Author Topic: Sam Beeler  (Read 75968 times)

Offline wolfhawaii

  • Posts: 293
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2009, 05:29:02 am »
I spoke with Dr. Richard Allen by phone several weeks ago; he expressed surprise that his colleague Wyman Kirk had stated that Sam Beeler was apparently enrolled CNO. It seems the issue of his enrollment is not fully resolved. After hearing a list of the enrolled Cherokees alleged to have been founders and members of the Nuyagi Keetoowah organization, Dr. Allen mentioned that one person on the list was a close relative. Perhaps more information will be forthcoming as Dr. Allen's schedule permits. I personally find it interesting that at a time when Redbird Smith was ceremonially killing fires in OK, someone would allegedly carry the fire from OK to NJ.

Offline shkaakwus

  • Posts: 99
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2009, 07:02:47 pm »
Moma_Porcupine:
 
I'm not going to attempt to reply to everything you posted, which includes a lot of quotations from myself and others.  Trying to format such a mess into a reply would take days and days.  I'll just post a reply which addresses some of what you can't seem to understand, no matter how many times I say the same thing, here.
 
In 1887, the Sand Hill Indians compiled a list of Indians then living in the State of New Jersey, with whom they were connected by blood, by marriage, or by proximity--and, in all cases, socially.  This list was kept by the Sand Hill Indian council until 1953, when the Monmouth County band, disbanded.  Afterwards, this, subsequent lists, and all other Sand Hill Indian records were kept by one of the last council members.  When he died, all these things passed to Jim Revey, who kept them on file at the New Jersey Indian Office, from which office he administered the affairs of the Sand Hill Indians.  The 1887 list was a list of individuals, but it has never been published.  Only some of the surnames of the people on this list--along with surnames on other lists among the Sand Hill Indian records--have been published.  The sources for all this are found in published works by Jim Revey, C.A. Weslager, David Oestreicher; and, in private correspondence and phone conversations between Jim Revey and myself (and, perhaps, others).  
 
The New Jersey Indian Office was a single small office, in a building at 300 Main Street, Orange, NJ, which was maintained by Jim Revey.  He had no staff.  Its purpose was to document and provide assistance, generally, to all indigenous Indians of New Jersey, who could prove 1/4 American Indian BQ; and, to educate the public on the Indians of New Jersey.  Evelyn Stryker Lewis wrote:  "Jim was a man who took his native heritage very seriously, tirelessly working for NJ's native population through the NJ Indian Office which he manned singlehandedly and which he supported out of his own pocket. He was the state's contact in all matters of Indian reburials. He was dedicated to educating the public about Lenape history and culture and addressed thousands of school children, historical groups, and the general public over the years" (post to ASNJ List, 9 Mar 2009).  In addition to this, he administered the affairs of those Sand Hill Indians who looked on him as their leader.  Since the contents of his office were his private property, I assume it all went to his next-of-kin, sometime after his death.  The fact that he asked Sam Beeler to take on the work and chairmanship of the NJIO, did not entitle Sam Beeler to Jim's property.  Sam never occupied the office in Orange.  Regular probate procedures would dictate settlement of his estate.  So, whoever got those things, also got the 1887 list and all other Sand Hill Indian records.  Only some of the surnames on that list, and other lists, have been published--the ones in Weslager's book, and those at Sam Beeler's website.  Appeals for release of these records have fallen on deaf ears, so, the published lists and private communications with Jim are all I can tell you about these other families. (Of course, members of those families know who they are!)  Since Claire Garland is such a close family member of Jim Revey, why not ask her who has these Sand Hill Indian records?  I sent her an e-mail quite a while ago, but she never wrote back, so I didn't pursue the matter with her.  
 
I'm not going to take too much time responding to your ridiculous attempt to slight people's heritage by using hyperbolic expressions like someone's "gr gr gr gr gr gr gr gr great grandfather" was an Indian, which deliberately exaggerate the degree to which they married outside their race.  I'd wager these people have an average Indian blood quantum higher than 80% of the CNO.  Some have a lot, some have a little, but this is no different than any lineage-based federally recognized tribe.  
 
In the end, it's a matter of whose definition of Sand Hill Indian you accept.  You obviously accept Claire Garland's definition, which is fine with me.  I've layed out the case for the other definition, and I think those people have a good argument.  BTW, Sam Beeler's Sand Hill Indians also had, and have, Reevey and Dickerson members, so where does that leave this dispute?  
 
Finally, if you do believe in sovereignty, then you will allow a tribe to make up its own mind about who is or will be eligible for membership.  The federally recognized Mashantucket Pequots allow people from their neighboring unrecognized Narragansetts to join their tribe.  There is a much closer connection among the families included in Sam Beeler's Sand Hill Indians--which NEVER excluded Claire Garland's group, but invited them to join, when her folks had NO organized tribe.  She declined--which is certainly her prerogative--but, this is where the matter now stands.  I understand both arguments.  In the end, though, that means I understand why Sam Beeler's tribe calls themselves Sand Hill Indians.  If you don't understand that, by now, then I don't see how you ever will.  As I've said before, I'm satisfied that I've made the points I wanted to when I began this thread.      
 
 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 09:15:11 pm by shkaakwus »

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2009, 09:55:12 pm »
This whole subject continues to trouble me ... There is a lot of complex issues here, but staying with the most basic ....

Reply #5 on: April 11
shkaakwus
Quote
My only interests are restricted to whether or not he is an American Indian, and whether or not he is a Sand Hill Indian.
Reply #30
Shkaakwus
Quote
His personal identity does not hinge on the Sand Hill Indians being recognized by the Federal or State government.  It does hinge, in part, on whether or not the Sand Hill Indians are really Indians. 

Although Shkaakwus seems to think it's important to prove Sam Beeler is a Sand Hill Indian through his grandmother Sarah Holloway, and to prove that Sarah Holloway is a Sand Hill Indian through her Cherokee family temporarily living in the same general area, and thus being included in the Sand Hill Indian community, I notice nobody is showing where Sarah Holloway's family connects to any pre 1930  records showing they were Cherokee .  People who are aware of the problems created by the many people who make mistaken or false claims to an NDN identity , generally understand the importance of being able to verify claims, and when it comes to people claiming to be Cherokee, there seems to be agreement that some records ought to exist. 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1632.msg12756#msg12756
Reply #20
bls926
Quote
While I agree with what you've said about some of the Eastern Nations, the Cherokee are probably the most documented, censused people around. The Dawes Roll and the Baker Roll were not the first time the government counted Cherokee people. Even if you aren't enrolled today, you can find an ancestor on one of the many rolls. And if you can't, there's a problem. Can't explain it away by your folks hid out in the mountains or left the Trail. Your family should have been listed on one of the censuses taken years before the 1900's. Something to think about for all those claiming, without any documentation, a long-ago Cherokee ancestor

http://www.cornsilks.com/Dwords-wannabee.html
David Cornsilk
Quote
I often wonder how someone could be 1/8 Cherokee, which means a great grandparent was a full blood, and there be absolutely no records of that fact, while an authentic Cherokee might be 1/512 and there is literally hundreds of linear feet of documents proving it.

David Cornsilk
Quote
Wannabes claim that their ancestors "hid out" from the census takers. I say no one was even looking for their ancestors because they were not Indians. Wannabes will say "my ancestors were left off the Dawes Rolls." But then I will wonder what about the 29 other rolls that predate Dawes?

Wannabes will say "my ancestors jumped off the Trail of Tears." Which leads me to ask, "Why then, are your ancestors not listed on the Trail of Tears Roll?" Did your ancestors have an erasor and hitchhike to Washington, DC to cover their tracks and erase their own records? Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot there was a huge conspiracy to erase Indian records, LOL. But then what about the missionary records, which authentic Cherokees' ancestors appear in great numbers? Why are your ancestors NO WHERE to be found at any time in Cherokee history?

If you are a serious researcher of your family history and not a wannabe, you will state the hypothesis and then do research. When you are finished you will announce your findings. That will either be what the records say or what they do not say. If you are a wannabe, you will proclaim yourself to be an Indian no matter what the records say.

Shkaakwus clearly understands the importance of providing a lineage back to an ancestor or ancestors who were recorded as Indian  ...
 
http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=679
Ray Whritenour
Mon May 09, 2005 9:42 pm   
Quote
Since both William LittleSoldier and James Running Turtle are members of this forum, simply let each man provide his proof of Lenape ancestry. Submit a simple, unbroken lineage, here, tracing back to your Lenape ancestors. I have an account at Ancestry.com, which I will use to verify your information for the rest of us. If you can't provide the proof, nobody has any reason to believe your claims. We await your replies.

Ray Whritenour

http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=852&start=30
Ray Whritenour
Quote
Look: This seemingly endless arguing, back and forth, about who is and who is not a Lenape is, in fact, the easiest question to settle. If you're not an enrolled member of one of the past or present federally-recognized U.S. or Canadian tribes, you MUST PROVE your Lenape ancestry with documentation, by the accepted standards of genealogical research, so that others can check your claims. If you can't do this, I do NOT recognize your claim, and neither will any agency of the federal or state governments. WHAT IS SO DAMN DIFFICULT? SHOW US THE PROOF!

I see where it was mentioned that the Holloway family is listed on the 1851 Siler roll.

http://www.bluejersey.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=10298

The problem is, most families living in the US named Holloway were purely European in origin and without a verifiable lineage tracking back to a family which can be proven to include the specific individuals listed on this roll, this information is irrelevent. I don't see where the information that would make this relevent to Sarah Holloway's family has been provided ...

Is there is any lineage or lineages which connect Sarah (Holloway) Ali to a recorded Cherokee ancestor ? Is there records connecting Sarah (Holloway) Ali to the someone who can be proven to be the sibling of someone who was recorded as being Cherokee ?

This missing information is the basis of all the other claims that are being made by Beeler and his relatives . It would really help to collaberate at least part of what is being claimed, if this basic genealogical information could be provided , including sources like birth and death records housed in the New Jersey State Archives, census records, deeds or obituaries , which track Sarah Hollway's family back to some verifiable family members listed on the aformentioned Cherokee rolls.   

One other thing that isn't being mentioned much, is that Sarah Holloway's married name was Ali, meaning her children would have normally been surnamed Ali and not Holloway .

Sarah Ali's passing is recorded in the public information found in the social security death index search found on the LDS family history website. The birth date of this Sarah Ali is the same as the birth date in the Sand Hill membership papers, so presumably this is the same person. 

Quote
Sarah ALI     
          Birth Date:    21 Feb 1900
          Death Date:    Feb 1969
          Social Security Number:     (deleted )
          State or Territory Where Number Was Issued:     New Jersey
 
     Death Residence Localities
          ZIP Code:    07513
          Localities:     Paterson, Passaic, New Jersey
     Peoples Park, Passaic, New Jersey

Although the present Paterson Sand Hill groups leader Carroll Holloway is said to be Sam Beeler's cousin, and papers identifying Sarah Holloway and her daughter Romena Ali and her grandson Sam Beeler as Sand Hill Indians are being used to substantiate Holloway's claims to being a Sand Hill Indian, it isn't clear how he would connect to Sarah (Holloway) Ali, as his surname is not Ali. Depending how far back he connects with the Holloway line , his lines of descent may be very different than Sarah Holloway's.

Some explanation Carroll Holloway's line of descent would also be helpful to people wishing to verify the most basic part of the claims being made..
 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 10:00:18 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2009, 09:31:25 pm »
I don't mean to suggest Sam Beeler is responsible if other people post incorrect information about him, but some of what has been posted by Shkaakwus does make me wonder ....

http://www.woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=9440

#3 Sep-18-2007
sschkaak
Quote
I was very good friends with Jim Revey, for many years.  I have a copy of Jim's own signed certification of Sam Beeler as a Sand Hill Indian, through Sam's grandmother, Sarah Holloway.  Through another lineage, Sam is an enrolled citizen of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.  His Certified Degree of Indian Blood is 3/4.

If Sam Beeler does in fact have a CDIB of 3/4 , this 3/4 would have to be well documented ...
 
http://cita.chattanooga.org/bia/cdibfedreg.htm

Quote
SUMMARY: This rule will establish documentation requirements and standards for filing, processing, and issuing a Certificate of Degree of Indian or Alaska Native Blood (CDIB) by the Bureau of Indian Affairs (Bureau).
(con...)

Quote
You must show your relationship to an enrolled member(s) of a federally recognized Indian tribe, whether it is through your birth mother or birth father, or both. A federally recognized Indian tribe means an Indian or Alaska Native tribe, band, nation, pueblo, village, or community which appears on the list of recognized tribes published in the Federal Register by the Secretary of the Interior (25 U.S.C. ß 479a-1(a).

     
Quote
Certified Copy of a Birth Certificate is required to establish your relationship to a parent(s) enrolled with a federally recognized Indian tribe(s).
    *

      If your parent is not enrolled with a federally recognized Indian tribe, a Certified Copy of your parent's Birth or Death Certificate is required to establish your parent's relationship to an enrolled member of a federally recognized Indian tribe(s). If your grandparent(s) were not enrolled members of a federally recognized Indian tribe(s), a Certified Copy of the Birth or Death Certificate for each grandparent who was the child of an enrolled member of a federally recognized Indian tribe is required.
    *


      Certified copies of Birth Certificates, Delayed Birth Certificates, and Death Certificates may be obtained from the State Department of Health or Bureau of Vital Statistics in the State where the person was born or died.

When I have asked about how Sarah Holloway connects to the Sand Hill clan, Shkaakwus has repeatedly explained that Indians living in New Jersey were rarely mentioned in the government records - however these same records are what is required to get a CDIB . 

Reply #58
Quote
I'm afraid the documentation you require is probably non-existent, for the most part.  Census enumerators were instructed to list the "color or race" of people "by observation," until 1960.  And, no federal census prior to 1930 is available to the public until 2012, when the 1940 census is made public.  It was an extremely rare instance when they listed Indians, who were citizens of the United States (as opposed to enrolled reservation Indians), as "Indians," in the eastern states. Other records weren't much better.

So if Beeler can document this line , maybe that means Sarah Holloways family moved to New Jersey shortly before she was born, and they came from somewhere where they were well documented as Cherokee ?

As the Sarah Holloways family is being emphasized as Beeler's identity , I am guessing ( maybe wrongly ) that Sarah Holloway is one of the ancestors who is being claimed to be part of this 3/4 , and from what is reported below, it also sounds like she is being claimed to have been close to full blood.

http://www.sussex.edu/newsandevents/2003/11/200311073.htm

Quote
Dr. Beeler is a Native New Jersey Indian raised by full blood traditionalists and has practiced the ancient Keetoowah beliefs since childhood.

 If I am understanding this correctly , that means Sarah born 1900 would have 8 great grandparents born about 1810 ( using the average of 30 years between generations ) and using an average 50 year life expectancy, this would mean these 8 individuals would likely be for the most part alive from 1810 - 1860. There would also be another 16 individuals who were Sarah Holloways gr great grandparents who would have been alive on average from 1780 - 1830.

There is lots of records existing for this time period of both Cherokee and non Cherokee people , so whether all these people lived in a recognized Cherokee community , and then Sarah's parents moved to New Jersey , or whether these people all lived in a New Jersey community , where Shkaakwus suggests they would not have been recorded as Indians, - or whether some of these people lived somewhere in between -  a good porportion of the facts about these ancestors of Sarah Holloway and their siblings was almost certainly recorded in records made between 1800 and 1900.

I do understand that it's possible some people, in some situations who have distant ancestry may not be able to document this, but except for adoptions, I really doubt anyone with enough Cherokee descent to claim they ARE Cherokee, would be unable to document at least part of this. This is just my opinion based on what I have seen and read, and it may be wrong, but there is a lot of evidence to support this conclusion and I have seen practically nothing of substance to disprove it.

In other areas I have seen families that were wrongly recorded or even lied about their origins to the record makers , but what I notice is if you look at all the siblings in a 3 generation period, it can be proven they are lying because the stories of where they came from and their race tend to be different, or can be proven not to be true through other records .  Also the stories tend to vary from census to census or record to record. And at least as far as i have seen some of these family member do occasionaly get recorded as being Indian . So yes people did sometimes lie, but if they did this can usually be proven.

On the other hand a lot of people seem to honestly believe they are of Native descent who aren't.

Based on what studies of mt and Y DNA in the general population of the Eastern US , suprisingly few people report unexpectedly finding the mtDNA of an undocumented Native ancestor who assimilated and "hid". On the other hand there is an astounding number of people claiming a full blood Cherokee great grandma who's claim is not supported by mtDNA which proves a European line.

I don't mean to be sarcastic, but the truth is, Sarah Holloway didn't just materilaize out of nowhere. A detailed explanation of her recorded family background between 1800 -1900 ( whether that shows her family as Cherokee or not ) would really help other researchers investigate and decide if what is being claimed about this family is even possible.

As Shkaakwus got banned from posting unless he agrees to stay within Al's guidelines, I know he may have a problem posting a reply. If Shkaakwus wants to PM  me to provide this information I would post it for him or maybe one of his friends from the woodlands indians forum ,who also are members here ,could post this for him or send it to me to post.

I do have sympathy for people of Native descent who fall through the cracks, and I am honestly interested in investigating the claims there was a hidden Native community which retained it's identity in that area. I'm sorry to keep going on about this,  but as what I am asking isn't getting answered I keep thinking maybe I didn't explain what I was asking clearly enough. I'm sorry if I have used too many words and i failed to get to the point. I hope this makes what I am trying to ask, clearer.
--------------
edited to remove the comment below from a place it didn't fit in well with the general train of thought.  I still can't figure out where to put this ...  :-[
Quote
So I don't know if I am misunderstanding what Shkaakwus was claiming. If Beeler doesn't have a CDIB of 3/4 I wonder where Shkaakwus got this wrong information.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 05:34:50 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline tree hugger

  • Posts: 25
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2009, 04:50:25 pm »
Quote
As Shkaakwus got banned from posting unless he agrees to stay within Al's guidelines, I know he may have a problem posting a reply. If Shkaakwus wants to PM  me to provide this information I would post it for him or maybe one of his friends from the woodlands indians forum ,who also are members here ,could post this for him or send it to me to post.

Hi Moma P

Since Shkaakwus was banned, I don't think Al would be fond of any of us posting his replies for him. You are welcome to copy this and your other questions over to Woodland, on the Beeler threads. Hope that helps.

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2009, 06:09:43 pm »
Hi Tree hugger

Thanks for responding. It is a bit awkward communicating when Shkaawus isn't willing to edit attacking personal comments out of his otherwise informative posts. Personally I try to err on the side of caution as I don't like being edited - but that means you all miss some really nasty but very witty one liners .  ;D

I'm probably overly paranoid , but I also err on the side of caution when it comes to keeping clues to my identity private. I wouldn't feel safe to join the woodlands forum as that would give you access to some information which could seriously endanger me or my family if it got into the wrong hands. I'm not saying I think anyone over there might intentionally do something to hurt me but I don't expect people to necessarily have the foresite to make sure not to reveal my personal information. Especially if those people are on a different side of an issue than i am and get annoyed with me.

Maybe Al can make a suggestion on how to do this .

Or if you don't feel like i am dragging you into something , I guess you could get the basic information from Shkaawus and post just the facts without any commentary on anybody's annoying personality .   ;D   ;D   ;D

Personally I don't care if Shkaawus is rude. If there is no truth in what he says or it is distorted it probably just makes him look bad. But I do respect why Al wants people to be polite and refrain from personal attacks as what we all try to do here is difficult enough without that sort of diversions.

I hope we can find a way to get the information Shkaawus may have, included in this thread. Thanks again for responding.

Offline tree hugger

  • Posts: 25
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2009, 07:27:29 pm »
Understood. I've sent you a pm, I don't want to take this thread off topic.  :)

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2009, 09:27:26 pm »
Hi Tree Hugger

Thanks for the PM.

Looks like I am stuck . I guess if Shkaawus feels it's important to get the facts out there he could always do as Al suggested

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=848.195

Reply #205
educatedindian
Quote
Banned from posting but not from the forum. Should he wish to apologize for his behavior the ban will be lifted.

If he did this he would then be able to disagree with me , he would just have to do it within certain boundaries. ( and none of his replies to me were a problem anyways )
 
If not, this sounds like Shkaakwus can still send PMs , so if Shkaawus wanted to send me a PM with just the genealogical facts, I would be willing to post this for him . I guess whatever he chooses all depends how important he feels it is to get the facts out there.

For that matter it looks like Sam Beeler has a face book page
so I suppose he is perfectly capable of registering here and answering these questions for himself.

(edited to remove a link to the wrong face book page)

I am thinking some of the people Beeler has taking his side in this may be doing him more harm than good.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 10:55:33 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline tree hugger

  • Posts: 25
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2009, 10:14:36 pm »
You're welcome.

I'll try not to take this off topic. That link you posted to facebook is in no way this Sam Beeler.

I can't, nor won't speak for Shkaawus. Perhaps you could get one of your friends to repost your questions there, where he can answer freely? Just a thought.

Edit to add: it might be a good idea to take this kid's facebook link off.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 10:35:28 pm by tree hugger »

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2009, 10:53:09 pm »
Thanks for pointing that out. I will remove it. I did find a Sam Beeler in North jersey listed on face book a while back , with a friend called Medicine Crow. I didn't really check it out at the time and I thought that was the same one, but I guess not.

Offline wolfhawaii

  • Posts: 293
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2009, 05:20:38 am »
I checked my "Dawes Rolls Plus" by Blankenship; no Holloway, Beeler, or Alli names on there. If Sarah Holloway was born in NJ in 1900, from what line of descent would Sam Beeler be enrollable in CNO? The Dawes Roll is the pertinent roll for CNO membership and was taken between 1898 and 1907; very few people who did not live in Indian Territory (Present day Oklahoma) were enrolled. With all of the documents posted on other sites relating to his Sand Hill status, if he were a 3/4 blood enrolled Cherokee all this discussion over his enrollment would be settled by posting his card.

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2009, 01:23:05 pm »
Hi Wolfhawaii

Actually what would put an end to this stage of the discussion would be genealogical facts on Sarah ( Holloway) Ali's genealogical background which can be verified through independent sources.

Scans of cards or papers don't put an end to anything. For example there was scans of letters from the Eastern Band Cherokee tribal office saying Lawernce Sampson wasn't enrolled there , which Lawernce Sampson brushed off as fakes . And then there is the tribal ID Brooke Medicine Eagle scanned as proof she was enrolled in the Crow tribe ,which lots of people say is faked.

The other thing is that it seems to me that NAFPS generally isn't geared towards researching peoples claims to be NDN or how much, unless this is being used to make some claims to gain the public trust. I can see where Sarah Holloway's lineage is being used this way but I can't see where Beeler is using his other lineages in this way . So except for the apparent contradiction of Shkaakwus's statements that  Beeler has a CDIB of 3/4 which requires government records to acquire, and his other comments , that the Sand Hill Indians were mostly undocumented in government records, trying to verify  the other claims seems to be kind of a side issue.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 01:26:57 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline wolfhawaii

  • Posts: 293
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2009, 04:10:19 pm »
MP, you make valid points; I would like to add that an enrollment card can be checked, and it is a pillar of Schackuwwuus' (whatever. sp) and Beeler's claims of cultural authenticity. Similarly, as you noted, the NKS is used to bolster the claims of the Holloway/formerly Beeler Sandhill organization to authenticity. There are some concerns i have regarding that organization and its alleged history. Some of the names used in Beeler's /Writenhour's claim of the history of NKS were actual Oklahoma and NC Cherokees; where is the evidence of their involvement. I am short of time but will post more later.

Offline tree hugger

  • Posts: 25
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2009, 08:01:22 pm »
Quote
As Shkaakwus got banned from posting unless he agrees to stay within Al's guidelines, I know he may have a problem posting a reply. If Shkaakwus wants to PM  me to provide this information I would post it for him or maybe one of his friends from the woodlands indians forum ,who also are members here ,could post this for him or send it to me to post.

Hi Moma P

Since Shkaakwus was banned, I don't think Al would be fond of any of us posting his replies for him. You are welcome to copy this and your other questions over to Woodland, on the Beeler threads. Hope that helps.

Hello again!


I just wanted to let you know that Shkaakwus is not able to use the PM feature here as well. I just wanted it to be clear that he can not receive or respond to Private messages.

Wolfhawaii, why don't you repost the questions? The invitation is open to you too.

After the posting the other night, I'm finding it hard to believe any research posted.

I assure you, you can post there unedited.

Hope this helps in some way.

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Sam Beeler
« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2009, 09:22:56 pm »
Hi Tree Hugger

Thanks for letting us know Shkaakwus can't use the PM function .

-----edited to add

if Wolfhawaii or someone else wants to go over to the Woodlands forum with these questions ,that would be very helpful, but
-------------
Can Shkaakwus read whats posted over here? If he can , why does anyone else has to take the questions and post them over on Woodlands? If Shkaakwus wants to answer them, he can read the questions here,  copy them and post them in woodlands , and answer them however he wants over there. Then someone could copy whatever facts he provides ( probably minus personal comments ) and post that over here . A link can be provided to the original. That way Shkaakwus can say whatever he feels he needs to ,and if people want more than what whoever copies it considers to be the  straight facts, they can go there and see whatever he said in it's entirety.

Tree Hugger
Quote
After the posting the other night, I'm finding it hard to believe any research posted.

What post "the other night"  are you referring to ?   It's not clear what you are saying here or who's facts or research you are saying you now have a hard time believing. I'm guessing you are wondering about some of the information someone in particular presented as factual.

I agree it's always good to try to verify the central facts,  when people use these facts to support an important conclusion .
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 09:55:07 pm by Moma_porcupine »