Author Topic: Scarlet Kinney's Message on The Standing Bear  (Read 11144 times)

Offline educatedindian

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Scarlet Kinney's Message on The Standing Bear
« on: March 25, 2006, 05:39:11 pm »
An Open Letter to Scarlet Kinney and members/followers/cultists/victims of The Standing Bear:

Less than 48 hours ago, a member of NAFPS, Debbie Redbear, posted a quote from Scarlet Kinney's Nuage group, The Standing Bear.

Within a few hours of this post, Scarlet Kinney posted a raving , angry, harshly worded attack, or as she called it, an attempt to "teach" by provoking anger and getting people to fight amongst themselves.

A follower of hers also posted, and then Kinney returned under a second ID. Both launched the standard excuses of Nuage exploiters, "negative" and "not being centered'.

Kinney demanded repeatedly that we remove the quotes of her site, not apparently knowing the Fair Use laws.

Kinney is now falsely claiming she has been banned. Anyone who views the member list will see she is still allowed here. She is rallying her followers to defend her, vowing she will post comments by her members, but only those she approves of. She has also posted a great deal of confused information, distortion, and outright lies.

At the moment, some members of NAFPS think she is simply a confused old woman. Others think she is arrogant, controlling, manipulative, in other words, just one more typical white racist exploiter.

My own personal opinion is that she is both. Her cousin's death obviously weighs heavily on her. When I tried to be sympathetic about her plight, she accused me of "personal attacks" and demanded an apology. In increasingly typical fashion, she quickly reversed herself and now says that my sympathy for her plight was somehow "unforgivable".

That's just too bad, Ms. Kinney. My sympathy for you remains, even though I think you are doing an enormous amount of damage by your distortions and lies.

The false information she's posted on her site is worth replying to at length, so that her followers or victims will be aware of her pattern of confusion and lies:

"The Standing Bear has recently been attacked by a group of Native Americans"

If she'd bothered to read our message at Who We Are, she'd know that we are a multi-tribal, multi-cultural, mulit-racial, multi-faith group. We have members from at least a dozen tribes. We also have whites, Blacks, Latinos, one Maori member, Christians, atheists, pagans, Native traditionalists, and one Muslim member.

"who call themselves "The New Age Fraud Patrol"

Actually, we're called New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans. She can't even get our name right. See what we mean about a deeply confused woman?

"I urge each person who finds her way to this site to read through it carefully and come to your own conclusion"

Good, I hope they all do.

"about whether or not I'm genuine, or a "fraud", as they have labeled me"

Actually some of us just think you are deeply confused.

"or whether or not I have the right to do what I'm doing."

Whites should not have the power to decide if what she does is right or not, anymore than anti-Semites should have the say over Jewish beliefs. What matters is VIRTUALLY ALL NATIVES THINK WHAT SHE DOES IS WRONG.

"the members of NAFPS ? attempt to discredit and financially ruin any person, Native American or otherwise, who teaches anything that they believe belongs exclusively to Native American full bloods,"

Nonsense. Many of us are mixedbloods, including myself.

"The result of my standing up to these bullies"

Are you kidding? Many of us were quite sympathetic. You said so yourself. Caught once again in a lie.

"was that a very nasty online brawl ensued."

How melodramatic, not to mention an outright lie. ? We discussed with you. You and your follower were the only ones to get hysterical, attacking us repeatedly, no matter how sympathetic we were to you.

"I was attacked on a personal level"

Once again, a lie.

"as well as on a professional level"

But you're not a professional. "Shamans" don't have licenses.

"My writings, my character, my intentions, and my attempts to guide things towards a reasonable discussion and debate within the context of their public forum were ridiculed."

No one said anything about your writings. And your attempt to "guide" you openly admitted to be a standard technique you use to control your followers.

"In addition, the horrible deaths of two of my family members in a fire was used by "Educated Indian", as part of a particularly virulent attempt to malign me."

I expressed sympathy for you. How is that "maligning"?

"I publicly demanded an apology from him on the site for his appalling behavior."

Saying I feel sympathy for you is nothing to apologize for.

"I have now been banned from participating in the site's public forum."

Once again, an outright lie from you. Anyone can see you are still a member.

I ask her followers, go see for yourself. And then ask if this woman can be trusted if she lies like this repeatedly.

"I was surprised by this move on their part since I had received a private Email from the site's moderator, Debbie Red Bear"

Actually Debbie is a longtime member, but not a moderator. Once again, I believe Ms. Kinney is easily confused.

"in which she told me that she was beginning to believe I was sincere, and was considering removing The Standing Bear from the site's "Fraud" section to its "Research" section."

What Debbie said to me was that she thought, like I do, that you were simply a very confused woman.

"I'm of the opinion that the issues these people are trying to expose and prevent, as well as the anger they directed at me, are symptoms of deep personal and cultural wounding"

Finally you have one thing correct. And it's people such as YOURSELF, and the exploitation you do, that are the cause of those wounds.

If you want to help, to heal, it's simple:

STOP YOUR EXPLOITATION.

And apologize for all the wrongs you've done, including lying about NAFPS and its members.

"I will not publish any verbal attacks against anybody"

But you just finished publishing a long series of attacks on NAFPS and its members.

Oh wait, you obviously mean YOU can't be criticized.

"I reserve the right to be the sole judge"

Wait a minute. According to you, "judge" is a bad thing. It's an awful awful thing that you accused us of doing.

"on the Musings and Writings page I am also going to publish a paper presenting my views on the subject of whether or not Native Americans or whites should charge money for teaching Native or shamanic ways to white people, and whether or not whites even have the right to practice or teach shamanism, among other related topics"

This is not only the arrogant, it is the actions of a white racist seeking to impose her opinions. What she thinks is irrelevant. What virtually all Natives think (outside of a few exploiters and sellouts) is that such exploitation is wrong, immoral, and an attempt to destroy Native cultures, turning Native elders into Tontos who serve white needs.

Again, I certainly hope all your members, followers, and victims, find their way here. All are welcome. We rarely ban people. Even Ms. Kinney's attempts to practice her cultlike methods of manipulation did not get her banned, nor did the rather silly lies of one of her followers.

Take a look around, and not just in the threads about your faux "shaman" Ms. Kinney. There's a lot to learn here.
We look forward to talking with you.
Dr. Al Carroll (educatedindian)
Co-Founder, NAFPS

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Message on The Standing Bear
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2006, 06:28:39 pm »
The latest news is that she's edited her statement, correcting many of her false statements and errors, and apologized (somewhat). And then she reversed herself and set down a series of demands.

From her second email to me:
"Sorry, I make make mistakes like everybody else does, but I'm not a liar.
....as I become aware of such errors, I am correcting them on my site. If you would like to edit what I've written and make me aware of errors I may have missed, I'd appreciate it....
I am not charging for teaching about medicine wheels in the traditional sense. While I work with a "form" or structure that I learned from my teacher, the level at which I am working is the result of my having come to understand the medicine wheel as a map of human consciousness. My work could more correctly be identified as a form of depth or archetypal psychology, minus, however, the racist and patriarchal biases that plagued those who created such disciplines. As for errors I may make. Al, I am a regular person, of course I make mistakes just like everybody else does. When I discover I'm wrong, though, I try to set things right."

And her very erratic fourth email, where she pompously made some pretty bizarre demands:

First part sent in BOLD TYPE and three times the size of the rest (I swear, I couldn't make this stuff up).

"The statement below are my conditions for ending it. I have added it to my notice to NAFPS members on my web site.
I will maintain my own forum regarding this issue on this web site until or unless the following conditions have been met:
1. A professionally qualified researcher from your site actually does some legitimate research, gets to know me in person, and comes to at least a minimal understanding of who I am and what I'm doing;
2: The Standing Bear Center for Shamanic studies has been moved from your "fraud" section to your research section, or better still, to your "non-fraud" section; and
3. Members of NAFPS stop attacking and abusing me and my work on its site."

"Professionally qualified researcher"? We have many on here, and they all say you're a fraud, though maybe easily confused and a victim as well.

The rest of the demands are ridiculous as well as arrogant. The more we know about you, the more obvious it is you are committing fraud.
So, NO, you belong in the Fraud section.
NO, no one has ever "abused" you.
NO, we will NOT cease criticizing you as long as you are an exploiter. If you want that criticism to end, quit being an exploiter.

And then she follows this pompousness up with a more conciliatory message.

"Let's keep the communication lines open, though. I think that's the only way anything is going to get resolved regarding this issue. In the meantime, if I'm ever able to get back onto your site, I'll re-read everything and if I feel I was out of line, of course I will apologize, just as someone has privately done to me for her attack on me. Because this is such an emotionally charged issue, I think it's perfectly natural that feelings will run hot and high until a genuine dialogue can be begun. This is what happens when an infected wound is opened. The pus pours out, but if one persists in cleansing the wound, one eventually gets down to the root cause of the infection, and that's the point at which healing can begin. Although our exchanges have been mutually painful to this point"

What? Nothing you've said has been "painful" unless you count my belly aching from laughter.

"and have been pushing buttons all over the place, I don't necessarily perceive this as a bad thing. You've said many provoking things to me, and I to you. However, I can see points that we may eventually begin to come to some kind of understanding about, and will pursue those points when I have time.
Best Wishes, and thanks for your thoughtful communications..."

Anyone else hear the Twlight Zone theme?

Le Weaponnier

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Message on The Standing Bear
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2006, 07:01:46 pm »
Quote:

"who call themselves "The New Age Fraud Patrol"

You know, I kind of LIKE that name.

Offline yellowthunder_bolt

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Message on The Standing Bear
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2006, 07:31:21 pm »
Does Kinney not realize hoe rediculous she sounds. She is one of the most arrogant, self inflated ego, and men haters that I believe I have EVER  heard.

Scarlet who are you to demand anything. That is typical of cult mentality. You may be able to control your cult and they may bow down to you, but I personaly find you nauseating. People of cult mentality always puts out demands, spewing words of control, just like an abusive husband or woman does when they are loosing control.

I personaly feel you need help. I don't know if scarlet is your real name but red comes to mind. A woman scorned.

                                                wado Thomas

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Message on The Standing Bear
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2006, 06:59:51 pm »
The latest emails between Kinney and me. My words have >>>

-----
Hi again, see below. My responses have >>>

Scarlet Kinney <scarlet@thestandingbear.com> wrote:  I think I'm banned, and you think your site is being hacked, when all the time it's quite likely a computer glitch of some kind!

>>>We're having more than a few tech problems. I'm having problems posting. But you obviously don't any more. Even while you complained about it, you posted with no problems today.

I don't have any "followers" in any sense of that word. The person who also said she was banned was somebody who had gone onto your site and in her words, "blasted" me in a very crude way.

>>>Nonsense, no one has said anything even the slightest bit crude.

>>>What I honestly have to wonder is if you might have an ex-follower (yes, you do have them, much like you are in relation to Forest) who might have a grudge.

Apparently, shortly afterwards, she tried to login again, and got the same window I've been getting, telling her she had been banned from the forum. She then wrote to me privately and offered a very heartfelt apology for her words, and I have invited her to consider being my friend rather than my enemy.

>>>So she was your enemy, in her own words.

The alleged "Mohawk elder" who trained me was not an "elder" as she was not old enough to have been given that title.

>>>As you can see by what we found on her, she's not a member of any Mohawk community, she doesn't know much about her (alleged) community, and can't even name one person who allegedly trained her in the extremely brief time she claims she was there. Two yeas is not near enough time to learn Mohawk or any other Native belief system, much less be able to teach it or perform ceremonies.

>>>In that the two of you are much alike, claiming expertise where you have little.

I may indeed have been victimized, and/or taken in by a fraud myself, but that's neither my perception of my relationship with my teacher nor my perspective on such things.

>>>Obviously you either need more self-examination, more introspection, or you need to be more honest.

The woman I studied with had problems, yes, and her underlying hatred of white people became an issue for us that led to a parting of our ways.

>>>Since Forest herself is white and at the very least deeply alienated from her (alleged) community, that is the least of her problems.

I was happy to pay her for her help, just as I would have paid a therapist or doctor, etc.

>>>Obviously you know very little about Native beliefs. Pay to pray is one of the most offensive things one can do.

nor do I harbor any ill will towards her for the aftermath of our parting.

>>>What you hint at here seems to confirm that Forest was an abuser, and not just in ripping you off for money and lying for many years while posing as a medicine woman.

I would defend her were she to be subjected to an attack such as the one I have been subjected to on your site.

>>>"Attack"? Are you kidding? You were criticized, nothing more.

how can I then judge her and make her wrong, knowing what she herself has suffered,

>>>Most of what she claims are obvious lies. She was wrong long before anyone ever criticized her.

and knowing that she is trying to heal her own wounding by working within the white culture?

>>>Nonsense. She's doing nothing positive. She's out to make a buck and build a following for her own ego's sake, nothing more.

I make make mistakes like everybody else does, but I'm not a liar.

>>>At the very least, you deceive yourself quite a bit, as you have repeatedly on Forest.

If you would like to edit what I've written and make me aware of errors I may have missed, I'd appreciate it.

>>>Thanks, that is very mature of you. I will send you a list of errors this weekend.

I am not charging for teaching about medicine wheels in the traditional sense. While I work with a "form" or structure that I learned from my teacher, the level at which I am working is the result of my having come to understand the medicine wheel as a map of human consciousness.

>>>Nonsense. MWs are not a map of human consciousness in any sense except your wishful thinking, and it's offensive for you to misrepresent them that way.

>>>This is particularly true since you yourself admit to so little expertise in Native cultures or beliefs. It's akin to someone claiming to be a surgeon who didn't know where the heart was.

As for my lashing out at other people, I learned as a very young child that the only way to discourage bullies was to smack them right back

>>>You're not a child anymore. Isn't it time to grow up?

>>>And no one has "bullied" you. Criticism is just that, nothing more.

That's what I did when I discovered that you had posted me as a fraud without even meeting me

>>>Are you serious? Do you really expect we can never criticize obvious frauds and abusers unless we meet them?

>>>Would you tell a detective that he could not investigate crimes unless he met the criminal first?

or trying to understand what the heck it is I'm actually doing

>>>We criticized what you yourself said you were doing. You make a buck off of bizarre misinformation about medicine wheels.

At any rate, I understood her teachings to be a synthesis of women's ways from her own culture, and from Mongolian and Mayan cultures as well.

>>>Do you realize just how ludicrous that claim is, that she could just waltz right into Mayan and Mongorian communities and become an Instant Shaman?

>>>3) And if our forum was the first time you ever heard the phrase "ancestral memory" then you really have not had much contact with Natives.

Precisely. I am not Native, don't claim to be, and nor do I claim to be teaching Native American anything. The fact that I studied with a Native American teacher does not necessarily mean that I am teaching Native American ways.

>>>Read Moma Porcupine's words. You are full of contradictions. Consider putting out a prominent disclaimer.

As for the attached tirade, I have taken the position that I am not going to respond to anybody who comes at me in an accusatory, blaming, maligning or abusive way. The quote below falls into all of those categories, so I am not going to respond to it.

>>>Nonsense. You are obviously lying. You obviously went over the statement in detail, point by point, when you edited your previous statement with a fine tooth comb.

I will, however, be glad to continue corresponding with you or anybody else who wants to try and achieve some kind of understanding with me.
Best, Scarlet

>>>I think the best way to end this would be:
1) You quit teaching about medicine wheels.
2) You remove all references to Native beliefs or teachers.
3) Editing out the many errors still in your statement on your site. I'll send you a list this weekend.
4) Apoologize for repeatedly misleading or deceptive statements by yourself or your followers. For example, your follower posted an extremely racist statement even while accusing us of being racists. Of course you could also ask her to make the apology for her own statements.
5) Cease the ridiculous demands you've made to us.
We're not going to do them, ever, any more than a cop would drop charges because a criminal demanded it after beign caught.
6) If you were to do all of the above, in other words, Cease Being An Exploiter, we could move your thread to Etc. We frankly don't have a section for Reformed Exploiters Who Apologize. But if you did this, you would show yourself to truly be a mature person who did wrong out of ignorance or being unaware of how you'd been deceived for so long.
Al Carroll

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Message on The Standing Bear
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2006, 12:04:32 am »
The latest email exchange between Kinney and myself, this one after I sent her the expose of Ohky Forest by Indianz.com. My response is first.

-----
ROFL!
 
Let me get this straight:
 
You, coming from a patriarchal culture, are lecturing me, who comes from a matrilineal and matrilocal culture, and accusing me of being "patriarchal"?
More of that faux-feminism rearing its head, it seems.
 
You, who are exploiting and abusing other naive whites' interest in Native ways for money, and who has spent the last week demanding, insulting, and repeatedly lying, are accusing me of being "abusive"?
 
I really should thank you for giving me so many belly laughs!
 
The photo request strikes me as, frankly, weird. But my photo's already online at a couple sites because of the speaking tour last year.
 
So instead of me tracking down sites with my photo because you are (yet again) too lazy to do the work yourself, I'd like to hear if your answers to my proposals to ending your exploitative ways.

And instead of going into denial over how your "teacher" was exposed, you need to come to grips with the ways she abused you and lied to you repeatedly, as you yourself admitted and have told others.

scarlet@thestandingbear.com wrote:

> Al, I'm not going to communicate with you any more if you continue to
sit in judgment on me or on my teacher, or to be abusive. Your comments
are classic examples of the dynamic of patriarchal abuse. Are you
familiar with this concept? There's a good book about it called "The
Verbally Abusive Relationship", in which you'll find yourself and your
communication style many times over. I suggest you read it and adjust
your attitude before communicating with me again.

I'd also appreciate a photo of you. Communicating online is difficult
enough as visuals, tones of voice, body posture and language, etc. are
missing. I find that communicating without all one's senses engaged is a
poor substitute for real world communication. At least with a photo of the
person one is communicating with, one gets at least some visual sense of
who the person might actually be.

Your "teacher" was exposed on another forum. A sister of one of her
> followers described her group as much like a cult. So I think my original
> view of you as both victim and victimizer is correct.
> Nothing that Forest does has anything to do with Mohawk or Mayan
> beliefs, and her claims are ridiculous to people within the actual
> Native communities she claims. Like yourself, she knows amazingly
> little, and then turns around and claims expertise.
>
> Here's what they found on Forest. I left out portions which are on other
> topics.
> -----
> http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16526&whichpage=2

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Message on The Standing Bear
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2006, 03:58:36 pm »
The latest set of emails between myself and Kinney. Much of what she discussed with me (but is not posted below since she asked me not to) hinted very strongly that Forest is a far worse abuser than we thought, with a long string of victims, not just Kinney.  By victims I'm fairly sure that includes not just lying and phony ceremonies. I mean a long pattern of emotional abuse and manipulation, with Forest squeezing her followers for every penny. And possibly (though I'm not certain about this) sexual abuse or exploitation as well.

-----
Al: See below, my words have >>>

scarlet@thestandingbear.com wrote:  I will not communicate with you otherwise as long as you persist in throwing
abuse at me.
 
>>>Learn the difference between abuse and criticism. Like I pointed out before, your claims I'm "abusive" are a ludicrous attempt to change the subject away from your exploitation of Native beliefs for profit. Not one single person bought your claim of myself or anyone at NAFPS "abusing" you, and I doubt anyone ever will.
 
I am temporarily unblocking you, but if I get one more
abusive, insulting email from you, I will block you again, and
permanently.
 
>>>That wouldn't exactly be a punishment for me....
All it would be is a confirmation of your own childishness, that you are unable to hear the slightest bit of criticism.

It's a shame, really, that things have come to such a pass, because I do
understand what you're trying to do,
 
>>>Contradicting your last statement on the forum.
 
and feel that perhaps we could work
cooperatively,
 
>>>Why would I want to "cooperate" with you? Why would a cop or DA want to work with a criminal, unless that criminal confessed and agreed to work to bring down a greater criminal?
In case you had not guessed, I'm talking about the abuser who abused you, Forest, and set in motion the cycle of abuse you perpetuate.
 
were it not for your abusive communication style.

>>>Not one single person has ever claimed I'm "abusive" so it's clearly empty rhetoric on your part.

will you please calm down?
 
>>>The only one getting overly emotional is you, with your crying wolf of "abuse" every time someone points out you are an exploiter, or that Forest lied to and exploited you.
Again, this "abuse" exists only in your imagination. That's clear to every person except you.

>>>And while because of my sense of ethics I will not repost what you say about Forest, for the sake of warning others I can relay to others what I believe you are describing, a pattern of abuse on her part far worse than you have admitted to before.
Since you know the language of therapy surrounding abuse issues so well, I'll leave you to consider just what you are in relation to Forest:
 
>>>You are an enabler of her abuse. You do that when you refuse to try and stop her, when you make excuses for her, and when you not only defend her, you PROMOTE her as a "teacher".
To put in bluntly, other women will go through the same things she did to you because you fail to stop her.
By promoting her, you RECRUIT victims for her.
You keep the cycle of victims going.

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Scarlet Kinney's Message on The Standing Bear
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2006, 09:47:27 pm »
One sad thing I noticed is that there are books written by fruads where the woman (it's always a woman) meets this teaher/healer/shaman/whatever and that person teaches them but is very mean. Two that come to mind are Lynn Andrewes whose "teachers" always are cruel to her and abusive and Heather HUghes-Cordero who also meets this teacher who is very mean and abusive to her. I thought Andrewes and Huges-Cordero were real whiny babies. However, I also saw that their mentors were flat out ,mean. Since that time I have met a lot of white women who think that this is the way it is supposed to be. That the teacher teaches by meanness and cruelty. And I have come across frauds who sre extremely cruel to their followers.