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NAFPS: The Book-Let me know what you think

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The appednix, both of them, sound like excellent additions. The first sounds like it will be quite a hoot to read, the dictionary, the second just very important for all to read.


Al, I have 3 areas of interest and I see 2 incorporated in your book.

13. How Nuagers Harm People of Distant Indian Ancestry (PODAIs). What gets all the publicity is the word "wannabe" for small blood quantum people. What doesn't get much publicity is the federal governemt's forced requirements, where Indian people were told if they moved away from the tribe they lost tribal citizenship, this included the tribe being moved away fom them. Also the unfairness of using the Dawes as census records. It was a record of who received 160 acres and never pretended to be anymore than that. Many government policies "forced" people off the rolls, and since those times these people have been getting Whiter and whiter -- I'm one. Also descendants of Indian people on the east coast
are hard to prove.

These are the people being taken advantage of.

14. Phony and Would Be "Tribes" --are taking advantage of people in # 13,m as well as giving Caucasioan people with NO Indian blood a place to "play Indian". Often fake chiefs make REAL attempts to drive a wedge between the people you call "PODAI's" and the federally recognized tribes who are only trying to help them. When I had the "Society of Absentee Cherokee" it never got off the ground largely because I made a mistake of telling all the fake Cherokee tribeal Chiefs I found out about online -- I assumed they'd want communication with the Cherokee in Tahlequah -- mistake -- that was the last thing they wanted. We arttempted to find common ground between the unenrolled Cherokee and the Cherokee Naiton based in Tahlequah. Members of those fake tribes kept everything stirred up saying "you can't trust enrolled Cherokee, they've always kept us at arms length, et cetera". They wound up warning their members about us, rather than telling them about the breakthroughs we were making -- we were in direct communication with officials of the Cherokee Nation. But these members of these made up tribes constantly insulted the enrolled people we were trying to communicate with . . . Once they convinced unenrolled Cherokee not to trust enrolled Cherokee (your friend Darren McCathern has done this by the way with his organization -- Society of Chickamauga Cherokee -- that he has "hidden" on his website -- telling them enrolled Cherokee have always hated them. This is typical "cult behavior".

And the third would be Stomps. A few years ago you never heard of "fake stomps" as they were off the radar screens -- newagers had never heard of stomps until Anderson nad Wolfe have placed them online. Now you'll be seeing more and more of them being faked, too. But with the internet and them being mentioned here and there there are a few sites popping up -- especially Anderson's and Wolfe's.

My goal for "Society of Absentee Cherokee" was to see a forum whereby unenrolled people of Known Indian blood could interact freely with enrolled Indian people of their tribe without the stigma of the term "wannabe" being applied to them. I quickly discovered that was the last thing these people who created these fake tribes wanted -- interaction between the two. Once people on both sides met or talked face to face, they'd discover these fake tribes for what they were --fakes.

I couldn't do it. I never knew how to motivate anyone . . . But I still seek this outcome. Your book is a great idea. It doesn't matter who does the motivating, so long as the word gets out.

The more educated people are the more they will gravitate away from the hundreds of fake Cherokee tribes and start lookiing more realistically getting a better communication with KNOWN Cherokee. Once enrolled Cherokee see this they'll create tehir own societies for the unenrolled (There already is Cherokee Historic Societry that anyone can join -- but I am hoping for others one day, collaborations between enrolled and unenrolled people) and they are starting to think on these terms . . . This is more of a Cherokee problem but it also includes tribes seeking recognition, that were declared extinct long ago, and perhaps a few others. You could have a chapter on nothing but Cherokee fake Cherokee chiefs and misguided people who believe them.

These are a few concepts and ideas I'd like to see mentioned, things I am deeply committed to.


The book outline is fabulous. ? Yes, it's going to stir the pot big time.  It will also catch some people before they get hurt and maybe give others the idea that Respect is missing from the equasion.  

a suggestion.  What about the subject of the sacred being for sale? ? Sacred *items* such as pipes real and fake and certain items of antiquity? ? There is so much available on the market and through online auctions and web sites. ? There are people that make aledged pipestone Pipes who sell them on ebay for use in rituals by whom ever can afford them.  Likewise I have seen archaic pieces online for sale from private collections.

Protected species is another issue.  I'd still like to know if that is a Golden Eagle wing that I have seen in pictures with Sonier. ? As we discussed in an earlier incarnation of the NAFPS, feathers and other parts are protected and are only available to Native Americans. ? The ? local wannabe poobah or fake group should not be able to get them.  

Museums occasionally liquidate parts of their collections to dealers and collectors. ? Mounds are looted and spill areas are canvassed by collectors working near mounds - I recently found a website from ----- that showed a mound on property being dug by local collectors (with photos) looking for points and pots and whatever else they happened upon. ? heh Of course I notified proper people about this. ?  Is it respectful to go tromping on a Mound?  Lots of tourist down here look forward to it on guided tours.  I find it dis-respectful and apalling but then I am a bit crazy about spiritual matters.

Apparently is not against the law to buy "a truckload" of Pre-columbia artifacts for re-sale in ones online business.. It appears the country is loosing items to collectors by the container load. ? In my line of work I am concerned about this.  I ocassionally run across items that could be of sensitive nature or which I at least feel should not be out there in someones cabinet as a mere curio. ?  

Items like these are part of lost cultures and traditions.  They once belonged to people.  That's the problem, the idea that they once belonged to a *person* is gone and many are reduced to mere monetary or scholarly value but they still need respect ? and protection.  Lets not forget that in the wrong hands, some of these things can cause harm on the spiritual level.

On another note I was at an event where I watched as "totem" animals were being called in along with all sorts of other things... Boy was I surprised.  I don't usually go to events but I wound up at this one on the sidelines. ? The few traditional Witches don't mish mash things like this.  It seems to be the norm these days.  

But then the books out there now that these new people are reading and people they are going to, the "poobahs" as we know, make it all appear to be the generally accepted thing to do.  People that are not satisfied with their own religion they were brought up in decide to adopt new ones based on a book they read.  Be Hindu today!  Be a Psychic!  Be a Witch and do "love spells" tonight or be something else.  It's all in books it must be ok.

There needs to be a book that tells people what is right and what is wrong and why.  I think the book Al is writing is a much needed one in a sea of mis-information.  Now you have to get it marketed in with the New Age type books and you have to have a glitzy cover to get them to look at it.?


Joseph-I'm starting a thread on the dictionary right now, and want as much input as possible.

Vance-I think we're in pretty much agreement on these issues. I'll be quoting a lot of what you've said on these forums. Don't be surprised if you become a little bit famous.

And I'll be trying to list every would be Cherokee tribe that's abused its members, as complicated as that's gonna be.

I've never even spoken with McCathern, just thought some of his warnings are helpful. Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed most of his warnings are no longer on his site? Wonder if Anderson sent a lawyer after his server, or maybe one of the would be tribes.

Linda-I'm adding a chapter, Selling the Sacred: Crass Commercializing of Native Beliefs, Practices, and Sacred Objects by the Nuage, and How Money Changes Native Traditions. It'll be chapter 3, since placing it early on will win over many readers who disagree. I think the focus will have to stay on Nuagers who sell sacred objects more than the main offenders, museum and amateur collectors, though I will point out how their mentality differs very little.

Al said --

And I'll be trying to list every would be Cherokee tribe that's abused its members, as complicated as that's gonna be.

reply --

he he -- you got a big job on your hands . . .

Al said --

I'll be quoting a lot of what you've said on these forums.

reply --

Well thanks I guess. But if I'd a known that I'd have taken a bath & put on my best suit before I typed anything . . . maybe that would have helped my spelling.


I'm gonna leave Darren alone from here on -- bury the hatchet. :) no point to continuing on with that feud . . . mom used to say Dad's family held grudges for ever and never forgave anything . . . I don't agree with what she said, but I've thought about it, and I don't wanna be like that.



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