NAFPS Forum
General => Frauds => Topic started by: kgirl_7 on September 07, 2005, 07:39:20 pm
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I just came across this website http://ghostchild.com and from the outside it seemed like a pretty decent website dealing with indigenous issues except delving deeper I found this statement from a person claiming to be chief of the Anishnabe Nation:
"Clarification From Kaneekaneet
on 2005/9/4 1:35:29 (71 reads)
The following is the full text of a statement by Kaneekaneet:
September 3, 2005
To Those It May Concern;
I am Kitche O-Stew Kanee Kanagoshick Okimowcon KaneeKaneet. I am the Seventh Generation Traditional Inherent Head Chief of the Anishinabe Nations of the Great Turtle Island as my Grandfathers. I am a “Pipe Carrier??? I now possess “Four Sacred Pipes???. I am also the Head Chief of the League of Indian Nations of North America (Canada). I signed the membership cards of the league. I am further recognized by the United Indian Nations of the Great Turtle Island (United Nations).
I do not know how to speak my traditional language because my grandparents and parents were in residential school, but I am learning a little as each day passes through the patience of the elder pipe carriers. They say the language; I have to learn is the ceremonial Soto or High Soto.
As of my title, this is how they say I have to pronounce it. Kitche, means grand or great. O-Stew, means biggest, Kaneekanagoshick, means head, Okimowcon, means chief. KakaneKaneet, name I was born with, Kakaneet, means the leader, the one that always walks first, or tobacco, because the Traditional Indian, always uses the tobacco first in everything they do.
I am the son of Thunderbird Keeper [Gordon Johns Agecoutay] who was the son of [ Albert Johns Agecoutay] (Indian Name unknown at this time) who was the son of Okimowcon Antapay [Henry Johns Agecoutay] he received his title from his brother Okimowcon Muscowpetung who received his titled from Kitche O-Stew KaKaneekagoshik Okimowcon Chee-ee-Kuk (The Worthy One, the giver of all good), and identified by Queen Victoria as her brother in the letter of 1834 to King Chief of Canada. Reaffirming the bargain of 1665."....
You can read the full statement on the website.http://ghostchild.com/news+article.storyid+47.htm
I think he's been arrested in Canada for growing marijuana or possessing it or something. Anyway, his statement seems kinda...new-agey.
Anyway he has a website: http://anishinabe.org and if you click on the link "Adoption Program" and scroll down you can see that you can be adopted into the Anishinabe for a mere $20,500!!
Ok now that I look more at the site, the more I'm thinking this guy is a real fraud. I don't know if he's really Anishnaabe or not though.
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Ghostchild.com seems to be rather benign, but the entry by "KaNeeKaNeet" and anishinabe.org appear to be more interested in pot smoking than native Anishinaabe traditions.
I've nothing against pot or its use in ceremony by those whose traditions include it...but I don't think marijuana (at least, the kind that does anything when you smoke it) existed anywhere within the traditional range of the Anishinaabeg until it was brought up there in post-Columbus times.
The adoption scheme and "investment fund" mentioned on anishinabe.org are also highly suspect.
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Hi Scott. I agree they're not in the same class of usual frauds we look at. But there's all kinds of weirdness going on that's more at the fringe of the fringe of politics. Agecourtay reminds me of the would be Cherokee "Oukah", someone whose ancestor was made a chief/emperor/sovereign by the British and now is making all kinds of elbaroate claims. Gotta love it on one level though. Who else would have the gall to claim Canada is not a nation and just exists to be a servant for NDNs?
Agecourtay seems to mostly be a front man. The site's real owners. Don't those photos just inspire confidence? And the text just cries out for satire.
http://ghostchild.com/wfchannel+index.pagenum+8.htm
"40 year old disabled single father of two living in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Ogimowcon Nepa Ka Nee Pa Wit has, to put it mildly, lived a long hard life. At the age of six he was labelled retarded by doctors, at age 12 he was living on the streets, then he lived in several foster homes where we has terribly abused -- he eventually went back to the streets. When he was eighteen, Moon met a well-known psychologist that took him in and convinced him to go to Chedoke-Mcmaster's Cool School program; where he and 11 others were socially experimented on, and studied. Since then there has been an endless stream of social and political injustice tossed at him, from all levels of government."
And get this:
"everywhere he turns, he is abused and taken advantage of: Professors, Doctors, Social Workers, MP's, Chiropractors, the MMF, the AFN, disability groups, Lawyers....
The picture shown here, is of Moon holding a Pipe he carved a few years ago. Moon has been carving for over 20 years now....Many of the Pipes Moon has carved are treated as he has been. Many have been stolen, broken, and treated terribly. Moon told me to say here that he forgives those who were disrespectful."
Break out the violins. I suspect his pipes were mostly broken by people who were irritated by the guy.
And his partner. Cry me a river.
"Ahni has not had much life experience. He was an activist for several years, but stopped once he realized how counter-productive it was; that there had to be a better way to get things done. After this, many health problems arose from being malnourished and hormonally imbalanced. Ahni then turned to himself: to move forward from where his family, friends and all of society left him to emotionally, spiritually, and physically rot."
They both seem both incredibly naive and obsessed at the same time. Notice the causes they champion and how they go about it. Thinking Agecourtay being ticketed for growing pot is "High Treason"?
Their forums are something else, with names like moonchild. Nobody is named Bob or Mary.
A lot of the siet is also taken up with the cause of the "Moors". These are the same people the Nation of Islam started off as part of, the "Moorish Science" movement. It includes everyone from thre Nuwaubians and Washi taws to people within the militia movements.
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Hello. I just thought if people are going to sit around and judge people and make all sorts of assumptions... and petty remarks about me... I would step in. First of all, the comment about the Moors:...Actually, I'll pass this on to the Moor that runs that forum and let him speak for himself.
Second, your comment about being Naive and obsessed:If you call two disabled and poor people who are doing everything they can with next to nothing to effect mutually beneficial lasting change in a meaningful way: naive and obssesed, then yes, I guess we are...
Next, I wrote that about page. I admit, I actually had no idea what to write, so I tried to represent who we are and what we've been through. Would you prefer a CV, or a list of accomplishments? Well, if the point was to brag and enfranchise ourselves, then maybe, but we are just people, not unlike you or anyone else, and yes we're kinda messed up. Modern civilization has this funny habit of doing that to people.
As for the Pipe comment. I'm going to assume you don't know much about Pipes, otherwise you would not speak about a Pipe or someone breaking them so lightly. Pipes are not created for you to mock and insult the Pipe or the one who brought it forth. The fact is the Pipes are broken because the People who ask for or need the Pipes are not taught the Ways of the Pipe.. they toss 'em in the back of the truck disrespecfully, let them just sit around, or get drunk and bring them into a ceremony, thus breaking the Trust the Pipe requires from us... and the Pipes were stolen and sold at an absurd price to someone else I might add, because the person had little respect for something as Sacred as the Truth, which is what Pipe represents.
As for all the stuff about Kaneekaneet, and the situation with the Marijuana, I do agree with some of what's been said here. For instance the get adopted thing. I've been asking for that to be removed for a long time... but Kaneekaneet did not do that, a "lawyer" named Pat (don't know his last name) from toronto did that and a bunch of other silly things too, which I won't get into here, to which I add he's since left and that particular matter will be dealt with once this RCMP stuff is resolved.
But that he is a front? You weren't really clear about that, a front for what? (noting Kaneekaneet came to us last year, the site's been running for 3 years now...)
Yes, what Kaneekaneet says are "claims," but instead of assuming and categorizing, why don't you investigate first. I invite you to find a way to contact Wolverine (the elder that was involved in Gustafsen Lake) he'd be more than willing to confirm these "claims." Actually we found out about two Months ago that shortly, Wolverine will be going to meet Kaneekanet to give him something from Chief Seattle at the Request of the Women from the West. Also, the reason Marijuana is being addressed, is because he and 25 of his family members were just arrested for marijuana posession. He is in jail as I write. See http://ghostchild.com/newbb+viewtopic.topic_id+100+forum+4.htm for more info.
As for Canada not being a Nation... I'll just say, Canada is not a legal Nation. It was founded fraudulently (It's a legal fact that is well known. If you do some heavy reading you will see it) on genocide, and maintained itself at the expense of our women and childern, complete with Legislation to confirm it (take a look at the library on the site)... It replaced the Sovereingty of Indigneous People with "Indian Soveriegnty," reducing us to having the authority of a municipality... it has literally switched the roles of Indigenous Nations on their Land to a Foreign Government on someone elses land. And with that in mind, we see what you are talking about educatedindian, that the Indigneous People are subordinate to Canada, yes?
Lastly, If I seem defensive or offended, it is because I am. Not at anyone or anything here though but the person I'm addressing this message to, educatedindian. Nonetheless I respect your words just as anyone elses. I just ask that you please be more thurough before you start accusing and assuming... and if you want to actually serve the people with the work that you do here, as I've said to many others in the past, why don't you also take some time to address the Real Frauds that're around us. I mean, the Canadian Government participated in killing 50,000 Indigenous kids in Canada, they have a law that legalized sexually sterilizing women, and you're going to attack us?
Respecftully, There is nothing plastic about us. We are very much real.
Ahniwanika (John Schertow)
3-601 William Ave
Winnipeg, MB
R3A 0K1
Canada
1-204-775-6554
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G'Day everyone,
I am one of the members of Ghostchild, and have come here to see what you had to say. I went and read the objectives of your site and I think I agree with all of them, and also cannot see how in principle Ghostchild is against them.
II live in Australia, and here in the Northern NSW area where I live there are some very very irritating Plastic Shamans and wild & colourful New Age freaks. When Osho's cult fell down, they brought all the money and cultishness here. There are people who will charge hundreds of dollars for a 'Native Wisdom" workshop -- I have been meaning to take a copy of the Lakota Declaration of war against cultural exploiters around to some of the really flagrant folks, those selling "dreamcatchers" for rearview mirrors which have been made in Taiwan type thing, but that might be too confrontational an approach.
But there are also plenty of Native Bundjalung People here too, plenty good Celts, good Native or part Native people from the US, Africa, Canada, South America and Asia, all quietly getting on with their authentic spiritual practices. I feel you may be missing the folks at Ghostchild of this ilk.
One problem is that we ARE at the site attempting to express concepts which come out in English in ways which the New Age movement has made easy to despise. But if you look behind the way things are said (and the current pot smoking thread which got your attention) you will see members are involved outside the site on real life issues such as anti-uranium mining campaigning, conservation and ecological restoration, water conservation, the Canadian Indian Residential School survivors campaign, alternatives to Casinos for sustainable tribal income on reservation lands, international human rights abuses, expansion of multinationals into new Tribal territories world-wide, education, health, housing and whether we should or should not be at war in Iraq (or anywhere else). Also it is a place where people from different countries and cultures learn about each other, without being filtered by news editors or political agendas of our governments.
As to the whole "canada is a legal fiction", well it is. Just as the "United Kingdom" is a fiction on every level. it is a construct made by a process of battles and negotiations by people who had no clear and genuine jurisdiction over the people and country they drew lines on. The Colonial side of the treaty bargains has not been adhered to, and furthermore there has been a systematic attempt to disempower and fragment Native tribes in order to have access to the natural resources on their land -- Black Hills of Dakota -- need I say more?
Further, if one studies the basis of British law, which is the foundation of Canada (or the Us or Australia), one disovers that it is also full of holes, and never arose from the Native culture of the Island we got it from. have a read of the Magna carta some time, and remember that in 1066, the whole Welsh-Gaelic-Anglo-Saxon-Jutish-Danish-Celtic upper strata of British society was pretty much assassinated, and replaced with Normans (their ancestors were the tribe known as the Franks, a warlike patriarchal bunch, if you read the history anyway. I've just got a copy of Caesars conquest of gaul, so my opinion of the Normans might change after that, its based only on what I've learned so far). The Brehon Laws of Ireland are also very much worth reading, it was the English who threw them out finally in the 1500s. But the Brehon laws pre-dated Chrstianity, and go a long way toward explaining why the Irish are still so different to the English.
While I think it unlikely this academic discovery that Canada (and Australia) do not really exist in law will make our governments pack up their toys and go home, it is a liberating perspective from which to consider such topics as reconciliation between peoples, the restoration of native culture and religion, and also the changing of Western society's current ecologically destructive course for something a little less frightening and more likely to survive for seven generations and longer.
It also makes one aware that an unpleasant reality does hold within itself certain fundamental incongruities which will inevitably precipitate change. A Philosophical fulcrum, if you like.
I hope to read more at your site of the different things you all think, as I do think I need to arm my mind better to do something about the plastics here, if only to know what to say more clearly.
Best wishes from Mummulgum NSW
Willow Aliento
(yes, that really is my real legal name. And the one I work under, so I have to live by every word I post. (oh yes, and that's Mrs, lots of people seem to assume I'm a bloke. I don't know why that is.)
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I'm still trying to figure out how he became a chief. He claims heritity, but how can that be when we didn't have hereditary chiefs? In which case do you realize how many hereditary chiefs have.....heck considering my Great (X5) Grandfather Chief Pisqua had 6 wives and 36 children, pretty much every band member would be able to claim they were a hereditary chief.
The scary part of all of this is he's claiming to speak for all of us, and with the stuff he's spouting he's just playing right into the hands of rednecks. By claiming that the laws don't apply on reserve because the government has not upheld the treaties is BS. I keep thinking that two wrongs don't make a right. When you listen to the Elders when you research the spirit and intent of the treaties, you know that because they were signed in the presence of the pipe they became a sacred covenent and the word of our ancestors is morally and spiritually binding. We agreed to uphold the laws of the Queen and that is that, we cannot in good conscience break that, at least not without dishonoring those who have gone before.
If he really was a chief he would not be doing these things, if he truely followed the teachings of our ancestors he wouldn't be bragging the way he is.
I feel sorry for the people he has tricked, but I also feel sorry for him. Why? Because he believes what he says, that's the saddest thing of all.
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Agecourtay reminds me of the would be Cherokee "Oukah", someone whose ancestor was made a chief/emperor/sovereign by the British and now is making all kinds of elbaroate claims.
Educated,
Do not read my words as if they were a sentence... but just as a clarification. And as a n offer to you. Please, think on them.
I'm not an indian. I'm not trying to be it.
My name's DreamwalkerAwake, and this is the name that Okimowcon gived me, so this is my Name. It fits exactly with what I do, with what's my job, with what's my responsability in this world, with what I am.
Please, read my words because they are yours, not mine. It is just what you are ought to understand, so I'll say loud in your ears what your mouth is loud asking.
And remember that, as these images seen in a dream and these words listened in a dream, you can or cannot remember it for long.
A Chief is not made, nor ellected. He is chosen (by the forces he moves on). Then, People just recognize Him.
As a Wicasa Wakan is.
Do you really believes that man can choose what heavens are like to do? to Whom do you believe that a Chief faces when asks for a decission? to Whom faces a Wicasa Wakan?
Earth is given by small dots of Light. We are here just to care it.
My name's DreamWalkerAwake and I invite you to seat near our Fire to share, to learn from you, to learn from us. I'm not an Indian, I'm a Catalan. Would you like to visit us at www.ghostchild.com? or at www.freecatalonia.ghostchild.com ? you'll be welcome. It depends on you to carry on the Light that was given to you as a Gift.
DreamWalkerAwake
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John:
Really, what do you expect when your self description on your site is a paragraph begging for people to pity you? I don't generally introduce myself by asking others to feel sorry for me. The kind of people that will be attracted to you will be Nuagers who want a token show of being involved in causes, and that seems to be an awful lot of who makes up who comes to your forums.
I say none of this to be mean but to point out you need to make hard headed and much more practical choices if you want to get anything achieved and not simply make yourselves feel better. If you claim to be trying to help indigenous peoples achieve sovereignty, you're choosing so many ways guaranteed to make that noble goal HARDER. And I don't just mean your intros begging for pity. (Or your partner looking like a rather goofy Hindu guru in his photo.)
1) "Ghost child" is itself a term taken straight from the Nuage movement. In the US the main proponents of the ghost child bit are white wannabes trying to demand they be accepted into tribes. GC is mostly associated with Robert Franzone, an Italian American fraud from New Jersey who calls himself Ghostwolf and has pulled off more Nuage scams than just about any other fraud.
2) The whole association with the "Moors" will discredit you in the eyes of almost anyone with critical thinking skills. So called Moorish Science has a) a long history of association with the Far Right Wing (with occasional pitches to those on the fringes of the political Left)
b) a long history of using crackpot pseudo history (including very ridiculous and offensive claims about Native oral traditions, such as claiming Cherokees were Muslims)
c) and a history of deep and intense racism, esp lately towards Natives. The Nuwaubians and Wash itaws are Black Supremacists, as well as dangerous cults and heavily armed Far Right militias. To them both you and I are "casino Indians". They claim Native people are "Chinese Olmecs", that the true Natives of the Americas are Africans while Natives are Blacks who made the mistake of intermarrying with Asians and whites and also collaborators with Evil Whites.
*This* is who you choose to devote much of your site to? What were you thinking?
http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/moorish_science_temple_of_america/
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=41
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=341
4) The Moors seem to have influenced a lot of dubious legal strategies your site promotes. Come on, do you seriously think arguing Canada is not a legal nation will make it shrivel up and go away? All that will do is make most people laugh. I certainly don't defend Canada's actions, but please, be practical. All your arguments on this will do is make most people who view them laugh when they think about Native sovereignty activists, and I think we both agree that's the last thing we want.
And as for the pipes, sorry, he may carve pretty pipes, but they are NOT sacred pipes. There are far too many Nuagers and other white wannabes out there already thinking they have a sacred pipe when really it's just a substitute for a cigarette filter. Pipes are not automatically sacred, they must *become* sacred, and your partner claiming he has the ability to do that is making a dubiousclaim at best, or is being downright offensive and pretentious at worst. Those who damage them may break pretty objects, but they are not sacred objects by any means except his wishful thinking.
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Willow:
I'm very glad to see you here. I'd be happy to have you here as a regular guest or contributor. We badly need someone in Australia who can keep us in touch with what's going on there. And you being willing to take on the issue of the plastics is something we cheer.
For me the main saving grace (almost the only one) is the section on your peoples struggles. As you say, some of the people there do good work outside of the site. But what about what's going on within it? An awful lot of Nuage pretensions and pseudo-philosophical ramblings, a whole huge section on the Moors and their pseudo history and their racism and Far Right fanaticism, and dubious legal arguments.
I don't find the "Canada is a fiction" argument liberating at all. It's a huge distraction, one likely to harm Native sovereignty, even turn it into a joke for most people. They certainly seem to have been influenced by the Moors. Here in the US the Moors go around declaring themelves (and by that I mean each individual person) to be a sovereign nation. They issue drivers licences and passports and phony legal documents, writs claiming one piece of nonsense after another, usually to try and get out of debt or con people out of money or intimidate the ones who disagree with people. All of this alienates people and recruits more anti Indian bigots. It sows confusion and harms just about every Indian cause out there.
If your or anyone else from ghostchild wants to work with us, I'm glad to see it. We're always happy to work with anyone with a good heart who can help. But I just don't see much value in most of the site as it is now.
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DWA:
Sorry, but I won't call you by your Nuage/faux Indian name. First, it's obviously not an Indian name at all, it's one of those very silly Nuage imitations of an Indian name. It's not as silly as "Crystal Butterfly Rainbow Woman" but it's darn close, and even more pretentious. Just as important, he had no right to give you that name. Indian names aren't party favors.
Read Wanbdi's post for what's wrong with Agecourtay's claim to be a chief.
What you said...oh my. I'm trying hard not to laugh, but it's not easy.
"My name's DreamwalkerAwake....It fits exactly with what I do, with what's my job, with what's my responsability in this world, with what I am."
So do you have a brother named Sleepwalker Awake? Must be dangerous when he's driving...
"Please, read my words because they are yours, not mine."
There is noooooo way I'm taking any responsibility for the dribble you're spouting.
"It is just what you are ought to understand, so I'll say loud in your ears what your mouth is loud asking."
Hey, didn't your mama ever tell you shouting is rude?
"And remember that, as these images seen in a dream and these words listened in a dream, you can or cannot remember it for long."
No wonder you defend Agecourtay. That's some pwerful stuff you've been smoking.
"A Chief is not made, nor ellected. He is chosen (by the forces he moves on). Then, People just recognize Him."
That's reel, reel spirchul, but unfortunately dead wrong. Nobody except the British ever recognized Agecourtay's ancestor as a chief. And as best I can tell, nobody but some Nuage twinkies think Agecourtay is a chief now.
"Do you really believes that man can choose what heavens are like to do?"
"Heavens are like to do"?
I certainly think that man can choose to speak English like everyone else does, instead of doing a bad Lord of the Rings impression.
"to Whom do you believe that a Chief faces when asks for a decission? to Whom faces a Wicasa Wakan?"
Ohboy, more bad Tolkien-wannabe writing.
Cheer-Up-Sleepy-Dreamer, Agecourtay isn't facing much of anything, including reality.
"Earth is given by small dots of Light. We are here just to care it."
"Small dots of light"? OK, that's enough acid for you.
"My name's DreamWalkerAwake and I invite you to seat near our Fire to share, to learn from you, to learn from us."
I can find out about drug use at any rave, thanks.
"I'm not an Indian, I'm a Catalan."
Then quit trying to talk like Tolkien writing a Lone Ranger episode.
"It depends on you to carry on the Light that was given to you as a Gift."
Reel, reel spirchul of you.
You know, one use of a torch is to burn things down.
All you've done is convince me more than ever that ghostchild.com is made up of Nuagers wasting time.
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Yoda speak,Al, DWA speaks Yoda-speak.
As for being Catalan, I am sad that DWA would rather play Indian than be a Catalan. I have a friend from there. She shared some of her rich heritage with me. She told me of how Franco repressed their language and culture. And then DWA wants to play Indian rather than be a part of his/her own heritage. :(
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Dear EducatedIndian,
that above which you have said to my cousin DreamWalkerAwake might pass as instructive teasing in some necks o the woods, but to my ears falls right into the category of stuff my dear Irish/Aboriginal grandma used to call rude.
Why should a Celtic and Spanish speaking Catalan use English like you expect? How many languages can you write fluently and with impeccable grammar in? My cousin writes fluently in three at least. He is also a poet, which most Cultures respect.
While I thank you for welcoming me here above this, it disturbs me to hear how you address my friend and relative, and the long bow you draw to fire assumptions at the whole site we belong to. ah well, "ya get that", as we say around here. its part of what makes life entertaining -- diversity, discussion, debate and hopefully, at some stage, we'll even all manage some degree of tolerance of each other regardless of how we express our thoughts too.
I'm not sure I'll be back, but I did get a lot out of what I had read here today. At least I know when I find myself irritated by some grinning Byronian goon, there are worse bad flakes out there in the world likesome of the people you've posted about. But Ghostchild, we are not like those folks. noone makes a dime, and noone ever tried to. we've got more urgent things to do than sit around being urugs all day. the world's in a bit of a state, for example.
My best wishes to you all
Willow
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ok i started this thread, can i ask one question?
Why do people think Native American speak like that, all high and mighty, and have names like Laughing Spirit Man and SpiritWolf, and Crystal Dreamseeker? I got a regular ole name, as do all my Native friends, I'd tell you how they speak, except i don't know if this board allows curses hahaha. And we also don't have "Messiah Syndrome", each one of us is doing our own part in our own Native communities, but we don't think we're saviors or anything. Geez. This is too much anyway, lemme come back to this topic later. I need to clear my head.
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ok i started this thread, can i ask one question?
Why do people think Native American speak like that, all high and mighty, and have names like Laughing Spirit Man and SpiritWolf, and Crystal Dreamseeker? I got a regular ole name, as do all my Native friends, I'd tell you how they speak, except i don't know if this board allows curses hahaha. ? And we also don't have "Messiah Syndrome", each one of us ? is doing our own part in our own Native communities, but we don't think we're saviors or anything. Geez. This is too much anyway, lemme come back to this topic later. I need to clear my head.
You need to clear your head ? LOL ? I agree... None of my Indian friends speak like this either. ? What does an "Anishinabe Chief" and group want with joining the OBOD ? ? ? Gosh, I read so much of this Tonto speak lately I start doing it and typing it! ? ? >ack< ? Someone slap me...
LindaR
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WHACK!! There, Linda, ya better now??
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Ok, gotta clear a few things up. EducatedIndian, thank you for speaking more respectfully.
First my name, Ahniwanika. This is a name I was given in a Dream. I hate the name John, it is unoriginal, so Christian. Ahniwanika is not a name a chose, but it is one I accept.
As For DreamWalker, I don't where you get that he's a wannabee indian? You don't even know what he does in his life.. he actually works his butt off for his people, Who cares that he's taken an interest in the Indigneous People in the West? Or that he's a person who walks what he dreams. If you don't like his english, try reading catalan instead...
As for the names? There is nothing wrong with having names that have real meaning in real life.
I realize we have in the past attracted newage types, that is, people who are so disastified or unfullfilled from the sense-based vaccums of Empire and all archaic Religions that they create what they can to have and know something beyond the mundane, and have not been invested in or taught to know the details of reality and what it offers; I for one would not attack them for that, as I did the same thing once, only I chose to look within myself and I refused to subscribe to any cliche, etc. Though when I encouter people talking newage stuff, I do not hesitate addressing that stuff respectfully and responsibly.
You no doubt saw in the about why we chose the name GhostChild. It dosn't matter if it somehow associates to GhostWolf, it also associates to GhostDance, which is more apt. The only time we ever talk about new age things is when someone starts calling us newagers, or Cyber NDNS (I #$%& hate that), else it's law, politics, news, issues, etc. but that isn't happening much these days.
As for the pity me thing, as I said I just didn't know what else to write. Eventually I'll change it.
And now for the Moors? Moorish Science encapsulating the moors is no different than the Nazis encapsulating white people. Wait a second... yeah, that's right LOL, or me encapsulating all Gay People. Let's not forget Moors have been around for quite a while now, 100's of years (or thousands) Should we ask the DHS to add all Moors to the list because of a few extremists? Or disassociate from all Christians because there are so many fanatics? Of course not. The one that runs that forum is not an extremist, but a Moor who brings a very "different" view on Islam and the Muslim World, and I haven't seen any hate or talk of violence on that forum.
I understand what you mean about making things harder, but consider for a moment the issues we are addressing, the whole reason for the site? I don't mind if people laugh about the fiction thing, because just as many mouths drop to the ground, and just as many tuck tails and run once they fully realize what's been said. What matters is those who need to know do: Chomsky knows it, So does Zinn, so do the oneidasfordemocracy, so does churchill, splittingthesky, arundhati roy, michael albert, shiva, most anarchists, the WSF (world social forum) and many many others. That stuff can be argued ad nauseam, but a fact will always be a fact. Anyways, this isn't really the place to talk politics, so I'll stop there.
About Kaneekaneet? I don't see where he is claiming to speak for everyone? Wanbdi, where is he doing this, please? As for heredity, from what I know, Kaneekaneet's ancestor was chosen to represent the Anishinabe (the People) around the time of the Royal Proclamation, by those joined in the Turtle Island government that existed from approx. 1660 to 1880, and then was dismantled for whatever reason; many years later came the Indian Brotherhood, which bore th AFN, whom still call themselves the "Indian Brotherhood" (how's that for New Age?) And Kaneekaneet was chosen by Elders from All in the family to be the "Best Man". And that's pretty much all I know.
EducatedIndian, you may not see how it can be empowering to be aware of the fact that Empire is nothing more than an institution made by Men who don't mind killing kids or women, who have no real power other than that found in totalitarianism, but pretty much every indigneous Nation in the world has (except those in Canada and America) and they are slowly moving forward on their own the exact premise I've shared on the site regarding "the twofold path to peace." So it don't matter if we attract newagers, afterall they're people too. We also attract lawyers, professors, government folks, artists, musicians, thinktanks, and various others.
Cheers Willow for your words.
Peace. Ahniwanika
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educated, my name it is not an indian name and does not try to be. ? Which kind of superb ambition have you in mind? why do you think that ? only the Indians have symbolic names?
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Debbie, educated,...
Although I know the dates of your defeats, I know the name of your warriors, of our Chiefs, I know your history.
Do you realize why I know your history? because our Peoples have parallel history, parallel struggle, parallel spirituality.
Is it so strange that I could be interested in your history, language, culture?
Are we not able to learn from each other?
Are we not the blood descendants of the same RH- tribe?
You are insulting me when saying that I'm a wannabee. I'm not a wasichu. Probably you are? ? You are offering me a deplorable treatment. You are not permitted to do it.
I'm sure you're not interested in to know better who the catalan Nation is, nor who I am.
Talking to you with loud voice... to you better understand Who we are and wich are our Universal Rights.
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John:
Yes, I'm going to continue to call you John. In every tradition I've ever seen, including Mohawk, you don't just up and give yourself what you claim is your Indian name. It has to be given by others who have that right and duty. In most traditions that means elders, though in some traditions it has to be warriors.
I call myself Al, as does just about everybody in here. I don't make up an Apache name for myself, that'd be wrong and an offense to my ancestors. People in NAFPS call each other Debbie, Trish, as well as Piya and Wanbdi. We don't go around giving "Indian" names to our non Indian members either, certainly nothing as pompous as Cheer-Up-Sleepy-Dreamer's name.
I'm glad if at least in here you're resorting to less of the whining and self pity than what you did by crying in that thread and wailing away about being "attacked." ? Do you see the huge contradictions between arguing for Native sovereignty, which by definition must come from strength, and being so frail that both mild jokes and constructive criticism sends you into fits?
For someone who claims having the Nuagers around doesn't matter, you've managed to show just the opposite. For you personally, you imitate their practices of giving themselves faux Indian names, and you use their surreal and even Orwellian language, such as claiming criticism equals "attacks." That's almost as ridiculous as the fool on that thread claiming we were "Nazis".
About Agecourtay, he's represented as not just a chief but THE Chief of his people, over and over. And a number of your posters claim to prosecute him for pot growing is "high treason." I'm no believer in the Drug Wars, but he deserves no more attention than any other victim of them. In fact, less, since his only claim is that the British appointed his ancestor "chief".
Ghostchild doesn't have squat to do with the Ghostdance. It's a Nuage wannabe claim that THEY are the Indians now and tribes need to let them join (or even in some cases need to FOLLOW what they say). The fact remains that having that name for your site associates it with Franzone. At the least you should think about having a disclaimer distancing youself from him.
Apparently you didn't bother to read the links. Moorish Science was deeply racist FROM THE START and continues to be. It's main ideological brothers are the Nation of Islam, which came from it, and the militia movements which work alongside it. Most reading your site will associate it with Moorish Science whether you want them to or not. Again, you'd be helping yourself to put a disclaimer distancing your site from them.
You and willow's excuses for DWA are pretty lame. That a Mohawk would defend a ? wannabe talking like a stereotype of Indians can't be defended.
DWA obviously speaks fairly good English, he just chooses to talk like Tolkien writing a Lone Ranger episode. It's harder to imitate Tontospeak or Yodaspeak like he does than it is to speak conversational English. He obviously goes to a great deal of effort to do that, and it's a shame that a Catalan can't be content to BE Catalan. Even his knowledge of his own people is questionable since he's a member of OBOD, a faux-Druid group that has a faux version of Druid history.
There is another point to bring up. You link to Saq Be, which poses as an activist group helping Mayans. Saq Be is led by a Nuage fraud named Carlos Barrios. There are threads on him here and at the yahoo group Shaman Debunk.
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Willow and DWA/Pere Cabra:
You certainly are humorless and ultrasensitive. ("Oh my, a joke! I'm being persecuted!") Apparently you can't take jokes designed to make someone realize just how foolish they're being. Sheesh, those mild jibes make you both fall to pieces?
And if DWA/Pere Cabra is a poet, he obviously is supposed to be able to use words. So your excuses fall flat.
They fall even flatter since Pere threw out the next two posts without any of the Tontospeak. In fact he showed himself to be far more venomous and insulting than anyone in here has ever been. His childish ranting was removed.
I'm actually glad if you find parallels between Catalan and Native experience, DWA. I see them too, but I don't speak to you in a bad Zorro impression, do I?
And Willow, there's more than a little hypocrisy in your stance, in what you say in here and what you argued in the "attacked" thread. You find my mild jokes offensive, yet you think spiritual exploiters are no big deal? So much for your claim of willingness to help.
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Educated,
let me know who UAOD are.
I don't know.
About my language: my effort to speak in a way about your understanding me is a sign of respect towards you, even though since now you have not given me motives for making it.
That I use direct translations from my own language for expressing in yours what I have in mind should be a motive of interest, not of mockery.
We, the catalan people, never prejudge. We always concede ourselves a time before answering.
I also would like to invite you again to visit our site. Please follow the link below:
http://freecatalonia.ghostchild.com/index.php/board,19.0.html
It is a link to an Abya Yala/Turtle Island section in wich I try to explain to my community wich are your struggles and claims. Here you can find a thread called ·Declaration of War Against Exploiters of American Indian Spirituality", the "NATIVE AMERICAN WANNABE FAQ", another one called "WHAT DO THE INDlANS WANT?", and "STRANGERS ON THEIR ANCESTOR’S LAND" and so many others.
These are not my own written threads because, beeing not an indian, it is not my duty to talk about, just inform.
And now I would like to ask you to revisite Ghostchild.com, regardless of what youthink about Ka Nee Ka Net.
There you can find what it is a common interests community were people use to speak about their own communities struggle to find common speeches. Finally, we are all facing the same problems.
It is not in the Ghostchild interest to become "THE" indian site, although most members are, like you, blood mixed. Anyway, is a very serious site and a place were we all can share with respect.
It is my point of view that native peoples of the wolrd are facing commons problems due to the same lack of wisdom. Wich should be the individual paths or the community paths it is not my duty to judge... the same way that I don't judge your community even if you fall in a desert of mistakes. Life has learned me to not to give if I'm not asked to.
Nevertheless, my People and I are receptive people that will allways care of you if you need it and if you asked it for. NO matter who you are, no matter whar have you done, no matter wich is your path, nomatter wich are your struggles. If you ask it, you have it.
Now that I read more "comfortable" words from you, I would like to invite you and your board members to honor our ancestors tomorrow, the Catalan National Day, proclaming that we will never surrender to the oppression, that we will allways face those who want us dead, those who want us silent.
About my Yoda style: I do not renounce to this style of writing... if it even is a style. Let me ask you: do you really believes that all things can be told the same way, with the same words... we are not allways talking to the "same side of ourselves".
If you're an indian, if you have some blood mix inside you, you know perfectly what I mean.
(remember to explain to me who UAOD are).
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And... please, give native peoples a chance... don't give Bush a chance.
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A wasichu? LOL! That just shows your pan Indian ignorance. If you are following an Anish and a Mohawk, why would you use a Lakota term?? Me, I am not Lakota, but I am Indian, and I do not use Lakota words because that is pan-Indianism.
Oh,and the Druid bunch? It's on one of YOUR sites, so maybe you can explain it.
Oh, one more thing, I would rather have Dolors tell me about Catalan people because she is proud to be Catalan and not throwing around Indian words and acting like a twinkie.
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That just shows your pan Indian ignorance. If you are following an Anish and a Mohawk, why would you use a Lakota term??
Oh,and the Druid bunch? It's on one of YOUR sites, so maybe you can explain it.
Oh, one more thing, I would rather have Dolors tell me about Catalan people because she is proud to be Catalan and not throwing around Indian words and acting like a twinkie.
Debbie, small cousin,
wich is the reason to use a Lakhota or a Mohawk term when you're writting in a foreign language?
Are you so blind as you shows?
About Druids: be more respectful about our legacy or you will simply be banned out from LIFE board. You show an ignorant behavior.
I don't know WHO should be your OWN CREATED druid fraud.
About your friend, my cousin, Dolors: ask her about our site... if she's a true catalan she'll be proud of our work.
Kindy small cousin, be careful about the words you shot off your mouth... sometimes bullets turns back.
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Oh, please, use English or Catalans, but quit trying to use Lakoata words. You are NOT Lakota and most likely don't speak it. Do no co-opt it for it makes you look ignorant.
Banned from the board? LOL! I am not ON that board. But you just made yourself into a liar. You said you knew nothing about OBOD, and then you threaten to ban me from it. Hahahahahahahaha! Too damn funny. Good grief you are funny.
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Willow and DWA/Pere Cabra:
You certainly are humorless and ultrasensitive. ("Oh my, a joke! I'm being persecuted!") Apparently you can't take jokes designed to make someone realize just how foolish they're being. Sheesh, those mild jibes make you both fall to pieces?
And Willow, there's more than a little hypocrisy in your stance, in what you say in here and what you argued in the "attacked" thread. You find my mild jokes offensive, yet you think spiritual exploiters are no big deal? So much for your claim of willingness to help.
G'Day Al,
Guess the dry Aussie humour in my posts is escaping you then? Seems to me you've mixed me up with an academic feminist (yes, thats a joke).
And also you must have missed the two posts on the subject of fraud, referring folks to information which will give facts about it? Its not that I don't support what you do here, but the WAY you are doing it is not one I or some others are comfortable with.
Also, there is nothing hypocritical is not seeing this as the biggest most urgent issue there is, and nothing hypocritical in pointing out there's a whole heap of great big juicy fraud types that you seem to not be targetting, like the companies behind any of the products of these people. That's just how I see it, could be an Aussie thing. we tend to go for the biggest guy lol.
Also I am a member of the Australian Journalists union, which has some fairly strict laws about libel & slander. Thats one of the things I do object to here on principle, is the publishing your members do here of unverified & personal information about others which falls into that category. You are NOT the police, the CIA OR the IRS, your right to investigate people's private affairs is shaky at best, publishing leaves you wide open. Surely if NAFPS has a strong support base with the BIA, Elders, Chiefs, Medicine people & others in the Nations, there are better, more legal (and effective) way of tackling this. Get along to one of the workshops and refuse to pay and tell everyone there what's wrong with it, deliver the declarations against exploitation face to face to offending shops and prophets -- that's how I am going to tackle it around here anyway. face to face. it's the same approach we use here with mining and forestry or anyone else (such as the refugee detention centres, the Forbes 300 meeting, Dubya visiting). direct. face to face.
One thing that had occurred to me maybe you have all not understood about the people who go to these NAFPS is that they have been raised in a culture where people only truly value what they PAY for. They are simply not set up culturally to learn by observation and respectful listening to someone who has not formally asked a fee in a workshop or similar setting. Its like the way people will ask advice from all their wise friends about something, but not feel like they've actually heard anything useful until they've paid a tarot reader, astrologer or some other "professional" advice giver for their opinion. Folks are gullible, and western civilisation's advance is proof. (there is humour again in that statement BTW).
I for one don't feel persecuted by you folks, (after all, I do live in Australia where I have a life outside the internet (keep listening for that dry humour btw), but it did seem polite to check this out when Ahni brought it to our attention, and hey, unlike most folks you guys check out, we have had the guts to come forward and say G'day and introduce ourselves AND try and explain the things you have found worth laughing or howlin or screechin at.
it would be nice to think I could "dob in a crystal sniffer" here in your on-line version of a spiritual war-on-drugs, (there are some days that'd make me feel real good) and then watch their business crumble to be replaced by a society where people seek for their own authentic ancestral wisdom yada yada yada but I "don't think we're on the same page" as my highpowered clients put it, in HOW we'd like to see this come about.
Anyhow, this has been both instructive and interesting, and you have all at least motivated me to finally get the Lakota Declaration of War against cultural exploiters out to some of the worst of the plastics around these parts. We'll also have a good opportunity to raise this in discussions with locals next year, when the Canadian Residential Schools Survivors group is here.
I do wish you all the best in what you are doing, and if anyone has any on-ground information on mining in your area, especially names of companies doing projects on tribal lands and also special places (such as Black Mesa) or water catchments and wetlands, could you post it for me over at Jinta Jungu on the "what's happening in your neck of the woods" thread. I'm not terribly keen on hearing any details about involvement on the part of the Illuminati/Rosicrucians/KnightsTemplar or aliens. I can get that info in Byron Bay already lol.
Cheers to y'all (yes I DO have a right to use Kentucky speak lol)...and get off those boring high horses about lingo! horses are NOT native to Turtle Island tee hee.
All the best,
Willow
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Its not that I don't support what you do here, but the WAY you are doing it is not one I or some others are comfortable with.
To me it looks more like 'some others' are uncomfortable because they've been called on their twinkie behaviour.
...there's a whole heap of great big juicy fraud types that you seem to not be targetting, like the companies behind any of the products of these people. That's just how I see it, could be an Aussie thing. we tend to go for the biggest guy lol.
That'd take the heat off your small-potatoes friends, wouldn't it? Is their racist caricaturing of Indians somehow more acceptable to you than open-cast mining? How about naming these big juicy frauds we're not targetting?
I am a member of the Australian Journalists union, which has some fairly strict laws about libel & slander. Thats one of the things I do object to here on principle, is the publishing your members do here of unverified & personal information about others which falls into that category. You are NOT the police, the CIA OR the IRS, your right to investigate people's private affairs is shaky at best, publishing leaves you wide open.
You're a journalist, not a lawyer, though your apparent belief that the AJU passes laws which are binding on Indians doesn't say much for your journalistic skills. Could you verify your claim by showing us examples of unverified information we've published? If you want to help, rather than offering unasked-for advice, why not write and get published an exposé of William Two Feather (http://www.ecoactive.com/) who last we heard was in New South Wales. As you can see, gullible environmentalists in Australia have fallen for his spiel. There are lots of people here who'd be happy to co-operate with you on that.
Surely if NAFPS has a strong support base with the BIA, Elders, Chiefs, Medicine people & others in the Nations, there are better, more legal (and effective) way of tackling this. Get along to one of the workshops and refuse to pay and tell everyone there what's wrong with it, deliver the declarations against exploitation face to face to offending shops and prophets -- that's how I am going to tackle it around here anyway. face to face.
More unasked-for advice. We're already doing that; Indians have always confronted frauds face-to-face. A recent example. (http://newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=frauds;action=display;num=1124735250;start=)
One thing that had occurred to me maybe you have all not understood about the people who go to these NAFPS is that they have been raised in a culture where people only truly value what they PAY for. They are simply not set up culturally to learn by observation and respectful listening to someone who has not formally asked a fee in a workshop or similar setting.
That's both patronising and simplistic. Patronising because Indians already know how Western culture works. Look, here they are, on the internet. It's a simplistic statement because not every Western person values only money, by a long chalk. I'm English, living in England, and about as Western as you can get. I don't know anyone who fits the caricature you've drawn. Perhaps you should just speak for yourself.
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You can call a duck a twinkie but it won't stop em quacking
get over the idea we all claim to be Indian, or even all want to be Indian. Its just wrong. Get over the idea there's only one right way to use English, It's a mongrel of a tongue, in every sense of the word.
your apparent belief that the AJU passes laws which are binding on Indians doesn't say much for your journalistic skills.
anyone leaves themselves wide open under all kinds of other laws (like federal US laws) if they publish information which can be construed as libel or slander...the reason we have such a strict code for the AJA is so we don't get into that kind of trouble.
why not write and get published an exposé of William Two Feather (http://www.ecoactive.com/) who last we heard was in New South Wales.
What's wrong with him, aside from being a bit of a wanker, he says he's not asking for money? is he not Indian?
As you can see, gullible environmentalists in Australia have fallen for his spiel. There are lots of people here who'd be happy to co-operate with you on that.
Local knowledge: Eco Active are not environmentalists. They are the green equivalent of plastic shamans, use all the same words, and do nothing that's real or authentic. Real Australian greenies are not kooky freaks.
If you want to see what my wealthy local crystal sniffers get up to, google native + american + essences + byron.
Indians have always confronted frauds face-to-face. A recent example. (http://newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=frauds;action=display;num=1124735250;start=)
Glad to hear that -- it's not obvious from anything here at the site that this group does anything other than post stuff here...gee, isn't that the same kinda mis-conception that you guys got about us???
It's a simplistic statement because not every Western person values only money, by a long chalk. .
I take your point there are some wonderful exceptions to my experience-based observation that westerners don't value that which is free. but they are exceptions. Or why else did mainstream culture only start valuing water once they started paying for it? How else did we get in this environmental mess but through people not valuing that which life gives them more than that which they buy? why else do they need to own land and buy and sell it? why even invent the idea?
A true story to explain this, as we experience it here Downunda: When we were doing non-violent direct action in the forests, it was really hard to get people out to them, but there would be people flocking to like "drum yourself to nirvana" workshops and "weekend warrior experiences", we used to joke that if only we advertised actions as workshops, and charged money for coming (plus used great phrases like "get in touch with your inner earth warrior") we'd get plenty of folks. some thought it would only work if we issued tattoos, free piercings or certificates for all who completed the week long course tho. of course we were joking, but it has a real grain of truth there.
I'm quite sorry we've gotten to loggerheads. Let me just say again for the record: I agree with your aims, I am also deeply irritated & often offended by wankers waving spirituality around they are not entitled to, and I also think people should get into their own roots and make their own ancestral cultures workable, whatever colour they are. I also believe that we all need to haul ass together despite our differences, to fix what's wrong with the big picture on planet earth. And that will take unity, and that will take some degree of respect for each others Native belief systems. It aint just about "white" people anymore vs "Red people". There's people of every colour happily profiting from Mother earth's decline. And (thankyou spirit) There's good folk of every colour.
here's to them,
Slainte
Willow
willowa@nor.com.au
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get over the idea we all claim to be Indian, or even all want to be Indian. Its just wrong. Get over the idea there's only one right way to use English, It's a mongrel of a tongue, in every sense of the word.
You're misrepresenting what's been said, rather than answering questions which evidently make you uncomfortable.
anyone leaves themselves wide open under all kinds of other laws (like federal US laws) if they publish information which can be construed as libel or slander...the reason we have such a strict code for the AJA is so we don't get into that kind of trouble.
Take another look at what you wrote originally. It didn't say what you thought it said: hence my remark about your journalistic skills.
What's wrong with him [William Two Feather], aside from being a bit of a wanker, he says he's not asking for money?
They all say that. You're a journalist: do a Google search, then follow it up with some questions here. If you want to help, that is. I get the feeling that you're more interested in persuading us to let your twinkie friends at ghostchild off the hook. I notice you've ignored my question about their racist appropriation of Indian culture. Oh, look at that; you indulge in it yourself. (http://ghostchild.com/newbb+viewtopic.topic_id+83+forum+4.htm)
Real Australian greenies are not kooky freaks.
So why is it so difficult for you to get 'bodies' for your actions? Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question.
...it's not obvious from anything here at the site that this group does anything other than post stuff here...
It would have been if you'd done a little research. It takes very little research at ghostchild.com to see that its owners are promoting a dope-growing pseudo-chief, exactly the kind of person we're interested in.
gee, isn't that the same kinda mis-conception that you guys got about us
I think our conceptions about you have been generally accurate.
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Hello Barnaby, everyone.
>Sigh< ? A rant of things I have noticed and would like to comment on. ? In reading *again* the posts here. ? I see so much stuff being mixed in. ? I agree with Barnaby across the pond there, everyone gets a good idea of content. ? They do want everyone to know what they are and what their focus is or there would not be a website. ?
With the obvious over, ? It was previously stated here:
""It is not in the Ghostchild interest to become "THE" Indian site, although most members are, like you, blood mixed.""
So some of you are ? Moors, New Age, I guess there are druids and witches in your group too?. ? If you
are primarily Indian, led by an "Anishinabe Chief," (Indian) ? why would you have such an open membership with such newage types? ? There is a posting on another group Druidry.org ? (below) by
perecabra inviting Druids to come over and help out on Ghost Child. ? That's fine, but what do the Indian Nations have to do with that? ? Do they sanction that have you asked them all "To join the Indian Nations of the Big Turtle Island" ? What kind of speak is that? ? Or do you mean The Not Real Indian Nations? ? there's quite a few of them out here. ? Quote:
"to join to the Indian Nations of the Big Turtle, to join to the Aboriginal Peoples of Australia, to join to the Moor People, to join to the Catalan People, to join all the Peoples of the world... to help to heal our Mother Earth and peoples conscience."" ?
In case it has not been noticed. ? The Indian Nations don't want to mix their beliefs, ceremonies
and everything else with everyone else so how hard is it to respect that? ? If you don't believe me go ask some of the Nations, go visit their websites and read the declarations. ? Or better yet, there are Indians here on this list they can tell you real quick what they think of this or you can go read other posts on this site and get a feeling for the general air of this topic. ? It is for that purpose that this site exists to point out the exploiters who for whatever reason just don't get it! ? Many people out here just figure they can steamroll right over what the Nations actually want and make declarations like the above. ? Does Ghostchild consider its self one of the Indian Nations? ?
The answers some of the Druid membership gave back are very good.
http://www.druidry.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=9049&sid=5759b21bcd7664dfeafdc9cf5884871c
I agree with Frank concerning plant diseases and other pests spreading
across borders. ? I have a close friend in the USDA so I'm aware of the problems in this area.
There is also this via perecabra
http://turning-point.ca/forum/read.php?f=1&i=1025&t=333
We really don't know a whole lot about the Druids except from sources not partial
to them such as the Romans. ? There are many circulating non scholarly ideas of what Druids were online and there are Druids online and out there today that we, ok that I have seen at Festivals, who really do not resemble what we know of them historically. ? I don't see this statement being entirely factual: ?
""And yes, Druidism has a lot in common with Native American practice."" ?
>cont'd<
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The above statement would anger Indians and I have to say, i've been hearing it alot lately! ?
Along with the rest of what is there. ? It is fuzzy warm prose. ? It paints a picture that is not real. ? Wicca is very recent it was created by Gerald Gardener. ? Some would say it is not real ? LOL and I have to agree, much of it is not real because it too is a developing BLEND of other things. ? It certainly has not been "shadowed" by anything its all over the place and it has nothing to do with Druids other than I guess it's just being further blended with that too. ?
I can say that as I'm a crankyWitch - not a Wiccan. ? I have problems with lots of things due to all the blending and lack of people doing it that don't know their history regarding such things. ? Saying that there are so many things in commom with "Native American Practice" and then throwing in Druidsm and Wicca etc... in - is nonsense. ? Indians have nothing to do with
these things the comonalities you say exist only appear that way on the surface. ? It shows again the common thoughts of those who do not understand other people and their ways for if they did, they would respect them. ?
There was another post that bothered me on the board here:
?
""One thing that had occurred to me maybe you have all not understood about the people who go to these NAFPS is that they have been raised in a culture where people only truly value what they PAY for. ? They are simply not set up culturally to learn by observation and respectful listening to someone who has not formally asked a fee in a workshop or similar setting. ""
So are you saying that because you think people are "culturally" conditioned to only trust what they have paid for that it should then be ok for them to go listen to a Fraud operator give a presentation? ? How would you like to attend an Herb class and later find out the person had no clue what they were teaching? ? What if someone died from having the wrong information given to them? ? What if someone paid to go to a sweat and died? ? It happens, it has happened and it will continue to happen and it is why groups like this
one and others out there exist. ? To inform. ? Activist appear online and in person. ? And of course people
will get miffed over being found out. ? You're cutting into their income. ? No, we don't need to change, they do.
Is stated: ? "They are simply not set up culturally to learn by observation and
respectful listening to someone who has not formally asked a fee in a workshop or similar setting." ?
The same person that made the above statement is now taking the ? ""you have all at least motivated me to finally get the Lakota Declaration of War against cultural exploiters out to some of the worst of the plastics around these parts. ? We'll also have a good opportunity to raise this in discussions with locals next year, when the Canadian Residential Schools Survivors group is here."" ?
One thing you will see real quick and you may notice reading other threads here.. ? When you start approaching people regarding Frauds in the community you may get opposition. ? Tou may be attacked. ? You may be verbally accosted, possibly physically accosted by supporters and sometimes spiritually attacked as well depending on the makeup of the group you are encountering. ? You will also possibly be threatened by lawsuits. ?
Usually the person you are initially informing the community about or discussing while doing research on them will come forward, make a general or fru-fru statment, then fade back to the background while they let their supporters do all the speaking for them - and usually women I have noticed. ? I do wish that person luck in going after them just keep in mind that some people don't like being found out and will use many types of tactics to get you to shut up. ?
I do appreciate the posts on the Moors as it has caused me to start delving into that history.
I am the first to admit that I do not know it all and it is that fact that keeps me surrounded with books and bookmarks. ?
Don't forget to read: ? http://newagefraud.org/
Or this one ? http://newagefraud.org/about.html
take care.
LindaR
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One thing that had occurred to me maybe you have all not understood about the people who go to these NAFPS is that they have been raised in a culture where people only truly value what they PAY for. ? They are simply not set up culturally to learn by observation and respectful listening to someone who has not formally asked a fee in a workshop or similar setting. ?
I think that most of the "people who go to these NAFPS" at some point or other in life have visited a church for some kind of ceremony. And I doubt very much that they didn´t appreciate the ceremony because it was for free. I also doubt that anyone of them taking the Holy Communion thought "Geez, I´ve better put some money in the hand of that priest so that I get a proper blessing!" I am also sure that anyone of them would perfectly well be able to learn by respectful listening to someone who has not asked for a fee.
The cultures we live in *do* value the spirituality and ceremonies they can participate in for free. It happens every day in all religions. The problem is that Native American spiritual beliefs have never had the same dignity as "real religions" or beliefsystems created by non-Natives. If they had, every single person putting up money for a so called Native ceremony would find it strange or even offensive.
People are gullible, yes, some of them. I happen to think that most people have enough sense to wonder what is going on if the priest is standing by the church door demanding an entrance fee. So where does this "common sense" go when a faked medicine man asks for an entrance fee to his "church" - a sweatlodge?
The problem has nothing to do with the way our culture value things that are for free - the problem lies in the way our culture value the right for Indigenous peoples to have the same status as any other people in the world.
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Pere Cabra and Willow:
First, PC, is that your real name? Or another one you made up? (For those who don't realize it, it translates roughly as Father Goat. But pere is French and cabra is Spanish. Cabra or cabron is also widely used in Spanish slang as an...interesting word.)
OK, PC, it's the OBOD you're part of, not the UAOD. An oversight on my part, and I'll edit that out so no one else reading my posts gets the wrong ideas about you. Still, as Linda points out, there are lots of problems with the ideas the OBOD pushes. Being a part of them seems like the worst way to help Catalans.
And why the post in Catalan? I don't post in Ndeh, Annika doesn't post in Swedish, even Barnaby takes care to explain English slang that Americans might not understand. It's spam, and it's gone.
That did seem like a step back. Thanks for the invite, but I'm overworked as it is. And I doubt I could do much for Catalans, since I have no power to affect Spanish govt.
"Let me ask you: do you really believes that all things can be told the same way, with the same words..."
Never said that. I (and some others) just pointed out you were imitating what you think is a reel reel super spirchul way that Indians supposedly talk. But you haven't done it, for the most part, since that first post. So don't try to pretend it can't be done.
Oh, I liked the joke about Bush. So I take back what I said about you being humorless.
Willow,
"nothing hypocritical in pointing out there's a whole heap of great big juicy fraud types that you seem to not be targetting, like the companies behind any of the products of these people. That's just how I see it, could be an Aussie thing. we tend to go for the biggest guy lol."
That's not much of an excuse. Like not going after rapists because there are serial killers out there. No reason you can't go after both, except that those with expertise in capturing rapists are better off using that skill on the rapists.
That analogy was deliberate, since many spiritual frauds ARE rapists, and sometimes child molestors, in addition to defrauding huge numbers of their money, in addition to spreading lies, in addition to doing huge spiritual harm, etc, etc.
Perhaps you're fortunate in that your people never had any frauds besides Marlo Morgan spreading falsehoods about your traditions. If you had, you might see that spiritual frauds are the biggest source of falsehoods for American Indians, and that makes all our other problems that much harder to solve.
We have six years of practice in going after frauds, and more than a few successes, such as being used as a reference on more than 300 sites, having EX--Nuagers as members who do an awful lot to help on this issue, and being the target of silly attempts to threaten "libel" lawsuits not much different from your silly talk.
Willow, we've had threats to sue about once a month ever since we started. Without exception, all of them were pure hot air said by people who don't know the law and only want to shut up critics. There is nothing even vaguely libelous in anything we've ever said, and I challenge you to find it. Posting someone's email? Perfectly legal if they put it online themselves. It's only a crime if you urge others to harass them by email with threats.
I'm glad if you're passing along the Declaration to the plastics in your area. I'd be even happier if you'd let us know who they are.
BTW, yall is is said all over the US, including Texas. And horses WERE Native to the Americas. They just got killed off by the Ice Ages.
One more thing: I'm starting a thread on a fraud named Rainbow Eagle whose on his way to Finland, and if any on your board want to join us in writing or phoning, glad to hear it.
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G'Day folks,
I genuinely thank you Al & Linda for your posts. Yep, I am going to cop it when I get in amongst the problem, but that's nothing new lol.
I tried to get the whole subject up as a feature piece when I was at the local paper, the gubbas in charge just said they could not see there was a story in it...yep...that's part of what you're up against too.
What I need from you folks is ONE person who is here in Australia who I can get quotes from about this who is one of the good guys, i.e, not a NAFPS. Its not one any of the people I know with the ancestry are up to or qualified to comment on, I'm certainly not. Because I'm in the AJA tho whatever I write if I do it properly, the union covers me from lawsuits. Thats however why I have to be careful what I publish about any individual in a public forum like this (or Ghostchild for that matter)
The folks I immediately want to investigate and write about are William TwoFeather (thanks for his contacts as I was looking for those last year to go gettim) -- can you tell me more about him? email it please to willowa@nor.com.au, or details about anyone else. That way you can be as frank as you like.
* The Sanyassins/Osho (appropriating elements of Native Culture for a nasty fusion and also pretend to be greenies, major economic force in Byron Bay)
* Byron Essences
* Grandmother Windhawk
* Covens in Armidale (very nasty fusion of sex drugs and black magik, claiming to be Celtic, appropriates elements of "native" cultures -- I've gone face-to-face with this mob again and again.)
* The Dreamcatcher industry and shops retailing them -- you know I've always thought the ones that are for hanging on rear-view mirrors are particularly silly, after all, you aint supposed to be asleep and dreaming when you are driving.
If anyone has a reputable contact for matters relating to Wicca, that would be good. I have stayed right out of that loop since tackling the Armidale mob directly a few years back. Anyone tells you a coven can actually kill you with ritual magik is giving them too much power, but they will make life very unpleasant. things like break into the house and leave blood spatters on stuff etc. nice.
Oh and re that Lakota posting, perhaps what you missed is I was trying to say very gently, that he should not steal that native artists work, and tried to take it right back to the basic idea which is shared by many peoples (not just the Lakota) of how to make something in a sacred manner based on your own inner creativity. Bundjalung use smudging (called smoking tho, which is confusing for readers so I use smudging when speaking to a North American as they know what it means then) with green eucalyptus leaves etc (you'll notice I did not specify a herb mix), my (Metis) mother taught me the four directions stuff. The Celts had the four elemental kingdoms too, and I was not aware that it would be wrong to tell someone how to make their own bracelet in a sacred manner based on this simple knowledge I was raised to believe is the common birthright of all peoples. so I am sorry, I acted with good intentions.
Oh yeah, and there IS a huge issue with appropriation of Aboriginal culture. for one, how many gals have you seen playing didjeridu?? and how about dot painting? and the fact almost all the big galleries are owned by gubbas? Oh yes, and then there's the ongoing destruction of all the sacred sites, from Kakadu to Timbarra. Read at Jinta, you'll see.
There is also a big issue with fake fuax greenies. If it walks like a duck, but smells and laughs like a hyena, it's probably not a duck.
Cheers y'all
Willow
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Well this is all certainly exciting, isn't it?!?
Perhaps I misread a recent comment regarding getting others to fight "my battles," but I need no one to speak on my behalf. And about Women coming forward to speak? Are you actually suggesting Women should not speak their opinions? Because, again, what you're alluding to is a convenient fantasy on your part to label Moon and myself.
EducatedIndian, no actually I didn't read those links, Moorish Science doesn't matter to me, nor any of this celtic, gaelic,wiccan, etc., etc. stuff. All Religion is Archaic and redundant in my eyes.
What I think you're missing is the moor unity site has nothing to do with Moorish Science. I actually know very little about the Moors, what I do know is the person that runs that forum has a good heart, is non-violent, respectful, and open to learning.
Once again about the names... I have nothing to do with giving people those names. As for my name, it's not a name I chose for myself, as I said; and I never would've chose a Haudenosaunee name for myself, noting that I do have Haudenosaunee blood in me. You can call me this Christian Name all you want, but I'm not even Christian. LOL
... for the most part your words have not been constructive, your second post was for the most part, but your personal comments are cruel and petty, particularly to someone who is hormone imbalanced. Communication is communication honey, regardless of the venue, and if you were standing here talking like this to me I'd respond just as I have. If I take something personally, if I get defensive, that's my problem. Don't forget you're doing the same thing.
If you weren't being so heartless, if you were being consistently constructive in a positive way, I would not perceive your words as "an attack," but so much of your dialogue is negative. I don't have any problem with your message or your concerns, it's how you're expressing it, and it's your intent, and that is also why I'm on the defensive.
About the High Treason, do you know what High treason is? it means an attempt or the act of undermining the Sovereign. Consider for a moment, that in fact Kaneekaneet is who he says he is. If he is, then this would be an act of High Treason, especially because it is legal for Indigenous People to grow and trade or sell this plant or any other. If he's not who he says he is, then coup on me and coup on Moon. Personally, I don't care if he is who he says he is or not, I know where I stand, and it is not beside any leadership; inherent or otherwise. I am a Two Spirit, a Sumogett in the making, my place is beside the Women and Children.
If franzone is Ghostwolf, we have talked about him before, and we have also talked many times about our position (Moon and myself) about anyone who would abuse, manipulate, or exploit any person, or Sovereign People. It is unacceptable, and is no different than a gov't exploiting a People, or how the English language is so wrought with non-english. But I would think that People would atleast be given the chance to take responsibility for their actions without having people snapping and spitting and threatening and taunting them, like what you all are doing here. I'd say shame on you all but that's Christian too.
As far as disclaimers go, I had written something yesterday, but it was in anger, so I'll redo it in a couple days.
As for DreamWalkerAwake, I don't judge People based on their affiliations, maybe he hasn't found a better group to talk about Druids??? I certainly won't write someone off because of another person's opinion, speculation, or "catch of the day for the pack." I make informed decisions based on knowledge and Experience.
Lastly, Saq Be: not that I need to justify my choices, but I linked to them based on their MS, and that it says there that Mayan Elders requested such a forum exist. the Mayans are blood-related to the Haudenosaunee (Or Iroquois, Six Nations), and that to me is something important. If I learn the place is crap then it'll come down.
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Oh and re that Lakota posting, perhaps what you missed is I was trying to say very gently, that he should not steal that native artists work, and tried to take it right back to the basic idea which is shared by many peoples (not just the Lakota) of how to make something in a sacred manner based on your own inner creativity.
'Inner creativity', in the sense you used, is a completely modern, Western, Romantic concept. See Lionel Trilling's Sincerity and Authenticity (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/TRISIN.html).
Bundjalung use smudging (called smoking tho, which is confusing for readers so I use smudging when speaking to a North American as they know what it means then)...
See, that's exactly the problem. You don't know what it means yourself, unless you've lived in a Bundjalung community for a long time. There was absolutely no way the random hippie you decided to advise was going to understand it. Taking one practice out of context, calling it something different, saying it's essentially the same based on superficial similarities: hey, presto! What's 'theirs' becomes 'mine' because it 'feels right'. That's what twinkies do and it's an insult to the people you profess to respect.
The Celts had the four elemental kingdoms too
Forget everything you've learned about 'Celts' from neo-pagan sources. It's romantic tosh at best. Forget that 'it's all the same at the core' idea too. It's also a modern, Western concept derived from the non-scholarship of Jung and Eliade. You've used it in exactly the way that twinkies do: to legitimise your appropriation of other people's practices. If it walks like a duck...
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... for the most part your words have not been constructive, your second post was for the most part, but your personal comments are cruel and petty, particularly to someone who is hormone imbalanced.
OMG! Like a grumpy teenager, you mean? You're certainly acting like one.
I make informed decisions based on knowledge and Experience.
As you say yourself, you don't have much life-experience (http://ghostchild.com/smartfaq+faq.faqid+18.htm)[/b], so please listen to Al and the many others here who have vastly more experience than you in the field of fake Indians. Al's trying to help you: if you knew anything about Indian communities you'd know that mockery is a way of letting people know they're doing something wrong. He did explain that.
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'Dreamwalkerawake' recently posted this on the ghostchild.com forum: (http://ghostchild.com/newbb+viewtopic.topic_id+107+forum+4.htm)[/url]
They are, in the words of their own ancestors, the redskinned wasichu.
They are those that, being anybody, prehave to be it putting on brilliant titles. And excluding. They are convinced that the a spirituality of the Indian Nations - if this really exists - is something that is already possessed for having been born where they have been born. This is true Ignorance. Then they, not possessing it at all, are afraid of those whoe they fear because they imagine that want to stole it.
But nobody can stole them what they did not possess.
I wonder that their mixed blood is betraying them. They perform like the wasichu. I know many. They have attempted for me to take the life and the culture of our people many times. In fact, they are the pressing finger in the trigger of the hotchkiss in Wounded Knee.
Talk about spitting the dummy (ie having a childish tantrum)! What a poisonous racist lunatic.
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'Dreamwalkerawake' recently posted this on the ghostchild.com forum: (http://ghostchild.com/newbb+viewtopic.topic_id+107+forum+4.htm)[/url]
Talk about spitting the dummy (ie having a childish tantrum)! What a poisonous racist lunatic.
Wow. Did you really say that DreamWalkerAwake? Wanna explain?
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"They are convinced that the a spirituality of the Indian Nations - if this really exists - is something that is already possessed for having been born where they have been born. This is true Ignorance."
*If* "it" exists?
Yeesh.
--Scott
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I'm proud to see that you have had a deep work of investigation about me. Well, something in what I said is knocking at your door?
If you had really investigated, you will had reached the site www.mtm-editor.es, and going to the page "authors" you should find my name (Pere Cabra). So, educated, I hope this will answer your question. You can rest.
It's very interesting to look carefully to the authors list.... you'll find one of you: Standig Eagle, yes. The one that A.I.M. itself calls a fraud. And it really is, as I said to the publishers. They meet in the publishers office for a week - all payed - and wrote the book in a week! hahahahahaha!!!! If this is not a fraud, let me say it!
This is what you need to persecute!
About OBOD, the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids, those people that believes in all that Mr.Philp Carr-Goom says: I forgot I was - and probably I am - a member of the forum. Yes, two years ago, a publishing company contacted me to ? ? ? ? entrusting me a work: the translation to catalan and spanish of the "book of teachings" of a druid society in england. This society was OBOD. Not knowing who they were I was initially convinved.
My grandmother and my mother grandmother and my granmother grandmother had been recognized witches, and so it was my father grandmother and, for me, it was a question of honor my elders.
In Catalonia we have an ancient tradition of witches and wizards, and our spoken tales are plenty of it. Although the roman empire and the catholic church has persecuted it. Nevertheless, it is our true inheritance.
Not knowing who OBOD was I accepted the work of tranlation.
Philip Carr-Gomm himself contacted me by internet and sent me all (or quite all) their published texts so I could start to translate.
And I did it. I did the first chapter, I did the second chapter, I did the third chapter... and I did not did the fourth chapter.
After a discussion with the publishers, I sent a very polite letter to OBOD asking them to search another person to do the job.
The reasons I argued were:
1.- What OBOD explains is a misunderstanding of the true wisdom of the witches, wizards and druids as I have received from my elders.
2.- I did not agree with the opinion that all the druidic wisdom was inherited in the british land and that their were the only inheritants.
3.- I did not agree with their melting pot of knowledge from around the world: egyptian, gnostic, greek, maniquean,... and tibethan, buddhist, shintoist... and also native amreican, off course.
4.-I did not agree with their intent to convert historical sacred sites - as Stonehenge, for instance - in their own creations and, them, in their true only inheritors.
5.- I did not agree with the masquerade they converted the druidic ceremonies.
6.- I did not agree with their interest in the liturgy and the ritual and the obedience to the forms, to the protocols and to the hierarchies.
During the few months I did the work I tried to share at their forum, although - being not british - I found a so respectful welcome as I have had here.
I tried to post there and to share my opinion to what - since my point of view - was a misunderstanding of important facts, as those related with gnosticism and the Jesus Christ life. Although, it seems that there are allways people that likes to shoot others and that are ready to crucify them if they are not "on the rule".
After all, I left the forum (investigators, tell me if my amendments to them are still posted.. or if they have erased- as you did - what I have posted there). I still have not received an agreement for the three first translated chapters.
What moreeee......mmmm.. don't remember if I have posted in any other site.... mmmm, yeah! are you interested in ? gender disphoria??? I have shared too at the www.figinternet.com society.... let me think..... mmm. Don't remember more. Oh! yeah! there are some paintings done mby me to sell at: www.artareas.com ...If you find something else, please let me know.
(note to educated: Pere is not french, nor spanish, nor italian, nor english... but catalan... the correct translation is Peter. Cabra is a catalan surname than means Cappra, yes. The name is too a gift from my grandmother and it is to honor her that I'm named like this... it means, if you want, "The cappra that goes upside the mountain", and has a symbolical meaning because I was born in january 6, so I'm capricorn, and capricorn of ascendence, and being born the six, it means the mountain.).
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Thanks Barnaby, I see what he's offering me, and I'm learning from it.
Thank Al, not me.
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G'Day,
One of the big nasties you want who are pushing fusion Nuage wankery around the country here are DMG Media international (Australia) Pty Ltd. They run the Mind-Body_Spirit_Festival franchise -- a big event in Sydney and a big event in Melbourne every year, plus side events at bangalow, Gold Coast and other places sometimes.
The two Native folks who get in the media regularly for being at these events are William Two Feather, and a woman called "Awahoshi Kavan", who claims to be Cherokee-Slovakian, and is based in Italy where she runs a healing centre. her thing is tuned crystal bowls (healing through sounds), and she sings in what a journalist in Melbourne said she claimed was was Cherokee.
I have sent an email to the Mind Body Spirit Festival head office in Sydney, asking if they are going to have any Native American teachers or crafts at Sydney for this year's (November), as there is information from the Elders of the Nations which they need to hear if they are having that element present.
In my research, it turns out that the Native American element is one of the things that routinely gets mentioned in media reports of these events. I can explain this, having been assigned to cover the bangalow one a couple of years back when I was on-staff at the local paper. The reason is they are one of the few healers there who makes any kind of (relative) sense and it is possible to take even remotely seriously. There is something sad about those things, which are not festivals, but trade fairs, full of stuff a journalist cannot by nature take too seriously like the crystal singing bowls stuff. But I was so peeved by what William had at his stall, I didn't speak with him and he didn't get a mention at all in my piece, instead I gave the guernsey to a woman "chanelling" drawings of gullible folks "guardian spirits for $30 a throw ($40 US). Anyway, I will let you know how I get on, with the Oz MBS, but it would be good if one of the UK members could see if the British franchise is also DMG World Media. I expect it is.
About William, I have emailed the Mescalero Apache for guidance from the Tribal Council on how to approach it. That's just how its done under the Tribe Law here. I'm sure you'll all appreciate that it is respect which makes me hesitant to act on mere say-so, without speaking with the Tribal elders first.
Cheers folks
Willow
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A final few things for you, John:
"All Religion is Archaic and redundant in my eyes."
Talk about spitting on your ancestors! ?
"What I think you're missing is the moor unity site has nothing to do with Moorish Science. ? I actually know very little about the Moors"
What I think you're missing is the obvious: "Moorish Science" is far better known in the US (and probably Canada. Sorry, but your "fictitious country" arguments doesn't change the reality one bit.) So as long as you have the site, most will probablu mistake one for the other. And I'm sure the MS racist nuts will try to use your site as proof of the spread of "their" people, if they haven't already. ?
"As for my name, it's not a name I chose for myself, as I said"
Actually you explictly said you DID give the name to yourself. Very disrespectful.
"... for the most part your words have not been constructive, your second post was for the most part, but your personal comments are cruel and petty, particularly to someone who is hormone imbalanced."
You MUST be joking.
By your crackpot claim, I can't speak honestly to women at certain times of their cycle.
"Communication is communication honey"
What? Is that a typo? "Communication honey"?
As opposed to "hand signal molasses"? Or "eye contact karo syrup"?
Sounds messy...
"Don't forget you're doing the same thing."
LOL! Actually I'm not taking any of this personally, which is what really ticks you off, doesn't it?
"If you weren't being so heartless"
Is this where the violins start playing? Shouldn't there be telethon numbers flashing on the screen?
Once again, get it through your oh-so-ultransensitive head:
If you can't handle the mild teasing that is typical of Indian Humor (you do understand what that is, right? You do know Indians and not just Nuagers, right?), then how do you expect anyone to take you seriously as a proponent of Native sovereignty?
Like it or not, your self description and your co founder's silly photo will be endlessly mocked as proof that Natives don't deserve self rule, along with Agecourtay's silly claims.
"About the High Treason, do you know what High treason is? ? it means an attempt or the act of undermining the Sovereign."
Hey John, Agecourtay is NOT a king or an emperor. Neither is any other Native chief.
Read some history. PLEASE. And not just obscure and useless arguments like "Canada is a legal fiction."
Native chiefs and other leaders become leaders by ***following their people's wishes.***
Unlike European kings and emperors, they don't seek out power, demand total control, hold themselves aboive the law, or insist their people follow them like sheep, etc.
Native nations are (or should be) sovereign. But not Native leaders. It was Louis the 14th who said "I am the state", not Louis Riel.
"Personally, I don't care if he is who he says he is or not, I know where I stand,"
Reread your own sentence. The first clause completely contradicts the second.
"and it is not beside any leadership; inherent or otherwise."
Then why promote him as an alleged chief?
"I am a Two Spirit,"
Sorry, but you are NOT. Two spirits are SPIRITUAL leaders, and you proclaimed your people's faith as "archaic". I realize some gays (including some Native gays) mistakenly think two spirit=gay, but it doesn't. It can be, but it doesn't have to. Many two spirits are gay, but most Native gays are not two spirits. Is that clear? You should know what you're talking about, above all of the sake of your own causes.
"As far as disclaimers go, I had written something yesterday, but it was in anger, so I'll redo it in a couple days."
That's decent of you, to admit your mistakes. ?
"Lastly, Saq Be...it says there that Mayan Elders requested such a forum exist."
Could be, but Saq Be has no Mayan elders on it. Just a white guy pretending to be a Mayan elder.
http://www.chiron-communications.com/images/Carlos%20Barrios
"If I learn the place is crap then it'll come down."
Good to hear. So just to let you know how it's crap:
Saq Be is basically Carlos Barrios, a white Guatemalan posing as a Mayan elder, and a couple naive white guys in New Mexico who've fallen for him. For all their noble sounding proclamations of what they plan to do for Mayans, there's no sign of any of it happening. All that's happened is that Barrios tours the US selling faux ceremonies.
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There is something sad about those things, which are not festivals, but trade fairs,
Yes Willow, you're right...
In Catalonia we usually have the visitations of a french lakhota singer that's been born in Lyon. Don't remember now his name... but I'll ask for it.
There's some years ago, a friend of mine was "invited" to visit a TeePee camp in the forest near Girona, to the north of Catalonia. He related me that the TeePee had a ground of tropical wood !!!??? and that pipes of heating were under the ground of wood...!!!??? and that there was an "occult" cavern under a pool... the door was a waterfall ... and that the waterfall could be stopped with a command at a distance... you passed under the waterfall and you accessed in the cavern... hahahahahahahhhhh.... inside the cavern there were tibethan paintings in the walls, egyptian paintings, Scandinavian runes on the floor, Celtic symbology... also there were rooms of massage, sauna... hahahahahahhhh...
Fortunatelly, the TeePee camp did not suceed and now they do not exist.
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There's something that I would like to ask you about Indigenous language, since it is a subject that has been spoken in this board... it is a simple question - I suppose - but I would want your answer.
This is the question: A Mohawk is going to attack a Hopi if a Hopi is using the Iroquian Language to explain something to an Algonquin?
Or, it is better to them to talk in "common" english?
And then I would like to ask you too what do you think about the native people using english names or spanish names... should Carlos Nakai refuse their spanish name? Is he permitted to use it? or should him ask permission to spanish gov.?
And, while waiting for your answers I would like to explain you something about catalan language: the catalan language has received a lot of influences, obviously the main is the latin of the roman empire, but before that we have had the influence of merovingian, celts, greeks and phoenician... until the second-third century, the celts were living at the Pyrenees, were catalonia was born. Our language has a lot of celt words, as Gaulois, Basque and Occitan. When the celts moved towards the british island, they influenced their language deeply, forming what we now call "english language".
Yes, it is the language you use in this board.
I just want to tell that we, the catalan people, are not annoyed because you use words of cataln origin, celtic origin, occitan or gaulois origin. You have our permission.
I don't understand why you're not proud when someone use a word of one of our own languages to explain something.
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It's not the use, it's the misuse that upsets people. Try understanding this:
http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/articles/art04.htm
And we're still waiting for you to explain the incredibly racist things you said on ghostchild. "Redskinned wasichu"? In just two words, that's promoting hatred for both Indians and whites.
The fact that no one challenged him on his racist rants and religious bigotry says a lot about the low standards of ghostchild. Mild jokes and constructive criticism make ghostchildish people explode. Protecting people from spiritual exploiters gets you called a Nazi and McCarthyist.
But PC can rant about redkskins and Willow can rant about those "Commie Jews" and everybody there thinks that's just fine.
The terminal cluelessness of PC and some of the other twinkies on ghostchild doesn't surprise us, but I think it is making some of us wonder if we should even bother trying to get through to these very thick heads.
There are signs of hope in some of you once in awhile. That John admits his mistakes sometimes, that Willow helps us track some of the frauds, and that PC says he will, that tells us this hasn't been entirely a waste of time.
This thread has gotten long enough to be unwieldy. Anymore information on frauds in Australia, Catalan, etc, go ahead and start new threads.
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And my name is Trisha Jacobs rather dutch/german sounding though it's neither. But I'm supposed to give it up because it doesn't suit someone's standard of Indian?
What I'm saying is - these are our names that our relatives give us. Based in our family traditions, history and culture, however much that culture and history has been influenced through conquest.
And it is a mockery of those traditions, that history and that culture for someone outside of our families and communities to try imitate it. It cheapens it.
I was in line to get on a Greyhound bus a few months ago when a woman in line behind me accosted a young ndn guy also waiting. She proudly explained how her family was decended from a Cherokee princess (I wanted to sink though the floor at this point in embarrassment) and how son had been given a gen-u-whine ndn name. But she couldn't pronounce it so she decided they would just call him "little brother wolf."
So little respect for a culture she was trying to claim as her own.
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Actually I'd like to keep the name I got too. The nicknames I had when I was little weren't all that flattering if truth be told.
Yeah, I know how it goes. We're all supposed to be down on our knees gratefull for whatever scrap of anything the invaders forced on us.
blech.
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Trish, Sky, you're absolutely right.
This is the point were I wanted to go.
You have received the names that the dominant culture (by the guns) have forced you to "wear".
Also, your languages had been persecuted to the point that you cannot enter a cafe and ask for it in your ancestors language.
This is sad.
The same occurs in my homeland with catalan language and catalan name (educated, remember that Pere it is not french, but catalan, meaning Peter, and that Cabra is my surname meaning Cappra... no more mockering, please... is it educatedindian your name?).
I have posted these questions because you mock of my (bad)english while you are using too a stranger language. It is my opinion that you should ask to recover the normal and common use of your languages and names. Is it an indian name Russell Means or Big Foot? no, it is not, and this is sad (with absolutely ALL my respect to Russell Means and to the Chief Big Foot).
I agree too with educated and the posting at: http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/articles/art04.htm
My friend is peruvian native speaking fluid quechua and sometimes it is very difficult to translate directly phrases, concepts, ideas, feelings.. even words. Why, then, you mock of my bad english when I try to translate catalan to english? The construction of phrases and ideas is VERY VERY different. We use to talk using what we call "frases fetes" (done phrases) that has no meaning alone, by within the context.
It's just a matter of respect.
I will be happy the day when your native languages will be easy to listen in the street, in the U.S. news, in the schools...
Fortunately, you are still alive to recompose what the genocide has tried to end.
With respect,
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You know, it is so romantic, to have an Indian name, or so everyone who isnt ndn thinks.
Apart from my normal name, I was given my ndn name as a child. My family used to call me littlewolf because I was always playing with the german shepherd dogs we used to have, so this was a nickname / middlename. I knew what my ndn name was and always assumed it meant littlewolf, never asked about it or anything.
I am now approaching 47 yrs young, and it was less than a couple of years ago, I was actually told what it meant.
Like Sky said, ya can be called anything, and believe me I was, and its nothing to do with Wolves, Eagles or the like.
Lets me say, when in our home, Miamowi, wants to make fun of me, she calls me it. You all want to know what it is, well, I sure aint sharing it on here.
I might start a new craze of twinkie names.
Piya
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I was told, when I was given my ndn name, that it was for ceremony and not to use in everyday. I was told that names have power, and bad people can misuse your name, if they know it. My husband's mom gave him his name, actually the name of his grandfather, and he uses it when he is doing his art. His people have a different belief. The redbear part od my nick, here, is a nickname from college. It is desvriptive to people who know me.;)
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You know, it is so romantic, to have an Indian name, or so everyone who isnt ndn thinks.
I can´t understand why Nuagers over here make up so called Ndn names for themselves when traditional Swedish family names are nearly always connected to nature. If it is not a "son"-name like Andersson, you could be called Lake, Branch, Oak, Sea Twig, River, Mountain, Creek, Sea Islet....I could go on for ever. My maiden name translates "Forrest Grove".
(So thank God I married to "Banfield" and got at least half a nature-name...;) )
With all these beautiful names, why not just enjoy our own cultural connection to Mother Earth instead of making up some kind of...hrm...Ndn names... :-/
Annika
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No, I'm not sure you do get it DWA.
I'm not forced to call myself Trisha Rose. I want to call myself that. That's my Cherokee name. I was named after two of my grandmothers and I wouldn't change it for all the tea in china. Which given how much tea I drink and how much money I would save is saying something.
I speak my language. Badly. But I'm not tempted to call myself anything more romantic. 1. Theres nothing wrong with my name the way it is and 2. as has been pointed out, Cherokee names really aren't anything like "she runs on the moon with crystals" or "he soars through the wind like a mighty eagle" or any of that rubbish. When I was younger I was called in both CWY and English "frog girl," (CHD/DHD baby) something that would roughly equate to "she walks like a duck" and (because I'm so light compared to my dad) "came with the milk."
So please, don't tell me you get it because I really don't think that you do.
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So the same thing occurs in your homeland. Why not start a grassroots movement among YOUR people to relearn/reclaim your culture?
Yes, this is what I'm doing.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I get the mocking part, but not the you are using too a stranger language. I've been speaking fluent american since I was 4, when I moved from one grandparents home to the other.
Sorry, I did not refer to you...
There are many many nations that are recovering their language. Most nations have immersion programs.
This is good. I'm glad to listen it.
Russell Means 'indian name' is Russell Means. Big Foot's name was Big Foot but in a dialect other than american. Funny you should mention Big Foot. Arvol Lookinghorse does a ride every year with young people retracing Big Foot's movements. It's called...the Big Foot Ride.
Yes, I know what the Big Foot Ride is. Big Foot's name was Si Tanka .... if I well remember.
Playing indian is not going to gain my respect. Playing with those who play indian is not going to gain my respect.
It is not too a way to gain my own.
I would not be happy. How would I possibly converse with anyone in this forum aside from those who are Cherokee?
You can use english just as a convenience language. In my homeland our language has been next to disappear because we used spanish (the imposed language). When a language it is not used, it is dead.
Well of course we're alive, and you know what? Lots and lots of us are PISSED OFF. We're pissed off at the government and it's policies and we're pissed of at those who STILL perpetuate genocide but in a much more touchy feely we are all related kinda way. We are NOT all related. We are over 500 unique Nations with over 500 languages and traditions.
Yes, I know. We want not to be related, but... "divide and conquer". It is their main tool. Economical, pollytical and military interests want us no diverse... but uniform.
There's still something more to do (in my opinion)... art and crafts are scattered in museums and private collections (yours, native american, and ours, catalan)... it is our duty to claim our property.
There's still another duty (in my opinion): the repatriation of the bodies of those of our Nation that had died in foreign countries... if you're interested in you should know that two lakhota men are buried in Barcelona; they died (smallpox) in 1890 when the WildWestSDhow visited the city. I have informed of it to some Native Institutions. No one has showed interest (?????).
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thanks to all at this site who see the bullsh#T in that ghostchild site. I am just an ordinary ndn from the area their grand poopa says he from. The are crazy at that site about him and i thank all of you people who are trying to set them straight. Thanks alot...
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mmmm... interesting, just Google "educatedindian" and you will learn who this guy is banned from native sites!
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PC, you don't help your case by both lying and refusing to answer questions about your crap you've been spouting. "Banned"? LOL! I was kicked off of one site after Septmeber 11 because I stood up against the group owner saying all Muslims and Arabs should be mass murdered. And for that banning, I take pride.
Other than that, I haven't been banned anywhere, unless you're making it up like you did with Debbie supposedly "banned" from your site that she never even joined.
Actually, if you google "educatedindian", more than halfd of the sites are movie reviews on Amazon by a guy from INDIA.
Don't you look foolish, being caught in such an obvious lie that's so easy to check?
So come clean about your lying and about your racist crap, or else quit spamming our site. You're looking more and more like you're a habitual liar unable to tell fantasy from reality. And that's on top of being a bigoted hatemonger.
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mmmm... interesting, just Google "educatedindian" and you will learn who this guy is banned from native sites!
I really think that if you only want to tell us all how we should think and act (and that seems to be case) and now make shit up about Al, you really should be going.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
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I have tried to read all the many pages to this topic but just could not wade through it all. The sarcasm and flippancy gets to be too much. Many of you seem to be on a feeding frenzy, here in this topic and on others, and perhaps your egos should be checked at the door.
i don't really care about this topic and so don't think I am here defending any of these people.
Also, perhaps you need to have all those that claim to be Indian include thier enrollment information, or perhaps a scanned copy of thier enrollment card.
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And maybe you should keep in mind that this is hardly the first time someone like this has come onto this site or the old NAFPS site for that matter. It gets tiring, know what I'm saying?
btw - not everyone here who is indian has enrollment information to give.
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Also, perhaps you need to have all those that claim to be Indian include thier enrollment information, or perhaps a scanned copy of thier enrollment card. [/quote]
right after you show me YOUR enrollment card proving your race. be sure to include your ss # too if you are american. talk about ego.
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OK..so I will text Zoi who is Anishinaabe..for a very very long time..she will know who is chief and who isnt! She is in Geneva right now so I guess I will wait until her important work there is done eh?
Miamowi
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Sure I'll show you my enrollment card if you want. Would you like my address so you can come over and see it. You can stay for dinner if you would like.
Its amazing how easy it is to get people angry, and without even trying. Now perhaps if you can keep your anger in check you might actually understand what is written.
But you know about this card stuff, I know many here don't have cards and I don't really care if they do or if they don't.
And Mo, where is the ego in what I wrote. Maybe I am not an American after all. Did you forget about your neighbors just north of you. Maybe I don't have an ss card. Maybe I am just questioning things.
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In fairness to David, I should remind people he's not one of the ghostchildish ones. He's been around here before. But his reply had some stuff that was even more insulting, so those parts were deleted.
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Thanks for the edit. What I did write was insulting and wrong to write. Next time I'll wait. I don't like tit for tat and thats what I did. So again thanks.
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I have already seen what he wrote.
David, I guess anger clouds your eyes as well. Notice I said IF you are an american. I did not assume.
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Mo, you are right, I was a bit angry. Lets start back at square okay?
Also, sorry for taking up storage space here.
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David,
I can do that. Sorry for jumping on you.
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http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prweb140897.htm
Suddenly these two aren't funny any more.
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Jeez, I'm having kind of a arthur sonier deja vu moment here.
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That's what I thought.
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Much has happened in the state of Maryland of the contested remains of bones in the pocession of a state park in southern Maryland. Much has happened very queitly and quite secretly behind the scenes to return these bones to the ground. There are others that have been returned to the ground.
Governor Erlich in the state of Maryland has done his best not to appoint any new commissioners to the Maryland Commission on Indian Affairs nor has he appointed it a new Administrator. It is this commission that deals with the return of bones.
Knowing most of the people involved and tribes, some who talk quietly and some who scream and shout such as one who has been mentioned in a very negative in other posts here, this new claim is quite a surprise.
I don't know if this adds to this discussion or not.
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Sometimes I'm really slow: here's an update on The Chief of the Americas. In August 2005, a month before this thread was started, Kanekaneet aka Lawrence Agoutay, along with his brother Robert and one other, was busted for growing thousands of marijuana plants on Pasqua First Nation land. Here's comment from Elaine Chicoose - Pasqua First Nation chief - and Lawrence Joseph, vice-chief of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations:
http://www.carillon.uregina.ca:16080/09.15.05/news2.html
In April Agecoutay got six years:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2008/04/21/marijuana-sentencing.html
It would be interesting to know how much Agecoutay's acolytes knew about his activities when they were defending him here.
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Good night John boy,you are not one of "my Nations " Chiefs,not then now or ever,I know it,these peoples on this board know it,so knock it off and go earn an honest living.
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Tansi;
I should advise that Lawrence Joseph is the very well Respected Chief of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations (FSIN), which represents the vast majority of First Nations, in Saskatchewan.
Many people, that I know, could only roll their eyes, when hearing the defense that this individual used, while being prosecuted for the grow operation.
Ric
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please, do the research for yourselves, there is plenty out there...
dopehead propaganda links removed
we are all being lied to, so that Industry can profit.
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Shut up, hippie. Cannabis growing is also a ruthless multi-billion dollar industry which lies about its product (it's harmless, it cures cancer etc - give me a break). Agecoutay and his accomplices were caught growing millions of dollars worth of weed. They weren't doing that out of the goodness of their hearts.
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WOW
I won't be posting here anymore...
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Actually, I will, to ask just one more thing:
When you turn your back on Mother Nature, who is it you turn to face? Just wondering, I have always been baffled...
Feel free to eliminate that, I expect that that too is considered propaganda.
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WOW
I won't be posting here anymore...
54 minutes later:
...I have always been baffled...
Yes, smoking weed has that effect - along with the short-term memory loss you also seem to be suffering from.
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So Agecoutay is now "Mother Nature"?
Thank you, Michelle ;D, for giving me a belly laugh.
Must be nice, getting a promotion from his earlier claim of being Emperor of Indians.
Though in reality, he now answers to "Prisoner Number..."
This wasn't somebody growing a few plants with a blacklight in the closet for their personal use. He was a bigtime dealer.
I also notice you say nothing about his desecration of Native ancestors remains.