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General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Needs More Caffeine on November 21, 2006, 03:47:30 am

Title: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on November 21, 2006, 03:47:30 am
Anyone know anything about them?

I ran into a guy claiming to be their chief, and something about him just seemed off.  He was saying correct things about Cherokee ways, but inappropriately, if you know what I mean.  I don't know if he's just a big talker or a fraud, but he's wandering around my part of the woods a lot lately, so I'd appreciate any information folks have. 
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: walking-soft on November 21, 2006, 06:44:34 am
 Do You know what he calls himself??? Do you mind sharing what part of KY you are speaking of. That would be very helpful information.

                                                                    Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on November 21, 2006, 01:59:45 pm
Calls himself "Chief Manfox" and I believe is in the Henderson (Hendersonville?), KY, area.

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on November 21, 2006, 04:16:39 pm
http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/history2.htm
"A brief history of how we ended up in KY. In 1866, after the civil war, the Southern Cherokee people established a government in Webbers Falls, Oklahoma. We were half bloods and mixed blood Cherokee. Our Chief was Stand Watie. He asked the U.S. government to provide protection for the Southern Cherokee & from the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma; the full bloods. They burnt our homes and killed our people; the Union Army said that they didn't have the troops to protect us. Some of us stayed in the Webbers Falls area, while many of us moved to other states; while still keeping our government that we established. A few of these states are Missouri, Arkansas, Indiana, Illinois, Tennessee, and Kentucky. We are still Cherokee people and proud. We ask now that you recognize us as the Cherokee people that we are. We have a government here in Kentucky, and have been here since the late 1800's, but we have people all over the United States. Our people have existed since 1835 as the Treaty Party/Southern Cherokee.

The Southern Cherokee became the Lost Cherokee Community as depicted in the Kana'sta Legend of old. While many Southern Cherokees continued to live in the Canadian District, yet many other of these mixed-blood Cherokee, lived apart from their Eastern and Western Brothers in all 50 states. Our Southern Cherokee members have never relinquished or forsaken the core Cherokee citizenship or heritage. These mixed-bloods now are aggressively reviving the finer elements of their traditional culture that may have been temporarily set aside.

In 1906, thousands of these Mixed-Blood Cherokee descendants, listed in an 8 volume set of books titled "Cherokee by blood," attempted to rejoin their brothers, but the U.S.'s Miller Commission forbade inclusion for various reasons. Now most of these clearly Documented Cherokee by blood are forbidden membership within the Cherokee Nation due to "BIA Blood Percentages" originally used by the U.S. Government for racial genocide, and the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma's (CNO's) Rigid application of the Dawes (only) descendent requirements (Article 3 of the 1975 Constitution), in direct violation of the 1866 Treaty obligations to the Southern Cherokee, which recognized the Southern Cherokee as a Separate Band of the Cherokee Nation with the Right to Representation on the Cherokee National Council.

If you are a mixed-blood descendant of the Cherokee, and would like to re-associate with and learn more about your Cherokee Heritage and culture, you may do so as a member of the Southern Cherokee Nation.

Although you Must Document your lineage, the Southern Cherokee Nation does not require Dawes Roll lineage as a membership requirement. Rather, Blood line must be established through your Cherokee Lineage.  Southern Cherokee Membership cannot be purchased, and is given freely to those of documented Cherokee lineage."

Most of that is correct if extremely slanted history, but mixed in with some pretty disputed claims. None of that explains how they ended up in Kentucky. It's just the usual claim of having to hide out.

But the twist this time is that they were supposedly hiding out from the allegedly mean old fullbloods. Never mind that the Southern Cherokee were led by people who despised their Cherokee heritage and blood and worked hard to assimilate. Never mind that Watie was the initiator of violence and did most of it, and that he kept fighting long aftet the war ended just to get a promise of no retaliation from Ross's party. Never mind that the Ross party kept their promise and reintegrated many of the Southern Cherokee. Most of those who refused to rejoin the nation we know exactly what happened to them. They became culturally white and never looked back.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on November 21, 2006, 04:34:03 pm
Found this. There are two would be Southern Cherokees of Kentucky, one now based in OK. (?!)

Keep in mind the source here. We found old Weylin's alleged "band." I broke it into paragraphs instead of one long rant.

http://indianz.com/board/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=485441&TOPIC_ID=11749&FORUM_ID=5
"Originally posted by Weylin Lighteagle[/i]

Osiyo: Concerning Brent Gill and family and the REAl legal Southern Cherokee of Oklahoma. I thought this may help you all out who are trying to wade thru the bs of the Southern Cherokee of Oklahoma. Over the past couple years there has been a lot of corruption going on within the Southern Cherokee government and thousands of dollars were taken by a phoney imposter named Gary Wayne and about 6 or 7 of his cohorts.

There has in the past 14 months been a series of federal prosecutions of these people, in Federal Court in Oklahoma, Muskogee, and in South Bend Indiania. Some two months ago the Griggs family were prosecuted in South Bend and found Guilty as hell on some 74 counts of fraud, all felonies. The four of them are to be sentenced next month , and Roger Griggs is facing up to 200 years in Federal prison, his wife about 95 possible years, and two other members of their family 10 to 21 years.

Brent Gill is a white attorney with no proof of blood at all who was appointed by con man imposter now banished forever ex Chief Gary WAyne Ridge to be the Chief Justice, along with his brothers and cousins and all the Gill kin people they could muster up to keep crook Gary Ridge in power. All the crooks have been banished out of the Southern Cherokee of Oklahoma tribe, and are now being investigated and systematically prosecuted by the US Justice Dept, and con man Gary Wayne Ridge and his wife are going be arrested and charged with some 700 felonies later this year along with one Judy Gunier who had been appointed treasurer and helped scam off some 300 grand out of the tribal building funds. 

The Southern Cherokee of Oklahoma has reformed it government  this past year and has filed a letter of intent for Fed RECogniton- and their rights under some 8 provisions under the 1866 treaty with the Cherokee were deemed by a Federal Court Judge as Totally Legitmate as a seperate tribe from the now CNO or UKB, whose rights have never been abrogated, though signed and agreed to , had yet never been honored and still pending. Brent Gill is scared poopless that he and his bunch of family members may be prosecuted as well, and does not have anything to do with the Southern Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.

THough there are several groups claiming to be the Southern Cherokee Nation in different states , and several claiming to be the Southern BAnds of Cherokees, they are all bogus and not the ones on the 1866 Treaty. Gary Ridges old Southern Cherokee Nation website is still on the web showing him as chief of the SCN. because the Federal Courts have also been using it as part of an evidence trail in various court trials, and The FBI suggested that the real Southern Cherokee tribe not have it removed for now.

There have been several Federal law enforcement raids over the past recent months such as one in Louisania where Southern Cherokee Nation membership cards were being sold for 25 dollars a piece to anyone  who had the money, and the funds were then funneled back to Gary Ridge , who has been banished for months and going to be indicated later on this year. Some ten thousand id cards were confiscated and 19 grand in cash in this recent raid. Hundreds of thousands of id cards have been sold fraudulent that are completely worthless as to tribal membership legal.

I was told by a rep. of the real Southern Cherokee Nation tribe that currently there are only 150 members of their tribe , and that probably there is only about perhaps 150 more people in the US that can qualify and document their lineage to that tribe's direct blood ancestors, and that they are still cooperating and assisting the Bia, FBI, US POSTAL Inspectors, US Marshals , and Washington DC officials to bring these last 5 or 6 criminals to justice. THe real legal Southern Cherokee Tribal address is PO Box 581 Webbers Falls Oklahoma."

Meanwhile, back at the other SC of KY site, their newsletter says they are suing of the SC of KY based on OK for slander.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on November 21, 2006, 04:45:50 pm
Educated Indian,

Whew!  Thanks for all that info!  Reading about all these purported SCNs is making me dizzy.

I think the historical stuff with Watie is going to just look like an inter-tribal squabble to naive government officials in Indiana (they're trying to recreate the state Indian Affairs Commission and keep putting frauds on it--which is especially awful since there is talk of empowering the Indiana IAC to recognize tribes), so I'm still looking for something that really naive, yet politically powerful, white people can readily categorize as new age or fraudulent about this group.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on November 22, 2006, 07:47:01 am
What I remember of this group, is they were in KY. They tried to open a casino in the Southeast on the coast and were denied. Then came Webber Fall. They were going to open a casino on a riverboat on the Arkansas River. They claimed to be Federally Recognized by the Treaty of 1866, but that didn't work. They could not even put the land into trust let alone open a casino. Then came the Car Tags, and that didn't fly either. I believe they had to sell them as vanity plates.  They have applied for Federal Recognition, but that can take years. It looks like they have splintered but I think they were one group until about 6 or 7 years ago. That's about when all this started. They have always claimed to be an independent Nation. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on November 22, 2006, 02:43:04 pm
Found another group calling itself Cherokee Tribe of Kentucky.

http://www.winterstubes.com/tribalindex.html
"FROM THE CHIEF
After reading some comments in a recent e-mail I feel that it is necessary to make sure that there are no misunderstandings about the Cherokee Tribe of Kentucky.
1. We are exactly what we say we are; a Tribe of mixed blood Tsalagi
who have banded together to perpetuate the culture, history,traditions and ceremonies of the Tsalagi.
2. We are NOT federally recognized, we have not filed for, nor do we have any desire or intention to file for federal recognition. We know who we are and we do not need the federal government  to tell us who we are. We have no desire to deprive anyone of money or benefits they receive from the federal government.
3. We do not have State Recognition. However, once the criteria for State Recognition in Kentucky are established the Tribe will make the decision whether to apply or not.
Marty Martin
Principal Chief
Cherokee Tribe of Kentucky
We are mixed-blood Tsalagi whose ancestors either managed some how to escape the Removal or were able to return to their homes after the Removal. We have banded together to perpetuate the culture, history, tradition and ceremonies of the Tsalagi....
"Cherokee Tribe of Kentucky" is incorporated in Kentucky as a charitable, educational organization. We are a member of the Circle of Wisdom Unity Council of Kentucky.Our Tribal Office is located at:
5411 Laureltree Place
Louisville,Ky. 40229
You may e-mail the Chief at this address..MartySoaringEgle@aol.com
Enrollment in the "Cherokee Tribe of Kentucky" is open to anyone with Cherokee blood."

And the group simply called "Southern Cherokee" denounced the SC of KY (the first group mentioned, not this group above.)

http://southerncherokee.com/
"Groups fraudulently claiming to be the SOUTHERN CHEROKEE include, but are not limited to:

The Southern Cherokee Nation (SCN) and Various Groups
Southern Cherokee OK
Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky

These fraudulent groups continue to operate despite numerous complaints given to the United States Government from the SOUTHERN CHEROKEE Government. The SOUTHERN CHEROKEE Government considers the continued operations of these fraudulent groups as being condoned by the United States Government and is being used as a diversionary tactic to steer legitimate Cherokee away from the legitimate SOUTHERN CHEROKEE Government and to obstruct the building process of the SOUTHERN CHEROKEE."
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on November 23, 2006, 12:53:09 am
Thanks for the information.  You can almost smell the paranoia rolling off the quote from that last group you posted about!  Blegh.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on November 28, 2006, 08:51:39 pm
here is another fairly new post on the Southern Cherokee Nation. http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/oct_2006_letter_to_the_people.htm frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on November 28, 2006, 10:00:10 pm
Needs More Caf,
Have you heard of anyone named Harold Young in your neck of the woods? He insists there is a Cherokee Tribe in KY and has always been! My Great Grandfather and GGrandma always said there were bands that would come and go, she was Cherokee. They never talked of a tribe.

                                                                        Weheli
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: debbieredbear on November 28, 2006, 10:14:45 pm
There used to be a guy that posted on alt.native that was a Kentucky Cherokee. His tribe had always been there. He could name his ancestors and knew his culture, language and traditions.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on November 28, 2006, 10:18:35 pm
Needs More Caf,
Have you heard of anyone named Harold Young in your neck of the woods? He insists there is a Cherokee Tribe in KY and has always been! My Great Grandfather and GGrandma always said there were bands that would come and go, she was Cherokee. They never talked of a tribe.

                                                                        Weheli

I had heard that small groups that went through northern KY, too (not my family, but other families), and more in southern KY, although--like you said--not a tribe. Certainly Cherokees were in the area visiting other tribes and hunting.  I think the SCN that I posted about claims they were part of Stand Watie's secessionists and just stayed around after everyone else in the CNO went back to OK.

I haven't heard of Harold Young, that I know of, but names slip out of my mind faster than they used to! :-)

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on December 17, 2006, 05:19:38 pm
it seems this manfox has 2 documents on his web site one from the sen.Mcconnell and the other from govenor flector  half way stating that kentucky regonizes them
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on December 17, 2006, 07:02:18 pm
 Do you have the link to his site? I would be much interested to read it.
                                                                       Thanks/Wado  Weheli
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on December 17, 2006, 07:22:24 pm
It is
www.southerncherokeenation.net

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on December 17, 2006, 11:32:11 pm
They are tring to imply that they are state reg.. with the 2 documents they are showing even thouh the one from the senator is not all there  there link to it  says reconized by Sen.McConnell
and i really love a few of the pics they have on there too
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on December 18, 2006, 12:41:34 am
They have some kind of recognition from the State of Kentucky. It may just mean they know they are there.  I guess since the "Civil War".  There are no federally recognized Tribes. And this is the only one listed on Kentucky web site. http://www.500nations.com/Kentucky_Tribes.asp  Makes it interesting. But I am going to have to ask some people. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on December 19, 2006, 04:55:19 am
All  it really says is they are regonized for living there and not really much but at same time trying to say they are state regonized       


Now this marty martin person i havent ran across anyone haveing any thing good to say about him its either a fraud,  joke  or along them words  but usually much worse ....  marty martin   and a person by the name of tom jones have been having words wit h each other and from what i have heard anyway tom jones is as about as bad here is a little reading  for you
 
Copy of Newly Formed Criteria Committee as redone by Chair of Commission, Tom Jones.
his email. 
 
 
Pursuant to the rules of the Native American Heritage Commission, it is the responsibility of the Chair of the Commission to make appointments to the various committee positions. It has been determined to be in the best interest of the Native American Community to re-form the Recognition Committee. Therefore, effective immediately the following named individuals make up the Final Recognition Criteria Committee;

Dr. Ken Tankersly, Northern Kentucky University Professor of Anthropology

Jim Tomaw, Esquire, Legal Representative for the Native American Heritage Commission, Chair Native American Heritage Commission Recognition Committee

Honorable Reginald Meeks, Representative 42 District Commonwealth of Kentucky

Dr. Don Rankin, Professor of Native American Studies UA Birmingham, Chair of Alabama State Native American Recognition Committee

Tom Jones, Chairman Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission

To those individuals who have served on the past committees we thank you for your service to the Native American Community.

Tom Jones
Chair
Native American Heritage Commission
 
 
 
 
My Response to this action. 
I have copied and pasted for those who cannot get attachments.  I have also attched the letter below. Thanks, Bruce.
 
To: All Kentucky Native American Heritage Commissioners’, and Unity Representatives.
 
Re: Tom Jones Issued changes of the Committee responsible for Recognition Criteria of Kentucky.
 
Dt: August 25, 2006
 
Fm:  Bruce W. Brading
Chairman of the Board of Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference, Inc.
Kentucky Native American Heritage Commissioner,
Former Member of Kentucky State Recognition and Criteria Committee.
 
I am forwarding Tom Jones email to all Commissioner’s and Unity people. Most commissioners’ and many others who needed to be addressed where excluded from his email changing the Kentucky State Recognition and Criteria committee. 
 
I wish to take issue with his Changes. This letter is the best I can do for all the people of Kentucky to allow them all to understand the issue and his regards for the people.
 
It is in the best interest of All Native American Indian People not to change the Committee at this time. As this committee is functioning and ready to present the final draft for the commission’s approval.  The criteria and recognition committee has done its job and is in the process of finalizing that Five years, with the proposed criteria for approval.
 
This Committee, as it has stood before Tom Jones changes was very reflective of the Native American Indian Community as a whole and adequate for the propose of this criteria.
Ken Tankersley Representing the Piqua Shawnee,
Marty Martin Representing the Kentucky Cherokee Alliance,
Bruce Brading Representing the Unity Conference,
Reginald Meeks, House of Representative for the State.
I wish to say, there is no mention of Linda Beam, she is also as the committee as first formed several years ago. She has also been of great value to this committee for over five years.
Tom’s Letter does even attempt to address her membership in this committee.
Linda Beam, Representing Spirit of the Land, Kentucky’s oldest Incorporated Indian Organization.
 
Also, Jim Tomaw was an original member of this committee and Tom Jones named him Chair at a commission meeting. His record speaks for itself. In three years as Chair of this Committee he did not return any emails, or attend any meetings of this committee. In fact, only once in over Three years did he even attend the commission meetings in which this committee met after the commission meetings for updates.   He may be an attorney but his lack of working for the Native American Indian people if obvious. His reappointment is extremely, bad taste and a slap in the face of those who have worked for those five years. We made the meetings, and did the work. His time is over for this committee. His failure to even call one meeting or email any other members, or respond when included in emails for input, places him last on my list. In my opinion he is not necessary on this committee.
 
   I know it is in the commission meeting minutes in which Tom Jones removed out of frustration Jim Tomaw after three years from the committee and removed his as Chair of the committee. At the same commission meeting Tom Jones placed Professor Ken Tankersly on the Committee and made him the Chair of the Committee. This committee has functioned with Jim Tomaw and has finalized all gathered information and will present this version to the commission.
 
In 2005 the committee decided to Include Reginald Meeks in all Communications. For the three prior years Tom Jones had forbid any of the committee to send any information to Reginald Meeks. He was on the committee but had little or no input. The Committee with Ken Tankersly, Marty Martin, Linda Beam and Myself decided to overlook Tom Jones request and include Reginald Meeks in All communications from then on and he has responded as I knew he would. I wish to apologies personally to Reginald for my part in that game or whatever it was between Tom and Him. Tom does play many games with many people all over the state and that is one reason many have no trust in his words or actions.
 
Other issues I wish to address are listed below:
 
Marty Leonard Soaring Eagle Martin was added by words of Tom Jones to this committee in 2004, He is not a commissioner but worked hard for this committee. He has performed all his assigned duties. He has researched and downloaded the updated for several states as I was running out of time for that research. He deserves better than to be dismissed so easily by anyone including the Chair of the Commission.
 
 Dr Ken Tankersly was added to this committee in 2005, and then named as Chair of the Committee by Tom Jones at a Commission meeting. He has been invaluable to this committee and has been involved since his appointment and edited, and updated the criteria. He is also the Kentucky Liaison for the Piqua Shawnee and works diligently for his Tribe. I have no objection to his appointment or him being named as Chair of this Committee. His dedication has been invaluable to this committee. I personally believe his efforts are for the Majority of the Native American Indian People of this state.
 
My opinion is that this issue should be the only concern, for all Committee Members. To write the best criteria for the state and all Native American Indian people. To work for the majority of this state, we cannot work for just one Tribe. We are writing Criteria to effect the state from border to border with many tribal governments and bands, clans, and organization of Native American Interest.
 
The issue of adding Jim Tomaw a Piqua Shawnee back to this committee and making him Chair is addressed above and should be a Joke. The addition of Tom Jones himself as part of the committee is also laughable. He has no expertise or quality that is needed. He does not or has never actually done any work for the Native American Indian People himself and has little knowledge of this issue. His lack of Leadership as Chair of the Commission and links to all Committees of the Commission have proven his worth.
In the last five years it is fact that he lost all communications as related to him by Marty Martin, Linda Beam or myself and to me this is inexcusable. At a commission meeting in 2005 he was given the Second draft of the criteria and then called me and then emailed Marty Martin as he lost all six copies given to him. He has since found those papers and wishes now to use the work of others and place his name on that work. This, he has done before to many, and is just another issue of why I have asked for his resignation as the Chair of the Commission.
 
The issue of Don Rankin from Alabama and another Piqua Shawnee as placed on this committee is a great concern to me and should be to all Kentucky Native People.
  I ask why? Do we in Kentucky, not have enough intelligence to write are own criteria. Does this committee have to be Four Piqua Shawnee to make sure they are recognized by this state? I believe Tom Jones’s attempt is to waylay the state for the benefit of this one tribe and his own personal goals and issues are of major concern for us all. .
 
  I have worked on this criterion for five years. I have all the legislation of over Seventeen States who have State Legislated Criteria. We have downloaded the facts of Alabama’s fiasco of their first attempt at legislation, which opened Pandora’s Box, and they are still re-writings and re-writing theirs to clear up the mess created.  We are aware of Alabama and have all their efforts to read and use. Don Rankin’s presence is not needed. His words and his actions for Alabama recognition we have and can read and see for ourselves. We do not need to make those mistakes here. That is why we downloaded all acts, laws, codes, of all the states who are working on Criteria for State recognized tribes. The last thing I will say about Don Rankin is why add another Piqua Shawnee? This Committee is only five people so named by Tom Jones. The committee as now stands by his issued email statement by the Chair of the Commission Tom Jones is made up of Four Piqua Shawnee and one House of representative.
 
Something is wrong with this Committee as defined by Tom Jones. Kentucky is predominately Cherokee in Population with over 64% of the Native American Indian Descendants claiming Cherokee on the 2000 Census. The 2000 Census also includes the tribes by numbers for anyone to see and understand. By the census we have Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Miami, Creek being the largest tribes. Then there are some five other Tribes before you fall down to the Shawnee. 2000 census records all Shawnee at only 271. There are also two other Shawnee Tribes with members in Kentucky, which outnumber the Piqua Shawnee. The Piqua Shawnee have less then 50 Kentucky Members. Who would believe that Four Piqua Shawnee are needed on a committee for Kentucky State recognition and criteria? They are lucky to have the one Ken Tankersly and that is because so many in this state believe he is a good man and except him for his knowledge and fortitude to do the right thing for the State and all Native People.
 

As I have seen over the years of research and downloading all other States Criteria as Written in legislation the least amount used as one Criteria is 300 Members in that state. It does not matter how many you may have elsewhere. This is one major issue. If you allow small numbers to be recognized then you open Pandora’s Box. Can you recognize twenty members of one family as a Tribe?  We need to finish the Kentucky Criteria with the understanding from all gathered information. Using that information to avoid the problems and using that information to find these other states successes. That, is what this committee has been doing? We have over 4,000 legislative papers from some 33 States in one box at our disposal to compare and take into consideration. That is over 5 years of research for myself and over two years of research for Marty Martin and the Cherokee Alliance representative. I believe we have done over 90% of the research and 70% of the written criteria for this committee. Now, Tom Jones wishes to remove both the Unity and Cherokee alliance representatives and finalize his version of the criteria with only Piqua Shawnee. I believe the Piqua Shawnee are eligible for recognition in all criteria, as it should be written with one exception. They need to add to their membership and find the Shawnee of this state and enroll them for their Tribe to qualify. Their physical numbers make them the smallest Tribe in the State. They are still years away from qualifying for any recognition due to lack of membership in Kentucky.
 
My Opinion on this issue and the changes instituted by Tom Jones chair of the Commission are an easy one. I do not believe his actions, words, or any other items of agenda he wants, are in the best interest of this State. His agenda is his goals are personal and for one Tribe. We need a Chair of the Commission who believes in equality for all tribes, and whose goals and attitude are to help all the people of this State.
Again I ask for Tom Jones to resign as Chair of the Commission. I pray for him each night as I realize he was not always this way, and has somehow left the path for the people.
 
To all this message is a warning. We cannot sit this one out.
Unity and Commissioner’s need to respond to this issue
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on December 19, 2006, 04:58:52 am
Here is some more reading about the same BS
 
I have copied and pasted into this email the letter I sent to Governor..
Thanks, Bruce.
 
PS. also attached is copy of letter..
 
TO:  Governor Ernie Fletcher
 
FM:  Bruce W. Brading 
Chairman of Board Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference, Inc. & Bingo Treasurer
Kentucky Native American Heritage Commissioner
Kentucky Center for Native American Arts & Culture, Inc. Board & Treasurer
American Indian Heritage Museum, Inc. Board & Treasurer, & Bingo Treasurer
CEO/Founder of American Indian Register of Kentucky (Committee of Unity)
Kentucky Original People Chair (Committee of Unity)
Child Welfare Chair (Committee of Unity)
Rural Health of Kentucky Chair (Committee of Unity)
Legal and Legislative Member (Committee of Commission)
Recognition and Criteria Member (Committee of Unity) and Committee of Commission
Research, Education and Development member (Committee of Unity)
Spirit of the Land, Inc. Board Member (Kentucky’s Oldest Native Organization)
Red Crow Indian Council, Inc. President (Kentucky’s Second Oldest Native Organization)
Ohio Valley Native American Warriors and Veterans Society, Inc. Member
Ohio River Native American Inter-tribal Council, Inc.
 
RE: Resignation of Tom Jones Chair of the Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission
DT: August 2, 2006
 

I have asked for the Chair of the Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission to resign.  The reasons are discussed below in this letter.
 
I am still asking for his resignation and will again ask for that resignation at all Commission meetings in which I am allowed to attend. I also issued a Vote of No confidence be placed in the next commission meetings agenda and will continue to issue that at each commission meeting in the future.
 
I have been an active Native American Indian Person of Decent for over 54 years in Kentucky.
Seeking first office as early as 1974. I have joined in almost every effort on behalf of the Native American Indian people of Kentucky. My Life has been dedicated to those Issues. The Native American Indian people of this state are still waiting for time and the history of this state to be rewritten. We need for this state to catch up to us, and give us the truth of our existence. My people have always known of their Indian Heritage and we have lived in this State before the introduction of Europeans and the Laws we now live by in this Commonwealth.
 
I am asking that you Governor Ernie Fletcher please read what I have to say.
 
Almost all Issues of the Native American Indians of this state have fallen to the Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference, Inc. I have been elected seven years running as Chairman of the Board of the Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference. My life as Chairman of the Board of this Organization is a large part of my path and dedication for those I feel are my family.  This statement is not an easy one, but true, I have dedicated my life to work for the people.  Not one People, not one Tribe, not one section, and not one region, but the entire Native American Indian community in the Commonwealth. That does also include Federally recognized, State recognized, and all those who are descendants of the Original people of this Commonwealth. In he Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference, we have over the last 9 years worked and talked with each other and have a better understanding of all concerns over the entire state of Kentucky.
 
I work for all the Organizations and Committees I function on, whether they are as a member of the Commission or the Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference.  I wish you to know that the Tribes, Organizations, Groups, and Individuals of the Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference do represent over 85% of the Native People of Kentucky and our goals have always been for Native American Indian people as a whole in one community of Kentucky.
 
I do now, and still will continue to work in all areas of Native American Indian concerns no matter what happens here or with the issue of the Commission.
 
I work for Recognition of Native American Indian Peoples; I work for Grave Desecration, Health and Welfare, Education, Child Welfare and Housing, all on behalf of the entire community of Kentucky. I also have and will continue to work with the Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission as I see this as a major effort for the future of Kentucky. But, I do need you to understand some of the issues taking place in this state at this time. I also need you to know why I ask for the removal of the Chair of the Commission.
 
In Kentucky, Unity has taken on almost all issues for the Native American Community.
The Chair of the Native American Heritage Commission at many meetings spoke of support for those issues. He spoke of, spoke of, and each time ended up doing nothing.
Unity Committee’s have functioned almost entirely alone for several years. We have received no issued statements or support from the Commission. 
 
Rural health Committee of Unity has made all meetings with Rural Health of Kentucky, and ensured Native American Indian descendants as part of the Federal Dollars designated for Minorities in Kentucky.
That money came here as a federal Grant and was only being used for African America’s, Spanish, and Asian. The Unity conference responded with a committee and meetings to ensure our people would be helped with the Money. The Commission did not help, did not participate, and even voted not to join Unity in these efforts. Unity Committee Members have for three years been the only ones to attend all meetings and subsequent dealings with those of authority in the State for Rural health.
 
Child Welfare Committee of Unity has been in over Eleven Court Cases in four years. We have attended five meetings in Frankfort and became part of the stakeholders of Kentucky a grass roots to child Services. We have been all over the state of Kentucky. Testifying on behalf of Indian Children and their rights as Indian Children. We have worked for Native American Indian religious rights as well. For Native American Indian Children’s rights for proper Foster care homes. We have instituted through the Committee of Unity the Families Program to enroll and have Native Families place them on a list with the state. To take the classes and become Foster Homes, and Adoption Homes because we needed to help the state comply with the Federal Child Welfare Indian Act.  Again the Commission was asked to join this Committee, even asked to send a representative to Courts. Asked by A Judge who quoted “Were is the Commission in all of these cases????. But, Again the commission being made aware rejected any participation and made its usual statement. We have no authority; to entire such cases, and could or would not send anyone.
 
Kentucky Original People Committee of Unity has operated since 1974 under first Spirit of the Land, then Coalition of Original People (A joint committee of OHIO, INDIANA, and KENTUCKY) lasting to 1999, then moved as a Committee of Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference in 2000 as Kentucky Original People.
This Committee has handled over 58 cases of grave desecration and reburial in the State of Kentucky. Again the Commission was asked to respond with help and backing. That help was refused until 2005 at a commission meeting in which Tom Jones stated and took a vote to place a commissioner on the KOP Committee of Unity to assist us in our efforts. To this day August 2, 2006, this has not happened.
No other Commissioner other than myself functions on behalf of the state on those issues. Kentucky Original People as a committee of Unity has for all these years handled all grave issues. I must clarify one item of this KOP Committee. We do not handle those issues applied to NAGPRA laws.  Any NAGPRA claims by Federal tribes and the KOP Committee of Unity steps aside unless asked to participate by Tribal Governments. We have been asked five times to help, and in those cases we worked with the Tribes to ensure proper care and reburial of the remains. 
 
As a Commissioner of Kentucky I felt totally discounted when informed that the commission was not seeking any legislation at all in 2005. I issued several statements about this and was informed the Chair of the Commission had made this decision. There was no discussion or asked for input from anyone else. There was never any discussion in the commission. Unity discussed this and voted that any and all legislation that we had already prepared by reintroduced and ran again. I did respond to the Chair of the Commission my opinion that any lying down for even one-year in which nothing was done was bad and we needed to continue the other two house bills that were already presented in previous years.
 
To me a whole year wasted was extremely bad for all. After much debate and emails with Reginald Meeks a Commissioner and House of Representative of Kentucky the Grave Desecration Bill was re-introduced in 2005 but again failed by five votes. But, I felt it was necessary for the Native American Community to be there and show we are still working for the people. Most Native American people of this state are Democrat or Republican, but when the issues of this community come to bear we are Native American Indian first, political choice second. We worked with Tom Jones and the Unity Conference voted to vote republican when you were elected. Tom Jones made statements and promises to this community on your behalf that you would work for us and assists us to solve some the issued we have in the State. We filled our commitment to you with our Votes.  Tom Jones did not fulfill his commitment to us by his words, by his actions. He has done nothing he promised. I have minutes of those Unity Meetings and his words as spoken to the community. He has not fulfilled anything stated.
 
As a Commissioner appointed for a four-year tern by Governor Paul Patton I have been informed that I am still a commissioner until my term runs out. I may not be re-appointed by you but I will continue to serve until I am removed or my term expires. As a commissioner I am still in favor of the Commission, and hope to keep the Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference behind the Commission one hundred percent.
I feel the Commission needs the support of the community it represents.
 
I do feel in my opinion that Unity is more reflective of the Native People of this state as those representatives are elected by their Organizations, Groups, Non-profits, and Tribes with a vote on the Board of the Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference, Inc. Every Voting Board Member of Unity Conference does reflect the views of some portion of the Native American Indian population. I do not feel that many Commissioners can issue such a statement as their appointments are solely at the discretion of one of two people giving advice to the Governor for those Appointments. They are not elected or given the right to represent by any Tribe, Organization or populace of Native people. I am asking for you to consider this as a change to the Commission. The Commission does need to be more reflective of the people of Kentucky. You have the authority to change this by asking for nominations from Unity, and choosing the Commissioners as they represent the people of Kentucky.
 
I am not satisfied with the direction or lack there of, by the Chair of the Commission. The Commission has set idle while the Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference and its committees have taken on all the responsibility of the Indian People of the State. Unity and its committee have taken on each issue and responded on behalf of the people for well over Ten Years that Tom Jones was at first Vice-Chair and Now Chair of the Commission. He states he is active for the people but those words have never come to anything substantial on behalf of the people. He has talked, and talked, but done nothing. This is wrong. I have often asked why the Commission has not worked to amend its Legislation to include the authority to represent in all issues for the Native American Indian community of Kentucky.
 
I am the founder and Chair of American Indian Register of Kentucky (A committee of Unity). This committee took over a database created by me in 1978 and continuing today. Houses some 495,000 Indian records from over 37 States. It is also a genealogically connects some 10,765 Individuals in the Sate of Kentucky into over 743 Families interrelated by Blood and Native Heritage.  The American Indian register also has since 1980 joined the State and Federal Census Bureaus working on behalf of those people to ensure they know their rights in recording themselves on the Census as Natives American Indian people of Kentucky. I take pride in the facts that in each of those three census years. 1980, 1990, and 2000, our Native American Indian Population has doubled each ten-year period, rising to over 30,000 in the 2000 Census. This committee is responsible to get the facts to native descendants of their Rights on the Census and how to correct their status and be counted. We have, we did, and do, and will, and again in 2010 show we are still here in the state and growing. AIR of Kentucky will someday enroll or have genealogical data on over 70% of the Sate and all its families of Native Origin. It is one of our Goals of Unity find a way to recognize our people.
 
Unity is still committed to the Recognition of all tribes, and People of Native Decent in Kentucky. I sit on both the Unity Conference Committee and the Commission Committee for this issue. I have spoken with several Commissioners and related the wishes of Unity and we still wish to work with the commission for that day of Criteria and Recognition. This is one of our major goals for 2007. We need the Commission to also work in some direction for the people.  As a chair of the research, education and development committee I have placed several hundred hours on legislative research to help the commission and unity for all issues. Marty Martin the president of the Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference has also worked tremendously hard for the Commission recognition Committee and he is not a commissioner. Unity Committees have done again over 90% of all research for several issues of what the Commission needed for House Bills.
 
All the above Committees and issues are still today handled by Unity alone, and have been for years. While the Commission talks, and talks, and talks and still talks some more, never ending talk.  The only Bill passed by legislation was to create the commission and make it a permanent part of Kentucky government. But, even this Bill was pushed and helped by Unity. We sent emails and letters, and phone calls, some several thousand, of our representative in the House and Senate. Each Unity member made those contacts for this bill to any and all in Frankfort in a five-day period before the vote on this Bill.
 
I have been elected Chairman of the Board for Seven Consecutive years of the Circle of Wisdom Unity Conference. I have only served as a Commissioner for the last three. I worked with the commission as of 1999 on two committees at the request of Tom Jones. My efforts even in the commission have come to over 8 years of my life.  I am asking for the Commission to stand for what it is or should be to join the people of Kentucky and to work for all issues on behalf of the Native American Indian community as a whole. It is not right to sit idle will others work. The issue for the Native American Indian Community should reflect in Legislatively passed laws and is gains for the State from Border to Border. I will remain to my path and dedication to the people of Kentucky.
 
Thank you,
 
____________________________________
Bruce W. Brading
To all that I know here, and elsewhere on the Native American Indian Path, 
May the Creator bless all.
Bruce W. Brading
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on December 19, 2006, 05:01:13 am
 
Dear Brothers & Sisters of Unity,
 
                I am writing this to appeal to all COWUC Organizations and their members. Some of us have done all that we can do to have Tom Jones removed from of the Native American Heritage Commission, or at the least, removed as Chair. It is time for all of Unity to act, we need for every member to write a letter, or email, to the Governor, their State Senator & State Representative, and the Secretary of the Commerce Cabinet, TODAY! Folks if we let Tom Jones get away with it a large majority of the Native Americans in Kentucky can kiss any hopes of State Recognition goodby. So act today, let them know that Tom Jones not only is not acting in what is in the best interest of the Native Americans in Kentucky, he has no idea what would be for our best interest. PLEASE ACT TODAY!!
 
Marty Martin
President, COWUC




and i have run across more where  tom is asking for marty martin to leave  but cant find
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on December 19, 2006, 05:18:20 am
from what little i have heard it is more of a power struggle between the 2 than any thing
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on December 20, 2006, 09:31:35 pm
Okay, that's sorta of what I thought. Recognition for existing. I know they have said in the past that they had neither Federal or State recognization. I didn't think Kentucky had State Recognition. It would be a shame as some of the groups there are on a parallel to the ones here. Hopefully one has vanished. Thanks for the information. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Hennie on February 25, 2007, 03:14:27 am
I've heard so many groups saying they are the REAL Southern Cherokee...from Alabama, from Kentucky, from North Carolina,from South Carolina, from Georgia, from Oklahoma, from Louisiana, from Texas, from Florida, California, (heck, let's include 'em all)  if I'm wrong here, please say so, but I'm not sure anything I'm hearing is correct.  It's one thing to want to build a Nation for the good of all, and another to turn being Indian or not into a three ring circus.  There are those who say Chief Ridge is a good guy and is still chief and his faction are the good guys.  There are those who say he is under Federal investigation and was thrown out on his butt and everyone involved is evil.  Then there are some who want to profit from all this in one way or another, and there are power mongers also in it for a piece of the pie.  Everyone seems to be pointing a finger at everyone else.  I have to wonder what the real reasons are, and why it is all being hidden.  If everything is legit, the rest of the world should be hearing about their fight for justice and recognition, etc. etc. and wouldn't they be trying to get public sentiment on their side?  I am asking because I know some people who are willing to do just about anything in order to "prove" they are Indian, and really want to believe they can be part of a tribe and all it costs is $75 for court costs.  Are they being told the truth?  Can those whose families assimilated re-become Cherokee?  I know some people are going to get angry about this, but I just want the truth here.
I've heard two sides of the argument and there are positive points on each side, but that still doesn't convince me that positive things are being done to actually help people.  I think it's great that people want to honor their heritage, I want to honor mine, and learn about it.  But when money is involved, I don't think it can be good for anyone regardless.  Instead of hiding, and fighting each other, one would think they would all try to work together to the benefit of all.  So, will the real Southern Cherokee please stand up???
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on February 25, 2007, 03:59:29 am
There is no real Southern Cherokee Tribe or Nation that is federally recognized.            There is a lot on this forum concerning them. http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=10110 (CNO Forms Task Force to deal with phoney "Cherokee Tribes".  Also, http://www.cherokee.org/home.aspx?section=Story&ID=YMhlqG5YSQs=   You can also check more by entering Southern Cherokee Nation in search.  Weheli has followed this group, she may have more information. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on February 25, 2007, 05:59:56 am
Here are a couple links on this forum that may help you, also if you read the article "fake Indian Tribes" under the heading excetera you will know how to tell the difference between real and fake.

Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?

Yet More Groups Claiming to Be Cherokee Tribes
                                                                  Weheli
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Sun on March 07, 2007, 04:58:49 pm
The Southern Cherokee Nation in Kentucky are a legitimate tribe.  I am a member of that tribe and thier webmaster.  We do have state recognition and have filed for federal recognition.  We are not affiliated with any other group in the United States calling themselves Southern Cherokee.  We are always updating our website, so check it often. 
http://www.southerncherokeenation.net (http://www.southerncherokeenation.net)
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 08, 2007, 03:34:17 pm
The letter from fletcher only states that you are reconized for beign here
Mitch McConnell well were is the rest of the letter to read it all some of it is  cut off
I have contacted fletcher  and they had no clue of you beign STATE reconized and would have to do some checking and get back with me.........
So where is the proof you are state reconized
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Sun on March 08, 2007, 04:25:42 pm
Lost Cherokee, Thank you for responding to my post.  When we received the document, we also called Gov. Fltechers office.  We asked them if this document was state recognition and they said yes.  I cannot remember the persons name that was spoken to.  If I can find out I will post it here.  Also John Young Brown recognized us in the late 1800's.  That document is on our website and in the state archives in Frankfort.

Thanks again for the reply.

Sun
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on March 08, 2007, 07:57:12 pm
Sun, I hope you don't mind but I'd like to ask you more about your group and the other groups calling themselves S Cherokee Nation of KY.

Could you tell us how many members you have? Also your side of the dispute between your group and the others. If you want to speak solely for yourself and not for the SCNofKY, we'll keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 10, 2007, 01:51:46 am
well if you was reconozed in the 1800's then how come kentucky has never had you as a listed state tribe and why would you have fletcher reconize you again he does good to remember that he is govenor.

and again what about the letter from mcconell where is the rest of it
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 24, 2007, 03:15:23 pm
Reply to Lost Cherokee:

The Governor of Kentucky does not need your approval to recognize Indian Tribes. The Governor of Kentucky is the duly elected chief executive of Kentucky. Does Governor John Y. Brown also need to remember who he is.......he recognized the Southern Cherokee nation of Kentucky on December 26th, 1893! The incumbent Governor Ernie Fletcher upheld the late John Y. Brown's recognition within the main body of a Proclamation issued to the Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky on November 20th 2006. And by the way, why do you think the good Kentucky Governor issued a proclamation to the Southern Cherokee Nation during Native American Month?  Think!
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on March 24, 2007, 04:14:12 pm
BH, basically you avoided answering any question at all, preferring instead a show of being offended.

State "recognition" is often vague, often worthless, and sometimes dangerous because it unwittingly helps groups that are frauds. The constitutional authority to recognize tribes is strictly federal. States usually have no standards, and what would be tribes show off as "recognition" are usually vague thanks to would be tribes for being a heritage group, or even for contributing to tourism.

I'm still waiting for Sun to answer. Are the two of you both members of the SCNKY?
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 24, 2007, 10:14:40 pm
We are “Original Principle People??? and we should not have to work to earn the recognition we are already deserving of. Our birthright as Native Americans has always been one of sovereignty and freedom. I think many of us get a certain feeling of validation as Native Americans when we are recognized by a legislative jurisdiction. It is an old cliché but being Native American really is a matter of the heart. The problem is that some of us are living in poverty and having a Native American heart is not going to get the medical bills paid or even put one of our children through medical school. Recognition from the Executive branch is much like having a Native American heart in that it makes one feel good, but it still does not get our Elders in to see the doctor. Executive recognition is also cost effective for the host government and provides good public relations for politicians, but does little in the way of real help for my people. However, we as Southern Cherokee are thankful for every crumb of bread tossed our way; because we are that much closer to getting the help we so desperately need for the health and welfare of our Elders and children.  We as the Southern Cherokee Nation are not trying to moor a paddle boat on the banks of the Ohio River so that we can conduct illegal gaming, or even open a casino. We are spiritual Native American people and we are true of heart. Some folks appear to be native, but their hearts have been hardened much like the white man.

Buffaloheart
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 24, 2007, 11:16:56 pm
Buffaloheart,
 
You bring up some good points and a few different but interesting points,
I am not questioning who you are or what you stand for,BUT I AM questioning you saying you are state recognized, The paper work in question says you are recognized as beign in the state of ky.And the other letter NOT ALL OF IT IS THERE.And i have contacted Mr. flecthers office and there reply was...............


      Thank you for contacting Governor Fletcher's office regarding your concerns about a group calling themselves "The Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky." We appereciate your concerns and you taking the time to contact our office with this issue.


      In order to give this matter the attention it deserves,I have forwarded your concerns to the appropiate staff for review and response. In the meantime, if you have additional questions,please contact me


    And  that was on Jan. 26 2007,
and i do have and remember the persons name and number, and so far  it is still beign checked.

Now if you was State Recognized they would have actual records and would remember it and know what i was talking about,But then again this is Kentucky and Fletcher we are talking about too. 
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 24, 2007, 11:23:43 pm
Almost forgot have contacted Mitch McConnells office and a few other offices  and its either dont have a clue what im talking about or no reply at all..............
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 25, 2007, 12:31:04 am
I think the Southern Cherokee Nation documents speak for themselves:

http//www.southerncherokeenation.net/histdoc.htm

http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/NA%20Heritage%20Commission.htm

Buffaloheart
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 25, 2007, 12:36:40 am
One of my links did not take here is the other. And so that all will know Michael "Manfox" Buley is our Chief. he is the Vice-Chair of the Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission. I would call him as well.

 http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/histdoc.htm

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on March 25, 2007, 01:15:07 am
being Cherokee I can only speak of Cherokee. I did find this article perhaps it will shed some light.

Resolution No. 14-00 was adopted by the Cherokee National Council in 2000 to establish policy in response to the numerous individuals and entities claiming to be a new Cherokee tribe, clan or association. This resolution reads: “BE IT RESOLVED BY THE CHEROKEE NATION, that as a matter of policy the Cherokee Nation shall not endorse, acquiesce or support for federal or state recognition any other group, association or club which identify themselves as a separate tribal identity for purpose of having a government to government relationship because of Cherokee ancestry.???

Leon Jones, Principal Chief and Dan McCoy, Tribal Council Chairman, Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians testified in front of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs hearing on S. 611 in 2000. You can read the transcripts.

Excerpts:
“However, there are also many groups seeking recognition that by even the most liberal standards absolutely do not qualify as historic Indian tribes. The federal government is tasked with the difficult job of distinguishing between the "wannabes" and the legitimate groups. This is particularly problematic for the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, as a large number of the petitioning groups use the word "Cherokee" in their name. Below is the list of groups that have actually petitioned the Bureau of Indian Affairs for Federal Tribal Recognition who either use the word "Cherokee" in their name or who claim to be Cherokees ….???

“In my state of North Carolina we have well known groups seeking recognition that can not speak a single word of their claimed Indian language, that can not repeat to you a creation legend that is unique to their people, that have no dance, or song, or burial practice that is unique to their claimed tribe. Even if you found a one hundred year old member of their group, he or she could not speak to you in that tribe's language because it never existed. What is it that we are preserving in this case? What would this "tribe" do that would be unique or different from any small town government? These are not insignificant questions.???

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know what you have heard about Kentucky, that there were no Indians there. That is a lie. The Cherokees lived there their "Capitol" was Burnside, KY. Most lived below the Cumberland River. Shawnee owned most of the are above the Cunberland. A white man, named Filson, was a land speculator, and in order to sell more land in KY he wrote a book, which he sent to europe to entice more whites to KY to buy land. In his book he said that there were NO Indians in KY, that it was owned by an ancient white race, and the Indians stayed away from KY. Well, of all thing Filson was killed in KY, by of all people, the Indians that were not there. I am from Lawrence county where there is a small town called Cherokee. My folks came from what is now Perry County, but was then, 1887, it was Clay County. The village my Grandfather wasd born in was Telequah, Ky, Now it is Viper.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------I was born in the Cherokee Nation, in Kentucky, at bleast it was in the 1600 and 1700's. That doesn't make me a Cherokee. I am 3/16 Cherokee by blood, I would not be a member of a Federally recognized tribe, if I could. Reason: God has blessed me and my family. We have everything that we need. I have grown up in the white mans world, and have lived, and been accepted as such. I would not accept federal benifits under any circumstances. I don't deserve it. I have had many blessing that recognized Tribal members have not had and, never will have. I have had good jobs, owned several homes. bought many new cars, and many more things than I can name. I just want to be close to , and help my Native Brothers and Sisters. God Bless them all. I have heard that the CNO is great at accepting those who are willing to come and fellowship with them as long as no strings are attached, and as long as you don't ask to be enrolled. That's enough.  So there is/was a Cherokee Nation in Ky????
Wado, Harold

I have also emailed several people as to these posts.
                                                                 Weheli





     

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on March 25, 2007, 01:52:12 pm
BH,
I'm not questioning whether you're NDN or not, and yes, federal recognition has little to do with that. About half of all NDNs are not enrolled. If you'd read our Intro, Who We Are, you'd see that we don't particularly care about cards or CDIB. Many of us aren't federally enrolled, including me.

But if a group is neither federally recognized nor recognized by the tribes who are, it usually is not a tribe. It's usually a heritage group or social club. Sometimes it's what might be called "a family reunion deciding it's a tribe". If it were to continue to stay together several more generations AND be recognized by the culturally closest recognized tribe, then in my view it would actually be a tribe.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: BlueWolf on March 25, 2007, 06:59:09 pm
BH,
I'm not questioning whether you're NDN or not, and yes, federal recognition has little to do with that. About half of all NDNs are not enrolled. If you'd read our Intro, Who We Are, you'd see that we don't particularly care about cards or CDIB. Many of us aren't federally enrolled, including me.

 I figured you would have atleast been a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and thus have some backing to most of what you post.

 I'm really confused about what this site is really doing.  From the looks to what I have read...it seems to be causing a division between cherokee, whether fullblood or mixed.  This is not the way of the Great Spirit.  Sure, there are many, many Cherokee brothers and sisters who are not members of the Federal Tribes, but that certainly doesn't make them any less Cherokee than you or I. 

  If a group springs up, so what?  As long as they don't do anything illegal, who cares?  No I've seen some good, strong evidence of so-called Cherokee tribes basicall gone defunct.  Thank you for allowing us to read about that. 
Blue Wolf

[Childish name calling edited out.]
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 27, 2007, 12:50:01 am
Many people have asked for our history.  This is now it was told to my parents William & Ethel Buley, by my grandmother Josephine Martin.

 
 
"After the Civil War General Stand Watie signed a Cease Fire Treaty with the U.S. Army, that is why we never surrendered our flag, or our arms.  They agreed to protect us in this Treaty.  Which they did not do, we were forced out of Oklahoma by the Pinn Cherokee.  They were burning our homes and killing our People.  The word went out through James Samuel Martin (Great Grandfather of Chief Manfox), that a delegation of the Southern Cherokee Nation were going to meet at Fort Smith Arkansas, asking the army to honor the treaty to protect us from the Pinns.  They informed our people they did not have the troops to do that, and for us to see to yourselves.
 
A month later 75 wagons left Fort Smith, some stayed in Arkansas, some went to Missouri, some went to Tennesse and the remainder came to Kentucky...Carrying our flag, seal and our Constitution.  It was fall of 1871, General Watie had died.  We arrived in Kentucky early winter.  Some of our family had hid out in caves and such and had remained in Kentucky after the removal.  On our return from Oklahoma, we were welcomed home by our cousins (family) that had remained here.
 

We have sit here out of everyones way, almost secretively, for over a hundred years.  We would still be unknown, if it weren't for all these other groups calling themselves Southern Cherokee.  And these are the facts, backed up by our documents."
 

Oral tribal History by Principle Chief Manfox Buley

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on March 27, 2007, 03:00:23 am
BH,
I heard that a "Cherokee tribe" I believe it is Southern Cherokee nation of Ky has also found some very old sacred scripts. Would that be this tribe or another. if it is your "tribe" can you give me some information as to these scripts?
                                                                               Wado Weheli
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 27, 2007, 03:24:12 am

  If a group springs up, so what?  As long as they don't do anything illegal, who cares?  No I've seen some good, strong evidence of so-called Cherokee tribes basicall gone defunct.  Thank you for allowing us to read about that. 
Blue Wolf

[Childish name calling edited out.]

My two cents...a group springing up is fine.  A "Cherokee descendants club" is fine.  A "Cherokee culture club" is fine.  A group of people who acknowledge that all Cherokees are cute, witty, and have great taste in shoes is fine.  Etc.

BUT a group calling itself a "tribe" is making a legal claim.  A tribe has a governmental status, a particular legal status in relationship to the federal U.S. government.  This is a claim to an inherent sovereign governmental and legal status predating the U.S.  When a tribe which has that inherent sovereignty, and has never deliberately abandoned it, is wrongly denied recognition by the U.S. government, it's a tragedy.  Groups that falsely claim this sovereignty, when their ancestors willfully abandoned their nation, or when they never had such sovereignty to begin with, do harm to groups that deserve to be recognized.  They make it harder for groups that do have inherent sovereignty to be taken seriously by the general public.  People who falsely claim to have tribal status in terms of inherent sovereignty are making a fraudulent LEGAL claim about themselves.  They are inherently illegal.  They harm unrecognized tribes who do possess and nurture their inherent sovereignty.

It's not a matter of culture alone.  It's not a matter of race at all (except insofar as Indian governments are legally treated as having a more limited sovereignty than white ones).

It's a matter of mocking government structures and misleading people.  For instance, if I set up something I called the North Florida Traffic Court and, with a bunch of my extended family, adjudicated traffic cases, it would be wrong.  I would be pretending to have a governmental status I don't have.  Likewise, one who claims to be a tribal office is claiming a governmental status and position.

I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.  This is just my understanding of the difference between a tribe and some other kind of cultural group.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 27, 2007, 03:52:48 am
BH,
I heard that a "Cherokee tribe" I believe it is Southern Cherokee nation of Ky has also found some very old sacred scripts. Would that be this tribe or another. if it is your "tribe" can you give me some information as to these scripts?
                                                                               Wado Weheli

Oginali,

I have heard from one of the Elders that Chief Manfox has some very old historical documents and that is all I know on this subject.

Yanisa
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 27, 2007, 03:55:05 am
Buffaloheart,

Historical documents are one thing but documents on the internet is another you can make anything up you want to one the internet.Even though the documents are fron the Great Erine Flecthers office,that still doesnt say much when its on the internet.Incase you are wondering BH i do live in ky not from here ,but i do live in ky and have for some time now,And i do not put much faith in anything flechter does or say's....

Vice-Chair of the Native American Heritage Commission,
The commission wasnt created untill 1996,and was just created to make NDN's in ky happy or should i say
to make the great state of kentucky feel better. As far as beign appointed  by definition only all you had to do was send in a resume of sorts explain how you would help the commission and all that ,if you was the only one from the area it was youres.


BW you said


  If a group springs up, so what?  As long as they don't do anything illegal, who cares?
I care and hopefully you do and if you you should. Thinking like that is why there is so many problems with our culture and everybody elses culture. even the ones that know there culture and history you have to keep in check from time to time .to make sure When you have tribes that pop up  you really have to watch and learn what is going on for most for there info. is from the internetor from unconfirmed oral history..



weheli please post links
i would like see what else harold has posted
kentucky is good for towns and roads having 3 and 4 names im not saying harold doesnt know his history about viper but its the first i have heard of it and family that i have living in that area for many many years and its the fisrt they heard or it.
much more to say but i will save for another time


lost cherokee
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 27, 2007, 04:00:21 am
BH,
I'm not questioning whether you're NDN or not, and yes, federal recognition has little to do with that.

Buffalo writes:

I never insinuated that this discussion was about me, or implied that the SCN was Federally recognized.   
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 27, 2007, 04:27:21 am
Buffaloheart,
Historical documents are one thing but documents on the internet is another you can make anything up you want to one the internet.Even though the documents are fron the Great Erine Flecthers office,that still doesnt say much when its on the internet.Incase you are wondering BH i do live in ky not from here ,but i do live in ky and have for some time now,And i do not put much faith in anything flechter does or say's....

Vice-Chair of the Native American Heritage Commission,
The commission wasnt created untill 1996,and was just created to make NDN's in ky happy or should i say
to make the great state of kentucky feel better. As far as beign appointed  by definition only all you had to do was send in a resume of sorts explain how you would help the commission and all that ,if you was the only one from the area it was youres.


BH  you said


  If a group springs up, so what?  As long as they don't do anything illegal, who cares?
I care and hopefully you do and if you you should. Thinking like that is why there is so many problems with our culture and everybody elses culture. even the ones that know there culture and history you have to keep in check from time to time .to make sure When you have tribes that pop up  you really have to watch and learn what is going on for most for there info. is from the internetor from unconfirmed oral history..

Buffalo Heart writes:

I did not say these things. You have your wires crossed with someone else that posted. 

However, The late Governor John Y. Brown's letter of 1893 recognizing the Southern Cherokee Nation can be found in the state archives.  Additionally, Kentucky State Representative Meeks and Dr. Tankersly, Piqua Shawnee and  professor of Native American Studies for Northern Kentucky University, are also members of the Commision (KNAHC). They were not appointed or selected based on "Hey you criteria". Also a legislative task force has recently been formed to study Native American issues within the State of Kentucky. The KNAHC will have two members on the the task force.   
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 27, 2007, 04:38:33 am
sorry about that buffaloheart ment to say bw instaed of bh on the second part of the letter
 and the first of the leeter was for you . i was not saying it was from you.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 27, 2007, 05:14:25 am
It's a matter of mocking government structures and misleading people.  For instance, if I set up something I called the North Florida Traffic Court and, with a bunch of my extended family, adjudicated traffic cases, it would be wrong.  I would be pretending to have a governmental status I don't have.  Likewise, one who claims to be a tribal office is claiming a governmental status and position.

I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.  This is just my understanding of the difference between a tribe and some other kind of cultural group.
[/quote]

The Southern Cherokee Nation is not Mocking the host Government of Kentucky.  We were an Indian tribe with a flag and constitution, prior to our arrival to Kentucky. When Principle Chief "Over the Hill" Martin brought the Southern Cherokee nation back to Kentucky from Indian territory he immediately notified then Governor John Y. Brown that they had moved within the confines and juristiction of the State of Kentucky. In turn, the Governor welcomed us and recognized us as an Indian tribe and even offered further assistance. Since that time in 1893,  we have maintained our government and continued to burn our sacred fire. The Southern Cherokee Nation also stages a yearly Green Corn Ceremony and has stayed active within the local community of Henderson, Kentucky. We have not dceived anyone as to who we are; we are who we say we are!
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 27, 2007, 05:20:43 am
sorry about that buffaloheart ment to say bw instaed of bh on the second part of the letter
 and the first of the leeter was for you . i was not saying it was from you.

BH writes:

No problem LostCherokee, I just thought it needed to be clarified....wado!
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 27, 2007, 12:28:12 pm
It's not an issue of mocking state governments--it's an issue of mocking tribal governments.

And I didn't say the SCNK are doing that--I genuinely don't know.  My response was to BW's assertion that "tribes" that spring up overnight do no harm.

You say you have your government structures still.  I'd like to hear about that.  Have you elected leaders all these years?  What kind of authority did they have in day-to-day life?  If elections and authority were destroyed at some point (which they were even for the CNO and EBCI)--how were they reconstructed?
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on March 28, 2007, 12:35:20 am
Here are the links to posts by Harold Youg concerning Viper,KY;

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=18017;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=18012;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=18729;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=18017;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

So is this the Cherokee Nation of Kentucky????
                                                                           Weheli
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 28, 2007, 01:46:57 am
NO it is not the cherokee nation of kentucky

Maybe  from yester years long forgotting

Viper is in the Eastern  part of the state

 The  newly forming nation is in Western ky
 about 6 hour drive apart
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 28, 2007, 02:02:57 am
You say you have your government structures still.  I'd like to hear about that.  Have you elected leaders all these years?  What kind of authority did they have in day-to-day life?  If elections and authority were destroyed at some point (which they were even for the CNO and EBCI)--how were they reconstructed?
[/quote]

Buffalo writes:

Traditional use of the title 'Chief' is an honor restricted to those leaders of Native American tribes who have received the title through tribal selection or inheritance. Our Chiefs have been empowered primarily through inheritance http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/chiefs.htm .  Most of our important decisions are by a consensus of the Council of Elders with Chief Manfox having the final say.  Chief Manfox is free to make administrative decisions in order to conduct the various operations and details of the SCN.  These day to day decisions are just too numerous to list.  However, here is a news letter update concerning a very important tribal function that exemplifies the decision making process of the SCN.

Update 9-4-2006

I am pleased to give the following update on our current tribal affairs to all members of The Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky. On 9-2-2006 your tribal government met in council to review and sign our updated constitution and sign our Letter of Intent to Petition for Federal Acknowledgment to the BIA. In attendance was Chief Manfox and the entire tribal government and council and the signing of these historical documents were witnessed by many tribal members who came to view this historic event and the celebrations was like another Greencorn! After the signing, the pipe was passed and the ashes were shared, and it was a good day. Our documents were also blessed, and members went to our sacred fire to ask the creator to bless and guide our actions and on this peaceful night the smoke carried our prayers high. Our documents were then wrapped in doe skin and returned to the Tribal Judge for submission and recording. Our next scheduled council meeting will be on 10-28-2006. Stay tuned for future updates and announcements.

May the Creator bless each and every one in The Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky

Wado
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 28, 2007, 02:47:01 am
Your chiefs are chosen by inheritance?

I trust you know that is really against the grain for Cherokee people, since long before contact when chiefs could be made overnight, and they could lose power overnight, too, at the whim of the villages they "chiefed."  And, of course, once the CN in the 1800s committed to a constitutional government, more U.S. style elections for a national principle chief were the norm. 

Is monarchy established in the constitution you mentioned, as well?

And you mentioned recent examples of governance--was there day to day governance of this sort since your ancestors are said to have split off from CNO?

Thanks for answering these questions.  I'm genuinely curious.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 28, 2007, 04:20:31 am
Your chiefs are chosen by inheritance?

I trust you know that is really against the grain for Cherokee people, since long before contact when chiefs could be made overnight, and they could lose power overnight, too, at the whim of the villages they "chiefed."  And, of course, once the CN in the 1800s committed to a constitutional government, more U.S. style elections for a national principle chief were the norm. 

Is monarchy established in the constitution you mentioned, as well?

And you mentioned recent examples of governance--was there day to day governance of this sort since your ancestors are said to have split off from CNO?

Buffalo writes:

The SCN is not a Monarchy. This is a term traditionally reserved for rulers of small European countries where it was written into their constitution that the eldest heir would someday be King.  We do have an executive branch, legislative branch and judicial branch all of which are primarily comprised of our Elders. We also have seven Clan Mothers all of which are also Elders. The Elders play an important role within the SCN and continue to find their way into positions of responsibility and accountability. We have evolved differently from other contemporary Cherokee and I hope we do not pattern ourselves after them. We are more traditional, but admittedly not as traditional as our ancient ancestors, but we are comfortable with who we are. I did find a link that you might be interested in.

http://www.cherokeebyblood.com/cherwar.htm


Thanks for answering these questions.  I'm genuinely curious.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 28, 2007, 04:51:20 am
Buffaloheart,

Most the time when i post i get right to the point it may sound at times i am hatefull or trying to be mean to the person ,but im not i just like getting right to the point.
Thank you with answering most questions  with definitions of the title or term,i think most people ejukated enough to know what the word means.

As far as the link you posted makes for good reading but most have already read it   straight from  Mooney and Mails
When someone or a site refers to regalia as custume justs turns me away from that person or site
since you are saying its a good site are you saying you put youre custome a few times a year and just play and act indian

You say you  are traditional but not  as traditional  as our ancestors let me ask you this  since you have it out there for the whole world to see..
Since when is it tradition to have a 8 inch concrete block in the sacred fire or is that a new tradition that im not aware of.................
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 28, 2007, 05:13:48 am
And you mentioned recent examples of governance--was there day to day governance of this sort since your ancestors are said to have split off from CNO?
[/quote]

The Chiefs of the SCN have a history of interacting with the local community of Henderson, Kentucky. All interethnic interactions require strong communication skills and decision making by leaders that will positively impact the dynamics of both groups. The main function of our Chiefs has been to look out for the health and welfare of the Cherokee people, and make decisions that are in the best interest of the SCN. If you scan our historical documents you will see a few more examples of positive interactions with the community of Henderson, Kentucky. If you would like more dramatic examples of decisions made by the Chiefs of the SCN please contact Chief Manfox:

manfox@henderson.net

PS- We did not split from the CNO in the sense that we left on a voluntary basis. We were burned out and our people murdered by the Pin Cherokee. Chief “Over the Hill??? Martin made the decision to Kentucky to ensure the survival of the SCN.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 28, 2007, 05:22:56 am


The Chiefs of the SCN have a history of interacting with the local community of Henderson, Kentucky. All interethnic interactions require strong communication skills and decision making by leaders that will positively impact the dynamics of both groups. The main function of our Chiefs has been to look out for the health and welfare of the Cherokee people, and make decisions that are in the best interest of the SCN. If you scan our historical documents you will see a few more examples of positive interactions with the community of Henderson, Kentucky. If you would like more dramatic examples of decisions made by the Chiefs of the SCN please contact Chief Manfox:


Since as you can see above you are big on referring to documents
can you show me any documents from the past ten years for positive interactions other than the  supossed recent ones from the GREAT Ernie Flecther
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 28, 2007, 05:31:07 am
You say you  are traditional but not  as traditional  as our ancestors let me ask you this  since you have it out there for the whole world to see..
Since when is it tradition to have a 8 inch concrete block in the sacred fire or is that a new tradition that im not aware of.................
[/quote]

Buffaloheart writes:

Well I guess you did not like the link I posted.....lol   I agree, I think a nice big rock might have been a better choice, but it wasn't actually in the fire was it? I thought it was used to keep the logs proped in place.......You make a good point though and I will run it by the Elders.

Peace Brother  
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 28, 2007, 05:40:04 am
No disrespect to you or youre elders you shouldnt have to run it by youre elders
They should know better and know how to build the fire. If they really know how.........
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 28, 2007, 06:01:17 am
Since as you can see above you are big on referring to documents
can you show me any documents from the past ten years for positive interactions other than the  supossed recent ones from the GREAT Ernie Flecther

Buffalo writes:

Our Tribal members have lobbied for a Native American day in several state juristictions over the last decade and have been sucessful in a few cases. We have only a few of our documents posted on our web site that are readily viewable to the public. I am sure that the BIA will be asking all the questions that you have been asking and then some. Again you may contact Tribal headquarters, if you need further proof of our genuineness. I wish you luck.    
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 28, 2007, 06:12:33 am
No disrespect to you or youre elders you shouldnt have to run it by youre elders
They should know better and know how to build the fire. If they really know how.........

No disrespect taken.  If you ever choose to visit, Our lodge is always open to you.

Blessings to you Brother,

Buffalo
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 28, 2007, 12:02:59 pm

The SCN is not a Monarchy. This is a term traditionally reserved for rulers of small European countries where it was written into their constitution that the eldest heir would someday be King.  We do have an executive branch, legislative branch and judicial branch all of which are primarily comprised of our Elders. We also have seven Clan Mothers all of which are also Elders. The Elders play an important role within the SCN and continue to find their way into positions of responsibility and accountability. We have evolved differently from other contemporary Cherokee and I hope we do not pattern ourselves after them. We are more traditional, but admittedly not as traditional as our ancient ancestors, but we are comfortable with who we are. I did find a link that you might be interested in.


"Monarchy"=generic term for rule by a hereditary leader whose powers range from nominal (see current UK monarchy) to absolute (see old UK monarchy).  Not limited to Europe at all (Japanese emperors, Hawaiian rulers, etc.--all monarchies).  Sure the term is English, but so is the term "chief."  If your chiefs are hereditary, you have a monarchy.

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 28, 2007, 01:18:13 pm
Sure the term is English, but so is the term "chief."  If your chiefs are hereditary, you have a monarchy.
[/quote]

Buffaloheart writes:

Monarchy is one of the oldest forms of government, with echoes in the leadership of tribal chiefs, but we prefer the term chief over monarchy. Monarchy does not ring true for describing the government of Native American tribes. It brings up images of Europeon royalty. Just as some Cherokee people take exception to the term princess; we take feel the same way when you attempt to describe us as a monarchy. When I spent time in the South Pacific I did not hear the Islanders referring to their chief as the monarch.  Additionally, an absolute monarchy is somewhat associated with despotism, whereas we have a constitution and a council of elders. I just think your choice of terms when describing Native Americans could be better. Again I wish you luck.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 28, 2007, 11:39:24 pm
just wondering BH you going to ignore all the other questions asked or are you just pretend they questions was not asked at all
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 29, 2007, 01:43:06 am
Most the time when i post i get right to the point it may sound at times i am hatefull or trying to be mean to the person ,but im not i just like getting right to the point.
Thank you with answering most questions  with definitions of the title or term,i think most people ejukated enough to know what the word means.
[/quote]

Buffalo writes:

Your questions are cynical and facetious.  You are an intelligent man, so stop masquerading as a bumpkin. We are done.

Blessings from Creator 
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 29, 2007, 02:54:41 am
Thats fine what you think of me and my questions everyone has there opinion.
But would you please answer some of the questions that have been asked.......
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 29, 2007, 03:25:15 am
Thats an impressive family history BH

http://home.comcast.net/~metisheart/
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on March 29, 2007, 03:42:07 am
Lostcherokee 'siyo dohitsu oginali,
I am Cherokee from Ky. I know my lineage and am very much educated in traditions,culture, government and cerimonies of my People.

Questions:
What is ment by Contemporary Cherokee?
Since when do Cherokee have swet lodges?
Do you believe in all the nonsense publised in Mooneys book? Costumes
The "governmental practice of appointing chiefs, clan mothers/clans, medicine people, ect. How do you go about this? As far as I have read it is much like other Internet "Cherokee Tribes".
How are the women treated and where is there stance in decision making?
What are your Cherokee Spiritual beliefs?
Do you know what is the most sacred item is for the Cherokee.
Do you know the sacred herbs?
What are the color of our 4 directions?
Are you a internet "Tribe"

These are just basic information for people who want to be a state recognized tribe. These are not even the hard ones.
Simple questions you should know the answer to.
I come in respect to gather information before I form my own opinion ,and out of respect for an Elderly woman, NOT AN ELDER, there is a difference, I ask you these questions.
                                                                   Wado Weheli

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 29, 2007, 04:33:13 am
Thats fine what you think of me and my questions everyone has there opinion.
But would you please answer some of the questions that have been asked.......

The Little Boy And The Rattlesnake

A Cherokee Legend
The little boy was walking down a path and he came across a rattlesnake. The rattlesnake was getting old. He asked, "Please little boy, can you take me to the top of the mountain? I hope to see the sunset one last time before I die." The little boy answered "No Mr. Rattlesnake. If I pick you up, you'll bite me and I'll die." The rattlesnake said, "No, I promise. I won't bite you. Just please take me up to the mountain." The little boy thought about it and finally picked up that rattlesnake and took it close to his chest and carried it up to the top of the mountain.
They sat there and watched the sunset together. It was so beautiful. Then after sunset the rattlesnake turned to the little boy and asked, "Can I go home now? I am tired, and I am old." The little boy picked up the rattlesnake and again took it to his chest and held it tightly and safely. He came all the way down the mountain holding the snake carefully and took it to his home to give him some food and a place to sleep. The next day the rattlesnake turned to the boy and asked, "Please little boy, will you take me back to my home now? It is time for me to leave this world, and I would like to be at my home now." The little boy felt he had been safe all this time and the snake had kept his word, so he would take it home as asked.
He carefully picked up the snake, took it close to his chest, and carried him back to the woods, to his home to die. Just before he laid the rattlesnake down, the rattlesnake turned and bit him in the chest. The little boy cried out and threw the snake upon the ground. "Mr. Snake, why did you do that? Now I will surely die!" The rattlesnake looked up at him and grinned, "You knew what I was when you picked me up."
 
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 29, 2007, 07:48:49 pm
Sure the term is English, but so is the term "chief."  If your chiefs are hereditary, you have a monarchy.

Buffaloheart writes:

Monarchy is one of the oldest forms of government, with echoes in the leadership of tribal chiefs, but we prefer the term chief over monarchy. Monarchy does not ring true for describing the government of Native American tribes. It brings up images of Europeon royalty. Just as some Cherokee people take exception to the term princess; we take feel the same way when you attempt to describe us as a monarchy. When I spent time in the South Pacific I did not hear the Islanders referring to their chief as the monarch.  Additionally, an absolute monarchy is somewhat associated with despotism, whereas we have a constitution and a council of elders. I just think your choice of terms when describing Native Americans could be better. Again I wish you luck.
[/quote]

Hereditary chiefs are by far the exception today, not a norm, in American Indian societies.  I can't think of any federally recognized tribe with hereditary chiefs, and even state recognized Cherokee tribes that I know of have elected governments .  That's why I'm puzzled that your tribe would choose monarchy, hereditary chiefs, whatever you call it. 

Do you have an oral history as to why this was done? 
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 29, 2007, 07:53:36 pm
Thats an impressive family history BH

http://home.comcast.net/~metisheart/


Somehow I don't think Metis people would take too kindly to buffalo heart's (mis)use of their name!
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: debbieredbear on March 29, 2007, 11:04:50 pm
I don't think so either, NMC. But I will let Ric speak to that.

Some of the tribes here in the Pacific Northwest have hereditary chiefs. It's more common in Canada, along the coast, and in Alaska.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 30, 2007, 02:04:41 am
Thanks for the info, debbieredbear!  I appreciate the correction.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 30, 2007, 02:09:40 am
Somehow I don't think Metis people would take too kindly to buffalo heart's (mis)use of their name!
[/quote]

The members of MNS have banded together with a desire to honor and respect our unique mixed-blood heritage. We often call ourselves "southern" Metis in an effort to distinguish ourselves from the Red River Metis of Canada as well as other Canadian Metis --- and in recognition of the distinctive history of mixed blood natives south of the Canadian border.

Our members have come together to share and preserve the history and heritage of our unique cultures -- a true melting pot -- and to prepare a path for future generations. The MNS is a gathering of Metis (mixed bloods) who benefit through the sharing of our individual experiences. We are a "family" composed of the people who didn't exist in either the white or native world and who are often identifed as "the people who own themselves." We have pride in our heritage and in ourselves, thus we are proud mixed bloods: Metis, Mestizo, Mulatto, Melungeon, and/or Bemdineek, breeds, et cetera. Our common denominator is our aboriginal heritage and culture which expands beyond international boundaries. We support each other as we share family stories, cultural traditions and spiritual beliefs that encompasses all parts of our ancestry.

I am also a member of the Metis Nation of the South and the Melungeon Heritage Assoc. Is this also going to be an issue?
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 30, 2007, 02:26:31 am
On the contrary, I think that explains a lot.  Let me guess, a lot of "Southern Cherokee" are also "Melungeon."

I like how you continue to ignore the salient questions posed by Weheli and lostcherokee.  Classy. 
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 30, 2007, 02:35:23 am
Just me as far as I know. Are Metis and Melungeons now under attack!
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 30, 2007, 02:43:22 am
You going to answer Weheli's or lostcherokee's questions?
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 30, 2007, 02:52:16 am
I think you should answer them. You seem to be the resident expert on all aboriginal cultures to include definitions. 
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on March 30, 2007, 03:18:16 am
BH,
The question I spoke in post#70 wre actually directed at you. I do not understand why you refuse to answer just ONE. Do you not know the answer?
Coming from this Southern Cherokee nation and "the "tribe" stating how they know there tradition's ect. Why are you hesitant oginali?

                                                                          nv wa do hi ya da
                                                                          Weheli
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: debbieredbear on March 30, 2007, 03:19:03 am
True Metis are not under attack. And for your info, their are Metis south of the Canadian border. They are in Montana, North Dakota and some around the great lakes. A mixed blood is not neccessarily a Metis. Someone who is not Metis, but mixed blood, and calls themselves Metis, is a poser. My husband's father was a Metis from Turtle Mountain rez, ND. He is descended on that side from the Red River people. Me, I am mixed blood and do not feel the need to make myself into something I am not.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 30, 2007, 03:32:48 am
Do you have tribal affiliation?
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on March 30, 2007, 03:34:56 am
 ??? Your point is????
                               Weheli
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 30, 2007, 03:49:10 am
Red Bear, This is a nice Metis discusion group and open to the public. You just might like it.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southernmetis/
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 30, 2007, 04:37:02 am
BH,
The question I spoke in post#70 wre actually directed at you. I do not understand why you refuse to answer just ONE. Do you not know the answer?
Coming from this Southern Cherokee nation and "the "tribe" stating how they know there tradition's ect. Why are you hesitant oginali?

                                                                          nv wa do hi ya da
                                                                          Weheli

It was addressed to Lost Cherokee, but I do not have to prove up to be Cherokee. My dad taught me that I am. What you are asking me to do goes against my instincts. I am sorry.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 30, 2007, 06:55:07 am
Buffaloheart,
I end up in western ky 2 or 3 times a year
  so if youre offer still stands i would love to visit and look around some...
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on March 30, 2007, 07:09:15 am
BH
I have noticed that on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_Watie
It looks like some of youre group has edited the info on there and put youre website link on there
thats one way to get youre name out there.
And i have a question for you i know youre web site is different from the southern cherokee nation of Ok.
you have the same flags and a few other things the same but all the way at the bottom is the copyrights
theres is from 1999 to 2004  i think and yours is from 2004 to present
dont you think its just a little bit odd that SCN of ky picks up from when they stop
and that i have seen you do not have any history before that on the internet that is
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: debbieredbear on March 30, 2007, 04:22:36 pm
BH,

I am unenrolled Kiowa. And thanks but no thanks for the southern "metis" link. I am on a few real Metis sites and also general yahoo discussion sites that have many mixed blood and full blood people on them.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Ric_Richardson on March 30, 2007, 06:42:11 pm
Tansi;

While we keep hearing about the "Southern Metis" the true Metis people do not give credibility to those who choose to misuse our name, in order to appear to make claims about Aboriginal ancestry without having any historical claim to our Culture, Language or Heritage.

Metis people did not and do not have "Hereditary Chiefs".  We elect our leadership, based on democratic principles.  Our distinct Culture has been the result of centuries of living, as a distinct Culture.

At Batoche, we often find people claiming to be Metis, who end up really feeling out of place, among our people. 

Stop stealing my Heritage and Culture and distorting it to suit your selfish purposes!

Ric
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 30, 2007, 10:39:14 pm
I think you should answer them. You seem to be the resident expert on all aboriginal cultures to include definitions. 

I'll take that as an acknowledgment you can't answer them.

I'm not a resident expert on all aboriginal cultures and have never claimed to be.  Your attempt to turn the discussion away from the legitimacy of your "nation" looks, frankly, goofy.  I know my culture and do not appreciate people who think that one very distant Cherokee ancestor makes them Cherokee unless the cultural connections have been maintained all along or unless (in some cases) there has been a genuine effort to live among Cherokee people today.

For example, I have one distant German ancestor.  If I wanted to learn about being German I would go to Germany, not find other vaguely German-descended people and found our own "Deutschland," declaring it a sovereign nation.  That would be absurd.

I heard thirdhand your "chief" (or maybe it was one of the other "SCN" chiefs) has been wearing an owl bone necklace.   I wonder if that's true and if it's your chief, but I imagine if I asked, or asked you if you knew why that creeped out the person who relayed it to me, you would just ignore the question.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 31, 2007, 01:16:30 am
Tansi;

While we keep hearing about the "Southern Metis" the true Metis people do not give credibility to those who choose to misuse our name, in order to appear to make claims about Aboriginal ancestry without having any historical claim to our Culture, Language or Heritage.

Metis people did not and do not have "Hereditary Chiefs".  We elect our leadership, based on democratic principles.  Our distinct Culture has been the result of centuries of living, as a distinct Culture.

At Batoche, we often find people claiming to be Metis, who end up really feeling out of place, among our people. 

Stop stealing my Heritage and Culture and distorting it to suit your selfish purposes!

Ric

mé·tis (m??-t?s', -t?')
n., pl. métis (-t?s', -t?z').
A person of mixed racial ancestry.
often Métis A person of mixed Native American and French-Canadian ancestry.
A crossbred animal.
[Canadian French, from Old French metis, of mixed race, from Late Latin mixt?cius, mixed. See mestizo.]

I never said that the Metis had inherited Chiefs and I do not have to give up my mixed blood heritage. You do not have exclusive rights to the word Metis/Mestizo as it has been around for eons.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 31, 2007, 02:08:33 am
I think you should answer them. You seem to be the resident expert on all aboriginal cultures to include definitions. 

I'll take that as an acknowledgment you can't answer them.

I'm not a resident expert on all aboriginal cultures and have never claimed to be.  Your attempt to turn the discussion away from the legitimacy of your "nation" looks, frankly, goofy.  I know my culture and do not appreciate people who think that one very distant Cherokee ancestor makes them Cherokee unless the cultural connections have been maintained all along or unless (in some cases) there has been a genuine effort to live among Cherokee people today.

For example, I have one distant German ancestor.  If I wanted to learn about being German I would go to Germany, not find other vaguely German-descended people and found our own "Deutschland," declaring it a sovereign nation.  That would be absurd.

I heard thirdhand your "chief" (or maybe it was one of the other "SCN" chiefs) has been wearing an owl bone necklace.   I wonder if that's true and if it's your chief, but I imagine if I asked, or asked you if you knew why that creeped out the person who relayed it to me, you would just ignore the question.

Buffalo

One drop of Cherokee blood makes a Cherokee; it is very powerful……I do not need your approval or validation.  I was sealed by my Cherokee family.  Only greedy government agents and racists are concerned about blood quantum levels.

PS – Braves do not listen to Gossip 
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Ric_Richardson on March 31, 2007, 02:41:39 am
Tansi;

BH you have misused a very strong Cultural identification, by claiming that Metis is just a mix of Aboriginal and non-native.  Our people have, over centuries, developed a very distinct Culture.

In the Canadian Constitution, there are three recognized Aborinal people, the Indian, Inuit and Metis.  It is truly unfortunate that you do not come from a distinct Culture, but stop trying to damage those of us who have lived our entire lives as Metis!

I live in a distinct Metis community, in northern Saskatchewan.  We recognize that there are many Metis people, but do not appreciate the misappopriation of our Culture by wannabees.

Credibility, you have not achieved! Stop the disrespect!

Ric

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 31, 2007, 02:43:50 am
Tansi;

While we keep hearing about the "Southern Metis" the true Metis people do not give credibility to those who choose to misuse our name, in order to appear to make claims about Aboriginal ancestry without having any historical claim to our Culture, Language or Heritage.

Metis people did not and do not have "Hereditary Chiefs".  We elect our leadership, based on democratic principles.  Our distinct Culture has been the result of centuries of living, as a distinct Culture.

At Batoche, we often find people claiming to be Metis, who end up really feeling out of place, among our people. 

Stop stealing my Heritage and Culture and distorting it to suit your selfish purposes!

Ric

mé·tis (m??-t?s', -t?')
n., pl. métis (-t?s', -t?z').
A person of mixed racial ancestry.
often Métis A person of mixed Native American and French-Canadian ancestry.
A crossbred animal.
[Canadian French, from Old French metis, of mixed race, from Late Latin mixt?cius, mixed. See mestizo.]

I never said that the Metis had inherited Chiefs and I do not have to give up my mixed blood heritage. You do not have exclusive rights to the word Metis/Mestizo as it has been around for eons.


Naw, the term's only been around since there were French people in the new world.

Your rule is that if a term literally translated to something else, and you qualify as that something else, you can apply the original word to yourself and cultural context be damned.

So, let's apply that rule.

"Dine" literally translates to "people," and you are a person, so you can now call yourself Navajo and not feel bad.  That would make exactly as much sense as calling yourself Metis with a big M.  Metis are a specific culture, not a generic category.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on March 31, 2007, 02:52:08 am

One drop of Cherokee blood makes a Cherokee; it is very powerful……I do not need your approval or validation.  I was sealed by my Cherokee family.  Only greedy government agents and racists are concerned about blood quantum levels.

PS – Braves do not listen to Gossip 


If you don't need approval, why are you here?

Blood (traditionally and for many people still blood from a Cherokee MOTHER) and culture together make a person Cherokee.  Blood alone will never be enough except for those who wish to play Cherokee without the real hard work of following and adapting culture within a dominant society (or the hard work of not having white privilege).

You are hilarious.  I'm guessing you haven't met many "braves."
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 31, 2007, 03:14:42 am

One drop of Cherokee blood makes a Cherokee; it is very powerful……I do not need your approval or validation.  I was sealed by my Cherokee family.  Only greedy government agents and racists are concerned about blood quantum levels.

PS – Braves do not listen to Gossip 


If you don't need approval, why are you here?

Blood (traditionally and for many people still blood from a Cherokee MOTHER) and culture together make a person Cherokee.  Blood alone will never be enough except for those who wish to play Cherokee without the real hard work of following and adapting culture within a dominant society (or the hard work of not having white privilege).

You are hilarious.  I'm guessing you haven't met many "braves."

I have a Cherokee maternal connection. 4 out of 4 of grandparents have Cherokee blood. In other words, I was raised by Cherokee/Melungeon people. If it is in your character to gossip then continue to do so. 
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 31, 2007, 03:19:51 am
Tansi;

BH you have misused a very strong Cultural identification, by claiming that Metis is just a mix of Aboriginal and non-native.  Our people have, over centuries, developed a very distinct Culture.

In the Canadian Constitution, there are three recognized Aborinal people, the Indian, Inuit and Metis.  It is truly unfortunate that you do not come from a distinct Culture, but stop trying to damage those of us who have lived our entire lives as Metis!

I live in a distinct Metis community, in northern Saskatchewan.  We recognize that there are many Metis people, but do not appreciate the misappopriation of our Culture by wannabees.

Credibility, you have not achieved! Stop the disrespect!

Ric



"To be Melungeon is to be Metis. Metis is derived from a French word meaning Mixed. And if Melungeons are anything—they are Mixed.

I became interested in the Metis because I am always on the lookout for groups that celebrate the heritage of ethnically/racially mixed people. It is especially important for groups to make available opportunities to celebrate heritage for the many folks of mixed ancestry. The same principle that brought me to the Melungeons caught my interest regarding the Metis.

The Metis are best known historically as a mixed breed of people in Canada, particularly from the Red River area. But in recent years the Metis Movement has spread to the USA with individuals and groups in the United States looking for a way to celebrate their mixed ancestry. The American Metis Movement has now grown in this nation as a way to identify mixed ethnic/racial ancestry, particularly that of mixed European and American Indian heritage.

Melungeons have a rich and interesting history. My ancestor Martin Branham was in the Hawkins/Hancock County area of Tennessee at an early stage of the forming of Melungeons in that particular area, circa 1800. I am proud of my Melungeon heritage and always will be.

My Melungeon heritage also falls under the larger banner of Metis or métis, as it is an ethnically/racially mixed ancestry. Here might be a good place to draw a distinction between the Canadian Metis, and the southern, or American Metis. A distinction should be made because despite similarities of being ethnically mixed, the Canadian Metis have their own unique history and background that is separate from other ethnically mixed individuals and communities. The term Metis that I am speaking of regarding Melungeons is separate from our northern neighbors. I am talking about a generic term for ethnically mixed people, a label classification rather than a specific historic people. Metis with a small "m" métis, is the technical term for ethnically mixed groups. I use the capital "M" simply because most people do not recognize any difference between the small or large case meaning, and because some American Metis groups do use the large case spelling. That makes it even more important that we draw a distinction between the southern and northern Metis. So understand that my use of this word is not to take away from our northern ethnically mixed Canadian neighbors. And it should also be understood that I am not co-opting the word, because many American Metis in the lower 48 States are already using the term Metis to relate their mixed aboriginal heritage.

The term Metis allows me to celebrate all my ancestry, which includes German, English, Irish, Cherokee, Melungeon and other heritage. That is what I like about the American Metis definition, it being inclusive, it is a win/win situation that recognizes my Melungeon ancestry and my other heritage as well, all under the banner of Metis."

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Ric_Richardson on March 31, 2007, 04:33:00 am
Tansi;

Even though there are many, especially in the USA, who fraudulently use the term Metis to try to achieve recognition as Aboriginal people, we Metis people, like many of the other Aboriginal peoples who have had their names misused, take offence at your attempts to gain credibility on our coat tails.

I know that there are many people who try to claim status, as Aboriginals due to a lack in their own lives and Cultures.

This does not make it acceptable to claim the efforts and blood of my people!

We are not just a mixed blooded people.  In my own case, my Cree relatives also Respect my being Metis, based on Cree and non-native ancestry, history and Heritage.

Also, there are real Metis people, living in the USA, who descended from our own Metis people, and who would also likely take offence at your abuse of our name.

Why don't you just call yourselves mongrels and leave it at that!

Ric
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on March 31, 2007, 05:27:00 am
One of the problems I see with the Mestee in the U.S. is there is no specific Nation by that name. There are some from Canada or from around the Northern border states that are recognized. But it is a culture, not just a mixing of races, as the term is used in the U.S.  The Melungeons are a true tri-racial mix, but it depends on who they wish to identify with. This is an old argument, and it varies from individual to individual. http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/melongeons.html    frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on March 31, 2007, 05:28:30 am
http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/melungeons.html
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 31, 2007, 05:57:17 am
Tansi;

Even though there are many, especially in the USA, who fraudulently use the term Metis to try to achieve recognition as Aboriginal people, we Metis people, like many of the other Aboriginal peoples who have had their names misused, take offence at your attempts to gain credibility on our coat tails.

The (Metis Nation of the South) MNS does not seek nor want "recognition" from any "federal" government. We do not want any "federal" benefits or monies. We consider CDIB cards (Certificates of Degree of Indian Blood) issued by the BIA in the U.S. as a continuing genocidal effort by the federal government to "solve the Indian problem."

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 31, 2007, 06:19:21 am
Why don't you just call yourselves mongrels and leave it at that!

Ric
[/quote]

Walter Plecker's racist crusade against Virginia's Native Americans.
 
"Some of these mongrels, finding that they have been able to sneak in their birth certificates
unchallenged as Indians, are now making a rush to register as white." -- W.A. Plecker


http://www.mitsawokett.com/Plecker.htm
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on March 31, 2007, 12:00:28 pm
"We consider CDIB cards (Certificates of Degree of Indian Blood) issued by the BIA in the U.S. as a continuing genocidal effort by the federal government"

That kind of hysterical claim signals to most NDNs that this is being said by someone who has little idea what true genocide is. It makes it far harder for nonNatives to take it serious when NDNs talk about *actual* genocide.

The "not wanting recognition" bit is often a way to avoid admitting they could never get recognition anyway because the ties to actual Native communities or ancestors are often very distant.

Many of the "southern Metis" or "US Metis" groups (outside of the actual Metis communities in the US living near Canada) often are just heritage groups of PODIAs passing along misinformation and sometimes Nuage ideas. The practice of PODIAs calling themselves "Metis" comes straight from Nuage exploiter Hyemeyohosts Storm, who incidentally is now in hiding from child molesting charges according to ex members of his inner circle.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on March 31, 2007, 05:08:51 pm
"We consider CDIB cards (Certificates of Degree of Indian Blood) issued by the BIA in the U.S. as a continuing genocidal effort by the federal government"

That kind of hysterical claim signals to most NDNs that this is being said by someone who has little idea what true genocide is. It makes it far harder for nonNatives to take it serious when NDNs talk about *actual* genocide.

The "not wanting recognition" bit is often a way to avoid admitting they could never get recognition anyway because the ties to actual Native communities or ancestors are often very distant.

Many of the "southern Metis" or "US Metis" groups (outside of the actual Metis communities in the US living near Canada) often are just heritage groups of PODIAs passing along misinformation and sometimes Nuage ideas. The practice of PODIAs calling themselves "Metis" comes straight from Nuage exploiter Hyemeyohosts Storm, who incidentally is now in hiding from child molesting charges according to ex members of his inner circle.

I personally never heard of this individual until you brought him into the picture. I searched the MSN data base and this individual was not listed. I do not know that he ever was affiliated with the MSN. And if he was the MSN has apparently taken care of the problem.

 I do not disagree with you the recognition issue, because anti Indian institutional discrimination is a built in fact of life when dealing with government jurisdictions. 

The forced removal of Indigenous children from their families and placement in residential schools exemplifies assimilation as a form of genocide. .......No reason for hysteria!

Today's genocide

Tribal dis-enrollment and the blood quantum issue are spreading throughout Indian Country like a deadly cancer, eating away the cells of our existence....

Written by:
Tamra Brennan
Director of NDN News

[Note: A childish insults of yours was removed.
Also please include links in the future, and only post a whole article if it directly relates to the topic and is otherwise unavailable. This thread is wandering off topic quite a bit because of your habit of responding to questions with angry rhetoric that doesn't do much to clear up the subject.]
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: debbieredbear on April 01, 2007, 05:03:24 am
BH,

Instead of putting in things that have no bearing on this topic, why don't you answer the questions members have posed?
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on April 01, 2007, 05:09:24 am
Here is the link:

http://www.ndnnews.com/Tribal%20Dis-Enrollment%20Issues.htm

[Note: Once again removed duplicate information. Even though the article is off topic and BH only posted so ot so he could yet again avoid answering questions, I've left the link.]



Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on April 01, 2007, 05:22:03 am
BH,

Instead of putting in things that have no bearing on this topic, why don't you answer the questions members have posed?

Asking questions is one thing, but hostile interrogation is another. A lot of what has been generated on this forum has had angry overtones. The issue needed to be addressed and that is why the thread wondered off subject. This is my last post.

[Yet more insults removed. I'm sure we all see BH's pattern, avoid questions, insult, and run.]
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Buffaloheart on April 01, 2007, 02:32:06 pm
Tansi;

Even though there are many, especially in the USA, who fraudulently use the term Metis to try to achieve recognition as Aboriginal people, we Metis people, like many of the other Aboriginal peoples who have had their names misused, take offence at your attempts to gain credibility on our coat tails.

I know that there are many people who try to claim status, as Aboriginals due to a lack in their own lives and Cultures.

This does not make it acceptable to claim the efforts and blood of my people!

We are not just a mixed blooded people.  In my own case, my Cree relatives also Respect my being Metis, based on Cree and non-native ancestry, history and Heritage.

Also, there are real Metis people, living in the USA, who descended from our own Metis people, and who would also likely take offence at your abuse of our name.

Why don't you just call yourselves mongrels and leave it at that!

Ric
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on April 01, 2007, 06:13:20 pm
Buffaloheart,
If has been said the SCN of ky has been  around for 114 years but yet you choose to stay remain hidden,why

Not until recently has the SCN of ky come forward saying you are a real tribe ,but yet you had to go to Fletcher to get a so called state status,why you have been a tribe for 114 years.
   BH you come to this forum to set the members of the forum striaght,but yet most the questions you will not answer,why
 You say to contact Tribal headquarters, if you need further proof of our genuineness so they can answer some of these questions,but yet you cant answer the same questions because it goes against youre instinct,why
If if you are on here talking and tring to set poeple straight you should have permission from tribal headquarters already to answer any questions asked,   do you not have permission.

If you know tradition  then you know most if not all NDN's are big on respect to other people and respect to themselfs and with respect you have honor which goes hand in hand

 so with that said respect youre self and us either answer the questions  or honor youre word


which was       This is my last post     
   but you posted again
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on April 01, 2007, 11:43:22 pm
Well, I have a question I have been thinking about. Why would one Tribe try to join another tribe in an entirely different state because one supposably has "federal recognition". Someone explain to me exactly how that works, since I believe Nations or Tribes have their own rolls. I asking because here recently another group from South Carolina or Georgia was joining the Southern Cherokee Oklahoma and that is what The Southern Cherokee of Kentucky did not too long ago. I am aware of Absentees but this is not a situtation of Absentees. If you established your own continous active cultural and political activities since the 1900's, why? I don't think the letter of Oct 2006 really explains this. http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/oct_2006_letter_to_the_people.htm frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Ric_Richardson on April 02, 2007, 06:55:30 pm
Tansi;

I recognize the desire for those people who, discovering their Aboriginal ancestry, wish to learn more about their Heritage and find ways of "belonging."  My advice to them would be to go to the established Aboriginal communities, that they have descendancy from, use Respect and learn about the Culture of their ancestors. 

This does take time and patience, but could lead to a better understanding of their own Heritage.  I definitely have problems with people not taking the time to learn about their own Heritage and, using their own misunderstanding of what they would like their Culture to look like, creating structures that bear little resemblance to the Culture of their ancestors.

I also take offense at the misuse of terms, such as Metis, which are too often used when some of these groups are unsuccessful in gaining acceptance of the Aboriginal people of their own Heritage.

As a Metis person, I have learned about our history and Heritage and attempt to Respectfully pass these teachings on, to our next generations.  The blood of my ancestors permeates the land on which we live, with the memories of battles won and lost echoing through the valleys and forests to this day.  For a long time, our people were not recognized by governments and it was through the efforts of some of our dynamic people, that we have gained Constitutional recognition, by Canada.  We have been known as the "forgotten" people and were denied many Aboriginal Rights, such as a land base or any of the other Aboriginal Rights that we continue to fight for and often win.  When our people joined the armed forces, in WWI and WWII, they were denied Veterans Benefits given to non-native Veterans, even though they were credited with serving with distinction.

The reason that our Culture has gained official recognition, is largely due to the fact that we have continued to live our Culture, in spite of extreme efforts to force us to assimilate.  Even the community, in which I live, was used to relocate our people by force, in the 1940's.  The main language of our community is Michif, which is a blend of Cree (Nehiyawin), French and English.

In being Metis, my father always told me that I should always Honour and Respect the family members that I have, who are Status Indians, since all Metis people have relations on Reserve and are only Metis, due to being part First Nation.  I have had the priveledge of meeting with many of my family, on various Reserves, including at Mistawasis (Big Child), where my wife and I were Honoured in being danced out in the Grand Entry of the annual Pow Wow, and being introduced to the Band as a returning Band member and his wife.  As my Grandfather came from Mistawasis, but became "enfranchised" as a Canadian, in order to join the army in WWI, many people remembered him with Respect.  Between the World Wars, he married a Metis woman and raised many children, four of whom he took with him, when he joined the military, in WWII.  It is to Canada's shame that many Reserves were reduced in size, in order to give land to non-native Veterans, following WWI.  Aboriginal Veterans, both First Nation and Metis were not given lands or other Veterans benefits, and have only recently had the opportunity to regain the Rights as First Nations people, which had been taken away by joining the War efforts in WWI. 

For this individual, who chooses to go by the name BuffaloHeart, to claim to be Metis, to me is offensive and is likely an attempt to gain credibility by claiming our Heritage and History, which he has not lived.  Even using the MNS as a acronym is offensive, since I belong to the MNS (Metis Nation Saskatchewan.)

With Respect to my Ancestors.
Ric

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on April 15, 2007, 03:40:18 pm
 http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/sitemap.htm
part of there letter to the people
  The good news is, we have received our federal number and have been requested to send in the remainder of our documents and rolls.  We will need everyone's paperwork in by May 1st to send to Washington.  Please tell your friends and family to get theirs in.  After they receive our roll, only descendants of our enrolled will be able to enroll.  This is the last chance for many of us.


and now offering this in there group
My brothers and Sisters,
Several of you have contacted me for copies of our seal. If there is an interest I would like to offer our seal on T-shirts, sweatshirts, coffee mugs, cutting boards, ceramic tiles, license plate frames and clocks with all proceeds being donated to our Nation. An example price: $10.00 +shipping for a coffee mug which would have the SCN seal on one side and your name written in English and Cherokee on the other, T-shirts with SCN seal $20.00 +shipping . If folks are interested I will post a complete merchandise and price list. All merchandise is Sublimation printed by a professional printer. This could be a way we can support our Nation and show our Native pride.

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on April 24, 2007, 04:17:36 am
Heard from Fletchers office today and they said  the southern cherokee nation of kentucky is not state reconized, now if the state will do something about it and make them stop saying it.....but they did go on to say they are working on a criteria for state tribes andhow the native american heritage commity is working with them,but the only problem is that SCN cheif manfox is a vise chair of the commity
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on April 24, 2007, 03:32:18 pm
just my oppinion but based on the hole state recognition and other things .
its time to move them to frauds...........
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Laurel on April 24, 2007, 03:43:13 pm
"My brothers and Sisters"--

Has there ever in the history of humankind been an instance when that phrase was not a premable to "gimme yer money"?
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on April 24, 2007, 03:47:54 pm
Seems mostly what these groups are interested in, they call it operating costs. I remember at one time one of the "Chiefs" in Arkansas was making more than Chad Smith. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Laurel on April 24, 2007, 04:51:45 pm
Who asked them to "operate" a faux nation in the first damned place, I wonder?!  It should cost them plenty. 

Laurel
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on April 24, 2007, 09:09:37 pm
I think LC is right, if they can obtain become State recognized it is legal for them to sell their crafts under the Arts and Crafts Laws. Plus a non-profit organization, which most of these are are tax exempt. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 01, 2007, 01:50:37 pm
here is something of interest on there site

A few points of interest, our Native American Holiday will go before the Kentucky Legislature in January, so next July 12th we may have a lot to celebrate.  Also we received good news today, some of our native family, have been chosen for a free ride at Indiana University, by using their tribal card with the SCN of Ky.  It may be helpful to other college bound SCN members.

 http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/june_newsletter.htm

Isnt the above statement a little fraudulant stating they have tribal cards and getting them into a school with it.
Again i as they be moved to frauds
Lost Cherokee
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on May 01, 2007, 03:48:31 pm
There is a group at IU that might be interested in this situation IF it is true and not just something Manfox claims to try to get people to join.

This does seem to cross the line from "confused and with an exaggerated sense of entitlement" to "fraud."
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 01, 2007, 06:25:23 pm
They are sure not confused if they call it a "free ride". That's insulting. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on May 02, 2007, 02:51:55 am
This speaks LOUD and clear what this group is all about$$$$$$$. It is things like this that you hear people say " all they want is a free ride, State and Federal money". This is a major insult to me as a Cherokee and all the Cherokee!!!!

Also why are Cherokee's holding inipi ceremonies??? They don't even know thier culture!!! >:(
                                                                                   Weheli
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 05, 2007, 12:17:53 am
Well it would seem some members have wised up and are questioning if they are state rec. or not
But some are die hard and saying cheif would not point them in the wrong direction or lie to them..


This is from there groups

TIME AND TIME AGAIN WE ASK THAT YOU CONTACT US BEFORE SPREADING RUMORS OR UNTRUTHS ,REMEMBER THAT JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO OUR BROTHER JOE CAME UNDER FIRE FOR NO GOOD REASON ,WE AS CHEROKEE PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN THAT,YOU SOUND MORE LIKE THE WHITES,REMEMBER WE TRUSTED THEM AND SEE WHAT THEY DID TO US,I BELIEVE WE ARE ABOVE ALL THAT.IF WE AREN'T WE DON'T NEED TO CONTINUE.HERE IS A QUOTE FROM GOVERNOR FLETCHERS DOCUMENT:
       ON DEC.26.1893,THE SOUTHERN CHEROKEE WERE WELCOMED TO KY. AND RECOGNIZED AS AN INDIAN TRIBE BY GOV.JOHN Y.BROWN,AGAINIST ALL ODDS THE SOUTHERN CHEROKEE HAVE SURVIVED AS THE SOUTHERN CHEROKEE NATION OF KY.AND HAVE MAINTAINED A NEARLT EXTINCT  CULTURE BY CONTINUING TOBURN THEIR SACRED FIRES IN HENDERSON CO.KY.
        NOW WE HAVE 2 GOVERNORS THAT HAVE RECOGNIZED US AS AN INDIAN TRIBE.BUT AT THIS TIME WE DO NOT HAVE STATE CRITERA,THAT IS WHY I HAVE BEEN APPOINTED TO THE CRITERA COMMISSION,I HAD TALKED TO THE GOVERNOR'S AIDE PERSONALLY AND SHE PERSONALLY ASSURED ME WE WERE RECOGNIZED,THE FORMER COMMISSION HAD BEEN WORKING ON CRITERA FOR OVER 5 YEARS TO NO AVAIL,NO ONE CAN AGREE ON ANY ISSUE,I HOPE TO PUT AN END TO THIS.SO PLEASE CONTACT US IF YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS manfox@henderson.net please feel free to contact us.MY PEOPLE WHAT I DO IS FOR YOU.I WORK VERY HARD TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN.PLEASE BE PATIENT AND ASK ME DON'T GO OFF  HALF COCKED.MARGARET AND I ARE FIGHTING AND WORKING EVERYDAY FOR YOU AND WE ARE HONORED TO DO SO .WE ARE FAMILY AND WE LOVE EACH ONE OF YOU,YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH WORK THIS IS,WE WILL WORK TIL OUR LAST BREATH FOR THIS NATION,AS CHIEF I AM YOUR SERVANT.WHEN A SOLDIER IS WOUNDED THE GOVERNMENT  PAYS TRIBUTE TO THE SOLDIER BY GIVING HIM A PURPLE HEART,THESE DOCUMENTS THAT THE GOVERNOR S HAS GIVEN US IS OUR PURPLE HEART.AND IN MY EYES TRIBUTE IS RECOGNITION.MAY OUR CREATOR CONTINUE TO BLESS EACH AND ALL.WITH OUR LOVE AND RESPECT,CHIEF AND CHIEF MOTHER
PS. WADO TO ALL OF YOU THAT SUPPORT US EVERYDAY.
 
 
 
 Lost Cherokee
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 06, 2007, 04:52:23 pm
Why would SCN which is in Henderson ky .Have a lawyer in Evansville In.
Iknow they are just seperated by the river but you would think they would want a lawyer from ky
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 07, 2007, 04:58:08 pm
University at Evansville has a Law School and pre-law. Might be cheaper, I would think that could be rather expensive. No telling really. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 07, 2007, 05:42:34 pm
They show    Price, Gary K.    and give address that shows up as
Bowers Harrison,LLP
http://www.bowersharrison.com/attys.htm
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 07, 2007, 05:52:20 pm
He focuses on Intellectual Property Rights, and so on. Interesting. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 07, 2007, 05:58:04 pm
More interesting is to join there msn groups you have to give them youre roll# from the SCN address and all that
They have there selfs listed on the Manataka web site

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 08, 2007, 12:33:35 am
Well, you know Manataka is commerical. I am guessing they are going to attempt to copyright their name, SCN of Ky. Since the only recognition they have is they exist, if they copyright they can sell under that name. Still will not be able to sell as authentic, but the average tourist at a pow-pow won't know the difference. Just guessing, but it's pretty slick. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 08, 2007, 01:00:02 am
This is true but best i can remember there "lawyer" told them that they was turned down on copyright of name and all that.But you also have to keep in mind the longer there name is out on the web and where ever else it maybe.The more people are going to think that the SCN is legit and state.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: Needs More Caffeine on May 08, 2007, 01:29:31 am
Interesting location for the lawyer.  I wonder if he is licensed to practice in KY.  It doesn't look like he is from his bio.  Usually you have to be licensed in each state in which you practice, with some exceptions.

I don't think you can copyright a name, but you can trademark it.  Any chance the different Southern "Cherokee" "Nation" groups might be litigating among one another for the trademark to the name?

I'm curious to see what has been altered about that document from Fletcher on their web site.  KY Penal Code, 2nd Degree Forgery statute is kind of interesting: http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/KRS/516-00/030.PDF (http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/KRS/516-00/030.PDF)
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 08, 2007, 02:00:36 am

http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/november_newsletter_2006.htm
November Newsletter 2006

 

 

Our Dearest Brothers and Sisters,

We would like to apologize for this being late.  We have had a lot going on.

I have good news and some bad news.  We'll start with the bad news.  Andrew Light has filed an objection to our trademark.  Our attorney has informed us that it will cost $20,000 plus and at least a year to fight this.  The good part of it is the burden of proof is on Andrew Light.  This means that we will be able to see all of his records.  This way we can prove they have no proof of existence since the Civil War.  Of course, the money is a problem.  But our attorney also said that it would take $25,000 to 50,000 to fight us.

We never wanted to stoop to Andrew Light's level, we have shown we are good Cherokee People, so our battle begins, please pray for our Nation and this man Andrew Light.  If I may borrow some words from a very wise Cherokee woman - No Moccasin Woman, she says often we need to go to war for nation, our Brothers and Sisters and our children, when they are ill, lost, hungry, suffering, challenged and THREATENED.  She is also correct in saying that we go forth with great power and force with the power of our ancestors, we must pray to our ancestors for wisdom and guidance to lead us.

I have heard from a reliable source that Mr. Light is a rogue element, and that he does not represent the Southern Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.  He is causing Oklahoma as much trouble as he is us.  They say he has absolutely no authority or even a group.  If this is true, the destruction of Mr. Light is imminent.

Now for the good news.  I have called BIA in Washington, D.C.  I was informed that our documents are at present on the desk awaiting our file number.  Once we have received our file number we will fall under the protection of the BIA, and they will be able to help us with Andrew Light.  We have his site.  It is:  www.southerncherokeeok.com/news.html - The only council members are Andrew Light and his daughter.  There are many slanderous things about us.

The holidays are approaching, we need to give thanks to Our Creator for all our blessings and for the strength, wisdom, and healing that He has already bestowed on us.  We also pray for the homeless, the hungry, the sick, all of our service personnel and their families, They are over there trying to help other people on foreign ground and our U.S. Government and "Our Leader".  How fortunate we all are even with war and misfortune, our Prayers are also out for the wives, husbands, mothers, fathers, children, family and friends to deal with their losses, we are thankful but feel their grief and loss.

We have had much sickness, illness, loss of loved ones, loss of financial monies but we still have each OTHER MY FAMILY!!!!   

As you know, I have been out of work for 7 months plus with my back injury, now I have 2 battles to fight.  Workers Comp is giving me GRIEF by not wanting to give me the care I need.  How can people be so cruel.  I call them and ask when I'm going to get a check or get relief, they tell me they are frustrated.  "Excuse me", I said "your frustrated, try not having food, gas, medicine, or a pay check, at least your getting a pay check.

Enough of that , we hope all of you have the happiest of holidays and that the Creator continues to bless all of you, our Brothers and Sisters.  Until December Newsletter  With all of our love.  Chief and Margaret.




They are also getting a petition together in texas ,There idea is if texas's will send them the same letter a flecther did it will be easier to get fed. since the there eyes they are already state..
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on May 08, 2007, 03:51:52 pm
They don't seem to know much about the BIA or the recognition process. Their Office of Federal Acknowledgement is supposed to be impartial. They're pretty unlikely to be doing anything to protect a group that is still going through the recognition process, even if they ever get approved. Recog time is incredibly slow, the longest the process has ever been. Last figure I heard was that it's now up to twenty years or more.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 08, 2007, 05:20:52 pm
They lost the trademark fight. Received their file number. Now the wait begins, some have lasted over 20 years. http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/April%20newsletter%202007                   frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 08, 2007, 09:24:07 pm
Thats assuming that they have really filed
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 10, 2007, 08:04:22 pm
LC, I can't find out one way or the other right now. Will check again next week. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: weheli on May 10, 2007, 08:53:55 pm
Ok I am a little  ::)confused here, how many Southern Cherokee Tribes, Nations, are in this thread or are they splinters off of each other, perhaps just changing their names, moving around so as to "Scam". Perhaps today my mind is "bifuddled" but these "Cherokee Tibes" mulitply faster than rabbits.   ???

http://www.cherokee.org/home.aspx?section=phoenix&ID=H/yXnQ2HqDo

http://www.cherokee.org/home.aspx?section=phoenix&ID=H/yXnQ2HqDo=

Even reading through these links can be confusing. There is a email address at the end of the article, I have used it to report groups.

                                                                                Weheli
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 10, 2007, 09:06:01 pm
LOL, I know. This one KY group is the one that joined the one in Okla last year, and got involved in all the chaos that was going on in that group. Then I think they quit and went back to KY if you read that letter in Oct from Manfox. Bottom line says they were dupped. Now they is one in Georgia or Carolina that has joined the group in Okla. A friend of mine says they were a hugh group. The Okla one before they were caught. And I guess they were taking in a bunch of smaller groups. None of these are recognized. Only in their own mind. A group in Arkansas tried to do the same, taking in a bunch of smaller groups, that was before she met her demise. She had stated they had put in for Federal Recognition, but it was all made up. They found out after the fact. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 14, 2007, 06:45:23 pm
Well, so far no filing noted in 2006, none through Feb 2007, may come in later if deadline was 1 May. I see the one in Ark has now filed. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 14, 2007, 08:47:30 pm
here is ther online petitionand ther claims to BIA visiting and them filing
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/712134165?ltl=1179175173#body



FEDERAL RECOGNITION FOR SOUTHER CHEROKEE NATION OF KENTUCKY

OSIYO & WA-DO,
ALL AMERICANS,
AS A TRIBAL MEMBER OF THE SOUTHERN CHEROKEE NATION OF KENTUCKY, I AM PREVILIGED TO TELL YOU ABOUT THESE HARD WORKING AMERICAN INDIANS & WHY, WE ARE ASKING FOR YOUR  SIGNATURE & HELP IN THIS LONG SOUGHT AFTER ENDEAVOR.
OUR TRIBE'S 'PROVEN' EXISTANCE IS OVER 140 YEARS. WE KNOW FROM PROFESSIONAL GEOLOGIST'SIT IS 1000'S OF YEARS & YOU ARE WELCOME TO GO TO OUR WEBSITE AND AND READ THESE PROFESSIONAL, NOTORIZED STATEMENTS, HTTP://SOUTHERNCHEROKEENATION.NET THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY FIRST SIGNED A STATE RECOGNITION DOCUMENT OF OUR TRIBE IN 1893, BY GOVERNOR JOHN YOUNG BROWN. WHEN OUR WEBSITE HTTP://SOUTHERNCHEROKEENATION.NET HIT THE INTERNET, ALONG WITH THE DOCUMENT FROM GOVERNOR JOHN YOUNG BROWN FROM 1893 MANY SCOFFED AND CALLED US LIARS. IT WAS AN OLD DOCUEMNT, OLD WRITING, BUT, IT IS REAL. OUR HONORED CHIEF 'MANFOX' SHOWED THE 1893 STATE RECOGNITION DOCUMENT TO THE PRESENT GOVERNOR ERNIE FLETCHER, IMMEDIATELY THE GOVERNOR, WITH 2006 PAPER & WORDING RE-AFFIRMED GOVERNOR JOHN YOUNG BROWNS FIRST STATE RECOGNITION. NOW WE HAVE BEEN STATE RECOGNIZED FOR 104 YEARS.
THE BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS CAME TO OUR TRIBAL LAND. OUR HONORD 'CHIEF 'MANFOX' PREPARED OUR DOCUMENTS, PRESENTED THEM TO THE BUREAU MEMBERS WHO CAME FROM WASHINGTON, EACH & EVERY DOCUMENT WAS APPROVED. WE REC'D OUR REGISTRATION NUMBER. THAT NUMBER SIMPLY MEANS, THEY USE THE NUMBER, WHILE 'CHECKING OUR TRIBE, FOR ETHICS, CREDIBILITY, ETC.'.  I WAS TOLD BY OUR TRIBAL LEADERS, IT WILL PROBABLY TAKE 25 MONTHS, AND THEN THE BIA CAN TELL US ..NO!!!! IT CAN TAKE UP TO 30 YEARS AS WELL. WOULD  OTHER ETHNIC GROUP IN AMERICA HAVE TO WAIT THAT LONG FOR ANYTHING. DO NOT CONSIDER THAT WHINING, IT IS JUST A FACT.
WHEN ASKED ABOUT CASINO'S OUR CHIEF, SAID 'ABSOLUTEY NOT'. WE CARRY OUR ANCESTOR'S BLOOD THAT IS OUR GIFT. ANYTHING 'GIFTED' TO US AS AMERICAN INDIAN'S IS BECAUSE OF ANCESTOR'S, NOT US. WE CAN NEVER STAND IN THEIR PLACE AND SAY 'WE DESERVE' AND THIS GREAT AMERICA WILL NEVER HEAR A MEMBER OF THE SOUTHERN CHEROKEE NATION OF KENTUCKY SPEAK THOSE WORDS. WE RECEIVED THE GREATEST GIFT OF ALL 'INDIAN BLOOD'.
OUR HONORED CHIEF 'MANFOX' SERVES ON THE NATIVE AMERICAN HERITAGE COMMISSION AS VICE CHAIRMAN. HE WORKS WHENEVER HE IS ASKED, & WHENEVER HE CAN VOLUNTEER, FOR THE COMMANWEALTH OF KENTUCKY TO PRESERVE & TEACH! HE HAS TAUGHT US WELL, & CONTINES TO TEACH. HE ALSO WORKS LIKE A FULL TIME JOB LIKE MANY AMERICANS. WE EXPECT NOTHING FOR OURSELVES, FOR WE DESERVE NOTHING. OUR ANCESOR'S WANT US TO HELP ALL AMERICAN INDIAN'S. AND WE HELP NOW, WITH NO RESOURCES, JUST, MEMBERS WORKING WITH CHIEF'S HELP AND INSTRUCTION.

SOMETIME AGO AN ELDERLY MEMBER FOUGHT HIS WAY TO HIS HOME STATE OF ILLNOIS LEGISLATURE AND WORKED UNTIL THEY PASSED AMERICAN "INDIAN DAY" NO POWER, NO FORCE, NO HELP. A 79 YEAR OLD AMERICAN INDIAN, HELPING ALL AMERICAN INDIANS IN HIS HOME STATE.
THEN ONE OF OUR MEMBERS, RESIDING IN TENNESSE AND SCHEDULED FOR OPEN HEART SURGERY FIRST OF JUNE, CONTACTED THE GOVERNOR OF TENNESSEE, AND WORKED UNTIL HE GOT A PROCLAMATION FOR "AMERICAN INDIAN DAY" IN TENNESSEE.
ANOTHER MEMBER IS WORKING IN ARKANSAS FOR AMERICAN INDIAN DAY THERE, IT IS SOON TO ARRIVE.
ANOTHER MEMBER IS WORKING IN ALABAMA.
ANOTHER IS WORKING IN TEXAS WITH THE GOVERNORS OFFICE AND STATE LEGISLATORS, SHE IS MOST TIME IN A WHEEL CHAIR.

OUR SOUTHERN CHEROKEE NATION OF KENTUCKY REC'D A LETTER THIS 3RD WEEK OF APRIL 2007, STATING THAT OUR AMERICAN INDIAN DAY, WAS NEAR TO PASSING IN THE KENTUCKY LEGISLATURE.

DO WE WORK OR SIT BACK AND WHINE? IS IT ALL FOR US? ARE WE HELPING ALL NATIVE AMERICANS, AMERICAN INDIAN'S?

WE DO ALL THIS WORK, AS MEMBERS, IN ALL THESE STATES FOR ALL INDIAN'S. WE COULD JUST AS EASILY SIT BACK, DO THINGS IN KENTUCKY AND FORGET IT. HOWEVER, WE HAVE MEMBERS SCATTERED ALL OVER THIS GREAT COUNTRY, AND WE WILL WORK UNTIL WE HAVE AMERICAN INDIAN DAY, IN EACH STATE. WHY? WE CARE. DO WE MAKE MONEY FROM IT? ""NO""

WITH LOVE AND HAVE SPIRIT FOR ALL ETHNIC GROUPS, WE PLEAD WITH YOU TO STEP FORWARD, AND HELP OUR SMALL TRIBE GAIN FEDERAL RECOGNITION. IN SO DOING YOU WILL BE HELPING US OPEN SO MANY DOORS, TO HELP SO MANY MANY MANY HUMAN BEINGS.

WA-DO [THANKS]
SMOKE & PRAYERS
NO MOCCASIN WOMAN

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 14, 2007, 08:58:13 pm
lol. no wonder the BIA can't find it. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 14, 2007, 09:56:40 pm
Kay Bailey Hutchison, United States Senator is who the petition is for,
she is a senator for texas
wonder if they have a petition going in any other states



Lost Cherokee
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on May 15, 2007, 05:08:45 pm
Hutchinson is not likely to listen to them. She's very conservative.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: frederica on May 15, 2007, 06:11:52 pm
Why would they petition Texas if they are in Kentucky? That makes little sense. Plus some ot the tribes that have already actually filed petitions did so in the 1970's and are still waiting. Csn't see why this one would be fast-tracked. Sounds a lot like the one that was claiming the Clintons, when he was President, was going to fast-track a tribe. But it was all made up to keep the members happy. And that one had never even filed. frederica
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on June 08, 2007, 01:53:03 pm
I know this topic is more about SCN but it seems bruce brading is tring his best to get them state rec.
So it seems fitting that this should be putt in here too.
Maybe hard to prove but worth checking into......




http://theruraldemocrat.typepad.com/the_rural_democrat/2007/03/index.html
 
Fletcher draws criticism from Native Americans
I was contacted last night by a dear Native American friend of mine from Oklahoma. He is planning on moving to Kentucky this summer but he is rethinking his move because of appointments made by Governor Fletcher in regards to a little known state commission called the Kentucky Native American Heritage Commission. The only official link is here.

Apparently Fletcher was tricked into making some new appointments to this commission. Fletcher also left off some names that has apparently pissed some people off. Some of the prominent names on this commission is Former First Lady of Kentucky Judy Patton, Rep. Reggie Meeks (D) Louisville and Dr.David Pollack Director of the Kentucky Heritage Council. A Native American Blog called the Kentucky Native American Politics claims the new chairperson Bruce Brading is a shady character that may be in some big trouble. Fletcher sure looks like he may have screwed up big this time.

This story could blow up in Fletcher's face if the allegations made by the Native American Blog is true. Fletcher is apparently making some more appointments to boards and commission over the next month. I guess that's what they call 11th hour and mid-night appointments. He is apparently so desperate for votes he is willing to turn the screws on Native Americans in Kentucky for votes. I hope this does blow up into a big deal and I will laugh my ass off when Fletcher tries to explain his way out of it. I am starting to believe Fletcher just can not do anything right.

I will follow this story for a while and see what happens.

From the Kentucky Native American Politics

New Heritage Commission Chair involved in alleged illegal activity

In a widely circulated E-mail Mr. Brading and others (presumably Marty Martin as COWUC president)were alleged to have been involved in highly illegal activity that goes directly against all Federal, State, and Local Laws. It also violates the sacred trust we have with our ancestors. If this is even partially true then it is time to make your voices heard at the state capital!

The e-mail reads in part
"Bruce and his group are currently receiving human remains from folks throughout the state, transporting these remains, and reburying them. All of these activities are in violation of current Kentucky statutes. One of my concerns is that while many of these remains may have been found at prehistoric archaeological sites other may have been found at historic cemeteries and still others may be recent murder victims. A good way to get ride of the remains of someone you killed years ago would be to contact Bruce, and tell him that you found them at an archaeological site. He would then take the remains and rebury them somewhere else.

I want to assure you and others that neither I nor anyone else at the Heritage Council would have ever designated COWUC as the sole representatives of the native american community in Kentucky.

David Pollack
Kentucky Heritage Council Site Protection and
Archaeology Program Administrator, and
Director, Kentucky Archaeological Survey"




Lost Cherokee
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on April 18, 2008, 06:15:07 pm
Here is there latest news letter
http://www.southerncherokeenation.net/march_2008_newsletter.htm

Osiyo Brothers and Sisters,
                       As you know we have the remains returned to us-we will be reinturring them on April 5th at 2pm at my families cemetery in Reed, Ky.  There are four of our Chiefs already buried there.  If anyone wished to attend you are more than welcome-it is a very sacred event.  If you wish to bring items to put in the burial -cedar, tobacco or beadwork or anything sacred to you to send with our beloved ancestors.  These offerings will be welcome.  Eagle, Owl, and Hawk feathers will be offered also.  Part of the states request was that they be placed in a perpitual graveyard.  There are seven individuals that will be placed in one communal grave.  If you cannot attend you may send whatever you would like to have interred and we will make sure that your wishes are carried out.
                      We would also like to let you know all of the documents that goes to the BIA have been sent to our court clerk (Sunhawk Woman) to record  them and she will send them onto the BIA for registration.  I must let you know we are under the EYES of the BIA-we must behave ourselves as the true Cherokee People we are,  Make no mistake their EYES are upon us all.  I am sure the Government will have many more hoops for us to jump through and we must follow their rules and we will do so.  There are roughly 1150 of us.  Let us all stand as one, One Nation under the Creator.  I believe we will accomplish all of our goals.  Again you can reach us at #270-546-2868 or our e-mail is manfoxscn@yahoo.com .
                      As you may not know two Bills have passed the House of Reps concerning State Recognition.  They will now go before the Kentucky Senate, hopefully they will pass the Senate, then the Bills will go before our governor.  Please let the Kentucky Senate and the Governor hear from all of us.  The old saying is the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
                                                                                 Smoke and Prayers,
                                                                                  Chief Manfox

WE ARE THE ONLY SOUTHERN CHEROKEE NATION

We are not affiliated with any group calling themselves Southern Cherokee

Copyright © 2005-2008 Southern Cherokee Nation Kentucky, All Rights Reserved

I havent found anything on new bills but havent had time to look.
Then you have to take time to consider that bruce brading,ken phillips is part of the heritage commission .That about says it all with them 2 they are up to there eyes with bingo troubles

Lost Cherokee
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: V Hawkins on April 19, 2008, 11:02:19 pm
I have spent a great deal of time researching Kentucky, from before its founding to the present -- and there never was a Cherokee presense in Kentucky except hunting or war parties, and one bunch went westward into Oklahoma through part of Kentucky on the "Trail of Tears" -- but other than those temporary times and events -- the Cherokee were NOT in Kentucky.

Any group other than the Cherokee Nation (based in Tahlequah), and the Eastern Band (based in NC) and the "Keetoowah Band" (also based out of Tahlequah) is NOT federally recognized. There are several state recognized groups and one of them (Etowah based out of Lawrence, Winston and Walker Co's in Alabama) has been PROVEN to have used false imformation in order to receive state recognition.

All the other groups are people who "might have" some Indian blood, perhaps Cherokee, perhaps not. Many eastern woodlands tribes just dissapeared from history at one point. Average members want to reassert some "Indianness" in their daily lives, and fall prey to charlitans with fake tribes who will "make them a member of their tribe".  They tell them what they want to hear.

vh
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on May 07, 2008, 06:19:52 pm
i wouldnt go as so far as to say there has never been a presense in ky  books dont tell you everthing
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on October 26, 2009, 12:01:30 am
It seems now that cherokee's done most of there ceremony's during the time of the full moon
The chief is now giving lessons on old ways and tradition..

http://www.southerncherokeenationky.com/cherokeeculture/lessonsfromourchief.html


Lost_Cherokee

Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: goozih on October 26, 2009, 09:06:58 am
Indians practicing their traditions = BEAUTIFUL

White people pretending to be Indian = RIDICULOUS (That's putting it mildly)
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: lostcherokee on October 27, 2009, 04:14:27 pm
Seems they have Chief Doublehead  Cornblossom  and a troxell baby buried on there great hill.
There great hill is a long way from Ywahoo falls.
the names on the stones looks more modern carved than carved in 1810
http://www.southerncherokeenationky.com/thekentuckycherokee.html

Lost_Cherokee
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: educatedindian on April 05, 2012, 03:55:09 pm
I received this email from the SCNK new chief, formerly the vice chief. The old one stepped down...I'll let his email describe it.
Bolding is mine.

-------------
Osiyo ani oginali.

This letter is to introduce ourselves to the NAFPS and to learn from your site all that we can to further our cultural journey. You may not be aware, but there has been great turmoil within what WAS the Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky. Though the name, Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky does still exist, it was brought to real life on March 26th of 2012. More than half the original citizenry has determined that the former “Nation” was full of too many questionable habits and decided to move our Nation forward with honesty, dignity, transparency, and a zeal to learn, grow, and perpetuate our culture and heritage.

The former Principal Chief, Michael Manfox Buley did, of his own accord, send a letter of resignation to the entire leadership of the SCNofKY and the Council voted to accept his resignation. I, being the Vice-Chief, and by virtue of our constitution, did ascend to the position of Principal Chief and will remain in this position until such time as a formal election can be held.

As stated previously, the SCNKY “came to real life” on March 26th, 2012 when we filed for status as a non profit Corporation as the Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky, Inc. Our purpose is the education of our people in “traditional” Cherokee culture, the education of the average citizens of Kentucky and everywhere that Native Americans are still very much alive, and the continuation of our rich heritage. Though, as the former citizens of the Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky, we lay claim to all that our heritage has brought to us and that which we deserve, we are also realistic in our expectations. We will strive to live in harmony with ALL Native American entities, especially Cherokee and seek nothing other than what our heritage allows.

Dave “Stands With His People” Fallis, Principal Chief

Southern Cherokee Nation of Kentucky, Inc.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: UpRising on April 14, 2012, 02:13:07 pm
I am so confused......... :-\ My Folks are Cherokee but born in the smoky mountains of Tennessee, I was born in North Carolina, does that make me a southern or a northern Cherokee and am I allowed to start my own "SouNor" Tribe???  Just a jokin bout the subject which I think all of "guests" seem to be confused on, and Yes Braveheart......IT DOES MATTER THE QUANTUM OF BLOOD! Other wise majority of the world is Cherokee. If I wouldbe a white woman who received a heart transplant from a Full Blood Cherokee would that make me Cherokee or a blood transfusion, would that make me Cherokee?? Me thinks your really good at copying and pasting the crap you find on the internet and skirt the issues and answer the questions asked with questions because you really don't know all that much truth about the Tsalagi people and that you are a wannabe with a white mans heart who wants to be NDN.
Title: Re: Southern Cherokee Nation of KY?
Post by: earthw7 on April 17, 2012, 12:43:35 pm
the problem with people who heard maybe they have native blood start doing what they believe is tradition
and believing they have the right to be what maybe their great great great great great grandparents were but they did not grow
up in the culture or understand the culture but want to be so bad they dont care how they do things they look in books and start with
what they believe is culture and it becomes a mixture of newage stuff, Cherokees dont have sweat lodges and today we see them all over
cherokee country because they dont know who they are