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Ayahuasca
bls926:
--- Quote from: A.H. on May 15, 2008, 01:01:56 pm ---I must share this;
This medicine works... outside any cultural norm. Oh my God how it works!!! It is extreme and physically demanding and unpleasant so I can't understand how anyone could abuse this for simple pleasure or getting high. It is not possible.
I LITERALLY threw up my accumulated "existential angst" and those feelings haven't returned yet. I can contemplate the eternal questions without getting depressed every night and falling into the state of lack of meaning and will to live, now.
It feels like it switched off this mechanism... I can now recognize the pattern of thoughts that previously pushed me into extremely nihilist state of mind, but now it just stops at the rational level and those negative emotions don't occur.
So even though I only imagine this effect as a result of literally hearing "some(thing)(one)" commanding me to accumulate the existential angst through the whole night of incredible insights and physical pain and nausea and then throw it up violently (like throwing up my soul and dieing) in the early morning - it still worked. Calling it placebo is easy. I have now too much respect for it to reduce it to just this...
I think this medicine should be studied as a priority and incorporated into western (and any other) psychological treatment. It should probably also be synthesized so that increased demand does not cause any further ecological and cultural damage to indigenous people and the Amazon rainforest.
We are "plastic" civilization, so I think it is appropriate for us to use "plastic" medicine with the right knowledge if we continue to live in a "plastic" way.
"Return to nature" and going back to any "old ways" seems like utopia (and meaningless) at the moment and actually one of the insights that reassured this position to me was directly like that (spoken by "something" I percieved as outside my receptive tought process): "humans are part of "nature" - you are born/made out of the same substance as everything else, everything you do is therefore "natural" - you cannot do anything OUTSIDE the natural order. All your actions, everything you call artificial or human-made is already a part of this same system. You can't work outside it, because you are IT. Everything you use is IT, everything you do is IT, when your technology reaches nano-level, when you will be constructing molecules out of nano-elements your technology will be exactly the same as you are made - there is (will be) no difference. You are inside, you are part of it. The laregly subonsciously or even consciously percieved division of "human adventure" and the rest of nature/Universe is misconception. You are not OUTSIDE and some independant detached agent/observer. You are too an "active ingredient"..."
I am rational enough to give such substance-induced visions a reasonable doubt, but the psychological impact remains.
This medicine has definitely a potential of curing depression and suicidal tendencies... But a knowledgable and trained "therapist" should be present and mental/psychological/spiritual preparation should be made, so you enter the experience with the right mind-set and supportive surroundings.
--- End quote ---
A.H, remember this discussion we had on the Books & Spiritual teachings - education or exploitation thread?
--- Quote from: bls926 on April 08, 2008, 06:38:31 pm ---
--- Quote from: A.H. ---But that is what I also think about - forms of rituals and spiritual practices that cannot be transfered, but the ideas - like, what is the concept of purifying yourself before going to hunt (board meeting, lecture, exam, performing concert, etc.) or what is the meaning of animal sacrifice - how did your culture understand and use it, etc. can be shared as concepts of knowledge. What are the ideas and methods of communicating with ancestors, spirits - symbolic, literal, mystical or just ritual and ceremonial? Things like that. Maybe I am too far out with this - but sort of rethinking or uniting your authentic knowledge with contemporary analysis and philosophy... Maybe this worlds can't coexist, I don't know... But why leave that to superficial new-agers if you could write it down in a meaningful way - that was my premise somehow...
--- End quote ---
I don't think you can separate the "idea" of spirituality from the "form". Even while saying you're only interested in the "idea", you talk about "methods of communicating with ancestors, spirits".
Spirituality cannot be understood as "concepts of knowledge".
--- End quote ---
Your reply
--- Quote from: A.H. on April 09, 2008, 09:53:55 am ---
--- Quote from: bls926 on April 08, 2008, 06:38:31 pm ---I don't think you can separate the "idea" of spirituality from the "form". Even while saying you're only interested in the "idea", you talk about "methods of communicating with ancestors, spirits".
Spirituality cannot be understood as "concepts of knowledge".
--- End quote ---
But spirituality is (in books at least) presented as concepts of knowledge.
You can write a "manual" like self-help section does or you can write an in depth research or presentation - possibly in a clear way (if it is intended for global use) that other cultures can understand it. I am not saying that your people must do it, but I don't think it is wrong or bad if it is done properly and that it actually might be good.
"Methods" were thrown in too easy - you can read from the context that I am not interested in knowing "how to call spirits", but what exactly does this action (if it does exist) represent as a specific spiritual practice and I only used it as a quick example of something that can be presented "sensational" or that could also be explained more authentically... and preferably also explain it through some analogy in other cultural systems.
What I meant is books like this (but on specific aspects of NA indigenous culture) - in depth - explained through philosophical language:
http://www.routledge.com/books/Buddhist-Phenomenology-isbn9780700711864
and a review of this book that gives some idea of the way of presentation used in it, that I think might me good and applicable also for presenting NA indigenous spirituality in books:
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=222281062535348
But it would be good to be written by your people not just "white" researchers or in cooperation. Just don't leave those topics to new-agers or some of your own people who might want to earn a quick buck with writing exciting pseudo biographical fairy-tales... that is my thinking about that. And my interest.
--- End quote ---
Where'd that intellectual knowledge premise go? The idea of spirituality and not the form? What about the concepts of knowledge and not the actual practice of spirituality?
A.H.:
Hey, what are you so upset about? I would be more than willing to explain this in PM - but this post of yours took the whole thing away from the topic and focused on me personally, which was not my intent..
I will PM you. And you can erase this - because it is staining this topic - I am not embarrased or don't see contradiction - but this is taking it too off topic...
Just this:
There is no "form" in the direct experience - faking, mimicking or even selling some ayahuasca ritual would be that, but the simple proper and respectful use of the medicine itself is "trans-cultural" and "trans-personal" - meaning it is percieved as coming outside your thought or mind, but it speaks in your culture-specific language to you. It really works as a medicine and it could help many people in different cultures I guess.
bls926:
--- Quote from: A.H. on May 15, 2008, 07:48:14 pm ---Hey, what are you so upset about? I would be more than willing to explain this in PM - but this post of yours took the whole thing away from the topic and focused on me personally, which was not my intent..
I will PM you. And you can erase this - because it is staining this topic - I am not embarrased or don't see contradiction - but this is taking it too off topic...
Just this:
There is no "form" in the direct experience - faking, mimicking or even selling some ayahuasca ritual would be that, but the simple proper and respectful use of the medicine itself is "trans-cultural" and "trans-personal" - meaning it is percieved as coming outside your thought or mind, but it speaks in your culture-specific language to you. It really works as a medicine and it could help many people in different cultures I guess.
--- End quote ---
Got your PM, read it, and I'm not erasing my previous post. You just don't get it, do you? My post did not take this thread off topic. I know Earth well enough to know she was not endorsing the use of Ayahuasca by the masses when she started this thread. It's already been noted that Truenos has been accused of being a fraud. He's selling the drink and the ceremony to people who have no business messing with it. Ayahuasca is used by the people of Central and South America in their ceremonies. What other use should be made of it? You have taken it out of it's rightful place and used it as a psychotropic. How are you any better than Truenos? Just because you didn't do a fake ritual before you drank it, doesn't make it right. This is not our medicine.
A.H.:
Ok, fair enough. I will probably never get it in the way you mean it... I understand your position, but I disagree.
Heck, as a musician I even support Creative Commons concept of copyright... so the concept "my medicine, your medicine" is lost with me... I understand why watering down and pretending to be what you are not is bad. But why using something that can be so helpful is bad - this is something I can't understand the way you want, sorry.
I think there are fair ways and that some things can be shared. The "concept" is outside - there is no going back, now it is up to everyone involved if this will be fair, knowledgable or abuse and dangerous application...
best
frederica:
Earth put that up as information. The general fad is that it ihas become an "thing to do" in California aside from going to South America. There have been incidents and even deaths from this misuse. It's not meant for experimentation. There are several threads concerning this on the forum. You probably need to check them out.
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