Sweat lodges in Nottingham, UK

[TimberlineWarrior]

Heres a novel twist, you can chose a selection of activities, bat surveys, nature trails, brass bands, wildflower courses and sweat lodges. Just pop down to the local Council owned woods.
http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/countryparkevents.pdf
I did e-mail the Council and ask some details about the leaders qualifications but they never bothered to reply. Maybe somebody nearer might be interested in looking into the matter.

Timberline

[TimberlineWarrior]

I contacted Nottingham Council and tried to make a complain about this happening and basically was told that they believe they are doing the right thing and allowing other people to share experiences from other cultures.
When I commented that to Native Americans this is a sacred ceremony the woman I spoke to wasn't interested and although she noted my comments she actually asked if I or others would be interested in attending so we can add to the authenticity of the event!
I will be writing an e-mail of complaint but should anyone else feel like adding their weight to stop this ripping off the woman to contact is;
linda.hardy@nottscc.gov.uk
She did comment that if there is sufficient feedback that such practices are causing offence they will review the situation and cease.

TimberlineWarrior

[TimberlineWarrior]

I have mailed the woman and another regarding this.
This is my mail to her;
I telephoned you recently regarding the Native American attitude towards Sweat Lodges which we regard as a sacred ceremony.
We strongly believe that these should never be performed by somebody who is not correctly accreditted by the Lakota people and fully trained by them to perform these. As correct sweat lodges have to be led by an Elder and or a hereditary Pipe Carrier and as far as can be assertained Jason Sewell has recieved no such recognition nor has any organisation called Turtle Lodge that this person and this organisation are charlatans.
We also strongly hold against the selling of any ceremony or ritual and regard such as theft.
These matters, as well as our conversation, have now been brought to the attention of several organisations who fight against frauds, plastic shamen and people and organisations who perform sacred ceremonies and rituals for their own profit especially without authorisation of the authentic users. They have also been forwarded to The American Indian Movement and will be forwarded to local and National newspapers.

I recieved this reply;

I have received your email and am considering your complaint in the same way that I would consider any complaint from a member of the public about an event held at one of Nottinghamshire's country parks.  It will take some time to gather the facts and consult both Jason Sewell who runs the course, the park manager and the ranger team who receive feedback from people who have attended events of the type you criticise.  As a public authority we must proceed in a fair and measured way, listening to both sides.
I understand that you and your lobby group hold strong feelings on this matter, but I do not believe that there is anything to be gained by aggressive, threatening or defamatory language, and I would suggest that we will proceed better by refraining from this.
I would like to make it quite plain that it is not our intention to be drawn into a conflict over Native American rights.  We are a County Council and deal with issues which are relevent to Nottinghamshire citizens.  Our decision as to whether or not we should continue to include these events at Bestwood Country Park will be based on:
Whether local people and park users want them.
Whether they are run in a safe manner, following health and safety legislation
Whether they are conducted in a responsible way, for example open to adults only
In addition, as one of the aims of the park is to encourage use by people on low incomes, we give preference to low price events and avoid those which are designed solely to make a profit from participants.  
I will get back to you when we have had time to gather the above issues.

Linda Hardy

I'm not sure what defamatory language I used, but she seems to think I did. Maybe it was referring to Jason Sewell as a charlatan?
I have replied to this;

I would like to add to your comments.
1 It was not my intention to be aggressive or abusive and having read the mail I sent do not believe I was.
2 All of the people I am involved with have Native American blood and are recognised Native Americans.
If you were running say a mock Muslim ceremony without an accreddited or authorised leader and recieved complaints I am my companions are certain you would take the matter more seriously.

From the original conversation I had with her and this mail I don't believe she has any intention of stopping these sweats, certainly not at the moment anyway. The more she says she is actually justifying holding them in fact. Firstly her belief that they are offering people a chance to experience other cultures and now that people on low income are benefitting. That statement alone contradicts the principals of a sweat as when were people on low income ever charged or even paid more than they could afford for a sweat?

[Barnaby_McEwan]

There is also the 'health and safety' problem. People die in these lodges, as Gordon Reynolds did in 1996 in Somerset. He left behind a wife and two kids, though the people who wrapped him in a blanket after he developed heat exhaustion and then hyperthermia were unconcerned about that, believing he was lucky to die in such 'spiritual' circumstances. This is an appalling display of the bone-headed arrogance of newagers.

'Man died in New Age purification ritual', Sean O'Neill, London Daily Telegraph, Friday 22 November 1996:

After the hearing, Penny Butterell, the owner of the farmland, said that members of the group had been upset by Mr Reynolds's death. "But they felt privileged to be around when he left," she added. "It's not often somebody gets that nice a way of going - to be totally prepared, out in the open with the stars. It was his time to go and he went. He was quiet and totally happy."

Mrs Reynolds, a former nurse who shared her husband's interest in American Indian culture, said her husband's death should be a warning to others. She said: "Although the people who organised this sweat lodge were my friends, I have to speak out. They say Gordon's spirit is set free, but how do I answer a six-year-old who says 'I want Daddy here on earth'?"

[Le_Weaponnier]

It seems to me that this person is overly cautious, so perhaps emphasising the risks of improperly conducted 'sweats' might be the best bet.
They are not going to want to allow something if they have been told it might be dangerous, particularly, if you ADVISE them of the danger and point out that if something does go wrong, the blame will be pointed squarely back at them for failing to address safety concerns.

[piya]

I also wrote to this woman, when the issue first came up, in great detail.

Guess what?.  She hasn't even bothered to reply.

I will see what else I can come up with. lol

[TimberlineWarrior]

I've had a reply. Here it is in it's full content;

Country Parks Service
Nottinghamshire County Council
Rufford Abbey
Ollerton
Nottinghamshire
NG22 9DF


                                          Tuesday, 01 August 2006



Dear Mr. B

I am responding to your recent complaint about the Sweat Lodge event run by Jason Sewell at Bestwood Country Park.  Bestwood Country Park is managed by Nottinghamshire County Council.

Your complaint concerned Native American rights, and you stated that in the opinion of yourself and lobby group NAFPS (New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamen), the holding of sweat lodge ceremonies by non Native Americans out of context of their indigenous culture and involving a payment or donation was not acceptable to you.  You stated that including such events in our country park programme implied mockery of traditional beliefs and native American culture and asked that the event be dropped in the future.

It is our responsibility to investigate complaints from the public, and to attempt to do this fairly and with respect for both sides.  However, I must stress that it is not our role to be drawn into matters of religious or philosophical debate.  I am aware of the very strong feeling which exist in the international debate concerning the rights and traditions of indigenous peoples around the world, but it would be no more appropriate for us to comment on these matters than it would to enter into the debate between representatives of various different Christian denominations.

I note that it is not uncommon for what I would term spiritual or philosophic techniques to be taken out of their original cultural context and used for purposes of health, relaxation, or community celebration in the West.  Examples of this are yoga (from the Hindu tradition), Tai Chi and Xi Gong (from Chinese culture) or even Gregorian Chant (from medieval Christian monastic practice), many of which regularly feature in the events programmes of parks, colleges and public institutions.

As park managers, in deciding whether or not an event is suitable to be offered to the public our decision must be based primarily on such questions as:

·      Is the event safe for public participation?
·      Is there demand from the public for this type of event?
·      Is it suitable for the outdoor / park setting?
·      Is there evidence that participants enjoyed and felt benefit from the event?
·      Have any fraudulent or misleading claims been made of it?
·      Is it fairly priced, not excluding the low waged?

With this in mind I have made various enquiries of Mr. Sewell and the ranger staff at Bestwood Country Park, and have come to the following conclusions:

1.  Safety
The organiser has carried out a comprehensive risk assessment for the event, and has public liability insurance for it.  37 events of this type have so far taken place at Bestwood and there have been no reports of any accident, injury or illness resulting from participation.  We therefore consider that adequate consideration has been taken of public safety.

2.  Public Demand
Park rangers report a considerable level of interest from park users in this event.  75 people have attended since January 28th this year.  There would thus appear to be a demand for this type of event.

3.  Suitability for Location
There are possible concerns over events which include the use of fires and hot coals, due to the fact that Bestwood occasionally attracts arson attacks.  However, as the event is conducted under supervision and risk assessments have been carried out, we consider this acceptable.  The location of country parks tends to appeal to those members of the public with an interest in outdoor ‘green’ and New Age events and other events of this nature are a regular feature of the events programme (e.g. The Goddess Camp).

4.  User Satisfaction
Reports from event participants via the ranger service would appear to be very positive, but we prefer written evaluations to be carried out.  I will suggest that in future our standard events evaluation form is distributed to participants and that these are returned to the park ranger team to ensure that we have an objective record of users’ satisfaction levels.

5.  Fraudulent Claims?
You initial complaint drew my attention to the NAFPS website, which referred to persons misleading the public with fraudulent claims (e.g. white practitioners falsely claiming to be Native Americans).  I note that the organiser of the Bestwood event, Jason Sewell, does not claim to be a Native American, and has been quite clear on this point in his publicity for the event.  I believe that his training has taken place with Roland Torikan who works with the Mayan people in Mexico, rather than in the North American tradition.  I have seen no evidence of any claim to be a ‘shamen’ or spiritual guru with intent to mislead the public.
  
6.  Fairly Priced?
Because Bestwood Country Park is located in an area of high social deprivation, it is one of the aims of the park that events should be priced as low as possible, in order not to exclude those on low incomes.  The price of £20 per participant for the event in question (with concessions offered) would appear to be reasonable given the length of the event, the cost of public liability insurance and the time taken to set up and take down the equipment.  The question of whether or not any payment should be asked for a sweat lodge ‘ceremony’ (to which you object on moral and cultural grounds) does not appear to be relevant here, as the event is not promoted as a spiritual ceremony, but as a technique for healing / group sharing / meditation – in the same way that a Western yoga class does not purport to be a Hindu religious experience.  

In conclusion, after consultation with the ranger team at Bestwood, we do not see any reason why the sweat lodge event should not be allowed to continue at Bestwood Country Park.  

However, I would like to stress that the fact that we have come to this conclusion from a parks management point of view does not imply that we in any way disregard your sincere and strongly held views on the wider subject of Native American rights.  I believe that this is a separate, personal and political matter, in which it would be inappropriate for us to become involved.  I hope you will understand and respect this view.

Yours sincerely

Linda Hardy
Visitor Services Manager
Nottinghamshire Country Parks Service.

Basically she's saying that because they're making money and nobodies been hurt or voiced a complaint, other than me, they'll continue!
I will sit on this for 24 hours before I reply to make sure I word it correctly to clarify several points she's raised. Meanwhile if anyone has information on Roland Torikan please let me know.

Timberline

[TimberlineWarrior]

I couldn't sit on it for 24 hours after all. This is my reply to her;

Dear Linda,
thank-you for your letter.
I would like to raise several points about your reply.
1 It's not just the fact that charging for Sweats is out of context, but the fact that being charged actually devalues the ceremony and removes any benefit from participating in the sweat. Authentic Sweat Lodges are NOT charged for but are by invitation and any exchange is in the form of goods or a donation to the authorised leader.
2 You mention many other forms of relaxation and treatment and compare a Sweat to them. But that is not a correct comparison. Sweat Lodges should be compared to Mass, Communion, BarMitzah, Ramadan, etc. A Sweat Lodge is not a therapy or treatment it is a religious ceremony!
3 You mention Risk Assesment. Please forward me a copy of this document. Just because an accident hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. People have been injured and even died in performing sweat lodges.
4 Just because there is a public demand for something doesn't mean it should be available. That is unless you wish to reintroduce handguns, legalise cannabis, allow hare coursing, etc.
5 The location you claim is suitable. But Sweat Lodges should be conducted in seclusion and in a peaceful enviroment. A public place is not the correct location under any circumstances.
6 In reference to your user satisfaction and your claim of authenticity I ask how many participants are Native American or have experienced a genuine Native American Sweat Lodge?
7 In reference to frauds, I point out that a Sweat Lodge is a Lakota ceremony. You refer to Roland Torikan who works with Mayan people. Mayans have no connection to Sweat Lodges, in fact the most famous Mayan ceremony concerns human sacrafice. Perhaps you will allow these also.
8 The event may not be promoted as a sacred ceremony, but in using the name Sweat Lodge and the equipment mentioned it would seem to be an unauthorised impersonation of a sweat lodge.
9 Sweats should be led by an authorised leader/elder and or a hereditory pipe carrier who are regarded as holy people by the Lakota Nation. Jason Sewell is neither of these there is a fraud and his name has been forwarded to the Lakota Nation who will endeavour to contact him for him to explain to them the fraudulent use of one of their sacred ceremonies.

The views I have mentioned are not just personal ones but the opinion of any Native American who finds the missuse of ceremony, rite and tradition offensive.

Regards
S

[TimberlineWarrior]

You can judge for yourself her attitude from the reply I recieved;

Mr B - I have taken a considerable time to consider your points and I have stated our position and replied formally to your complaint.  We have an extremely busy office.

I understand and appreciate that your views differ radically to ours but I regret that on this we must agree to differ.  

Linda Hardy
Visitor Services Manager
Country Parks Service
Nottinghamshire County Council
Tel. 01623 821328
Fax. 01623 825919

I translate that as GO AWAY and stop bothering me!

[piya]

Timberline Warrior,

May I copy the replies you have received to pass on.

[TimberlineWarrior]

Please do.
Not only does the issue need stopping, but the woman has an attitude problem, possibly very near to racism.

Timberline

[AndreasWinsnes]

I find it disgusting that Jason Sewell is arranging a Sweat Lodge, but I can understand the view of Linda Hardy. I have read her replies carefully, and can't see that she has an attitude problem. She admits that she only speak from the perspective of a park manager. I agree with her that it is not the role of park managers to judge what is proper when it comes to religious ceremonies. They don't have the competence to do that.

Sewell is probably misleading many people when his ceremonies are called "Sweat Lodges", but it is difficult for a park manager to judge if he is guilty of fraud or not. It would be different if Native American ceremonies were protected by law. But Native Americans don't have a patent on Sweat Lodges, unfortunately.

The argument about health risk is most convincing. Have you sent her documentation of all the cases where people have died? Her risk assessment should not be based on 37 instances alone. That is not enough.

Sweat Lodges can trigger a serious psychological crisis, so it is totally irresponsible to arrange such ceremonies in a public place.

If Moslems had asked Hardy to stop a religious ceremony, she probably would, not because she likes Islam, but only because of public safety reasons. I don't know if Native Americans should behave the way Moslems do to prevent misuse of religious practices, what do you think?

[educatedindian]

Hardy seems to me an extreme example of people who think sp strongly of themselves as "tolerant" who just can't bring themselves to condemn or see as wrong *anything*, under any circumstances.

I doubt any Natives would ever be inclined to protect ceremonies the way some Muslims reacted to the blasphemous cartoons published about Mohammed. And notice, it's some, not all Muslims. Just like all Christians are not abortion clinic bombers, and not every Nuager abuses women like Harley Reagan.

[AndreasWinsnes]

I mentioned Islam, only because Timberline wrote the following:

If you were running say a mock Muslim ceremony without an accreddited or authorised leader and recieved complaints I am my companions are certain you would take the matter more seriously.

Here is a suggestion. Why not call the local media and tell them that Hardy is willing to allow a potentially deadly ceremony?

[Moma_porcupine]

Quoting the park manager from what was posted in reply #6

I am aware of the very strong feeling which exist in the international debate concerning the rights and traditions of indigenous peoples around the world, but it would be no more appropriate for us to comment on these matters than it would to enter into the debate between representatives of various different Christian denominations.

 

If it is decided it is Ok to use the park for an imitation non religious sweat lodge ceremony  , then as I see it , there IS a decision being made to support the interests of one so called "denomination" over another .

What I find most troubling is that anyone would be willing to assume individuals , who apparently have absolutely no historic or recognized connection with an EXISTING socially organized religion , are a "denomination" .

While it is true there are different Christian , Moslem , and Buddist denominations , I think it is important to remember these different denominations began with one cultural group who practiced Christian , Moslem , or Buddist traditions for many generations before going off in slightly different directions .

To make an analogy , there is a big difference between an aquaintance abducting someone elses child , and two parents who split up , working out a way to share custody of a child .

To imagine everyone should have equal rights to use what is someone elses cherished cultural property , and to deny the rights of Native Americans to protect their own Spiritual traditions , does not seem at all respectful of the rights of the people who carried these traditions for countless generations , who are clearly and repeatedly saying , it is not OK for a sweat lodge ceremony, to be done in this context  .

In principal , I believe public parks generally avoid allowing activities that offend a lot of people .  ( such as indiscreet nudity in communities where many people are upset by this  ) As this is a common guideline for the use of a public park, it does feel disrespectful when the wishes of at least 95% of the Lakota people are ignored , and I can see why Timberline warrior would feel the attitudes behind this might border on racism.

Probably this park manager simply does not really understand how MANY Native American people are deeply offended by this , and feeling caught between a rock and a hard place , is choosing to do what she imagines will please the most people in her own community . I still think this sort of disrespect is deeply WRONG . If the park feels the public interest is served by having a non religious steam bath in the park , maybe the park needs to build a sauna .