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Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: debbieredbear on December 11, 2005, 02:16:42 am

Title: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 11, 2005, 02:16:42 am
Radical Alternatives
New Age steals Native spirituality, identities

By Susana Adame
<http://www.easternecho.com/cgi-bin/works.cgi?Susana+Adame> */* Staff
Writer
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 2005

http://www.easternecho.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?31037

Are you guilty of the genocide of Native peoples?

Come on now. Don't back up. Just answer the question.

Although it may be tempting to answer an emphatic "NO," let's slow
things down a minute and examine what this "no" really means. For a
typical responder, "no" is more than likely predicated on two basic
assumptions of the meaning of genocide.First, that genocide of Native
peoples was an event that occurred centuries ago, and, second. that
genocide is something which entails direct physical violence against a
group of people.

But genocide does not always entail direct physical violence, and it's
not necessarily something that just ends. The American Heritage
Dictionary defines genocide the following: "The systematic and planned
extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic
group." Within this definition, it doesn't matter how the extermination
happens or how long the extermination takes. All that matters is the
extermination part.

In the case of Native peoples, genocidal extermination began as direct
physical violence, but over the years shifted to a "more peaceful" form
of genocidethe theft of Native identity. The logic goes, if there is no
such thing as a Native identity, then it stands to reason that there can
be no such thing as a Native person who needs a land base. This identity
theft has occurred in many different ways: for example, boarding schools
which "kept the child, killed the Native". More recently, however, this
theft has centered largely upon the appropriation of Native spirituality.

Native spirituality, unlike Christianity, is defined by a tribe's
relationship with their land base. In other words, unlike Christians,
who can simply walk into the church down the street to worship, Native
peoples need the land particular to their individual tribe to worship.
Furthermore, it is because the United States recognizes the specific
cultural need for a particular land base that Native peoples have
treaties and are considered sovereign nations by the U.S. government.


Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 11, 2005, 02:17:48 am
part2
So what does any of this have to do with genocide of Native peoples? In
the '80s, a spiritual movement started in the United States called the
New Age movement. For those of you who are too young to remember, the
New Age experience was a movement whose basic premise was the
"reclaiming" of a more nature-based religiosity. While this might sound
sweet and humanitarian, digging a little deeper into the practices of
New Agers demonstrates a group of people using genocidal practices to
become "more natural" (/unsurprisingly, they're mostly white/).

*At no time did New Agers do any of the hard work of researching their
own indigenous pasts to reclaim their own religious roots despite the
fact that many European tribes were strongly based in earth-centered
beliefs.* *No, New Agers went the easier route of "stealing" bits and
pieces of other religions and claiming them as their own. For example,
if you walk into a store catering to New Agers, you can find books and
other memorabilia based in religions as far ranging as Buddhism to
Taoism to the Kabbalah*.

Although it's not good to appropriate any religion, the various
religions that New Agers generally like to meddle with do manage to
retain a large measure of control simply through their relative size.
That is, a group of New Agers in Ann Arbor are not going to control how
Hinduism changes or manifests itself in India. It simply isn't going to
happen.

For Native peoples, however, this isn't the case. Representing only
about one percent of the overall population of the United States, Native
peoples are grossly outnumbered by New Agers when it comes to dealing
with them on a tribe-by-tribe basis. Furthermore, after centuries of
exploitation, imprisonment and murder for practicing their own religion,
most tribes maintain a strong tribally enforced silence surrounding
their religion. Outsiders are rarely, if ever, invited to participate in
any ceremonies of significance, and in many cases, urban Indians may not
even be allowed into a ceremony if their ties to the reservation
community are not strong.

Because Native communities exist with little power or control within
broader social structures, any self-proclaimed "medicine wo/man" can
make any outrageous claim s/he wants toand that claim will be believed
to the point of fanaticism by desperate white people who are tired of
the murder and greed their own religions are based upon.

For example, many New Agers love to put on their own versions of a
traditional Native "healing ceremony." "How-To" manuals and tapes are
always popular among New Agers as well. New Age gurus have literally
made millions off of their commercialization of Native spirituality.

But all this commercialization has created some insane problems for the
Native community. For example, Lisa Aldred, a scholar and lawyer who
represents Native peoples, points out that some New Agers have
copyrighted material on Native American spirituality, and sought
trademark protection of Native American spiritual themes. The Southwest
AIM Resolution observed that a group of non-Indians operating under the
name Vision Quest, Inc. were "stealing the name and attempting to steal
the concept of one of our most spiritual ceremonies." If non-Natives
control patents and trademarks of religious practices, then not only are
Native peoples denied the economic benefit of something they created,
but they also could be sued for practicing their own religion!

But most importantly, if New Agers succeed in their attacks against
Native control of their own spirituality, Native peoples will no longer
be a culture with specific and historic ties to a particular land base
and thus, they will no longer be Native peoples at all. The
five-hundred-year genocide of North American Indians will be completed
without shedding one drop of blood.

/So how are you participating in the genocide of Native peoples?/
Although you may not consider yourself a New Ager, these people have
been very successful in their integration of Native culture into
mainstream culture. Dream Weavers, sweat lodges, vision quests, and
medicine wheels are all things that have become normalized as "Native,
but not quite." Most people see no reason at all why they shouldn't be
allowed to buy a ready-made sweat lodge or as many medicine wheels as
they want, despite the fact that most Native activists decry the
commercialization of sacred artifacts.

But on a more local level, how many of you have taken Native American
classes? I'm not talking about classes that deal with actual issues or
topics, but those classes that dare to assume that all participants in
the class are somehow participating in a Native ceremony simply by
showing up for class? For example, maybe you sit in a "sacred circle"
before the class begins, or you don't study Trickster stories because
it's the time of the year Native peoples supposedly abstain from
Trickster stories. Here's a newsflash for you: if there is something
that Native peoples do or do not do out of religious observation, then
you, a non-Native outsider, should not being doing it at all, regardless
of what time of the year it is.

Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 11, 2005, 02:18:17 am
part3

Or how about those classes that teach sacred creation storieslike these
stories belong to anybody and can be heard by anyone? Have you taken any
of those? Although the teachers of these classes are well-meaning, the
danger in outsiders having control of creation stories is that they can
then be "colonized" by any non-Native who wishes to do so. And if any
non-Native can claim any creation story as his ownthus symbolically
'becoming Indian'then yet again, Native peoples no longer have a
singularly identifying culture which entitles them to a land base.

It's not that hard, really, to be just a little respectful to a culture
that has been attacked for over five hundred years. All Native peoples
are asking is for you to show their religion the same respect that you
would show Christians. But as I say that, I realize that most of
Christianity's religious structures and artifacts are for sale
somewhere. The greatest creation story of the Western world has been for
sale in one form or another for centuries. So maybe the problem is to
not necessarily leave Native peoples' religion alone, but to remember
the sacredness of your own religion. Will there ever be a time when the
Bible isn't for sale? Or is that too crazy a thought... even for a
Christian?

NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a
prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: plz on December 12, 2005, 12:18:24 am
Debbie,
I really like this.  If it is any indication of the beginning of a 'backlash' of the younger people against Nuage, I am encouraged.

thanks for sharing.
patty
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 12, 2005, 05:00:58 am
I posted it to alt.native and some guy whined his butt off about it. Apparently thought I wrote it. I ttold him to quit whining. Hehe
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Ric_Richardson on December 12, 2005, 05:07:27 am
Tansi;

This is a very good and interesting topic!  Thank you Debbie!

Intellectual property rights is an issue, currently being discussed in many areas, including at the United Nations.  Exploitation is common, especially in areas of Traditionally used Medicines and Ceremonies.  We know of Aboriginal lawyers who specialize in attempts to find ways of ensuring that Intellectual property rights extend to Aboriginal knowledge.

Education seems to be the key, in working toward Respect for our Traditional and Cultural knowledge.

In the 1980's, the Union of BC Indian Chiefs developed a very relevant paper that dealt with "Spiritual Abuse" and which spoke, at length about many of the areas which are being exploited by new agers.  I am sorry that I did not keep a copy of it!

Ric

Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: educatedindian on December 12, 2005, 01:59:10 pm
This is one of the best articles I've seen in a long while. Think I'll write her a thank you message.

Ric, can you think of any other ways to get hold of that paper? Do you remember some of the names involved? Groups that might have sponsored or worked with the Union, activist groups, universities, etc?

I did find this good paper on copyright and intellectual property from a Maori scholar that was sponsored by the BC chiefs.
http://www.ubcic.bc.ca/files/PDF/shand.pdf
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Ric_Richardson on December 12, 2005, 04:14:32 pm
Tansi;

I will try to obtain a copy of this paper on Spiritual Abuse, from the Union of BC Indian Chiefs, but will not be able to get it until the new year.

In 2003, my wife, Rose, made a presentation about our Traditional Medicines and their uses, in modern times, to the Indigenous Bar Association, at a conference called "Metis in the 21st Century."  Her presentation was entitled "Identity and the Environment Metis Medicinal Plants."

www.indigenousbar.ca/conferences/saskatchewan_conference_agenda.html

In her presentation, she mentioned Cultural property rights and the need for protection of these, in modern society.  We were fortunate to have met several Aboriginal lawyers who are working on the protection of Intellectual Property Rights.

Ric
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Ric_Richardson on December 12, 2005, 04:38:42 pm
Tansi;

I am not used to this new online world, but have found something that is from the Union of BC Indian Chiefs, related to Intellectual Property Rights.

http://www.ubcic.bc.ca/files/PDF/Posey_Indigenous.pdf

This is not the paper I spoke of, but may help to put some of the concerns in context.
Ric
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 12, 2005, 05:48:01 pm
 Hi Ric

I have noticed a tendency for anyone of mixed blood , especially people who grew up away fro Native communities to refer to themselves as "Metis." So I am wondering if, on a seperate thread if needed, you can point me to a definition and some resources. I do know of the Metis Resource Centre. I think this would be useful on this site as there are also frauds calling themselves Metis, such as Harley Reagan and that one gut, Manny Two Birds, I think. NEITHER are Metis under the terms that I understand a Metis to be.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Vance_Hawkins on December 14, 2005, 12:01:49 am
Over the past deacde I bet i have belonged to many yahoo groups, usually researching Cherokee genealogy, but not always.

Someone comes along thinking they are somehow a spiritual guru and others start treating them like they are royalty. They act like they are soooo knowledgeable and other posters act like they are talkng to a Sultan or something, symbolically bowing and cow-towing . . .

I always objected -- was always put down for it, by the group . . .  that happened to me so many times. There was a Metis group called "Southern Metis" that I was interested in for a while -- but that same attitude cropped up -- can't these people just talk normal? Say "howdy", tell corny jokes, not be afraid to say "I don't know" every once in a while? The older I get the more I relish saying "I don't know" . . . :) as opposed to trying to get in the last word -- that always backfires.

Debbie, the point I am gettin' at is -- everyone of those groups I just mentioned -- ALL OF THEM --  need to read what you just posted. Members of 100 or more home-made Cherokee tribes, and some from other as well -- are in DESPERATE DESPERATE need of a course in culture identity/Identity theft. It should be necessary reading before anyone is allowed to perform any genealogical searches for a long lost great-grandma who was "Indian".

Peple calling themselves "Chief so & so" -- might as well call themselves Chief of the Lions Club, or Chamber of Commerce, or members of some Masonic Lodge. Nobody is goin around sayin' I discovered my great grandma was English, so now I wanna write off & get my English Passport . . ."

vance

ps -- just got an idea -- you hear about identity theft -- people losing their SS# and having others use it to rob their bank account -- that is what happens . . .
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Ric_Richardson on December 14, 2005, 01:49:33 am
Tansi;

I know what you mean, Vance.  Since the Metis people originally came from a mixing of the races, many will choose to call themselves Metis, if they see a potential benefit for themselves.

The reality of Metis life is less glamorous, however, and in Northern Saskatchewan, the unemployment rate is in excess of 60% with many problems associated with high unemployment and poverty.

The majority of our population, in the north, is Aboriginal, Cree, Dene and Metis.

I have never heard of any "Southern Metis" but can imagine that they are another group who are trying to gain credibility by using our peoples' name.

If you look into some of the websites that I suggested, you may find out if they would qualify as part of the Metis Nation.

Ric
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 14, 2005, 05:08:35 am
I think that some of the people who use the name Metis who are not, truly think it just means "mixed." They think it is like "mestizo." But they think it sounds cooler, ya know?  I have a friend who told me she was "metis" and I said that she wasn't. I then explained what Metis means and is. She thanked me and no longer uses the term. But there are others, who thin k to make themselves look--I dunno--more important maybe? And then the ones who use it because they think there is something to be gained.

Ric, you said:
"The reality of Metis life is less glamorous, however, and in Northern Saskatchewan, the unemployment rate is in excess of 60% with many problems associated with high unemployment and poverty. "

And that is just like the wannabe Indians. They think it is  magical or something to be Indan. But the truth is like your quote above. It's not glamorous. It's just life. And they think we all run around dropping pearls of spiritual wisdom and that is false also.  And when we fail to live up to THEIR false belief, than they are angry with US.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: raven on December 14, 2005, 01:16:26 pm
Debbie
Your last statement reminded me of a story about my grandfather. Back in the early 90's my grandfather and I were at a pow wow here in the midwest, there were a large number of new agers following my grandfather around asking him questions ( looking for that wisdom). as we were sitting down trying to eat our meal, there was one lady that just wouldn't let up. She went into this long story about a dream she had ( though she said it was a vision) she asked my grandfather what it all meant. Without hesitation he asked her what she had for dinner that night. When she replied, he told her that it wasn't a vision, but gas on her stomach.  hehehe
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Guest on December 14, 2005, 04:12:13 pm
Many interesting posts here. I am still confused as to why everyone gets so upset about this so called theft. If these nuagers were really stealing, lets say Cherokee spirituality, they would be stealing a blend of a little bit of the old traditions with a whole lots of christian stuff, mainly baptist. Is that what everyone is worried about? Nuagers becoming baptist Indians.

Is there any out there that can explain in a non condescending way, what is wrong if these people waste their time and money on each other. Let the buyer beware.

Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Ric_Richardson on December 14, 2005, 06:07:16 pm
Tansi;

Please refer to "Who Are We" and your questions may be answered.

Ric
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Guest on December 14, 2005, 06:39:52 pm
You mean the Who  Are We stuff at the main page. Yes, Ric, I read that. I was not clear with my point I guess.

I hesitate around any watchdogs, whether I agree or not, left or right, etc.

I don't really care what a nuager does, is sold, falls for, beleives in, and on and on.

You think Crosslin Smith reads this forum? Worries about it? Bet he's more concerned (just my guess) about all  those christains Cherokees
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 14, 2005, 07:54:48 pm
OMG! Raven! That is funny! Reminds me of somehting. My friend sponsored a lowampi for her friend. He invited some strange people. The elder man that was doing the ceremony asked if anyone had any questions about the ceremony before we started. This one woman says "Well, I was driving around last week and a deer crossed my path. And deer is my totem animal so I was wondering what that meant." The elder looked at her and said "It means a deer ran in front of your car..."
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 14, 2005, 07:59:45 pm
So, Ganeida, if you don'ty care, why are you here. Because that is the point of this forum, to expose frauds. I consider what they do a form of racism because many of those scammed and burnt or otherwise abuse, then blame ALL Indians because someone claiming to be Indian did this to them. I have come face to face with those racists. When WE fail to meet THEIR fantasies, and worse, they are conned, then it is OUR fault some how. And believe me, thise bigots go out of their way to make life miserable for real Indians.

And you know, we aren't so different then some mainstream religions. The catholic church has gone out of it's way to denounce off shoot catholic religions. The LDS fights against some of the offshoots of their religion.  So why do you think we should just ignore frauds?
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: educatedindian on December 14, 2005, 10:04:58 pm
Dear Guest,

Sorry if this is condescending, but that' s to be expected when someone is so dense they read the Who We Are section and then fails to understand even one single point they read.

The Nuage movement is filled with racism, sexual abuse, and tells huge numbers of lies about Native people. This leaves huge numbers of people deeply scarred, bitter, angry, disillusioned, and hostile towards ACTUAL Natives.

Nuagers desecrate Native sacred sites, destroy plants used in ceremonies, and above all wind up drowning out the voices of ACTUAL Natives. We try to talk about sovereignty, diabetes, language loss, etc, and they'd rather hear about finding their totem animals and using crystals.

If you don't care about naive women getting raped and their children getting molested, or people losing huge amounts of money and time or winding up badly burned or even dead from fake versions of sweatlodges...

...or Native lifeways being threatened by this cultural and spiritual imperialism, then perhaps you should quit wasting our time so we speak to those who actually give a damn about other people.

But perhaps before you go you should explain why you aren't over at a Black forum saying "I don't give a damn about civil rights." or at a Jewish forum saying "Who cares about anti-Semism? Not me!"

Your lack of empathy or comprehension are appalling.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Guest on December 14, 2005, 11:41:29 pm
Fuck you for calling me dense Al

Al's note: Though I normally delete messages like this so as not to reward people fro being obnoxious, I decided to leave this one up. After all, it let's everyone know just how childish our "guest" is. Not to mention too cowardly to say who they are.
I should also mention that our "guest was so childish she spammed the board with obscenities with three more messages. So obviously I hit a nerve when I pointed out she's not very bright.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Ganieda on December 15, 2005, 12:43:19 am
so, debbieredbear, why the hell would I sign in as guest when I have my own membership here?  Duh?  

Maybe you need to do more thinking before mouthing off and accusing someone of stuff they had no part in.  
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 15, 2005, 04:51:28 am
If it wasn't you I apologize. However, you frequently have posted as "guest" even when you have your own membership. And you have admitted as much.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 15, 2005, 04:56:38 am
Gee guest, all you seem to be doing is making us all see what an immature child you are.  Now go outside and play.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Ganieda on December 15, 2005, 05:47:08 am
Thank you, Debbiebear.  

No, I have never posted a message here as "guest" since I became a member.  I posted as "guest" before, but not since.  So, no, I have not admitted to doing so.  
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: another guest on December 15, 2005, 11:00:45 am
Um - well to get back to that article

Think I understand most of what is being said here  - that  traditions take generations to build (why they are traditions ) but can be almost destroyed in one generation of mixing other stuff in there , so they need to be protected , and also people&#8217;s body&#8217;s , minds , hearts and souls need to be protected from people posing as spiritual leaders who are not who they say they are , and who don&#8217;t know what they pretend to know .

But , I also feel a bit confused when I read some parts of this article . I hope this dosn&#8217;t sound too stupid .

For example ;  many non native people get invited to ceremonies or cultural activities by native friends or even elders . Sometimes it would even be rude not to participate. When ceremonies end , often there is a give away of a braid of sweetgrass , and I have seen non native/ slightly native  people get given these sweetgrass braids , often by good elders.  I have heard native people talk about smudging being a ceremony , so I would guess if an elder gives a braid of sweetgrass to someone , it is OK for them to use it to smudge . ?

What gets confusing is this article makes it sound like non native/ mostly non native  people shouldn&#8217;t be having anything to do with  native religion , and when it says this , this article seems to be contradicted by the actions of a lot of seemingly good elders .

Another bigger example ; Once I heard about a non native person ( friend of a friend ) who was given a pipe by a native elder , and this person felt funny about accepting it , but it seemed rude not to. I later heard some native people say this was a good elder , who did this . So was this person wrong to accept this pipe , and if so , what should they have done ?

Is there a polite , respectful way ,  to refuse some activities , assistance , or gifts  ?    Is this the right thing to do ?

Once I went to a reserve to visit some people I knew there , and as soon as I got there, an old woman came out of her house and grabbed me by the arm and said she wanted to teach me all this native stuff . My friends got me away from her , and told me she was just a foolish old woman who was desperate for attention , and I should ignore her , but if I didn't have anyone there to rescue me , it would have been hard to know what to do . ( I can imagine PODIA&#8217;s without any known  living relatives on reserve could be really vulnerable to these sorts of experiences )

So I feel confused  , when I read that by accepting things that seemed to be freely shared , I have participated in genocide against native people .

I could see that for some people these words would hurt and seem unfair , even though there is a lot of truth in them .

What is the right thing to do , when someone who is native,  or even who seems to be a native elder , wants to share something from their culture ?

When is it OK to accept this and when is it not ?

If it isn't Ok  , how can a person side step this without being rude?

(if I want to post again ,  I will try and figure out a user name,  and register , as I can see having too many    &#8221;guests&#8221; could be a bit confusing.  )
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 15, 2005, 05:39:57 pm
another guest,

Generally, I would say that if a Native friend invited you to ceremony, you should go if you want to.  The participation that the article mainly speaks of is a bit different then one's friends saying "Hey! We're having a sweat would you like to come?" And while smudging is a ceremony, sweetgrass and sage are sold all over. In some cases, the tribes themselves do it. In fact, there is some sweetgrass sold from Canada that actually helps support and fun a treatment facility. It's a hard thing to  say, a fine line to walk. Others, I am sure will have other opinions. I spreak for no one but myself.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: educatedindian on December 15, 2005, 05:50:21 pm
Another guest: Try to ignore the "guest". We're pretty certain she'll go away once she realizes she's failed yet again to disrupt this place.

Back to your questions:

"So was this person wrong to accept this pipe , and if so , what should they have done ?"

I don't see anything wrong in accepting a pipe. What would worry me is if someone went around bragging, "I received THE sacred pipe of Tribe X! I must be special in the eyes of the tribe, their Great White Savior! All of you can now pay me for Secret Indian Teachings!"

Happens more often than not.  

"Is there a polite , respectful way ,  to refuse some activities , assistance , or gifts  ?    Is this the right thing to do ?"

No polite way that I know. Again, I think it's not the accepting gifts that is the problem. It's when outsiders read too much into that.

"I feel confused  , when I read that by accepting things that seemed to be freely shared , I have participated in genocide against native people ."

I don't think the author meant that. I think she was speaking against ceremony sellers.  

"What is the right thing to do , when someone who is native,  or even who seems to be a native elder , wants to share something from their culture ?"

I think the same thing you would in cases where they are not Native. Wonder why they are doing that, and think about whether accepting this could get you drawn into something you don't want to be a part of, or perhaps could simply be a very decent generous person.

Sometimes people have ulterior motives for "giving" or "sharing", like wanting to curry favor or show off or get attention. Natives are the same mix of good and bad as any other people.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: walking-soft on December 15, 2005, 10:19:22 pm
I found a wonderful reply to this topic on indian country spoken by an elder native, lets hope i get the site right: topic wannabee,

www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?=1073422363-30k
if this doesn't work perhaps some one can go to  www.indiancountry.com and bring the article over to this site if possible.
                                  Thanks   Joyce A.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: Ganieda on December 16, 2005, 08:13:26 am
Al, debbiebear....

Just wondering, since you both refer to "guest" as "she"....you don't still think it was me do you?  I swear I had nothing to do with those posted messages.  The only reason I noticed them is because debbiebear called me by my name.  
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: educatedindian on December 16, 2005, 03:05:51 pm
I don't think the bad "guest" is you Ganieda. It sounds very much like certain crystal skull worshippers.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: debbieredbear on December 16, 2005, 05:45:58 pm
Ganeida,
since you said it wasn't you, I am not assuming anything. And I have not refered to that "guest" as she at all. I really don't care if the immature child is a she or a he.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: walking-soft on December 16, 2005, 11:10:45 pm
I'm confused are you a he/she hmmmm.

You may think you are fooling people as to who you are but be assured we do and, felt really burnt by this site huh?? Well your dismissed now go back to your little "tribe" and be who you continue to be, a disrespected wannabe.
                                             Joyce A.
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: educatedindian on December 20, 2005, 10:04:19 pm
Just got this very nice letter from the author:

Dear Dr. Carroll and fellow New Age Fraud Fighters,
I just wanted to take moment to thank you for the very kind letter...it was nice to finally get some positive feedback, as opposed to some of the very nasty email I got shortly after this article first published. ? I have long supported tribal sovereignty issues--I have worked with Professor Andrea Smith for many years--she wrote a blistering commentary on this subject that also got her some pretty nasty mail and got her banned from speaking in government sponsored conventions. ?

As a way to support your groups efforts, may I suggest checking out the group, Indigenous Peoples Council on Biocolonialism at www.ipcb.org. ? I have supported this group for a while, and I find it puts out extremely timely and rel event analysis while at the same time actually supporting communities on a local level. ?

On a personal note, I would just like to say, I know how hard these blood sucking leeches can attack a person/group. ? It really helps make my life easier to know that there are others out there fighting along side me.

In Solidarity,
Susana Adame
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: dee on February 05, 2006, 08:48:48 pm
Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
« Reply #19 on: Dec 14th, 2005, 2:04pm »  Quote  Modify  

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Dear Guest,

Sorry if this is condescending, but that' s to be expected when someone is so dense they read the Who We Are section and then fails to understand even one single point they read.

The Nuage movement is filled with racism, sexual abuse, and tells huge numbers of lies about Native people. This leaves huge numbers of people deeply scarred, bitter, angry, disillusioned, and hostile towards ACTUAL Natives.

Nuagers desecrate Native sacred sites, destroy plants used in ceremonies, and above all wind up drowning out the voices of ACTUAL Natives. We try to talk about sovereignty, diabetes, language loss, etc, and they'd rather hear about finding their totem animals and using crystals.

If you don't care about naive women getting raped and their children getting molested, or people losing huge amounts of money and time or winding up badly burned or even dead from fake versions of sweatlodges...

...or Native lifeways being threatened by this cultural and spiritual imperialism, then perhaps you should quit wasting our time so we speak to those who actually give a damn about other people.

But perhaps before you go you should explain why you aren't over at a Black forum saying "I don't give a damn about civil rights." or at a Jewish forum saying "Who cares about anti-Semism? Not me!"

This post really helped me see clearly what is going on in some groups.
I have seen the 'racism' and 'they' are condescending towards any native people.  Sure come on in a say a 'blessing' or a 'prayer' but then sit down and be quiet.  They don't really want to listen much less hear what is really going on.

dee
Title: Re: New Age steals Native spirituality, identities
Post by: PLH on February 07, 2006, 02:06:52 am
How is it those claming to be NDN are so interested in ceremony and self serving spirituality? The things that look attractive on the surface? Romantisizing the NDN, what is that?

Never have I seen a Holy Man/Woman that will tell you he/she is. Never would I ask advice from an Elder without knowing I had worked my butt off for the answer first and to still expect that "why aren't you REALLY listening look".

NDN "Spirituality" did not and will not come without a price.....and we are NOT TALKING MONEY.