, in existence since the 1978 law made it legal, but an old community resource of Cherokees and Lenape (the Sand Hill People) that Touching Leaves the great Lenape Linguist scholar paid homage to when she came to New York before she died. The community historian, who happens to be a member of the CNO, has carefully documented the history of the community and been peer reviewed and is exhibited in two Museums in New Jersey as a cultural resource. The community is dispersed with only a few residents now but to deny their existence is criminal. Where is your head Allen and Kirk.
What tunes are you singing?
Ultimately It all comes down to government collaborator's descendants being recognized and Oklahoma traditionals being dis-enfranchised. Ask him why they don't include the traditional Keetoowahs who refused and still refuse numbers in the nation?
So if the CNO members who don't support the Nuyagi Keetoowah are all Christians and governement collaborators, lets check out what kind of traditional Cherokee people REH feels are getting disenfranchized ....
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=978.0
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2006, 05:21:25 PM »
REH who was posting as Sam Nodoc
"If you check the Watie regiment in Starr you can find four different families of his relatives. Reynolds, Webbers, Smiths and a Harrell was the Chaplin of the regiment. (The Harrell Institute in Muskogee was one of the first Cherokee schools .... )"
OK so REH says this Chaplin was a relative.
Below is a website that allows you to search for any soldier who fought in the civil war .
http://www.civilwar.nps.gov/cwss/soldiers.cfm
There was a Chaplin named Harrell who served in Stand Waties regiment.
John Harrell (First_Last)
Regiment Name General and Staff Officers, Corps, Division and Brigade Staffs, Non-com. Staffs and Bands, Enlisted Men,
Staff Departments, C.S.A.
Side Confederate
Company
Soldier's Rank_In Chaplain
Soldier's Rank_Out
Alternate Name
Notes
Film Number M818 roll 11
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/Chronicles/v004/v004p116.html
The first Presiding Elder of the District in which Chickasaw Academy was located was
Reverend John Harrell.1 Reverend Harrell was formally transferred to the Indian Mission
Conference in 1850, where he continued to labor until the end of his life. After serving
four years as Superintendent of Ft. Coffee Academy he was made Presiding Elder of the
District in which Chickasaw Academy was located and from that time on he was either
Presiding Elder or Mission Superintendent (except during the War in which he served as
Chaplain, first of Gordon’s Regiment of Arkansas Volunteers and afterward in a similar
capacity with the brigades of General W. L. Cabell and General Stand Watie), until the
appointment which was made shortly before his death, which was that of Superintendent of
the Asbury Manual Labor School at Eufaula, with a monthly preaching appointment at Vinita.
His death occurred December 8, 1876, at Vinita, where he had gone to fill an appointment,
so he literally died in the harness. It is said that Reverend Harrell was a man of magnetic
personality and of imposing physical presence. He was always humble and unassuming, yet
possessed of a courage that was daunted at nothing, added to this was an undying love for
his work and was therefore a splendid type of all that was best in the frontier Mission
worker. His remains were laid beside those of his wife who died but a few weeks before at
the Asbury Manual Labor School.
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/chronicles/v011/v011p0739.html
The above link contains an excellent photograph of Rev John Harrell .
Born in Perquimmans County, North Carolina, October 21, 1806, and died on December 6,
1876, at the age of seventy years, one month, and seventeen days. Licensed to preach in
1823, when but seventeen years of age, ( con...)
(... ) volunteers were transferred to the Missouri Conference, which at that time
included the Territory of Arkansas and missions among the western Indians, John Harrell being
Page 744
appointed to Washington & Cherokee Mission, with A. M. Scott as assistant, said Mission being located in the northwest part of Arkansas Territory.
Here commenced the mission work which he continued as long as he lived. In 1836 when the Arkansas Conference was organized, on account of location, of his then work, he remained in the Arkansas Conference until 1850, when he was transferred to the Indian Mission Conference which had been organized in 1844. He filled different positions of circuit and station preacher and presiding elder. When transferred by Bishop Paine to the Indian Mission Conference he was placed in charge of Fort Coffee School, where he remained for four successive years as superintendent. For the year 1854-5 he was presiding elder of the Choctaw District and for seven years (1855-62) of the Cherokee District. For three years (1862-5) he was Superintendent of Army Missions. For 1865-6 he was Presiding Elder of Cherokee District. For three years (1866-69) he filled the appointment of Superintendent of
Missions of Indian Mission conference, traveling from one district to another and from one part of the Western territory in which the Plains Indians were located to other parts, using all of his powers to sustain, arouse and revive the then drooping spirits of the Church in the Indian country.
"He was married in Washington County, Arkansas, in 1832, to Miss Eliza Williams, who died on November 20, 1876, preceding him to the grave about a month. Nine children were born to them, seven of whom preceded him in death. Two daughters and two grand-children survived him."
I don't know if Rev John Harrell was a direct ancestor of REH, but as he is surnamed Harrell, is said to be a relative , and came to Arkansas and OK from NC , this seems likely .
REHl also posted some family information in reply to William Greywolf's introduction;
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=202.msg917#msg917
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2005, 03:49:53 PM »
My greatgrandfather was in his mother's belly in 1838 when the army came to the door. His father and 9 children escaped with his mother to Mississippi where they were taken in and given new names by an MD named Herndon Ray in Yallobusha County. Both my father and I carry his name as an honor for what he did for our family.
My greatgrandfather was born in Dr. Ray's house and grew up with him as Charles Jasper Reynolds. When the Civil War came along Charles went to Arkansas to join the Cherokee regiment but that began the first conflict with the Cherokees of Oklahoma . No problem, he joined an Arkansas regiment and fought with Watie and the others. He was wounded and returned home but liked the Cherokees around Harrison Arkansas and moved there with his new wife. At the time of the Dawes Rolls he had no inclination to support any connection to the US government or to the faction in Oklahoma that did. He stayed put and eventually my Grandmother and her husband and children moved to Oklahoma to live amongst the Creeks. My great uncle went with the Choctaw and was adopted by the then current Choctaw Chief because of his service to the people. Wherever my family has been they have worked with our people and kept their own council. Many of the family are not in support of me doing things like talking on this list but I believe the time has come for us to be in and take our place in the world as who we are.
Ray Evans Harrell
So first I checked out the story that Mr Harrell's Greatgrandfather Charles Jasper Reynolds fought with Watie and others .
http://www.civilwar.nps.gov/cwss/soldiers.cfm
I did a search on the name Watie and this is what comes up ;
Soldier Names
Displaying records 1 to 6 of 6
1 Watie, Charles ,Confederate , 1st Regiment, Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, CSA
2 Watie, Cherles E. ,Confederate , 1st Regiment, Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, CSA
3Watie, Saladin ,Confederate ,1st Regiment, Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, CSA
4Watie, Stand ,Confederate , 1st Regiment, Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, CSA
5Watie, Stand ,Confederate ,General and Staff Officers, Non-Regimental Enlisted Men, CSA
6 Watie,Union ,Infantry ,3rd Regiment, Indian Home Guards, Kansas Infantry
This website allows you to click on the regiment information , which is also a link , and
from there you can choose either the whole list of soldiers in that regiment , or you can do
a search for a particular name in that regiment . I went through the whole list in case
there was an alternative spelling I had not thought of , and I did a search on the name Reynolds and Renolds . There is a George Renolds , but no Charles Renolds / Reynolds.listed in any of these regiments
I did find a Charles J Reynolds, But as far as i can tell he was not in the same regiment as the Waties and this looks to be a regular non Cherokee Arkansas regiment ;
Charles J. Reynolds (
Regiment Name 2 Mounted Rifles, Arkansas
Side Confederate
Company C
Soldier's Rank_In Private
Soldier's Rank_Out Private
Alternate Name
Notes
Film Number M376 roll 19
REH was also posting as Sam Nodoc . What is written in the thread below is in the third person but in reply #5 he admits he is REH
In this thread REH provides some more information about his family background. ( all the quotes below labled reply #1 REH are quoted from this thread linked to below )
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=978.0
Reply #1
REH
takes his name (he’s a Jr.) and his reputation very seriously
This would mean REH inherited his Dad's name .
REH mentions he doesn't want to name those who have passed on and out of respect for this i won't name his father. Instead I will post links and edited quotes from material which mentions someone with the same name as REH , who matches the description REH has given of his dad.
Reply #1
REH
His biological father is still held in high regard in Ottawa County and Bartlesville and his passing received an article in the Tulsa World Newspaper. The article noted the advances he had achieved in the school system at Picher in spite of the lead pollution.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=57272&archive=yes
[named edited], 78, retired teacher and counselor,
died Tuesday. Services 10:30 a.m. Friday, First Baptist
Church.
There is a website with lots of pictures of the Picher High school , some of which include REH and his Dad
http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1953.html
pretty good picture of "Mr Harrell" coach of girls basket ball
http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1958.html
Picture of R. Harrell . Probably Rays Dad . I think he is the man seated in the 4 H club picture , as the writting says there as 5 "officers " and 5 people seated at the front .
http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1954---.html
http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/tp.gif
Some pictures showing a young "Harrell" or R Harrell in band .
http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1957.html
http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1959.html
R. Harrell in Marching band ( (can't see much )
And below I found what looks like an old notice which gives the impression it was produced in by the Picher High Schoo. This notice advertises Ray Evans HarrelI as Cherokee.
http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/FamousPeople-.html
Ray Evans Harrell
Ray came from a family of professional and amateur musicions. His paternal Grand Mother was offered a scholorship in piano to New York Conservatory in Piano. She elected to raise seven children in the dust bowl of Oklahoma. (con..)
However on closer examination I doubt this notice was produced by the Picher High school. .
First off , Ray graduated in 1959 or 1960. This announcment lists his accomplishments of Piano Conducting Voice Enssemble Poetry Inprovisation teaching
I doubt Ray was doing all that when he graduated from Picher.
The next clue is this announcement lists Barbara McAlister European Opera Muskogee
http://www.barbaramcalister.com/resume.htm
Ms. McAlister’s international career began when she won the prestigious Loren Zachary Competition in Los Angeles. This led to engagements as Santuzza, Azucena, Carmen, Eboli, Ortrud and Ulrica in the opera houses of Passau, Koblenz, Bremerhaven, and Flensburg where she was engaged for 10 years. She also appeared as guest artist at Lübeck and Bielefeld Stadtththeatres.
http://www.zacharysociety.org/finalists.htm
Barbara McAlister Mezzo-Contralto 1974
Barbara McAlister Mezzo-Contralto 1975
http://www.zacharysociety.org/index.htm
The Loren L. Zachary Society
37th Annual Grand Finals Concert
Sunday, May 31, 2009
The Zachary Society for the Performing Arts was founded by the late Dr. Loren L. Zachary and Nedra Zachary in 1972. In every year since its founding the Society has held a Vocal
Competition for young opera singers.
So if that promotional announcement about Ray Evans Harrell was created by Picher High school, it must have been created after 1974 , at least 14 years after Ray Evans Harrell graduated.
I may be wrong, but I'm not under the impression Picher High school was actually a part of the Quapaw Nation or that it would reffer to itself this way - ( I haven't run across this anywhere else ) So I am thinking this notice was probably not created by Picher High school but by someone else who was interested in presenting this school as Indian , many years after REH graduated...
Here is another member of REH's family who he mentioned...
Reply #1
His father got his Master’s Degree from OU in History where he and his brother C. Clay [edit] His uncle C. Clay is still, at 90+. doing great things in Muskogee. One can just ask around about that. His stepson is the Senator from Oklahoma.
http://www.cityofmuskogee.com/shell.asp?pg=148
C. Clay Harrell Arboretum
The C. Clay Harrell Arboretum, dedicated on June 20, 1992 is named in honor of C. Clay Harrell, Muskogee’s former City Manager, founder of “A More Beautiful Muskogee” and tireless advocate for community beatification
http://www.muskogeephoenix.com/local/local_story_110005905.html/resources_printstory.
Is there an Okie from Muskogee who you admire?
“Muskogee is full of people that I admire. One that stands out in my mind is Clay Harrell. He is the founder of A More Beautiful Muskogee, Inc., which is an organization that has only one purpose — to make Muskogee a more appealing and more enjoyable place to live and visit. I have seen him out planting trees, painting houses, hauling trash — and getting the rest of us to help him. Clay is 95 years old now and he has slowed down a bit, but he still attends the meetings and knows what needs doing and gives good advice on getting it done.
REH did claim his Dad was Cherokee... Here is one example of many that specifically say this.
Reply #1
REH
As for Cherokee? He is by faith Keetoowah. His father was Tsalagi and his mother had Indian blood but long denied. Probably Chickasaw since her family had a long history around Ponotac County......
All of REH's family seem to be really nice people who have done a lot for their community. There is branches of REH's family REH hasn't mentioned which i haven't researched, so though I haven't seen any evidence of it, these people may have some Cherokee heritage back there. But what I don't see is anything that fits with the repeated suggestions these people were traditional Cherokee people who became alienated from the CNO because they could not collaberate with the Church and government.
Because of this , it seems really dishonest and disrespectful to accuse people who ARE selected as spokes people by the CNO of being irrelevent because they are Church and government collaberators .
In yet , this argument is repeatedly used to diminish the right of Cherokee people to define their own identity and culture and maintain and protect this as they see fit.
And then these people of distant descent who are often nothing more than wannabes get together and support each others lies and misrepresentations.
Reply #1
REH
He hopes that Nuyagi can present another option that is more positive for all. That is why they had a Chief’s conference of non-aligned Cherokee Chiefs last summer doing the Tribal Issues Management System of Interactive Management for the purpose of exploring what it would take to achieve Reconciliation between all Tsalagi peoples everywhere. They are raising money for an environmental conference this summer between native and non-native naturalists to deal with the problems of the animals in Sullivan County where the influx of humans is extreme on a wild population. They will again use the native TIMS process to examine the issue. A workshop for 2008 is planned with Dr. Jane Ely that will host a conversation between native healers from around the country.
Not meaning to be negative but just truthful, I suspect you are not aware of how many non-aligned (NA) Tsalagi do not like the CNO especially and as the Eastern Band becomes more political they are being included. These NAs are also unhappy with the current politics of the grounds and the UKB. They chose from 1880 to 1914 to refuse to enroll because they believed it meant the end of the Cherokee as a people and world Nation.
In fact they insist that those who did enroll on the Dawes Rolls early on, were either Collaborators, Prisoners (like Redbird Smith who was incarcerated at the time) Whitemen who wanted land and were the fathers of the “Sooners??? or were simply Cherokee Christians who believed spiritually that the old Nation was dead and heathen.
I'm not sure if REH's family background is directly related to his role of High Medicine Priest of the Nuyagi Keetoowah , as this seems to have been passed on to him through being adopted by the person who previously held this title within the Nuyagi Keetowah. So in this sense REH's family isn't really relevent to the position he claims.
I am posting this more as an example of why it so often seems so disrespectful when people who are in fact at most PODIAs descended primarily from colonists, dismiss the authority of the CNO as nothing more than an opinion coming from Church and government collaberators.
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Thanks for bumping this thread! I especially enjoyed reading posts #60, #87, #90 & #92.
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We all choose who to listen to.
I guess i should add this too ... It is from several years ago so maybe stuff like this is no longer going on ...
http://web.archive.org/web/20030802172553/http://www.auburnsem.org/edprog/ce0102/04_aspiritual.shtml
You will be welcomed by the Council of the Nuyagi Kee-too-wah Society and its medicine priest, Ray Evans Harrell.They have prepared a wonderful day of ceremonies, ritual, dance, and song to take place on the Auburn campus at Broadway and 121st Street.Leader for the day: Ray Evans Harrell, medicine priest, Nuyagi Kee-too-wah Society.
The entire series is planned and jointly sponsored by Auburn Seminary, the Temple of Understanding, the Psychotherapy & Spirituality Institute in New York City, and the Long Island Multi-Faith Forum.
Places will be reserved in the order that registrations (with payment of program fee) are received.
Program fee: $450for orientation session and series of eight; $65 per individual session
This was only one of eight sessions so it's not like the Nuyagi Keetowah were ever getting the full $450
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What? All this shows is that Harrell participated in a multi-faith conference on eight different world religious paths. I have no problem with it.