NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Walks on June 19, 2010, 11:52:22 pm
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> New 2012 Revelations with Rigoberta Menchú Tum and Revered Mayan Spiritual Elders
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> Join PeaceJam for a powerful day of blessing and initiation from leading Indigenous Mayan Spiritual Elders and Nobel Peace Prize Winner Rigoberta Menchú Tum.
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> This truly unique and powerful event will explore the true meaning of 2012 from the Mayan perspective. We've seen Hollywood's skewed interpretation, now hear the true meaning and new revelations about the 2012 prophecy from the Mayan leaders themselves.
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> Participants will have the opportunity to learn how to be a "Light Bearer" in these trying times of incredible transition as well as the opportunity to attend workshops led by Mayan Spiritual Teachers from Guatemala.
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> This event is open to all ages and will take place from 8:30am-4:30pm on July 8, 2010 at Naropa University's Nalanda Campus (6287 Arapahoe Ave) in Boulder. General Admission is $195/person and VIP Sponsorship Opportunities, which include a private group audience, a special blessing, and VIP seating for the entire event, are $495/person. All proceeds benefit the PeaceJam Foundation.
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> Click here to view event details and to register on our website!
> Or call us at 303-455-2099 to ORDER YOUR TICKETS TODAY!
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> Menchú Tum was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1992 in recognition of her work for the rights of the Mayan people in Guatemala and indigenous people around the world. She is the youngest woman and the only Native American individual to ever win the prize and will be sharing new information and unique insight into the true Mayan prophecy about the year 2012.
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> We look forward to seeing you at this once-in-a-long- calendar event!
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> Warmest Regards,
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> Dawn Engle
> Executive Director
> PeaceJam Foundation
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> PeaceJam Foundation • 11200 Ralston Rd • Arvada, CO 80004 • Phone: (303) 455-2099
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Rigoberta Menchú
Nobel Peace Prize winner
Born 9 January 1959 (1959-01-09) (age 51)
Laj Chimel, Quiché, Guatemala
Rigoberta Menchú Tum (born 9 January 1959, Laj Chimel, El Quiché, Guatemala) is an indigenous Guatemalan, of the K'iche' Maya ethnic group. Menchú has dedicated her life to publicizing the plight of Guatemala's indigenous peoples during and after the Guatemalan Civil War (1960–1996), and to promoting indigenous rights in the country. She is the recipient of the 1992 Nobel Peace Prize and Prince of Asturias Award in 1998. She is the subject of the testimonial biography I, Rigoberta Menchú (1983) and the author of the autobiographical work, Crossing Borders. Later, American anthropologist David Stoll visited Guatemala and uncovered evidence that some of the claims in Menchú's Nobel Prize-winning autobiography were false.
Menchú is a UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador. She has also become a figure in indigenous political parties, running for President of Guatemala in 2007.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigoberta_Mench%C3%BA
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http://www.thepowerofcollectivewisdom.com/engle.htm
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I don't think she really belongs here. Engle is a political activist. I guess the wording of that announcement sounds kind of Nuagey. To me it sounds like Mayan leaders are hoping to use the interest in 2012 to urge people to transform the world. Certainly Menchu is no Nuager. She's actually a Catholic with some Marxist beliefs I think.
The way the announcement reads can make it sound like one is paying for a blessing, but you'd really be paying for meeting a Nobel Prize winner. I blame Naropa for the wording. Naropa has worked with exploiters, and I'd be happier if the event was held elsewhere.
Peacejam actually got a Nobel Prize nomination themselves.
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_6583372
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i have no idea how this event is any different than the others i've seen posted here regarding some spiritual leaders teaching about the 2012.. also, that's a big chunk of money.. 300 above the general admission to receive that "special blessing"..
i'm curious how or what or why this is any different, i don't see anyone saying about the other events, that the announcement reads like this or that.. but it really isn't.. instead, i've seen that if the announcement for event reads like it, then, Al, you and others here critique the announcement. why should this be any different?
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i have no idea how this event is any different than the others i've seen posted here regarding some spiritual leaders teaching about the 2012.. also, that's a big chunk of money.. 300 above the general admission to receive that "special blessing"..
i'm curious how or what or why this is any different, i don't see anyone saying about the other events, that the announcement reads like this or that.. but it really isn't.. instead, i've seen that if the announcement for event reads like it, then, Al, you and others here critique the announcement. why should this be any different?
I agree with critter. We take the notice, flyer, e-mail, advertisement about the event at face-value; we don't try to second guess what the organizer's intentions were when he wrote it. How can we "blame Naropa for the wording"?
Also, I've seen any association with Naropa used to discredit people before. With Peacejam, it's just unfortunate that they decided to hold the event at Naropa? Poor judgement?
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The wording is so strange. Rigoberta Menchu has flat out refused either in interviews or in her books to discuss traditions or ceremonies of her people. I find it beyond belief that she would participate in something where those traditions or ceremonies were exploited in this way. I'm hoping the way that it's being packaged is the problem, rather than the event itself.
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How can we "blame Naropa for the wording"?
Also, I've seen any association with Naropa used to discredit people before. With Peacejam, it's just unfortunate that they decided to hold the event at Naropa? Poor judgement?
Naropa being fraud central makes it perfectly legit to suspect their involvement likely makes them the ones to blame. Neither Menchu nor Engle and Peacejam have any history of anything like this. Just the opposite.
In fact I have a hard time thinking of anything good Naropa has ever done. Seems their carelessness and lack of ethics extends to things other than hosting exploiters.
http://thesycamore.org/fbiinvestigatingfraudatnaropa.php Embezzlement, sloppy accounting
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/trungpa.asp Buddhist leaders abusing their own followers
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Ok, so what I'm gathering is that the people involved/mentioned in the OP ( peacejam, Engle & Menchu ) are people who are known to some members here and are trusted.
So, the "leading Indigenous Mayan Spiritual Elders" whoever they are.. I guess they don't have names.. are OK too, and learning to be a lightbearer from this event is legit as well as some newly revealed 2012 prophecy is also legit.
It's getting harder and harder to tell the fakes from the real ones.. but I believe I have read this scenario on this board before as well.. where someone is saying it's not the participants fault what the host and advertiser does.
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Ok, so what I'm gathering is that the people involved/mentioned in the OP ( peacejam, Engle & Menchu ) are people who are known to some members here and are trusted.
So, the "leading Indigenous Mayan Spiritual Elders" whoever they are.. I guess they don't have names.. are OK too, and learning to be a lightbearer from this event is legit as well as some newly revealed 2012 prophecy is also legit.
It's getting harder and harder to tell the fakes from the real ones.. but I believe I have read this scenario on this board before as well.. where someone is saying it's not the participants fault what the host and advertiser does.
Your second paragraph doesn't necessary follow from the first. Those particular things seem fairly un-legit.
I'd like to know where the money is actually going, as well.
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I think what critter meant was that no one seems too concerned about this event, because Dawn Engle and Rigoberta Menchu Tum are legit. In fact, Al's comment, "I don't think she really belongs here. Engle is a political activist.", would lead us to believe there's no problem with what they're doing. The only possible problem might be their association with Naropa. Even that could work to their advantage, since we can excuse the wording in their announcement, blaming it on Naropa. I don't agree with that. Engle, as the Director of PeaceJam, should have final say on any advertising.
Legitimate people sometimes work with frauds and exploiters. Sometimes they remain true to their beliefs. Sometimes they are swayed, their beliefs and values change; they can no longer be seen as legit. I'm not saying that's what has happened here, but it is a possibility. Something that bears watching.
We all know that spiritual is not the only kind of exploitation. If someone is using their status to change public opinion, to gain a political advantage, that's exploitation. If someone is using their status to separate people from their money, that's economic exploitation. If someone is using their status to become intimate with someone, that's sexual exploitation. I think we need to be concerned with all types.
Engle may be a political activist; PeaceJam may have honorable goals; Menchu may have won a Nobel Peace Prize . . . As Al pointed out, Naropa is "fraud central". Why are they working together?
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If the issue here is that Naropa is fraud central, then this might not be a topic that necessarily need to be under "research needed," because it needs to be "researched" per say, but it might need to remain here in order to get the word out on the matter so people will boycott it.
True, sometimes good people end up working with bad ones, and that can often be because they don't know any better.
So if the only real issue here is the dealings with Naropa, that whatever can be done to make people not attend this event, or even what can be done to get the good people to break ties with Naropa should be something looked at as well.
Now if an organization other then Naropa was doing this event, found not be having any dealings with exploitation etc, then I would say the money really can't be an issue. Speakers, organizations etc, even if good native ones can't operate on love and good thoughts alone. True $300 is very very steep, but that does not necessarily mean what is going on is bad, other then the fact that in this case it is Naropa.
So maybe the thing here really to do, is get the word out that in this event, Naropa is somebody they should not be working with?????
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That's how I'm seeing it. This isn't a 'fraud' necessarily, in the sense that it's to the bone bullshit. However, it IS disturbing and it bears keeping an eye on.
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Just because PeaceJam, Engle, and Menchu are legit, have all done good things in the past, doesn't excuse what's going on now. It doesn't excuse their laying down with frauds and exploiters. It's not just because this event is being sponsored by Naropa, taking place at their facility. This is more than legitimate people working with frauds and exploiters. As critter pointed out, they (PeaceJam, Engle, Menchu) are selling ceremony. For an extra $300 you can meet the Mayan Spiritual Elders and receive a "special blessing". I understand charging admission for this event, $195; but then they add that for $495 you receive VIP tickets, an audience with the Spiritual Elders, and a blessing. Yep, that's selling ceremony. Workshops where you'll learn to be a "Light Bearer". That smacks of new age rhetoric.
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I'm wondering if P, E and M are there for unrelated topics? Could be this Naropa is setting up an event, but P, E, and M may be one step removed, as I'm sure they have 'people' who contract for them.. but, since they are going to be there Naropa is drawing in with their names. It would be interesting to see what they think, if they are with this or if their names are being exploited without them really knowing it.
@bls.. thank you.
@Yiwah.. i was trying to point out the gap between the two.. one being considered legit people, but being listed on a type of program that would otherwise have the board raising red flags .. and you're right.. it doesn't follow.. it doesn't make sense they are involved with people learning to be 'light bearers'..
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From the PeaceJam website . . .
http://www.peacejam.org/home.aspx
(http://www.peacejam.org/webfiles/link_peacejamlogo.gif)
PeaceJam Events
2012 Revealed with Rigoberta Menchu Tum
http://www.peacejam.org/events/2012-Revealed-with-Rigoberta-Menchu-Tum-320.aspx
(http://www.peacejam.org/eventphotos/2010%20Revealed.JPG)
NOTE: In order to register for this event through our website, you must register an account on peacejam.org. Register an account by clicking the "register an account on peacejam.org" button to the right. If you do not want to do this, please order tickets from us by phone by calling 303-455-2099.
Join us for a powerful day of blessing and initiation from leading Mayan Spiritual Elders and Rigoberta Menchú Tum. This truly unique and powerful event will explore the true meaning of 2012 from the Mayan perspective and offer participants the opportunity to learn how to be a "Light Bearer" in these trying times, as well as the opportunity to attend workshops led by Mayan Spiritual Teachers from Guatemala.
In order to register for this event through our website, you must register an account on peacejam.org. Register an account by clicking the "register an account on peacejam.org" button to the right. If you do not want to do this, please order tickets from us by phone by calling 303-455-2099.
This event will take place in Boulder at Naropa University's Nalanda Campus and is open to all ages.
General Admission Tickets are $195 and can be purchased through this website.
VIP Sponsorship Tickets can be purchased for $495 by calling the PeaceJam office and speaking to Ryan Hanschen at 303-455-2099.
Click Here to Download an Event Flier
Event Type: Official PJ Event
Start Time: Thursday, July 08, 2010 at 8:30 AM
End Time: Thursday, July 08, 2010 at 4:30 PM
Event Fee: $195.00
Location: Naropa University Nalanda Camppus 6287 Arapahoe Avenue
Boulder, Colorado
United States
80302
This is as much PeaceJam, Engle, and Menchu as it is Naropa, maybe more.
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Advertised in Denver Westword (http://www.westword.com/events/peacejam-presents-rigoberta-menchanduacute-tum-1496884/)
Event
PeaceJam Presents Rigoberta Menchú Tum
Thu., July 8, 9:00am-4:00pm
Naropa University Nalanda Campus
Price: $195, $495 VIP
http://www.peacejam.org
The Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and other leading Mayan spiritual leaders participate in a ceremony of blessing, initiation and day of workshops.
Location
Naropa University Nalanda Campus
63rd St. and Arapahoe Ave.; Boulder CO
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YouTube - PeaceJam: 2012 Revealed
- 57 sec - Jun 4, 2010
Join PeaceJam for a powerful day of blessing and initiation from leading ... This event will take place in Boulder at Naropa University's ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nt3T3y-Taw - more videos »
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It seems to me the best way to get to the bottom of this is to ask questions to Peacejam itself. I doubt Naropa would give a straight answer, and their whole history says they frankly don't give a damn what NDNs think. Menchu is a legislator (congresswoman?) in Guatemala, but I doubt contacting her office there would be easy.
Peacejam has a thread on this I encourage others to speak up at. I'm going to post a message there myself.
http://www.peacejam.org/index/topics/2012-Revealed-with-Rigoberta-Menchu-Tum-1544.aspx
You'll notice there's one person who mentioned some kind of exchange program they were on and Menchu was happy to explain Mayan worldviews, but nothing like ceremony. There's one clueless guy who says "Give us the Mayan secrets!" but he may be joking. It looks like some of the youth groups associated with Peacejam are being urged to fundraise so they can go there, much like youth groups fundraise to go to NASA or thye Smithsonian and so on.
I don't see any sign of Nuagers flocking to this. Or really any mention of the Mayan elders names. Perhaps Naropa is behind them. If so, how can we even be sure they actually are Mayan elders and not imposters like Carlos Barrios or Hunbatz Men/Carlos Mena Toto?
ETA: Here's what I posted at Peacejam.
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Hello, my name is Al Carroll. I'm a Native historian and activist. I'm one of the mods over at New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans (NAFPS). We investigate concerns about imposters who pose as Native medicine people and elders, as well as those New Agers who exploit Native traditions for profit.
We have some very strong concerns about this event with Rigoberta Menchu and unnamed Mayan elders. You can see our discussion here.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2744.0
Obviously Peacejam does quite a bit of good work, and Menchu is justly honored for her landmark and courageous work as a human rights activist and leader of her people.
For those reasons, we wonder why Peacejam and Menchu would associate with an institute with such an ugly history of exploitation and abuse as Naropa? Naropa has hired imposters who posed as Native healers and elders. It was abusive of the civil rights of Natives who objected to such travesties.
Our second concern is why is this event seemingly being marketed like a New Age seminar of ceremony selling? Why the pandering to New Age misconceptions with terms like "Mayan secrets" and "lightworkers" and "2012 revealed"? After all, the whole hype about the supposed end of the world in 2012 because of some alleged Mayan prophecy is patently false, and being sold by dubious characters like Hunbatz Men and Albert Villoldo and Halleman.
Worst of all, why does this event seem to be marketed as offering a blessing for a high price, hundreds of dollars per person? Pay to pray is deeply offensive to the overwhelming majority of Natives, including Mayans. If true, it would be a crass exploitation of Native spiritual traditions.
Finally, who are the Mayan elders supposedly giving out a blessing for cash? We have a hard time believing actual Mayan elders would do this. There are more than a few characters posing as Mayan spiritual leaders (eg Hunbatz Men). Naropa's involvement only makes us wonder.
Again, this is no criticism of Peacejam's generally good work, but we hope you will deal with these deeply troubling issues. Would you sell a meeting with Bishop Tutu as "Come get a blessing from a Christian minister for 300 bucks! Learn real African secrets!"
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I know next to nothing about PeaceJam, however I notice with interest that one of their partner organisations is the Art of Living Foundation, a controversial group considered to be a cult by some.
a few links
http://www.diwala.com/233/is-sri-sri-a-fraud-fraud-things-certainly-look-that-way/
http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2008/02/01/the-the-great-great-sri-sri-ngo-ngo-scam-scam/
http://guruphiliac.lefora.com/2008/04/12/me-and-sri-sri/
It seems to me that Peacejam is not terribly discerning about who they work with.
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I see that Dawn replied to your post Al, and she provided her phone number so you can call to have your questions answered. Why didn't she just answer them on the board there so everyone can see? Maybe she thought it would distract or something, and I suppose anyone could call her and ask for the answers.. just, if a few people call, well, why answer multiple times when she could just answer once for all to see.
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I called the PeaceJam office this evening and spoke with Kate. The Mayan Spiritual Elders who are participating in this event are Don Pedro Yac Nonj and Dona Faviana Cochoy Alva. (Since these two are Mayan, I'm not sure why they're using Spanish titles.)
I told her that I understood charging admission to the event, but questioned why VIP tickets were $300 more. What do you get for that $300? You get to meet the Mayan Spiritual Elders and receive a special blessing? She replied that everyone would get to meet Don Pedro and Dona Faviana; they would be conducting some of the workshops, along with Rigoberta Menchu. However, those with VIP tickets would get to spend additional time with the Elders and receive a blessing. I asked her if she knew what that was called; she didn't understand what I meant. My reply, "Charging $300 for a blessing . . . That's called selling ceremony. It's wrong. You should never pay to pray." She stated that she was sorry I felt that way and added that I wasn't the first person to say that. I told her I was sure they'd hear it again and again as it is never okay to sell ceremony.
I expressed my disappointment in what they were doing. From everything I've seen, PeaceJam is a worthwhile organization, working on a good cause. They will lose credibility; they will no longer be seen as legitimate. Selling ceremony is never okay. She said that was never their intention. I said, maybe not but that's what you're doing. You know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It doesn't matter what your intentions are, it's the outcome that matters. When you charge $300 for a blessing, you're selling ceremony. I told her they really needed to think about what they were doing.
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This was my response to Dawn. Hopefully not too late. Time's been taken up quite a bit with grading exams.
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Hello Dawn,
I would prefer we NOT discuss this matter by phone.
It's been my experience this is what is generally done to try and sweep a matter under the rug, avoid any discussion in public.
I instead hope you answer my concerns here, on the board, in full view for everyone to see.
Another member of NAFPS, Bonnie, apparently did speak with a Peacejam member/employee named Kate.
Bonnie confirms that Kate admitted they have faced other, similar objections to this event for its seeming ceremony-selling.
The two Mayan elders Kate mentioned are Don Pedro Yac Nonj and Dona Faviana Cochoy Alva. What I found online confirms to me that they are not imposters. That certainly is good to know.
However there is still the very disturbing matter of how this meeting is being marketed. It is being pushed as Pay to Pray, ceremony selling, which is very offensive and disturbing to Natives, including Mayans.
The advertising uses New Age buzzwords with nothing to do with Native or Mayan traditions, "lightworkers" etc. Really, how hard would it be to change that? How hard would it be to make it clear the money is for the meeting and NOT to sell a blessing?
There's also the disturbing association with Naropa, who have a history of promoting imposters and contempt for Native traditions. That should not surprise anyone, given that Naropa was founded by one of the more notoriously abusive gurus.
And another member of NAFPS pointed this out to me, that Peacejam is also associating with another cult, Art of Living Foundation, founded by cult leader Sri Sri Ngo.
The wording of your advertising is something that can be changed quickly and easily. The association with two abusive institutions, one of them an outright cult, is something Peacejam hopefully will come to grips with. Seemingly there is some serious problems with oversight.