Author Topic: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"  (Read 23294 times)

Offline Defend the Sacred

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"Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« on: November 05, 2012, 12:04:02 am »
Idiot newagers vandalize sacred site, and are so dumb they film it and post it on YouTube.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/11/02/vandals-admit-muffin-crystal-thingie-assault-at-serpent-mounds.html

Offline ShadowDancer

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2012, 03:36:33 am »
What the F?  :o

I did a search on Orgonite.  I hadn't heard the term before.  I am appalled. 

My skeptical side is shaking its head at the acceptance by people of such a delusional idea as planting resin embedded with metal filings and quartz crystals into an earthwork for energy realignment. 

I seriously hope these people are caught and prosecuted.

Autumn

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 06:10:21 pm »
So sad.  If they are the "Starseeds" then we are in serious trouble.

This is their YouTube site:  http://www.youtube.com/user/dero7/videos?view=0

And this is what they posted there:

"PRIVACY NOTICE

Warning--any person and/or institution and/or Agent and/or Agency of any governmental structure. including but not limited to the World Government also using or monitoring/using this website or any of its associated websites, you do NOT have my permission to utilize any of my profile information nor any of the content contained herein including, but not limited to my videos, and/ or the comments made about my videos or any other "digital content" posted on my profile."

Autumn

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2012, 12:04:00 am »
From this site:  http://www.liminalworlds.com/unite-the-collective.html

"Unite the Collective

The video below was made by someone named Ryan, who has a large collection of videos on YouTube under the username Dero7. He’s part of a group called Unite the Collective, who are lightworkers involved in various spiritual and educational activities. One of the things they do is travel around the world and open energy centers at sacred spots. If you want to know more about this, you’ll have to watch more of the videos :)

I study various philosophical and metaphysical systems, but I’m impressed with the energy and conviction Ryan displays in his videos. If you start watching them, it may at first seem a little farfetched, but if you’re interested in topics like 2012, ascension, extraterrestrials and various political and economic changes in the coming years, I highly recommend following this Youtube channel.

Unite the Collective also has a Facebook page. They also sell charged wands that can be used for energy or magical work at Galactic Wands."


His name is Ryan DeRouen and this is his website:  http://ryanderouen.com/RYANDEROUEN/RYANDEROUEN.COM.html

Check out the photos on the bottom of the page: http://ryanderouen.com/RYANDEROUEN/Photos.html



Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 09:19:18 pm »
Orgonite is a terrible thing. These people are suffocating rocks/crystals inside of this resin and it's absolutely one of the most stupidest things ever. I hope they prosecute these people and make them unbury and remove all of the things they buried there.

That "privacy notice" thing is also stupid.. who posts that on a public site with a video? Does this mean no one should "utilize" (watch) the video? And who thinks they can prohibit anyone from "utilizing" comments posted by other people?

This kind of thing makes me sick. I met a guy a couple years ago, who gave me this orgonite matter with some rocks/crystals stuck in it.. I hated the thing and all I wanted to do was smash it up to get those rocks out of it.. He too thought that planting (burying) them around cell towers would do some magical thing. After what I told him about what I think/feel of all this, he took the orgonite thingy back, because, he said, he thought I would try to smash it apart. I kind of wish I hadn't said what I'd said so I could have kept that thing and gotten those rocks out.. How would THOSE people like to be put inside some resin and suffocate in there.. I absolutely HATE this orgonite thing!! 
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline educatedindian

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2014, 03:34:21 pm »
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/06/06/crazy-theories-threaten-serpent-mound-demean-native-heritage-149733
Crazy Theories Threaten Serpent Mound, Demean Native Heritage
Mary Annette Pember 6/6/13

Is it home to a mine for spaceship fuel? Could it be a portal to another dimension, ready to be activated? Is it a place of hidden paranormal powers? Was it a safe spot to be when the 2012 Mayan prophecy predicted the end of the world? Is it an ancient indigenous homage to the summer and winter solstice?

Officially Serpent Mound is the largest surviving prehistoric effigy mound in the world, but in this stranger-­than-fiction story, there are ardent supporters for all of the claims listed above, and many more.

According to the Ohio Historical Society, the organization that manages the site in rural in southern Ohio, the mound is over 1,300 feet long, and clearly resembles an uncoiling serpent. Their website says the original purpose of the mound is unknown but was probably built by people from the Fort Ancient culture who lived in the area from 1000 to 1500 A.D. Bradley Lepper, archaeologist for the society, reports that the head of Serpent Mound appears to align with the rising sun during the summer solstice, and since the nearby Newark Earthworks have detailed astronomical alignments built into them, it is reasonable to assume that Serpent Mound does as well. Generations of researchers agree with that theory, but the intent of those who built the serpent remains a mystery. Lepper posits that Serpent Mound may have been a shrine to a spiritual power.

The mound is on the National Register of Historic Places and is being considered as a U.S. nominee to the UNESCO World Heritage sites. According to Glenna J. Wallace, chief of the Eastern Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma, the Shawnee consider Serpent Mound a sacred site. The Eastern Shawnee were originally from Ohio but left the area along with several other tribes as part of the federal Indian Removal Act of 1830. Nine tribes removed from Ohio settled on reservations in Oklahoma; by about 1850, most had officially been “removed.” Today, there are no federally recognized tribes in Ohio. “Although we don’t claim that we built Serpent Mound, historically we respected and protected the various mounds and earthworks in Ohio,” says Wallace.

In recent years, Serpent Mound has become a mecca for New Agers. A story in the The Columbus Dispatch last year offered a glimpse into that world. The headline for the story declared, vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at serpent mound. According to the story, a group of people from the organization Unite the Collective posted a video showing people burying “what may be” hundreds of small muffin-shaped devices called orgonites in the mounds, hoping they were “[lifting] the vibration of the earth so we can all rise together.” They describe themselves as Light Warriors.

Orgonites are homemade objects composed of resin and bits of metal and crystal. A number of websites claim orgonites draw in negative energy and emit positive energy. In the 1930s, the controversial Austrian inventor Wilhelm Reich “discovered” orgone; he claimed it was the life energy that fueled all living things. He created and sold “orgone accumulators” he claimed could concentrate and direct this life energy. There were a few skeptics: In 1954, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration declared orgone accumulators and “orgonomy”—the study of orgone—to be a sham, and Reich was tried for making false and misleading claims. He was sentenced to two years in jail, and the Food and Drug Administration ordered all accumulators rented or owned by him destroyed. Despite that bit of unpleasantness, orgonomy continues to have a devoted following.

The burying of those “crystal thingies” was just the latest in a long list of unusual New Age activities at Serpent Mound. Authorities from the Ohio State Historical Society have been tolerant of these doings so long as no damage has been done to the mound. The activities of the self-described light warriors, however, went too far. According to the Courier piece, Unite the Collective placed a video on YouTube that showed several people running and jumping over the mounds, and declared in the video (entitled “Serpent Mound Reactivation 2012”) that they spent several days planting orgonites in Serpent Mound in order to “reactivate” it. The link to the YouTube video has since been taken down from the Unite the Collective website.


The New Age fascination with the mounds dates back to the so-called Harmonic Convergence in 1987. (AP)

The New Age fascination with the mounds dates back to the so-called Harmonic Convergence in 1987. (AP)
After seeing the video, the Ohio State Historical Society began working with the Adams County Sheriff’s department to seek the arrest and prosecution of the vandals. “We take any vandalism and desecration of historic sites extremely seriously,” said Burt Logon, executive director of the Historical Society in an interview with the Dispatch. “We are appalled at the irresponsible behavior and deliberate vandalism. Ohio’s history must be preserved and protected for future generations.”

In the video, the light warriors reportedly claimed to have buried hundreds of orgonites in the mound. So far, however, authorities have found only a few. According to Lepper, the society is planning to use a police dog to locate the remaining orgonites. “Our hope is that prosecuting these [vandals] will prevent others from doing these sorts of activities,” he said.

According to Serpent Mound gift-shop manager Megan McCane, burying or placing items in and around the mound has gone on for quite some time. Volunteers and workers routinely remove items placed in the mound. To discourage the burial of objects, workers have designated a place nearby for people to leave such offerings.

Lepper says various New Age ceremonies began in earnest at Serpent Mound around the time of the Harmonic Convergence in August 1987. Believers all over the world marked that event by gathering, chanting and meditating at various sites deemed powerful. “Thousands of people came to Serpent Mound during the convergence,” Lepper recalls.

Since then, numerous New Age ceremonies, gatherings and festivals have become popular events at Serpent Mound.

An Alien Gas Station?
Some of the extreme interpretations about why the mounds were built are supported by such unlikely sources as the History Channel, which ran a series, Ancient Aliens, that purports to prove extraterrestrial beings inhabited or visited Earth in ancient times. In 2011, the show featured Serpent Mound and offered evidence that allegedly shows that the site was a landing area for aliens, who frequently visited Serpent Mound to mine iridium, a rare element, to fuel their ships.

The show’s producers conducted numerous interviews with local experts as well as supporters of various New Age interpretations of the mounds, including Lepper, who now regrets participating. “The producers spent a long time interviewing me, but in the actual show they feature a seconds-long quote in which I say, ‘Serpent Mound must have been special,’ then they jump to another source saying that the mound was built by aliens.”

Local owner of the House of Phacops Museum Tom Johnson was presented in the show as an expert on both Serpent Mound and local Native people. In his interview, he says, “the Shawnee are convinced that space travelers are using Serpent Mound as a marker.”

The House of Phacops is a rock shop that offers trilobites [a local fossil] minerals and crystals for sale. Johnson is a former factory worker from Michigan, a trilobite enthusiast and an advocate for New Age activities at Serpent Mound. According to one of the Museum’s brochures, he also offers information about local travel to sacred places, including Serpent Mound. A local citizen’s organization, “Friends of Serpent Mound,” coordinates a number of events popular among New Age followers such as spring equinox and summer solstice celebrations. Events feature drumming, sweat lodges, healing ceremonies as well as presentations by authors such as Ross Hamilton who wrote The Mystery of Serpent Mound: In Search of the Alphabet of the Gods. According to the publisher’s online information, the book draws on historical, linguistic, archaeological, and occult sources in describing the secret knowledge hidden in the mound.

Sacred Destinations, a website dedicated to showcasing sacred places for “spiritual pilgrimage” features Serpent Mound among its more than 1,200 such sites. According to the website’s description, “Some New Age practitioners have suggested that Serpent Mound is patterned on the Little Dipper constellation, which could indicate a cosmic energy flow between heaven and earth. Others have analyzed the mounds (along with others in the area) for ley lines, which are believed to conduct healing energy between ancient sacred sites. New Age groups and individuals often use the site for meditation.”

A local healer who calls himself “Three Eagles” and claims Cherokee heritage frequently participates in New Age gatherings at the mound. Three Eagles, who took the name after seeing three eagles in one day, cuts negative energy away from people by making cutting motions close to the body with a large bowie knife. He claims to have been taught the skill by another man trained in Tibetan healing techniques who used Tibetan swords to cut away negative energy. Using a bowie knife, according to Three Eagles, makes the technique more Indian. Other demonstrations and workshops held at Serpent Mound examine alleged crop circles in the area and provide training in dowsing for water.

The Crystal Skull Festival brought people from around the world to Serpent Mound in 2011. The festival brought together 13 ancient crystal skulls at Serpent Mound in 2011 for a ceremony intended to ignite paranormal powers at the site. According to a story in The Columbus Dispatch, the ceremony also brought together several Mayan priests who were to discuss the end of the world prophesied by the Mayan calendar in 2012. Followers of the crystal skulls prophecy believe that the skulls are pre-Columbian Mesoamerican artifacts created by the Aztecs or Mayans and will exhibit paranormal powers if brought together in one place. Researchers such as Jane MacLaren Walsh, an anthropologist with the Smithsonian have found that the skulls likely were produced during the second half of the 19th century in Europe and Mexico. The skulls have no proven connection to any pre-Columbian culture she notes in an article in Archaeology magazine.

Longtime resident and earthworks enthusiast Geoffrey Sea noted something weirdly familiar about much of the terminology used by New Age groups—such as “intergalactic portals”—and the notion that secret elements were being mined at Serpent Mound. “Why do I know this?” wondered the local historian and researcher. “There is an element of cheesy science fiction that runs through all of this.” He finally realized that much of the New Age terms relating to Serpent Mound and the “light warriors” seems to come from the 1994 film Stargate. According to Sea, the film’s story line features space travelers who enter a giant portal that, once activated, zaps them across the galaxy, where they encounter an alien civilization that looks like ancient Egypt. The aliens are mining a secret element used to power space ships.

Mining for New Age Dollars
For economically depressed Adams County, cashing in on New Age interest in Serpent Mound could be lucrative. Recreating the area as a New Age travel destination could benefit the local economy. For instance, nearby Hocking Hills county has emerged as a travel destination in recent years. Similar to Adams, Hocking Hills’ economy offered little for residents in terms of jobs. Recently, however, Hocking Hills has recreated itself as the “Hot tub capital of the Midwest,” according to chamber of commerce materials. Hocking Hills is now home to many local businesses featuring popular vacation getaways in the form of cabins with hot tubs.

The New Age dollar would seem to be worth pursuing. According to a 2009 study conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 26 percent of American adults follow some sort of New Age practice or belief. The Unite the Collective website offers a number of orgonites and wands for sale, some for hundreds of dollars. Even the struggling nonprofit Arc of Appalachia, responsible for managing and funding the daily operations of Serpent Mound site, offers numerous New Age books for sale at the mound bookstore. Until recently, the shop also sold orgonites created by a local artist, but McCane says, “They really didn’t sell very well.”

Kenny Frost a Southern Ute citizen, has worked to protect sacred places for more than 20 years. He is a well-respected authority on Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act issues and law and frequently consults with state, federal and tribal governments. “The protection put down by Native people at sacred sites is still there. Non-Native people dig around and see what they can find; they may end up opening a Pandora’s box without knowing how to put spirits back,” he notes.

Native people, on the other hand, are taught to respect sacred places honoring them with simple prayer and respect.

The Old-Age Perspective
Ironically, Serpent Mound’s strange role as repository for outlandish activities and beliefs may be partially due to the lack of Natives in Ohio. Since there is no public information tying Serpent Mound to contemporary Native tribes, many people freely bring their interpretations to the mound, notes Marti L. Chaatsmith, Comanche, director of the nearby Newark Earthworks Center of Ohio at the Ohio State University at Newark. She agrees with Lepper and Wallace that an explanation of the importance of sacred places for Native peoples as well as descriptions of appropriate ways to treat these sites are sorely needed there, and scoffs at stories of space aliens at Serpent Mound: “Serpent Mound was not built by aliens or lost tribes; it was built by American Indians.”

Lepper also believes that ancestors of American Indians built Serpent Mound and the nearby Newark Earthworks. Although contemporary tribes have no specific stories relating to the mound, it doesn’t mean their ancestors didn’t build them—he says it “is tragic that dislocation severed their ties to the mounds and earthworks.”

Members of the Eastern Shawnee tribe are fighting to reconnect with their homeland and work with organizations like the Newark Earthworks Center and Ohio Historical Society to create educational programming that can be presented to the public at venues like Serpent Mound according to Wallace.
Although many people purport to know about the history of the Shawnee in Ohio and seek to represent them, they have little information about the tribe today Wallace explains. Local groups with limited connection to the Shawnee often misrepresent facts about the tribe such as Johnson’s claim that the Shawnee believe that space travelers used Serpent Mound as a marker.

The Earthworks Center is hosting a conference this summer during which Wallace and a group of Eastern Shawnee people will return to their homelands. During the visit they plan to share information about their spiritual and cultural connections with the Earthworks with the public. Wallace, Lepper and Chaatsmith hope they can offer an important indigenous perspective on such sites. “The Shawnee are ancestrally related to the builders of the mounds and can speak for them on their behalf,” says Lepper, who argues that excluding indigenous perspectives and input in treatment of such sites seems damaging and demeaning to Native peoples.

“These types of New Age activities”—like burying orgonites—“do indeed concern us, but much of our struggle here in Oklahoma has focused on our physical survival,” Wallace says. “We are working with authorities in Ohio to preserve these sacred sites. We are following the legacy of our ancestors who respected and preserved the earthworks.”

For Lepper, growing New Age interest in Serpent Mound presents a double-edged sword. He acknowledges the untapped tourism potential presented by New Age visitors and is pleased with the growing interest in the mound. Activities that include walking on and burying things in the mound and conducting unusual ceremonies, however, only serve to trivialize the importance of a sacred indigenous site—“Not only do such activities damage the mound, they demean the connection that Indigenous Peoples have to this sacred site.”

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2015, 03:01:45 pm »
Hello everyone -

All of you need to understand a few things.

First off, the Friends of Serpent Mound are not these people.

The Friends of Serpent Mound have graciously invited and allowed both me and well respected archaeologists to speak at the summer solstice. I have used those opportunities to pass on what is known, and I have used those opportunities to point others in a better direction.

Second, the Friends of Serpent Mound have been looking for someone to bring a native presence to the site by holding a powwow nearby. Several years ago at the summer solstice event  I met a person who very much wanted to do the same thing, but I have not met up with him over the last several years.

Third, Brad Lepper is with the Ohio Historical Society. Over decades OHS has done its best to limit Native access to the ceremonial centers in Ohio. They have done their best to avoid NAGPRA issues, and now hold at least 6 sets of known Shawnee remains in storage.

Fourth, many local officials are pretty fed up with OHS's handling of the ceremonial centers and management of artifacts. It is pretty much universally desired that these function be taken over by Ohio's Department of Natural Resources. whiich will be responsible under both NAGPRA and NARFA; OHS is not.

Thus OHS works as hard as it can to block knowledge of the Andaste (Wendigo, Wedigo, Nuhallo. Tsughul) and the Shawnee and Cherokee relations with them. While they know lots about Hopewell and Adena cultures, they know very very little about the peoples whose remains those artifacts are - and thus they promote all of the "mysteries" about Serpent Mound.

The archaeologist working at the University of Cincinnati are much better, as are archaeologists working with other institutions.

Fifth, Adams County is pretty poor, and the mounds and the tourism to them are a resource they wish to maximize.

Sixth, the electro/magnetic field at the mounds is strong enough to confuse migrating birds, short out electronic systems, and affect brain function.










Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2015, 02:26:32 am »
Here is what I present at Serpent Mound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQm8AC66bSE

along with slides of real things.

I am not responsible for the later addition of the Mormon graphic of the fellow with a sword, or the other graphics in this video.


Offline earthw7

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2015, 12:29:37 pm »
you i can tell you about those mounds from my people
In Spirit

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2015, 04:31:20 pm »
Perhaps Mr Grondine deserves his own thread at the boards here – not for selling ceremony, but for presenting distorted versions of pseudo-history mixed with conspiracy theory basically claiming early Euro settlement in North America. This is one variant of the same old, same old, with various peoples being 'blamed' for migrating to (North) America, like Phoenicians, 'Nephillim', ice-age Solutréen dwellers from Europe, Welsh, etc.

In googling Mr Grondine, I found he is getting characterised as a 'space reporter', or sometimes 'veteran space reporter' at several websites or in magazine articles. Now, English is not my first language, so I haven't the faintest what a 'space reporter' may be. If they spoke of a 'spaced out reporter', this would be a different kettle of fish, and probably far more apt...

Mr Grondine also wrote a lenghty volume on impacts of comets etc and their effects on the Americas and their populations which he is eager to sell, so he also links to it from his profile here at NAFPS. This book is pseudo-history, too:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/atlantis-ho/Content?oid=923072

Quote
E.P. Grondine is a self-published author who came to Kempton a few years ago, after Childress agreed to distribute his book Man and Impact in the Americas, about the effects of asteroids and comets on the evolution of the first inhabitants of the western hemisphere. "David Hatcher Childress is the most successful publisher of fringe literature in the United States," Grondine writes in an e-mail. "And I wanted to learn how he did it.“
Emphasis mine

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Impact-Americas-Grondine-E/dp/0977615200/sr=8-1/qid=1164074154/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-0869018-0179345?ie=UTF8&s=books

Man and Impact in the Americas Paperback – 2005 by Grondine, E. P. (Author)
Quote
In this book veteran space reporter E.P. GRONDINE surveys the effects of ASTEROID AND COMET IMPACTS on man in the Americas. The book includes an Introduction to the topic, and chapters on the effects of asteroid and comet impacts on man's evolution; how and when man crossed to the Americas; the impact events at the end of the last Ice Age; the arrival in North America of the Red Paint Peoples and the appearance of Copper Trading Giants; accounts from the Mayan records of the impacts at Rio Cuarto in Argentina and of the ensuing climate collapse; the accounts of the Maya and other peoples of the Great Atlantic Mega-Tsunami, and a survey of that tsunami's effects on man in the Americas; the Six Nations' eye-witness accounts of "Hopewell" societies, their crops, and their astronomy; the arrival of Comet Encke near the Earth in 536 CE and the ensuing climate collapse in the Americas; How, where, and why the Mississippians emerged; the smaller impacts at Key Marco, Florida, Genessee, New York, and in the Bald Mountains of Tennessee; eye witness accounts of the lives of the "Mississippians"; the migrations of the Little Ice Age and the end of the "Mississippians"; and the First Peoples' accounts of the arrival of the Europeans. Written using the First Peoples' own accounts and their remains, the book includes a brief TRAVEL GUIDE to their sites, along with photographs or maps of several key sites, and a small MAP of the principal trade routes in southeast North America. The book includes adaptations into easy to read modern English of the FULL TEXTS of: David Cusick's SKETCHES OF THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF THE SIX NATIONS; The Chief of the Guardians of the Temple's account of THE ANCIENT WORD OF THE NATCHEZ; Tenskwatawa, Bluejacket, Black Hoof, James Clark, Nancy Sky THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF THE SHAWNEE; THE KUSHITA TALE OF THE ANCESTORS; and THE WALUM OLUM of the Lenape.
Emphasis mine

One of the reviews comments:

Quote
He suggests long-term traffic via canoes between Europe, Africa and the Americas, "red-haired giants" (the real "Goliath?) mining copper for centuries around the Great Lakes, and exporting it to Africa via canoe, and many other unfamiliar ideas. This book was self-published by Mr. Grondine ...
Emphasis mine


Then Mr Grondine provided us with a link to a YT video of an interview he gave, explaining that this was the stuff he will be giving a lecture on at the fake Shawnee festival. Talking about 'spaced out'...

The video is introduced like this:
Quote
Did Giants build the ancient mounds in the United States? Many people think that the mounds were created by Nephilims mentioned in the bible. E.P. (Ed) Grondine, author of the book "Man And Impact In The Americas" explains more about the mound builders called Andaste or Susquehannock.

Basically, Mr Grondine speaks about a population of giants by the name of „Andaste aka Susquehannock“. Anthropologists, according to EPG, were astonished when excavating giant skeletons of between 6 and 7 feet, sometimes up to 8 feet. This population allegedly survived several thousands of years on American soil and were only wiped out as late as 1676. EPG claims there were direct eye-witness reports asserting these people were about 7 feet tall. When the interviewer interrupts with the questions that reports even speak of 8 feet and more and was this normal for the Andaste, EPG's reply is 'Yes, this was normal'.

EPF further continues to describe the Andaste claiming they were into cannibalism, child sacrifice, torture, and greed, 'they claimed far more resources than needed and … anybody they caught, they tortured to death'. However, says EPG, 'this is not the Native American ways', but 'we're not sure' whether they 'allowed' Native neighbours to live on.

The interviewer then remarks we won't see any giant skeletons at all in the museums. EPG explains that e.g. the Carnegie in Pittsburgh had excavation reports but 'what happened to their skeletons, I don't know'. On the other hand he claims that 'all the Native peoples remember these guys' and 'the Ho-Chunk fought them, the Ojibwe fought them, Five Nations fought them, the Shawnee fought them, the Cherokee fought them, the Choctaw-Chickasaw knew them [and] fought them'.

EPG then explains 'Finally, a small part of them intermarried with the Osage, and if you ever saw an Osage drum...'. He also claims that part of the giants' culture survived in Osage culture. These remarks are flanked by newspaper items speaking of the exceptional tallness of the Osage – tallest Indians in North America, or so.

If EPG by now got you puzzled how come there is this one ethnic group differing so much from the other peoples in their environment, he's going to answer that, too.... : tadaaaaah:

According to EPG, this was a people originally inhabiting the shores of the Black Sea. Now, when there was an alleged Holocene comet impact [I did not check this, so I prefer to say alleged], they migrated from their former area which became flooded by the effects of that impact. This ethnic group, EPG claims, had an advanced level of technology. They eventually made it to the Atlantic coast (European side, that is) and from there set out to North America. This, EPG says, took place about 8,000-something BC, 'so we can trace them'.
'Couple of items of their technology are very much advanced – straight edges on stone tools, they bring that over from Europe'. They also brought that to Africa 'when they passed through the strait of Gibraltar. What is also characteristic – and we just realized – is their use of plinths, and these are showing up at Andaste sites'.

Not end of interview, but end of video.

So you followed EPG's description of who he thinks the moundbuilders were up to this point – and now for a serious blow: Not a word of it is true. It's all BS – garbage – fantasy --- in one word: pseudo-history.

Let's start having a look at things over at Europe. However, we don't have do go back to 8,000-something, just to about 5,500 BCE when melting ice and raising sea levels resulted in breaking the Bosporus (between Europe and Turkey, right were Istanbul is situated). Considerable amounts of water then splashed into the Black Sea which at that time had a lower level (apparently it did not get as much melt water as the Mediterranean had, plus the Mediterranean got water from the Atlantic, too). Consequently, its sea level rose, too, flooding the former shore areas. Sea level today is about 90 or 100 ms higher in the Black Sea than it was prior to 5,500. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Black_Sea#History  )

No impact, no comet – melt water. Not 8,000-whatever, but 5,500 BCE.

What's even more fatal to Mr Grondine's fantasies is: anthropologists and archeologists haven't excavated any giants in that area either. There were excavations and underwater research which even found traces of earlier settlements around the Black Sea, but none of the remnants suggest the existence of any giants there. Tough sh*t, innit.

Mr Grondine unfortunately is not too specific during that interview regarding the exact area these giants lived in, and the Wikipedia article lists the states bordering on the Black Sea today, so some details re an exact or assumed place would be nice to hear. He is similarly taciturn – at least in this video – regarding just how the giants crossed the Atlantic. In 8,000 BCE, as well as in 5,500 BCE, we're well prior to the existence of sails. Not of boats, though, but this would mean a voyage of about 5,000 kms roughly, more or less happily paddling away with no fresh water accessible except for rainfalls, no plants to be gathered, no game to be hunted, and you got women, children, and old persons on your hands to take care of, too. Remember – the ice had gone, no paddling along any ice shield, or with a lower sea level which might have exposed a few small islands resp mountains of the Atlantic Ridge. And let's not forget about another minor detail: not knowing where they might end up, whether there was any continent or whatever they would end up at.

But anyway, they miraculously did make it over to North America which also does not happen to be the shortest way over from the strait of Gibraltar, or the easiest which would take you to Mesoamerika. Going through the strait of Gibraltar in canoes from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic might also been quite some task, given the currents, but we won't let get stupid facts in the way of a sensation, now, would we. So the giants do make it over to North America and settle down. Sort of, because apparently their environment seems to have been somewhat hostile. Granted, a newly arrived population busting in and torturing and eating captives won't have been welcomed with arms wide open. Still, in Mr Grondine's mind, they successfully survived some 9,500 years. With the only intermarrying happening was with the Osage. Plus they built a few mounds to leave as their legacy. Which introduces quite a racist streak into the picture: 'of course', ndns were too daft to build mounds, that needed 'technically advanced Euros'. Duh! That's what you can get done equipping your stone tools with  straight edges! : sarcasm off :

Needless to say, the theory of a giant 'race' of migrated mound builders is put forward e.g. by minds not quite grounded strictly on science but on fantasy, pseudo-history, and conspiracy theories, like the persons maintaining sites like „atlantis-research“, and more pseudo-scientific and/or conspiracy theorist sites. Apparently, since Mr Grondine has been reinvited for lectures year after year at the Ohio festival, it is also what organisers and audience welcome. But what an event: you get fake Shawnee listening to lectures on fake redhaired giant mount building refugees from the Black Sea with of course advanced technology (why, they're Euros, aren't they!).

Mentioning this, I am also curious as to why Mr Grondine believes all his migrant giants were red-haired. Red hair does occur in Europe in a fairly small percentage of the population, and even in Ireland you won't find an entirely red-haird population. So WTF should a people living far more to the south around the Black Sea (or whereever precisely we should be looking for their alleged homeland) be all red-haired?

Plus that the use of copper was no Euro privilege - ndns used it too. But how to claim these Euro migrants - as Mr Grondine apparently does in his book - also exported the copper to Africa using canoes *and* keep a straight face, is beyond me. Then again, Mr Grondine also seems to claim he was a historian. Well, TF he is. He hasn't even been introduced to history's lowest ranking scholar, one gentleman answering to the name of Jack Excrement.


Offline AClockworkWhite

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2015, 03:44:25 pm »
I agree. EP Grondine should have a thread in Frauds just for the lunacy he spreads regarding things he has no clue about. The only difference between he and James Arthur Ray is that EP hasn't killed anyone. The false/fake/uninformed content he shares and makes MONEY off of (vbeng paid to speak at mound events) is a total joke.
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2015, 01:53:43 pm »
Hi Ingebourg -

Much of what  you say I said and say,
I have never said and do not say.

As I have had people imitate me before,
I am very interested to know exactly where you got this from.

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2015, 02:30:19 pm »
Much of what  you say I said and say,
I have never said and do not say.

As I have had people imitate me before,
I am very interested to know exactly where you got this from.

I beg your pardon?
On June 11, 2015, you provided the link to a YT video - see your post in reply # 7 above - and introduced it saying:
Quote
Here is what I present at Serpent Mound:

I clicked on the link, I watched the video.
This is *exactly* where I 'got this from'.
Plus a few tidbits I found googling your name, and as far as these are mentioned in my post, the URLs are all there.



Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2015, 01:41:04 pm »
Ingebourg -

One of the reviews comments:

Quote

"He suggests long-term traffic via canoes between Europe, Africa and the Americas, "red-haired giants" (the real "Goliath?) mining copper for centuries around the Great Lakes, and exporting it to Africa via canoe, and many other unfamiliar ideas. This book was self-published by Mr. Grondine ..."

Excuse me, I never claimed the Andaste had red hair, nor that they exported copper to Africa,
and I can not be held responsible for what others say.

There are a whole lot of nuts out there.

"The interviewer then remarks we won't see any giant skeletons at all in the museums. EPG explains that e.g. the Carnegie in Pittsburgh had excavation reports but 'what happened to their skeletons, I don't know'.

Yes, I have no idea where the remains that Dragoo and Neuman excavated are.
Nor the remains excavated by Fowkes. They did not lie about what they found.

I don't need to see the skeletons. I've met Cherokee and Osage in whom the height gene expressed.

"On the other hand he claims that 'all the Native peoples remember these guys' and 'the Ho-Chunk fought them, the Ojibwe fought them, Five Nations fought them, the Shawnee fought them, the Cherokee fought them, the Choctaw-Chickasaw knew them [and] fought them'."

Yes. Sorry, I left the "Huron" (Wyandot) out of that off this top of my head list.
My apologies to the Wendat.

"He also claims that part of the giants' culture survived in Osage culture."

I did not say that. The height genome did survive.
You can ask them about the Wedigo, if you like.

"With the only intermarrying happening was with the Osage."

I never said that.

"This ethnic group, EPG claims, had an advanced level of technology. They eventually made it to the Atlantic coast (European side, that is) and from there set out to North America. This, EPG says, took place about 8,000-something BC, 'so we can trace them'.

'Couple of items of their technology are very much advanced – straight edges on stone tools, they bring that over from Europe'.

SERATED edges, Ingebourg.  And polished stone tools. And an advanced maritime hunting toolkit, which I did not mention in the interview.

Neither did I mention the adoption of these technologies by the "glacial kame" and "red ochre" peoples in the interview.

"So you followed EPG's description of who he thinks the moundbuilders were up to this point – and now for a serious blow: Not a word of it is true. It's all BS – garbage – fantasy --- in one word: pseudo-history.""

I have repeatedly and emphatically stated that there were no "moundbuilders", including at length in my book, Ingebourg.

Different peoples used earth to build different structures for different purposes: graves, palace bases, temple bases, enclosures for ball courts, enclosures for
astronomical celebrations, enclosures for gatherings, fortifications, etc.

"Mounds'" are what are left of them after several hundred to several thousand years

My book is rigorously footnoted.

Moving on to the garbage about the Holocene Start Impact Event, which indicates an Ohio Historical Society source.

One problem with all of that - we have an atrobleme now, located right in what was then the North American ice sheet, and an impact date.

"In 8,000 BCE, as well as in 5,500 BCE, we're well prior to the existence of sails. Not of boats, though, but this would mean a voyage of about 5,000 kms roughly, more or less happily paddling away with no fresh water accessible except for rainfalls, no plants to be gathered, no game to be hunted, and you got women, children, and old persons on your hands to take care of, too. "

Canadian Maritime Archaic shows up at 8,350 BCE.

I do not know all of the Andaste's maritime technologies. but sails were used in the Americas before Columbus.

I do not know if they were invented here or if someone introduced them.

As far as the earliest images of dugouts with sails in the Mediterranean goes, I believe Francthi Cave was the earliest, but perhaps memoryy fails. I don't know what the earliest is now.

The other barriers raised are not insurmountable, given that both sea turtles and auks lived then.

"What's even more fatal to Mr Grondine's fantasies is: anthropologists and archeologists haven't excavated any giants in that area either. There were excavations and underwater research which even found traces of earlier settlements around the Black Sea, but none of the remnants suggest the existence of any giants there. Tough sh*t, innit."

Ingebourg, google  Pre-Pottery Neolithic.

"Needless to say, the theory of a giant 'race' of migrated mound builders is put forward e.g. by minds not quite grounded strictly on science but on fantasy, pseudo-history, and conspiracy theories, like the persons maintaining sites like „atlantis-research“, and more pseudo-scientific and/or conspiracy theorist sites."

Yes, there is a whole lot of crap out there, including yours.

"Apparently, since Mr Grondine has been reinvited for lectures year after year at the Ohio festival, it is also what organisers and audience welcome. But what an event: you get fake Shawnee listening to lectures on fake redhaired giant mount building refugees from the Black Sea with of course advanced technology (why, they're Euros, aren't they!)."

They were Andaste, a part of the X mt DNA family. which spread beyond Europe.
Once again, I never said they had red hair.
The Andaste had black hair.

I have no control over who attends the Solstice festival.

Once, again, I would be very happy if the White Oak Band, the Absentee Band, the Eastern Band, and the Shawnee living in refuge among the Kettle Point Ojibwe (this last band includes descendants of those closest to Tecumseh) all got together and asked the Ohio Historical Society for permission to perform ceremony proper at any of the sites under the ownership of the Ohio Historical Society.

If they want to do it at Serpent Mound, they would be welcomed.

"Mentioning this, I am also curious as to why Mr Grondine believes all his migrant giants were red-haired. Red hair does occur in Europe in a fairly small percentage of the population, and even in Ireland you won't find an entirely red-haird population. So WTF should a people living far more to the south around the Black Sea (or whereever precisely we should be looking for their alleged homeland) be all red-haired?"

And I am completely baffled by where you got this red hair stuff.

But I have no doubt why you put words in my mouth, which is simply to slander me.

"Plus that the use of copper was no Euro privilege - ndns used it too."

I never said that other Native Americans did not use coppper.
In point of fact, I emphatically stated that they did.
I also identified their sources for it.

"But how to claim these Euro migrants - as Mr Grondine apparently does in his book - also exported the copper to Africa using canoes *and* keep a straight face, is beyond me."

I never said the Andaste took copper to Africa.
I never made any speculation about trans Atlantic delivery points.
Nor did I speculate as to who may have carried copper across the Atlantic Ocean.
Nor even if it was even carried across.

I did trace the Andaste copper trade route to the Atlantic Ocean.
As beyond that I made no other statement,
your clear intention here is to slander me.

"Then again, Mr Grondine also seems to claim he was a historian."

I still am, and my books will carry on for me after I have passed on.

Speaking about really bad fantasies,
I hope that the mistakes that the Loyal Shawnee made in their histories of the Absentee Band and Eastern Band will be corrected by them.

The Eastern Band and the Absentee Band are also part of THE Shawnee, and have been, and will be.
With full tribal rights.

Do you really want to go into casino politics here?

I don't and I won't.





Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: "Vandals admit muffin-crystal-thingie assault at Serpent Mound"
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2015, 02:00:53 pm »
I need to add here that Vine DeLoria's last book was to have been on the "giants".

Part of it lies in pieces among his papers, other parts with his research assistant living here in Newark, whose health is seriously failing, preventing her from any further work on it.

In my view, assembling it would make a good project for some graduate student.