Author Topic: advice 4 critics of NAFPS  (Read 4166 times)

Offline Moma_porcupine

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advice 4 critics of NAFPS
« on: July 26, 2007, 03:49:30 pm »
It's hard to imagine anyone wants to sound as foolish as many of the people who post here do , so I thought maybe a thread with some advice for our critics might be helpful.

Before people jump in with accusing people posting here of being extremist , fundamentalist , hateful and judgmental and lacking authority to make a distinction between a fraud and a nonfraud , I would suggest they take the time to read what Native people , Elders and Spiritual leaders have had to say about these things.

The articles in the links below are probably a good place to start , if people aren't familiar with cultural norms in indigenous communities.
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm

http://www.ammsa.com/buffalospirit/February-2000/adviceonpowwowtrail.html
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edited to update a dead link

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/CulInfo/FAQ/83/Default.aspx

http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/News/News.aspx?StoryID=2389

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What people need to ask themselves is ;

Have the recognized Spiritual leaders who live in the tribal community that maintains the Native traditions that are being used or claimed , said the behavior is wrong , damaging , or a corruption of the true ways ?

If the recognized Spiritual leaders in Native communities have condemed the same behaviors that are labeled as "fraud" here in NAFPS , and people disagree with these authorities , understand that we DO have a right to support the Spiritual leaders who are selected by the indiginous communities where they live. We have no obligation to in any way to support or recognize those who claim to be Native Spiritual leaders who are self proclaimed , or who are recognized by people who don't know enough about true native culture to make informed decisions.  These self proclaimed leaders are often delusional or power hungry or outright con artists , and can be dangerous to the well being of anyone who becomes involved with them.

If someone wants to dispute the guidelines we use to define who is , and who is not a fraud ,  they should be prepared to name at least 4 Elders who are recognized by the tribal community which maintains these traditions , who say the specific behavior these people are engaged in is OK.

If people can't do this ,  assupmtions of entitlement to whatever it is they are imagining they are entitled to , will be seen as a violation of basic indigenous rights , part of which is stated in this draft of a UN declaration , below  ; 
http://www.cwis.org/drft9329.html

Article 7
Quote
Indigenous peoples have the collective and individual right not to be subjected to ethnocide and cultural genocide, including prevention of and redress for:

 (a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;

Article 12
Quote
Indigenous peoples have the right to practise and revitalize their cultural traditions and customs. This includes the right  to maintain, protect and develop the past, present and future manifestations of their cultures, such as archaeological and historical sites, artifacts, designs, ceremonies, technologies and visual and performing arts and literature, as well as the  right to the restitution of cultural, intellectual, religious and spiritual property taken without their free and informed consent or in violation of their laws, traditions and customs.

Article 13
Quote
Indigenous peoples have the right to manifest, practise, develop and teach their spiritual and religious traditions, customs and ceremonies; the right to maintain, protect, and have access in privacy to their religious and cultural sites; the right to the use and control of ceremonial objects; and the right to the repatriation of human remains.

States shall take effective measures, in conjunction with the indigenous peoples concerned, to ensure that indigenous sacred places, including burial sites, be preserved, respected and protected.

Article 19
Quote
Indigenous peoples have the right to participate fully, if they so choose, at all levels of decision-making in matters which may affect their rights, lives and destinies through representatives chosen by themselves in accordance with their own procedures, as well as to maintain and develop their own indigenous decision-making institutions.

The belief that people should be entitled to use the cultural property of indigenous peoples against the wishes of indigenous peoples , should not be treated with respect. The fact that people posting in NAFPS actively oppose people who ignore the basic human rights of indiginous peoples , does not make us a hate group or a bunch of extremeists.

Even if people can show a few recognized Elders agree with their activities , they should understand that if other recognized Elders disagree , while these activities may not be considered a fraud , they still will be controversial and people may still disagree. Even within cultural norms there is gray areas and disagreements.

The next thing that is important to realize , is people get listed as a fraud for a number of specific reasons. The reasons I have seen people get posted here as a fraud are as follows ;

Advertising and charging for Ceremonies , or Spiritual or cultural teachings which the Spiritual authorities of the tribe these cultural practices are maintained by , say should not be commercialized , will get people listed as a fraud.

Claiming what is being taught is a Native tradition , ( Mohawk , Cherokee , Lakota , Hopi wisdom ect ect ect ) when it isn't, and the person just made this up , or has partly made this up , will get someone labeled as a fraud .

Claiming to be some sort of position of authority , when this authority is not recognized by the persons Native community will get a person labeled as a fraud .

Using knowledge of Native ways to obtain sexual favors will get someone listed as a fraud .

Claiming to be a Native charity and being legally found to be using too large a portion the funds for personal use , will get someone listed as a fraud .

Our critics need to understand that someone who may listed as a fraud for claiming something as Cherokee ways which isn't , may be a nice friend , helpful in some ways , honest in some ways , and knowledgeable in some ways .  If you think about it , even violent criminals are often reported as being kind and considerate to the people who were associated with them .

So being listed as a fraud for a specific reason doesn't necessarily mean that the person is a fraud in every way.  All it means is , they are a fraud or abusive in the way stated and because of that they may be dangerous . Like a car may have 3 good tires , the one flat tire is still going to be a problem .

The research needed catagory is just what it says . It just means , to be safe people should not accept any claims at face value and research is needed . 

If people want to object to something posted here , it would be helpful for their own credibility if they made sure they have their facts straight , and first figured out what it is they want to object to and why .

If people disagree with something that has been said about a specific person or group, first I would suggest reading the whole thread at least twice and make sure they understand what was said and the context that it was said in .

Often what you will read in one thread is only part of the information so the next step would be to use the search bar at the top of the NAFPS index page to see if a search on key words and names bring up more information .

I would also recomend a Google search on the same names and keywords to see what else is out there .

Having read all the information , do you feel someone is accusing the person or group of a specific behavior which this person or group has not done ? Are the basic facts presented here incorrect ?

If after carefully reviewing everything , somone still disagrees with something someone said , it is really helpful if they briefly quote what it is they disagree with , and the name of the thread or threads the offending words are found in, and state exactly what it is they disagree with , so people understand what is being objected to .

The large majority of information posted in NAFPS comes from what people advertise about themselves on line . I notice very little of what is disputed is the actual facts of what people are doing . The disagreements are almost always around general principals , and people who feel what people ARE doing ,should not be considered " fraud" . ( even if Native communities strongly feel it is wrong )

Quite simply when people lie or ignore the wishes and rights of Indiginous people to protect their own culture and systems of authorization , these people defame themselves with their own bad behavior . Most of the people who object to what is said here are in some way personally invested in protecting a fraud .

Just my own understanding after having watched what happenes here a couple years . Hope this helps people better understand what is being done here .

Maybe other people can add to this .



« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 11:17:34 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline piya

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Re: advice 4 critics of NAFPS
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 05:31:28 pm »
Thank you for that MP, very well written
To Old To Die Young